From: "Alma Engels" Subject: Re: Cowardice of the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States Date: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 4:01 AM Thank you for a thoughtful reply. I gather that my experience with Baha'is and the Administrative Order differ from yours and therefore we see things differently. When I first became a Baha'i, I heard that it took on the average two years before the newcomer gave to the funds. Not me. I gave immediately. And I sent money to the NSA every month -- a small but fixed sum for I was retired. I even changed from sending it every calendar month to every Baha'i month without reducing the amount. Which meant I couldn't use the money elsewhere. But things changed after a few years when I was falsely accused by another Baha'i of being infirm in the Covenant. That ended with my being cleared officially but in the process I learned that the individual Baha'i is of no importance to the Administrative Order. I am slow to react but eventually it became a matter of being obedient or following my conscience. I did not think then and don't think now that Baha'u'llah wants blind obedience. So I chose to follow my conscience ( I know of at least one person who took the other path at that junction in his life and I realize that we don't all see things the same way.) But the eventual outcome was that I no longer give any monies to the Administrative Order. None at all because I can mark it for a particular use and it would so be used. However, that just frees up other monies to be used in ways I cannot accept. A year or so after I reached this decision, I heard of a community that was going to build a Mashriqu. That was the kind of thing I could support and someone in the Community were discussing how and when I would send my gift which happened to be stock. (BTW I realized that it was important for the Community to build its own Temple and I stipulated that the funds I contributed were to be enhancements and not basic necessities.) Unfortunately at that time the Administrative Order (I think it came from Haifa) told the community they were NOT to build a Mashriqu but could build a Centre. I still have the stock and should the opportunity arise, I will give it to a similar enterprise. In the meantime, I support charities such as a local food bank which distributes millions of pounds of food in three states. I wrote the above in detail with the hope that you would understand that not all of us make the same decision. And I put my trust in Baha'u'llah that he will understand I am doing the best I can under the circumstances. In peace, Alma Robert Little wrote in message news:ufI98.3448$o%6.2336314@twister.socal.rr.com... > Hi Alma > > When I became a Baha'i, I heard an urgent plea that stated that the US > budget was in jeopardy. I have heard that same urgent plea many times in the > ensuing years. > > It seems that Baha'is like to wait until the last moment, then they respond, > either by going pioneering, or giving to one fund or another, or by doing > some act that they have commited themselve to doing earlier that Baha'i > year. I surmise that this "last moment" response is not unusual, is rather > more typical than one would like, and is a direct result of the spiritual > and secret obligation placed upon Baha'is to return to God what is His, to > use Baha'u'llah's term. > > I do not like this, any more than I like it when Baha'is arrive late for > Feast. When I have anything to say about it, Feast starts on time, and the > late comers can wait outside until prayers are finished. They're lucky to > live in southern California and not Detroit. > > Anyway, the obligation (it IS an obligation, placed upon Baha'is by God) to > give to the fund, and to the Huquq is spiritual in nature, is between the > individual and God. But, when the institutions purchase a center, they > incurr recurring expenses that must be paid, and so the letters, the > appeals, the convenient envelopes. > > In my opinion, the institutions are caught between a rock and a hard place > as regards this question: the responsibility belongs with the friends to > meet their spiritual obligation, the institutions have been forced to remind > US that it is OUR responsibility. I know from speaking to members of my LSA > that this is discussed virtually every week, and that it pains them > mightily. > > Therefore, I hope that next time you receive your Baha'i mail, and find a > stapled envelope inside, you will sacrifice, in the belief that you are > returning to God what is His. > > Thanks, > > Robert A. Little > "Alma Engels" wrote in message > news:_EC98.25562$Hb6.2332205@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > > Speaking of begging letters with the American Baha'i. For some years it > has > > come stapled shut through the middle of the page with an envelope to be > > filled with a contribution to National. Never mind that donations were > > supposed to be voluntary, etc. For several years, I just peeked at what I > > could without removing the offending staple. Now I do take it off and > read > > a bit. Seems as the pleas for money are as productive as the urging to > > bring in the troops. New declarations decline and the NSA is at the point > > of being (officially at least for who knows how much they really get and > > spend) in the red. > > > > In peace, > > Alma who is not afraid of the bogey man and uses her real name. > > Dermod Ryder wrote in message > > news:a462at$1clrjm$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > > > > > > "Karen Bacquet" wrote in message > > > news:u6bl4t3nv1scf@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > Hi Karen, > > > > > > > And Paul -- you're not doing so badly yourself.:-) > > > > > > Geez, I just love the way you understate everything! The man's a > > > genius - he has pinned Doc Hasbeen to the ropes more times than Bob > > > has sent out begging letters with the American Bahai! > > > > > > As ever, > > > > > > Dermod. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Love, Karen > > > > https://www.bacquet.tk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Time to move on in life... Date: 7/17/2002 4:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: Neptunies2002 Message-id: <20020717042838.16680.00000209@mb-mn.aol.com> Hello to all, I would like to say that I have made the final decision to formally withdraw from the Baha'i Faith. First and foremost I would like to say that my life with the Baha'is and as a member of the Baha'i Faith was a wonderful experience. I shared many good times and I would like to thank each and every one of them for the good they brought into my life. This decision was not hard nor did I feel any pain into coming to this. My life as a Baha'i and now as an ex-Baha'i is the same -- I am content with the choices that I make. My life now is to be a better person in front of God and to worship Him without the need of religious dogma. The circumstances that lead me to leave the Baha'i Faith were a lack of a peace of mind due to obvious problematic issues in the Faith such as scriptural errancy and contradictions in the Creed that I felt were irreconcilable. I will not blame Baha'is for some of the negative experiences I had with a handful of Baha'is, but I must admit that some of the negative experiences I had did hasten my decision to withdraw from the Faith. I will continue to support the Baha'is because I feel that although I am no longer a believe in the Faith, I was a member of a wonderful community whose members were my best friends. Thank you to all on this message board who gave me valuable advice. I appreciate such generosity from the bottom of my heart. God bless you all, Nick From: "Nico" Subject: HELP!!!! Date: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 3:03 AM I know I'm only 19 years old, but I have joined the Baha'i Faith recently, I signed the card and everything, and in the spirit of independent investigation of truth, I have been researching everything I can about the Faith- from Baha'i and non-Baha'i sources. Some people's horror stories about their experiences scare me to death! I have already been scarred by 3 years as a Jehovah's Witnesses..trust me, this is no better. Once one is baptized as a Jehovah's Witness (which thankfully I was not), it is nearly impossible to leave. Is it any easier to leave the Baha'i Faith? I am so scared..I feel like I have resigned my entire life to something that will eventually suffocate me, like it has done for so many others..any advice? Anything would be appreciated- and no more pleas to return to the Faith- I am sick and tired already.From: "Nico" Subject: Re: HELP!!!! Date: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 7:20 PM -Sorry, I should have clarified; I haven't resigned my membership yet, but I plan on doing so right away. The situation is this: a friend of mine, about my age, introduced me to the Baha'i Faith about 3 years ago. I had recently left the Jehovah's Witnesses (who incidentally have still not quit harassing my family), and was very wary of the Baha'i Faith, but I still wanted to learn more about it, so I did. I was blown away by his (friend's) amazing ability to debate Baha'i theological concepts for hours on end- no matter what I threw at him, he seemed to have an answer for everything. This made a major impression on me after several years of the Jehovah's Witnesses and their notable lack of answers to any question I asked. Anyway, I digress :-p. My Baha'i friend was very patient with me and loaned me several Baha'i books to help me in my quest for truth. After reading these books my decision was made- I was going to become a Baha'i, irrespective of the fact that my parents threatened to kick me out of the house if I did so. So I signed the card and became a Baha'i. For some time afterwards I felt that euphoric feeling that people tend to get when they convert to a new faith- I finally had a true spiritual framework around which to frame my life. Afterwards, I noticed my social calendar filling up as well (a big deal for me; I don't exactly fit into the popular crowd *l*), so for the next 2 and a half years or so, I didn't even dream of leaving. But then I began to notice something: I could never get a straight answer out of anyone when I tried to debate with them (an example, one of many more: I was debating with my Baha'i friend not too long ago about the book Thief in the Night by William Sears...my friend's point of view was that it was a great example of how to introduce the Faith to Christians...my position was that Sears needed to get his historical facts and Biblical numbers straight before misleading people the way he did..however unintentionally. Friend then said, "Well, Nicole, you haven't read the book obviously!", to which I said "I read it twice. Have you even read the Bible?" his response "No, I don't feel I need to."