The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience


Comments posted to The Chicago Tribune Forum
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chicago_Tribune.html


The Chicago Tribune.
Baha'i rift: Baha'is upset with Orthodox Baha'i Faith May 18, 2009

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/may/18/local/chi-bahai-18-may18 (original link)

Full text original also available through:

WORLDWIDE RELIGIOUS NEWS
http://wwrn.org/articles/30946/?&place=north-america&section=bahai

TimesDispatch
Richmond Times-Dispatch
Rift in Baha’i faith becomes grounds for lawsuit
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/lifestyles/health_med_fit/article/I-BAHA0526_20090604-232004/271998/


November 23, 2010 >>> Opinion Handed Down by US 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, Case No. 08-2306
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/US_7th_Circuit_Court_of_Appeals_11-23-2010.html


Sometime in early June 2011, the discussion thread on Topix.net, based on a Chicago Tribune article, was deleted with over 4,600 messages on the Baha’i lawsuit against several Bahai denominations. Many participants suspect the Haifan Baha’is are involved in its demise. Notice the large number of other older Baha'i threads on Topix that are still included. Haifans have done this kind of thing for many decades, on and off line, rewriting history... so the court case that has been won is a very historic victory.

I saved and repost below all of my messages that I think of as important to preserve knowledge of the issue and the discussion on Topix, because I've seen the Haifans do this consistently over the years, having knocked repeatedly my own website off the Net, early on, way back into the late 1990s, as with other forums, rewriting history. Obviously, the loss of over 4,600 messages from various points of view, and with participants from several Bahai denominations, is quite a revision, to say the least. The Hafians have been desperate throughout the proceedings to keep all information off the Internet about the lawsuit. Initially, there were numerous appearances of the Chicago Tribune article all over the newspaper Internet sites, but most of them have also been deleted, as was one comment critical of the Wilmette Baha'is. I preserved the links to the pages on Topix below.

PDF copies of pages on Topix documenting nearly 4,600 (4,626+) posts to the forum, from Google's cache copies as of July 9, 2011:

Baha'i rift_ Baha'is upset with Orthodox Baha'i Faith - Topix1
Baha'i rift_ Baha'is upset with Orthodox Baha'i Faith - Topix6
Baha'i rift_ Baha'is upset with Orthodox Baha'i Faith - Topix215 (documents 4,626+)
Baha'i rift_ Baha'is upset with Orthodox Baha'i Faith - Topix229
Baha'i rift_ Baha'is upset with Orthodox Baha'i Faith - Topix230

The above discussion forum seems to have been replaced with http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/bahai-world-faith

I invite the reader to reflect on the nature of the Haifan Baha'i denomination. After the US Federal Courts ruled against it THREE TIMES, Wilmette Baha'is appear to have taken over or destroyed the Topix Forum that Bahais of several other denominations had used for over three years to discuss the lawsuit against them. This type of fanatical tactic is exactly what Haifan Baha'is have done for many decades, as extensively documented on this website and elsewhere on the Internet. That the Wilmette Baha'i nsa would demonstrate such unmitigated contempt for the ruling of the Federal Court system, probably through Baha'is working in one way or another under the "Continental Board of Counsellors" for "protection and propagation," should give thoughtful people reason for serious concern. For similar incidents:
AOL - bahai Censorship
Soc.Religion.Bahai
Beliefnet.com
Soulpancake
Huffington Post... etc., etc., etc....

Another reprint of the Chicago Tribune article:
BAHA'I_RIFT_BAHA'IS_UPSET_WITH_ORTHODOX_BAHA

Topix - Baha'i Rift - Chicago Tribune - Forum (click link for original)

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post19

I applaud the Chicago Tribune for allowing their readers to read and decide for themselves what they think about the lawsuit by the Baha'is of Wilmette against other US citizens, which is essentially seeking to deprive other Baha'is of their Constitutional right to religious freedom and conscience.

It should be noted that Judge Amy St Eve, considered an outstanding legal mind by her peers, ruled against the Baha'is of Wilmette in the lower court. In the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, Judge Diane S. Sykes stated to the lawyer for the Wilmette Baha'is that their attempt to deprive other Bahai denominations of essentially their religious freedom and liberty, quote, "Clearly raises some Constitutional concerns." Similarly, Judge William J. Bauer shared a similar concern when he repeatedly asked the lawyer for the Wilmette Baha'is what would be the outcome for members of the Reform Bahai Faith.

It is fortunate for Bahais of all persuasions, and our country, that we have judges capable of penetrating the obfuscation and going right to the heart of the matter. Anyone interested in hearing Judge Sykes and Judge Bauer's own recorded words in the Court room may listen to a 3-minute mp3 clip at the following link. http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/USCourt_Appeals09.htm . (There's a 30-minute clip also)

Despite the claims of many here, numbers of adherents are not important. The truth is important. Only the individual can decide that for him or herself. Members of the Orthodox Baha'i Faith and other Bahai denominations have followed their consciences and are entitled to their beliefs, before God, and before the legal bar of justice, and woe unto our country should that ever change.

While the Reform Bahai Faith was not a party to the lawsuit, it was slandered or mentioned in court in both lawsuits. Reform Bahais believe the purported will and testament of 1921 is a fraudulent document, despite both Wilmette and Orthodox Baha'is thinking otherwise, and find it sad that the Wilmette Baha'is especially have chosen to sue other denominations, which they also did as early as the 1940s against early Reform Bahais Julie Chanler and Ahmad Sohrab.

To our minds, the oppressive and dictatorial actions they have taken against their own followers for decades, such as requiring or pressuring wives to divorce their husbands (medieval and appalling as it may sound), demonstrates emphatically that they have strayed very far from the Example of universality set by Abdul-Baha when he was in Chicago in 1912.

This lawsuit is merely the latest for those interested enough to examine the truth independently for themselves, via the websites here linked to.

Reform Bahai Faith
http://www.reformbahai.org

The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship

2nd post:
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post23

[QUOTE who="Janice"]According to Abdul-Baha "religion must be the cause of unity, harmony and agreement among mankind. If it be the cause of discord and hostility, if it leads to sparation and conflict, the absence of religion would be preferable in the world."
[/QUOTE]

Which is precisely why the fraudulent will and testament of 1921, purported to be Abdul-Baha's, has produced so much suffering and misery as that of husbands and wives required to shun one another over religious "truth" and similar appalling abominations within the Wilmette Baha'i denomination, the vast majority of whom have been deceived into believing it's a legitimate document.

Dr. C. Ainsworth Mitchell, chief document expert at the British Museum, judged it a fraud in 1930, yet it's essentially the fraudulent document which is a the core of why the Wilmette Baha'is are suing and seeking to destroy other Bahai denominations:
http://www.reformbahai.org/CAMitchell_Report.html

Reform Bahai Faith
http://www.reformbahai.org

 

3rd post:
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post26

[QUOTE who="Marcello"]I was once very attracted to the "mainstream" Baha'i Faith, and even attended the local Baha'i center fairly regularly. But the more I learned about the authoritarian structure of the faith, the more disillusioned I became. This lawsuit only confirms to me that something has gone very wrong with the hierarchy of the Baha'i faith. The inspiring message of Baha'u'llah is now subservient to the political dogmatism of a misguided bureaucracy. What a shame. [/QUOTE]


Unfortunately, I believe you're right about the "political dogmatism of a misguided bureaucracy." The good news is that Abdul-Baha's supposed will and testament of 1921 is a fraudulent document, independently judged as such with the scientific methods of forensic science in 1930. Dr. C. Ainsworth Mitchell's original Report is deposited with the Library of Congress and available at this link:
http://www.reformbahai.org/CAMitchell_Report.html

Ruth White and Ahamad Sohrab, early reform Bahais during the 1930s and '40s, wrote several books that fully discuss what went wrong, subverting the universality of Baha'u'llah's Teachings into a corrupt money and power seeking organization. Their works are also available on the Reform Bahai Faith website.

The sad thing is that most Baha'is have been brainwashed and deceived into believing Shoghi Effendi was appointed by Abdul-Baha as a "guardian" and thereby taught not to think and investigate for themselves. As Professor Juan Cole once said, "It's a perfect racket."

We must not despair, though. God has preserved the knowledge, down through the decades, about what Abdul-Baha actually taught, as the Center of the Covenant. His vision is a free and open Bahai Cause, which is still alive, and growing.

Bahai regards,

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

4th:
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post38

The response by members of the Wilmette Bahai denomination here to this article by The Chicago Tribune ought to give any thoughtful person reason for pause and reflection. Below are a few excerpts for historical context.

Many of the comments demonstrate the truth of what Professor Juan Cole of the University of Michigan observed way back in 1998 in his book Modernity and the Millennium: The Genesis of the Baha'i Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East, Columbia University Press, writing that the Baha'i administration has increasingly come under the control of fundamentalists, "stressing scriptural literalism ... theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values" (196).

Similarly he wrote online in 1998,“The very technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified threats of declaring him or her a CB [Covenant Breaker (heretic)] to silence the individual, and if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the gullibility of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket.”

