From: K. Paul Johnson[SMTP:pjohnson@vsla.edu] Sent: Monday, February 08, 1999 11:56 AM To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Re: Your Gnosis article According to Frederick Glaysher: > > Paul, > > I'd like to reprint your article "Baha'i Leaders Vexed by On-Line > Critics" from Gnosis in a collection of pieces I mentioned recently > on trb. It would at a minimum include these controversial pieces > from my website: > > A Modest Proposal" 1987 > "The Service of Women" 1988? > "Crisis of Faith" 5/15/96 > Letter: Stephen Birkland, Continental Board of Counsellors 7/16/96 > > Please let me know if this would be acceptable to you and > whether you know of anything else I might include. Hey Fred, I'm OK with it, although have doubts about the market for such a book. Cheers, Paul ---------- From: Juan R Cole[SMTP:jrcole@umich.edu] Sent: Monday, February 15, 1999 1:34 PM To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Re: Collection of Articles Fred: Jackson's email is up under editors at the H-Bahai site. I didn't actually have anything to do with writing that piece in the sense of composing words. I think I was in Egypt and incommunicado. I did, I suppose, help inspire it in the early 1980s with some informal comments to some of the authors. I didn't mind having my name appended, but I was out of the loop then and didn't know about the controversies generated till later. cheers Juan On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > Juan, > > I'm unfamiliar with Jackson. Could you send > me his email if you have it? I thought you were > one of the authors of the Service of Women. > The copy I have has your name on it: > > The Service of Women on the Institutions of the Baha'i Faith > > Anthony A. Lee, Peggy Caton, Richard Hollinger, Marjan Nirou, Nader > Saiedi, Shahin Carrigan, Jackson Armstong-Ingram, and Juan R. I. > Cole. > > Who did write it? > > Fred > > -----Original Message----- > From: Juan Cole > To: Frederick Glaysher > Date: Saturday, February 06, 1999 1:28 PM > Subject: Re: Collection of Articles > > > > > >Dear Fred: > > > >I don't know the history of the Service of Women paper from the inside > >because I wasn't around then; maybe in Egypt. Steve Scholl or Jackson would > >be the ones to ask. > > > > > >cheers Juan > > > > > > > ---------- From: Juan Cole[SMTP:jrcole@umich.edu] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 11:31 AM To: Fred Glaysher Subject: Re: Illinois Request for Disclosure Good! The first thing I think you have to do is to write a letter to the Secretariat at the National Baha'i Center in Wilmette requesting permission to see the complete NSA budget including all salaries and disbursements. Notify them that you understand that as a registered member of the Baha'i faith, you have a right to see the budget under the Illinois and Federal laws that govern non-profit organizations. Register the letter so that they can't pretend they never got it. They will respond in some way. What they may do is say that the records are open for inspection, but only on site, so that you would have to drive to Wilmette to see them. Or they may try to deny you access. Or they may, I suppose, refuse to anwer. Keep all the documentation. If they deny you access or refuse to answer, then your next step will be to contact the Illinois state office in charge of non-profits, in Springfield. You could probably get the exact contact person by simply calling Illinois state government information in Springfield. I've found that people in state government offices are extremely helpful and will even call back, long distance. cheers Juan ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 9:46 AM To: Juan Cole Subject: Illinois Request for Disclosure Juan, Given recent Bahai threats of lawsuits against me, I'm ready to file with whatever government body in Illinois would handle the request for disclosure of Henderson's salary and perks. I'd appreciate it if you'd write the letter and provide me with the correct address. I'll sign it and mail it immediately. Frederick Glaysher 668 Bolinger Rochester Hills, MI 48307 (248) 608-6424 FG@hotmail.com ---------- From: Juan Cole[SMTP:jrcole@umich.edu] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 1:38 PM To: Fred Glaysher Subject: Re: Illinois Request for Disclosure Fred: Well, writing the letter to the Secretariat wouldn't be any work, and it would be interesting to see what they said. If after you get a reply, it looks like there is work, then you could maybe find someone else to take it to the next stage. The point of writing to the secretariat is to see if they a) reply at all and b) if they comply with the law. If they don't reply, or don't comply, you have grounds for a complaint with the Illinois state government. cheers Juan ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 12:05 PM To: Juan Cole Subject: Re: Illinois Request for Disclosure Juan, Sounds like more work than I care to take on alone. I wouldn't be interested in a trip to Wilmette to look at their probably bogus records. Do you know of a lawyer or other person who would take on much or all of the leg work? I have so many projects under way now I can't start another major one though I'd be willing to get the ball rolling. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Juan Cole To: Fred Glaysher Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 12:31 PM Subject: Re: Illinois Request for Disclosure > > Good! > > The first thing I think you have to do is to write a letter to the > Secretariat at the National Baha'i Center in Wilmette requesting permission > to see the complete NSA budget including all salaries and disbursements. > Notify them that you understand that as a registered member of the Baha'i > faith, you have a right to see the budget under the Illinois and Federal > laws that govern non-profit organizations. Register the letter so that > they can't pretend they never got it. > > They will respond in some way. What they may do is say that the records > are open for inspection, but only on site, so that you would have to drive > to Wilmette to see them. Or they may try to deny you access. Or they may, > I suppose, refuse to anwer. Keep all the documentation. If they deny you > access or refuse to answer, then your next step will be to contact the > Illinois state office in charge of non-profits, in Springfield. You could > probably get the exact contact person by simply calling Illinois state > government information in Springfield. I've found that people in state > government offices are extremely helpful and will even call back, long > distance. > > > cheers Juan > > ---------- From: Juan Cole[SMTP:jrcole@umich.edu] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 4:20 PM To: Fred Glaysher Subject: Re: Illinois Request for Disclosure Farid A. Khavari (or maybe it is Fareed A. Khavari) might be your man. I think he can be found on Lycos' people finder, and would be in the national directory. He had his administrative rights taken away over the Travelgate affair of the early '90s, and I heard at one point that he had sued the NSA. cheers Juan ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 3:43 PM To: Juan Cole Subject: Re: Illinois Request for Disclosure Juan, We need a Bahai or ex-Bahai lawyer who will feel the urgency of the matter as we do. Know of one? Or someone with an accounting or economic background? The NSA would have to comply with the Illinois law if contacted by a credible source such as a lawyer. I'll sign just about anything at this point but I can't waste my time and energy running to Wilmette to have the wool pulled over my eyes. I think the incessant pressure is working. The April letter demonstrates that, I believe. There must be some way to crank it up even to a higher public level. They need to hear what we've been saying from just about every public source they try to influence. I'm trying to find the time for a major update of my website but that's not enough. Nor would publishing all of the talisman, arb/trb, and other such files available on a CD-ROM, which I've talked my publisher into doing this fall. Reaching a new level that cannot be ignored requires a different strategy. Got one? Incidentally, if you have a copy of the unedited April manifesto, I'd appreciate your forwarding it to me. Fred ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 5:48 AM To: Juan Cole Subject: Re: Illinois Request for Disclosure Juan, Wasn't he was declared a covenant breaker? Or was it only that he lost his administrative rights? If I get involved with anyone who's a covenant breaker, they accuse me of the same, and then I lose the ground I'm standing on.... Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Juan Cole To: Fred Glaysher Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Illinois Request for Disclosure > > Farid A. Khavari (or maybe it is Fareed A. Khavari) might be your man. I > think he can be found on Lycos' people finder, and would be in the national > directory. He had his administrative rights taken away over the Travelgate > affair of the early '90s, and I heard at one point that he had sued the NSA. > > cheers Juan > > > > ---------- From: Juan Cole[SMTP:jrcole@umich.edu] Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 11:06 AM To: Fred Glaysher Subject: Re: Illinois Request for Disclosure No, Fareed only lost his administrative rights. His father is a martyr, which apparently decided them not to risk the bad publicity of declaring him a CB. You needn't worry. cheers Juan ---------- From: FG[SMTP:glaysher@gateway.net] Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 4:43 PM To: Juan Cole Subject: Re: Illinois Request for Disclosure He's not going to work. I couldn't trust him. Guess it isn't going to happen. Thanks, though. If you think of anybody else, let me know. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Juan Cole To: Fred Glaysher Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 12:06 PM Subject: Re: Illinois Request for Disclosure > > No, Fareed only lost his administrative rights. His father is a martyr, > which apparently decided them not to risk the bad publicity of declaring > him a CB. You needn't worry. > > cheers Juan > > > > ---------- From: Michael McKenny[SMTP:bn872@freenet.carleton.ca] Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 1:28 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Cc: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca Subject: Re: Thanks, Michael! Greetings, Fred. You're welcome. Deepest thanks for all you have done to open up the Baha'i Faith. This is an enormous service you've provided, at tremendous cost, in receiving the tossed rotten eggs of fundamentalists who'd rather the shades remained drawn on their cultification of what Baha'u'llah meant to be broad minded, open and liberal. I, too, expect to be very busy in the future, but I'll ensure I do not simply disappear. I'll look forward to reading your posts whenever you have time to contribute them. And, I'll try to post some of my own when I can. Again, thanks for everything. To A Better Future, Michael > >I appreciate your stating the truth here. I'm >burnt out from three years of lies and deceit >and have taken a little vacation from trb, though >I intend to post the historical footnotes roughly >every 10 to 14 days. Very busy too with my >recent published book and all that entails. > >Best, > >Fred > > >----- >Greetings, Lynne. > How amazing, or is it really so surprising, that you speak of poisoning >the minds of others and suggest those posting opinions at variance to your >own need psychiatric assistance. You invite the response that cultists >unable to endure anything but the cult line may stand most in need of >such assistance. -- "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 12:08 PM To: Michael McKenny Subject: Thanks, Michael! I appreciate your stating the truth here. I'm burnt out from three years of lies and deceit and have taken a little vacation from trb, though I intend to post the historical footnotes roughly every 10 to 14 days. Very busy too with my recent published book and all that entails. Best, Fred ----- Greetings, Lynne. How amazing, or is it really so surprising, that you speak of poisoning the minds of others and suggest those posting opinions at variance to your own need psychiatric assistance. You invite the response that cultists unable to endure anything but the cult line may stand most in need of such assistance. In your view, unless I misread you, to disagree with you is to poison the minds of others. Nonsense. If you feel you are meeting poison from any poster here, then utilize a high tech kill file, if you can't simply avoid activating posts. names of posters are provided in the list of available reading. You know beforehand who you're going to read. Freedom of thought and expression. I can say Maggie Thatcher was the greatest thing since sliced bread, or I can say she was the greatest affliction England endured since the bombing of London. And, let me post my reasoning, and let anyone wishing to disagree challenge my reasoning, as capably as she may. It is the same with current fundamentalism in Haifa. One may hold this is the greatest thing, except for Maggie Thatcher, or one may hold it is the greatest affliction the Baha'i Faith encountered, barring none. Let such positions be presented and unbiased observers may draw their own conclusions. To insist that those who disagree with you move on, in my opinion, is like saying you have the greatest football team there is, as long as none other remain on the field. You concede the inferiority of your position. And, it ought to be strongly underlined that one may feel quite strongly in favour of the Baha'i Faith, and be quite unhappy about how the current members of the UHJ have driven the great spiritual vehicle of human harmony envisioned by the founder of the religion into the ditch of their literalist fundamentalism. This is not being against the Baha'i Faith. You know, some folks really loved Russia, all the time opposing what Stalin and the communists were doing to the place. To the independent investigation of truth, to the freedom of thought and expression, to open-minded acceptance of the validity of a vast variety of viewpoints, to the flowers of spirituality growing through the dirt of imposed literalism in Haifa. To A Better Future, Michael "Lyne Roberts" (lynne@fintray162.freeserve.co.uk) writes: > It is my experience of human psychology that if someone really wants to make > a break with something then they do not spend all their time ,or at least a > great deal of time ,obsessing about it! I mean this with all due respect: I > have no 'beef' with patrick henry , or anyone else who feels wronged by the > baha'i addministration, but really, why try to poison the minds of others! > If the faith is as bad as you say then surely this will become > apparent.Perhaps if a person feels very strongly against the baha'i faith > they should stay well clear of it and move on! > I hear that therapy is very easy to come by in the states and i wish all > who feel wronged a speedy healing process in their life! Sincerely! > lynne@fintray162.freeserve.co.uk -- "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 7:52 PM To: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca Subject: Re: Thanks, Michael! Michael, I hope in the long run others come to know of what was done to you by the uhj. I still feel they wronged you greatly. I haven't been able to update fully my website since about February, and feel guilty for it, but still have and hope to get all of the crucial messages on it regarding you and many of your posts during the intervening months. I fear you are quite right that the cost to me has been tremendous.... The sacrifice of time and energy has been truly overwhelming. I've really lost all respect for the uhj. I often don't know why I don't just quit or walk away. I suppose it's that I actually believe in the words and vision of Baha'u'llah and feel all the more pain that it has been sullied from the inside by such small minds as regularly attack us on trb and elsewhere. It's hard for me to believe it's ever really going to change now. I really only expect more ignorance from the uhj as it continues to retrench into its ever-deepening circle of denial and denunciation. You know where to find me if you need me. Best again, Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael McKenny To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Thanks, Michael! > Greetings, Fred. > You're welcome. > Deepest thanks for all you have done to open up the Baha'i Faith. > This is an enormous service you've provided, at tremendous cost, in > receiving the tossed rotten eggs of fundamentalists who'd rather the > shades remained drawn on their cultification of what Baha'u'llah meant > to be broad minded, open and liberal. > I, too, expect to be very busy in the future, but I'll ensure I do > not simply disappear. I'll look forward to reading your posts whenever > you have time to contribute them. And, I'll try to post some of my own > when I can. > Again, thanks for everything. > To A Better Future, > Michael > > ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 5:44 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Discussion Agenda - trb I would be happy to discuss any of the acts of oppression and tyranny committed by the uhj as documented below on The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm I provide the "headlines" below for newcomers and Bahais on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai. Otherwise, I expect to be posting less frequently this fall, having learnt during the last three years what I need to know about my fellow Bahais and the uhj.... Should the uhj come to its senses and abolish "review," unlikely as it may be, I'd appreciate someone informing me to that effect.... In the meantime, I must return to my literary interests. Others will have to step forward.... Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Newcomers might want to start here: The Bahai Technique (Essential Reading) soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations (Documenting Censorship) alt.religion.bahai FAQ & Chronology (Frequently Asked Questions) Bahais on AOL Late 1998 & early 1999 Bahai Attacks I & II Fall & Spring 1999 Bahai Threats of Lawsuits During Spring 1999 To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 -------------------------------------------------------------------- A comprehensive outline of the major incidents of Bahai censorship: Juan Cole, "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997" --------------------------------------------------------------------- Assorted Controversial Documents "A Modest Proposal" 1987 "The Service of Women" 1988 The Majnun Post 2/7/96 The Pickering Tape 4/96 "Crisis of Faith" 5/15/96 Letter: Stephen Birkland, Continental Board of Counsellors 7/16/96 "Baha'i Leaders Vexed by On-Line Critics" Winter 1997 Stephen Scholl re the suppression of Dialogue Magazine 1997 Mark Towfiq's NO Vote Campaign on BCCA mailing lists 3/12/97 Susan Maneck's NO Vote Campaign on AOL 12/7/98 Juan Cole, Dismissal of NSA Member Judge James F. Nelson... April, 1999 Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Universal House of Justice From the UHJ: 14 October 1997 From the UHJ: 19 December 1997 To the UHJ: December 21, 1997 -------------------------------------- For the full text see https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: thomas saunders-priem[SMTP:paul@saunderspriem.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 9:46 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Baha'i identity Dear Mr Glaysher. I read some of your mail with interest. I have been a Baha'i for over 11 years and have not had the sorts of problems you have experienced. Are you still a Baha'i? I would welcome some communication with you about some of your problems. With warmest regards, Paul Saunders Priem. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 6:03 PM Subject: FAQ for trb and arb --------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for Alt.Religion.Bahai, Talk.Religion.Bahai This FAQ will be reposted approximately every two weeks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- People with only web access might want to use www.deja.com www.reference.com or www.newsguy.com or https://www.remarq.com/ They all offer reading and posting capabilities for people who can't directly access alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai and filter out spam. Alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai are available on America Online (AOL) Keyword, Newsgroups, then search for alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai If your ISP does not offer talk.religion.bahai, follow this news.groupie advice: "If your ISP doesn't have the group shortly, I suggest that you ask the newsmaster there to add it (Try news@isp.net, or newsmaster@isp.net) Ask politely. Include the msg ID of the results posting, and of the newgroup msg." Dave Cornejo's RESULT posting: https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=431106082&CONTEXT=918305125.781648012&hi tnum=0 David Lawrence's newgroup msg creating talk.religion.bahai: https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=434026333&CONTEXT=918304600.713490686&hi tnum=3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: Not all people agree on the interpretations given below. Question #1 "Why create arb or t.r.b.?" ANSWER #1: Because many people believe they experienced or are continuing to experience censorship when attempting to post to soc.religion.bahai. See the quotations from Abdu'l-Baha: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ANSWER #2: Because the Bahai writings support free speech and religious conscience. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ANSWER #3: [fill in the blank according to your own opinion.] Question #2: "Why do the srb moderators oppose trb?" ANSWER: Perhaps they'll supply an answer to place here. (Three years later their NO votes are their only answer.) Question #3: "Are Bahais opposed to freedom of speech and conscience?" ANSWER: Despite glowing words of love and support for other people's opinions, despite the Universal House of Justice stating at least publicly it is not opposed to an unmoderated forum, the record of actual behavior by Bahais and on soc.religion.bahai and the experience of TENS of THOUSANDS of Bahais and people who have left the Bahai Faith give serious reason for concern. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chronology of major events: talk.religion.bahai ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- January 17, 1997: The 1st proposal for talk.religion.bahai was submitted to news.announce.newgroups. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/1stRFD.htm Early March 1997: Mark Towfiq, chairman of the BCCA, the Bahai Computer and Communication Association, posts to three Bahai-only mailing lists a call for Bahais to vote NO against talk.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Towfiq.htm March 1997: soc.religion.bahai bans all discussion of talk.religion.bahai from its newsgroup. This ban is still in effect more than a year and a half later. March 31, 1997: The 1st proposal was defeated 157 YES to 691 NO. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/1stRESULT.htm April 3, 1997: Jonathan Grobe, a non-Bahai, creates alt.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/arb.htm October 14, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases a message stating it has no objection to unmoderated newsgroups: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJ1.htm November 1997: At a time when discussion was highly favorable in support of talk.religion.bahai, the BCCA deprives Frederick Glaysher of access to the private Bahai-only mailing list bahai-discuss and all of its other lists, inflaming Bahai passions against trb. See bahai-discuss archived files and correspondence between Frederick Glaysher and the BCCA committee: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm December 19, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases a message that suggests it does not understand the nature of Usenet interest polling: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJ2.htm January 12, 1998: The 2nd proposal for talk.religion.bahai was submitted. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/2ndRFD.htm February 22, 1998: The 2nd proposal was defeated 109 YES to 65 NO. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/2ndRESULT.htm May 25, 1998: srb bans all messages from Frederick Glaysher that contain his signature file: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb23.htm September 9,1998: America Online (AOL) places a Bahai-inspired TOS against Frederick Glaysher; AOL removes the TOS after considering both sides of the issue, i.e., Bahai messages attacking and threatening him and the experience of others: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm September 14, 1998: soc.religion.bahai extends its ban on Frederick Glaysher's signature file to include all signature files and URLs from all posters, allowing only email addresses and the name of the poster: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srbban.htm October 14, 1998: Soc.religion.bahai moderator Bill Hyman backbites and casts aspersions on proponent Ron House and attempts to undermine the new support for the "neutral" RFD: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb67.htm December 3, 1998: The Call For Votes (CFV) was posted to news.announce.newgroups and news.groups for the 3rd interest poll for talk.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRFD.htm December 7, 1998: Bahai scholar Susan Maneck begins her NO vote campaign on AOL and alt.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm January 10, 1999: Talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRESULT.htm It should be noted that talk.religion.bahai eventually passed despite of the opposition of Bahais. The annotated RESULT may be read at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRESULT.htm The annotated NO voters list may be read at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/NOvoters3rd.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- For past discussion of censorship on soc.religion.bahai and other issues, including censorship within the Bahai community, see the website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/index.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This document at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/FAQ.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 6:04 PM Subject: Bahai Lying: Especially on AOL In August of 1998 I took out an account on AOL. It quickly became apparent that my fellow Bahais were using AOL in such a way as to further withhold knowledge and information from AOL's more than 14 million members. It appeared to me that there were four main issues. Alt.religion.bahai, which had been created in April of 1997 and which had had more than 20,000 messages posted to it, was not even offered in the list of AOL newsgroups. AOL personnel with which I spoke over the phone were very puzzled why it wasn't and even implied that some action would have had to have been taken to keep it from automatically being picked up and added to their newsgroups. It took more than a month of strenuous effort to get AOL to add alt.religion.bahai. On the AOL Bahai Forums it became apparent that Bahais were manipulating and controlling information by NOT making it available, by essentially preserving the frozen, non-functioning state of affairs or the status quo: 1. The Libraries were not accepting new uploads for others then to download and read. 2. The list of Newsgroups on the Main Menu for Bahai offered only soc.religion.bahai with no mention of alt.religion.bahai, or talk.religion.bahai once it was created in January of 1999. Coupled with soc.religion.bahai's suppression of all mention of alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai, this prevents people from even hearing of their existence. 3. The available links for Web Sites on the Main Menu for Bahai did not offered my website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience, though it has to be one of the most visited sites on the Bahai Faith with more than 7,000 hits since May 1998. As the months went by, my repeated attempts to improve these deficiencies met with greater and greater opposition from the Bahai fundamentalists on AOL. Similiarly, my requests, beginning in August of 1998, that the Forum Leader, Mark Foster, who no one had seen for months, resign, for derilection of duty, were increasingly opposed while various excuses were offered for his absence. Not until talk.religion.bahai was passed five months later in January 1999 did he suddenly reappear only to begin immediately reporting absolutely EVERY message I posted to AOL as a TOS. It quickly became clear to me that he was back in order to target and build a case against me to have me suspended from AOL. My account was then temporarily suspended on three different occasions and finally terminated March 6, 1999. Of the four issues, only two have partially been remedied. 1. Alt.religion.bahai and now talk.religion.bahai are available under AOL's Keyword Newsgroups, Expert Add. 2. The Libraries are accepting some uploads, though Foster banned the 15+ megabytes I uploaded in late February of my entire archive of discussion for talk.religion.bahai and which is at least available on my website. It's obvious Foster is finding pretexts for suppressing further uploads. While Foster has claimed since mid-January that alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai would be added to the Main Menu under Newsgroups, he continued to make excuses for it not happening. As of March 9, 1999 they were not yet listed under Newsgroups along with soc.religion.bahai. All of these factors, coupled with Mark Foster's abuse of his position as Forum Leader and his harassing and targetting of dissenting voices, not only mine, leaves no doubt that he and other Bahais, including some among the Bahai Administration, are involved in manipulating and censoring discourse on AOL. For an instance of "back-channel" email coercion on AOL see https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm For an instance of Foster's double standard handling fundamentalist Bahais see Susan Maneck's accusations on AOL against me of "slander" and references to my views as "garbage" and "litter": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm The immediate pretext for terminating my account, according to the AOL official with whom I spoke on the phone, was that I had pointed out in a newly created Folder called Censorship that I and other AOL members had requested a Folder entitled Bahai Censorship and thereby undermined the authority of the Forum Leader.... In closing let me add that AOL personnel are extremely uninformed about the Bahai Faith, especially its practice of censorship, and its ability to exploit the TOS system.... Half a megabyte of messages documenting Bahai censorship on AOL may be found at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 10, 1999 6:08 PM Subject: Re: Bahai Lying: REVISED Discussion Agenda - trb I would be happy to discuss any of the acts of oppression and tyranny committed by the uhj as documented below on The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm I provide the "headlines" below for newcomers and Bahais on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai. Otherwise, I expect to be posting less frequently this fall, having learnt during the last three years what I needed to know about my fellow Bahais and the uhj.... Should anything be posted that might be especially suitable for my website, I'd appreciate someone emailing a copy to patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com with "Bahai" in the subject line. Should the uhj come to its senses and abolish "review," unlikely as it may be, I'd appreciate someone informing me to that effect.... In the meantime, I must return to my literary interests. Others will have to step forward.... Patrick Henry.... The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Newcomers might want to start here: The Bahai Technique (Essential Reading) soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations (Documenting Censorship) alt.religion.bahai FAQ & Chronology (Frequently Asked Questions) Bahais on AOL Late 1998 & early 1999 Bahai Attacks I & II Fall & Spring 1999 Bahai Threats of Lawsuits During Spring 1999 To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 -------------------------------------------------------------------- A comprehensive outline of the major incidents of Bahai censorship: Juan Cole, "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997" --------------------------------------------------------------------- Assorted Controversial Documents "A Modest Proposal" 1987 "The Service of Women" 1988 The Majnun Post 2/7/96 The Pickering Tape 4/96 "Crisis of Faith" 5/15/96 Letter: Stephen Birkland, Continental Board of Counsellors 7/16/96 "Baha'i Leaders Vexed by On-Line Critics" Winter 1997 Stephen Scholl re the suppression of Dialogue Magazine 1997 Mark Towfiq's NO Vote Campaign on BCCA mailing lists 3/12/97 Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - NSA letter warns Australian Bahais against him 11/4/97 Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - his response to Bahai NSA Surveillance 9/7/99 Susan Maneck's NO Vote Campaign on AOL 12/7/98 Juan Cole, Dismissal of NSA Member Judge James F. Nelson... April, 1999 Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Universal House of Justice From the UHJ: 14 October 1997 From the UHJ: 19 December 1997 To the UHJ: December 21, 1997 -------------------------------------- For the full text of the messages above, see https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997," which surveys the many, many incidents of censorship and oppression that have taken place in the Bahai faith during the last decade or more: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 4:29 PM Subject: Michael McKenny page UPDATED https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/McKenny.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Mckenny11.htm -- Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, September 19, 1999 9:50 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Discussion Agenda - trb I would be happy to discuss any of the acts of oppression and tyranny committed by the uhj as documented below on The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm I provide the "headlines" below for newcomers and Bahais on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai. Otherwise, I expect to be posting less frequently this fall, having learnt during the last three years what I needed to know about my fellow Bahais and the uhj.... Should anything be posted that might be especially suitable for my website, I'd appreciate someone emailing a copy to patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com with "Bahai" in the subject line. Should the uhj come to its senses and abolish "review," unlikely as it may be, I'd appreciate someone informing me to that effect.... In the meantime, I must return to my literary interests, prepared for, and now accepting, a more arduous psychomachia..... Others will have to step forward.... Patrick Henry.... The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Newcomers might want to start here: The Bahai Technique (Essential Reading) soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations (Documenting Censorship) alt.religion.bahai FAQ & Chronology (Frequently Asked Questions) Bahais on AOL Late 1998 & early 1999 Bahai Attacks I & II Fall & Spring 1999 Bahai Threats of Lawsuits During Spring 1999 To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 -------------------------------------------------------------------- A comprehensive outline of the major incidents of Bahai censorship: Juan Cole, "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997" --------------------------------------------------------------------- Assorted Controversial Documents "A Modest Proposal" 1987 "The Service of Women" 1988 The Majnun Post 2/7/96 The Pickering Tape 4/96 "Crisis of Faith" 5/15/96 Letter: Stephen Birkland, Continental Board of Counsellors 7/16/96 "Baha'i Leaders Vexed by On-Line Critics" Winter 1997 Stephen Scholl re the suppression of Dialogue Magazine 1997 Mark Towfiq's NO Vote Campaign on BCCA mailing lists 3/12/97 Susan Maneck's NO Vote Campaign on AOL 12/7/98 Michael McKenny - uhj throws him out of the Bahai faith 7/97 Nima Hazini-ex-Bahai-NSA letter warns Australian Bahais against him 11/4/97 Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - his response to Bahai NSA Surveillance 9/7/99 Juan Cole, Dismissal of NSA Member Judge James F. Nelson... April, 1999 Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Universal House of Justice From the UHJ: 14 October 1997 From the UHJ: 19 December 1997 To the UHJ: December 21, 1997 -------------------------------------- For the full text of the messages above, see https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997," which surveys the many, many incidents of censorship and oppression that have taken place in the Bahai faith during the last decade or more: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 19, 1999 9:57 AM Subject: scam: Revised - trb Discussion Agenda I would be happy to discuss any of the acts of oppression and tyranny committed by the uhj as documented below on The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm I provide the "headlines" below for newcomers and Bahais on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai. Otherwise, I expect to be posting less frequently this fall, having learnt during the last three years what I needed to know about my fellow Bahais and the uhj.... Should anything be posted that might be especially suitable for my website, I'd appreciate someone emailing a copy to patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com with "Bahai" in the subject line. Should the uhj come to its senses and abolish "review," unlikely as it may be, I'd appreciate someone informing me to that effect.... In the meantime, I must return to my literary interests, prepared for, and now accepting, a more arduous psychomachia..... Others will have to step forward.... Patrick Henry.... The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Newcomers might want to start here: The Bahai Technique (Essential Reading) soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations (Documenting Censorship) alt.religion.bahai FAQ & Chronology (Frequently Asked Questions) Bahais on AOL Late 1998 & early 1999 Bahai Attacks I & II Fall & Spring 1999 Bahai Threats of Lawsuits During Spring 1999 To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 -------------------------------------------------------------------- A comprehensive outline of the major incidents of Bahai censorship: Juan Cole, "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997" --------------------------------------------------------------------- Assorted Controversial Documents "A Modest Proposal" 1987 "The Service of Women" 1988 The Majnun Post 2/7/96 The Pickering Tape 4/96 "Crisis of Faith" 5/15/96 Letter: Stephen Birkland, Continental Board of Counsellors 7/16/96 "Baha'i Leaders Vexed by On-Line Critics" Winter 1997 Stephen Scholl re the suppression of Dialogue Magazine 1997 Mark Towfiq's NO Vote Campaign on BCCA mailing lists 3/12/97 Susan Maneck's NO Vote Campaign on AOL 12/7/98 Michael McKenny - uhj throws him out of the Bahai faith 7/97 Nima Hazini-ex-Bahai-NSA letter warns Australian Bahais against him 11/4/97 Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - his response to Bahai NSA Surveillance 9/7/99 Juan Cole, Dismissal of NSA Member Judge James F. Nelson... April, 1999 Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Universal House of Justice From the UHJ: 14 October 1997 From the UHJ: 19 December 1997 To the UHJ: December 21, 1997 -------------------------------------- For the full text of the messages above, see https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997," which surveys the many, many incidents of censorship and oppression that have taken place in the Bahai faith during the last decade or more: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 19, 1999 9:57 AM Subject: SCAM: uhj - Bahai From: FG To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor ; bahai-faith @ makelist.com Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM July 24,1998 Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in Iran would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the international community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, always courting the President and other members of the government, has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents as I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many individuals, Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within the Bahai community and administration. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more than a year and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat twice now, along with the collusion of other Bahais, the creation of an unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/index.htm Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under Bahai-Discuss Archives. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA has approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban for more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding talk.religion.bahai. The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," if you will, of Bahai censorship? Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai or Newsgroups ------ Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 19, 1999 9:58 AM Subject: SCAM: Lawsuit Threats from Bahais Given the Bahai threats of lawsuits against me during the spring and early summer of 1999 let me say I have never committed slander against any individual, Bahai or otherwise, nor against any Bahai institution. If anyone has been slandered on talk.religion.bahai, it is I by the constant character assassination Bahais have marshalled against me for nearly three years. I'd be happy to appear in court and present an American judge and jury with the evidence of Bahai lies, deceit, censorship, and tyranny over the last decade. I highly doubt any legitimately established jury would look favorably on what Bahai fundamentalists have done to the Walbridges, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Stephen Scholl, and many, many other, indeed, TENS of THOUSANDS, of American ex-Bahais.... I'd be happy to appear in an American court and present the judge and jury with the many passages from the Bahai Writings in which the Figures speak favorably of free speech and conscience, such as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. Only one of the nine tyrants on Mt. Carmel could distort such passages to mean the kinds of things they have had the gall to foist on American Bahais in their statement this April, which Professor Juan Cole has candidly and accurately referred to as an "outburst of vehement ignorance." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Bahais falsely accuse me of slander. Far from slandering the UHJ, I have stood up to Bahai fundamentalists and honestly spoken my conscience. They are free to call that "slander." I doubt any judge or jury in the West would call it such, especially after reading the EVIDENCE and reflecting on the enormous discrepancy between the sycophantic treatment leaders in government, the UN, and the media regularly receive from Bahais who are always interested in attempting to exploit their positions of power for one reason or another and the reality of abuse of the most basic human rights now well documented on Professor Juan Cole's website and on mine. I trust the American legal system to protect me from such organizations and fundamentalist reprobates. The objective observer will note the Bahai tactic of resorting to threats and intimidation instead of engaging in discussion of the actual incidents of censorship and oppression, extensively noted in "The Bahai Technique." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm Such tactics remind me of a comment by Dr. Martin Luther King in his Letter from Birmingham Jail: "You deplore the demonstrations taking place in Birmingham. But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations." Fundamentalist Bahais typify this same mentality. They rail and threaten me, and others who dare speak their minds, but express no concern whatsoever for the underlying conditions of censorship and oppression that have led to distrust and contempt for the UHJ and its fascist distortion of Baha'u'llah's Teachings. Everything I have said is a matter of religious conscience protected under the US Constitution. My Bahai membership card proves it, and a scanned copy of it may be found on my website. I would be happy to present the original to any judge or jury in the land. "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." --Thomas Jefferson -- Patrick Henry "Give me liberty or give me death." Visit The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997," which surveys the many, many incidents of censorship and oppression that have taken place in the Bahai faith during the last decade or more: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm Saman Ahmadi wrote in message news:376EF2DE.221BD43@earthlink.net... > > I have stated that I may sue you - that is singular. I am not aware of > anyone else's attempt. BTW, my suing you is not a threat - a threat > is I will do this if you do that. You have already crossed that line. > I > said I would first take it up with Dejanews - Roger pointed out that > you were not using Dejanews to post your articles so I suppose it > is bigfoot at first. > > Now, if it gets to the point that I decide to sue you, I will offer > anyone > who wishes to join in a class-action suit, if that is legally possible. > > My feet are firmly on the ground - I am not joking or mincing words. > > Saman Ahmadi > > > Patrick Henry wrote: > > > Given the recurrent Bahai threats of lawsuits against me, > > let me say I have never committed slander. > > P.S. Ever heard of the Furman tapes? > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 19, 1999 9:59 AM Subject: SCAM: soc.religion.bahai Robert J. Pease, December 5, 1998: "I support your efforts to expose SRB as a fundamentalist group." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb84.htm Ron House: "I think the following is a clear case of malicious rejection of an article by the worst of the moderators of soc.religion.bahai." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb53.htm Timothy Mulligan: "(Sigh) Fred, I'm beginning to think you're right about those SRB moderators." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb59.htm RobertNik: "these guys are pompous arseholes IMHO." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb54.htm Bruce Burrill: "What are Baha'i afraid of?" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb60.htm Zuteflute: "Frankly I could not see anything in the letter I wrote which would prompt someone to ask whether or not I am a Baha'i." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb50.htm YU ZIR: "But as an outsider, I can perhaps see the point Fred Glaysher is making, and which point none of SRB's defenders seem to address." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb46.htm Matthew Cromer: "The current moderators regulate the contents--posting articles which they agree with...." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb47.htm Kavosh Soltani, December 9, 1998: "So many Bahais on these forums have shown to be ready to forget logic and reason, ignore clear evidence and Word of God, and come up with exactly the same line of tired and inaccurate excuses and arguments to justify their position, that it can not be a simple coincidence." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb77.htm Shakti3, December 4, 1998: "Sorry to hear that you've been surpressed on srb. Your comments were alway very "right on." Altho it does not surprise me one bit, seeing the way these newsgroups operate." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Ex7.htm Harold Shinsato: "It seems like there is an oppression over the Baha'i Faith." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb33.htm Steve Tomljenovic, December 3, 1998: "The moderators are a bit overzealous at times. Since all the controversy started, it has gotten worse." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb79.htm Laeterna: "To say I was flabberghasted at this type of "moderating" was putting it mildly indeed." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/censored2.htm Guy Macon" "Please explain which portion of the charter the following post violates." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/censored1.htm Robin Peters: "I think you're to be commended for your persistence in the face of consistent censorship." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb43.htm jgoldberg: "I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. " https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb57.htm Ruletherod, November 17, 1998: "Too much damage has already been done in the name and to the name of Baha'u'llah by right-wing administrative bullies, linear-thinking apologists, and doctrinaire-fundamentalists. You can't just blame it all on the critics." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb76.htm Many other similar messages may be found on my web site under soc.religion.bahai censorship. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 19, 1999 9:59 AM Subject: SCAM: Attacks by Bahais Incessant Bahai attacks upon my freedom of speech and liberty, as well as on others, have made it necessary for me to adopt a persona for my own protection and well being. Other measures have been taken. During the late winter and spring of 1999, Bahais twice flooded my hotmail account with up to 1000 messages per day resulting in considerable inconvenience and expenditure of time and effort to block, and ultimately close, the offending accounts; they have, by using numerous Bahai trolls, especially Gyr Falcon, slandered, maligned, and caricatured me in a further effort to discredit me and portray me on talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere as a disturbed and errant individual; through concerted false charges and allegations against me, they have now succeeded in deceiving Hotmail into closing my email account, which I depended on for a considerable part of my income and livelihood. For documentation of many similar incidents of Bahai oppression during the last decade, see The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm -- Patrick Henry "Give me liberty, or give me death." Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com ---- Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 19, 1999 10:00 AM Subject: SCAM: Bahais Bullying I'm alarmed at the Bahai attempts, during May of 1999, at character assassination, ridicule, and generally portraying me and others as disturbed individuals. This tactic has been used for over three years and continues to be used against me and other Bahais and non-Bahais or ex-Bahais. I have never claimed to be perfect. At times I have apologized to Bahais, Muslims, and other non-Bahais when I felt, or was convinced, that I was wrong or had spoken unfairly. I find the constant technique to portray me as a megalomanic or paranoid quite offensive. Similarly, the tactic of accusing me of spam for posting my opinions is calculated to discredit the validity of my and others' concerns regarding censorship in Bahai forums and has also been used on AOL. Such accusations reveal the frustration that Bahai fundamentalists apparently feel over my having found ways of enduring and resisting the onslaught of their concerted attacks, while preserving a historical record on a markedly ephermeral medium for innocent Bahais and non-Bahais.... Fair-minded Bahai and non-Bahai observers may judge for themselves whether my and others' allegations of censorship are valid by reading the record preserved under "Assorted Controversial Documents" on my website at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm As further corroboration that I am not the only person concerned with the intolerance and censorship that has overtaken the Bahai Faith, I recommend Professor Juan Cole's new book Modernity & the Millennium: The Genesis of the Bahai Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East, available through Columbia University Press or Amazon.com at https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0231110812/002-4036721-8058448 In his conclusion, which would never have passed the system of Bahai "review" that the UHJ imposes on all publications brought out under its tight control, Professor Cole, of the Department of History at The University of Michigan, quite accurately identifies the distortions that have been wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings: "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriachy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth- century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed." (196) He himself and many others, as evidence under the "Assorted Controversial Documents," have suffered at the hands of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the religion: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement." (201) These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on AOL, talk.religion.bahai, and alt.religion.bahai for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. As a Bahai for more than 23 years, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. The UHJ is also in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums of public discussion. I recommend all newcomers to these matters read "The Bahai Technique": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm On The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 19, 1999 10:01 AM Subject: SCAM: Bahai Techniques - Censorship During the last several years or more a number of observers have noted the common methods many Bahais use to avoid various issues or discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: Frederick Glaysher, May 12, 1992: "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [over 22]. The usual stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the Truth." Ron House, November 14, 1997: "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so much he says something intemperate, then point out how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this technique works, so I've been making a conscious effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. At any other time, they would overlook faults, as Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode they go for the jugular. Very sad." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/House2.htm Frederick Glaysher, June 1998: "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to talk.religion.bahai." "More than twenty different people on my web site have posted messages explaining their experience with srb censorship yet many srb Bahais NEVER address their concerns. Ignoring such charges will not make them go away. NO ONE has to "try" to link the trb interest poll with censorship on srb; the moderators themselves have done that by suppressing droves of people for years. There are many people who believe such suppression is part and parcel of the Bahai community as it exists today. A YES vote need not necessarily support such a belief. There are other reasons Bahais might vote YES." Fran Baker, May 1998: "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a group acts this way. Very scary." Dr. Juan Cole, June 12, 1998: "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified threats of declaring him or her a CB to silence the individual, and if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the gullibility of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket." "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization ostensibly committed to tolerance!" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Cole10.htm K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in their condemnations of their fellow believers, I would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not character assassination by innuendo, what is?" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson18.htm Gibro28W, October 12, 1998: "In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out as "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs of its members in the first place." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb73.htm Barthaman on September 14, 1998: "Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too. Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)-- after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion? Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on, however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud. Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb66.htm Juan Cole wrote, February 23, 1999: "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon them to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do not fall silent." "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech about the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You will note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long-term heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose with the facts,' and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused of all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been backbitten by them." "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute." "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five years. He can explain it to you." Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson21.htm And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb65.htm Comments on the related techniques of Susan Maneck: Juan Cole, February 13, 1999: "It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning, they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion." "I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled with hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just have shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is about has anything at all to do with *universities*!" Frederick Glaysher, February 15, 1999: "Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better, since the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. And it then allows her to claim pretty much anything she wants to while seeming to have discredited her opponent. Further, she relies on the tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By shrieking "slander" and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates whatever the topic or content might be and that allows her to appear to win what is often a narrowly legalistic point or interpretation." "All of this is done, of course, in conjunction with her employing the more common Bahai techniques of intimidation and psychological demonization and terrorism." Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm This document at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 19, 1999 10:01 AM Subject: A FAQ for arBahai and trBahai ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for Alt.Religion.Bahai, Talk.Religion.Bahai This FAQ will be reposted approximately every two weeks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- People with only web access might want to use www.deja.com www.reference.com or www.newsguy.com or https://www.remarq.com/ They all offer reading and posting capabilities for people who can't directly access alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai and filter out spam. Alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai are available on America Online (AOL) Keyword, Newsgroups, then search for alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai If your ISP does not offer talk.religion.bahai, follow this news.groupie advice: "If your ISP doesn't have the group shortly, I suggest that you ask the newsmaster there to add it (Try news@isp.net, or newsmaster@isp.net) Ask politely. Include the msg ID of the results posting, and of the newgroup msg." Dave Cornejo's RESULT posting: https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=431106082&CONTEXT=918305125.781648012&hi tnum=0 David Lawrence's newgroup msg creating talk.religion.bahai: https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=434026333&CONTEXT=918304600.713490686&hi tnum=3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: Not all people agree on the interpretations given below. Question #1 "Why create arb or t.r.b.?" ANSWER #1: Because many people believe they experienced or are continuing to experience censorship when attempting to post to soc.religion.bahai. See the quotations from Abdu'l-Baha: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ANSWER #2: Because the Bahai writings support free speech and religious conscience. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ANSWER #3: [fill in the blank according to your own opinion.] Question #2: "Why do the srb moderators oppose trb?" ANSWER: Perhaps they'll supply an answer to place here. (Three years later their NO votes are their only answer.) Question #3: "Are Bahais opposed to freedom of speech and conscience?" ANSWER: Despite glowing words of love and support for other people's opinions, despite the Universal House of Justice stating at least publicly it is not opposed to an unmoderated forum, the record of actual behavior by Bahais and on soc.religion.bahai and the experience of TENS of THOUSANDS of Bahais and people who have left the Bahai Faith give serious reason for concern. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chronology of major events: talk.religion.bahai ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- January 17, 1997: The 1st proposal for talk.religion.bahai was submitted to news.announce.newgroups. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/1stRFD.htm Early March 1997: Mark Towfiq, chairman of the BCCA, the Bahai Computer and Communication Association, posts to three Bahai-only mailing lists a call for Bahais to vote NO against talk.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Towfiq.htm March 1997: soc.religion.bahai bans all discussion of talk.religion.bahai from its newsgroup. This ban is still in effect more than a year and a half later. March 31, 1997: The 1st proposal was defeated 157 YES to 691 NO. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/1stRESULT.htm April 3, 1997: Jonathan Grobe, a non-Bahai, creates alt.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/arb.htm October 14, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases a message stating it has no objection to unmoderated newsgroups: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJ1.htm November 1997: At a time when discussion was highly favorable in support of talk.religion.bahai, the BCCA deprives Frederick Glaysher of access to the private Bahai-only mailing list bahai-discuss and all of its other lists, inflaming Bahai passions against trb. See bahai-discuss archived files and correspondence between Frederick Glaysher and the BCCA committee: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm December 19, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases a message that suggests it does not understand the nature of Usenet interest polling: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJ2.htm January 12, 1998: The 2nd proposal for talk.religion.bahai was submitted. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/2ndRFD.htm February 22, 1998: The 2nd proposal was defeated 109 YES to 65 NO. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/2ndRESULT.htm May 25, 1998: srb bans all messages from Frederick Glaysher that contain his signature file: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb23.htm September 9,1998: America Online (AOL) places a Bahai-inspired TOS against Frederick Glaysher; AOL removes the TOS after considering both sides of the issue, i.e., Bahai messages attacking and threatening him and the experience of others: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm September 14, 1998: soc.religion.bahai extends its ban on Frederick Glaysher's signature file to include all signature files and URLs from all posters, allowing only email addresses and the name of the poster: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srbban.htm October 14, 1998: Soc.religion.bahai moderator Bill Hyman backbites and casts aspersions on proponent Ron House and attempts to undermine the new support for the "neutral" RFD: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb67.htm December 3, 1998: The Call For Votes (CFV) was posted to news.announce.newgroups and news.groups for the 3rd interest poll for talk.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRFD.htm December 7, 1998: Bahai scholar Susan Maneck begins her NO vote campaign on AOL and alt.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm January 10, 1999: Talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRESULT.htm It should be noted that talk.religion.bahai eventually passed despite of the opposition of Bahais. The annotated RESULT may be read at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRESULT.htm The annotated NO voters list may be read at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/NOvoters3rd.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- For past discussion of censorship on soc.religion.bahai and other issues, including censorship within the Bahai community, see the website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/index.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This document at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/FAQ.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 19, 1999 10:02 AM Subject: SCAM: By Bahais on AOL In August of 1998 I took out an account on AOL. It quickly became apparent that my fellow Bahais were using AOL in such a way as to further withhold knowledge and information from AOL's more than 14 million members. It appeared to me that there were four main issues. Alt.religion.bahai, which had been created in April of 1997 and which had had more than 20,000 messages posted to it, was not even offered in the list of AOL newsgroups. AOL personnel with which I spoke over the phone were very puzzled why it wasn't and even implied that some action would have had to have been taken to keep it from automatically being picked up and added to their newsgroups. It took more than a month of strenuous effort to get AOL to add alt.religion.bahai. On the AOL Bahai Forums it became apparent that Bahais were manipulating and controlling information by NOT making it available, by essentially preserving the frozen, non-functioning state of affairs or the status quo: 1. The Libraries were not accepting new uploads for others then to download and read. 2. The list of Newsgroups on the Main Menu for Bahai offered only soc.religion.bahai with no mention of alt.religion.bahai, or talk.religion.bahai once it was created in January of 1999. Coupled with soc.religion.bahai's suppression of all mention of alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai, this prevents people from even hearing of their existence. 3. The available links for Web Sites on the Main Menu for Bahai did not offered my website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience, though it has to be one of the most visited sites on the Bahai Faith with more than 7,000 hits since May 1998. As the months went by, my repeated attempts to improve these deficiencies met with greater and greater opposition from the Bahai fundamentalists on AOL. Similiarly, my requests, beginning in August of 1998, that the Forum Leader, Mark Foster, who no one had seen for months, resign, for derilection of duty, were increasingly opposed while various excuses were offered for his absence. Not until talk.religion.bahai was passed five months later in January 1999 did he suddenly reappear only to begin immediately reporting absolutely EVERY message I posted to AOL as a TOS. It quickly became clear to me that he was back in order to target and build a case against me to have me suspended from AOL. My account was then temporarily suspended on three different occasions and finally terminated March 6, 1999. Of the four issues, only two have partially been remedied. 1. Alt.religion.bahai and now talk.religion.bahai are available under AOL's Keyword Newsgroups, Expert Add. 2. The Libraries are accepting some uploads, though Foster banned the 15+ megabytes I uploaded in late February of my entire archive of discussion for talk.religion.bahai and which is at least available on my website. It's obvious Foster is finding pretexts for suppressing further uploads. While Foster has claimed since mid-January that alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai would be added to the Main Menu under Newsgroups, he continued to make excuses for it not happening. As of March 9, 1999 they were not yet listed under Newsgroups along with soc.religion.bahai. All of these factors, coupled with Mark Foster's abuse of his position as Forum Leader and his harassing and targetting of dissenting voices, not only mine, leaves no doubt that he and other Bahais, including some among the Bahai Administration, are involved in manipulating and censoring discourse on AOL. For an instance of "back-channel" email coercion on AOL see https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm For an instance of Foster's double standard handling fundamentalist Bahais see Susan Maneck's accusations on AOL against me of "slander" and references to my views as "garbage" and "litter": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm The immediate pretext for terminating my account, according to the AOL official with whom I spoke on the phone, was that I had pointed out in a newly created Folder called Censorship that I and other AOL members had requested a Folder entitled Bahai Censorship and thereby undermined the authority of the Forum Leader.... In closing let me add that AOL personnel are extremely uninformed about the Bahai Faith, especially its practice of censorship, and its ability to exploit the TOS system.... Half a megabyte of messages documenting Bahai censorship on AOL may be found at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:glaysher@mi-mls.com] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 1999 5:05 PM To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: agenda updated I would be happy to discuss any of the acts of oppression and tyranny committed by the uhj as documented below on The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm I provide the "headlines" below for newcomers and Bahais on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai. Otherwise, I expect to be posting less frequently this fall, having learnt during the last three years what I needed to know about my fellow Bahais and the uhj.... I am content to have played a central role in the creation or propagation of alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai, forums where others may now speak freely about the Bahai faith. Should anything be posted that might be especially suitable for my website, I'd appreciate someone emailing a copy to patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com with "Bahai" in the subject line. Should the uhj come to its senses and abolish "review," unlikely as it may be, I'd appreciate someone informing me to that effect.... In the meantime, I must return to my literary interests, prepared for, and now accepting, a more arduous psychomachia..... Others will have to step forward.... Patrick Henry.... The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ ------------------------------------------------------------------- Newcomers might want to start here: The Bahai Technique (Essential Reading) soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations (Documenting Censorship) alt.religion.bahai FAQ & Chronology (Frequently Asked Questions) Bahais on AOL Late 1998 & early 1999 Bahai Attacks I & II Fall & Spring 1999 Bahai Threats of Lawsuits During Spring 1999 To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 -------------------------------------------------------------------- A comprehensive outline of the major incidents of Bahai censorship: Juan Cole, "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997" Juan Cole, "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Baha'i Scriptures" --------------------------------------------------------------------- Assorted Controversial Documents "A Modest Proposal" 1987 "The Service of Women" 1988 The Majnun Post 2/7/96 The Pickering Tape 4/96 "Crisis of Faith" 5/15/96 Letter: Stephen Birkland, Continental Board of Counsellors 7/16/96 "Baha'i Leaders Vexed by On-Line Critics" Winter 1997 Stephen Scholl re the suppression of Dialogue Magazine 1997 Mark Towfiq's NO Vote Campaign on BCCA mailing lists 3/12/97 Susan Maneck's NO Vote Campaign on AOL 12/7/98 Michael McKenny - uhj throws him out of the Bahai faith 7/97 Nima Hazini-ex-Bahai-NSA letter warns Australian Bahais against him 11/4/97 Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - his response to Bahai NSA Surveillance 9/7/99 Juan Cole, Dismissal of NSA Member Judge James F. Nelson... April, 1999 Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Universal House of Justice From the UHJ: 14 October 1997 From the UHJ: 19 December 1997 To the UHJ: December 21, 1997 -------------------------------------- For the full text of the messages above, see https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997," which surveys the many, many incidents of censorship and oppression that have taken place in the Bahai faith during the last decade or more: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 1999 4:30 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Death of JB Marangella ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com, the discussion network, offers free web-based access to more than 50,000 high-quality discussion forums. Come and visit us on the web at https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Death of JB Marangella From: "Mesbah Javid" <11111174NoSpam@3web.net> Date: 1999/10/11 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai JJ, Last night I had a terrible nightmare in which your dad was dead and just like Mirza Yahya no one was there to bury him, and even you refused to wash him, and the grave digger was fleeing away, and you were saying that he lived long enough to see that all his efforts came to naught and during his own lifetime vitnessed the glory of the Faith which for decades had so foolishly, so shamelessly and pitifully striven to extinguish. Thanks God it was only a nightmare. (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c7ttd85$nd3$1@iceman.tac.net%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 12:17 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Another ex-Bahai speaks out! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com, the discussion network, offers free web-based access to more than 50,000 high-quality discussion forums. Come and visit us on the web at https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Another ex-Bahai speaks out! From: berekiah1@my-deja.com Date: 1999/10/18 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.misc,soc.culture.israel fyi. Personal testimony of a recent ex-Baha'i. Berekiah -- My Life in the Baha'i Community It has taken me a long time to decide whether or not to publicly tell the story of how I became a Baha'i and why I left the Baha'i community. However, I've decided that I am probably not important enough for anyone to persecute. Also, I find that there isn't much written about the experience of Baha'is in small communities, even though most Baha'i communities in the U.S. have less than 30 members. This is not mean to be an examination of philosophical differences with the Baha'i Faith, but a simple recounting of my experience. For the sake of continuity, I have decided not to digress in order to explain Baha'i terms and history. Such information is abundantly available in other Baha'i websites and publications, for non-Baha'is who are interested. I first heard of the Baha'i Faith through a friend of mine, who was an inactive Baha'i. I almost certainly would never become a Baha'i had I been exposed to the typical teaching project. However, I became intrigued because of the teachings on the unity of religion, which is something I already believed in. At first, I was completely unaware that a Baha'i group was just forming in my town, but I simply investigated on my own for about three months, before even meeting the local Baha'is. The Writings of Baha'u'llah were what made me a Baha'i. I decided that if these writings were not a revelation from God, then such revelation does not exist. That is still true for me. Take Baha'u'llah away, and the whole Western prophetic tradition falls like so many dominoes. So if the reader wonders "Why did she stay so long when she was so unhappy?", that is the main explaination. That, and the fact I made a commitment and felt I had an obligation to make it work. After enrolling in the Baha'i community, I endured a serious of three shocks that I never quite got over, although I tried for many years: The first, and actually the least important was the discovery that in spite of the Baha'i principle of equality between men and women, women cannot be elected to the Universal House of Justice, which is the supreme elected body in the Baha'i world. The reason for this is that 'Abdul-Baha said that this must be the case, and that the reasons for it would be revealed in the future. Like most Baha'is, I was not willing to abandon the Faith on that account, saying "Well, I don't like it, but I guess I have to live with it." The composition of the House of Justice is a rather distant matter and does not intrude on the local life of the community, where women are very much a part of the authority structure. Some scholars have questioned whether the prohibition of women was meant to be a permanent and fundamental principle of administration. This is an interesting debate, but I would not expect it to change anything in the near future. The second shock was, although I had been told that Baha'is do not prosyletize, there was intense pressure to "teach the Faith." In fact, community life is supposed to be organized around this mission. I don't believe that this is a deliberate attempt at deception. The idea that "prosyletizing" and "teaching" are different come from Shoghi Effendi, who was Oxford-educated and had a real feeling for fine distinctions between words. For him, "teaching" was explaining the principles of the Faith to an interested listener, while proselytizing was a more aggressive attempt at conversion. However, the average American doesn't see much difference between "proselytizing", "converting", "teaching" or "sharing". It all amounts to the same thing, and most people find it pretty obnoxious. Another thing that happens is that frustration at the slow growth rate of the American Baha'i community leads some believers to cross the line. There actually is a good deal of pressure to do so. A lot of this pressure is internal: the Writings are clear that teaching the Faith is one of the obligations of a Baha'i. However, there always seems to be other people around to remind you should you forget. Occasionally, some hot-shot makes it his business to give the community a good dressing down for not meeting their responsibility to the Faith. I know of at least two people who left the Faith after such a scolding. This pressure also consumes the community's time with futile projects. I never knew anybody to come into the Faith through a teaching project; it was always by personal contact. This endless drive towards teaching deprives the community of its spiritual center: namely, the Writings of Baha'u'llah. There is this sense that Baha'is must always be rushing about doing some activity or another and there is never any time for study, contemplation, or even fellowship. Another problem where teaching is concerned is that very few new converts are active even six months after signing their card. I don't know how many times I was introduced to a new believer, then never saw them again. Until we are able to create a fulfilling community life, there really isn't much point in teaching anybody. People will stay where they are nurtured, and they won't stay where they aren't nurtured. It really is that simple. The final shock, and the worst of all, is the utter all-pervasiveness of administration. I became Secretary of an LSA within months of becoming a Baha'i. Many times during those early days I felt as if the Baha'i Faith had found me a seeker of truth, but for some inexplicable reason, wanted to turn me into a bureaucrat. In fact, I went searching through the Writings, and of course, the letters of Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi, looking for a way I could be a Baha'i and not have all this endless administrative stuff hanging over my head. I had just undergone the profound religious experience of recognizing Baha'u'llah, and I was hurt and disappointed to find His community consumed with things that seemed rather trivial. My research only pulled me deeper into the administrative web. According to traditional Baha'i thinking, there really is no escape from administration. It was mostly laid down by Shoghi Effendi, the infallible interpreter of the Writings of Baha'u'llah, who was appointed by Abdu'l-Baha, who was appointed by the Manifestation Himself as an infallible interpreter. When I came to understand the doctrine of the Covenant, I was basically trapped. ( I should note as an aside that to new believers who don't research these matters find administration completely meaniningless, and this is one reason why they drift away.) Administration was inescapable. Not only did I have frequent LSA meetings, but administration takes up one-third of Feast, and elections must be attended to during Ridvan, the most joyous holiday of the Baha'i year. (No matter how "spiritual" you claim an election is, it still is basically business, not a celebration.) The basic problem is, that in a small community, the Assembly and the community amount to the same thing; that is, virtually all active members are on the LSA. Inevitably, the assembly activites take precedence over community-focused ones. Most disappointing of all, in this situation, no one has the time for actual study of the Writings: all the other obligations take precedence. Just try to organize a deepening in a community of between 8-12 people, and see how far you get! Worst of all, is that this administrative activity, for which so much is sacrificed, never seems to result in much. I'm very familiar with the old saw that we cannot judge the results of our teaching activity, since it may have an influence that we don't get to see. However, when year after year goes by with very few new believers, and those hard-won souls drop out of sight within months, then it is only sensible to question the validity of what you are doing. Another inexplicable roadblock put in the way of small communities is the separation of the urban area from the surrounding countryside. It is, in a word, insane. One long-time believer told me that years ago, they begged the NSA to allow the "city" community and the "JD" community to merge, but the pleas fell on deaf ears. "We lose people out in the country", this believer sighed, and he's right! We've got to be the only religion on the planet that asked new converts whether or not they live within the city limits. I personally have had the experience of driving into town from the JD, through the city, past the very place where the city was having their Feast, to the other side of town where our Feast was. I know this policy contributed to my isolation in later years. After living with, and considering this problem for many years, I've finally come to the conclusion that the National Spiritual Assembly doesn't give a rodent's hindquarters about the quality of community life at the local level, but is only concerned about how good the statistics look. Why have only one LSA, when you can have two? They both might be completely defunct; they may only exist on paper, but when we tally up the statistics for the public, it sure looks good. At one point, there were over 20 Baha'is living in my county, but they were divided up into two communities, and two "isolated believers". Instead of a strong, continuous community, we had two assemblies that were always jeopardized, bumped down to group status, or barely rescued by Ridvan. Worst of all, it reduced all of us to just cogs in a big machine. Perhaps typical of this attitude was a strange phone call I got quite recently: A Baha'i lady from the "city" community called, after hearing a rumor that I had come back to the Faith. She did not call to see how I was, or to invite me to an event, or even just to chat. She called me to see if I would help with the Unit Convention which they are hosting in October! Why worry about the state of someone's soul, when they have a pair of hands? Activity in our community went in "pulses", as one of the long-time locals described it. Activity would gear up, usually sparked by someone new moving in. Things would chug along pretty good for a while, then key people would move out and things would fall apart, until the cycle started all over again. I served on LSAs, when we had them, for nine years, in spite of my distaste for this kind of work. It's hard to just bow out and say "You guys can do all the work". Besides, I was a Baha'i. How could I not want to help the Cause? But I resented it terribly, and felt guilty about my resentment, and so those years were ones of intense conflict for me. This contributed to my decision to move to another town in the county, with a population of 400, which by historical accident happens to be incorporated. (That wasn't the only reason we moved there. Finding an affordable, adequate house was the main thing.) I thought, with a twinge of guilt, that I could enjoy the best of both worlds, able to attend the events of two communities while escaping the administrative net. However, it didn't turn out that way. The JD community basically consisted of two busy families who could never find a mutually agreeable time to meet. The city, for some reason couldn't stick to a calender, even when it bothered to print one. Many times I found myself on a front porch for an advertised event only to be informed that it had been cancelled, or that I should have called first, or there was simply nobody there. When I was informed of events, it was often scant hours beforehand. Basically, if you weren't in the inner circle of four or so that consistituted the most active people, it was impossible to get accurate information about what was going on. To this day, I'm not sure whether or not my exclusion was deliberate or simply the lack of organization. Often, city community members would refer to me as a "homefront pioneer" and made it clear they expected me to raise up my own community by converting people in my little town. Eventually, I decided I wouldn't bother about Baha'i activities, except for children's classes, which were very important to me. They always seemed to start off with a bang in the Spring, meander on haphazardly through summer, then be completely defunct by October. The final straw, as far as putting up with the local community was concerned, came in the fall of 1998. I called, as usual, to check if children's classes would really be there, and was told that they were having a big intercommunity event over Labor Day Weekend. I would be called back when children's classes began again. About a month later, I saw Baha'i children's classes advertised in the local paper. I was very hurt that no one had bothered to call me, but I took my children into town anyway. And, for the last time, I stood on a front porch where nobody answered the door and something snapped. I finally didn't care anymore whether anybody called me or not. I was furious. While at this point, I had no plans to leave the Faith, I did have one recurring thought: if the administrative order were ordained by God, surely it would work better. In spring of 1999, I went back to school in pursuit of my teaching credential, and for the first time had access to the Internet. And I found that article entitled "A Modest Proposal", which, if you aren't familiar with it, was an article slated for publication in Dialogue magazine containing proposals for reform in the Baha'i community. As it happens, I attended the now-infamous 1988 National Convention with a friend of mine who had been elected delegate. I was a subscriber to Dialogue magazine, and was a bit distressed to hear Firuz Kazemzadeh denounce it on the floor of the Convention. I had sometimes found articles in the magazine disturbing, but I mostly found it a refreshing change from the "official" stuff that seemed to bear so little relevance the the real struggles we were going through. I don't recall exactly what Dr. Kazemzadeh said. I most clearly remember a Persian believer say that these people were worse than Covenant-breakers, which I thought was a bit of an overstatement. However, the impression I got was that the "Baha'i dissidents" behind the magazine were snotty and disrespectful, and that I should withhold my support. And there I was, eleven years later looking at "A Modest Proposal", and I knew I'd been lied to. All the "dissidents" had done was make proposals that could improve the situation in the American Baha'i community. All they had done was express opinions. I think what the NSA feared most was that these proposals might sound reasonable to more than a few Baha'is, and might actually result in change. I withdrew from the Baha'i Faith on Naw-Ruz, after nearly fourteen years as a Baha'i. The more I've investigated, the more I am confirmed in my belief that leaving the Baha'i organization was the right thing to do. I am appalled at how legitimate scholars have been treated. As far as I'm concerned, the National Spriritual Assembly have betrayed the Message of Baha'u'llah. You can't investigate truth without asking questions. You can't claim that science and religion agree, then persecute the scientists. If the Covenant must be defended by dishonesty and injustice, then maybe its not worth defending. I still am, and always will be, a believer in Baha'u'llah, though that faith was severely shaken for a while. I've had time now to work through the anger, which would have been impossible if I'd remained in the Baha'i community. I am hoping, instead, that someday there will be a real Baha'i community, one in which people care about each other and the good of mankind. A community that serves God, not a bureaucracy that cares little for the people that support it. I'm keeping my eyes open, and I'm waiting. (September 24,1999) https://www.angelfire.com/ca3/bigquestions/Bahai.html Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c7ue5v8$rdu$1@nnrp1.deja.com%3e%231/4 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, October 23, 1999 9:15 PM To: icrf@aol.com Subject: The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Please consider adding a link to my website. I'd also appreciate it if you could refer me to any other websites concerned with freedom of conscience. Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, October 24, 1999 8:14 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Juan Cole page UPDATED ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com, the discussion network, offers free web-based access to more than 50,000 high-quality discussion forums. Come and visit us on the web at https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: Juan Cole page UPDATED From: "Mark Elderkin" Date: 1999/10/24 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.misc Again P.H., your sources are still without holding water. Personal letters and previous references to your own postings, are hardly what I call decent journalism. I know you will continue, but the circle is a closed one and the sources are without authenticity. Couldn't you change the name from Patrick Henry to Benedick Arnold or the like? Patrick Henry wrote in message news:7ur2q7$qth$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Approximately 50 messages have been added: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Cole.htm > > > Approximately 5 megabytes to the trb archive: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3cyisQ3.60$1d2.2464@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_henry@my-deja.com] Sent: Sunday, October 24, 1999 8:32 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Major UPDATE of Bahai website complete A major updating of my website is now complete, somewhere in the neighborhood of 250+ messages and over 5 megabytes of archived material. There now exists approximately 25 megabytes of messages on three servers. I apologize to everyone for taking so long, all of this year thus far, really. Please continue to email me or cc me at patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com with any messages or information you believe should be preserved and shared with Bahais and non-Bahais interested in seeking the truth. Be sure to put "bahai" in the subject slot. I will add any such messages to my site during the next updating. I'd also like to ask everyone to submit a link for my site to any suitable website concerned with religious freedom and conscience, free speech, and so on. May God bless all of you, and may Baha'u'llah save His faith from the fundamentalists among my fellow Bahais.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 9:08 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Another CB exposed!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com, the discussion network, offers free web-based access to more than 50,000 high-quality discussion forums. Come and visit us on the web at https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Another CB exposed!!! From: Carol Ann Date: 1999/10/30 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai I received this message from a person who shall remain nameless to protect his/her innocence: "Dear Carol: I was just informed by the Baha'i National Center in Wilmette, IL, that you have the status of a "Covenant-breaker supporter," because of your association with *** (who is a Covenant-breaker). I regret (and I mean that sincerely) that I will, therefore, not be able to correspond with you. I hope you understand (even if you don't agree with me) that my actions have nothing to do with you personally. On the contrary, you seem like a fine human being. In any event, I wish you all the best in your studies. I am sure that you will excel in any field whatever profession you are preparing to enter." I think that the Baha'i Center should be aware of the fact that they are committing slander and calumny, insinuating in effect that I am trying to pervert Baha'i followers of the UHJ. Furthermore, since no one at the Baha'i Center has ever talked to me, discussed my views with me, or even corresponded with me in any form or another, they are backbiting, spreading malicious rumors about me behind my back, which is expressly forbidden in the Teachings. At what point does one cease to be "poisonous"? Do Baha'is shun those who work with CBs? Do they investigate businesses to be sure CBs don't work there? At what point does this group-think malady stop? The person, ***, referred to was declared CB by the Hands, who had been expressly forbidden to call anyone a CB by Shoghi Effendi. I don't know all the ins and outs of Baha'i history, not at this point do I care, because it is irrelevant to me, but I cannot believe that ***, who is a fine, honest, moral person, deserved what he/she got. And so, the pain and devastation caused by calumny spreads through the generations. I suppose I should wear a scarlet CB embroidered on my shirt. -- Best regards, Carol Ann Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c7vfg40$utn$1@nnrp1.deja.com%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 1:48 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: BAHA'I WEB INDEXES - A LIST ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com, the discussion network, offers free web-based access to more than 50,000 high-quality discussion forums. Come and visit us on the web at https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: BAHA'I WEB INDEXES - A LIST From: Mike Muttart Date: 1999/10/31 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai THREE COMPREHENSIVE INDEXES OF BAHA'I-RELATED WEB SITES AND MORE: Baha'i Faith Index - searchable index site by Casper Voogt: https://bounty.bcca.org/~cvoogt/ A Baha'i Faith page (searchable, comprehensive index): https://www.bcca.org/~glittle/ Baha'i Resources on the Internet https://www.bcca.org/srb/resources.html SOURCES OF BAHA'I WRITINGS ON THE WORLD WIDE WEB: Baha'i Writings on the internet: https://www.bahai.com/writings/ (Baha'i books as downloadable files and online keyword search of them) Baha'i Texts on the Internet: https://www.bcca.org/services/srb/texts.html Baha'i Academics Resource Library: (a project to get all Baha'i writings onto the internet) https://bahai-library.org/ Baha'i Immerse for Windows 95: Go to: https://www.zdnet.com/swlib/ (Zdnet software library) Search for: baha'i Select the Immerse link. (a free downloadable program containing a large selection of Baha'i books, plus the Bible, Quran, and Hindu and Buddhist holy books) (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c381C70B4.A9FEC76E@home.com%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 9:21 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Lesser Peace prophesies ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com, the discussion network, offers free web-based access to more than 50,000 high-quality discussion forums. Come and visit us on the web at https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Lesser Peace prophesies From: Mike Muttart Date: 1999/11/01 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai Please note that the end of the twentieth century is the end of the year 2000, not the end of 1999. SUMMARY: One set of Baha'i prophecies assert that the lesser peace and world federal government will be established before the end of the 20th century. Another set of Baha'i prophecies and comments made by Shoghi Effendi imply that a war of unprecedented destructiveness will occur beforehand, which will drive the nations to accept this radical change in the world's political organization. (see the nuclear war prophecies compilation on my web site: https://www.interlog.com/~m9/welcome.html This view of the future tends to be confirmed by what has already happened this century: World War 1 ended in 1918. The League of Nations was established in 1919. World War 2 ended in 1945. The United Nations was established in 1946. World War 3 will occur in 1999 or 2000. World Federal Government will be established in 2000. "...this century - the century of light - hath been endowed with unique and unprecedented glory, power and illumination. Hence the miraculous unfolding of a fresh marvel every day. Eventually it will be seen how bright its candles will burn in the assemblage of man. Behold how its light is now dawning upon the world's darkened horizon. The first candle is unity in the political realm, the early glimmerings of which can now be discerned. The second candle is unity of thought in world undertakings, the consummation of which will erelong be witnessed. The third candle is unity in freedom which will surely come to pass. The fourth candle is unity in religion which is the corner-stone of the foundation itself, and which, by the power of God, will be revealed in all its splendour. The fifth candle is the unity of nations - a unity which in this century will be securely established, causing all the peoples of the world to regard themselves as citizens of one common fatherland. The sixth candle is unity of races, making of all that dwell on earth peoples and kindreds of one race. The seventh candle is unity of language, i.e., the choice of a universal tongue in which all peoples will be instructed and converse. Each and every one of these will inevitably come to pass, inasmuch as the power of the Kingdom of God will aid and assist in their realization. (`Abdu'l-Baha: Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, Page: 32) 1425. Peace Will Come "It is true that Abdu'l-Baha made statements linking the establishment of the unity of nations to the twentieth century. For example: `...The fifth candle is the unity of nations - a unity which, in this century, will be securely established, causing all the peoples of the world to regard themselves as citizens of one common fatherland....' And, in `The Promised Day is Come', following a similar statement quoted from `Some Answered Questions', Shoghi Effendi makes this comment: `This is the stage which the world is now approaching, the stage of world unity, which, as Abdu'l-Baha assures us, will, in this century, be securely established.' (From a letter of the Universal House of Justice, July 29, 1974, Lights of Guidance, Page: 435) Are there any signs that the permanent peace of the world will be established in anything like a reasonable period? Abdu'l-Baha was asked. It will be established in this century, he answered. It will be universal in the twentieth century. All nations will be forced into it. ... Economic pressure will tell? Yes: the nations will be forced to come to peace and to agree to the abolition of war. The awful burdens of taxation for war purposes will get beyond human endurance... No, said `Abdu'l-Baha in conclusion, I repeat, no nation can disarm under these circumstances. Disarmament is surely coming, but it must come, and it will come, by the universal consent of the civilized nations of the earth. By international agreement they will lay down their arms and the great era of peace will be ushered in. In this and no other way can peace be established upon the earth. (Extracts from interview with newspaper reporter, quoted in "Abdu'l-Baha in Canada" (Thornhill: Baha'i Canada Publications, 1987), pp. 34-35) (`Abdu'l-Baha: Peace, Pages: 171-172) 1423. The Unification of Mankind is Assured by Baha'u'llah and No Power Can Prevent It "Whatever our shortcomings may be, and however formidable the forces of darkness which besiege us to-day, the unification of mankind as outlined and ensured by the World Order of Baha'u'llah will in the fullness of time be firmly and permanently established. This is Baha'u'llah's promise, and no power on earth can in the long run prevent or even retard its adequate realization. The friends should, therefore, not lose hope, but fully conscious of their power and their role they should persevere in their mighty efforts for the extension and the consolidation of Baha'u'llah's universal dominion on earth." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, November 6, 1933: Ibid.) (Lights of Guidance, Page: 435) Far from yielding in their resolve, far from growing oblivious of their task, they should, at no time, however much buffeted by circumstances, forget that the synchronization of such world-shaking crises with the progressive unfoldment and fruition of their divinely appointed task is itself the work of Providence, the design of an inscrutable Wisdom, and the purpose of an all-compelling Will, a Will that directs and controls, in its own mysterious way, both the fortunes of the Faith and the destinies of men. Such simultaneous processes of rise and of fall, of integration and of disintegration, of order and chaos, with their continuous and reciprocal reactions on each other, are but aspects of a greater Plan, one and indivisible, whose Source is God, whose author is Baha'u'llah, the theater of whose operations is the entire planet, and whose ultimate objectives are the unity of the human race and the peace of all mankind. (Shoghi Effendi: The Advent of Divine Justice, Pages: 72-73) (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c381DBA7A.375059B1@interlog.com%3e%231/2 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 5:27 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Shunning adventists ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: Shunning adventists From: dasein110@aol.com (DaSein110) Date: 1999/11/07 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai >It was when I put something up giving a more >normative view of the >Covenant written by an Auxiliary Board >Member that Juan protested and >threatened to have me removed as moderator. Well, given that the so called view that is being called normative was presented by Brent Poirier (a well known Henderson crony who created problems for several Talisman 1 individuals and the man responsible for spying on me after I had left the Baha'i Faith) I can't blame Juan one bit. His protestations were well placed. I would have done the same thing had I been in the same position as he with a loose canon editor/moderator with an agenda such as yourself. And don't you find it just a wee bit suspicious that Poirier became ABM less than six months after the fall of Talisman 1 (a list which he had been a vocal arch-conservative)? Juan was right, ultramontanist (Brent, according to what he himself told me was a conservative Catholic who had entered one of the orders before becoming a Baha'i) and big Nixon supporter indeed. Nima (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c19991107164740.06357.00002076@ng-fy1.aol.com%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 5:19 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: My "Ex-Baha'i" Story ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: My "Ex-Baha'i" Story From: kalamity@my-deja.com Date: 1999/11/06 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai Dear friends, I appreciate all the feedback about my story about leaving the Faith. I've got lots of supportive and positive emails back. Several people told me they so identified with my story that it could have been them writing it. However, I think I should make clear the reason I left, because I did not see it addressed. Yes, I did spend many years in a frustrating and unsatisfying community situation, and did gradually grow more alienated and inactive as time went by. But I did not leave the Baha'i Faith for that reason. I left upon my discovery of how the NSA lied about Dialogue magazine. I was at the 1988 National Convention and heard it denounced, so when I discovered that there really was no attack from Dialogue I felt like I had been personally lied to and used for political purposes. The NSA completely betrayed my trust in them, and this threw me into a spiritual crisis from which I barely recovered my faith in Baha'u'llah. The reason I am not an enrolled Baha'i is that I don't trust the institutions. Period. Love, Karen Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c80238l$utd$1@nnrp1.deja.com%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 5:21 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: My "Ex-Baha'i" Story ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: My "Ex-Baha'i" Story From: kalamity@my-deja.com Date: 1999/11/08 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai In article <19991108030523.07308.00003540@ng-cg1.aol.com>, smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > >I left upon my discovery of how the NSA lied about > >>> Dialogue magazine > > Dear Karen, > > The whole Dialogue episode got extremely confused and convoluted. I would not > assume that the NSA deliberately lied about what happened. But I do think > there is reason to think they were misinformed on the one hand, and interpreted > events quite differently from the way you heard them on the other. > Susan Stiles Maneck > History, Stetson University Dear Susan, I don't have time for a detailed reply today, but I will remind you of something: I was there. I heard the denunciation of Dialogue, and believed it. I even threw away my copies of the magazine, believing that to be a loyal thing to do. And eleven years later I found myself reading the unpublished article "A Modest Proposal",that no sane person would regard as an attack. This is not something someone told me second hand. At the time I found this, I wasn't even aware of the other controversies going on over the Internet. My opinion of the NSA's honesty is based upon the evidence of my own senses. Love, Karen > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c8071re$98u$1@nnrp1.deja.com%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_henry@my-deja.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 2:14 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Bahai Threats of Lawsuits & Bahai Censorship on AOL This file contains two messages: "Bahai Threats of Lawsuits" and "Bahai Censorship on AOL": Given the Bahai threats of lawsuits against me during the spring and early summer of 1999 let me say I have never committed slander against any individual, Bahai or otherwise, nor against any Bahai institution. If anyone has been slandered on talk.religion.bahai, it is I by the constant character assassination Bahais have marshalled against me for nearly three years. I'd be happy to appear in court and present an American judge and jury with the evidence of Bahai lies, deceit, censorship, and tyranny over the last decade. I highly doubt any legitimately established jury would look favorably on what Bahai fundamentalists have done to the Walbridges, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Stephen Scholl, and many, many other, indeed, TENS of THOUSANDS, of American ex-Bahais.... I'd be happy to appear in an American court and present the judge and jury with the many passages from the Bahai Writings in which the Figures speak favorably of free speech and conscience, such as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. Only one of the nine tyrants on Mt. Carmel could distort such passages to mean the kinds of things they have had the gall to foist on American Bahais in their statement this April, which Professor Juan Cole has candidly and accurately referred to as an "outburst of vehement ignorance." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Bahais falsely accuse me of slander. Far from slandering the UHJ, I have stood up to Bahai fundamentalists and honestly spoken my conscience. They are free to call that "slander." I doubt any judge or jury in the West would call it such, especially after reading the EVIDENCE and reflecting on the enormous discrepancy between the sycophantic treatment leaders in government, the UN, and the media regularly receive from Bahais who are always interested in attempting to exploit their positions of power for one reason or another and the reality of abuse of the most basic human rights now well documented on Professor Juan Cole's website and on mine. I trust the American legal system to protect me from such organizations and fundamentalist reprobates. The objective observer will note the Bahai tactic of resorting to threats and intimidation instead of engaging in discussion of the actual incidents of censorship and oppression, extensively noted in "The Bahai Technique." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm Such tactics remind me of a comment by Dr. Martin Luther King in his Letter from Birmingham Jail: "You deplore the demonstrations taking place in Birmingham. But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations." Fundamentalist Bahais typify this same mentality. They rail and threaten me, and others who dare speak their minds, but express no concern whatsoever for the underlying conditions of censorship and oppression that have led to distrust and contempt for the UHJ and its fascist distortion of Baha'u'llah's Teachings. Everything I have said is a matter of religious conscience protected under the US Constitution. My Bahai membership card proves it, and a scanned copy of it may be found on my website. I would be happy to present the original to any judge or jury in the land. "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." --Thomas Jefferson -- Patrick Henry "Give me liberty or give me death." Visit The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997," which surveys the many, many incidents of censorship and oppression that have taken place in the Bahai faith during the last decade or more: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm Saman Ahmadi wrote in message news:376EF2DE.221BD43@earthlink.net... > > I have stated that I may sue you - that is singular. I am not aware of > anyone else's attempt. BTW, my suing you is not a threat - a threat > is I will do this if you do that. You have already crossed that line. > I > said I would first take it up with Dejanews - Roger pointed out that > you were not using Dejanews to post your articles so I suppose it > is bigfoot at first. > > Now, if it gets to the point that I decide to sue you, I will offer > anyone > who wishes to join in a class-action suit, if that is legally possible. > > My feet are firmly on the ground - I am not joking or mincing words. > > Saman Ahmadi > > > Patrick Henry wrote: > > > Given the recurrent Bahai threats of lawsuits against me, > > let me say I have never committed slander. > > P.S. Ever heard of the Furman tapes? > ------------------------------------------------------------- BAHAI CENSORSHIP ON AOL: In August of 1998 I took out an account on AOL. It quickly became apparent that my fellow Bahais were using AOL in such a way as to further withhold knowledge and information from AOL's more than 14 million members. It appeared to me that there were four main issues. Alt.religion.bahai, which had been created in April of 1997 and which had had more than 20,000 messages posted to it, was not even offered in the list of AOL newsgroups. AOL personnel with which I spoke over the phone were very puzzled why it wasn't and even implied that some action would have had to have been taken to keep it from automatically being picked up and added to their newsgroups. It took more than a month of strenuous effort to get AOL to add alt.religion.bahai. On the AOL Bahai Forums it became apparent that Bahais were manipulating and controlling information by NOT making it available, by essentially preserving the frozen, non-functioning state of affairs or the status quo: 1. The Libraries were not accepting new uploads for others then to download and read. 2. The list of Newsgroups on the Main Menu for Bahai offered only soc.religion.bahai with no mention of alt.religion.bahai, or talk.religion.bahai once it was created in January of 1999. Coupled with soc.religion.bahai's suppression of all mention of alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai, this prevents people from even hearing of their existence. 3. The available links for Web Sites on the Main Menu for Bahai did not offered my website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience, though it has to be one of the most visited sites on the Bahai Faith with more than 7,000 hits since May 1998. As the months went by, my repeated attempts to improve these deficiencies met with greater and greater opposition from the Bahai fundamentalists on AOL. Similiarly, my requests, beginning in August of 1998, that the Forum Leader, Mark Foster, who no one had seen for months, resign, for derilection of duty, were increasingly opposed while various excuses were offered for his absence. Not until talk.religion.bahai was passed five months later in January 1999 did he suddenly reappear only to begin immediately reporting absolutely EVERY message I posted to AOL as a TOS. It quickly became clear to me that he was back in order to target and build a case against me to have me suspended from AOL. My account was then temporarily suspended on three different occasions and finally terminated March 6, 1999. Of the four issues, only two have partially been remedied. 1. Alt.religion.bahai and now talk.religion.bahai are available under AOL's Keyword Newsgroups, Expert Add. 2. The Libraries are accepting some uploads, though Foster banned the 15+ megabytes I uploaded in late February of my entire archive of discussion for talk.religion.bahai and which is at least available on my website. It's obvious Foster is finding pretexts for suppressing further uploads. While Foster has claimed since mid-January that alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai would be added to the Main Menu under Newsgroups, he continued to make excuses for it not happening. As of March 9, 1999 they were not yet listed under Newsgroups along with soc.religion.bahai. All of these factors, coupled with Mark Foster's abuse of his position as Forum Leader and his harassing and targetting of dissenting voices, not only mine, leaves no doubt that he and other Bahais, including some among the Bahai Administration, are involved in manipulating and censoring discourse on AOL. For an instance of "back-channel" email coercion on AOL see https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm For an instance of Foster's double standard handling fundamentalist Bahais see Susan Maneck's accusations on AOL against me of "slander" and references to my views as "garbage" and "litter": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm The immediate pretext for terminating my account, according to the AOL official with whom I spoke on the phone, was that I had pointed out in a newly created Folder called Censorship that I and other AOL members had requested a Folder entitled Bahai Censorship and thereby undermined the authority of the Forum Leader.... In closing let me add that AOL personnel are extremely uninformed about the Bahai Faith, especially its practice of censorship, and its ability to exploit the TOS system.... Half a megabyte of messages documenting Bahai censorship on AOL may be found at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_henry@my-deja.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 2:17 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Agenda for Discussion on talk.religion.bahai I would be happy to discuss any of the acts of oppression and tyranny committed by the uhj as documented below on The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm I provide the "headlines" below for newcomers and Bahais on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai. Otherwise, I expect to be posting less frequently this fall, having learnt during the last three years what I needed to know about my fellow Bahais and the uhj.... I am content to have played a central role in the propagation or creation of alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai, forums where others may now speak freely about the Bahai faith. Should anything be posted that might be especially suitable for my website, I'd appreciate someone emailing a copy to patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com with "Bahai" in the subject line. Should the uhj come to its senses and abolish "review," unlikely as it may be, I'd appreciate someone informing me to that effect.... In the meantime, I must return to my literary interests, prepared for, and now accepting, a more arduous psychomachia.... Others will have to step forward.... Patrick Henry.... The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------- Newcomers might want to start here: The Bahai Technique Essential Reading soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations Documenting Censorship alt.religion.bahai & talk.religion.bahai FAQ(Frequently Asked Questions) Bahais on AOL Late 1998 & early 1999 Bahai Attacks I & II Fall & Spring 1999 Bahai Threats of Lawsuits During Spring 1999 Discussion Agenda for Talk.Religion.Bahai (Topics Bahais never discuss) To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- Juan Cole surveys the major incidents of Bahai censorship: "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997" "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Baha'i Scriptures" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- Assorted Controversial Documents "A Modest Proposal" 1987 "The Service of Women" 1988 The Majnun Post 2/7/96 The Pickering Tape 4/96 "Crisis of Faith" 5/15/96 Letter: Stephen Birkland, Continental Board of Counsellors 7/16/96 "Baha'i Leaders Vexed by On-Line Critics" Winter 1997 Stephen Scholl re the suppression of Dialogue Magazine 1997 Mark Towfiq's NO Vote Campaign on BCCA mailing lists 3/12/97 Susan Maneck's NO Vote Campaign on AOL 12/7/98 Michael McKenny - uhj throws him out of the Bahai faith 7/97 Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - NSA warns Australian Bahais 11/4/97 Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - his response to Bahai NSA Surveillance 9/7/99 My case - a letter to my friends Terry Culhane 7/28/99 Juan Cole, Dismissal of NSA Member Judge James F. Nelson... April, 1999 Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" Letter of Resignation - Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- Universal House of Justice From the UHJ: 14 October 1997 From the UHJ: 19 December 1997 To the UHJ: December 21, 1997 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- Newspaper Articles/Releases "Critics chafe at Baha'i conservatism" IRA RIFKIN c.1997 Religion News Service "Such Freedoms": New York Times, January 1998 NSA Media Release 12/6/1998 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- Talk.Religion.Bahai passed 218: 63 1st RFD: Talk.Religion.Bahai Jan 17 1997 1st RESULT: Talk.Religion.Bahai Mar 27 1997 2nd RFD: Talk.Religion.Bahai Jan 12, 1998 2nd RESULT: Talk.Religion.Bahai Feb 22, 1998 3rd RFD: Talk.Religion.Bahai Sept 28, 1998 3rd RESULT: Talk.Religion.Bahai Jan 10, 1999 Annotated NO Voters List for the 2nd Interest Poll Annotated NO Voters List for the 3rd Interest Poll -------------------------------------- For the full text of the messages above, see https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997," which surveys the many, many incidents of censorship and oppression that have taken place in the Bahai faith during the last decade or more: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_henry@my-deja.