-which is silly, since the book is based on Bible prophecy and the Baha'i Faith). Anyway, what I'm getting at here is that I was noticing that when my position was in conflict with the Baha'i position, they would always try and change the subject- and seldom research non-Baha'i sources in their efforts. This put me off. So I did some research of my own and decided that I could no longer be a part of the Faith. But I am still scared. Like I said, I feel like i have resigned myself to something that might be harder to leave than it appears, like the JWs were. After all, it's not simply a matter of not going to Feasts anymore.From: "Nico" Subject: Re: HELP!!!! Date: Friday, November 08, 2002 8:51 PM Just wondering how my name was changed to "weird"; I don't care or anything, I just thought it was odd. Oh well :). Actually, I haven't even received my little introductory package yet, although I sent that card thing in and all. My Baha'i friend told me to wait another couple of weeks for the package. I'll still take a look at it. I got sucked in by the firesides, I think. Having left the Jehovah's Witnesses, with their sterile, by-the-book meetings, I was impressed by the relaxed and welcoming atmosphere of the firesides; but then again, there's an obvious reason for that, which I think most of you know anyway. I can draw a parallel to the Jehovah's Witnesses here; when they first came to our door shortly after I turned 13, my parents readily accepted the invitation to study with them. At first my parents received "the truth" rather lukewarmly (if that's a word), but me, being of an impressionable age, showed great enthusiasm. It was only then that my parents began showing any real interest: the JWs try and get the children first, then the parents join up for fear of losing their children should they not do so. It might be similar with the Baha'is; maybe they don't intimidate parents into joining for fear of breaking up the family (or maybe they do, but I don't know of any time when they have), but now my only reservation about leaving is losing my Baha'i friends- in this case, the threat is an indirect one. -Nico (weird?)From: "Nico" Subject: Re: Bahai internet censorship, AO and "ex bahais" who believe in bahaism Date: Sunday, November 10, 2002 12:48 PM Wow...I'm so glad I'm not a Baha'i right now...who's the cretin here? I almost wish I were a Muslim at moments like these...aren't you supposed to be able to recognize that there are also many other Muslims who don't kill in the name of, well, whatever it is (I'm not well-informed enough to comment on these things) I thought you Baha'is were supposed to be non-judgemental. Its this kind of hypocrisy that is a major part of the reason I left. Terrorism isn't Islam, it's abuse/misinterpretation of Islamic beliefs (maybe a combination of the two? I'm not sure). You should have known that. What happened to religious tolerance? Oh well what the hell would I know; I'm just a kid.From: "Nico" Subject: Re: If I posted this twice sorry there was some technical problems..What do you think of this? Date: Monday, November 11, 2002 12:30 PM Either you are still curious about Baha'i, and want to try a different flavour, or you are in fact a member of such a group, and want to spread more information about it? Which is it? -I didn't know I was either of those things. In fact, I'm neither, tyvm. But I guess you would know better than I would :-p. I have left the Faith and have no intention of going back, but I am curious about it from a sociological standpoint. Good enough for you?From: "Nico" Subject: Re: If I posted this twice sorry there was some technical problems..What do you think of this? Date: Monday, November 11, 2002 5:53 PM I thought it was plainly obvious that I was merely stating my opinion and based on my experiences when I was a Baha'i, and that I was NOT trying to insult or annoy anyone. I, as have many others, am expressing my opinion, as I should have theright to do. I was defending myself against Brian's false allegations. That should have been obvious. As for my earlier posts, I was merely stating my opinion; I didn't intend to annoy anyone; I think that was clear (and no one else has said anything about it), so if you have a problem with me expressing this opinion, that is your problem. My expreience with the Baha'i Faith was not pleasant, and I know there are several others who may have had similar or worse experiences than myself. Does that mean I hate Baha'is? No! Does it mean that I hate the faith? No! I have no problem with people who want to stay in it; their reason to remain in the Faith is their business.From: "Nico" Subject: Re: If I posted this twice sorry there was some technical problems..What do you think of this? Date: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 1:47 AM No wonder so many people have been made to feel unwelcome in the Faith. Pat, there's some typical psychological patterns showing in a lot of other people's posts, including your own; you seem content to just put me into this little psuchological mold. I didn't insult anyone, and no one has complained about me in the past (look for yourself; it's obvious you didn't so that; you just made that assumption without doing any background checks). Honestly; I have absolutely no animosity towards anyone because of their membership in the Faith; if you think that's made up; can't say I blame you- the friend who introduced me to the Faith had the same fear when I announced my decision to leave (which wasn't easy even though i had not been involved for very long). I came here for advice; I don't know if you read my first post on this newsgroup, but it basically said that I was going to leave the Faith, but that I was scared about losing my friends and my community. I was simply inviting people to talk about their experiences, just to get an idea of what other people has been through so i could get an idea. You've confirmed why I left. I did figure on the condescending attitude which many of you have shown to me, possibly due to my age (19), but maybe I was hoping for better (even if I did insult anyone, which I didn't, why are you people so angry? what the hell am I capable of doing to any of you, or to the Faith? Or to your own personal faith, for that matter? Now THAT's odd.