Professor Juan Cole, in February 23, 1999:
"There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they will admit to being "Baha'i" at all). Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith. The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon them to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do not fall silent. With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech about the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You will note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long-term heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose with the facts,' and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused of all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been backbitten by them. This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute.

Further insightful comment from Juan Cole and others at
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm

I suggest recalling the words of Judge Diane S. Sykes, to the lawyer for the Wilmette Baha'is in their attempt to deprive other Bahai denominations of essentially their religious freedom and liberty, quote, "Clearly raises some Constitutional concerns." Again, the 3-minute Mp3 file of her actually making this statement in the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals may be found at
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/USCo...

It’s long past time that the people of Chicago and the United States should know the Wilmette Baha’is for the fanatical and oppressive organization it actually is. The Chicago Tribune is to be applauded for allowing its readers to decide for themselves.

The Reform Bahai Faith
http://www.ReformBahai.org

 

5th
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post108

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, MI
Reply »|Report Abuse|#108Monday May 25

Long suppressed by Bahais of other denominations,
Reform Bahais have returned to, and renewed,
Abdul-Baha's authentic 1912 Covenant.

www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html

Of the several Bahai denominations, the Reform Bahai Faith is the only denomination that follows Abdul-Baha'is authentic Covenant, and not what many have believed is the fraudulent will and testament of 1921.

Frederick Glaysher
Reform Bahai Faith
http://www.reformbahai.org

 

6th
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post109
Wilmette Bahai Shunning
Rochester, MI
Reply »|Report Abuse|#109Monday May 25

The reporter Manya A. Brachear mentions an appalling fact, entirely glossed over by every Wilmette Baha'i poster to this thread: "Goldberg's wife was encouraged to divorce her husband."

What Ms. Brachear doesn't report is that Wilmette Baha'is who refuse to "shun" their spouse are themselves in turn shunned from the denomination.

It's difficult to think of a more spiritually sick practice than this one that the fraudulent will and testament has produced, carefully hidden from new Baha'is and the general American public.

For the stories and comments of about dozen people who have experienced or witnessed the effects of Baha'i shunning, see Shunning > Menu http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Shunning.htm

Frederick Glaysher
The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/

 

7th
Reform Bahai Faith
Join the community
Rochester, MI
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post152

Janet wrote:
Shame on all of us ... Here we are arguing and sueing each other over who's in charge... Once again I urge all those who might come across this note to pray for their hearts to be open and for detachement and to offer that same prayer for all living beings. God will guide us....

Friends,

I urge you to consider that all this contention is further rotten fruit of the fraudulent will and testament of 1921, driven by a hunger for power and control, proven a forgery by modern forensic science in 1930.

Reform Bahais have returned to, and renewed, Abdul-Baha's authentic 1912 Covenant, an open, sane, simple, moderate document, preserving the dignity and freedom of the individual in community, advancing no scheme of theocracy and triumphalism, but God's loving Covenant for His creation, in this Day and Time, as Interpreted by the Center of the Covenant.

http://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html

To speak with or invite a Reform Bahai speaker to your community, see our website.

To attended a Reform Bahai Fireside, see http://www.reformbahai.org/fireside_meetings.html#fireside

Reform Bahai Faith
http://www.reformbahai.org

 

8th
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post168
Religious Liberty
#169

All of the many points of view here dramatically demonstrate for the people of Chicago that, despite the shameless lie of the Wilmette Baha'is before Judge Amy St. Eve in its nsa-memo.pdf in 2006, claiming, while distorting the earlier 1966 court's decision, "No question of religious liberty is involved." In fact, the lawsuit is ESSENTIALLY about religious liberty. See near top of page 2:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/archives/nsa-memo.pdf

Judge Amy St. Eve wisely perceived it as such, despite all the obfuscation. God willing, the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals will do so likewise, and thereby set aright for American citizens what a forged will and testament has created.

95 Theses - On Bahai Liberty - Articles - Abdul-Baha's Covenant
The Reform Bahai Faith
www.ReformBahai.org

 

9th
#180
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post180
amishindian wrote:
"Fred, having been an unenrolled believer in Bahaullah for the last 29 years and never been a member of any other Bahai group other than the Haifa one, I am not planning on joining any group including the Reform Bahais. Still I appreciate what you are doing. My days of contention on Bahai issues are over."

Dear AmishIndian,

Thank you for your appreciative words.

If you don't mind my saying so, there seems to me to be two misconceptions underlying the thinking you express.

First, the very notion of "unenrolled" plays into the hands of the putative organization that "enrolls," as though it were the legitimate one by its very existence. The "unenrolled" remain controlled by, marginalized, and subordinated to the Baha'i denomination they imagine they're leaving or avoiding the taint thereof. In fact, "unenrolled" Bahais are playing into the hands of the organization that dominates and controls believers in Baha'u'llah through its fraudulent will and testament. The logical step for the "unenrolled" is to understand the implications of Abdul-Baha's own Intepretation that the Bahai Cause cannot be "organized." The irony is that they ARE attempting to follow the actual Teaching of Abdul-Baha without fully recognizing its implications, which is what Reform Bahais are doing and seeking the meaning of, the moderate organization he implied and taught.

Second, the notion of "contention" seems to conceive of religion as though it alone of all human endeavours and fields of activity should be free of healthy debate and exchange of opinions. Abdul-Baha stated "The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions." Why should religion be any different? Similar to the common allegations from prevailing culture, the atheist debates, if you will, etc., in modern society, as in the academic world and so forth, ALL fields of human exchange follow the standard of Abdul-Baha--He does not imagine an utopian world free of clash and conflict, nor should we. The issue is the "shining spark of truth," arrived at only through the exchange of views and individual thought, prayer, and struggle. Totalitarianism, censorship, etc., are not the way to achieve unity, but uniformity and suppression, according to the Teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha.

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher

The Reform Bahai Faith
www.ReformBahai.org

 

talk religion bahai
Rochester, MI
#189
Monday Jun 1

Quinn is quite right about the manner in which many have approached talk.religion.bahai
i.e., the same way the Haifans approach Constitutional rights as demonstrated in our courts of law....

For a distillation of Haifan tactics over the years on talk.religion.bahai, see
talk.religion.bahai on Usenet
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Usenet.htm

 

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, MI
#284Monday Jun 8
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post284

Jeffrey wrote:
"What I would like to see from the commentators here is TOLERANCE for each other. You believe your version of the Baha'is is truth, so go ahead and practice it. If you truly have faith that you are the true Baha'is, then you already know that your version of the Faith will prevail and the others will not. So what need is there to try to shun, sue, and make personal attacks?"

I think Jeffery is asking a very important question here, one members of all Bahai denominations might benefit from reflecting on.

One small, respectful caveat. I don't know that the Reform Bahai Faith "will prevail and the others will not." I *believe* that the Reform Bahai Faith is the closest Bahai denomination to Abdul-Baha's Interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Teachings, an Interpretation that brought the Bahai Cause into the modern, democratic, pluralistic world.

There is no reason, given the agreement on most of Abdul-Baha's Interpretation, that the various interpretations of the Bahai Faith that now exist cannot continue to exist and live peaceably, tolerantly, and respectfully together. The three major denominations form naturally around one's understanding and belief of what happened at Abdul-Baha's passing and subsequent developments, namely, those Baha'is who follow Shoghi Effendi as the one and only Guardian; those who believe he had a successor; those who return to Abdul-Baha's Interpretation.

Following and emulating the example of the religions of the past should be deplored by all Bahais.

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, MI
#293Monday Jun 8
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post293

Peace144 wrote: <Fredrick, your statement is a little nebulous, please explain."


Ruth White's books and British Museum document expert Dr. C. Ainsworth Mitchell's 1930 Report on the fraudulent will and testament that was passed off on the Bahai community as Abdul-Baha's address the major issues involved. Those interested might investigate independently to the degree they wish on the Reform Bahai website, under Early Reform Bahais.

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher
Reform Bahai Faith
http://www.reformbahai.org

 

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, MI
#318
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post318

Reform Bahai Faith wrote:
"There is no reason, given the agreement on most of Abdul-Baha's Interpretation, that the various interpretations of the Bahai Faith that now exist cannot continue to exist and live peaceably, tolerantly, and respectfully together."

Jeffery wrote:
Frederick, I agree with this and thought I was actually making that point. My statement about believing that your version of the Faith would ultimately prevail was trying to communicate the notion that if you truly have faith in what you believe, then you would not be threatened by the fact that others believe differently and you would not have any need to attack the others. The reason why I think the Wilmette NSA is attacking us is because deep down they really don't believe in their version of the Faith and they are trying to keep their own members from learning the truth......

Jeffery,
I don't mean to quibble unnecessarily over words. You had used "know"; I was emphasizing "believe," a term allowing more humility. Anyway, you many be right. There's a very deep insecurity and fear and lust for power undergirding the fanaticism of the Haifans, their use of lies, distortion, and intimidation, among other reprehensible tactics. Their interpretation of the Bahai Cause cannot but evoke comparisons with the worst of modern Utopians.
The sad thing is, from my point of view, they've damaged, confused, and ruined so many innocent lives, as the 300 plus messages here demonstrate, those really guilty of the exploitation sitting smugly out of sight.