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 2:02 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: soc.religion.bahai; talk.religion.bahai FAQ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for Alt.Religion.Bahai, Talk.Religion.Bahai This FAQ will be reposted approximately every two weeks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- People with only web access might want to use www.deja.com www.reference.com or www.newsguy.com or https://www.remarq.com/ They all offer reading and posting capabilities for people who can't directly access alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai and filter out spam. Alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai are available on America Online (AOL) Keyword, Newsgroups, then search for alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai If your ISP does not offer talk.religion.bahai, follow this news.groupie advice: "If your ISP doesn't have the group shortly, I suggest that you ask the newsmaster there to add it (Try news@isp.net, or newsmaster@isp.net) Ask politely. Include the msg ID of the results posting, and of the newgroup msg." Dave Cornejo's RESULT posting: https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp? AN=431106082&CONTEXT=918305125.781648012&hi tnum=0 David Lawrence's newgroup msg creating talk.religion.bahai: https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp? AN=434026333&CONTEXT=918304600.713490686&hi tnum=3 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- NOTE: Not all people agree on the interpretations given below. Question #1 "Why create arb or t.r.b.?" ANSWER #1: Because many people believe they experienced or are continuing to experience censorship when attempting to post to soc.religion.bahai. See the quotations from Abdu'l-Baha: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ANSWER #2: Because the Bahai writings support free speech and religious conscience. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ANSWER #3: [fill in the blank according to your own opinion.] Question #2: "Why do the srb moderators oppose trb?" ANSWER: Perhaps they'll supply an answer to place here. (Three years later their NO votes are their only answer.) Question #3: "Are Bahais opposed to freedom of speech and conscience?" ANSWER: Despite glowing words of love and support for other people's opinions, despite the Universal House of Justice stating at least publicly it is not opposed to an unmoderated forum, the record of actual behavior by Bahais and on soc.religion.bahai and the experience of TENS of THOUSANDS of Bahais and people who have left the Bahai Faith give serious reason for concern. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Chronology of major events: talk.religion.bahai ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- January 17, 1997: The 1st proposal for talk.religion.bahai was submitted to news.announce.newgroups. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/1stRFD.htm Early March 1997: Mark Towfiq, chairman of the BCCA, the Bahai Computer and Communication Association, posts to three Bahai-only mailing lists a call for Bahais to vote NO against talk.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Towfiq.htm March 1997: soc.religion.bahai bans all discussion of talk.religion.bahai from its newsgroup. This ban is still in effect more than a year and a half later. March 31, 1997: The 1st proposal was defeated 157 YES to 691 NO. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/1stRESULT.htm April 3, 1997: Jonathan Grobe, a non-Bahai, creates alt.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/arb.htm October 14, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases a message stating it has no objection to unmoderated newsgroups: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJ1.htm November 1997: At a time when discussion was highly favorable in support of talk.religion.bahai, the BCCA deprives Frederick Glaysher of access to the private Bahai-only mailing list bahai-discuss and all of its other lists, inflaming Bahai passions against trb. See bahai-discuss archived files and correspondence between Frederick Glaysher and the BCCA committee: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm December 19, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases a message that suggests it does not understand the nature of Usenet interest polling: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJ2.htm January 12, 1998: The 2nd proposal for talk.religion.bahai was submitted. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/2ndRFD.htm February 22, 1998: The 2nd proposal was defeated 109 YES to 65 NO. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/2ndRESULT.htm May 25, 1998: srb bans all messages from Frederick Glaysher that contain his signature file: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb23.htm September 9,1998: America Online (AOL) places a Bahai-inspired TOS against Frederick Glaysher; AOL removes the TOS after considering both sides of the issue, i.e., Bahai messages attacking and threatening him and the experience of others: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm September 14, 1998: soc.religion.bahai extends its ban on Frederick Glaysher's signature file to include all signature files and URLs from all posters, allowing only email addresses and the name of the poster: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srbban.htm October 14, 1998: Soc.religion.bahai moderator Bill Hyman backbites and casts aspersions on proponent Ron House and attempts to undermine the new support for the "neutral" RFD: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb67.htm December 3, 1998: The Call For Votes (CFV) was posted to news.announce.newgroups and news.groups for the 3rd interest poll for talk.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRFD.htm December 7, 1998: Bahai scholar Susan Maneck begins her NO vote campaign on AOL and alt.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm January 10, 1999: Talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRESULT.htm It should be noted that talk.religion.bahai eventually passed despite of the opposition of Bahais. The annotated RESULT may be read at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRESULT.htm The annotated NO voters list may be read at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/NOvoters3rd.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- For past discussion of censorship on soc.religion.bahai and other issues, including censorship within the Bahai community, see the website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/index.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- This document at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/FAQ.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm ---------------------------------------------------- Robert J. Pease, December 5, 1998: "I support your efforts to expose SRB as a fundamentalist group." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb84.htm Ron House: "I think the following is a clear case of malicious rejection of an article by the worst of the moderators of soc.religion.bahai." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb53.htm Timothy Mulligan: "(Sigh) Fred, I'm beginning to think you're right about those SRB moderators." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb59.htm RobertNik: "these guys are pompous arseholes IMHO." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb54.htm Bruce Burrill: "What are Baha'i afraid of?" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb60.htm Zuteflute: "Frankly I could not see anything in the letter I wrote which would prompt someone to ask whether or not I am a Baha'i." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb50.htm YU ZIR: "But as an outsider, I can perhaps see the point Fred Glaysher is making, and which point none of SRB's defenders seem to address." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb46.htm Matthew Cromer: "The current moderators regulate the contents--posting articles which they agree with...." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb47.htm Kavosh Soltani, December 9, 1998: "So many Bahais on these forums have shown to be ready to forget logic and reason, ignore clear evidence and Word of God, and come up with exactly the same line of tired and inaccurate excuses and arguments to justify their position, that it can not be a simple coincidence." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb77.htm Shakti3, December 4, 1998: "Sorry to hear that you've been surpressed on srb. Your comments were alway very "right on." Altho it does not surprise me one bit, seeing the way these newsgroups operate." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Ex7.htm Harold Shinsato: "It seems like there is an oppression over the Baha'i Faith." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb33.htm Steve Tomljenovic, December 3, 1998: "The moderators are a bit overzealous at times. Since all the controversy started, it has gotten worse." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb79.htm Laeterna: "To say I was flabberghasted at this type of "moderating" was putting it mildly indeed." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/censored2.htm Guy Macon" "Please explain which portion of the charter the following post violates." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/censored1.htm Robin Peters: "I think you're to be commended for your persistence in the face of consistent censorship." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb43.htm jgoldberg: "I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. " https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb57.htm Ruletherod, November 17, 1998: "Too much damage has already been done in the name and to the name of Baha'u'llah by right-wing administrative bullies, linear-thinking apologists, and doctrinaire-fundamentalists. You can't just blame it all on the critics." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb76.htm Many other similar messages may be found on my web site under soc.religion.bahai censorship. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_henry@my-deja.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 2:06 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Bahai attacks & Bahai Bullying This file contains two messages: "attacks by Bahais" & "Bahai Bullying": Incessant Bahai attacks upon my freedom of speech and liberty, as well as on others, have made it necessary for me to adopt a persona for my own protection and well being. Other measures have been taken. During the late winter and spring of 1999, Bahais twice flooded my hotmail account with up to 1000 messages per day resulting in considerable inconvenience and expenditure of time and effort to block, and ultimately close, the offending accounts; they have, by using numerous Bahai trolls, especially Gyr Falcon, slandered, maligned, and caricatured me in a further effort to discredit me and portray me on talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere as a disturbed and errant individual; through concerted false charges and allegations against me, they have now succeeded in deceiving Hotmail into closing my email account, which I depended on for a considerable part of my income and livelihood. For documentation of many similar incidents of Bahai oppression during the last decade, see The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---- Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- I'm alarmed at the Bahai attempts, during May of 1999, at character assassination, ridicule, and generally portraying me and others as disturbed individuals. This tactic has been used for over three years and continues to be used against me and other Bahais and non-Bahais or ex-Bahais. I have never claimed to be perfect. At times I have apologized to Bahais, Muslims, and other non-Bahais when I felt, or was convinced, that I was wrong or had spoken unfairly. I find the constant technique to portray me as a megalomanic or paranoid quite offensive. Similarly, the tactic of accusing me of spam for posting my opinions is calculated to discredit the validity of my and others' concerns regarding censorship in Bahai forums and has also been used on AOL. Such accusations reveal the frustration that Bahai fundamentalists apparently feel over my having found ways of enduring and resisting the onslaught of their concerted attacks, while preserving a historical record on a markedly ephermeral medium for innocent Bahais and non-Bahais.... Fair-minded Bahai and non-Bahai observers may judge for themselves whether my and others' allegations of censorship are valid by reading the record preserved under "Assorted Controversial Documents" on my website at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm As further corroboration that I am not the only person concerned with the intolerance and censorship that has overtaken the Bahai Faith, I recommend Professor Juan Cole's new book Modernity & the Millennium: The Genesis of the Bahai Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East, available through Columbia University Press or Amazon.com at https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0231110812/002-4036721-8058448 In his conclusion, which would never have passed the system of Bahai "review" that the UHJ imposes on all publications brought out under its tight control, Professor Cole, of the Department of History at The University of Michigan, quite accurately identifies the distortions that have been wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings: "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriachy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth- century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed." (196) He himself and many others, as evidence under the "Assorted Controversial Documents," have suffered at the hands of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the religion: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement." (201) These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on AOL, talk.religion.bahai, and alt.religion.bahai for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. As a Bahai for more than 23 years, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. The UHJ is also in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums of public discussion. I recommend all newcomers to these matters read "The Bahai Technique": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm On The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_henry@my-deja.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 2:11 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: uhj bahai & The Bahai Technique This file contains two messages: "uhj" and "The Bahai Techniques": From: Patrick Henry patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor ; bahai-faith @ makelist.com Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM July 24,1998 Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in Iran would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the international community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, always courting the President and other members of the government, has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents as I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many individuals, Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within the Bahai community and administration. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more than a year and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat twice now, along with the collusion of other Bahais, the creation of an unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under Bahai-Discuss Archives. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA has approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban for more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding talk.religion.bahai. The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," if you will, of Bahai censorship? -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ------ Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm ------------------------------------------------------- THE BAHAI TECHNIQUE: During the last several years or more a number of observers have noted the common methods many Bahais use to avoid various issues or discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: May 12, 1992: "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [over 22]. The usual stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the Truth." Ron House, November 14, 1997: "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so much he says something intemperate, then point out how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this technique works, so I've been making a conscious effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. At any other time, they would overlook faults, as Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode they go for the jugular. Very sad." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/House2.htm June 1998: "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to talk.religion.bahai." "More than twenty different people on my web site have posted messages explaining their experience with srb censorship yet many srb Bahais NEVER address their concerns. Ignoring such charges will not make them go away. NO ONE has to "try" to link the trb interest poll with censorship on srb; the moderators themselves have done that by suppressing droves of people for years. There are many people who believe such suppression is part and parcel of the Bahai community as it exists today. A YES vote need not necessarily support such a belief. There are other reasons Bahais might vote YES." Fran Baker, May 1998: "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a group acts this way. Very scary." Dr. Juan Cole, June 12, 1998: "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified threats of declaring him or her a CB to silence the individual, and if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the gullibility of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket." "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization ostensibly committed to tolerance!" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Cole10.htm K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in their condemnations of their fellow believers, I would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not character assassination by innuendo, what is?" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson18.htm Gibro28W, October 12, 1998: "In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out as "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs of its members in the first place." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb73.htm Barthaman on September 14, 1998: "Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too. Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)-- after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion? Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on, however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud. Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb66.htm Juan Cole wrote, February 23, 1999: "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon them to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do not fall silent." "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech about the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You will note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long-term heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose with the facts,'and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused of all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been backbitten by them." "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute." "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five years. He can explain it to you." Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson21.htm And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb65.htm Comments on the related techniques of Susan Maneck: Juan Cole, February 13, 1999: "It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning, they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion." "I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled with hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just have shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is about has anything at all to do with *universities*!" February 15, 1999: "Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better, since the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. And it then allows her to claim pretty much anything she wants to while seeming to have discredited her opponent. Further, she relies on the tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By shrieking "slander" and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates whatever the topic or content might be and that allows her to appear to win what is often a narrowly legalistic point or interpretation." "All of this is done, of course, in conjunction with her employing the more common Bahai techniques of intimidation and psychological demonization and terrorism." Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm This document at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 4:55 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: My "Ex-Baha'i" Story ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: My "Ex-Baha'i" Story From: kalamity@my-deja.com Date: 1999/11/10 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai In article <19991108205916.01695.00004918@ng-cg1.aol.com>, smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > >I was there. I heard the denunciation of Dialogue, and > >believed it. I even threw away my copies of the magazine, believing that > >to be a loyal thing to do. And eleven years later I found myself > >reading the unpublished article "A Modest Proposal",that no sane person > >would regard as an attack. > > Dear Karen, > > Now I think I understand what you are talking about. My understanding is that > at that convention Dr. Kazemzadeh had read from a letter by the editor of > Dialogue Magazine wherein the editor attacked the NSA in the most immoderate > terms. That was not part of the Modest Proposal article, it was from letters > addressed to the Institutions. I question the NSA's judgment in reading that > correspondence at Convention, but I won't belabor that point. The problem with > the Modest Proposal article itself is that it's proposals "attacked" the > foundational principles of the Administrative Order itself as established by > Shoghi Effendi. Perhaps that is why it was called "The Modest Proposal." > Susan Stiles Maneck > History, Stetson University Dear Susan, Then I must respectfully disagree. Some of the proposals in this article were controversial, but I can't regard the simple writing of them to be an "attack". This was simply an opinion. The Baha'i Faith is in real trouble if opinions cannot be given without the fear that someone will name them an "attack". And I have a tough time believing that the members of the NSA, who are intelligent, literate people, really believed that this was an attack or a danger to the Faith. The people connected with Dialogue just wrote an article; they didn't try to stage a coup. What is so dangerous about the ideas presented in there that they couldn't even be discussed? Just because ideas are presented in an article doesn't mean that they will automatically be implemented. Besides, this article wasn't even published. My understanding is that it was submitted for review just like it was supposed to be. I just don't see an attack here. The people connected with Dialogue had no power to get these proposals adopted. The NSA could have just squelched the article without denouncing, and ultimately destroying, the magazine. I've never heard this charge that some other posters have made that the article was distributed at Convention. I sure never saw it before finding it on the Internet. But I'm disinclined to believe that without some solid evidence. Oh, and by the way, "A Modest Proposal" is the title of a famous satire by Jonathon Swift, and my guess is that the authors whimsically, and rather unwisely, named the article after this. Love, Karen > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c80cb1c$6ao$1@nnrp1.deja.com%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 4:58 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: My "Ex-Baha'i" Story ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: My "Ex-Baha'i" Story From: pjohnson@vlinsvr.vsla.edu (K. Paul Johnson) Date: 1999/11/12 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai kalamity@my-deja.com wrote: : : Then I must respectfully disagree. Some of the proposals in this article : were controversial, but I can't regard the simple writing of them to be : an "attack". This was simply an opinion. The Baha'i Faith is in real : trouble if opinions cannot be given without the fear that someone will : name them an "attack". That's not half the "real trouble." What irks me so about Susan's misrepresentations of my own history and motives is that they're based on a Manichaean dichotomy. Good Lord! I got on the H-Bahai board *only* because Juan asked me to, thinking that a non-Baha'i who'd published academically (although NOT AN ACADEMICIAN as you've been reminded) would lend some legitimacy to the thing. I was very involved in finishing my book on Cayce, and hardly posted at all on H-Bahai. A few times when I did post, my own views about Baha'i institutions were apparent, but at no time did I post with the sole specific intent of attacking them. And most of my few posts had nothing to do with the subject. All this complexity-- a reluctant, occasional participant, some of whose posts rubbed her the wrong way-- gets reduced to a simplistic "enemy of the Faith" who participated on the H-Bahai board solely as a means of "attacking the Institutions." This reminds me of the time, not so long ago, when Susan attacked me on another list, answering someone who asked about my Gnosis article on Talisman. She portrayed me as a flaky dharma hopper who bounced from one spiritual movement to another, chronically dissatisfied, a complainer, who had for the time being found temporary refuge among the followers of Edgar Cayce. Au contraire! I've had only two spiritual affiliations since leaving Baha'i in 1974, and they've both lasted over 20 years now, simultaneously, with various changes of emphasis. Nor had I ever been vocally dissatisfied with either, until in one case I got viciously attacked by some fanatics for scholarly work I had done, 15 years into my tenure in the movement. The bottom line here is that her apparent agenda in both cases is to divert attention from who I really am and what I really think and what my real motives are, in order to launch an ad hominem attack that discredits me on false and irrelevant charges. But perhaps it is too extreme to call that "lying." Maybe people who identify strongly with Baha'i institutions are incapable of seeing the world in any other terms than supporters/believers versus enemies/attackers. And maybe once they have classified someone in the enemy/attacker camp, they become incapable of perceiving him or her in anything but stereotypical and dehumanizing terms. If someone reaches that stage, perhaps they can no longer choose whether to tell the truth or to lie, because they can no longer make the distinction. Whatever serves the Cause is Truth; whatever criticizes or challenges it is Lie. Karen, congratulations on breaking free of collective paranoia, not an easy thing to do for one who has years invested in a belief system. (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c382b6b24.0@vlinsvr%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 5:00 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: My "Ex-Baha'i" Story ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: My "Ex-Baha'i" Story From: kalamity@my-deja.com Date: 1999/11/12 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai In article <382b6b24.0@vlinsvr>, pjohnson@vlinsvr.vsla.edu (K. Paul Johnson) wrote: > kalamity@my-deja.com wrote: > : > : Then I must respectfully disagree. Some of the proposals in this article > : were controversial, but I can't regard the simple writing of them to be > : an "attack". This was simply an opinion. The Baha'i Faith is in real > : trouble if opinions cannot be given without the fear that someone will > : name them an "attack". > > That's not half the "real trouble." What irks me so about > Susan's misrepresentations of my own history and motives is that > they're based on a Manichaean dichotomy. Good Lord! I got on the > H-Bahai board *only* because Juan asked me to, thinking that a > non-Baha'i who'd published academically (although NOT AN > ACADEMICIAN as you've been reminded) would lend some legitimacy > to the thing. I was very involved in finishing my book on Cayce, > and hardly posted at all on H-Bahai. A few times when I did > post, my own views about Baha'i institutions were apparent, but > at no time did I post with the sole specific intent of attacking them. > And most of my few posts had nothing to do with the subject. All > this complexity-- a reluctant, occasional participant, some of > whose posts rubbed her the wrong way-- gets reduced to a > simplistic "enemy of the Faith" who participated on the H-Bahai > board solely as a means of "attacking the Institutions." > > This reminds me of the time, not so long ago, when Susan attacked > me on another list, answering someone who asked about my Gnosis > article on Talisman. She portrayed me as a flaky dharma hopper who bounced > from one spiritual movement to another, chronically dissatisfied, > a complainer, who had for the time being found temporary refuge > among the followers of Edgar Cayce. Au contraire! I've had > only two spiritual affiliations since leaving Baha'i in 1974, and > they've both lasted over 20 years now, simultaneously, with > various changes of emphasis. Nor had I ever been vocally > dissatisfied with either, until in one case I got > viciously attacked by some fanatics for scholarly work I had > done, 15 years into my tenure in the movement. > > The bottom line here is that her apparent agenda in both cases is to > divert attention from who I really am and what I really think and > what my real motives are, in order to launch an ad hominem attack > that discredits me on false and irrelevant charges. But perhaps > it is too extreme to call that "lying." Maybe people who > identify strongly with Baha'i institutions are incapable of > seeing the world in any other terms than supporters/believers > versus enemies/attackers. And maybe once they have classified > someone in the enemy/attacker camp, they become incapable of > perceiving him or her in anything but stereotypical and > dehumanizing terms. If someone reaches that stage, perhaps they > can no longer choose whether to tell the truth or to lie, because > they can no longer make the distinction. Whatever serves the > Cause is Truth; whatever criticizes or challenges it is Lie. > > Karen, congratulations on breaking free of collective paranoia, > not an easy thing to do for one who has years invested in a > belief system. > Dear Paul, The thing that so shocked me is that I didn't know about the paranoia before. I've lived my entire Baha'i life in an administratively underdeveloped rural area, and I had no idea that this stuff was going on. So to discover that an article that was called an attack was in fact a simple list of reform proposals just completely destroyed any credibilty that the NSA had in my eyes. Then to discover that academics and other people were bullied, intimidated, forced or thrown out of the Faith, just for their opinions . . . . I thought I'd walked into the Twilight Zone or something. This was not any Baha'i Faith that I'd ever intended to be a part of. I do not believe for one minute that Baha'u'llah ever intended for us to treat each other this way. No freakin' way. This is cruel and unjust and not a system that I can belong to in good conscience. Some people think that a person unhappy with the way things are ought to stay in the Faith and try to make it better. But I see no evidence whatsoever that the institutions are at all responsive to the voice of the individual believer, or even groups of believers. On the contrary, all the evidence suggests they just get squashed. I prefer not to be squashed, and I'll make my voice heard where I can. Love, Karen Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c80hp4b$5p8$1@nnrp1.deja.com%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_henry@my-deja.com] Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 5:04 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: My "Ex-Baha'i" Story For those unfamiliar with either, Stephen Scholl's comments on the Dialogue debacle may be found at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Scholl2.htm "A Modest Proposal" at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/modest.htm Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, November 14, 1999 10:27 AM Subject: Re: My "Ex-Baha'i" Story "Just as in the world of politics there is need for free thought, likewise in the world of religion there should be the right of unrestricted individual belief. Consider what a vast difference exists between modern democracy and the old forms of despotism. Under an autocratic government the opinions of men are not free, and development is stifled, whereas in a democracy, because thought and speech are not restricted, the greatest progress is witnessed. It is likewise true in the world of religion. When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization may give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are nevitable." --Abdul-Baha -- Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Zutetflute wrote in message news:19991113115334.07433.00000812@ng-fe1.aol.com... > > > >Patrick, > > > >In regards to a Modest Proposal, I just finished reading the document and i > >was > >frightened by the tone of it. The authors seemed to me to be challenging the > >institutions in a language cloaked with academic terms and jargon. It sounded > >to me like the authors were just eager to gain power in the Bahai' community. > >In addition, the feel was very partisan and political in nature. I certainly > >am > >thankful that our beloved institutions decided to censor it as it would only > >do > >more harm than good. > > > >Peace > > > >Paul > > Were you harmed by it? Did reading it change your mind about the institutions? > No! Because you have a brain and are able to use it. Why is it that people > can never believe in the ability of others to use their own brains, and must > censor materials for others because they fear other people's inability to use > their brains? Or is it because what you're really afraid of is that in using > their brains, people might arrive at a different conclusion than you did? > Don't they have the right to use their own eyes, and not the eyes of others, > and hear with their own ears, and not the ears of others? > > Andree > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 7:22 AM Subject: Re: BAHAI - talk.religion.bahai Agenda for Discussion "The Bahai Technique": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Adelard R wrote in message news:81fama013rj@enews1.newsguy.com... > Dear friends; > > I invite all friends to pray for Patrick Henry.It has been a while that he > has been abusing this wonderful religion. > May the All-Merciful ALLAH forgives him of what he is doing. > > Adelard R. > world citizen > > Patrick Henry wrote in message ... > >I would be happy to discuss any of the acts of oppression and > >tyranny committed by the uhj as documented below on > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > >https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > >I provide the "headlines" below for newcomers and Bahais on > >talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai. Otherwise, I expect to be > >posting less frequently this fall, having learnt during the last three > >years what I needed to know about my fellow Bahais and the uhj.... > > > >I am content to have played a central role in the propagation or > >creation of alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai, forums where > >others may now speak freely about the Bahai faith. > > > >Should anything be posted that might be especially suitable for > >my website, I'd appreciate someone emailing a copy to > >patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com with "Bahai" in the subject line. > > > >Unlikely as it may be, should the uhj come to its senses and > >abolish "review," I'd appreciate someone informing me to > >that effect.... > > > >In the meantime, I must return to my literary interests, prepared > >for, and now accepting, a more arduous psychomachia.... > > > >Others will have to step forward.... > > > >Patrick Henry.... The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > >https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Newcomers might want to start here: > >The Bahai Technique Essential Reading > >soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations Documenting Censorship > >alt.religion.bahai & talk.religion.bahai FAQ(Frequently Asked Questions) > >Bahais on AOL Late 1998 & early 1999 > >Bahai Attacks I & II Fall & Spring 1999 > >Bahai Threats of Lawsuits During Spring 1999 > >Discussion Agenda for Talk.Religion.Bahai (Topics Bahais never discuss) > >To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 > >To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Juan Cole surveys the major incidents of Bahai censorship: > > > >"The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997" > >"The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Baha'i Scriptures" > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Assorted Controversial Documents > >"A Modest Proposal" 1987 > >"The Service of Women" 1988 > >The Majnun Post 2/7/96 > >The Pickering Tape 4/96 > >"Crisis of Faith" 5/15/96 > >Letter: Stephen Birkland, Continental Board of Counsellors 7/16/96 > >"Baha'i Leaders Vexed by On-Line Critics" Winter 1997 > >Stephen Scholl re the suppression of Dialogue Magazine 1997 > >Mark Towfiq's NO Vote Campaign on BCCA mailing lists 3/12/97 > >Susan Maneck's NO Vote Campaign on AOL 12/7/98 > >Michael McKenny - uhj throws him out of the Bahai faith 7/97 > >Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - NSA warns Australian Bahais 11/4/97 > >Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - his response to Bahai NSA Surveillance 9/7/99 > >My case - a letter to my friends Terry Culhane 7/28/99 > >Juan Cole, Dismissal of NSA Member Judge James F. Nelson... April, 1999 > >Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 > >Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" > >Letter of Resignation - Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Universal House of Justice > >From the UHJ: 14 October 1997 > >From the UHJ: 19 December 1997 > >To the UHJ: December 21, 1997 > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Newspaper Articles/Releases > >"Critics chafe at Baha'i conservatism" IRA RIFKIN c.1997 Religion News > >Service > >"Such Freedoms": New York Times, January 1998 NSA > >Media Release 12/6/1998 > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Talk.Religion.Bahai passed 218: 63 > >1st RFD: Talk.Religion.Bahai Jan 17 1997 > >1st RESULT: Talk.Religion.Bahai Mar 27 1997 > >2nd RFD: Talk.Religion.Bahai Jan 12, 1998 > >2nd RESULT: Talk.Religion.Bahai Feb 22, 1998 > >3rd RFD: Talk.Religion.Bahai Sept 28, 1998 > >3rd RESULT: Talk.Religion.Bahai Jan 10, 1999 > >Annotated NO Voters List for the 2nd Interest Poll > >Annotated NO Voters List for the 3rd Interest Poll > >-------------------------------------- > > > >For the full text of the messages above, see > >https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > >Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, > >discusses related issues in his journal article "The > >Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997," > >which surveys the many, many incidents of censorship > >and oppression that have taken place in the Bahai faith > >during the last decade or more: > > > >https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > > >Also see: > > > >Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" > >https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm > > > >Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary > >Board > >https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm > > > >-- > >Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > >https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 7:23 AM Subject: BAHAI - Techniques of the uhj This file contains two messages: "uhj" and "The Bahai Techniques": From: Patrick Henry patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor ; bahai-faith @ makelist.com Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM July 24,1998 Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in Iran would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the international community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, always courting the President and other members of the government, has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents as I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many individuals, Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within the Bahai community and administration. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more than a year and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat twice now, along with the collusion of other Bahais, the creation of an unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under Bahai-Discuss Archives. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA has approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban for more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding talk.religion.bahai. The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," if you will, of Bahai censorship? -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ------------------------------------------------------- THE BAHAI TECHNIQUE: During the last several years or more a number of observers have noted the common methods many Bahais use to avoid various issues or discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: May 12, 1992: "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [over 22]. The usual stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the Truth." Ron House, November 14, 1997: "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so much he says something intemperate, then point out how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this technique works, so I've been making a conscious effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. At any other time, they would overlook faults, as Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode they go for the jugular. Very sad." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/House2.htm June 1998: "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to talk.religion.bahai." "More than twenty different people on my web site have posted messages explaining their experience with srb censorship yet many srb Bahais NEVER address their concerns. Ignoring such charges will not make them go away. NO ONE has to "try" to link the trb interest poll with censorship on srb; the moderators themselves have done that by suppressing droves of people for years. There are many people who believe such suppression is part and parcel of the Bahai community as it exists today. A YES vote need not necessarily support such a belief. There are other reasons Bahais might vote YES." Fran Baker, May 1998: "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a group acts this way. Very scary." Dr. Juan Cole, June 12, 1998: "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified threats of declaring him or her a CB to silence the individual, and if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the gullibility of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket." "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization ostensibly committed to tolerance!" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Cole10.htm K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in their condemnations of their fellow believers, I would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not character assassination by innuendo, what is?" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson18.htm Gibro28W, October 12, 1998: "In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out as "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs of its members in the first place." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb73.htm Barthaman on September 14, 1998: "Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too. Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)-- after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion? Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on, however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud. Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb66.htm Juan Cole wrote, February 23, 1999: "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon them to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do not fall silent." "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech about the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You will note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long-term heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose with the facts,'and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused of all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been backbitten by them." "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute." "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five years. He can explain it to you." Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson21.htm And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb65.htm Comments on the related techniques of Susan Maneck: Juan Cole, February 13, 1999: "It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning, they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion." "I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled with hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just have shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is about has anything at all to do with *universities*!" February 15, 1999: "Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better, since the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. And it then allows her to claim pretty much anything she wants to while seeming to have discredited her opponent. Further, she relies on the tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By shrieking "slander" and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates whatever the topic or content might be and that allows her to appear to win what is often a narrowly legalistic point or interpretation." "All of this is done, of course, in conjunction with her employing the more common Bahai techniques of intimidation and psychological demonization and terrorism." Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm This document at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 7:24 AM Subject: BAHAI - bullying attacks This file contains two messages: "attacks by Bahais" & "Bahai Bullying": Incessant Bahai attacks upon my freedom of speech and liberty, as well as on others, have made it necessary for me to adopt a persona for my own protection and well being. Other measures have been taken. During the late winter and spring of 1999, Bahais twice flooded my hotmail account with up to 1000 messages per day resulting in considerable inconvenience and expenditure of time and effort to block, and ultimately close, the offending accounts; they have, by using numerous Bahai trolls, especially Gyr Falcon, slandered, maligned, and caricatured me in a further effort to discredit me and portray me on talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere as a disturbed and errant individual; through concerted false charges and allegations against me, they have now succeeded in deceiving Hotmail into closing my email account, which I depended on for a considerable part of my income and livelihood. For documentation of many similar incidents of Bahai oppression during the last decade, see The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- BULLYING: I'm alarmed at the Bahai attempts, during May of 1999, at character assassination, ridicule, and generally portraying me and others as disturbed individuals. This tactic has been used for over three years and continues to be used against me and other Bahais and non-Bahais or ex-Bahais. I have never claimed to be perfect. At times I have apologized to Bahais, Muslims, and other non-Bahais when I felt, or was convinced, that I was wrong or had spoken unfairly. I find the constant technique to portray me as a megalomanic or paranoid quite offensive. Similarly, the tactic of accusing me of spam for posting my opinions is calculated to discredit the validity of my and others' concerns regarding censorship in Bahai forums and has also been used on AOL. Such accusations reveal the frustration that Bahai fundamentalists apparently feel over my having found ways of enduring and resisting the onslaught of their concerted attacks, while preserving a historical record on a markedly ephermeral medium for innocent Bahais and non-Bahais.... Fair-minded Bahai and non-Bahai observers may judge for themselves whether my and others' allegations of censorship are valid by reading the record preserved under "Assorted Controversial Documents" on my website at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm As further corroboration that I am not the only person concerned with the intolerance and censorship that has overtaken the Bahai Faith, I recommend Professor Juan Cole's new book Modernity & the Millennium: The Genesis of the Bahai Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East, available through Columbia University Press or Amazon.com at https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0231110812/002-4036721-8058448 In his conclusion, which would never have passed the system of Bahai "review" that the UHJ imposes on all publications brought out under its tight control, Professor Cole, of the Department of History at The University of Michigan, quite accurately identifies the distortions that have been wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings: "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriachy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth- century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed." (196) He himself and many others, as evidence under the "Assorted Controversial Documents," have suffered at the hands of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the religion: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement." (201) These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on AOL, talk.religion.bahai, and alt.religion.bahai for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. As a Bahai for more than 23 years, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. The UHJ is also in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums of public discussion. I recommend all newcomers to these matters read "The Bahai Technique": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm On The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 7:24 AM Subject: BAHAI - talk.religion.bahai FAQ & soc.religion.bahai censorship This file contains two messages: talk.religion.bahai FAQ and observations on soc.religion.bahai censorship: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for Alt.Religion.Bahai, Talk.Religion.Bahai This FAQ will be reposted approximately every two weeks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ People with only web access might want to use www.deja.com www.reference.com or www.newsguy.com or https://www.remarq.com/ They all offer reading and posting capabilities for people who can't directly access alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai and filter out spam. Alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai are available on America Online (AOL) Keyword, Newsgroups, then search for alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai If your ISP does not offer talk.religion.bahai, follow this news.groupie advice: "If your ISP doesn't have the group shortly, I suggest that you ask the newsmaster there to add it (Try news@isp.net, or newsmaster@isp.net) Ask politely. Include the msg ID of the results posting, and of the newgroup msg." Dave Cornejo's RESULT posting: https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp? AN=431106082&CONTEXT=918305125.781648012&hi tnum=0 David Lawrence's newgroup msg creating talk.religion.bahai: https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp? AN=434026333&CONTEXT=918304600.713490686&hi tnum=3 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- NOTE: Not all people agree on the interpretations given below. Question #1 "Why create arb or t.r.b.?" ANSWER #1: Because many people believe they experienced or are continuing to experience censorship when attempting to post to soc.religion.bahai. See the quotations from Abdu'l-Baha: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ANSWER #2: Because the Bahai writings support free speech and religious conscience. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ANSWER #3: [fill in the blank according to your own opinion.] Question #2: "Why do the srb moderators oppose trb?" ANSWER: Perhaps they'll supply an answer to place here. (Three years later their NO votes are their only answer.) Question #3: "Are Bahais opposed to freedom of speech and conscience?" ANSWER: Despite glowing words of love and support for other people's opinions, despite the Universal House of Justice stating at least publicly it is not opposed to an unmoderated forum, the record of actual behavior by Bahais and on soc.religion.bahai and the experience of TENS of THOUSANDS of Bahais and people who have left the Bahai Faith give serious reason for concern. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Chronology of major events: talk.religion.bahai ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- January 17, 1997: The 1st proposal for talk.religion.bahai was submitted to news.announce.newgroups. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/1stRFD.htm Early March 1997: Mark Towfiq, chairman of the BCCA, the Bahai Computer and Communication Association, posts to three Bahai-only mailing lists a call for Bahais to vote NO against talk.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Towfiq.htm March 1997: soc.religion.bahai bans all discussion of talk.religion.bahai from its newsgroup. This ban is still in effect more than a year and a half later. March 31, 1997: The 1st proposal was defeated 157 YES to 691 NO. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/1stRESULT.htm April 3, 1997: Jonathan Grobe, a non-Bahai, creates alt.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/arb.htm October 14, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases a message stating it has no objection to unmoderated newsgroups: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJ1.htm November 1997: At a time when discussion was highly favorable in support of talk.religion.bahai, the BCCA deprives Frederick Glaysher of access to the private Bahai-only mailing list bahai-discuss and all of its other lists, inflaming Bahai passions against trb. See bahai-discuss archived files and correspondence between Frederick Glaysher and the BCCA committee: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm December 19, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases a message that suggests it does not understand the nature of Usenet interest polling: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJ2.htm January 12, 1998: The 2nd proposal for talk.religion.bahai was submitted. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/2ndRFD.htm February 22, 1998: The 2nd proposal was defeated 109 YES to 65 NO. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/2ndRESULT.htm May 25, 1998: srb bans all messages from Frederick Glaysher that contain his signature file: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb23.htm September 9,1998: America Online (AOL) places a Bahai-inspired TOS against Frederick Glaysher; AOL removes the TOS after considering both sides of the issue, i.e., Bahai messages attacking and threatening him and the experience of others: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm September 14, 1998: soc.religion.bahai extends its ban on Frederick Glaysher's signature file to include all signature files and URLs from all posters, allowing only email addresses and the name of the poster: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srbban.htm October 14, 1998: Soc.religion.bahai moderator Bill Hyman backbites and casts aspersions on proponent Ron House and attempts to undermine the new support for the "neutral" RFD: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb67.htm December 3, 1998: The Call For Votes (CFV) was posted to news.announce.newgroups and news.groups for the 3rd interest poll for talk.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRFD.htm December 7, 1998: Bahai scholar Susan Maneck begins her NO vote campaign on AOL and alt.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm January 10, 1999: Talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRESULT.htm It should be noted that talk.religion.bahai eventually passed despite of the opposition of Bahais. The annotated RESULT may be read at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRESULT.htm The annotated NO voters list may be read at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/NOvoters3rd.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------ For past discussion of censorship on soc.religion.bahai and other issues, including censorship within the Bahai community, see the website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/index.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This document at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/FAQ.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------------------------------------------------- SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI: Robert J. Pease, December 5, 1998: "I support your efforts to expose SRB as a fundamentalist group." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb84.htm Ron House: "I think the following is a clear case of malicious rejection of an article by the worst of the moderators of soc.religion.bahai." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb53.htm Timothy Mulligan: "(Sigh) Fred, I'm beginning to think you're right about those SRB moderators." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb59.htm RobertNik: "these guys are pompous arseholes IMHO." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb54.htm Bruce Burrill: "What are Baha'i afraid of?" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb60.htm Zuteflute: "Frankly I could not see anything in the letter I wrote which would prompt someone to ask whether or not I am a Baha'i." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb50.htm YU ZIR: "But as an outsider, I can perhaps see the point Fred Glaysher is making, and which point none of SRB's defenders seem to address." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb46.htm Matthew Cromer: "The current moderators regulate the contents--posting articles which they agree with...." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb47.htm Kavosh Soltani, December 9, 1998: "So many Bahais on these forums have shown to be ready to forget logic and reason, ignore clear evidence and Word of God, and come up with exactly the same line of tired and inaccurate excuses and arguments to justify their position, that it can not be a simple coincidence." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb77.htm Shakti3, December 4, 1998: "Sorry to hear that you've been surpressed on srb. Your comments were alway very "right on." Altho it does not surprise me one bit, seeing the way these newsgroups operate." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Ex7.htm Harold Shinsato: "It seems like there is an oppression over the Baha'i Faith." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb33.htm Steve Tomljenovic, December 3, 1998: "The moderators are a bit overzealous at times. Since all the controversy started, it has gotten worse." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb79.htm Laeterna: "To say I was flabberghasted at this type of "moderating" was putting it mildly indeed." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/censored2.htm Guy Macon" "Please explain which portion of the charter the following post violates." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/censored1.htm Robin Peters: "I think you're to be commended for your persistence in the face of consistent censorship." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb43.htm jgoldberg: "I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. " https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb57.htm Ruletherod, November 17, 1998: "Too much damage has already been done in the name and to the name of Baha'u'llah by right-wing administrative bullies, linear-thinking apologists, and doctrinaire-fundamentalists. You can't just blame it all on the critics." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb76.htm Many other similar messages may be found on my web site under soc.religion.bahai censorship. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 7:24 AM Subject: Re: BAHAI - Lawsuit Threats & Censorship on AOL This file contains two messages: "Bahai Threats of Lawsuits" and "Bahai Censorship on AOL": Given the Bahai threats of lawsuits against me during the spring and early summer of 1999 let me say I have never committed slander against any individual, Bahai or otherwise, nor against any Bahai institution. If anyone has been slandered on talk.religion.bahai, it is I by the constant character assassination Bahais have marshalled against me for nearly three years. I'd be happy to appear in court and present an American judge and jury with the evidence of Bahai lies, deceit, censorship, and tyranny over the last decade. I highly doubt any legitimately established jury would look favorably on what Bahai fundamentalists have done to the Walbridges, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Stephen Scholl, and many, many other, indeed, TENS of THOUSANDS, of American ex-Bahais.... I'd be happy to appear in an American court and present the judge and jury with the many passages from the Bahai Writings in which the Figures speak favorably of free speech and conscience, such as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. Only one of the nine tyrants on Mt. Carmel could distort such passages to mean the kinds of things they have had the gall to foist on American Bahais in their statement this April, which Professor Juan Cole has candidly and accurately referred to as an "outburst of vehement ignorance." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Bahais falsely accuse me of slander. Far from slandering the UHJ, I have stood up to Bahai fundamentalists and honestly spoken my conscience. They are free to call that "slander." I doubt any judge or jury in the West would call it such, especially after reading the EVIDENCE and reflecting on the enormous discrepancy between the sycophantic treatment leaders in government, the UN, and the media regularly receive from Bahais who are always interested in attempting to exploit their positions of power for one reason or another and the reality of abuse of the most basic human rights now well documented on Professor Juan Cole's website and on mine. I trust the American legal system to protect me from such organizations and fundamentalist reprobates. The objective observer will note the Bahai tactic of resorting to threats and intimidation instead of engaging in discussion of the actual incidents of censorship and oppression, extensively noted in "The Bahai Technique." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm Such tactics remind me of a comment by Dr. Martin Luther King in his Letter from Birmingham Jail: "You deplore the demonstrations taking place in Birmingham. But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations." Fundamentalist Bahais typify this same mentality. They rail and threaten me, and others who dare speak their minds, but express no concern whatsoever for the underlying conditions of censorship and oppression that have led to distrust and contempt for the UHJ and its fascist distortion of Baha'u'llah's Teachings. Everything I have said is a matter of religious conscience protected under the US Constitution. My Bahai membership card proves it, and a scanned copy of it may be found on my website. I would be happy to present the original to any judge or jury in the land. "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." --Thomas Jefferson -- Patrick Henry "Give me liberty or give me death." Visit The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Saman Ahmadi wrote in message news:376EF2DE.221BD43@earthlink.net... > > I have stated that I may sue you - that is singular. I am not aware of > anyone else's attempt. BTW, my suing you is not a threat - a threat > is I will do this if you do that. You have already crossed that line. > I > said I would first take it up with Dejanews - Roger pointed out that > you were not using Dejanews to post your articles so I suppose it > is bigfoot at first. > > Now, if it gets to the point that I decide to sue you, I will offer > anyone > who wishes to join in a class-action suit, if that is legally possible. > > My feet are firmly on the ground - I am not joking or mincing words. > > Saman Ahmadi > > > Patrick Henry wrote: > > > Given the recurrent Bahai threats of lawsuits against me, > > let me say I have never committed slander. > > P.S. Ever heard of the Furman tapes? > ------------------------------------------------------------- BAHAI CENSORSHIP ON AOL: In August of 1998 I took out an account on AOL. It quickly became apparent that my fellow Bahais were using AOL in such a way as to further withhold knowledge and information from AOL's more than 14 million members. It appeared to me that there were four main issues. Alt.religion.bahai, which had been created in April of 1997 and which had had more than 20,000 messages posted to it, was not even offered in the list of AOL newsgroups. AOL personnel with which I spoke over the phone were very puzzled why it wasn't and even implied that some action would have had to have been taken to keep it from automatically being picked up and added to their newsgroups. It took more than a month of strenuous effort to get AOL to add alt.religion.bahai. On the AOL Bahai Forums it became apparent that Bahais were manipulating and controlling information by NOT making it available, by essentially preserving the frozen, non-functioning state of affairs or the status quo: 1. The Libraries were not accepting new uploads for others then to download and read. 2. The list of Newsgroups on the Main Menu for Bahai offered only soc.religion.bahai with no mention of alt.religion.bahai, or talk.religion.bahai once it was created in January of 1999. Coupled with soc.religion.bahai's suppression of all mention of alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai, this prevents people from even hearing of their existence. 3. The available links for Web Sites on the Main Menu for Bahai did not offered my website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience, though it has to be one of the most visited sites on the Bahai Faith with more than 7,000 hits since May 1998. As the months went by, my repeated attempts to improve these deficiencies met with greater and greater opposition from the Bahai fundamentalists on AOL. Similiarly, my requests, beginning in August of 1998, that the Forum Leader, Mark Foster, who no one had seen for months, resign, for derilection of duty, were increasingly opposed while various excuses were offered for his absence. Not until talk.religion.bahai was passed five months later in January 1999 did he suddenly reappear only to begin immediately reporting absolutely EVERY message I posted to AOL as a TOS. It quickly became clear to me that he was back in order to target and build a case against me to have me suspended from AOL. My account was then temporarily suspended on three different occasions and finally terminated March 6, 1999. Of the four issues, only two have partially been remedied. 1. Alt.religion.bahai and now talk.religion.bahai are available under AOL's Keyword Newsgroups, Expert Add. 2. The Libraries are accepting some uploads, though Foster banned the 15+ megabytes I uploaded in late February of my entire archive of discussion for talk.religion.bahai and which is at least available on my website. It's obvious Foster is finding pretexts for suppressing further uploads. While Foster has claimed since mid-January that alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai would be added to the Main Menu under Newsgroups, he continued to make excuses for it not happening. As of March 9, 1999 they were not yet listed under Newsgroups along with soc.religion.bahai. All of these factors, coupled with Mark Foster's abuse of his position as Forum Leader and his harassing and targetting of dissenting voices, not only mine, leaves no doubt that he and other Bahais, including some among the Bahai Administration, are involved in manipulating and censoring discourse on AOL. For an instance of "back-channel" email coercion on AOL see https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm For an instance of Foster's double standard handling fundamentalist Bahais see Susan Maneck's accusations on AOL against me of "slander" and references to my views as "garbage" and "litter": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm The immediate pretext for terminating my account, according to the AOL official with whom I spoke on the phone, was that I had pointed out in a newly created Folder called Censorship that I and other AOL members had requested a Folder entitled Bahai Censorship and thereby undermined the authority of the Forum Leader.... In closing let me add that AOL personnel are extremely uninformed about the Bahai Faith, especially its practice of censorship, and its ability to exploit the TOS system.... Half a megabyte of messages documenting Bahai censorship on AOL may be found at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 7:25 AM Subject: BAHAI - talk.religion.bahai Agenda for Discussion I would be happy to discuss any of the acts of oppression and tyranny committed by the uhj as documented below on The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm I provide the "headlines" below for newcomers and Bahais on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai. Otherwise, I expect to be posting less frequently this fall, having learnt during the last three years what I needed to know about my fellow Bahais and the uhj.... I am content to have played a central role in the propagation or creation of alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai, forums where others may now speak freely about the Bahai faith. Should anything be posted that might be especially suitable for my website, I'd appreciate someone emailing a copy to patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com with "Bahai" in the subject line. Unlikely as it may be, should the uhj come to its senses and abolish "review," I'd appreciate someone informing me to that effect.... In the meantime, I must return to my literary interests, prepared for, and now accepting, a more arduous psychomachia.... Others will have to step forward.... Patrick Henry.... The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------- Newcomers might want to start here: The Bahai Technique Essential Reading soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations Documenting Censorship alt.religion.bahai & talk.religion.bahai FAQ(Frequently Asked Questions) Bahais on AOL Late 1998 & early 1999 Bahai Attacks I & II Fall & Spring 1999 Bahai Threats of Lawsuits During Spring 1999 Discussion Agenda for Talk.Religion.Bahai (Topics Bahais never discuss) To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Juan Cole surveys the major incidents of Bahai censorship: "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997" "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Baha'i Scriptures" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Assorted Controversial Documents "A Modest Proposal" 1987 "The Service of Women" 1988 The Majnun Post 2/7/96 The Pickering Tape 4/96 "Crisis of Faith" 5/15/96 Letter: Stephen Birkland, Continental Board of Counsellors 7/16/96 "Baha'i Leaders Vexed by On-Line Critics" Winter 1997 Stephen Scholl re the suppression of Dialogue Magazine 1997 Mark Towfiq's NO Vote Campaign on BCCA mailing lists 3/12/97 Susan Maneck's NO Vote Campaign on AOL 12/7/98 Michael McKenny - uhj throws him out of the Bahai faith 7/97 Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - NSA warns Australian Bahais 11/4/97 Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - his response to Bahai NSA Surveillance 9/7/99 My case - a letter to my friends Terry Culhane 7/28/99 Juan Cole, Dismissal of NSA Member Judge James F. Nelson... April, 1999 Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" Letter of Resignation - Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Universal House of Justice From the UHJ: 14 October 1997 From the UHJ: 19 December 1997 To the UHJ: December 21, 1997 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Newspaper Articles/Releases "Critics chafe at Baha'i conservatism" IRA RIFKIN c.1997 Religion News Service "Such Freedoms": New York Times, January 1998 NSA Media Release 12/6/1998 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Talk.Religion.Bahai passed 218: 63 1st RFD: Talk.Religion.Bahai Jan 17 1997 1st RESULT: Talk.Religion.Bahai Mar 27 1997 2nd RFD: Talk.Religion.Bahai Jan 12, 1998 2nd RESULT: Talk.Religion.Bahai Feb 22, 1998 3rd RFD: Talk.Religion.Bahai Sept 28, 1998 3rd RESULT: Talk.Religion.Bahai Jan 10, 1999 Annotated NO Voters List for the 2nd Interest Poll Annotated NO Voters List for the 3rd Interest Poll -------------------------------------- For the full text of the messages above, see https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997," which surveys the many, many incidents of censorship and oppression that have taken place in the Bahai faith during the last decade or more: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 1:26 PM Subject: Re: Patrick Henry Please Stop the Spam Fellas, You're free to think what you want and call my reposts "spam" if you like.... I dare say we're not going to agree on the matter. -- Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm K. Paul Johnson wrote in message news:383c26f4.0@vlinsvr... > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > : Please please please stop spamming this news > : group. > > I'll echo that with another thousand "pleases" but > odds are that it will only encourage him. > > : This has nothing to do with you or your ideas - I > : am just really tired of the Spam. > > Ditto. > : > : Please stop. > > Don't hold your breath. > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, November 26, 1999 11:25 AM Subject: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience For those Bahais and non-Bahais interested, there has been a major update of my website this fall with the addition of over 5 megabytes of information. -- Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, November 27, 1999 9:14 AM Subject: Re: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Here's a fine example of "Bahai love." Note this person and other Bahais never show such emotion over the censorship and suppression of the people documented on my website but only bend every effort to portraying me and others who would speak the truth about the uhj's distortion of Baha'u'llah's Teachings in a negative light lest anyone perceive what the Bahai faith really amounts to these days.... -- Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Mark Elderkin wrote in message news:8lF%3.91$GD2.3415@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net... > PH, > Would you go away if it were proved that no one cares what you are > posting? Check the last six times you have posted this 'whatever' and let me > know about anyone who has cared enough to respond besides myself. There are > two kinds of oats in this world..... the ones going into the front of the > horse and the ones coming from the back. Mabe it's time you change from back > to front and come up with some originality and fresh oats. > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, November 27, 1999 9:30 AM Subject: Re: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience - 11, 963 hits > Mark Elderkin wrote in message > news:8lF%3.91$GD2.3415@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net... > > PH, > > Would you go away if it were proved that no one cares what you are > > posting? It occurs to me that fair-minded people will note the counter on my website registers 11,963 hits of no interest in fundamentalist Bahai lies and censorship since May of 1998.... That's obviously what worries the fanatics among my fellow Bahais who continue to attack, backbite, and malign me.... -- Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, November 27, 1999 5:14 PM Subject: Re: Nouri Sentenced To 5 Years In Prison This is basically how the Bahai uhj operates as well.... -- Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Cyrus Iran wrote in message news:19991127161632.21775.00000785@ng-fy1.aol.com... > Leading Iran Reformist Sentenced > > By AFSHIN VALINEJAD > > TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - The boldest ally of Iran's reformist president was > sentenced to five years in prison Saturday, the latest twist in a power > struggle over free debate, democracy and tolerance. > > The move against Abdollah Nouri, a former interior minister and director of the > popular Khordad daily, was the most ambitious bid by hard-liners to cling to > power despite waning popularity. > > With the verdict, Nouri also was banned from running in upcoming parliamentary > elections, and from holding any media-related position for five years, > state-run Tehran radio said. Executives at Khordad confirmed the verdict. > > The Tehran court fined Nouri $5,000, and ordered his newspaper to close, it > said. > > During the trial, which began Oct. 30, Nouri turned the case around to focus on > Iran's Islamic establishment, charging that the 1979 revolution in the name of > democracy had gone astray. > > His greatest challenge had been to the legitimacy of Iran's unelected supreme > leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. > > Khamenei succeeded the revered revolutionary leader, Ayatollah Ruhollah > Khomeini, in 1989. He leads the hard-liners and has used his absolute powers to > stall reforms initiated by President Mohammad Khatami, who was elected by a > landslide in May 1997. > > ``Everyone, even the leader, is bound by the Constitution and does not have > unlimited powers,'' Nouri told the court during his trial. > > Statements like these worried the hard-liners, who have been out of step with > the nation's mood. > > ``Mr. Nouri raised issues during his trial that others also have been meaning > to raise but did not have the courage,'' Ayatollah Jalalledin Taheri, a senior > cleric and Nouri's mentor, said after the verdict was announced. > > ``Mr. Nouri's comments breathed new life into the dead issues of the > revolution, and it was he who was trying the court, not the other way around,'' > Taheri said in a meeting with Nouri's parents in the city of Isfahan. > > Several leading reformists were outside the Tehran courthouse in a show of > support for Nouri, a middle-level cleric. > > Mahmoud Shams, the editor-in-chief of the reformist Asr-e-Azadegan, who was > still awaiting a verdict on charges that include insulting Islam, said that his > trial and Nouri's conviction were steps toward democracy. > > ``What is happening to Mr. Nouri and myself is the price of democracy,'' he > told The Associated Press. ``A few years ago intellectuals and reformists would > be given capital punishment or they would be otherwise eliminated. Now, we are > only getting jail terms. This is a step forward.'' > > State-run television said another court had sentenced Shams to a three-year > jail term and fined him $5,000. But Shams said he had not yet been notified of > a verdict. > > Nouri was flanked by eight bodyguards when he arrived at the courthouse. Police > lined the route from the court to Evin Prison on the foothills of the Alborz > Mountains in northern Tehran. > > Several of Khatami's allies also have been hauled into court by the > hard-liners, and three leading reformist newspapers have been shut down in the > last year. > > Hard-liners were at risk of losing the presidency of the parliament to Nouri, > who was expected to run in Feb. 18 elections. > > The guilty verdict bars him from contesting the post. But the country's top > reformist group said it would field Nouri as a candidate anyway. Many Iranians > said that, if Nouri's name was on the ballot, they would write it in to send a > message to the hard-line clergy. > > ``I was truly sorry to hear the verdict against Mr. Nouri,'' said Ahmad Reza, a > 38-year-old businessman. ``There's a saying that revolutions devour their own > sons. I hope that is not what's happening in Iran. > > 11-27-99 > > ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 6:28 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Farewell! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Farewell! From: berekiah1@my-deja.com Date: 1999/11/29 Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai Friends, Romans, former co-religionists! It seems to me that my continued participation on this and other Baha'i related internet forums in general is serving no purpose and causing further grief to myself especially when facing the fact how a religion as noble as that of Baha'u'llah's should have come to what we behold before us today. But more so, to see the views being expressed by certain of His adherents. When I resigned from the Baha'i faith in late 1996, I promised myself I would never again have anything more do with the Baha'i Faith in any manner or form, and for the first year I stayed true to my initial pledge until I was officially slandered in November 1997 by the offices of the Secretary-General of the US NSA to the Australian NSA. Seeing that the Baha'i organization will indefinitely remain how it is and that adherents will continue to defend the status quo without realizing that the dark side of their administrative world does in fact exist, I will cease my posting here. From time to time I might peek in and look, but no more posts for the time being. I apologize to one and all whom I have reprimanded, scolded or otherwise insulted over the past months and wish you well in your lives, pursuits, hopes, goals and dreams. May your paths be blessed and may the Almighty grant you some measure of insight day by day! Farewell! Cheers, Nima Hazini (aka Berekiah) Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c81t5cg$u36$1@nnrp1.deja.com%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_henry@my-deja.com] Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 6:39 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Farewell! Nima, Sorry to see you go but you obviously know what's best for yourself. Thanks for having the courage of your convictions and sharing your many insights on your experiences as a Bahai. I believe you're right that the uhj and its unsuspecting victims will only continue along the path of literal-minded fanaticism. My view of how to respond to that reality differs from yours. I would argue it is all the more important to bear witness for those who are being cynically exploited within the Bahai faith and for the good of those who are at the mercy of the distortions used to seduce them into it. All the best to you. Drop in once in a while.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm In article <81t5cg$u36$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, berekiah1@my-deja.com wrote: > Friends, Romans, former co-religionists! > > It seems to me that my continued participation on this and other Baha'i > related internet forums in general is serving no purpose and causing > further grief to myself especially when facing the fact how a religion > as noble as that of Baha'u'llah's should have come to what we behold > before us today. But more so, to see the views being expressed by > certain of His adherents. When I resigned from the Baha'i faith in late > 1996, I promised myself I would never again have anything more do with > the Baha'i Faith in any manner or form, and for the first year I stayed > true to my initial pledge until I was officially slandered in November > 1997 by the offices of the Secretary-General of the US NSA to the > Australian NSA. > Seeing that the Baha'i organization will indefinitely remain how it > is and that adherents will continue to defend the status quo without > realizing that the dark side of their administrative world does in fact > exist, I will cease my posting here. From time to time I might peek in > and look, but no more posts for the time being. I apologize to one and > all whom I have reprimanded, scolded or otherwise insulted over the past > months and wish you well in your lives, pursuits, hopes, goals and > dreams. May your paths be blessed and may the Almighty grant you some > measure of insight day by day! Farewell! > > Cheers, > Nima Hazini (aka Berekiah) > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 7:42 AM Subject: Re: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Quite false. Indeed, it has been the literalists among the Bahais who have failed to engage in conversation regarding the many incidents of censorship and coercion that have taken place over the last decade or so and that may be found documented on my website. This allegation is an old ruse used by many Bahais. Independent thinkers will be able to perceive your attempt to discredit dissenters. "The Bahai Technique": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Ron House wrote in message news:3841E811.61AFDAA3@usq.edu.au... > Patrick Henry wrote: > > > > Here's a fine example of "Bahai love." Note this person > > and other Bahais never show such emotion over the > > censorship and suppression of the people documented on > > my website but only bend every effort to portraying me > > and others who would speak the truth about the uhj's > > distortion of Baha'u'llah's Teachings in a negative light > > lest anyone perceive what the Bahai faith really amounts > > to these days.... > > Perhaps people might show some emotion if they had found, after posting > comments to your articles, that you engaged in _dialog_. However, you > have consistently refused to engage in any discussion of the issues you > raise; you have never answered anyone's questions to you about your > beliefs, even when the questions were more or less Dorothy Dixers, and > would have given any sincere person who cared to interact with real > humans a marvellous showcase for their convictions. Once bitten twice > shy. > > -- > Ron House house@usq.edu.au > > Truth requires courage. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 7:45 AM Subject: Re: Nouri Sentenced To 5 Years In Prison What you and other Bahais call "dialogue" was demonstrated quite effectively in the suppression of Dialogue magazine by the fascists on the NSA of the United States of America.... Objective observers may read the details on my website along with a link to the original magazine issues scanned in on the web. -- Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Ron House wrote in message news:3841EC71.25A028DD@usq.edu.au... > berekiah1@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > Fred's got a clue, imo, however he expresses it. It's the rest of the > > Baha'is who need to come out of their dogged complacency and look around > > them a little and figure out what their religion has actually turned > > into. > > The truth shall set you free, but first it'll piss you off! > > > > Berekiah > > The problem isn't with fred's clue or otherwise, but with his insistence > on refusing to engage in real dialogue, his irresponsibility in dragging > Baha'i issues before Iranian moslems, and reposting articles in disguise > so that people who don't want to read them inadvertently do. > > -- > Ron House house@usq.edu.au > > Truth requires courage. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 7:49 AM Subject: Re: Nouri Sentenced To 5 Years In Prison Ron House wrote in message news:3841EA30.7A1D0202@usq.edu.au... > Patrick Henry wrote: > > > > This is basically how the Bahai uhj operates as well.... > > Grow up, Fred. This newsgroup has been running very well for some months > now without your continuous mindless ranting. (And yes, that's what I > call it when all someone can do is wait until others post a new original > article and then add a one-liner "See, this is the of > the UHJ.") > > And stop posting Baha'i articles to Iranian newsgroups. I'll give you my > own insult for that: you don't particularly object to causing murder - > and that's something God will hold you accountable for, and it'll be far > too late if it actually happens thanks to your irresponsibility and > self-indulgent spitefulness. That the uhj and nsa's had no compunctions about murdering Daniel Jordan is not my fault.... That they continue coercing and threatening others won't work with me even when it's through their lackies.... Given that the uhj is no better than the mullahs, it makes sense to post to soc.religion.iranian.... -- Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > Cyrus Iran wrote in message > > news:19991127161632.21775.00000785@ng-fy1.aol.com... > > > Leading Iran Reformist Sentenced > > > > > > By AFSHIN VALINEJAD > > > > > > TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - The boldest ally of Iran's reformist president was > > > sentenced to five years in prison Saturday, the latest twist in a power > > > struggle over free debate, democracy and tolerance. > > -- > Ron House house@usq.edu.au > > Truth requires courage. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 7:54 AM Subject: Re: Nouri Sentenced To 5 Years In Prison Ron, Incidentally, your Maneck-like backbiting and slander are transparent.... -- Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Ron House wrote in message news:3841EA30.7A1D0202@usq.edu.au... > Patrick Henry wrote: > > > > This is basically how the Bahai uhj operates as well.... > > Grow up, Fred. This newsgroup has been running very well for some months > now without your continuous mindless ranting. (And yes, that's what I > call it when all someone can do is wait until others post a new original > article and then add a one-liner "See, this is the of > the UHJ.") > > And stop posting Baha'i articles to Iranian newsgroups. I'll give you my > own insult for that: you don't particularly object to causing murder - > and that's something God will hold you accountable for, and it'll be far > too late if it actually happens thanks to your irresponsibility and > self-indulgent spitefulness. > > > Cyrus Iran wrote in message > > news:19991127161632.21775.00000785@ng-fy1.aol.com... > > > Leading Iran Reformist Sentenced > > > > > > By AFSHIN VALINEJAD > > > > > > TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - The boldest ally of Iran's reformist president was > > > sentenced to five years in prison Saturday, the latest twist in a power > > > struggle over free debate, democracy and tolerance. > > -- > Ron House house@usq.edu.au > > Truth requires courage. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 11:53 AM Subject: Bahai Threatens MURDER - (Was Re: Nouri Sentenced To 5 Years In Prison) Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com wrote: > > That the uhj and nsa's had no compunctions about [apparently] > > murdering Daniel Jordan is not my fault.... > Ron House wrote in message news:38473A4F.C0029A9@usq.edu.au...: > Fred has absolutely no evidence for this assertion. He presents other > people's stating of their _suspicions_ as if the mere fact that someone > thinks it becomes evidence. Add to that the fact that if they were going > to murder people, they'd start with more itrritating targets than the > wonderful Daniel Jordan. It just makes no sense, as well as being > without any evidential support There's plenty of evidence for support of several Bahais who independently suspected the uhj or members of its regime were behind Dr. Daniel Jordan's murder in New York in the early 80's. Murder would be entirely within the real of possibility for a dictatorial system that has committed the kind of intrigues documented on my website. Furthermore, I consider Ron House's statement here "that if they were going to murder people, they'd start with more itrritating targets than the wonderful Daniel Jordan" a veiled but obvious threat by a Bahai against my own life.... As a member of the Bahai for over 23 years, I am appalled by the continuing fascist perversions of the Teachings of Baha'u'llah encouraged by the uhj among its fanatic members under its tight, intolerant control.... I demand an apology and retraction. -- Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 12:21 PM To: talisman Subject: Bahai Threatens MURDER Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com wrote: > > That the uhj and nsa's had no compunctions about [apparently] > > murdering Daniel Jordan is not my fault.... > Ron House wrote in message news:38473A4F.C0029A9@usq.edu.au...: > Fred has absolutely no evidence for this assertion. He presents other > people's stating of their _suspicions_ as if the mere fact that someone > thinks it becomes evidence. Add to that the fact that if they were going > to murder people, they'd start with more itrritating targets than the > wonderful Daniel Jordan. It just makes no sense, as well as being > without any evidential support There's plenty of evidence for support of several Bahais who independently suspected the uhj or members of its regime were behind Dr. Daniel Jordan's murder in New York in the early 80's. Murder would be entirely within the real of possibility for a dictatorial system that has committed the kind of intrigues documented on my website. Furthermore, I consider Ron House's statement here "that if they were going to murder people, they'd start with more itrritating targets than the wonderful Daniel Jordan" a veiled but obvious threat by a Bahai against my own life.... As a member of the Bahai for over 23 years, I am appalled by the continuing fascist perversions of the Teachings of Baha'u'llah encouraged by the uhj among its fanatic members under its tight, intolerant control.... I demand an apology and retraction. -- Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, December 04, 1999 9:20 AM Subject: Re: Bahai Threatens MURDER - (Was Re: Nouri Sentenced To 5 Years In Prison) A cute response, Ron, but your intimation won't be lost on fair-minded observers: Patrick_Henry wrote: > Furthermore, I consider Ron House's statement here "that if they were > going to murder people, they'd start with more itrritating targets than the > wonderful Daniel Jordan" a veiled but obvious threat by a Bahai against > my own life.... -- Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Ron House wrote in message news:384887A1.7127E81E@usq.edu.au... > > Ron House wrote in message > > news:38473A4F.C0029A9@usq.edu.au...: > > > Fred has absolutely no evidence for this assertion. He presents other > > > people's stating of their _suspicions_ as if the mere fact that someone > > > thinks it becomes evidence. Add to that the fact that if they were going > > > to murder people, they'd start with more itrritating targets than the > > > wonderful Daniel Jordan. It just makes no sense, as well as being > > > without any evidential support > > > > There's plenty of evidence for support of several Bahais who > > independently suspected the uhj or members of its regime were > > behind Dr. Daniel Jordan's murder in New York in the early 80's. > > Suspicion is not evidence, even if the whole planet suspected it. > > > Murder would be entirely within the real of possibility for a dictatorial > > system that has committed the kind of intrigues documented on > > my website. > > I am not talking possibilities. I am discussing evidence for a specific > accusation - of which you haven't provided any. > > > Furthermore, I consider Ron House's statement here "that if they were > > going to murder people, they'd start with more itrritating targets than the > > wonderful Daniel Jordan" a veiled but obvious threat by a Bahai against > > my own life.... > > No, it's an argument about the likelihood that the administration is > involved in such crimes. Logic tells one that anyone risking the danger > of getting jailed for murder will get rid of their most dangerous > opponents first, whereas DJ was scarcely an opponent at all. As the > really threatening people haven't been forced to involuntarily hand in > their dinner pails, it seems unlikely that the admin would murder anyone > at all. And I didn't have you in mind. You don't irritate THEM, you > irritate US. They need an example of someone who fits their classic > portrait of an "Enemy of the Faith", malice, distortions of the truth, > and the whole nine yards. Far from murdering you, it wouldn't surprise > me if they've assigned a guardian angel to make sure you don't get run > down by a bus. (And no, that's not a threat by your local bus company, > and yes, it's a :-) .) > > > ... > > > I demand an apology and retraction. > > Retract the statement that you have no evidence? You can demolish that > simply by providing the evidence. The ball's in your court. > > -- > Ron House house@usq.edu.au > > Truth requires courage. > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, December 05, 1999 5:24 PM Subject: Re: **bahai** soc.religion.bahai censorship & talk.religion.bahai FAQ Adelard R wrote in message news:82ej4502hgg@enews3.newsguy.com... > May ALLAH help you understand what you are doing. Please have merci for> your soul and your kind. May Allah help the uhj understand what it has done to Baha'u'llah's Teachings.... And have mercy on the souls it has and continues to crush.... -- Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 7:34 AM Subject: Re: Bahai Threatens MURDER - (Was Re: Nouri Sentenced To 5 Years In Prison) David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila wrote in message news:C5B24.533$jC1.49582@newshog.newsread.com... > I am not familiar with the name or the case. This is a very strong > accusation. What direct evidence do you have that any Baha'i Institution > was involved in a murder plot? As has been observed on numerous occasions, SEVERAL Bahais, independent of one another, feared, at the time of Dr. Daniel Jordan's murder in the early 80's, that the Bahai administration or someone closely associated with it, perhaps one of the Iranian Bahais who actually control it from behind the scenes, was responsible for his assassination style murder. News reports of the time stated the manner in which he died suggested a professionally trained killer.... A number of messages on Jordan's murder may be found on my website. All of the newsgroups in this header are relevant to this topic. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > Peace, > > Dave > > BTW - I have deleted all other NGs from my question because we should try to > keep to this Groups charter which states: > > "Cross-posting to irrelevant groups is also discouraged, and readers > are encouraged to redirect follow-ups to reduce excessive > cross-posting." > > Patrick Henry wrote in message ... > > >There's plenty of evidence for support of several Bahais who > >independently suspected the uhj or members of its regime were > >behind Dr. Daniel Jordan's murder in New York in the early 80's. > > >-- > >Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > >https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 3:06 PM Subject: Re: Question See "Service of Women" for a historical perspective on this issue: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Mike Willsey wrote in message news:jyj34.217$CO2.14236@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > Hello, I've been looking into Bahai information on and off for a few > years. Having found this newsgroup recently, I thought I'd see if someone > would respond to questions. > I have no connection to any religious group now or in the past to speak > of. Of all of the groups around, I find Bahai the most appealing. > I've already developed my conception of what is valid and what isn't > valid regarding religious beliefs. Most are stated in the booklet, > "Becoming a Bahai", that I picked up in Wilmet. > It's my opinion that there is always an inherent danger that the true > desires of God are contaminated by men. By reading this Bahai newsgroup > recently, I noticed concern that the leaders of the Bahai religion don't > abide by Gods wishes. The thread stated that woman are not given membership > in U.H. of J.. Is this true? > > Michael A. Willsey > m_willsey@yahoo.com > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 3:10 PM Subject: Re: Question You might also want to look under "Michael McKenny": -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Mike Willsey wrote in message news:jyj34.217$CO2.14236@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net... > Hello, I've been looking into Bahai information on and off for a few > years. Having found this newsgroup recently, I thought I'd see if someone > would respond to questions. > I have no connection to any religious group now or in the past to speak > of. Of all of the groups around, I find Bahai the most appealing. > I've already developed my conception of what is valid and what isn't > valid regarding religious beliefs. Most are stated in the booklet, > "Becoming a Bahai", that I picked up in Wilmet. > It's my opinion that there is always an inherent danger that the true > desires of God are contaminated by men. By reading this Bahai newsgroup > recently, I noticed concern that the leaders of the Bahai religion don't > abide by Gods wishes. The thread stated that woman are not given membership > in U.H. of J.. Is this true? > > Michael A. Willsey > m_willsey@yahoo.com > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 7:59 AM Subject: Re: Bahai Threatens MURDER - (Was Re: Nouri Sentenced To 5 Years In Prison) I've never claimed that I had evidence that the Bahai administration, or someone who controls it from behind the scenes, had murdered Dr. Daniel Jordan. What I've always said is that the fact that SEVERAL Bahais unknown to each other at the time and came independently to consider it as a possibility SAYS VOLUMES about the atmosphere of coercion and oppression that actually exists within the Bahai faith. Historically, such tyrannical regimes often have committed murder, as I believe quite probably the uhj did to eliminate an American who perhaps learned something they didn't want him to know and reveal.... The pervasive atmosphere of tyranny and oppression is documented on my website. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila wrote in message news:zwG34.1498$jC1.149490@newshog.newsread.com... > 1. The statement that some one has a fear that someone will do something > bad to someone else is not evidence. > > 2. My apologies for the cross post to irrelevant news groups but it seems > my friend Fred feels that soc.culture.iranian and soc.culture.israel are > appropriate outlets for this topic. I will let those who participate on > those lists make that decision. > > Peace, > > Dave Fiorito > > Patrick Henry wrote in message ... > > > >David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila wrote in message > >news:C5B24.533$jC1.49582@newshog.newsread.com... > >> I am not familiar with the name or the case. This is a very strong > >> accusation. What direct evidence do you have that any Baha'i Institution > >> was involved in a murder plot? > > > >As has been observed on numerous occasions, SEVERAL Bahais, > >independent of one another, feared, at the time of Dr. Daniel Jordan's > >murder in the early 80's, that the Bahai administration or someone > >closely associated with it, perhaps one of the Iranian Bahais who > >actually control it from behind the scenes, was responsible for > >his assassination style murder. News reports of the time stated the > >manner in which he died suggested a professionally trained killer.... > > > >A number of messages on Jordan's murder may be found on my > >website. > > > >All of the newsgroups in this header are relevant to this topic. > > > >-- > >Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > >https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Peace, > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> BTW - I have deleted all other NGs from my question because we should try > >to > >> keep to this Groups charter which states: > >> > >> "Cross-posting to irrelevant groups is also discouraged, and readers > >> are encouraged to redirect follow-ups to reduce excessive > >> cross-posting." > >> > >> Patrick Henry wrote in message ... > >> > >> >There's plenty of evidence for support of several Bahais who > >> >independently suspected the uhj or members of its regime were > >> >behind Dr. Daniel Jordan's murder in New York in the early 80's. > >> > >> >-- > >> >Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" > >> >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > >> >https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 8:16 AM Subject: Re: Bahai Threatens MURDER - (Was Re: Nouri Sentenced To 5 Years In Prison) What you have is more than a decade of the uhj tyrannizing TENS of THOUSANDS of people, without exaggeration, driving many of them out of the Bahai faith for ideological reasons, or into silence, as is documented on my website. Has the uhj ever cared about the innocent lives it has ruined? Has it ever publicly apologized and attempted to correct its "mistakes"? Has it ever cared about its circumscribing the consciences of its members in the West, with its Iranian distortions of Baha'u'llah's Teachings? Have any of the fundamentalist Bahai apologists on alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai now for years? I append the titles from my webpage of the many incidents of injustice always ignored and excused by the uhj and its literal-minded apologists. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ------- Newcomers might want to start here: The Bahai Technique Essential Reading soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations Documenting Censorship alt.religion.bahai & talk.religion.bahai FAQ(Frequently Asked Questions) Bahais on AOL Late 1998 & early 1999 Bahai Attacks I & II Fall & Spring 1999 Bahai Threats of Lawsuits During Spring 1999 Discussion Agenda for Talk.Religion.Bahai (Topics Bahais never discuss) To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Juan Cole surveys the major incidents of Bahai censorship: "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997" "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Baha'i Scriptures" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Assorted Controversial Documents "A Modest Proposal" 1987 David Langness "The Service of Women" 1988 The Majnun Post 2/7/96 John Walbridge The Pickering Tape 4/96 "Crisis of Faith" 5/15/96 Steven Scholl Letter: Stephen Birkland, Continental Board of Counsellors 7/16/96 "Baha'i Leaders Vexed by On-Line Critics" Winter 1997 Stephen Scholl re the suppression of Dialogue Magazine 1997 Mark Towfiq's NO Vote Campaign on BCCA mailing lists 3/12/97 Michael McKenny - uhj throws him out of the Bahai faith 7/97 Susan Maneck's NO Vote Campaign on AOL 12/7/98 Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - NSA warns Australian Bahais 11/4/97 Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - his response to Bahai NSA Surveillance 9/7/99 My case - a letter to my friends Terry Culhane 7/28/99 Juan Cole, Dismissal of NSA Member Judge James F. Nelson... April, 1999 Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" Letter of Resignation - Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Universal House of Justice From the UHJ: 14 October 1997 From the UHJ: 19 December 1997 To the UHJ: December 21, 1997 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Newspaper Articles/Releases "Critics chafe at Baha'i conservatism" IRA RIFKIN c.1997 Religion News Service "Such Freedoms": New York Times, January 1998 NSA Media Release 12/6/1998 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Talk.Religion.Bahai passed 218: 63 1st RFD: Talk.Religion.Bahai Jan 17 1997 1st RESULT: Talk.Religion.Bahai Mar 27 1997 2nd RFD: Talk.Religion.Bahai Jan 12, 1998 2nd RESULT: Talk.Religion.Bahai Feb 22, 1998 3rd RFD: Talk.Religion.Bahai Sept 28, 1998 3rd RESULT: Talk.Religion.Bahai Jan 10, 1999 Annotated NO Voters List for the 2nd Interest Poll Annotated NO Voters List for the 3rd Interest Poll wrote in message news:82nm9g$imb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > David and Jennifer > > There is no evidence that has ever been offered. No substantive facts > have ever been revealed. No names publicized. No statements produced. > No testimony given. What do you have left after you substract all these? > > Is he aware of the incredible pain this campaign may cause to the > family and friends of that beautiful and much loved man? > > Is he cognizent of the possibly severe negative consequences to Baha'i > men, women and children this tirade may produce within Iran and other > countries where the Baha'i Faith is circumscribed? > > These are possibly better questions to ask, David, but perhaps you > might just let it drop. > > Robert A. Little > > In article , > "David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila" wrote: > > I am not familiar with the name or the case. This is a very strong > > accusation. What direct evidence do you have that any Baha'i > Institution > > was involved in a murder plot? > > > > Peace, > > > > Dave > > > > BTW - I have deleted all other NGs from my question because we should > try to > > keep to this Groups charter which states: > > > > "Cross-posting to irrelevant groups is also discouraged, and readers > > are encouraged to redirect follow-ups to reduce excessive > > cross-posting." > > > > Patrick Henry wrote in message ... > > > > >There's plenty of evidence for support of several Bahais who > > >independently suspected the uhj or members of its regime were > > >behind Dr. Daniel Jordan's murder in New York in the early 80's. > > > > >-- > > >Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > >https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 1:38 PM Subject: Re: Something for you to think about. Ron House wrote in message news:384FAEC3.767A394C@usq.edu.au...> > Now don't try playing the bitterness card. I'm not bitter, I'm angry - > and not against women, but against the pernicious hypocrites such as > Foucault and Derrida, and a dozen others, who have perverted the left > from a positive (if not always wise) movement for social improvement > into a relativist movement for social re-engineering. Inasmuch as > feminism plays its starring role in that evil, I don't like it. But the > entire edifice of postmodernism, deconstructionism, and their > white-anting of the humanities goes far beyond just the feminist menace. > The right may also have its evils, but we can see them and fight them; > the faults of the left are disguised by layer upon layer of lies, > distortions, and dishonest scholarship. It's the left you should fear All of which, Ron, I heartily agree with. I thought you had a scientific background? All the more credit to you here if that's the case. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 1:42 PM Subject: Re: Bahai Threatens MURDER - (Was Re: Nouri Sentenced To 5 Years In Prison) Sam Ghandchi wrote in message news:UFQ34.15224$417.685074@typ12.nn.bcandid.com... > > Iranians are more tired of cultish and religious fundamentalism, > of all colors, than anybody else I can think of. Alas, not true of Iranian Bahais.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 1:49 PM Subject: Re: Bahai Threatens MURDER - (Was Re: Nouri Sentenced To 5 Years In Prison) Roger Reini wrote in message news:qp9POPe+AZyOQwvTO40AXWAjXk3A@4ax.com... > > Now that he's come back and repeating the monstrous allegations about > a murder plot (which I won't dignify with a response) How about the "monstrous" distortions by the uhj of Abdul-Baha's positive views of free speech and conscience? It's evident that your pretense of not responding is intended to denigrate my opinion that a uhj capable of mistreating people the way the present one has and does most likely is entirely capable of murder and other reprehensible acts. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 1:52 PM Subject: A Bahai approach too <> The guy on the right reminds of Bahais I've known.... +corvus+ wrote in message news:383DF0CE.C711E4E0@concentric.net... Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:glaysher@mi-mls.com] Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:26 AM To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Message to uhj 12-10-99 Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights of Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. Anything I have ever said is a matter of my God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed would never be violated by their religion. I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; indeed, the highest achievement of my Bahai life, defending Baha'u'llah's Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed his Revelation. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila wrote in message news:3W_34.1724$jC1.177695@newshog.newsread.com... > He has his ID card on his website. When asked he says he is a registered > Baha'i. So I decided to see if I could verify that he is what he claims to > be. > > It was a simple check on status to see if his claim was fact. I don't know > anything other than they could not confirm his membership. I went no > further because I really don't want to know more than that. > > Peace, > > Dave > > > Carol wrote in message <82p30q$hd7$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > >In article <82p06t$f0o$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > >> Out of curiostiy I decided to check on Fred Glaysher's status in the > >> Baha'i Community and his membership could not be confirmed. > >> > >> I was under the assumption that he is a member of the US Baha'i > >> Community. > >> > >> Fred? > >> > >> Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > >> Before you buy. > >> > > > >He's a member of an alternative Baha'i community. One of those > >"splinter groups". So why are you checking up on his status? > > > > > >-- > >Best regards, > > > >Carol Ann > >"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo > > > > > >Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > >Before you buy. > > ---------- From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations[SMTP:ieco@bwc.org] Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:34 AM Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message regarding: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 7:57 AM Subject: Re: Mormon America, Baha'i Parallels Thanks, Paul, for posting these excerpts. They certainly do parallel the Bahai faith I've known and the picture that emerges from all the incidents of the last decade or more, not to mention current events.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm K. Paul Johnson wrote in message news:38501ee1.0@vlinsvr... > Continuing--- > > "the hierarchy's chief theological watchdog...warned [of] three > `dangers'...the gay and lesbian movement, the feminist movement, > and `the ever-present challenge from the so-called scholars or > intellectuals.'"p. 364 > > "Apostle...stated that there is no concept of a `loyal > opposition' to be found in the church...`There is a certain > arrogance in thinking that any of us may be more spiritually > intelligent, more learned, or more righteous than the Councils > called to preside over us.'"p. 369 > > "But at the end of the twentieth century there is a palpable > worry and alienation among some of Mormondom's best and brightest > who remain loyal church members in good standing...For those in > charge of any human institution, open debate can be irksome. In > a religious institution, especially, uncertainty about belief can > bring serious spiritual consequences. But there is always a high > price to be paid when certain questions are not to be asked, when > certain questioners are not to be welcomed, and when certain > leaders are not to be questioned."p. 371 > > "That predicament has conditioned the leadership's policies ever > since: centralized control, continuing secrecy, regimentation, > `correlation,' obedience, suspicion towards intellectuals, > suppression of open discussion, file-keeping on members for > disciplinary use, sporadic purges of malcontents, church > education as indoctrination, the proselytizing push, and > reemphasis on religious uniqueness...Mormonism still desires > mainstream status, but largely in order to foster good public > relations and proselytism, and in certain cases, alliance with > other conservative religious groups to achieve political > influence in selected issues." p. 383 ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:08 AM Subject: Re: Something for you to think about. Smaneck wrote in message >people are using the radical fringe of feminism as indicative of the whole. For those perhaps unfamiliar with it, let me mention Christina Hoff Sommers' Who Stole Femininism? How Women Have Betrayed Women, as an insightful critique of the fringe and exemplary of the more balanced, moderate voices and scholarship. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:glaysher@mi-mls.com] Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:26 AM To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Message to uhj 12-10-99 Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights of Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. Anything I have ever said is a matter of my God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed would never be violated by their religion. I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; indeed, the highest achievement of my Bahai life, defending Baha'u'llah's Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed his Revelation. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila wrote in message news:3W_34.1724$jC1.177695@newshog.newsread.com... > He has his ID card on his website. When asked he says he is a registered > Baha'i. So I decided to see if I could verify that he is what he claims to > be. > > It was a simple check on status to see if his claim was fact. I don't know > anything other than they could not confirm his membership. I went no > further because I really don't want to know more than that. > > Peace, > > Dave > > > Carol wrote in message <82p30q$hd7$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > >In article <82p06t$f0o$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > >> Out of curiostiy I decided to check on Fred Glaysher's status in the > >> Baha'i Community and his membership could not be confirmed. > >> > >> I was under the assumption that he is a member of the US Baha'i > >> Community. > >> > >> Fred? > >> > >> Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > >> Before you buy. > >> > > > >He's a member of an alternative Baha'i community. One of those > >"splinter groups". So why are you checking up on his status? > > > > > >-- > >Best regards, > > > >Carol Ann > >"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo > > > > > >Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > >Before you buy. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights of Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed would never be violated in their religion. I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; indeed, the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending Baha'u'llah's Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his Revelation. -- Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila wrote in message news:3W_34.1724$jC1.177695@newshog.newsread.com... > He has his ID card on his website. When asked he says he is a registered > Baha'i. So I decided to see if I could verify that he is what he claims to > be. > > It was a simple check on status to see if his claim was fact. I don't know > anything other than they could not confirm his membership. I went no > further because I really don't want to know more than that. > > Peace, > > Dave > > > Carol wrote in message <82p30q$hd7$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > >In article <82p06t$f0o$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > >> Out of curiostiy I decided to check on Fred Glaysher's status in the > >> Baha'i Community and his membership could not be confirmed. > >> > >> I was under the assumption that he is a member of the US Baha'i > >> Community. > >> > >> Fred? > >> > >> Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > >> Before you buy. > >> > > > >He's a member of an alternative Baha'i community. One of those > >"splinter groups". So why are you checking up on his status? > > > > > >-- > >Best regards, > > > >Carol Ann > >"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo > > > > > >Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > >Before you buy. > > ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:36 AM To: UHJ Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights of Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed would never be violated in their religion. I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; indeed, the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending Baha'u'llah's Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his Revelation. -- Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila wrote in message news:3W_34.1724$jC1.177695@newshog.newsread.com... > He has his ID card on his website. When asked he says he is a registered > Baha'i. So I decided to see if I could verify that he is what he claims to > be. > > It was a simple check on status to see if his claim was fact. I don't know > anything other than they could not confirm his membership. I went no > further because I really don't want to know more than that. > > Peace, > > Dave > > > Carol wrote in message <82p30q$hd7$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > >In article <82p06t$f0o$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > >> Out of curiostiy I decided to check on Fred Glaysher's status in the > >> Baha'i Community and his membership could not be confirmed. > >> > >> I was under the assumption that he is a member of the US Baha'i > >> Community. > >> > >> Fred? > >> > >> Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > >> Before you buy. > >> > > > >He's a member of an alternative Baha'i community. One of those > >"splinter groups". So why are you checking up on his status? > > > > > >-- > >Best regards, > > > >Carol Ann > >"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo > > > > > >Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > >Before you buy. > > ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:38 AM To: talisman Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights of Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed would never be violated in their religion. I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; indeed, the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending Baha'u'llah's Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his Revelation. -- Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila wrote in message news:3W_34.1724$jC1.177695@newshog.newsread.com... > He has his ID card on his website. When asked he says he is a registered > Baha'i. So I decided to see if I could verify that he is what he claims to > be. > > It was a simple check on status to see if his claim was fact. I don't know > anything other than they could not confirm his membership. I went no > further because I really don't want to know more than that. > > Peace, > > Dave > > > Carol wrote in message <82p30q$hd7$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > >In article <82p06t$f0o$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > >> Out of curiostiy I decided to check on Fred Glaysher's status in the > >> Baha'i Community and his membership could not be confirmed. > >> > >> I was under the assumption that he is a member of the US Baha'i > >> Community. > >> > >> Fred? > >> > >> Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > >> Before you buy. > >> > > > >He's a member of an alternative Baha'i community. One of those > >"splinter groups". So why are you checking up on his status? > > > > > >-- > >Best regards, > > > >Carol Ann > >"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo > > > > > >Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > >Before you buy. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:43 AM Subject: Re: Bahai Threatens MURDER - (Was Re: Nouri Sentenced To 5 Years In Prison) You both are right. My apologies to non-Bahai Iranians. My comments were perhaps too broad and clouded by my experience with numerous Iranian Bahais. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message regarding: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. From ieco@quark.bwc.org Fri Dec 10 05:45:57 1999 Received: from [192.115.145.253] by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com(3.2) with ESMTP id MHotMailBA1A4CCD000DD82197A3C07391FD0A280; Fri Dec 10 05:36:17 1999 Received: from wagner.bwc.org by quark.bwc.org with SMTP id AA04603 (5.67b-Emil1.1/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:34:32 +0200 Received: from coral.bwc.org (coral [10.1.0.21]) by wagner.bwc.org (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA03395 for <>; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:34:31 +0200 (IST) Received: by coral.bwc.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA07462; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:34:31 +0200 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:34:31 +0200 From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations Message-Id: <199912101334.PAA07462@coral.bwc.org> Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... Apparently-To: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:glaysher@mi-mls.com] Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 9:19 AM To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Repost - uhj 12-10-99 Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights of Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed would never be violated in their religion. I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; indeed, the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending Baha'u'llah's Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his Revelation. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila wrote in message news:3W_34.1724$jC1.177695@newshog.newsread.com... > He has his ID card on his website. When asked he says he is a registered > Baha'i. So I decided to see if I could verify that he is what he claims to > be. > > It was a simple check on status to see if his claim was fact. I don't know > anything other than they could not confirm his membership. I went no > further because I really don't want to know more than that. > > Peace, > > Dave > > > Carol wrote in message <82p30q$hd7$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > >In article <82p06t$f0o$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > >> Out of curiostiy I decided to check on Fred Glaysher's status in the > >> Baha'i Community and his membership could not be confirmed. > >> > >> I was under the assumption that he is a member of the US Baha'i > >> Community. > >> > >> Fred? > >> > >> Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > >> Before you buy. > >> > > > >He's a member of an alternative Baha'i community. One of those > >"splinter groups". So why are you checking up on his status? > > > > > >-- > >Best regards, > > > >Carol Ann > >"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo > > > > > >Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > >Before you buy. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 8:02 AM Subject: Bahai - Re: Something for you to think about. Ron House wrote in message news:3852397F.4C3F707F@usq.edu.au... > > My first degree is physics, the second maths, and I teach computer > science. The world's a funny place. I would then think you'd be intelligent enough not to intimate murdering people: >Add to that the fact that if they were going > to murder people, they'd start with more itrritating targets than the > wonderful Daniel Jordan. History has known darker deeds of deceit and treachery.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 8:25 AM Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed Abdul-Baha: "Baha'u'llah taught that an equal standard of human rights must be recognized and adopted." The Promulgation of Universal Peace, 182. "Under the laws which are to govern the world, the socialists may justly demand human rights but without resort to force and violence." The Promulgation of Universal Peace, 238. (Socialists may, Bahais may not....) Professor Juan Cole, History Department, The University of Michigan, "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Baha'i Scriptures": https://h-net2.msu.edu/~bahai/bhpapers/vol3/rights.htm See also Cole's article on censorship in the Bahai faith from 1963 to 1997: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:82rn17$e7r$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article , > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights > of > > Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the > > Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in > > protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, > > former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, > > and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my > > website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... > > Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. > > > > It is not a human right to belong to a private organization. It is a > human right to choose your personal faith and express it as you would > like to. But when you are a voluntary member of a religious body and > you break the laws of that body you have no right to remain a member, > and that religious group has every right to remove your membership. > > There is no human right to demand change within a private organization > and have that change happen. There are means and procedures to bring > about change in those areas that change is possible. In the Baha'i > Faith unity of the community is paramount but subservient to obeying > all of the laws of God and the provisions of the Covenant and the chain > of authority that has been generated by it. If you choose not to > follow those laws and provisions and that authority you may leave - no > one is making you stay. And if you stay and do not use proper channels > and methods for creating change you have no right to immunity from > administative sanction. > > I have no right as a human being to choose to join the Jesuit Order and > preach that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ and still remain a > member. I have no right to be a Muslim and claim that Baha'u'llah is a > Messenger of God and still remain a member. I have no right to join an > Ultra Orthodox Jewish community and expect to break the Sabbath. All > of those organizations have the absolute right to remove me from their > group. > > If any Baha'i want to create change in a private organization you may > do so through the proper cahannels. But don't expect it to happen if > the administration of that organization does not accept it and they can > point to the place in their charter that contradicts your view. > > For Baha'is (by that I mean those registered Baha'is who value unity > and obedience to the Will of God over their personal desires) there are > methods in place to propose change in our community. We have every > right to petition the administration at all levels. We have the right > to voice our opinion freely. If the administration decision goes > against our wishes then we are left with the Divine call to obey them. > If we persist and go outside the boundaries of propriety and disturb > the unity of the Faith we must expect to suffer the consequences of > those actions. > > Change in a large organization is slow. Patience is the key. But we > have no human right to remain a member when we end up breaking the laws > of the Faith. And if someone leaves voluntarily how is it even > possible that their rights have been violated? > > Peace, > > Dave > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 8:31 AM Subject: Re: Lost SRB posts An old soc.religion.bahai fanatic trick.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Chris Manvell wrote in message news:38rn1MAdFiU4EAMe@breacais.demon.co.uk... > Dear Friends, > > Has anyone on either of these fora had problems posting to SRB? I've > sent several messages over the last couple of months which have neither > been posted, nor rejected, nor acknowledged. I have used all three > routes, posting to bahai-faith@bcca.org, moderators@uu.net (or whatever) > and soc.religion.bahai but none seem to have got through. All my other > e-mails and news posts seem to get through OK, so I assume that the > problem lies with the BCCA. Anyone any ideas? > > All the best, > > Chris. > > I just thought, Maybe the posts are getting through but the responses, > on or off SRB, are not getting back to me... > -- > Chris Manvell Tel.:+44(0)1471-822 317 > Breacais Iosal, Isle of Skye, Scotland. Fax.:+44(0)870-056 8081 > Personal Web site: > Association for Baha'i Studies (English-Speaking Europe): > and > Sgriobtiurean Creidimh nam Baha-i (with English Translations) > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 8:37 AM Subject: Bahai - Re: Who killed Dan Jordan? According to police reports in the newspapers of time, Jordan was found not in a dumpster but on a pile of trash covered by his trench coat. You're entitled to your opinion; I to mine. I believe a uhj that operates the way this one does capable of doing anything, including murder. At the time of Jordan's assassination, the idea occurred to several other Bahais.... Again, a fact that speaks volumes about the tenor of Bahai "community" life. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:82s53b$nom$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > WARNING: This post is a little graphic in certain details. > > I said I wouldn't post anymore but given how this topic has come up > again with full force, I think a few things should be set straight. > Firstly, it is simply an outlandish proposition to hold that Dan Jordan > was murdered by the Baha'is. As much as the Baha'i administration > behaves badly, murder is not one thing they engage in. > IMO, the likely assassins/suspect(s) of Dan Jordan fall under two > possibilities: 1) radical Islamists in North America tied to the > Khomeinist line (khatt-e imam) of the revolutionary students in Iran (it > is after all the early 80s we're talking about) targetting a prominent > American Baha'i (which apparently some group tied to Khomeini had said > as early as 1980 they would target a prominent Baha'i) and 2) a > homosexual rendezevous with a lover or male prostitute that went > horribly wrong. The first possibility was explored in depth and then > some by the investigators but no substantive evidence (other than the > execution style of the murder) turned up. No one took responsibility, > which is usually what happens in politically motivated assassinations. > Yet my personal conviction, failing further evidence coming to light, is > that this is precisely what happened, that Dan Jordan was in fact killed > by militant Islamic fundamentalists tied to Iran. > The second theory has it that Dan Jordan was gay (which apparently > many knew about) and that on his return to NYC from a business trip he > had had some kind of encounter with either an 1) estranged lover or 2) > had solicited the services of a male prostitute who had then murdered > him. To the FBI as well as the NYC/LongIsland/Port Authority detectives > who investigated the case this was the strongest (albeit > strangest) scenario because Jordan was found washed and naked and > dumped in a dumpster with his throat slit in Colombian necktie fashion. > Yet no suspects ever turned up. > The murder of Dan Jordan is simply an unsolved mystery and as long > as no further evidence comes to light, will remain so indefinitely. > However, there is simply no indication or evidence whatsoever that > Baha'i administrators would kill one of their own in such terrible > fashion. It's simply not done. And besides if they had, the trail would > have obviously led back to them by now (the administration could fool > the community about such a thing for awhile but not the combined forces > of the FBI, NYC/Port Authority investigators and the best forensics > experts at the time). Something would have led back to them, and for > over eighteen years now nothing has. So this allegation is simply > unfounded, false and unfair. However authoritarian, close > minded and sometimes dishonest the Baha'i administration can be over > matters of scripture, doctrine, interpretation and belief, they have not > physically murdered anyone, especially Dan Jordan. > > Regards, > Nima > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 8:45 AM Subject: Bahai - Re: Lost SRB posts SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI: Robert J. Pease, December 5, 1998: "I support your efforts to expose SRB as a fundamentalist group." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb84.htm Timothy Mulligan: "(Sigh) Fred, I'm beginning to think you're right about those SRB moderators." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb59.htm RobertNik: "these guys are pompous arseholes IMHO." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb54.htm Bruce Burrill: "What are Baha'i afraid of?" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb60.htm Zuteflute: "Frankly I could not see anything in the letter I wrote which would prompt someone to ask whether or not I am a Baha'i." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb50.htm YU ZIR: "But as an outsider, I can perhaps see the point Fred Glaysher is making, and which point none of SRB's defenders seem to address." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb46.htm Matthew Cromer: "The current moderators regulate the contents--posting articles which they agree with...." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb47.htm Kavosh Soltani, December 9, 1998: "So many Bahais on these forums have shown to be ready to forget logic and reason, ignore clear evidence and Word of God, and come up with exactly the same line of tired and inaccurate excuses and arguments to justify their position, that it can not be a simple coincidence." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb77.htm Shakti3, December 4, 1998: "Sorry to hear that you've been surpressed on srb. Your comments were alway very "right on." Altho it does not surprise me one bit, seeing the way these newsgroups operate." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Ex7.htm Ron House: "I think the following is a clear case of malicious rejection of an article by the worst of the moderators of soc.religion.bahai." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb53.htm Harold Shinsato: "It seems like there is an oppression over the Baha'i Faith." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb33.htm Steve Tomljenovic, December 3, 1998: "The moderators are a bit overzealous at times. Since all the controversy started, it has gotten worse." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb79.htm Laeterna: "To say I was flabberghasted at this type of "moderating" was putting it mildly indeed." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/censored2.htm Guy Macon" "Please explain which portion of the charter the following post violates." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/censored1.htm Robin Peters: "I think you're to be commended for your persistence in the face of consistent censorship." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb43.htm jgoldberg: "I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. " https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb57.htm Ruletherod, November 17, 1998: "Too much damage has already been done in the name and to the name of Baha'u'llah by right-wing administrative bullies, linear-thinking apologists, and doctrinaire-fundamentalists. You can't just blame it all on the critics." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb76.htm Many other similar messages may be found on my web site under soc.religion.bahai censorship. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 9:14 AM Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed My opinion of fellow Bahais like you is well known. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:82rdgo$735$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > (sorry if this is a repeat post MyDeja is acting funny) > > I never assume that anyone is a Covenant Breaker, and I do not look up > the membership of everyone on the list. > > Fred made a claim that he is a registered member of the Baha'i > community. To lend this claim creedence he scanned his membership card > and posted it on his website. > > He is a controversial figure and makes many claims. I sought to verify > the truth of his claim to membership in the US Baha'i Community. That > membership could not be confirmed. > > This is not a value judgement - just a fact. My opinion of Fred will > remain private. I make no accusations or threats. I merely researched > one of his claims and it turns out to be false. > > Peace, > > Dave > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:glaysher@mi-mls.com] Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 9:19 AM To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Repost - uhj 12-10-99 Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights of Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed would never be violated in their religion. I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; indeed, the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending Baha'u'llah's Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his Revelation. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila wrote in message news:3W_34.1724$jC1.177695@newshog.newsread.com... > He has his ID card on his website. When asked he says he is a registered > Baha'i. So I decided to see if I could verify that he is what he claims to > be. > > It was a simple check on status to see if his claim was fact. I don't know > anything other than they could not confirm his membership. I went no > further because I really don't want to know more than that. > > Peace, > > Dave > > > Carol wrote in message <82p30q$hd7$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > >In article <82p06t$f0o$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > >> Out of curiostiy I decided to check on Fred Glaysher's status in the > >> Baha'i Community and his membership could not be confirmed. > >> > >> I was under the assumption that he is a member of the US Baha'i > >> Community. > >> > >> Fred? > >> > >> Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > >> Before you buy. > >> > > > >He's a member of an alternative Baha'i community. One of those > >"splinter groups". So why are you checking up on his status? > > > > > >-- > >Best regards, > > > >Carol Ann > >"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo > > > > > >Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > >Before you buy. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, December 12, 1999 8:46 AM Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed macleod wrote in message news:944938308.21979.0.nnrp-12.c2de8324@news.demon.co.uk... > This subject seems to me of great importance to the Faith especially if we > achieve the great increase in membership we are striving for. And Fred, > who is utterly straightforward in his opposition to the current > leadership, is an interesting test case. Your statement is inaccurate. I am not in "opposition to the current leadership"; merely, its distorted interpretation of the Writings regarding free speech and conscience, both of which Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha held in high esteem. Otherwise, I recognize the uhj as the legitimate institution of the Bahai faith and so on.... though this group of nine men is quite fundamentalist in mentality. > The alternative is surely to stick to the idea that all who believe in > Baha'u'llah are welcome in the Faith and find ways to make them feel > welcome even if we disagree with them totally. That would require tolerance, exactly what the intolerant nine lack and thereby inculcate into their underlings who think of themselves as part of a "we," disdaining others.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, December 12, 1999 8:53 AM Subject: Iranian Court Rejects Bail for Leading Reformist Iranian Court Rejects Bail for Leading Reformist ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Filed at 7:52 a.m. ET By Reuters TEHRAN (Reuters) - A hard-line Iranian court has refused to free on bail leading reformist cleric Abdollah Nouri who is in jail for dissent, jeopardizing his hopes to run for parliament, his lawyer said in remarks published on Sunday. Mohsen Rohami told newspapers that the prosecutor of the Special Court for Clergy had opposed a motion to release Nouri to allow him to sign up for February's parliament polls. Nouri had been tipped to lead the reformers in the polls, with an eye to becoming parliamentary speaker in the event of their victory over conservatives. But those plans were undermined by Nouri's conviction by the court last month on charges of political and religious dissent. The court jailed him for five years and banned his influential daily, Khordad. The daily reappeared on Saturday as Fath (Victory), using more liberal licensing rules introduced by moderate President Mohammad Khatami, who took office in 1997. Nouri, a mid-ranking Shi'ite Muslim cleric, has denounced the court as illegal and so far refused to file an appeal. A key ally of Khatami, Nouri was the top vote-winner in elections to the Tehran city council earlier this year. Nouri transformed his trial into a forum for discussion of some of the most sensitive issues in the Islamic republic, including the legal limits of the supreme clerical leader's powers and possible restoration of ties to the United States. In broader terms, he helped force into the open the deep divide inside the religious and political establishment over freedom of thought and expression within the Islamic system. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, December 12, 1999 9:00 AM Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed macleod wrote in message news:944947282.15714.0.nnrp-03.c2de8324@news.demon.co.uk... > > It still leaves me the uneasy feeling. What advice would we give to > someone who accepts Baha'u'llah, regards the UHJ as the legitimate leaders > of our Faith but either at the time of joining or later comes to the view > that wholehearted obedience and support is not necessary? We disagree with > them. OK. Perhaps we reason with them. OK. But do we still welcome them > in the Faith or do we suggest they leave? What has been done in the Bahai for well over a decade now is documented on my website for many, many, many people.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 6:58 AM Subject: Re: Bahai - Re: Who killed Dan Jordan? Sam Ghandchi wrote in message news:%xF44.726$du4.30920@news1.frmt1.sfba.home.com... > > Look, the Baha'i Faith is not even in power and there is so > much fear among its adherents, or former adherents. This is > not out of respect, that is a lie. This is obviously because > of fear. This is like Leninism and Stalinism or even worse. You've got it. There's fear for very good reasons.... > Actually seeing this reality of fear among Iranian Baha'is and > former Baha'is, even in a West, with all its freedoms, is amazing. > I think it has nothing to do with Baha'i persecution in Iran, > when even former Baha'is are so reserved to criticize these > realities and they walk on ice. This is not much different from > EST or Scientology and other similar cults. Historically, cultures of fear and tyranny produce all kinds of crime, including murder.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 7:17 AM Subject: Re: Bahai - Re: Who killed Dan Jordan? wrote in message news:831e39$4va$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Sam wrote: > >or Patrick's claim that Baha'i uhj is responsible, > > there is a problem here, beyond this case. > Nima wrote: > I agree. Yet Fred/Patrick's claim is simply out on left field. He is > making a bogus claim (bordering on libellous) without one shred of > evidence. This loses sight of what precisely I've said and continue to maintain: 1) A religion that operates the way this uhj does is one capable of committing murder. It would be naive to think otherwise. 2) The atmosphere of fear explains why several Bahais unknown to each other and widely spread out over not only the North American continent but indeed the world suspected the uhj or someone associated with its administration was responsible for Jordan's murder. I'll say it another way: By having had the experience of observing Bahai life from the inside, feast, the administration, etc., the same irrepressible possibility surfaced independently in a number of minds capable of thinking and adding 2 + 2 for themselves. I've never claimed that I have any or new evidence regarding Jordan's murder. If I did I'd go immediately to the police and urge anyone who does to do so. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 7:24 AM Subject: Re: Bahai - Re: Who killed Dan Jordan? Sohyle wrote in message news:831s8n$eid$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > By reading the posts of most rabid Bahais, I get the impression that > they actually sit on the same side of the fence with the bloody mullahs > when it comes to attacking liberties, democracy, human rights, and they > could very well become the mullahs of the future in western society, if > god forbid, they CAPTURE POWER in their own hands one day. I believe you're quite right about the similarity of fundamentalist Bahais with the mullahs. However, I don't believe that that development is in line with the Writings of Baha'u'llah but rather a particular historical distortion of his religion. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 7:29 AM Subject: Re: Bahai - Re: Who killed Dan Jordan? Thanks for saying all this so well. It encapsulates quite well my own point of view and why I've put together my wesite during the last year and a half. By the way, Cole's book is available easily on Amazon.com. There's a convenient link to it on my website. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:832436$jgr$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Dear Sohyle, > > I really could not have put it better myself. Ditto! > The point is however that the current practice(s) within the Baha'i > community and administration is not reflective by any stretch of the > imagination of the sort of liberal democratic thinking of the Baha'i > founders. There is so much in the writings of Baha'u'llah and his son, > `Abdu'l-Baha, praising and extolling parliamentary democracy, respect > for human rights and advocacy of civil liberties/respect of individual > conscience, equality of the sexes, etc, that the current cultish and > authoritarian triumphalism (the rabidness you pointed out) of the Baha'i > community and administration is indeed a complete aberration of > everything these founding figures represented and stood for. For > instance, in the late 1870s, `Abdu'l-Baha, wrote an important treatise > advocating democracy, parliamentary governance and limits on the power > of the Shah and court, industrialization and economic progress, and > judicial reform in Iran that managed to influence an entire generation > and the soon-to-be constitutionalist movement (of course, such official > historians of the Constitutional revolution such as Malekiyat for > their own motives fail to acknowledge this): i.e. Resaleh-ye Asrar-e > Madaniyyeh/Secret of Divine Civilization. Malkum Khan, Taqizadeh, Mirza > Hasan Shirazi (the marja' taqlid of the time in Iraq whose fatwa > unleashed the revolt against the Shah's tobacco concession in 1892 and > who was a secret Baha'i himself) and even Seyyed Jamaleddin > Asadabadi-Afghani and numerous others had read this work and > acknowledged being influenced by its line of reasoning. > Of course, the official Baha'i line these days seeks to minimize, if > not deny outright, the democratic reform and communitarian liberal > aspects of the early Baha'i religion. However, one particular academic > monograph recently highlights all of this and provides comprehensive > analysis of the liberal and progressive democratic features of the early > Baha'i religion - a book I would highly recommend to anyone interested > in such things: i.e. Juan R.I. Cole's _Modernity and the Millenium: The > Genesis of the Baha'i faith in the Nineteenth Century Middle East_ > Columbia (1998). Check it out. This book, imv, provides valuable > evidence of just how much the official Baha'i line has lost touch with > its democratic roots and just how much many rank-and-file Baha'is don't > know about where their founders were really coming from on the reform > front. > > cheers, > Nima > > > > > In article <831s8n$eid$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Sohyle wrote: > > I am very much in agreement about your assessment of some of the > > practitioners of the Bahai Faith. > > > > During the birthing process of soc.religion.bahai, I had the chance to > > closely observe the behaviour and actions of certain Bahai defenders, > > and their attitude towards human rights, freedom of discussion, and > > liberties in general. > > > > On numerous occasions, these rabid Bahais especially the non-Iranian > > ones, rightfully denounced the murderous regime of the Islamic > Republic > > as limiting religuous freedoms and attacked the regime for persecuting > > Bahais in the Islamic Republic. But it appears that their tears are > > strictly reserved for their own cult-mates, obviously because of their > > own group-interest. > > > > Never have I observed rabid Bahais denounce the bloody mullahs for > what > > they are doing to Iranian activists, and the gross violation of human > > rights in the Islamic Republic, which is in most ways worse than what > > the Bahais have endured. > > > > Summary execution of 100,000 dissenting Iranians by the mullahs in > 1981 > > and 1989, and the cabal killing of Iranian intellectuals in 1998, and > > stoning of Iranians accused of sex offenses - does not rate anywhere > > close to their objection to limiting Bahais from practicing their > faith. > > > > By reading the posts of most rabid Bahais, I get the impression that > > they actually sit on the same side of the fence with the bloody > mullahs > > when it comes to attacking liberties, democracy, human rights, and > they > > could very well become the mullahs of the future in western society, > if > > god forbid, they CAPTURE POWER in their own hands one day. > > > > This is why all religions of all colors are condemned. History has > > shown that religious movements are by and large of the same nature, > > poised to enslave humanity. When the highest authority is not reason > > or democratic institutions, but rather the highest authority is the > > saying (read 'book') of some self-proclaimed prophet, without an ounce > > of proper evidence backing up their "divine" rantings, and the > shameful > > inability of the believers in such faiths to provide an ounce of > proper > > evidence to back such "devine" rantings, the uninitiated has to be > very > > careful when lending support to such an essentially anti-human school > > of thought. > > > > We should not take for granted the liberties and the democratic > > infrastructure which we have inherited. Millions have died over the > > last 5 centuries fighting religious fascism and political fascism to > > bring us this privilege. Religious ideology is a nefarious disease > > that permeates liberterian society, in the same manner that an > > infection may permeate a living body. Be on guard! > > > > Sohyle > > > > In article <%xF44.726$du4.30920@news1.frmt1.sfba.home.com>, > > "Sam Ghandchi" wrote: > > > > > > > > > wrote in message > > > news:82usgd$fq5$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > .. > > > >perfect sense to me that they killed him, although it also > > demonstrates > > > >what supreme cowards the reactionary fascist regime of the > terrorist > > > >mullocracy are for failing to publicly take responsibility ever > > since. > > > > > > Dear Nima, > > > > > > I do not know about this case and irrespective of whether your > > > claim that Islamic Republic of Iran (IRI) is responsible for > > > this murder; or Patrick's claim that Baha'i uhj is responsible, > > > there is a problem here, beyond this case. > > > > > > I think there has been a lot of discussions on SCI and elsewhere, > > > about violations of human rights by IRI, and I do not think anybody > > > in their right mind can deny that. But I think when the issue is > > > violations of human rights in Baha'i practrices, there is a > > > hush hush, on the justification that Baha'is of Iran are victims of > > > abuses of Islamic Republic of Iran, but this is no justification, to > > > ignore the realities of Baha'i practices. > > > > > > In fact, some Baha'is, who never posted as Baha'is on SCI, > > > and would only post tecchnical question and answers, > > > wrote to me thank you notes, and called me friend and wrote > > > that they wished all non-Bahai's would think me, when I defended > > > the human rights of Baha'is in Iran, but when I criticized their > > > cultish practices, suddenly they would insult me anyway they > > > could, to discourage me. In fact, they would write about > > > political and social writings of other SCiers, as if they > > > were disinterested independent objective authors, but in reality > > > they belonged to the Baha'i Faith. > > > > > > Beside the above, I can tell you that also on SCI, I two > > > of the most intelligent Baha'is, who posted on other topics, > > > and also said they were Baha'i, but one could never have > > > a rational talk with them about Baha'i Faith and worse than > > > that, they were afraid to challenge some other Baha'is, > > > who were as bad as Islamist hezbollAhis. I do not want > > > to say more about what that BahaollAhi finally did with > > > them. I think individuals is not the issue here and it > > > is a waste of time to go into details. The issue is > > > the practices of followers of "Bahai Faith" and human > > > rights. > > > > > > Look, the Baha'i Faith is not even in power and there is so > > > much fear among its adherents, or former adherents. This is > > > not out of respect, that is a lie. This is obviously because > > > of fear. This is like Leninism and Stalinism or even worse. > > > > > > When I asked one of them, he would justify the fanatic, > > > saying that well this Baha'i fanatic guy has had his parents > > > killed by IRI and this is why that guy is such a fanatic, etc. > > > In fact, I also saw Baha'is with different roles on SCI as pure > > > dishonesty. When one does not say s/he is Baha'i, and only > > > discusses technical topics, and suddenly writes as if > > > s/he is an independent-minded professor or a simple > > > contributor writing feedback, who is just reading SCI, > > > and is passing judgement on the authors of different > > > religious and policitcal views, this is what I call dishonesty. > > > > > > I think just condemning the Mollahs and theocracy in Iran > > > is not going to resolve this reality. I think Baha'is live > > > in a very cultish environment, where they feel like traitors, > > > if they do not want to be religious, or if they do not want to > > > have anything to do with this religion, or any other religion > > > for that matter. > > > > > > Actually seeing this reality of fear among Iranian Baha'is and > > > former Baha'is, even in a West, with all its freedoms, is amazing. > > > I think it has nothing to do with Baha'i persecution in Iran, > > > when even former Baha'is are so reserved to criticize these > > > realities and they walk on ice. This is not much different from > > > EST or Scientology and other similar cults. I think > > > Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman's analysis of cults well > > > applies to Baha'i Faith. Please see my article on Cults: > > > > > > https://www.egroups.com/group/iranscope/296.html? > > > > > > I think just like the final critic of Communism, that came from > > > within, the critic of Bahai Faith from within is needed, and going > > > beyond it, rather than staying entangled in this ideology, is long > > > overdue. > > > > > > Regards, > > > - Sam > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 7:53 AM Subject: Re: loyal opposition in Baha'i Juan, Thank you for stating all of this so clearly. By coincidence, it sums up quite well much of what I think myself. Anything I have ever said has been to my mind a matter of "loyal opposition," though I don't conceive of it as opposition at all to Baha'u'llah and His Revelation. Indeed, to me, it is DEFENSE of his Word from neglect and distortion. My deepest desire is to see the masses enter His Religion, which they will, if the uhj can straighten itself out and let them.... -- Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Juan Cole wrote in message news:8324ti$k4u$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > We were having a discussion of the issue of "loyal opposition" to > official policies on talisman and I thought folks here might be > interested in such a discussion. This is what I said: > > I think the key term in "loyal opposition" is not "opposition" but > "loyal." The real question is whether someone is loyal or not. For > instance, there are lots of Americans who dislike the US Supreme Court's > stands on some issues. But there are very few Americans (perhaps less > than 12%) that reject the *legitimacy* of the authority of the Supreme > Court. If they say, well, I recognize the Supreme Court's authority to > say what the law is on this issue, but I don't like the outcome, then > they are not *traitors* to the US government. They are in loyal > opposition to a particular ruling. I don't see why it makes a difference > whether we are speaking of a civil government or a religious > institution. Hans Kung, the great Catholic theologian, describes himself > as the Pope's 'loyal opposition.' I think Kung's stance very admirable. > It is a religious one. The only religions that do not allow a loyal > opposition are cults, like Scientology, or authoritarian structures like > those of the Khomeinists in Iran. I refuse to believe that any Baha'is > really want those to be the models for our religion. > > Moreover, I don't think the conception of 'loyal opposition' per se is > objected to by all the members of the House of Justice. > > Baha'is have always shown loyal opposition to policies they did not > like. Howard Colby Ives admitted to `Abdu'l-Baha that he just couldn't > give up smoking, and `Abdu'l-Baha said, well, half a pack a day isn't > all that much. Mostly, Baha'is just showed passive resistance. Shoghi > Effendi complained endlessly in his correspondence to the US NSA that > his directives to the US community under Horace Holley were often never > implemented. In fact, a major reason that that correspondence has never > been published appears to be that it would demonstrate how little the > NSA members attended to his policy directives. The generation of the > 1960s that invented the 'Beloved Guardian' way of speaking is said to > have done so in part out of guilt that they hadn't actually paid all > that much attention to Shoghi Effendi while he was alive. > > The House of Justice has a lesser station than the Guardian. I remember > one time discussing some issue with Hushmand Fatheazam, around 1979, and > I was careful to say of this House policy, 'I don't mean to disagree.' > He said, 'Disagree all you like.' or words to that effect. Now, of > course, some may feel I took him too literally at his word. :-) But I > think his sentiment was genuine. One may disagree with the House of > Justice if one's conscience leads one to do so, and may express that > disagreement in private (I suppose 'private' means 'among a small circle > of trusted friends', perhaps 'among less than 9 people?). What was > objected to is the *public* expression of disagreement with House > policies (over 10 people? Including strangers?). > > The problem as I see it is that the advent of cyberspace has severely > weakened the boundaries between private and public views. I see this in > academia all the time--the underlying premises of scholars' work is > being exposed on discussion lists, whereas in the past they might well > have remained unknown except to the author's own circle. > > So, I just don't think old, discrete sort of loyal opposition (which has > always existed in the Baha'i faith) works any more. At a Staff meeting > in Wilmette, Ill. at the National Baha'i Center one morning in the early > 1990s, Bob Henderson (Secretary-General of the National Spiritual > Assembly of the Baha'is of the US) picked up a recent letter from the > House of Justice, slammed it on the table, and said, "Look at what > they've done to us now!" He was expressing loyal opposition. There isn't > any question that he is loyal in a general sort of way to the UHJ. But > he disliked the policy in that letter and thought it inimical to the > best interests of the US NSA or US community. And he said so, in front > of all of these loyal Baha'i staffers (one of whom told me about it). I > am simply adopting the same stance as Mr. Henderson, but doing it on > email rather than behind closed doors, and it is this issue of *where* > the loyal opposition is expressed that makes for the difference in how > his stance and mine have been received. I am afraid I think that the > demand for only private expression of policy differences is a form of > institutionalized hypocrisy, and I'd rather be an outcast than a > hypocrite. > > But, as I said, the key term in the phrase 'loyal opposition' is > 'loyal.' And remember it is only on some issues that I differ, and they > aren't really key. After all, I believe in world peace, in world federal > gov't as an instrument to that end, in the unity of the religions, in > the equality of women and men, in all the Baha'i social principles. I > believe that Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this Day. I > have worked tirelessly for the human rights of Iranian Baha'is. I began > the email petitions to the Iranian gov't in fall of 1998 in protest of > the closure of the Open University, and I printed off the hundreds of > names my Web site garnered from educators and students around the world > and sent them off to Mr. Khatami and Ayatollah Khamenei and the Iran UN > Ambassador with my own hands. This tactic was so successful that NSAs > around the world picked up on it and promoted dozens of such petition > drives by Baha'is at universities. I think it was in part because of the > revelation of how the academic world around the globe feels about this > issue to Mr. Khatami through these petitions that he made his recent > pronouncement in Paris that Baha'is should have basic civil rights in > Iran (a first for this government!). > > So, so what if I think 'temporary' Review should be abolished? Some > members of NSAs have also said this publicly. So what if I think women > should eventually serve on the UHJ? Late UHJ member Borrah Kavelin's > widow, and, it is said, Ruhiyyih Khanum herself, agrees with me. So what > if I believe the House of Justice has only legislative, not > Interpretive, authority? They admitted this to me themselves in a > letter. These minor differences do occasionally put me in a 'loyal > opposition.' But I am not alone there, and even some UHJ members concur. > It is absurd, after all the things I have done for the Baha'i faith, > that a few minor stances of conscience on my part (expressed on email!) > should be used to make me into some sort of pariah. I think it is > important to begin changing the culture of hypocrisy. We should be free > to declare our consciences and express our views. Shoghi Effendi said > so. > > As for Baha'u'llah's example, of course it is there. He was obedient to > the Sultan and the Shah, but he called on them to institute > parliamentary democracy in their realms. As absolute monarchs, they > hated to hear it, hated to hear that above all else, but he said it. He > said it publicly. He was in loyal opposition to the supreme Caliph of > the Sunni Muslim world. He also wanted to reconfigure religion, away > from Caliphism and toward participatory democracy. We have a duty to be > loyal to that vision of Baha'u'llah's. It is what is *really* > revolutionary among all his teachings. > > cheers Juan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Community email addresses: Post message: talisman9@onelist.com > Subscribe: talisman9-subscribe@onelist.com Unsubscribe: > talisman9-unsubscribe@onelist.com List owner: > talisman9-owner@onelist.com > > > > -- > Juan Cole, https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm > Buy *Modernity & Millennium: Genesis of Baha'i* > https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0231110812/qid=933798168/sr=1-1/0 > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 4:00 PM Subject: Re: Lost SRB posts Smaneck wrote in message news:19991213013738.28240.00000896@ng-cg1.aol.com... > It is the policy of the SRB moderators to respond to every post they decide not > to put up. If something is not posted and there is no explanation given it is > likely a technical problem, and not intentional. Oh boy, that's a good one. Ha, ha, ha, ha.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 4:08 PM Subject: Re: Bahai - Re: Who killed Dan Jordan? I'm sure you're a very sincere and good Bahai as you seem to style yourself. However, let me suggest you expand your horizons by permitting yourself to read the actual experience of many other Bahais as related by them on my website. You might start with "Ex-Bahais Explain Why...." -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:833asa$fcl$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Fred, > > Where is all of this fear you talk about. I have been a Baha'i for 10 > years. I have visited Baha'is from Tokyo to London. I have met > Baha'is from all over Africa, Asia, and Europe. I have never once felt > _ANY_ fear of the Baha'i Administration - not once. So who is a afraid? > > You speak very loudly, you cross post to irrelevant newsgroups, you > make veiled allegations, and none of it even comes close to anything I > have ever experienced in the Baha'i Community. > > I have never been trained in any "technique". I have never done > anything that your site attributes to Baha'is. I have at all times in > this forum, attempted to be forthright and open to the ideas > expressed. I have learned quite a bit from Ron House, Nima, Dr. Cole, > Carol, and K Paul Johnson. Though I still disagree with some of the > things they say it does not prevent me from honoring their opinions. > But with you I have had a difficult time. > > You are very devoted to your cause - good for you. But the > confrontational stance, irrelevant cross posts, constant Spam reposts > (which you seem to have stopped and if so - thank you), your > willingness to charaterize the UHJ as potential murderers, and your > general disdain for those of us who wish to follow the Law of God and > obey our institutions while we work for change - all of this is > counterproductive to a real consultation on the issues you hold so dear. > > All of it hurts your cause. > > This whole thread is a prime example of why it does. > > Peace, > > Dave > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 9:12 AM Subject: Re: Is the Eighth Ishraq properly . . . (was: loyal opposition in Baha'i) Juan Cole wrote in message news:834pj8$hh0$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Had anyone > suggested to me when I was 19 that the Baha'i faith was in any way > similar to it in degree of control over discourse, I would have run > as fast as I could in the opposite direction. In fact, of course, what > I was told by the Baha'is, including the Institutions, was that Baha'is > had the right to declare their consciences and express their views and > that there was no such thing as a heresy trial in the Baha'i faith. > That assertion, of course, proved completely incorrect, as I can > attest as an eye-witness. I was told and have heard the same lie many times since enrolling as a Bahai in 1976.... TENS of THOUSANDS of my fellow citizens heard and believed the lies, enrolled in the Bahai faith, and then were driven out as the truth became evident, as the extent of the uhj's distortion of the Teachings became apparent, including many "people of capacity" whom the uhj absurdly claims it wants in the faith only to immediately begin to coerce and silence them.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 9:18 AM Subject: Re: loyal opposition in Baha'i Smaneck wrote in message news:19991213235846.23906.00001367@ng-fi1.aol.com... > The issue is that Dr. Cole holds that they have exercised authority they do not > have. This is a challenge that goes to the heart of the Covenant. As for not > having the interpretive authority, that has never been the issue because the > House has never relegated that right to themselves. What a farce. It's precisely their continual re-interpreting of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha's pervasive respect for free speech and conscience OUT OF EXISTENCE that is indeed THE ISSUE. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 9:25 AM Subject: Re: The distinction between disagreement and opposition The long forward struggle of history has exonerated Thoreau, and it will you too, Juan, and the other victims of this most despicable uhj, fobbing off its hypocritical distortions as the truth.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Juan Cole wrote in message news:83425c$1qq$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > Dear Daniel: > > I haven't raised any posse (whatever could that mean, when > all I've done is send some emails?). I have simply declared my > views and expressed my conscience. Others may agree or > disagree. I can't see that anything I've said since 1994 > has had any effect whatsoever inside the community, nor do I care > whether it does or doesn't. I am an Baha'i intellectual, and I enjoy > thinking about the Baha'i faith, and I enjoy thinking about it with > people on email. Your attempt to make this some sort of crime seems to > me sort of pitiful and if many Baha'is think in this Luddite way, the > community has all the future of Shaker furniture makers. > > I do not believe that `Abdu'l-Baha seriously envisaged 'literature > review' to work in the way that it does now, nor do I believe that > a guardianless House of Justice has the authority to impose its > interpretations on the believers through its agency. I am glad if, > as reported to me by a pilgrim, Peter Khan generally likes my book, > *Modernity and the Millennium*. But he is an electrical engineer, not > a historian, and isn't welcome, singly or in a collectivity with other > electrical engineers, to tell me how to write history, no matter what > they have been elected to. In return, I promise not to do the wiring on > his house in Haifa. (And a good thing for him, too.) > > And yes, obeying a law you think criminal is a form of hypocrisy. That > is why Thoreau went to jail, Daniel. Remember when Emerson came to > visit him and asked, "What in the world are you doing in there?" And he > said, "What in the world are *you* doing out *there*?" When illegal > demands are made on a citizen by the state, the proper place for the > citizen is jail. > > As for there being no place in the community for minority views, such > a sentiment is always the sign of a tyranny of the majority and thus > of tyranny itself. > > cheers Juan > > -- > Juan Cole, https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm > Buy *Modernity & Millennium: Genesis of Baha'i* > https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0231110812/qid=933798168/sr=1-1/0 > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 11:48 AM Subject: Re: Bahai - Re: Who killed Dan Jordan? It's evident you really think you've said it all here.... However, you fail to confront the very real misdeeds and deceits of the uhj and its attack dogs. Similarly, you fail, in typically Bahai fundamentalist fashion, to confront such Words as these by Abdul-Baha: "The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions." Abdu'l-Baha ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- "This is a goodly temple and congregation, for--praise be to God!--this is a house of worship [Central Congregational Church in Brooklyn on 16 June 1912] wherein conscientious opinion has free sway. Every religion and every religious aspiration may be freely voiced and expressed here. Just as in the world of politics there is need for free thought, likewise in the world of religion there should be the right of unrestricted individual belief. Consider what a vast difference exists between modern democracy and the old forms of despotism. Under an autocratic government the opinions of men are not free, and development is stifled, whereas in a democracy, because thought and speech are not restricted, the greatest progress is witnessed. It is likewise true in the world of religion. When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization may give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are inevitable. Therefore, this is a blessed church because its pulpit is open to every religion, the ideals of which may be set forth with openness and freedom." Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, 197. As far as I'm concerned, you're proof of the pudding that the devil can quote scripture, and pervert it.