Fortunately, one's freedom of conscience is God-given and not dependent on them, nor on any US court of law.

Bahai regards,
Frederick Glaysher
Reform Bahai Faith
www.ReformBahai.org

Reform Bahai Faith
Join the community
Rochester, MI
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post378

The good news is that Abdul-Baha's supposed will and testament of 1921 is a fraudulent document, independently judged as such with the scientific methods of forensic science in 1930. Dr. C. Ainsworth Mitchell's original Report is deposited with the Library of Congress and available at this link:
http://www.reformbahai.org/CAMitchell_Report.html

Ruth White and Ahamad Sohrab, early reform Bahais during the 1930s and '40s, wrote several books that fully discuss what went wrong, subverting the universality of Baha'u'llah's Teachings into a corrupt money and power-grubbing organization. Their works are also available on the Reform Bahai Faith website.

The sad thing is that most Baha'is have been deceived and brainwashed into believing Shoghi Effendi was appointed by Abdul-Baha as a "guardian" and thereby taught not to think and investigate for themselves. Hence, the spectacle here of all this overwrought reaction to Manya A. Brachear's excellent article, "Baha'i rift: Baha'is upset with Orthodox Baha'i Faith." (Remember that, that's what we're supposed to be talking about!) The comments here by Wilmette Baha'is clearly vindicate her editorial blurb and demonstrates why the real issue of the lawsuit is **religious liberty**: " Mainstream group doesn't want the name Baha'i by any other group."

Again, for those in doubt, consider that after 374 messages I may be the only voice that has acknowledged even the truth of her reporting that wives and husbands are REQUIRED to shun one another even unto DIVORCE! "Goldberg's wife was encouraged to divorce her husband."

Incidentally, looking at her article again afresh, let me correct one other thing. Wilmette Baha'is do shun people they consider heretics even in **business relations**. They just claim they don't because it's against the secular law of the land. Jeffrey, they have been knocking down your office door for legal representation, have they?

Fortunately, the fake will and testament is just that. Abdul-Baha actually taught none of this nonsense. His 1912 Covenant, immediately suppressed after his death, is as clear and simple as he intended. His vision is a free and open Bahai Cause, which is still alive, and growing.

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, MI
#409
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post409

[QUOTE who="Wahid Azal"]Sen, Mirza Badi'ullah outright names the fabricator of the will and testament of Abbas Effendi and the circumstances whereby that will was made-up, i.e. Shoghi Effendi's own mother and Abbas Effendi's daughter.
What do you know? For all your [McGlinn's] pretensions to scholarship you haven't even mastered the languages yet...
[/QUOTE]

While I don't have the time at the moment to respond fully to Sen McGlinn's mistaken attempt to discredit Dr. C. Ainsworth Mitchell's Report, I will point out briefly the key fact:

What's purported to be Abdul-Baha's will and testament has never been probated or authenticated independently of those who were and are its beneficiaries.

All of McGlinn's arguments are variations of the same old calumnies that the Haifans have always used to smear Dr. Mitchell and Ruth White, following Shoghi Effendi's despicable example. They are not any more convincing coming from a supposedly excommunicated Haifan trying to redeem himself with his masters than when Mirza Sohrab essentially did the same thing, though with more subtlety.

McGlinn concedes in his attack on Mitchell that "I am not a forensic handwriting expert" and knowing a language is irrelevant to forensic experts. His assumptions about what Mitchell did are merely that.

McGlinn's other tactics are unseemly and entirely in keeping with those widely used by members of the Haifan denomination based on the fraudulent will and testament.

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher
The Reform Bahai Faith
www.ReformBahai.org

 

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, MI
#484 Tuesday Jun 16
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post484

Larry Rowe wrote:
"Howdy Peace, Yes what Shoghi stated is clear and needs no interpretation. Note that he also clearly states: "hereditary" as well. Thing is that Remey was no more hereditary when it came to Shoghi than I am. Of course Orthodox Baha'is conveniently gloss over this fact with arguments that have no logical weight whatsover.
As well, this divisiveness to do with lineage that occurred in the Baha'i faith after Shoghi's passing was nothing new. It fact, for the Baha'i faith, it was business as usual.The Bab appointed Baha'u'llah's brother Azal to be the inheritor of his covenant after his death. Baha'u'llah not liking this decided to go it on his own and create a new religion even though it had only been 19 years since the Babi/Bayani faith had been created, hardly 1000 years!!!!
Then Baha'is begin killing Babis, according to some witness's at the behest of Baha'u'llah himself. In a court of law I doubt that Baha'u'llah would have been able to plead ignorance of his followers plans to murder several Bayanis; in fact this is not even disputed by Baha'is, as well as the fact that he did nothing to circumvent those murderous plans which made him complicit in those plans.
.... Another gaping hole in the covenant of Baha'i.
Then Shoghi dies without leaving a W&T and the Hands take control over the affairs of the Baha'i Faith even though they clearly had no authority whatsoever to do so, which Ruhiyah Khanum openly admitted:
How to assume the reins of authority, with no document to support us, other than the general theological statements about the Hands?
(Custodians, Ministry of the Custodians, p. 9)
And so it goes. A minor religious cult with no more legitimate claim to spirituality than any other minor religious cult breaks apart because of the thirst for worldly power and authority. Reminds me very much of the intrigues within the Radha Satsang Beas to do with their lineage: vain gurus who seek to have authority over the spiritual lives of their followers are the same world over.
Cheers
Larry Rowe


Hi Larry,

Thanks for sharing your views on all of this here. Let me say that, in my opinion, you're leaving out one very important Covenant, Abdul-Baha's authentic 1912 Covenant, the one he openly taught and promulgated to Bahais when he was in the United States:

"After Abdul-Baha—whenever the Universal House of Justice is organized it will ward off differences."
http://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html

So important was it to him and to early Bahais, it was repeatedly published in 1912 and thereafter many times prior to his passing in 1921. Yet it was already being suppressed in the last months of his life. With its broad, simple emphasis on God's eternal Covenant with humanity, it contains nothing redolent of the hatred and shunning of the forged document that was to bring in all the woe alluded to by Baha'u'llah in the Tablet of the Holy Mariner. Note also that it emphasizes that after his passing it would be the organization of a properly elected Universal House of Justice that would guide and unify the Bahais. That institution has yet to properly elected and organized, but, in time, God willing, the Ark of His Covenant shall prevail.

Hope you don't mind my sharing my views with you.

Frederick Glaysher
Reform Bahai Faith
www.ReformBahai.org

 

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, MI
#486
Tuesday Jun 16
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post486
Jeffrey wrote:
"What are we going to do about this?: "The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity." Baha'u'llah


It seems to me that Jeffrey makes a very important point. Instead of throwing stones, he is asking a sincere question, one that we all should reflect and consult on. Let us all think of Abdul-Baha as gazing upon us from the Abha Kingdom and strive to follow his Example of universal brotherhood and love. With the Master before us, as it were, Bahais of all denominations, ought to make an effort to listen and understand one another and find ways to co-exist and respect one another, as fellow Bahais, instead of repeating all the terrible deeds of past religions.

All that does not mean that each denomination cannot candidly state its views and beliefs, what distinguishes and defines each. It's a matter of HOW it's done, the Spirit that counts. None of us are without blame, myself included. Instead of repeating the mistakes of exclusivism, I second Jeffery's reminder that Abdul-Baha called us to a path beyond "dissension and discord, of hate and enmity."

What are we going to do about that?

Frederick Glaysher
Reform Bahai Faith
www.ReformBahai.org

 

Freedom of Conscience
#528
Wednesday Jun 17
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post528
Larry Rowe wrote:
"As for any claimed Baha'i covenent whether it is Haifan or Orthodox such a covenant was flawed from the beginning....
Neither was Abbas Effendi's covenant expressed in his W&T fulfilled.
The Baha'i covenant is a joke. A mere bludgeon used to threaten and to coerce. Coerce religionists of both Haifan and Orthodox sects into believing in a supposed world order of Baha'u'llah of which they are the true inheritors; which is quite obviously a mutilated non-existent world order. Which is further proven by the dialogue that is occuring between members of these two Baha'i sects here in this thread."
Cheers
Larry Rowe


Larry,
I don't want to sound like a broken record (how's that for leaving oneself open for attack!), but they're all based on a forged will & testament. THAT's the source of all the problems. Over the decades, people have all been brainwashed into believing what they're told, told by those have benefit from the lie.

Here's the document conveniently suppressed after the Master's death: www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html
Simple, clear, broad, & universal. What's wrong with it? Can't control people with something like that, with anything that respects their individuality and conscience....

Bludgeon is the right word. Often used in the past on talk.religion.bahai & elsewhere, by Juan Cole, myself, others....

Frederick Glaysher
The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/

 

Freedom of Conscience
Rochester, MI
#533
Thursday Jun 18
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post533
Part I
MJUBC wrote:
"Welcome to reality."
"The court will dismiss the Trademark infringement claim. That's reality."


I agree with your assessment. That's the reality of the issue. The judges demonstrated that they're well aware of what the Wilmette nsa is actually trying to perpetrate against Bahais of other denominations and opinion. The irony is that Baha'u'llah Himself was against the kind of fanaticism that Wilmette Baha'is have tried to conceal from their fellow citizens for decades.

Baha’u’llah removed jihad, in the violent sense of the word, and other assortments of fanaticism from the Book. Here are a few excerpts in which He and Abdu’l-Baha discuss it:

“The deniers and contradictors hold to four words:
First: Destroying men’s lives.
Second: Burning the books.
Third : Shunning other nations.
Fourth: Exterminating other nations.
Now, by the Grace and Authority of the Word of God, these four great barriers have been demolished. These four manifest decrees have been effaced from the Book, and God hath changed brutal manners into spiritual qualities.(37-38)

Abdu’l-Baha:
“Thus Baha’u’llah presented the fact of the oneness of the world of humanity, while in all the past religious books humanity has been divided into two parts, one part looked upon as belonging to the faithful, the other part as belonging to the irreligious and infidel; the first part consigned to the Mercy of their Creator, the second part considered as objects of the Creator’s Wrath. But His Holiness Baha’u’llah proclaimed the Oneness of the world of humanity, and this Teaching is unique to the Teachings of Baha’u’llah, for He submerged all mankind in the sea of Divine Generosity. At most, some of the people are asleep—they need to be awakened. Some are ill—they need to be healed. Some are children—they need to be trained.”(100)

(Both quotations from The Universal Principles of the Reform Bahai Faith. Baha'u'llah & Abdul-Baha. Edited by Frederick Glaysher, with a new Introduction and the original 1912 Foreword. Reform Bahai Press, 2008. 148 pages.$19.99. 2nd printing now available. Hardcover: ISBN-13: 9780967042138. Reform Bahai Press. http://www.reformbahai.org/Reform_Bahai_Press.html )

#534 Jun 18
Part II
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post534

While Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha “removed from the Book,” such unseemly practices, Shoghi Effendi, with the help of the fraudulent “will and testament” essentially put them and other repulsive practices back into the Bahai Cause. Denis McEoin discusses Shoghi Effendi’s use of language in this regard in his 2008 Response to thefatwa of Mulla Momen:

“Shoghi Effendi (1897-1957)... devoted many passages to individuals. Here is an abbreviated list of terms applied by him to ‘covenant-breakers’, dissidents, apostates and opponents:

“Diabolical, ambitious, malevolent, deluded,‘shameless apostate’, brazen, infamous, insidious,‘vile whisperer’, Antichrist,‘the living embodiment of wickedness, cupidity and deceit’, blasphemous, unspeakably repugnant, perfidious, unquenchable animosity, arrogant, treacherous, despicable,‘blind, uncontrollable animosity’,‘the most shameless, vicious, relentless apostate’,
‘the incarnation of Satan’,‘fiendish ingenuity and guile’, infernal, nefarious, defectors, betrayers.

“All this in the mid-20th century. This is the intolerant world to which Momen [and other Haifan/Wilmette Baha’is], as a true believer, belongs, and I think it not unreasonable to suppose that his analysis of Baha’i apostates derives ... from this tradition...[i.e., Shoghi Effendi. For more details about this article and my own “Response to Takfir,” see http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/apostates.htm ]

“All this,” one might add, in the twenty-first century, with a fraudulently established Haifan / Wilmette organization seeking to use the federal courts to prop up their reprehensible practices, prop up their bogus trademarks, all of which were even in the public realm for decades prior to Abdul-Baha's death. Obviously, something else is involved than what they're pretending to in Court. Fortunately, the judges are on to 'em.

Frederick Glaysher
The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/


Freedom of Conscience
#544
Friday Jun 19
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post544
Larry Rowe wrote:...
A person should ask themselves why were the holy family such abject failures at the practice of the oneness of humanity? Were Shoghi's family members, including his own parents, all:

“Diabolical, ambitious, malevolent, deluded,‘shameless apostate’, brazen, infamous, insidious,‘vile whisperer’, Antichrist,‘the living embodiment of wickedness, cupidity and deceit’, blasphemous, unspeakably repugnant, perfidious, unquenchable animosity, arrogant, treacherous, despicable,‘blind, uncontrollable animosity’,‘the most shameless, vicious, relentless apostate’, ‘the incarnation of Satan’,‘fiendish ingenuity and guile’, infernal, nefarious, defectors, betrayers.... simply because they refused to quit a job, because they went on a trip to America without first getting Shoghi's permission, because they had arranged a marriage Shoghi didn't approve of, because they refused to disassociate from fellow family members who had been unjustly black balled because of Shoghi's power tripping?

Let face it, it was Shoghi's dysfunction which caused him to become alienated from his entire family not visa versa. Dyfunctional because he gave lip service to the teaching of the oneness of humanity but didn't even practice that oneness within his own family.

Here's some of Shoghi's dysfunction ranting to do with his own brother:

In December 1949, Shoghi Effendi sent the following cable to the Bahá'í world.

"Faithless brother Hussein [Husayn], already abased through dishonourable conduct over period of years followed by association with Covenant-breakers in Holy Land and efforts to undermine Guardian's position, recently further demeaned himself through marriage under obscure circumstances with low-born Christian girl in Europe. This disgraceful alliance, following four successive marriages by sisters and cousins with three sons of Covenant-breaker denounced repeatedly by 'Abdu'l-Bahá as His enemy, and daughter of notorious political agitator, brands them with infamy greater than any associated with marriages contracted by old Covenant-breakers whether belonging to family of Muhammad-'Ali or Badi'u'llah." [32-16](Adib Taherzadeh, The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, p. 362)

The actual word's of your hero-guru Shoghi show him for the type of person he truly was, narrow minded as well as bigoted.
Cheers
Larry Rowe


Larry,

Thanks as always for your steadfastness on these issues and sharing your views.

I think you're quite right that it comes down to Shoghi Effendi's own bigotry and dysfunction, personally, intellectually, spiritually, and so on. His dealings with his own family demonstrate so thoroughly what's wrong with the Haifan denomination.

Free speech and conscience is a wonderful thing. It's very difficult for those who are certain they have the exclusive truth of all of human history to understand. Invariably they run to extremes and convict themselves with their own words. They are the greatest protectors of a free and open society, did they but know it, whether the fanatic is someone like Shoghi Effendi, with all his Shiite Iranian detritus, or one of the many online minions.... they open their mouths, and anyone with any sense can see what they really amount to, as in a court of law....

The Chicago Tribune and Manya A Brachear have really done the people of Chicago a service with their excellent article, despite a few minor inaccuracies, and allowing here in this forum discussion to take place so that citizens may judge for themselves.

Frederick Glaysher
The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/


Freedom of Conscience
#549
Saturday
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post549

Please compare the following to Denis McEoin's already-cited article:

Excerpt from Mirza Ahmad Sohrab's Broken Silence: The Story of Today's Struggle for Religious Freedom. New York: Universal Publishing, 1942.

"A Dangerous Doctrine. In considering the problem of fear, let us for a while study the writings of Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Cause, and see how he handles this vital subject.... The three published volumes of Shoghi Effendi are *Baha'i Administration, The World Order of Baha'u'llah* and *The Advent of Divine Justice*, which works consist of the letters which he has addressed to the National Spiritual Assembly in the course of the last 20 years. Now, I have read these three books and find that the words *enemies* and *adversaries* are greatly featured. Baha'u'llah has said:*Consort with all men with joy and fragrance, yet Shoghi Effendi, in his very first letter, dated January 21, 1922, written after his assumption of the guardianship, recommends *the absolute shunning of whomsoever we feel to be an enemy of the Cause.(*Bahai Administration, page 16.) Now, I cannot bring myself to the point of believing that *absolute shunning* of whomsoever we *feel* to be the enemy of the Cause is a principle of Baha'u'llah. Is every one going to let his *feelings* guide him in the matter? Can we not take for granted that frail human beings as we are, a great deal of personal caprice and spite may enter into our calculations as to *who* is the enemy of the Bahai Cause? This is a very dangerous doctrine, and yet one finds it in different forms throughout Shoghi Effendi's communications. He practically never mentions the names of the *enemies* or *adversaries* to whom he constantly refers. He simply creates ogres and bogey men, and fills the hearts of the Bahais with apprehension and fear. In this way, the fountain-head of free and open comradeship is dried up and the flowers of loving-kindness wither away" (409-410).
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/SohrabEx.htm

It seems more than one person has noticed these things about the cult figure Haifans have been brainwashed into worshipping.

Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship

 

Freedom of Conscience
#569
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post569
Larry Rowe wrote:
Hello Fred,
Yes fear was even more central to Shoghi's Baha'i faith than the oneness of humanity.

Of course the UHJ has continued on sowing the same fear as well:...

Even though none other than Baha'u'llah himself had removed such antiquated religious practices Shoghi and the UHJ in his stead counciled Baha'is to practice those very religious practices that Baha'u'llah had supposedly abolished:....