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:835qtm$981$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > I have read nearly every article on your site. I have found some that > were compelling but for the most part they do not resonate with me. > Further more - your site is just one minute corener of the Baha'i > Community. It is a collection of posts from a very small minority (and > not even a unified one) of the world Baha'i population. In all of my > travels I have never encountered these kinds of sentiments or > experiences. > > I have met thousands of Baha'is from all over the world and have only > ever known 2 who have withdrawn from the Faith. One because he no > longer believed in God and the other for personal reasons. > > Your site presents a biased, one-sided view of the Baha'i Faith that > does not match my own experience. > > But don't get me wrong - there is value in the collection of posts on > your site. They sereve a reminder of that the only hope for the Baha'i > Community is full participation of every member of the community in its > own administration expressed through loyalty to Baha'u'llah and the > Covenant He promulgated. The posts on your site have shown me that I > need to be sure that all of the members of my local community and the > isolated believers around us need to be included in the life of the > community if we are to truly be united. > > What your site does not convince me of is any wrong doing by the > Universal House of Justice. From my perspective they have done nothing > to deserve the kind of venom that is pointed their way. Will that > institution mature - surely. But my feeling is that above and beyond > all of the wonderful quotes from 'Abdu'l-Baha that you post on your > site this one from Baha'u'llah supecedes them all: > > "The men of God's House of Justice have been charged with the affairs > of the people. They, in truth, are the Trustees of God among His > servants and the daysprings of authority in His countries. > > O people of God! That which traineth the world is Justice, for it is > upheld by two pillars, reward and punishment. These two pillars are the > sources of life to the world. Inasmuch as for each day there is a new > problem and for every problem an expedient solution, such affairs > should be referred to the House of Justice that the members thereof may > act according to the needs and requirements of the time. They that, for > the sake of God, arise to serve His Cause, are the recipients of divine > inspiration from the unseen Kingdom. It is incumbent upon all to be > obedient unto them." > > -- Bahá'u'lláh, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p.128-129 > > AND THE FOLLOWING: > > > "Consider the pettiness of men's minds. They ask for that which > injureth them, and cast away the thing that profiteth them. They are, > indeed, of those that are far astray. We find some men desiring > liberty, and priding themselves therein. Such men are in the depths of > ignorance. > > Liberty must, in the end, lead to sedition, whose flames none can > quench. Thus warneth you He Who is the Reckoner, the All-Knowing. Know > ye that the embodiment of liberty and its symbol is the animal. That > which beseemeth man is submission unto such restraints as will protect > him from his own ignorance, and guard him against the harm of the > mischief-maker. Liberty causeth man to overstep the bounds of > propriety, and to infringe on the dignity of his station. It debaseth > him to the level of extrème depravity and wickedness. > > Regard men as a flock of sheep that need a shepherd for their > protection. This, verily, is the truth, the certain truth. We approve > of liberty in certain circumstances, and refuse to sanction it in > others. We, verily, are the All-Knowing. > > Say: True liberty consisteth in man's submission unto My commandments, > little as ye know it. Were men to observe that which We have sent down > unto them from the Heaven of Revelation, they would, of a certainty, > attain unto perfect liberty. Happy is the man that hath apprehended the > Purpose of God in whatever He hath revealed from the Heaven of His Will > that pervadeth all created things. Say: The liberty that profiteth you > is to be found nowhere except in complete servitude unto God, the > Eternal Truth. Whoso hath tasted of its sweetness will refuse to barter > it for all the dominion of earth and heaven." > > -- Bahá'u'lláh, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p.63-64 > > > Peace, > > Dave > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Spiroknavenine@aol.com[SMTP:Spiroknavenine@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 12:07 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: THE AETHIESM CLAUSE, DIVORCE RATES, & WHAT-NOT THE AETHIEST CLAUSE IN THE WRITINGS. IS THERE SUCH A THING? If memory serves somewhere Abdu'l-Baha, the Master, the Center of the Covenant, the Mystery of God wrote something that essentially said: * "If religion ceases to be a source of happiness, it is better to have no religion at all." * Few unhappy people in the Bahai community seem to really take advantage of this. Some people I have known in the Bahai community, (regular feast & holy day attenders, even some L.S.A. members, and I wouldn't doubt even some N.S.A. and others) -- essentially use religion as a crutch -- think being in a religious community or attending religious ceremonies is a way to redeem themselves from sins -- think people are doomed in the afterlife if they don't recognize Baha'u'llah's new world order as right -- get off on holding positions of influence -- expect to always be rewarded by praying and meditation -- have childern outside of marriage -- have lots of sex outside of marriage with many different people, some the same gender -- or if they do get married, they don't care if their parents want them to or not -- drink booze, get stoned, or shoot heroin How can the Bahai faith, which is a religion, be a source of happiness enjoy doing ANY of these things? These idiots and morons don't seem to realize Abdu'l-Baha isn't encouraging them or anyone to be Bahais or be a member of any other religion. He encourages happiness above anything else. He even promotes AETHIESM, if necessary. WHAT'S THE BAHAI DIVORCE RATE? I bet it's about the same as the national average. And I bet Bahais get married, divorced and pop out babies for the same petty reasons as anyone else in this country, in spite of what their writings seem to suggest. Never mind that "Fortress for Well Being and Salvation". Never mind family unity. DISCLAIMER: I'm not a bahai so I can gamble and bet I'm also willing to bet most Bahais aren't virgins before they get the mom and dad and their mother and father-inlaws permission to have sex. I'll bet there are a lot of other the similiarities between Bahais and anyone else. WHAT'S THE BAHAI DIVORCE RATE? I bet it's about the same as the national average. And I bet Bahais get married, divorced and pop out babies for the same petty reasons as anyone else in this country, in spite of what their writings seem to suggest. Never mind that "Fortress for Well Being and Salvation". Never mind family unity. I'm also willing to bet most Bahais aren't virgins before they get the mom and dad and their mother and father-inlaws permission to have sex. I'll bet there are a lot of other the similiarities between Bahais and anyone else. Who can actually argue your life is gonna be any more happy as a Bahai? I wan't to hear from you. ---------- From: Spiroknavenine@aol.com[SMTP:Spiroknavenine@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 12:13 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: WHY NO WOMEN ON THE HOUSE There is no statement that specifies why there no women are allowed on the U. House of Justice. However there are statements on differences in capacities in genders. If someone believes women should be on the U House, then they shouldn't claim to be a Bahai. Personally, if I was a Bahai, which I'm not. I would tend to agree with the theory that most women want to get knocked up too much to handle the responsibility. Call me a sexist pig, but it's a valid argument. Men still hold the top posititions of powers worldwide because that's the way women want it. ---------- From: Spiroknavenine@aol.com[SMTP:Spiroknavenine@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 12:45 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Thank you for your uncensored sites on Bahai topics Thank you for your uncensored sites on Bahai topics. Personally, I wonder if the average person with a computer who decides to investigate the Bahai Faith and debate topics in the Bahai faith actually goes to unix newsgroups frequently. It seems to me that the Universal House of Justice and the Bahai writings are in favor of free speech and free forum. If you have a problem the House's policy, you let it know. If you can't follow the rules, then don't claim to be a Bahai. If you hate the Bahai Faith, that's fine just don't claim to be a Bahai. Personally, I'm on sabbatical from any claim of membership on the Bahai Faith. I can't be happy with the rules, and I feel much better. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 7:18 AM Subject: Re: Article by Vance Salisbury concerning the bahai faith Thanks for posting an interesting link. I've added it to my webpage so that others might understand the way "review" works in Bahai circles.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Mr Mahdi wrote in message news:19991215202505.00503.00001506@ng-fg1.aol.com... > The article "An Examination of Suppression and Distortion in 20th Century > Baha'i Literature" can be found here: > > https://www.jps.net/bo55/bbarc.html > > In this article, it contains evidence of bahai editing of their books and > historical backrounds of the babi and bahai faith. After reading this, if any > of you insist on remaining bahai, it just shows how mad and intellectually > insincere some people can get for blind emotional faith and spiritual naivete. > > Mahdi > > https://hometown.aol.com/mrmahdi ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 7:34 AM Subject: REVISED: --bahai-- Messages to uhj regarding their Technique This file contains three messages: "to uhj 12-10-99," "to uhj 7-24-1998," and "The Bahai Technique": From: Patrick Henry Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights of Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed would never be violated in their religion. I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; indeed, the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending Baha'u'llah's Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his Revelation. -- Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.) From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message regarding: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Patrick Henry patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor ; bahai-faith @ makelist.com Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM July 24,1998 Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in Iran would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the international community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, always courting the President and other members of the government, has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents as I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many individuals, Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within the Bahai community and administration. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more than a year and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat twice now, along with the collusion of other Bahais, the creation of an unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under Bahai-Discuss Archives. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA has approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban for more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding talk.religion.bahai. The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," if you will, of Bahai censorship? -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ------------------------------------------------------- THE BAHAI TECHNIQUE: During the last several years or more a number of observers have noted the common methods many Bahais use to avoid various issues or discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: May 12, 1992: "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [over 22]. The usual stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the Truth." Ron House, November 14, 1997: "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so much he says something intemperate, then point out how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this technique works, so I've been making a conscious effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. At any other time, they would overlook faults, as Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode they go for the jugular. Very sad." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/House2.htm June 1998: "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to talk.religion.bahai." "More than twenty different people on my web site have posted messages explaining their experience with srb censorship yet many srb Bahais NEVER address their concerns. Ignoring such charges will not make them go away. NO ONE has to "try" to link the trb interest poll with censorship on srb; the moderators themselves have done that by suppressing droves of people for years. There are many people who believe such suppression is part and parcel of the Bahai community as it exists today. A YES vote need not necessarily support such a belief. There are other reasons Bahais might vote YES." Fran Baker, May 1998: "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a group acts this way. Very scary." Dr. Juan Cole, June 12, 1998: "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified threats of declaring him or her a CB to silence the individual, and if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the gullibility of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket." "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization ostensibly committed to tolerance!" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Cole10.htm K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in their condemnations of their fellow believers, I would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not character assassination by innuendo, what is?" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson18.htm Gibro28W, October 12, 1998: "In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out as "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs of its members in the first place." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb73.htm Barthaman on September 14, 1998: "Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too. Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)-- after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion? Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on, however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud. Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb66.htm Juan Cole wrote, February 23, 1999: "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon them to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do not fall silent." "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech about the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You will note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long-term heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose with the facts,'and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused of all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been backbitten by them." "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute." "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five years. He can explain it to you." Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson21.htm And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb65.htm Comments on the related techniques of Susan Maneck: Juan Cole, February 13, 1999: "It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning, they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion." "I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled with hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just have shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is about has anything at all to do with *universities*!" February 15, 1999: "Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better, since the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. And it then allows her to claim pretty much anything she wants to while seeming to have discredited her opponent. Further, she relies on the tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By shrieking "slander" and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates whatever the topic or content might be and that allows her to appear to win what is often a narrowly legalistic point or interpretation." "All of this is done, of course, in conjunction with her employing the more common Bahai techniques of intimidation and psychological demonization and terrorism." Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm This document at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations[SMTP:ieco@bwc.org] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 9:43 AM Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message regarding: "removed from the membership rolls" (Re: REVISED: --bahai-- Messages to uhj regarding their Technique) has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 9:44 AM Subject: "removed from the membership rolls" (Re: REVISED: --bahai-- Messages to uhj regarding their Technique) Ha, ha, ha, ha.... My how desperate Bahai fundamentalists are.... In lieu of any official communication directly from the uhj, describing what it imagines my offense might be and detailing the passages in the Writings that permits such spiritual terrorism, I am certainly not about to believe the claims and forgeries of rabidly hateful and spiteful fellow Bahais like this person.... My soul and conscience are not under the control of the pathetically dishonest and oppressive uhj, nor are the souls of any of its other victims.... I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:83dpqu$vnb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Fred is not a member of the Baha'i Community. He was removed from the > roles in February of 1999. The Baha'i ID that he displays on his > website is not valid. > > His claim of membership in the Baha'i Community is false. > > This was confirmed in a reply to my inquiry to the national center's > membership services. > > This was their reply: > > "Subject: Status of Fredrick Glaysher > > > To: Mr. David Fiorito > > Dear Baha'i Friend, > > In response to your inquiry about the status of Mr. Fredrick Glaysher, > the records of the Baha'i National Center reflect that Mr. Glaysher's > name was removed from the membership rolls in February 1999, and he is > not considered to be a member of the Baha'i Faith. > > With loving Baha'i greetings, > > ****** * ********* > For the Office of the Secretary > > > > In article , > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > This file contains three messages: "to uhj 12-10-99," "to uhj 7-24- > 1998," > > and "The Bahai Technique": > > > > From: Patrick Henry > > Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed > > Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM > > > > Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights > of > > Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the > > Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in > > protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, > > former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, > > and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my > > website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... > > Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. > > > > I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card > > may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj > > or any of its underlings to the contrary. > > > > Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual > > God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed > > would never be violated in their religion. > > > > I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me > directly > > on the matter. > > > > I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; > indeed, > > the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending > Baha'u'llah's > > Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his > > Revelation. > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > (Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.) > > From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations > > Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... > > Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > This is an automated acknowledgement. > > > > Your message regarding: > > > > Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed > > > > has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: Patrick Henry patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com > > To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor > ; > > bahai-faith @ makelist.com > > Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 > > Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM > > July 24,1998 > > > > Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: > > > > As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet > > another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements > > made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly > > of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in > > The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally > > lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President > > Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in > Iran > > would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the > international > > community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek > > justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." > > > > The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation > > of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, > > always courting the President and other members of the government, > > has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context > > of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human > > and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents > as > > I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, > > available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine > > Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai > > Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at > > Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many > individuals, > > Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within > > the Bahai community and administration. > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm > > > > To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more > > than a year and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications > > Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat > > twice now, along with the collusion of other Bahais, the creation of > an > > unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as > > talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of > > these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and > > non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom > > of Conscience": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is > > approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the > > BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private > > Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of > > discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by > > many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in > > that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under > > Bahai-Discuss Archives. > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm > > > > Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA > has > > approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by > > the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban > for > > more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding > > talk.religion.bahai. > > > > The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and > > religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot > > but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai > > administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. > > > > I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and > > what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," > if > > you will, of Bahai censorship? > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > THE BAHAI TECHNIQUE: > > > > During the last several years or more a number of observers have noted > > the common methods many Bahais use to avoid various issues or > > discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: > > > > May 12, 1992: > > "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of > > the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I > > have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [over 22]. The > usual > > stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience > > in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of > > criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak > > honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual > > life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of > > unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, > > which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the > > person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire > > control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him > > pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the > > Truth." > > > > Ron House, November 14, 1997: > > "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that > > there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and > > others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so > > much he says something intemperate, then point out > > how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how > > nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this > > technique works, so I've been making a conscious > > effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the > > dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he > > invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they > > can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did > > this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. > > At any other time, they would overlook faults, as > > Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode > > they go for the jugular. Very sad." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/House2.htm > > > > June 1998: > > "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by > > many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about > > an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to > > the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, > > ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their > > messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them > > through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up > > on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action > > of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to > > talk.religion.bahai." > > "More than twenty different people on my web site have posted messages > > explaining their experience with srb censorship yet many srb Bahais > > NEVER address their concerns. Ignoring such charges will not make > > them go away. NO ONE has to "try" to link the trb interest poll with > > censorship on srb; the moderators themselves have done that by > > suppressing droves of people for years. There are many people who > > believe such suppression is part and parcel of the Bahai > > community as it exists today. A YES vote need not necessarily > > support such a belief. There are other reasons Bahais might vote > > YES." > > > > Fran Baker, May 1998: > > "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common > > technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially > > effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both > > sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating > > technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is > > to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat > > up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard > > to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal > > relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a group > > acts this way. Very scary." > > > > Dr. Juan Cole, June 12, 1998: > > "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my > > professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very > > technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to > > unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified > > threats of declaring him or her a CB to silence the individual, and > > if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the > gullibility > > of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of > > course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and > > could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket." > > "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been > > enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility > > with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy > > to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside > > world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization > > ostensibly committed to tolerance!" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Cole10.htm > > > > K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: > > "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] > > were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in > > their condemnations of their fellow believers, I > > would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i > > affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the > > preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling > > dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan > > Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've > > "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some > > awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not > > character assassination by innuendo, what is?" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson18.htm > > > > Gibro28W, October 12, 1998: > > "In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, > > is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out > as > > "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish > > attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join > > them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the > > group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's > > mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their > > "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." > > If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the > > convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a > > broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs > > of its members in the first place." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb73.htm > > > > Barthaman on September 14, 1998: > > "Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned > > by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and > > dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider > > their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too. > > Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned > > following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)-- > > after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion? > > Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is > > why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while > > some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding > > a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on, > > however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud. > > Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next > > dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb66.htm > > > > Juan Cole wrote, February 23, 1999: > > "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to > > hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they > > will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." > > > > "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only > > hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that > > differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from > > enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." > > > > "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon > them > > to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do > not > > fall silent." > > > > "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech > about > > the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You > will > > note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long- > term > > heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was > > retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose > > with the facts,'and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused > of > > all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been > > backbitten by them." > > > > "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, > > all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with > > honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing > > Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice > > they cannot silence and cannot refute." > > > > "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five > > years. He can explain it to you." > > > > Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson21.htm > > > > And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb65.htm > > > > Comments on the related techniques of Susan Maneck: > > > > Juan Cole, February 13, 1999: > > "It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading > > Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the > > desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning, > > they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion." > > > > "I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled > with > > hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and > > tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning > > and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just > have > > shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and > > slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is > > about has anything at all to do with *universities*!" > > > > February 15, 1999: > > "Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to > > shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when > > why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better, since > > the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to > > keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her > > hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. And it then allows her > > to claim pretty much anything she wants to while seeming to > > have discredited her opponent. Further, she relies on the > > tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be > > supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By shrieking > > "slander" and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is > > able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates > > whatever the topic or content might be and that allows her to > > appear to win what is often a narrowly legalistic point or > > interpretation." > > > > "All of this is done, of course, in conjunction with her employing > > the more common Bahai techniques of intimidation and > > psychological demonization and terrorism." > > > > Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as garbage: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm > > > > Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as litter: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm > > > > This document at > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm > > > > See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, > > discusses related issues in his journal article "The > > Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": > > > > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > > > Also see: > > > > Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm > > > > Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm > > > > Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary > > Board > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 9:46 AM To: UHJ Subject: "removed from the membership rolls" (Re: REVISED: --bahai-- Messages to uhj regarding their Technique) Ha, ha, ha, ha.... My, how desperate Bahai fundamentalists are.... In lieu of any official communication directly from the uhj, describing what it imagines my offense might be and detailing the passages in the Writings that permits such spiritual terrorism, I am certainly not about to believe the claims and forgeries of rabidly hateful and spiteful fellow Bahais like this person.... My soul and conscience are not under the control of the pathetically dishonest and oppressive uhj, nor are the souls of any of its other victims.... I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:83dpqu$vnb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Fred is not a member of the Baha'i Community. He was removed from the > roles in February of 1999. The Baha'i ID that he displays on his > website is not valid. > > His claim of membership in the Baha'i Community is false. > > This was confirmed in a reply to my inquiry to the national center's > membership services. > > This was their reply: > > "Subject: Status of Fredrick Glaysher > > > To: Mr. David Fiorito > > Dear Baha'i Friend, > > In response to your inquiry about the status of Mr. Fredrick Glaysher, > the records of the Baha'i National Center reflect that Mr. Glaysher's > name was removed from the membership rolls in February 1999, and he is > not considered to be a member of the Baha'i Faith. > > With loving Baha'i greetings, > > ****** * ********* > For the Office of the Secretary > > > > In article , > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > This file contains three messages: "to uhj 12-10-99," "to uhj 7-24- > 1998," > > and "The Bahai Technique": > > > > From: Patrick Henry > > Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed > > Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM > > > > Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights > of > > Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the > > Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in > > protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, > > former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, > > and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my > > website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... > > Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. > > > > I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card > > may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj > > or any of its underlings to the contrary. > > > > Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual > > God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed > > would never be violated in their religion. > > > > I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me > directly > > on the matter. > > > > I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; > indeed, > > the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending > Baha'u'llah's > > Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his > > Revelation. > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > (Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.) > > From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations > > Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... > > Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > This is an automated acknowledgement. > > > > Your message regarding: > > > > Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed > > > > has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: Patrick Henry patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com > > To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor > ; > > bahai-faith @ makelist.com > > Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 > > Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM > > July 24,1998 > > > > Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: > > > > As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet > > another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements > > made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly > > of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in > > The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally > > lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President > > Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in > Iran > > would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the > international > > community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek > > justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." > > > > The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation > > of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, > > always courting the President and other members of the government, > > has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context > > of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human > > and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents > as > > I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, > > available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine > > Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai > > Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at > > Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many > individuals, > > Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within > > the Bahai community and administration. > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm > > > > To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more > > than a year and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications > > Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat > > twice now, along with the collusion of other Bahais, the creation of > an > > unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as > > talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of > > these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and > > non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom > > of Conscience": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is > > approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the > > BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private > > Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of > > discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by > > many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in > > that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under > > Bahai-Discuss Archives. > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm > > > > Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA > has > > approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by > > the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban > for > > more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding > > talk.religion.bahai. > > > > The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and > > religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot > > but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai > > administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. > > > > I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and > > what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," > if > > you will, of Bahai censorship? > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > THE BAHAI TECHNIQUE: > > > > During the last several years or more a number of observers have noted > > the common methods many Bahais use to avoid various issues or > > discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: > > > > May 12, 1992: > > "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of > > the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I > > have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [over 22]. The > usual > > stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience > > in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of > > criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak > > honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual > > life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of > > unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, > > which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the > > person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire > > control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him > > pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the > > Truth." > > > > Ron House, November 14, 1997: > > "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that > > there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and > > others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so > > much he says something intemperate, then point out > > how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how > > nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this > > technique works, so I've been making a conscious > > effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the > > dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he > > invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they > > can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did > > this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. > > At any other time, they would overlook faults, as > > Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode > > they go for the jugular. Very sad." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/House2.htm > > > > June 1998: > > "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by > > many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about > > an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to > > the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, > > ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their > > messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them > > through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up > > on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action > > of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to > > talk.religion.bahai." > > "More than twenty different people on my web site have posted messages > > explaining their experience with srb censorship yet many srb Bahais > > NEVER address their concerns. Ignoring such charges will not make > > them go away. NO ONE has to "try" to link the trb interest poll with > > censorship on srb; the moderators themselves have done that by > > suppressing droves of people for years. There are many people who > > believe such suppression is part and parcel of the Bahai > > community as it exists today. A YES vote need not necessarily > > support such a belief. There are other reasons Bahais might vote > > YES." > > > > Fran Baker, May 1998: > > "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common > > technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially > > effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both > > sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating > > technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is > > to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat > > up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard > > to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal > > relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a group > > acts this way. Very scary." > > > > Dr. Juan Cole, June 12, 1998: > > "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my > > professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very > > technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to > > unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified > > threats of declaring him or her a CB to silence the individual, and > > if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the > gullibility > > of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of > > course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and > > could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket." > > "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been > > enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility > > with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy > > to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside > > world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization > > ostensibly committed to tolerance!" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Cole10.htm > > > > K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: > > "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] > > were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in > > their condemnations of their fellow believers, I > > would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i > > affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the > > preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling > > dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan > > Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've > > "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some > > awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not > > character assassination by innuendo, what is?" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson18.htm > > > > Gibro28W, October 12, 1998: > > "In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, > > is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out > as > > "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish > > attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join > > them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the > > group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's > > mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their > > "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." > > If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the > > convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a > > broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs > > of its members in the first place." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb73.htm > > > > Barthaman on September 14, 1998: > > "Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned > > by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and > > dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider > > their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too. > > Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned > > following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)-- > > after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion? > > Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is > > why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while > > some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding > > a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on, > > however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud. > > Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next > > dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb66.htm > > > > Juan Cole wrote, February 23, 1999: > > "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to > > hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they > > will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." > > > > "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only > > hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that > > differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from > > enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." > > > > "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon > them > > to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do > not > > fall silent." > > > > "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech > about > > the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You > will > > note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long- > term > > heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was > > retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose > > with the facts,'and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused > of > > all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been > > backbitten by them." > > > > "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, > > all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with > > honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing > > Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice > > they cannot silence and cannot refute." > > > > "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five > > years. He can explain it to you." > > > > Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson21.htm > > > > And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb65.htm > > > > Comments on the related techniques of Susan Maneck: > > > > Juan Cole, February 13, 1999: > > "It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading > > Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the > > desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning, > > they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion." > > > > "I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled > with > > hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and > > tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning > > and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just > have > > shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and > > slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is > > about has anything at all to do with *universities*!" > > > > February 15, 1999: > > "Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to > > shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when > > why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better, since > > the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to > > keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her > > hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. And it then allows her > > to claim pretty much anything she wants to while seeming to > > have discredited her opponent. Further, she relies on the > > tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be > > supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By shrieking > > "slander" and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is > > able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates > > whatever the topic or content might be and that allows her to > > appear to win what is often a narrowly legalistic point or > > interpretation." > > > > "All of this is done, of course, in conjunction with her employing > > the more common Bahai techniques of intimidation and > > psychological demonization and terrorism." > > > > Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as garbage: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm > > > > Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as litter: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm > > > > This document at > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm > > > > See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, > > discusses related issues in his journal article "The > > Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": > > > > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > > > Also see: > > > > Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm > > > > Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm > > > > Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary > > Board > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 9:47 AM To: talisman Subject: "removed from the membership rolls" (Re: REVISED: --bahai-- Messages to uhj regarding their Technique) Ha, ha, ha, ha.... My how desperate Bahai fundamentalists are.... In lieu of any official communication directly from the uhj, describing what it imagines my offense might be and detailing the passages in the Writings that permits such spiritual terrorism, I am certainly not about to believe the claims and forgeries of rabidly hateful and spiteful fellow Bahais like this person.... My soul and conscience are not under the control of the pathetically dishonest and oppressive uhj, nor are the souls of any of its other victims.... I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:83dpqu$vnb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Fred is not a member of the Baha'i Community. He was removed from the > roles in February of 1999. The Baha'i ID that he displays on his > website is not valid. > > His claim of membership in the Baha'i Community is false. > > This was confirmed in a reply to my inquiry to the national center's > membership services. > > This was their reply: > > "Subject: Status of Fredrick Glaysher > > > To: Mr. David Fiorito > > Dear Baha'i Friend, > > In response to your inquiry about the status of Mr. Fredrick Glaysher, > the records of the Baha'i National Center reflect that Mr. Glaysher's > name was removed from the membership rolls in February 1999, and he is > not considered to be a member of the Baha'i Faith. > > With loving Baha'i greetings, > > ****** * ********* > For the Office of the Secretary > > > > In article , > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > This file contains three messages: "to uhj 12-10-99," "to uhj 7-24- > 1998," > > and "The Bahai Technique": > > > > From: Patrick Henry > > Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed > > Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM > > > > Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights > of > > Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the > > Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in > > protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, > > former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, > > and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my > > website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... > > Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. > > > > I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card > > may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj > > or any of its underlings to the contrary. > > > > Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual > > God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed > > would never be violated in their religion. > > > > I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me > directly > > on the matter. > > > > I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; > indeed, > > the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending > Baha'u'llah's > > Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his > > Revelation. > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > (Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.) > > From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations > > Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... > > Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > This is an automated acknowledgement. > > > > Your message regarding: > > > > Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed > > > > has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: Patrick Henry patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com > > To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor > ; > > bahai-faith @ makelist.com > > Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 > > Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM > > July 24,1998 > > > > Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: > > > > As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet > > another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements > > made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly > > of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in > > The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally > > lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President > > Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in > Iran > > would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the > international > > community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek > > justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." > > > > The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation > > of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, > > always courting the President and other members of the government, > > has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context > > of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human > > and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents > as > > I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, > > available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine > > Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai > > Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at > > Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many > individuals, > > Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within > > the Bahai community and administration. > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm > > > > To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more > > than a year and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications > > Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat > > twice now, along with the collusion of other Bahais, the creation of > an > > unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as > > talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of > > these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and > > non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom > > of Conscience": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is > > approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the > > BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private > > Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of > > discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by > > many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in > > that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under > > Bahai-Discuss Archives. > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm > > > > Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA > has > > approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by > > the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban > for > > more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding > > talk.religion.bahai. > > > > The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and > > religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot > > but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai > > administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. > > > > I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and > > what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," > if > > you will, of Bahai censorship? > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > THE BAHAI TECHNIQUE: > > > > During the last several years or more a number of observers have noted > > the common methods many Bahais use to avoid various issues or > > discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: > > > > May 12, 1992: > > "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of > > the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I > > have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [over 22]. The > usual > > stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience > > in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of > > criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak > > honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual > > life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of > > unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, > > which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the > > person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire > > control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him > > pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the > > Truth." > > > > Ron House, November 14, 1997: > > "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that > > there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and > > others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so > > much he says something intemperate, then point out > > how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how > > nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this > > technique works, so I've been making a conscious > > effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the > > dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he > > invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they > > can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did > > this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. > > At any other time, they would overlook faults, as > > Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode > > they go for the jugular. Very sad." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/House2.htm > > > > June 1998: > > "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by > > many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about > > an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to > > the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, > > ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their > > messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them > > through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up > > on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action > > of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to > > talk.religion.bahai." > > "More than twenty different people on my web site have posted messages > > explaining their experience with srb censorship yet many srb Bahais > > NEVER address their concerns. Ignoring such charges will not make > > them go away. NO ONE has to "try" to link the trb interest poll with > > censorship on srb; the moderators themselves have done that by > > suppressing droves of people for years. There are many people who > > believe such suppression is part and parcel of the Bahai > > community as it exists today. A YES vote need not necessarily > > support such a belief. There are other reasons Bahais might vote > > YES." > > > > Fran Baker, May 1998: > > "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common > > technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially > > effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both > > sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating > > technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is > > to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat > > up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard > > to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal > > relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a group > > acts this way. Very scary." > > > > Dr. Juan Cole, June 12, 1998: > > "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my > > professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very > > technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to > > unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified > > threats of declaring him or her a CB to silence the individual, and > > if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the > gullibility > > of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of > > course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and > > could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket." > > "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been > > enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility > > with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy > > to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside > > world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization > > ostensibly committed to tolerance!" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Cole10.htm > > > > K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: > > "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] > > were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in > > their condemnations of their fellow believers, I > > would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i > > affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the > > preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling > > dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan > > Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've > > "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some > > awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not > > character assassination by innuendo, what is?" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson18.htm > > > > Gibro28W, October 12, 1998: > > "In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, > > is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out > as > > "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish > > attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join > > them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the > > group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's > > mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their > > "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." > > If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the > > convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a > > broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs > > of its members in the first place." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb73.htm > > > > Barthaman on September 14, 1998: > > "Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned > > by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and > > dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider > > their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too. > > Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned > > following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)-- > > after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion? > > Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is > > why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while > > some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding > > a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on, > > however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud. > > Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next > > dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb66.htm > > > > Juan Cole wrote, February 23, 1999: > > "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to > > hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they > > will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." > > > > "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only > > hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that > > differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from > > enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." > > > > "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon > them > > to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do > not > > fall silent." > > > > "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech > about > > the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You > will > > note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long- > term > > heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was > > retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose > > with the facts,'and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused > of > > all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been > > backbitten by them." > > > > "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, > > all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with > > honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing > > Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice > > they cannot silence and cannot refute." > > > > "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five > > years. He can explain it to you." > > > > Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson21.htm > > > > And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb65.htm > > > > Comments on the related techniques of Susan Maneck: > > > > Juan Cole, February 13, 1999: > > "It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading > > Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the > > desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning, > > they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion." > > > > "I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled > with > > hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and > > tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning > > and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just > have > > shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and > > slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is > > about has anything at all to do with *universities*!" > > > > February 15, 1999: > > "Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to > > shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when > > why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better, since > > the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to > > keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her > > hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. And it then allows her > > to claim pretty much anything she wants to while seeming to > > have discredited her opponent. Further, she relies on the > > tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be > > supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By shrieking > > "slander" and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is > > able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates > > whatever the topic or content might be and that allows her to > > appear to win what is often a narrowly legalistic point or > > interpretation." > > > > "All of this is done, of course, in conjunction with her employing > > the more common Bahai techniques of intimidation and > > psychological demonization and terrorism." > > > > Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as garbage: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm > > > > Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as litter: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm > > > > This document at > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm > > > > See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, > > discusses related issues in his journal article "The > > Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": > > > > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > > > Also see: > > > > Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm > > > > Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm > > > > Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary > > Board > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 9:47 AM To: Juan Cole Subject: "removed from the membership rolls" (Re: REVISED: --bahai-- Messages to uhj regarding their Technique) Ha, ha, ha, ha.... My how desperate Bahai fundamentalists are.... In lieu of any official communication directly from the uhj, describing what it imagines my offense might be and detailing the passages in the Writings that permits such spiritual terrorism, I am certainly not about to believe the claims and forgeries of rabidly hateful and spiteful fellow Bahais like this person.... My soul and conscience are not under the control of the pathetically dishonest and oppressive uhj, nor are the souls of any of its other victims.... I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:83dpqu$vnb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Fred is not a member of the Baha'i Community. He was removed from the > roles in February of 1999. The Baha'i ID that he displays on his > website is not valid. > > His claim of membership in the Baha'i Community is false. > > This was confirmed in a reply to my inquiry to the national center's > membership services. > > This was their reply: > > "Subject: Status of Fredrick Glaysher > > > To: Mr. David Fiorito > > Dear Baha'i Friend, > > In response to your inquiry about the status of Mr. Fredrick Glaysher, > the records of the Baha'i National Center reflect that Mr. Glaysher's > name was removed from the membership rolls in February 1999, and he is > not considered to be a member of the Baha'i Faith. > > With loving Baha'i greetings, > > ****** * ********* > For the Office of the Secretary > > > > In article , > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > This file contains three messages: "to uhj 12-10-99," "to uhj 7-24- > 1998," > > and "The Bahai Technique": > > > > From: Patrick Henry > > Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed > > Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM > > > > Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights > of > > Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the > > Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in > > protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, > > former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, > > and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my > > website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... > > Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. > > > > I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card > > may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj > > or any of its underlings to the contrary. > > > > Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual > > God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed > > would never be violated in their religion. > > > > I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me > directly > > on the matter. > > > > I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; > indeed, > > the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending > Baha'u'llah's > > Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his > > Revelation. > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > (Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.) > > From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations > > Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... > > Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > This is an automated acknowledgement. > > > > Your message regarding: > > > > Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed > > > > has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: Patrick Henry patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com > > To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor > ; > > bahai-faith @ makelist.com > > Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 > > Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM > > July 24,1998 > > > > Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: > > > > As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet > > another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements > > made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly > > of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in > > The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally > > lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President > > Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in > Iran > > would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the > international > > community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek > > justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." > > > > The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation > > of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, > > always courting the President and other members of the government, > > has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context > > of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human > > and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents > as > > I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, > > available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine > > Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai > > Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at > > Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many > individuals, > > Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within > > the Bahai community and administration. > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm > > > > To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more > > than a year and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications > > Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat > > twice now, along with the collusion of other Bahais, the creation of > an > > unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as > > talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of > > these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and > > non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom > > of Conscience": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is > > approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the > > BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private > > Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of > > discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by > > many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in > > that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under > > Bahai-Discuss Archives. > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm > > > > Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA > has > > approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by > > the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban > for > > more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding > > talk.religion.bahai. > > > > The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and > > religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot > > but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai > > administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. > > > > I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and > > what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," > if > > you will, of Bahai censorship? > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > THE BAHAI TECHNIQUE: > > > > During the last several years or more a number of observers have noted > > the common methods many Bahais use to avoid various issues or > > discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: > > > > May 12, 1992: > > "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of > > the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I > > have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [over 22]. The > usual > > stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience > > in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of > > criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak > > honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual > > life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of > > unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, > > which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the > > person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire > > control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him > > pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the > > Truth." > > > > Ron House, November 14, 1997: > > "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that > > there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and > > others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so > > much he says something intemperate, then point out > > how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how > > nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this > > technique works, so I've been making a conscious > > effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the > > dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he > > invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they > > can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did > > this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. > > At any other time, they would overlook faults, as > > Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode > > they go for the jugular. Very sad." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/House2.htm > > > > June 1998: > > "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by > > many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about > > an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to > > the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, > > ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their > > messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them > > through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up > > on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action > > of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to > > talk.religion.bahai." > > "More than twenty different people on my web site have posted messages > > explaining their experience with srb censorship yet many srb Bahais > > NEVER address their concerns. Ignoring such charges will not make > > them go away. NO ONE has to "try" to link the trb interest poll with > > censorship on srb; the moderators themselves have done that by > > suppressing droves of people for years. There are many people who > > believe such suppression is part and parcel of the Bahai > > community as it exists today. A YES vote need not necessarily > > support such a belief. There are other reasons Bahais might vote > > YES." > > > > Fran Baker, May 1998: > > "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common > > technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially > > effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both > > sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating > > technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is > > to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat > > up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard > > to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal > > relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a group > > acts this way. Very scary." > > > > Dr. Juan Cole, June 12, 1998: > > "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my > > professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very > > technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to > > unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified > > threats of declaring him or her a CB to silence the individual, and > > if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the > gullibility > > of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of > > course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and > > could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket." > > "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been > > enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility > > with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy > > to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside > > world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization > > ostensibly committed to tolerance!" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Cole10.htm > > > > K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: > > "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] > > were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in > > their condemnations of their fellow believers, I > > would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i > > affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the > > preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling > > dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan > > Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've > > "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some > > awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not > > character assassination by innuendo, what is?" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson18.htm > > > > Gibro28W, October 12, 1998: > > "In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, > > is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out > as > > "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish > > attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join > > them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the > > group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's > > mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their > > "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." > > If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the > > convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a > > broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs > > of its members in the first place." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb73.htm > > > > Barthaman on September 14, 1998: > > "Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned > > by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and > > dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider > > their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too. > > Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned > > following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)-- > > after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion? > > Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is > > why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while > > some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding > > a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on, > > however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud. > > Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next > > dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb66.htm > > > > Juan Cole wrote, February 23, 1999: > > "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to > > hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they > > will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." > > > > "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only > > hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that > > differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from > > enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." > > > > "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon > them > > to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do > not > > fall silent." > > > > "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech > about > > the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You > will > > note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long- > term > > heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was > > retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose > > with the facts,'and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused > of > > all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been > > backbitten by them." > > > > "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, > > all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with > > honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing > > Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice > > they cannot silence and cannot refute." > > > > "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five > > years. He can explain it to you." > > > > Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson21.htm > > > > And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb65.htm > > > > Comments on the related techniques of Susan Maneck: > > > > Juan Cole, February 13, 1999: > > "It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading > > Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the > > desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning, > > they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion." > > > > "I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled > with > > hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and > > tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning > > and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just > have > > shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and > > slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is > > about has anything at all to do with *universities*!" > > > > February 15, 1999: > > "Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to > > shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when > > why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better, since > > the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to > > keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her > > hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. And it then allows her > > to claim pretty much anything she wants to while seeming to > > have discredited her opponent. Further, she relies on the > > tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be > > supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By shrieking > > "slander" and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is > > able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates > > whatever the topic or content might be and that allows her to > > appear to win what is often a narrowly legalistic point or > > interpretation." > > > > "All of this is done, of course, in conjunction with her employing > > the more common Bahai techniques of intimidation and > > psychological demonization and terrorism." > > > > Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as garbage: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm > > > > Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as litter: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm > > > > This document at > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm > > > > See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, > > discusses related issues in his journal article "The > > Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": > > > > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > > > Also see: > > > > Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm > > > > Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm > > > > Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary > > Board > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 9:48 AM To: McKenny Michael Subject: "removed from the membership rolls" (Re: REVISED: --bahai-- Messages to uhj regarding their Technique) Ha, ha, ha, ha.... My how desperate Bahai fundamentalists are.... In lieu of any official communication directly from the uhj, describing what it imagines my offense might be and detailing the passages in the Writings that permits such spiritual terrorism, I am certainly not about to believe the claims and forgeries of rabidly hateful and spiteful fellow Bahais like this person.... My soul and conscience are not under the control of the pathetically dishonest and oppressive uhj, nor are the souls of any of its other victims.... I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:83dpqu$vnb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Fred is not a member of the Baha'i Community. He was removed from the > roles in February of 1999. The Baha'i ID that he displays on his > website is not valid. > > His claim of membership in the Baha'i Community is false. > > This was confirmed in a reply to my inquiry to the national center's > membership services. > > This was their reply: > > "Subject: Status of Fredrick Glaysher > > > To: Mr. David Fiorito > > Dear Baha'i Friend, > > In response to your inquiry about the status of Mr. Fredrick Glaysher, > the records of the Baha'i National Center reflect that Mr. Glaysher's > name was removed from the membership rolls in February 1999, and he is > not considered to be a member of the Baha'i Faith. > > With loving Baha'i greetings, > > ****** * ********* > For the Office of the Secretary > > > > In article , > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > This file contains three messages: "to uhj 12-10-99," "to uhj 7-24- > 1998," > > and "The Bahai Technique": > > > > From: Patrick Henry > > Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed > > Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM > > > > Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights > of > > Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the > > Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in > > protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, > > former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, > > and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my > > website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... > > Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. > > > > I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card > > may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj > > or any of its underlings to the contrary. > > > > Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual > > God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed > > would never be violated in their religion. > > > > I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me > directly > > on the matter. > > > > I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; > indeed, > > the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending > Baha'u'llah's > > Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his > > Revelation. > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > (Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.) > > From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations > > Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... > > Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > This is an automated acknowledgement. > > > > Your message regarding: > > > > Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed > > > > has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: Patrick Henry patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com > > To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor > ; > > bahai-faith @ makelist.com > > Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 > > Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM > > July 24,1998 > > > > Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: > > > > As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet > > another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements > > made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly > > of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in > > The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally > > lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President > > Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in > Iran > > would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the > international > > community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek > > justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." > > > > The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation > > of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, > > always courting the President and other members of the government, > > has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context > > of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human > > and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents > as > > I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, > > available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine > > Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai > > Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at > > Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many > individuals, > > Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within > > the Bahai community and administration. > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm > > > > To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more > > than a year and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications > > Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat > > twice now, along with the collusion of other Bahais, the creation of > an > > unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as > > talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of > > these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and > > non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom > > of Conscience": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is > > approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the > > BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private > > Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of > > discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by > > many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in > > that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under > > Bahai-Discuss Archives. > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm > > > > Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA > has > > approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by > > the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban > for > > more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding > > talk.religion.bahai. > > > > The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and > > religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot > > but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai > > administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. > > > > I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and > > what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," > if > > you will, of Bahai censorship? > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > THE BAHAI TECHNIQUE: > > > > During the last several years or more a number of observers have noted > > the common methods many Bahais use to avoid various issues or > > discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: > > > > May 12, 1992: > > "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of > > the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I > > have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [over 22]. The > usual > > stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience > > in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of > > criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak > > honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual > > life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of > > unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, > > which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the > > person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire > > control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him > > pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the > > Truth." > > > > Ron House, November 14, 1997: > > "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that > > there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and > > others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so > > much he says something intemperate, then point out > > how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how > > nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this > > technique works, so I've been making a conscious > > effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the > > dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he > > invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they > > can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did > > this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. > > At any other time, they would overlook faults, as > > Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode > > they go for the jugular. Very sad." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/House2.htm > > > > June 1998: > > "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by > > many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about > > an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to > > the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, > > ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their > > messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them > > through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up > > on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action > > of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to > > talk.religion.bahai." > > "More than twenty different people on my web site have posted messages > > explaining their experience with srb censorship yet many srb Bahais > > NEVER address their concerns. Ignoring such charges will not make > > them go away. NO ONE has to "try" to link the trb interest poll with > > censorship on srb; the moderators themselves have done that by > > suppressing droves of people for years. There are many people who > > believe such suppression is part and parcel of the Bahai > > community as it exists today. A YES vote need not necessarily > > support such a belief. There are other reasons Bahais might vote > > YES." > > > > Fran Baker, May 1998: > > "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common > > technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially > > effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both > > sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating > > technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is > > to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat > > up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard > > to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal > > relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a group > > acts this way. Very scary." > > > > Dr. Juan Cole, June 12, 1998: > > "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my > > professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very > > technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to > > unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified > > threats of declaring him or her a CB to silence the individual, and > > if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the > gullibility > > of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of > > course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and > > could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket." > > "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been > > enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility > > with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy > > to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside > > world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization > > ostensibly committed to tolerance!" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Cole10.htm > > > > K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: > > "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] > > were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in > > their condemnations of their fellow believers, I > > would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i > > affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the > > preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling > > dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan > > Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've > > "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some > > awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not > > character assassination by innuendo, what is?" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson18.htm > > > > Gibro28W, October 12, 1998: > > "In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, > > is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out > as > > "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish > > attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join > > them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the > > group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's > > mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their > > "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." > > If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the > > convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a > > broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs > > of its members in the first place." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb73.htm > > > > Barthaman on September 14, 1998: > > "Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned > > by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and > > dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider > > their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too. > > Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned > > following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)-- > > after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion? > > Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is > > why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while > > some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding > > a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on, > > however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud. > > Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next > > dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb66.htm > > > > Juan Cole wrote, February 23, 1999: > > "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to > > hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they > > will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." > > > > "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only > > hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that > > differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from > > enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." > > > > "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon > them > > to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do > not > > fall silent." > > > > "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech > about > > the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You > will > > note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long- > term > > heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was > > retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose > > with the facts,'and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused > of > > all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been > > backbitten by them." > > > > "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, > > all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with > > honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing > > Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice > > they cannot silence and cannot refute." > > > > "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five > > years. He can explain it to you." > > > > Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson21.htm > > > > And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb65.htm > > > > Comments on the related techniques of Susan Maneck: > > > > Juan Cole, February 13, 1999: > > "It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading > > Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the > > desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning, > > they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion." > > > > "I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled > with > > hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and > > tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning > > and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just > have > > shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and > > slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is > > about has anything at all to do with *universities*!" > > > > February 15, 1999: > > "Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to > > shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when > > why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better, since > > the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to > > keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her > > hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. And it then allows her > > to claim pretty much anything she wants to while seeming to > > have discredited her opponent. Further, she relies on the > > tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be > > supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By shrieking > > "slander" and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is > > able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates > > whatever the topic or content might be and that allows her to > > appear to win what is often a narrowly legalistic point or > > interpretation." > > > > "All of this is done, of course, in conjunction with her employing > > the more common Bahai techniques of intimidation and > > psychological demonization and terrorism." > > > > Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as garbage: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm > > > > Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as litter: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm > > > > This document at > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm > > > > See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, > > discusses related issues in his journal article "The > > Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": > > > > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > > > Also see: > > > > Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm > > > > Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm > > > > Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary > > Board > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 9:52 AM Subject: Re: "removed from the membership rolls" (Re: REVISED: --bahai-- Messages to uhj regarding their Technique) "Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. And not within the scope of a uhj that has blatantly and shamelessly perverted Baha'u'llah's Teachings.