Until Baha'is leave such antiquated religious practices behind them their religion will remain part and parcel of the problem of religion being: "the most harmful agency on this planet"* as Abdul-Baha' himself put it.

Cheers
Larry Rowe


Hello Larry,

I fully agree that Shoghi Effendi and the uhj have created what I would call a cult based entirely on FEAR, and all its offspring, COERCION, PARANOIA, violation of the individual's God-given conscience, highly analogous to all the oppressive systems and regimes of history, whether secular or religious.

In my view, ever since Abdul-Baha's death, the monster, leviathan really, created by the spurious will and testament, has been bent upon the destruction of all voices and views contrary to its criminal aspirations of social, material, and political dominance of not just any one nation, but of the entire world. That's a lot for any local leader in a government position to realize and believe--but that's the fact--all of which is thoroughly contrary to what, as you say, Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha taught.

With the passing decades, it has become even more difficult for Bahais to penetrate the immense veil of lies and fabrications and recover the truth of the Founders own Teachings. But it is possible. Their Teachings were wide and open, addressed to the public. Ultimately, they cannot be suppressed, not even by the corrupted, criminal uhj and its pathetic minions. Corruption is the very essence of the Haifan denomination, for it is built squarely upon a corrupted document. It can never renew the Bahai Teachings. For it has become, as you cite Abdul-Baha, "the most harmful agency on this planet." They've proven it for all the world to see with their obscene lawsuits against other Bahai denominations.

In my view, only a renew Bahai denomination returning to Abdul-Baha's broad and universal Interpretation for the modern world can do that--the Reform Bahai Faith.

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/

 

Freedom of Conscience
#898
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post898
Jeffrey wrote:
"Many of the comments here by the heterodox Baha'is reveal an intellectual dishonesty about the court action that is appalling. They take a few things out of context in order to make their fallacious arguments. The bottom line is that the Court ruled that legally --- under federal secular law of the United States --- the OBF is not the same organization as the Remey organization. That is not a slap in the face or repudiation of anybody but instead is a technical ruling of law. The courts in the United States DO NOT decide religious disputes or any matter of religious belief, and it is time for the Baha'is to get clear on this. If you want to argue the religious truths, you don't do it in federal court."


Jeffrey,

Thank you for clarifying for everyone again what the legal perspective or issues are.

Just glancing at the headlines in the news, regarding many countries, I'm grateful that we Bahais who are citizens of the USA are blessed with its citizenship and tradition of Western law.

I was just reading Abdul-Baha this morning and your comments bring back to mind these passages:

"I am pleased with the English King and Government, and with the people. You may thank God that in this land you are so free. You do not know what lack of freedom there is in the East...."

"The light of liberty is the light of the West, and the intention of government is to work for truth and justice in Western countries."

Thank God that the judges involved in these lawsuits have demonstrated they're interested in liberty, truth, and justice.

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher

95 Theses - On Bahai Liberty - Articles - Abdul-Baha's Covenant
The Reform Bahai Faith
www.ReformBahai.org

 

Freedom of Conscience
#921
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post921

There's a fine passage in Abdul-Baha in London, near the end, in which he says,

"The beginnings of all great religions were pure; but priests, taking possession of the minds of the people, filled them with dogmas and superstitions, so that religion became gradually corrupt. I come to teach no new religion.'My only desire is, through the blessing of God, to show the road to the Great Light.'"

One might add mullas and "administrators" and all those who would cram the Spirit into a little box, suing anyone who doesn't repeat their shibboleth....

Another fine passage, full of the freedom and liberty of the Bahai Spirit, the authentic Covenant and Teaching and Interpretation of Abdul-Baha:

"You can be a Bahai-Christian, a Bahai-Freemason, a Bahai-Jew, a Bahai-Muhammadan. The number nine contains eight, and seven, and all the other numbers, and does not deny any of them. Do not distress or deny anyone by saying 'He is not a Bahai!' He will be known by his deeds."

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher

95 Theses - On Bahai Liberty - Articles - Abdul-Baha's Covenant
The Reform Bahai Faith
www.ReformBahai.org

 

Freedom of Conscience
#963
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post963
May 18, 2009. The Chicago Tribune. Baha'i rift: Baha'is upset with Orthodox Baha'i Faith.

For my various Comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum, now easily available on one page:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chicago_Tribune.html

Also, available on Yahoo Group - ReformBahai
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReformBahai

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher
The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

Freedom of Conscience
Rochester, MI
#1089
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post1089

Jeffrey wrote:
<quoted text> Why cannot your organization tolerate free speech?
Jeffrey,

A very good question. Abdul-Baha was not afraid of free speech: "The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions."

Incidentally, Jeffrey, I certainly don't think you're a fundamentalist and respect your views and conscience, though we regard the will and testament differently. You might recall our various discussions on talk.religion.bahai, which were candid and cordial.

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher
The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chicago_Tribune.html

Yahoo Group - ReformBahai
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReformBahai

 

Freedom of Conscience
#1090
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post1090

"This is that matter which shall never change. Know that in every age and dispensation all divine ordinances are changed, according to the requirements of the time, except the law of Love which, like unto a fountain, flows always and is never overtaken by change." -Baha'u'llah

From The Universal Principles of the Reform Bahai Faith. 2008. Baha'u'llah & Abdul-Baha. Available from the Reform Bahai Press. http://www.reformbahai.org/Reform_Bahai_Press.html

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/

Comments posted to the discussion of this article
in the Chicago Tribune Forum, now easily available on one page:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chicago_Tribune.html

Yahoo Group - ReformBahai
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReformBahai

 

Freedom of Conscience
Rochester, MI
#1334

Jeffrey wrote:
"Today is the 1000th day of pending litigation since the court aggression was initiated by the Wilmette NSA against the defenders of the Covenant and the Guardianship."

In my view, 1000 divided by 12 months = 83 years of aggression, in and out of court, against the authentic Covenant of Abdul-Baha.... The math is almost right, 1921 plus 83 = 2004.... close enough.

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher

 

Freedom of Conscience
Rochester, MI
#1335
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post1335
Jeffrey wrote:
<quoted text>To say that the OBF and BUPC are the same entity as the Remey NSA is to completely ignore the ruling of Judge St Eve, which carefully and correctly rejected that idea.


Jeffrey,

As you know, the Wilmette nsa chose to reject Judge St Eve's ruling when they appealed it, which they'll do again, no matter what judgment against the current court issues. They're trapped in the iron-grip of their own fraud and fanaticism.

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

Freedom of Conscience
Rochester, MI
#1336
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post1336
Jeffrey wrote:
<quoted text>The great catastrophe did indeed begin on April 21, 1963 with the election of your UHJ when the Baha'i world was plunged into violation."

Alas, the Bahai world was plunged much earlier into spiritual confusion and catastrophe. I would say, though, that Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha both foresaw it and have provided means of recovery.

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

Freedom of Conscience
#1337
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post1337
Jeffrey wrote:
There is no question this is a true statement. The attorneys for the NSA were fixated upon this in their writings and in their personal conversations with me--- they were constantly referring to the Baha'i Faith as if it were a corporate business and not a world-wide religion. They constantly spoke about the great earthly power and influence of their organization but displayed little understanding or caring about the spiritual power of Baha'u'llah's Cause. It is there in the pleadings for anyone to read.

AND

I should also add that not once did the NSA's attorneys refer to the spiritual significance of the Greatest Name and its symbols. For them it was a trademark pure and simple. The pleadings on behalf of the NSA are blasphemy! The OBF on the other hand made it clear to the Court that the symbol of the Greatest Name and the Greatest Name itself had the most sacred significance and it was absurd to refer to them as corporate trademarks as if the Baha'is were selling soap


Jeffrey,

As I've pointed out to you before, the Wilmette organization has always taken that tactic in court, misrepresenting or, ironically, accurately representing itself for what it truly is--a hijacked religious cult corruptly based on the teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha, subverted into a business organization. Their thinking seems to be, How can the courts argue with the truth?

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post1338
Jeffrey,

Incidentally, it might interest you to know that the Orthodox Bahai Faith was mentioned at a recent fireside / meeting the Reform Bahai Faith held in London at Speakers Corner. http://www.reformbahai.org/Speakers_Corner_Hyde_Park_London_UK.html

People had asked about other Bahai denominations and I had mentioned the Orthodox Bahais as well.

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

Freedom of Conscience
http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post1510
#1510

Freedom of Conscience wrote:
<quoted text>
Susan Maneck - The Video: Shiite Ideology of Baha'i Fanaticism
Baha'i -.... I urge you to consider watching it, not merely for what it demonstrates about her own thinking, but also that of Iranian and "administrative" Baha'is, and what has gone so terribly wrong with the Haifan interpretation of Baha'u'llah's religion, under the counterfeit will and testament of Abdul-Baha.


I quoted and provided this documentation because it corroborates the observation of Jeffrey regarding the lack of ethics this particular Wilmette Baha'i has demonstrated for years, and, I would say, the entire Wilmette Bahai denomination, as shown by its criminal tactics of using the US courts to deprive other Bahais of their religious freedom and liberty.

Dr. Denis MacEoin makes many enlightening observations along these lines in his review of Making the Crooked Straight, in June 2001, a review relevant here to the Chicago Tribune article, which has largely been evaded by Wilmette Baha'is:

"How humanitarian is it to demand that a man’s wife and children should shun him merely because he has changed his beliefs?"
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/MacEoinRev.htm

There's the real Wilmette Baha'i Faith that is currently using the US Court of Appeals in its fanaticism against other Bahais. It is not inappropriate to consider the very long and well documented history of reprehensible tactics and apologetics of both individuals and "institutions," especially when they threaten the very integrity of the democratic society we live and which both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha lauded and largely approved.

The people of Chicago and the United States have the right to know what the true nature of the Wilmette Baha'i organization is--basically a Shiite Iranian cult built on a fraudulent will and testament, hiding behind a deceptive facade of peace and love.

Frederick Glaysher

Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship

My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chicago_Tribune.html

Yahoo Group - ReformBahai
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReformBahai

----

Susan Maneck, Baha'i scholar:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm

http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck8.htm

 

Freedom of Conscience
http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post1526
#1526

The British scholar Denis MacEoin made a very insightful observation in his article "Baha'i fundamentalism and the academic study of the Babi movement," in Religion, Volume 16, Issue 1, January 1986, Pages 57-84:

"More than once in the past century, scholars have had occasion to speak of the intellectual dishonesty of the Baha'is in dealing with matters of historical fact. Unhappily, it has fallen to my lot to reiterate the sentiments of my predecessors and to deplore, as they deplored, the high-handed and tendentious manner in which texts are manipulated, facts swept aside or transformed, and common sense outraged..." (80).

In MacEoin's response to an attack by Baha'i fundamentalists, he observed, in "Afnán, hatcher and an old bone," Religion, Volume 16, Issue 2, April 1986, Pages 193-195, that they were similarly "dishonest and unacademic" in their treatment of his and others' scholarship on Babi and Bahai sources.

These same essentially dishonest and apologetic impulses are evident in the online posts of the Haifan-Wilmette Baha'is here, as they are in their claims in court during this misbegotten case.

That Susan Maneck has exhibited the same "dishonest and unacademic" qualities throughout her various jihads online is no more than to observe the facts of her conduct, easily confirmed by anyone who wishes to independently investigate the matter for themselves. The crude apologists for her duplicities and lack of integrity merely prove the application of Dr. MacEoin's observations in other contexts:


Susan Maneck, Baha'i scholar:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm

Frederick Glaysher

Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship

My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chicago_Tribune.html

Yahoo Group - ReformBahai
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReformBahai

--
Susan Maneck, Baha'i scholar:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm

http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck8.htm

Freedom of Conscience
http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post1528
#1528

Typical of Haifan-Wilmette Baha'i fanaticism that the real issue at hand is evaded and the subject changed, as though it were all personal animosity, ad hominem used whenever needed to obscure the dirty reality that the cult of Shoghi Effendi and his fraudulent will and testament has produced.

Professor Juan Cole speaks with authority on the utter lack of ethics of both Susan Maneck,*dishonest* online Baha'is like her, and the "mainstream" Baha'i "administration", mainstream only in its polluted interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Teachings:

www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Cole19.htm

www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Cole20.htm

www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Cole74.htm

Frederick Glaysher

Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship

My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chicago_Tribune.html

Yahoo Group - ReformBahai
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReformBahai

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

Freedom of Conscience
http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post1616
#1616

KPS59 wrote:
I don't agree with Frederick Glaysher on his basic premise about the W&T of Abdu'l-Baha but as a BUPC I would never approve of any effort to censure, silence, or strip him of his God given right to believe as he chooses.
Those Mr. Glaysher is exposing here in general and in particular are working feverishly to do exactly those things, not just to Mr. Glaysher but to any other individual or group which professes the name of Baha' and refuses to submit to their totalitarian regime.

KPS59,

Thank you for your comments. Your willingness to speak out is very important, especially given the BUPC court experience. I think it's essential that the various Bahai denominations set a better example of respecting one another's opinions and freedom of conscience than past religions or the Haifans.

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher

Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship

My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chicago_Tribune.html

Yahoo Group - ReformBahai
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReformBahai

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

Freedom of Conscience
http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post1617
#1617

RossCampbell wrote:
Quinn wrote:
"Fred fell out of the boat because he has no such legitimate interpreter....
Cordially,
Ross

Ross,

Thank you for your comment.

While I respect your opinion and belief, permit me to say that, actually, in my view, Abdul-Baha did not appoint anyone, as he said and warned against repeatedly. The historical record of *all* of the Bahai books and periodicals published prior to 1921 demonstrate that fact. It's only after the fraudulent will and testament is forced upon the early Bahais, over a couple of generations, really, that people came to believe it--often because they didn't know the truth, despite Ruth White and Dr. C. Ainsworth Mitchell's efforts to wake people up.

Abdul-Baha's teaching was solely that a properly elected Universal House of Justice would guide the community:

"After Abdul-Baha—whenever the Universal House of Justice is organized it will ward off differences."
www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html

That's it in a nutshell. Far from falling out of the boat, I and Reform Bahais have figured it out and gotten back in it.

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher

Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship

My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chicago_Tribune.html

Yahoo Group - ReformBahai
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReformBahai

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

Freedom of Conscience
#1618
http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post1618

Jeffrey wrote:
<quoted text>I do pray for the Baha'i victims of oppression in Iran, but also that the heterodox Baha'is might learn from this experience and back away from their own oppressive court action against the Orthodox Baha'is. Let us recognize the right of all persons to practice their faith as they see fit, including the BUPC, and that everyone should have the right of free expression to discuss the truth freely and openly so that all persons might decide for themselves what is true.


Amen.

Frederick Glaysher

Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship

My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chicago_Tribune.html

Yahoo Group - ReformBahai
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReformBahai

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3438
Larry,
I agree with everything you've written in message #3437 but wonder whether you might not be in denial about the real reason for the dysfunction. As I responded to you before, which you seem to ignore:

>What has brought the Baha'i Faith to this juncture?

A fraudulent will and testament.

>Why is it that respect for the diversity of religious interpretation is missing amongst all Baha'i sects?

"All" is inaccurate. Abdul-Baha and the Reform Bahai Faith respect and permit "diversity of religious interpretation."

The Reform Bahai Faith is NOT a party to the lawsuit before the US 7th District Appeals Court. Baha'is who have been deceived and brainwashed into believing in an unprobated forgery are free to make their own decisions.

Abdul-Baha's Authentic Covenant is a broad, open, tolerant, universal Interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Teachings, one in harmony with life in the modern world. That some Baha'is chose to ignore Abdul-Baha and to "organize" the Bahai Movement out of their greed for power and wealth does not discredit the veracity of Abdul-Baha's moderate and balanced Interpretation.

Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant
www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html 

Comments on Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant
http://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant_comments.... 

The real issue and heart of the problem is not Abdul-Baha's Interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Teachings, but the corrupt and fraudulent will and testament put in place by Shoghi Effendi and his corrupt family.

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3439

Also, I would urge anyone actually interested in the truth of the **ACTUAL** history of the Baha'i Faith to read the works of Ruth White, Julie Chanler, and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab. They understood that something very profound and basic had gone wrong with the Baha'i Faith after Abdul-Baha's death in 1921 and had the courage to speak out against it. They all identified the tactics of slander and abuse used by Shoghi Effendi as despicable and capable of only leading to the destruction of Abdul-Baha's universal Interpretation of the Bahai Movement.

Their books are available on the Reform Bahai Faith website.

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3447
Hi Larry,

I largely agree with you. Comments below.

You wrote:
>Hi Fred,I'm partly agreed with you. The supposed W&T of Abbas Effendi is highly suspect. Even without the handwriting evidence. The likely hood that Abbas would have been certain about the appointment of Shoghi at the age he is supposed to have is vanishingly small.

My reply:
The handwriting evidence was provided by the document expert for the British Museum, 
Dr. C.(Charles) Ainsworth Mitchell - Certified Copy from the Library of Congress
Report on the Writing Shown on the Photographs of the Alleged Will of Abdu'l-Baha. 1930.
http://www.reformbahai.org/CAMitchell_Report.... 

Yes, the claim Abdul-Baha appointed Shoghi Effendi when he was four years old or so is ridiculous, but it's the kind of thing that happens once a forgery has been committed.

You wrote:
My search for the truth about the dysfunction of the Baha'i faith has taken me past the UHJ, to Shoghi, but then as well back to Abbas and Husayn Ali themselves.... Both Husayn and his son Abbas put their own personal religious interpretations before living the reality of the oneness of humanity, the oneness of human spirituality, the oneness of family.

My reply:
While I believe it is necessary to go back beyond the uhj and its corrupt organization, I personally don't believe Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha failed to live up to the three onenesses, if you will. In my view, it's important to remember they were living within a very oppressive Islamic climate, and, as Baha'u'llah taught, the Manifestation is human too, part of God's progressive unfoldment of His purpose for humanity. It's anachronistic for any age to project its values upon the dead. I don't beleive either Baha'u'llah or Abdul-Baha was responsible for what you seem to be referring to as disunity in their families; they did everything to preserve the unity of their families and the faith, even as they allowed the faith to evolve and develop, unlike what has happened since the fraudulent will and testament of 1921.

Larry wrote:
>Oneness of family is the foundation of all other human oneness....[etc.,Shoghi Effendi]

My reply:
I fully agree when it comes to the family being the foundation of unity. Both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha stressed preserving family unity, so I would have to differ with you on this point. The real hypocrisy sets in with Shoghi Effendi, in my view. The "dangerous doctrine," as Ahmad Sohrab wisely phrased it, stems from Shoghi's perversion of the Master's Interpretation.

Just my views. I respect yours, your conscience.

I believe it is by *returning* to the simply and moderate Interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Teaching by Abdul-Baha, as he lived and demonstrated it in the West, that the hope continues to reside for the future of the Bahai Movement. I invite people of all persuasions to investigate Abdul-Baha's Authentic Covenant of 1912 for themselves, without the imposed blinders of Shoghi Effendi's self-serving violation--a violation that demonstrated now for decades how corrupt and destructive it is.

Bahai regards,

Fred

95 Theses - On Bahai Liberty - Articles - Abdu'l-Baha's Covenant
The Reform Bahai Faith
www.ReformBahai.org

http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3496

http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3497

KPS59 wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know what you're talking about. The link at the top of the post wherein I pasted the entire article goes directly to it. The link I took the article from also goes directly to it. It's a moot question anyway as you can see, by the fact that I posted the article in it's entirety here. Just click on the link, and read the article.

Thank you for searching the database for topix.net , google, and the archive for The Chicago Tribune:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-... 

You're quite right that the originating article of this forum is available to be found by others through those sources. My point is it is NO LONGER available through the Main Page search window for The Chicago Tribune at all, WHATSOEVER. Go to

http://www.chicagotribune.com 

In the search window, top right, enter baha'i, then bahai, then baha'i rift--NO hit whatsoever...

Why? I wouldn't say it doesn't matter, since there are other articles going back to 2006. It should available for anyone in Chicago or elsewhere who specifically or casually The Chicago Tribune, not buried in the archives.

I urge anyone concerned about this discrepancy to contact / email The Chicago Tribune, asking them to make the article available since it has generated some an enormous response and interest as demonstrated by this forum.

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3521


KPS59 wrote:
<quoted text>
Dear Fred,
Someone mentioned earlier that the individual moderating or at least monitoring this forum had some Baha'i connection of some persuasion but it seemed as though they indicated that it was not aligned with the sans-guardians position. You'd have to go back through the pages here and find that reference for yourself to confirm or correct my recollection as I'm not that concerned about it since I have no difficulty finding the article or the forum through other searches.
Even so it is well established fact that the sans-guardians have many times in the past reached profound lows in the practice of repression oppression and control measures which rival and even surpass those of previous corrupt, totalitarian perversions of religious dispensations which began as pure revelations from God through the Manifestations.
KPS,

Thank you for pointing out that a Bahai of one persuasion or another may have the opportunity to skew or distort the availability of information presented here. 

You're quite right, as you know, that the Haifan Baha'is often and regularly sink to extremely low levels of duplicity and deceit in their reprehensible efforts to suppress views other than their own.

With all respect for your views, realizing its up to you to decide for yourself what is important and what isn't, I would suggest you might consider, indeed, people here of all persuasions, that we should be concerned if the originating article for this forum has been removed from The Chicago Tribune main site. See message #3497 for details.
http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCP... 

It distorts what the general American and international readership can easily find on The Chicago Tribune about the Baha'i Faith ina major newspaper of public record and thereby enables it to suppress the knowledge of its unconscionable attacks on Bahais of other denominations in the US District Courts, attacks against all freedom-loving people. Further, it enables the Wilmette, Illinois nsa of the corrupt and decadent Haifan Baha'i Faith to present itself in a falsely favorable light, which is deceptive and unearned, calculated to mislead the uninformed and innocent.

Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant
www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html 

Comments on Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant
http://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant_comments.... 

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3508

KPS59 wrote:
<quoted text>
So you think it's part of a conspiracy to keep people from finding the original article?
I never used the "conspiracy." That was uttered by apparently a member of the Baha'i denomination that relies on slander and character assassination for discrediting people it cannot otherwise refute or control to believe in their fraudulent will and testament.

My point is merely noting the original article, unlike some older articles even back to 2006, has been removed, despite a huge interest demonstrated in this forum. Why? It doesn't make sense. Not logical to remove articles of interest. Independently thinking people should at least wonder why and be concerned.

The fanatical and deceitful history of the Haifan denomination is well known. See The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience for further details:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/ 

They also demonstrated it to Judge Amy St. Eve and she ruled against them. Judge Diane S. Sykes seemed to understand what caliber of an organization she had in front of her in court last February when she said their tactics "Clearly raises some constitutional concerns." Three minute MP3 recording:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/arch... 

7th Circuit Court of Appeals Judges hammer NSA's attorney 2-20-09
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/USCo... 

Bahai regards,

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3509

Larry Rowe wrote:
"This human tendency leads only to exclusivity, insularity, disunity, violence, and murder with one group desiring to cure the wrongs of the world through raising their heros/gurus,,their particular religious interpretations, above all others. Baha'is are as guilty of this religious triumphalism as are most reigionists/cultists from all religions and cults.
Larry,

I respect and share your concern about "exculsivity." In my view, the actual teaching and Interpretation of Abdul-Baha of Baha'u'llah emphasizes non-exclusivism. For more than a full decade, teaching in the West, in public, through spoken and written word, that's what Abdul-Baha actually taught. 

It's truly only with the fraudulent will and testament that the Bahai Movement was distorted into the fanatical organization it has become. This is discussed with clear examples and citations at Comments on Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant
http://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant_comments.... 

I invite you to investigate it for yourself.

I do want to say that I respect your recent statement that you consider yourself now basically agnostic. That's a respectable, reasonable view of life and human experience--especially looking around at the way the world seems to work. I do not demean it in anyway, nor should anyone else. Why we all *believe* various beliefs, not one of us *knows* this side of the grave, all the more reason to respect one another.

Bahai regards,

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3519

Larry Rowe wrote:
"I respect and share your concern about "exculsivity." In my view, the actual teaching and Interpretation of Abdul-Baha of Baha'u'llah emphasizes non-exclusivism. For more than a full decade, teaching in the West, in public, through spoken and written word, that's what Abdul-Baha actually taught."

Howdy Fred,
What Abbas Effendi actually thought about previous religions was that they were, in his own words: "decrepit"*, and that: "why should one go so far back"*. This is hardly a call for inclusivity Fred, a call for a truly ecumenical approach to religious diversity. Is it clearly a call for the supplantation of all previous religions by Baha'ism.
Messianic religions and their followers inevitably, inexorably, fall into this same pattern. A pattern in which they see their religion as the one and only salvation for all of humanity and that it is only the chosen, the believer, who will be saved. Mirza Husayn Ali often spouted such utter nonsense about the recognition of himself as messiah. Little wonder that Baha'is of all sects have fallen into a counterproductive approach to diversity of religion and religious interpretation themselves.
Cheers
Larry Rowe
*The teaching of Buddha was like a young and beautiful child, and now it has become as an old and decrepit man. Like the aged man it cannot see, it cannot hear, it cannot remember anything. Why go so far back? Consider the laws of the Old Testament: the Jews do not follow Moses as their example nor keep his commands. So it is with many other religions.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 63)
Buddhists of many persuasions, reformers and otherwise, have said the same thing about Buddhism from time to time.

Abdul-Baha in London (125):
"The beginnings of all great religions were pure; but priests, taking possession of the minds of the people, filled them with dogmas and superstitions, so that religion became gradually corrupt. I come to teach no new religion. My only desire is, through the blessing of God, to show the road to the Great Light."

In Abdul-Baha in London, he then immediately says, "I am no Prophet, only a man like yourself." He was limited by his time and his experience, as Baha'u'llah makes clear every dispensation is in the Book of Certitude. That a hundred years ago someone from a Muslim background would fail to understand Buddhism at the level we easily can today demonstrates how far society has progressed in understanding other religions. 

It is the universality at the core of Abdul-Baha's Interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Teachings that is important, along with the example of it given by Abdul-Baha in the West.

Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant
www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html 

Comments on Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant
http://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant_comments.... 

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3524

Larry Rowe wrote:
True. I have read some things from Buddhists that were not very tolerant of theists.

And you are right about Abbas Effendi; what he wrote, as well as what his father wrote, is a mix. Some of it definitely more efficacious, some of it the same old same old.

...

The only things worth retaining from any of the worlds religions/cults, including Buddhism, are such worthy concepts that are conducive to human progress. All the rest of it is detritus, an impediment to further human progress.
I would add Buddhists have attacked other Buddhists. Japanese history, especially, is unfortunate examples of that. Buddhists have and do disagree amongst themselves about interpretation, organization, etc. Why should Bahai be any different? Human beings disagree in education, government, etc., but when it comes to religion, modern conception is highly unrealistic. Abdul-Baha emphasized truth is arrived at through the "clash of differing opinions." Bahais needn't be afraid of that. The tongue,not the sword, is the standard.

I fully agree with you that SOME of the teachings and concepts of the world's religions are worth retaining. That is what Abdul-Baha himself did with both the Bab and Baha'u'llah's own teachings. He quietly emphasized the universal direction Bahais should take and set the example, though corrupted and usurped by the fraudulent will and testament for most Bahais.

In the long term, God willing, more Bahais will come to realize all this through, unfortunately, if nothing else, bitter experience, the kind you have often cited and alluded to, the court cases, etc.

Bahai regards,

Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant
www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html 

Comments on Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant
http://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant_comments.... 

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3525

Larry Rowe wrote:
And how many people have been slaughtered in the name of the 'true' religion? How many people have been forced to give up their native faiths because of those who hold to the delusion that their chosen faith is the only true faith?
Such belief only leads to extremism and religious fanaticism.
In every case where a supposedly true religion has been vaunted over all other religious interpretations it has invariably lead to violence and bloodshed.

Abdul-Baha emphasized the Bahai Movement was NOT a new religion, but religion renewed. In London he stated that "You can be a Bahai-Christian, a Bahai-Freemason, a Bahai-Jew, a Bahai-Muhammadan" (98), as he did on other occasions. Universality, not uniformity. It's only the individual soul who knows how to negotiate the path of his or her soul.

Abdul-Baha'is whole vision of the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar, the Bahai House of Worship, is that it should be a place for ALL religions and people to worship together, not enough contending church, though that is what the Haifans have reduced it to.

By returning to Abdul-Baha's basically universal vision of Baha'u'llah's teachings, Bahais can heal the enormous corruption brought into the Faith by the fraudulent will and testament and restore the spiritual health and vigor of all the past religions, help revive what is universal in them too, and move confidently again forward together into the future with our fellow human beings.

Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant
www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html 

Comments on Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant
http://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant_comments.... 

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3558

janice wrote:
Dear Friends,
I had no idea this discussion was still on! I had tried checking it by going to the Chicago Tribune site several months ago and found it was not accessible. So, I assumed it ended. But, just now, while googling something else, I bumped into it...3492 posts! Wow! Anyway, hello to all that might remember me.
KPS,

Case in point....

PS,

Thank you for pointing out that a Bahai of one persuasion or another may have the opportunity to skew or distort the availability of information presented here. 

You're quite right, as you know, that the Haifan Baha'is often and regularly sink to extremely low levels of duplicity and deceit in their reprehensible efforts to suppress views other than their own.

With all respect for your views, realizing its up to you to decide for yourself what is important and what isn't, I would suggest you might consider, indeed, people here of all persuasions, that we should be concerned if the originating article for this forum has been removed from The Chicago Tribune main site. See message #3497 for details.
http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCP... 

It distorts what the general American and international readership can easily find on The Chicago Tribune about the Baha'i Faith ina major newspaper of public record and thereby enables it to suppress the knowledge of its unconscionable attacks on Bahais of other denominations in the US District Courts, attacks against all freedom-loving people. Further, it enables the Wilmette, Illinois nsa of the corrupt and decadent Haifan Baha'i Faith to present itself in a falsely favorable light, which is deceptive and unearned, calculated to mislead the uninformed and innocent.

Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant
www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html 

Comments on Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant
http://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant_comments.... 

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3559

Larry Rowe wrote:
That those who call themselves Baha'is do not accept the reality of this contradiction and hypocrisy can be attributed to that willing blindness and ignorance that religionists of all persuasions allow to veil their sight.

Thus do religionists universally suffer from this same delusion: "If only the rest of humanity would hold to the exact same religious beliefs and interpretations as me all the problems of the world would be solved".
Larry,

I respect your views, even as I don't share them.

There are people in all religions who are "blind" to the worst in human nature and human failings, in and out of their faiths. At the same time, I would say the majority hold to what is best in human nature, stated clearly by Christ and other manifestations as the Golden Rule, which, yes, we human beings, all too easily fall short of. That's not Utopian, that's the nature of our existence and the challenge we find in the life given to us, to strive to rise toward the highest spiritual teachings held in common by all of the religions.

Bahai regards,

Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant
www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html 

Comments on Abdul-Baha's 1912 Authentic Covenant
http://www.reformbahai.org/Covenant_comments.... 

Reform Bahai Faith
Rochester, Michigan USA
www.ReformBahai.org

 

http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3561

Jeffrey wrote:
I do not believe this forum is being suppressed by the NSA or the Chicago Tribune. The article was allowed to be published in the first place and this forum has not been shut down. It remains in Google. The most likely reason for the link to this forum to be removed from the article is that the Tribune considers it archived and closed. The computer probably automatically removes the link when it moves it into their archive.
It's trued, as you say, that the archived version has no link to this discussion:
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/may/1... 

But it's the fact that articles on Bahai going back to 2006 are still available atwww.chicagotribune.com that might be reason for concern. Hackers are very good at changing such things.

Janice's comments shows someone *actually* tried to do what I'm concerned about--find the article and *this forum* but couldn't. It's reasonable to believe there may have been others who gave up and many who never heard of its existence in the first place.

Comments in the Chicago Tribune Forum:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chic...

 

http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3579

Larry Rowe wrote:
Here's a link to an article by Denis MacEoin a former Baha'i scholar who was threatened by Haifan Baha'i powers that be and told that he must not use scholarly sources that have not been vetted by the Baha'i thought police.
http://bahai-library.org/articles/babism.mace... 

Denis has written many other fine scholarly articles and papers on Baha'ism that are a must read. Again that is only if you are truly interested in the truth about Baha'ism. If you wish to remain enthralled to the cult of Baha'ism I suggest that you do not read Denis' papers because the truth will set you free....

I have the highest respect for Denis MacEoin's scholarship and articles and urge anyone interested in real scholarship, instead propaganda, to read his work, especially his many articles and reviews in the journal "Religion." That's not to say he's infallible, only professionally honest and sincere about his sources and conscience, unlike Baha'i minions who have no scholarly integrity.

Here's one available on The Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience.
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/MacE... 

His Response to Moojan Momen's fanatical takfir is essential reading for anyone to understand what's really being passed off as Baha'i scholarship. Details viahttp://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/apos... 

Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship 

Comments in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chic... 

Yahoo Group - ReformBahai
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReformBahai

 

http://www.topix.net/forum/chicago/TFIIGSPMCPELF67OR/post3727
Freedom of Conscience
Jan 14, 8:49 pm
Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai
From: Freedom of Conscience <s...@website.com>
Subject: Criminals... (Re: ALLBELIEFS site controlled by the BAHAI INTERNET AGENCY: BEWARE!)

Jeffrey wrote:
> Larry,
> This kind of excessive censorship is so unnecessary. Honestly, what
> do they fear by the term "Baha'ism"? I understand why they are
> against the term "Haifan Bahaism" because it suggests there are other
> versions of Baha'ism which they are in strict denial over. Apparently
> in the new world order of Haifan Bahaism, if there is something you
> don't like, you simply shun it away by refusing to speak or hear of
> it. This is really unhealthy!
> Jeffrey

Jeffrey,

As you and other members of the Orthodox Baha'i Faith, not to mention
others, should realize by now, you're dealing with criminals who stalk
and harass anyone who does not accept their fanatical, corrupt distortions
of Abdul-Baha's Interpretation of Baha'u'llah's teachings. Brainwashing
ignorant and gullible Americans is one of the dark arts Haifans excel at.
Health is the wrong metaphor. Criminal is more precise and descriptive.
Seeking to suppress and deprive fellow Americans of their Constitutional
right of freedom of religious conscience and belief is a criminal act,
as is slandering and libeling citizens who think differently from the
Shiite corruptions of the Haifan regime.

Essentially, the Haifans, under Shoghi Effendi's fraudulent will and
testament, reverted to the Shiite imamate, creating the mirror image of
Iranian obedience to the authority of the imam, the imam of the age,
which they called a "guardian," believing, in effect, that he's infallible
and must be obeyed in all things. Attempts to create a Bahai imamate are
contrary to Abdul-Baha's teaching of a properly elected Universal House of
Justice, an institution of Bahai spiritual authority, not worldly.
That such a decadent and perverse organization would behave as the Haifans
regularly do should come as no surprise to any thoughtful person of
normal goodwill and conscience.

Decades of supporting EVIDENCE may be found at the following links:

Chicago Tribune. Baha'i rift. Baha'is upset with Orthodox Baha'i Faith May 18, 2009
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/may/18/local/chi-bahai-18-may18

Comments posted to The Chicago Tribune Forum on one page:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chicago_Tribune.html

Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship

 


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