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s5n78b3lee651@corp.supernews.com... > Ha, ha, ha, ha.... > > My how desperate Bahai fundamentalists are.... > > In lieu of any official communication directly from the uhj, > describing what it imagines my offense might be and detailing > the passages in the Writings that permits such spiritual terrorism, > I am certainly not about to believe the claims and forgeries > of rabidly hateful and spiteful fellow Bahais like this person.... > > My soul and conscience are not under the control of the > pathetically dishonest and oppressive uhj, nor are the souls > of any of its other victims.... > > I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from > me directly on the matter. > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > wrote in message news:83dpqu$vnb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > Fred is not a member of the Baha'i Community. He was removed from the > > roles in February of 1999. The Baha'i ID that he displays on his > > website is not valid. > > > > His claim of membership in the Baha'i Community is false. > > > > This was confirmed in a reply to my inquiry to the national center's > > membership services. > > > > This was their reply: > > > > "Subject: Status of Fredrick Glaysher > > > > > > To: Mr. David Fiorito > > > > Dear Baha'i Friend, > > > > In response to your inquiry about the status of Mr. Fredrick Glaysher, > > the records of the Baha'i National Center reflect that Mr. Glaysher's > > name was removed from the membership rolls in February 1999, and he is > > not considered to be a member of the Baha'i Faith. > > > > With loving Baha'i greetings, > > > > ****** * ********* > > For the Office of the Secretary > > > > > > > > In article , > > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > > This file contains three messages: "to uhj 12-10-99," "to uhj 7-24- > > 1998," > > > and "The Bahai Technique": > > > > > > From: Patrick Henry > > > Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed > > > Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM > > > > > > Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights > > of > > > Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the > > > Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in > > > protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, > > > former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, > > > and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my > > > website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... > > > Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. > > > > > > I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card > > > may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj > > > or any of its underlings to the contrary. > > > > > > Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual > > > God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed > > > would never be violated in their religion. > > > > > > I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me > > directly > > > on the matter. > > > > > > I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; > > indeed, > > > the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending > > Baha'u'llah's > > > Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his > > > Revelation. > > > > > > -- > > > Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > (Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.) > > > From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations > > > Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... > > > Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > > > This is an automated acknowledgement. > > > > > > Your message regarding: > > > > > > Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed > > > > > > has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > From: Patrick Henry patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com > > > To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor > > ; > > > bahai-faith @ makelist.com > > > Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 > > > Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM > > > July 24,1998 > > > > > > Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: > > > > > > As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet > > > another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements > > > made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly > > > of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in > > > The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally > > > lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President > > > Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in > > Iran > > > would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the > > international > > > community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek > > > justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." > > > > > > The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation > > > of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, > > > always courting the President and other members of the government, > > > has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context > > > of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human > > > and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents > > as > > > I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, > > > available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine > > > Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai > > > Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at > > > Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many > > individuals, > > > Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within > > > the Bahai community and administration. > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm > > > > > > To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more > > > than a year and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications > > > Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat > > > twice now, along with the collusion of other Bahais, the creation of > > an > > > unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as > > > talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of > > > these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and > > > non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom > > > of Conscience": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is > > > approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the > > > BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private > > > Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of > > > discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by > > > many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in > > > that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under > > > Bahai-Discuss Archives. > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm > > > > > > Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA > > has > > > approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by > > > the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban > > for > > > more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding > > > talk.religion.bahai. > > > > > > The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and > > > religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot > > > but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai > > > administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. > > > > > > I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and > > > what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," > > if > > > you will, of Bahai censorship? > > > > > > -- > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > THE BAHAI TECHNIQUE: > > > > > > During the last several years or more a number of observers have noted > > > the common methods many Bahais use to avoid various issues or > > > discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: > > > > > > May 12, 1992: > > > "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of > > > the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I > > > have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [over 22]. The > > usual > > > stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience > > > in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of > > > criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak > > > honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual > > > life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of > > > unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, > > > which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the > > > person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire > > > control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him > > > pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the > > > Truth." > > > > > > Ron House, November 14, 1997: > > > "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that > > > there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and > > > others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so > > > much he says something intemperate, then point out > > > how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how > > > nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this > > > technique works, so I've been making a conscious > > > effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the > > > dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he > > > invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they > > > can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did > > > this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. > > > At any other time, they would overlook faults, as > > > Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode > > > they go for the jugular. Very sad." > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/House2.htm > > > > > > June 1998: > > > "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by > > > many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about > > > an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to > > > the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, > > > ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their > > > messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them > > > through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up > > > on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action > > > of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to > > > talk.religion.bahai." > > > "More than twenty different people on my web site have posted messages > > > explaining their experience with srb censorship yet many srb Bahais > > > NEVER address their concerns. Ignoring such charges will not make > > > them go away. NO ONE has to "try" to link the trb interest poll with > > > censorship on srb; the moderators themselves have done that by > > > suppressing droves of people for years. There are many people who > > > believe such suppression is part and parcel of the Bahai > > > community as it exists today. A YES vote need not necessarily > > > support such a belief. There are other reasons Bahais might vote > > > YES." > > > > > > Fran Baker, May 1998: > > > "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common > > > technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially > > > effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both > > > sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating > > > technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is > > > to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat > > > up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard > > > to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal > > > relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a group > > > acts this way. Very scary." > > > > > > Dr. Juan Cole, June 12, 1998: > > > "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my > > > professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very > > > technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to > > > unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified > > > threats of declaring him or her a CB to silence the individual, and > > > if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the > > gullibility > > > of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of > > > course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and > > > could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket." > > > "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been > > > enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility > > > with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy > > > to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside > > > world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization > > > ostensibly committed to tolerance!" > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Cole10.htm > > > > > > K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: > > > "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] > > > were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in > > > their condemnations of their fellow believers, I > > > would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i > > > affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the > > > preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling > > > dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan > > > Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've > > > "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some > > > awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not > > > character assassination by innuendo, what is?" > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson18.htm > > > > > > Gibro28W, October 12, 1998: > > > "In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, > > > is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out > > as > > > "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish > > > attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join > > > them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the > > > group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's > > > mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their > > > "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." > > > If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the > > > convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a > > > broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs > > > of its members in the first place." > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb73.htm > > > > > > Barthaman on September 14, 1998: > > > "Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned > > > by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and > > > dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider > > > their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too. > > > Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned > > > following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)-- > > > after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion? > > > Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is > > > why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while > > > some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding > > > a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on, > > > however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud. > > > Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next > > > dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend." > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb66.htm > > > > > > Juan Cole wrote, February 23, 1999: > > > "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to > > > hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they > > > will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." > > > > > > "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only > > > hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that > > > differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from > > > enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." > > > > > > "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon > > them > > > to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do > > not > > > fall silent." > > > > > > "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech > > about > > > the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You > > will > > > note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long- > > term > > > heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was > > > retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose > > > with the facts,'and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused > > of > > > all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been > > > backbitten by them." > > > > > > "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, > > > all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with > > > honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing > > > Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice > > > they cannot silence and cannot refute." > > > > > > "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five > > > years. He can explain it to you." > > > > > > Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson21.htm > > > > > > And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb65.htm > > > > > > Comments on the related techniques of Susan Maneck: > > > > > > Juan Cole, February 13, 1999: > > > "It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading > > > Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the > > > desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning, > > > they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion." > > > > > > "I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled > > with > > > hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and > > > tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning > > > and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just > > have > > > shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and > > > slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is > > > about has anything at all to do with *universities*!" > > > > > > February 15, 1999: > > > "Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to > > > shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when > > > why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better, since > > > the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to > > > keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her > > > hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. And it then allows her > > > to claim pretty much anything she wants to while seeming to > > > have discredited her opponent. Further, she relies on the > > > tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be > > > supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By shrieking > > > "slander" and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is > > > able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates > > > whatever the topic or content might be and that allows her to > > > appear to win what is often a narrowly legalistic point or > > > interpretation." > > > > > > "All of this is done, of course, in conjunction with her employing > > > the more common Bahai techniques of intimidation and > > > psychological demonization and terrorism." > > > > > > Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as garbage: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm > > > > > > Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as litter: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm > > > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm > > > > > > This document at > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm > > > > > > See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, > > > discusses related issues in his journal article "The > > > Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": > > > > > > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > > > > > Also see: > > > > > > Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm > > > > > > Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm > > > > > > Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary > > > Board > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm > > > > > > -- > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 10:11 AM Subject: Re: "removed from the membership rolls" (Re: REVISED: --bahai-- Messages to uhj regarding their Technique) Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message regarding: "removed from the membership rolls" (Re: REVISED: --bahai-- Messages to uhj regarding their Technique) has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. From ieco@quark.bwc.org Sat Dec 18 06:45:57 1999 Received: from [192.115.145.253] by (3.2) with ESMTP id MBA24E90E0030D820F3ABC07391FD12160; Sat Dec 18 06:45:38 1999 Received: from wagner.bwc.org by quark.bwc.org with SMTP id AA10128 (5.67b-Emil1.1/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 18 Dec 1999 16:43:32 +0200 Received: from coral.bwc.org (coral [10.1.0.21]) by wagner.bwc.org (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA23257 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 16:43:32 +0200 (IST) Received: by coral.bwc.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA28207; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 16:43:31 +0200 Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 16:43:31 +0200 From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations Message-Id: <199912181443.QAA28207@coral.bwc.org> Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... Apparently-To: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s5n78b3lee651@corp.supernews.com... > Ha, ha, ha, ha.... > > My how desperate Bahai fundamentalists are.... > > In lieu of any official communication directly from the uhj, > describing what it imagines my offense might be and detailing > the passages in the Writings that permits such spiritual terrorism, > I am certainly not about to believe the claims and forgeries > of rabidly hateful and spiteful fellow Bahais like this person.... > > My soul and conscience are not under the control of the > pathetically dishonest and oppressive uhj, nor are the souls > of any of its other victims.... > > I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from > me directly on the matter. > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > wrote in message news:83dpqu$vnb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > Fred is not a member of the Baha'i Community. He was removed from the > > roles in February of 1999. The Baha'i ID that he displays on his > > website is not valid. > > > > His claim of membership in the Baha'i Community is false. > > > > This was confirmed in a reply to my inquiry to the national center's > > membership services. > > > > This was their reply: > > > > "Subject: Status of Fredrick Glaysher > > > > > > To: Mr. David Fiorito > > > > Dear Baha'i Friend, > > > > In response to your inquiry about the status of Mr. Fredrick Glaysher, > > the records of the Baha'i National Center reflect that Mr. Glaysher's > > name was removed from the membership rolls in February 1999, and he is > > not considered to be a member of the Baha'i Faith. > > > > With loving Baha'i greetings, > > > > ****** * ********* > > For the Office of the Secretary > > > > > > > > In article , > > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > > This file contains three messages: "to uhj 12-10-99," "to uhj 7-24- > > 1998," > > > and "The Bahai Technique": > > > > > > From: Patrick Henry > > > Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed > > > Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM > > > > > > Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights > > of > > > Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the > > > Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in > > > protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, > > > former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, > > > and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my > > > website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... > > > Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. > > > > > > I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card > > > may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj > > > or any of its underlings to the contrary. > > > > > > Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual > > > God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed > > > would never be violated in their religion. > > > > > > I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me > > directly > > > on the matter. > > > > > > I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; > > indeed, > > > the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending > > Baha'u'llah's > > > Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his > > > Revelation. > > > > > > -- > > > Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > (Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.) > > > From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations > > > Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... > > > Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > > > This is an automated acknowledgement. > > > > > > Your message regarding: > > > > > > Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed > > > > > > has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > From: Patrick Henry patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com > > > To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor > > ; > > > bahai-faith @ makelist.com > > > Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 > > > Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM > > > July 24,1998 > > > > > > Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: > > > > > > As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet > > > another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements > > > made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly > > > of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in > > > The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally > > > lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President > > > Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in > > Iran > > > would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the > > international > > > community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek > > > justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." > > > > > > The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation > > > of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, > > > always courting the President and other members of the government, > > > has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context > > > of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human > > > and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents > > as > > > I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, > > > available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine > > > Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai > > > Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at > > > Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many > > individuals, > > > Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within > > > the Bahai community and administration. > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm > > > > > > To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more > > > than a year and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications > > > Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat > > > twice now, along with the collusion of other Bahais, the creation of > > an > > > unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as > > > talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of > > > these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and > > > non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom > > > of Conscience": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is > > > approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the > > > BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private > > > Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of > > > discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by > > > many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in > > > that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under > > > Bahai-Discuss Archives. > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm > > > > > > Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA > > has > > > approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by > > > the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban > > for > > > more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding > > > talk.religion.bahai. > > > > > > The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and > > > religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot > > > but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai > > > administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. > > > > > > I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and > > > what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," > > if > > > you will, of Bahai censorship? > > > > > > -- > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > THE BAHAI TECHNIQUE: > > > > > > During the last several years or more a number of observers have noted > > > the common methods many Bahais use to avoid various issues or > > > discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: > > > > > > May 12, 1992: > > > "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of > > > the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I > > > have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [over 22]. The > > usual > > > stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience > > > in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of > > > criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak > > > honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual > > > life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of > > > unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, > > > which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the > > > person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire > > > control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him > > > pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the > > > Truth." > > > > > > Ron House, November 14, 1997: > > > "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that > > > there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and > > > others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so > > > much he says something intemperate, then point out > > > how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how > > > nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this > > > technique works, so I've been making a conscious > > > effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the > > > dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he > > > invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they > > > can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did > > > this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. > > > At any other time, they would overlook faults, as > > > Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode > > > they go for the jugular. Very sad." > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/House2.htm > > > > > > June 1998: > > > "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by > > > many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about > > > an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to > > > the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, > > > ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their > > > messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them > > > through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up > > > on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action > > > of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to > > > talk.religion.bahai." > > > "More than twenty different people on my web site have posted messages > > > explaining their experience with srb censorship yet many srb Bahais > > > NEVER address their concerns. Ignoring such charges will not make > > > them go away. NO ONE has to "try" to link the trb interest poll with > > > censorship on srb; the moderators themselves have done that by > > > suppressing droves of people for years. There are many people who > > > believe such suppression is part and parcel of the Bahai > > > community as it exists today. A YES vote need not necessarily > > > support such a belief. There are other reasons Bahais might vote > > > YES." > > > > > > Fran Baker, May 1998: > > > "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common > > > technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially > > > effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both > > > sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating > > > technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is > > > to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat > > > up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard > > > to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal > > > relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a group > > > acts this way. Very scary." > > > > > > Dr. Juan Cole, June 12, 1998: > > > "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my > > > professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very > > > technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to > > > unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified > > > threats of declaring him or her a CB to silence the individual, and > > > if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the > > gullibility > > > of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of > > > course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and > > > could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket." > > > "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been > > > enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility > > > with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy > > > to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside > > > world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization > > > ostensibly committed to tolerance!" > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Cole10.htm > > > > > > K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: > > > "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] > > > were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in > > > their condemnations of their fellow believers, I > > > would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i > > > affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the > > > preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling > > > dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan > > > Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've > > > "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some > > > awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not > > > character assassination by innuendo, what is?" > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson18.htm > > > > > > Gibro28W, October 12, 1998: > > > "In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, > > > is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out > > as > > > "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish > > > attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join > > > them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the > > > group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's > > > mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their > > > "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." > > > If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the > > > convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a > > > broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs > > > of its members in the first place." > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb73.htm > > > > > > Barthaman on September 14, 1998: > > > "Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned > > > by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and > > > dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider > > > their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too. > > > Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned > > > following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)-- > > > after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion? > > > Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is > > > why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while > > > some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding > > > a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on, > > > however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud. > > > Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next > > > dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend." > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb66.htm > > > > > > Juan Cole wrote, February 23, 1999: > > > "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to > > > hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they > > > will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." > > > > > > "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only > > > hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that > > > differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from > > > enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." > > > > > > "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon > > them > > > to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do > > not > > > fall silent." > > > > > > "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech > > about > > > the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You > > will > > > note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long- > > term > > > heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was > > > retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose > > > with the facts,'and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused > > of > > > all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been > > > backbitten by them." > > > > > > "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, > > > all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with > > > honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing > > > Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice > > > they cannot silence and cannot refute." > > > > > > "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five > > > years. He can explain it to you." > > > > > > Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson21.htm > > > > > > And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb65.htm > > > > > > Comments on the related techniques of Susan Maneck: > > > > > > Juan Cole, February 13, 1999: > > > "It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading > > > Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the > > > desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning, > > > they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion." > > > > > > "I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled > > with > > > hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and > > > tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning > > > and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just > > have > > > shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and > > > slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is > > > about has anything at all to do with *universities*!" > > > > > > February 15, 1999: > > > "Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to > > > shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when > > > why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better, since > > > the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to > > > keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her > > > hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. And it then allows her > > > to claim pretty much anything she wants to while seeming to > > > have discredited her opponent. Further, she relies on the > > > tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be > > > supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By shrieking > > > "slander" and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is > > > able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates > > > whatever the topic or content might be and that allows her to > > > appear to win what is often a narrowly legalistic point or > > > interpretation." > > > > > > "All of this is done, of course, in conjunction with her employing > > > the more common Bahai techniques of intimidation and > > > psychological demonization and terrorism." > > > > > > Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as garbage: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm > > > > > > Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as litter: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm > > > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm > > > > > > This document at > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm > > > > > > See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, > > > discusses related issues in his journal article "The > > > Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": > > > > > > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > > > > > Also see: > > > > > > Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm > > > > > > Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm > > > > > > Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary > > > Board > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm > > > > > > -- > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > ---------- From: The.Library.of.Virginia@vsla.edu[SMTP:The.Library.of.Virginia@vsla.edu] Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 8:28 AM Subject: Paul Johnson's e-mail address Paul Johnson's new e-mail address is pauljo@cstone.net Your message has been forwarded. You do not need to resend it. Please update your contact list and use the new address in the future. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving BAHAI Stalin Medal Thank you, Michael. If I've been awarded it, I shall proudly wear the Bahai Stalin Medal.... I would consider such ignominious vindictiveness the greatest achievement and honor of my Bahai life.... providing the uhj has sunk so low, a fact which I have not had confirmed by the uhj itself.... As Abdul-Baha, however, makes clear, the integrity of one's conscience and belief in Baha'u'llah are not dependent upon his servants, including the nine totalitarians of Mt Carmel: "Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. -- Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Michael McKenny wrote in message news:83is19$s3$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > > Congratulations, Frederick. > It is a high testimony to receive a medal from Stalin. > As to the dictatorship's secrecy on the awarding of this medal, well, > it is easy to understand why they'd keep it hidden. When they began this > practise by notifying me I'd been awarded such a medal, I communicated > this to Baha'i cyberspace and the consequent weeks of discussion did little > to increase the esteem in which the Great Leadership is held. > May today find you very well, may tomorrow treat you even more kindly > and may the new millennium see the very rapid triumph within Baha'i of that > liberal-democratic attitude which is worth a thousand Stalinist UHJs. > All the Best, > Michael > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 8:31 AM Subject: Re: "removed from the membership rolls" (Re: REVISED: --bahai-- Messages to uhj regarding their Technique) <> ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 8:33 AM To: K. Paul Johnson Subject: removed from membership roles.... FYI --- Ha, ha, ha, ha.... My how desperate Bahai fundamentalists are.... In lieu of any official communication directly from the uhj, describing what it imagines my offense might be and detailing the passages in the Writings that permits such spiritual terrorism, I am certainly not about to believe the claims and forgeries of rabidly hateful and spiteful fellow Bahais like this person.... My soul and conscience are not under the control of the pathetically dishonest and oppressive uhj, nor are the souls of any of its other victims.... I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:83dpqu$vnb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Fred is not a member of the Baha'i Community. He was removed from the > roles in February of 1999. The Baha'i ID that he displays on his > website is not valid. > > His claim of membership in the Baha'i Community is false. > > This was confirmed in a reply to my inquiry to the national center's > membership services. > > This was their reply: > > "Subject: Status of Fredrick Glaysher > > > To: Mr. David Fiorito > > Dear Baha'i Friend, > > In response to your inquiry about the status of Mr. Fredrick Glaysher, > the records of the Baha'i National Center reflect that Mr. Glaysher's > name was removed from the membership rolls in February 1999, and he is > not considered to be a member of the Baha'i Faith. > > With loving Baha'i greetings, > > ****** * ********* > For the Office of the Secretary > > > > In article , > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > This file contains three messages: "to uhj 12-10-99," "to uhj 7-24- > 1998," > > and "The Bahai Technique": > > > > From: Patrick Henry > > Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed > > Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM > > > > Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights > of > > Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the > > Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in > > protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, > > former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, > > and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my > > website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... > > Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. > > > > I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card > > may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj > > or any of its underlings to the contrary. > > > > Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual > > God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed > > would never be violated in their religion. > > > > I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me > directly > > on the matter. > > > > I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; > indeed, > > the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending > Baha'u'llah's > > Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his > > Revelation. > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > (Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.) > > From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations > > Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... > > Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > This is an automated acknowledgement. > > > > Your message regarding: > > > > Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed > > > > has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > From: Patrick Henry patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com > > To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor > ; > > bahai-faith @ makelist.com > > Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 > > Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM > > July 24,1998 > > > > Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: > > > > As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet > > another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements > > made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly > > of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in > > The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally > > lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President > > Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in > Iran > > would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the > international > > community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek > > justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." > > > > The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation > > of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, > > always courting the President and other members of the government, > > has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context > > of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human > > and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents > as > > I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, > > available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine > > Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai > > Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at > > Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many > individuals, > > Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within > > the Bahai community and administration. > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm > > > > To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more > > than a year and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications > > Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat > > twice now, along with the collusion of other Bahais, the creation of > an > > unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as > > talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of > > these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and > > non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom > > of Conscience": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is > > approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the > > BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private > > Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of > > discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by > > many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in > > that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under > > Bahai-Discuss Archives. > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm > > > > Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA > has > > approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by > > the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban > for > > more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding > > talk.religion.bahai. > > > > The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and > > religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot > > but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai > > administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. > > > > I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and > > what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," > if > > you will, of Bahai censorship? > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > THE BAHAI TECHNIQUE: > > > > During the last several years or more a number of observers have noted > > the common methods many Bahais use to avoid various issues or > > discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: > > > > May 12, 1992: > > "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of > > the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I > > have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [over 22]. The > usual > > stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience > > in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of > > criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak > > honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual > > life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of > > unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, > > which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the > > person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire > > control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him > > pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the > > Truth." > > > > Ron House, November 14, 1997: > > "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that > > there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and > > others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so > > much he says something intemperate, then point out > > how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how > > nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this > > technique works, so I've been making a conscious > > effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the > > dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he > > invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they > > can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did > > this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. > > At any other time, they would overlook faults, as > > Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode > > they go for the jugular. Very sad." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/House2.htm > > > > June 1998: > > "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by > > many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about > > an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to > > the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, > > ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their > > messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them > > through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up > > on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action > > of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to > > talk.religion.bahai." > > "More than twenty different people on my web site have posted messages > > explaining their experience with srb censorship yet many srb Bahais > > NEVER address their concerns. Ignoring such charges will not make > > them go away. NO ONE has to "try" to link the trb interest poll with > > censorship on srb; the moderators themselves have done that by > > suppressing droves of people for years. There are many people who > > believe such suppression is part and parcel of the Bahai > > community as it exists today. A YES vote need not necessarily > > support such a belief. There are other reasons Bahais might vote > > YES." > > > > Fran Baker, May 1998: > > "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common > > technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially > > effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both > > sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating > > technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is > > to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat > > up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard > > to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal > > relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a group > > acts this way. Very scary." > > > > Dr. Juan Cole, June 12, 1998: > > "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my > > professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very > > technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to > > unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified > > threats of declaring him or her a CB to silence the individual, and > > if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the > gullibility > > of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of > > course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and > > could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket." > > "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been > > enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility > > with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy > > to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside > > world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization > > ostensibly committed to tolerance!" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Cole10.htm > > > > K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: > > "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] > > were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in > > their condemnations of their fellow believers, I > > would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i > > affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the > > preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling > > dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan > > Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've > > "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some > > awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not > > character assassination by innuendo, what is?" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson18.htm > > > > Gibro28W, October 12, 1998: > > "In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, > > is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out > as > > "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish > > attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join > > them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the > > group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's > > mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their > > "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." > > If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the > > convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a > > broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs > > of its members in the first place." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb73.htm > > > > Barthaman on September 14, 1998: > > "Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned > > by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and > > dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider > > their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too. > > Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned > > following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)-- > > after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion? > > Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is > > why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while > > some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding > > a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on, > > however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud. > > Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next > > dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend." > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb66.htm > > > > Juan Cole wrote, February 23, 1999: > > "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to > > hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they > > will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." > > > > "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only > > hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that > > differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from > > enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." > > > > "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon > them > > to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do > not > > fall silent." > > > > "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech > about > > the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You > will > > note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long- > term > > heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was > > retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose > > with the facts,'and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused > of > > all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been > > backbitten by them." > > > > "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, > > all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with > > honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing > > Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice > > they cannot silence and cannot refute." > > > > "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five > > years. He can explain it to you." > > > > Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson21.htm > > > > And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb65.htm > > > > Comments on the related techniques of Susan Maneck: > > > > Juan Cole, February 13, 1999: > > "It is a very, very, very weird religion. And if anyone is reading > > Susan Maneck's absolutely bone-chilling screeds on the > > desirability of Heresy Trials and carefulness in Shunning, > > they are seeing what it is like at the core of the religion." > > > > "I really am sorry for them and her, since they seem sort of filled > with > > hate and quite paranoid, yet say they are preaching love, unity and > > tolerance. Susan will say, 'may your abdomen be split by lightning > > and your guts fall out you filthy heretic whom I wish I could just > have > > shunned and buried', and then she'll sign herself "warmest" and > > slander a university by adding it to her sig line. As if what she is > > about has anything at all to do with *universities*!" > > > > February 15, 1999: > > "Ms. Maneck's approach appears to me to be always to > > shunt the discussion off or back to who said what where when > > why how and so on.... The farther back in time the better, since > > the person's memory, being human, is bound to be unable to > > keep up or to have stocked the evidence needed on his or her > > hard drive or find it on dejanews.com. And it then allows her > > to claim pretty much anything she wants to while seeming to > > have discredited her opponent. Further, she relies on the > > tactics of demagoguery knowing they usually prevail and will be > > supported by other fundamentalist Bahais. By shrieking > > "slander" and referring to others' opinions as "garbage," she is > > able to create an emotional atmosphere that essentially negates > > whatever the topic or content might be and that allows her to > > appear to win what is often a narrowly legalistic point or > > interpretation." > > > > "All of this is done, of course, in conjunction with her employing > > the more common Bahai techniques of intimidation and > > psychological demonization and terrorism." > > > > Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as garbage: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm > > > > Maneck's scholarly reference to others' opinions as litter: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm > > > > This document at > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm > > > > See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, > > discusses related issues in his journal article "The > > Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": > > > > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > > > Also see: > > > > Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm > > > > Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm > > > > Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary > > Board > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 8:20 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal From: "macleod" Date: 1999/12/20 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai Dear Fred, It seems we may have to accept that you have had membership of a rather exclusive club thrust upon you. Would you prefer congratulation or commiseration? Of one thing I am sure - just as registering on the rolls is an administrative triviality of no significance compared to the internal acceptance of Baha'u'llah so deregistration is an administrative triviality. Sooner or later we will all be 'summoned to a reckoning' and I don't think the divine assayer will regard membership rolls as evidence of whether you should be 'considered as a Baha'i'. Cheers John MacLeod (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c945727789.11022.0.nnrp-01.c2de8324@news.demon.co.uk%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 11:35 AM Subject: Re: "removed from the membership rolls" (Re: REVISED: --bahai-- Messages to uhj regarding their Technique) wrote in message news:83o57h$rdo$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > If he genuinely did not know then I apologize unreservedly. > > Now that he knows he should no longer make the claim or he will be > lying. I'm certainly not about to accept slander of fanatic, fundamentalist Bahais, full of hate and animosity, against the integrity of my faith in Baha'u'llah, nor any of their claims, clearly designed to discredit my charges of relentless censorship by the ujh and its lackies.... Despite their lies, I am a member of the Bahai faith. Again, my membership ID card may be found on my website. And I have never heard otherwise from a Bahai institution. I, for one, intend to enjoy the Christmas vacation with my family and shall not spend it on Usenet refuting the slander of my fellow Bahais.... May God bless you all in this season of joy and peace.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 11:43 AM Subject: The Bahai Initiation Ceremony <> ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 3:58 PM Subject: Re: How uhj treats Bahais "Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 7:56 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed From: bn872@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael McKenny) Date: 1999/12/26 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai Greetings, Susan. What other cases are there, other than the one of Michael McKenny? As I understand it, this was keenly discussed at the time, precisely because it was the first time this was done. Have there been others since? The point is, of course, that when authority takes action against its critics it adds legitimacy to those critics. Take a look at alt.conspiracy. Now, if Clinton took away US citizenship from these people, he'd be giving them legitimacy, and demonstrating a greater lack of judgement than merely ejaculating on Monica's dress. Liberal democracy is correct in allowing for freedom of speech. By emulating such as Stalin, the Baha'i leadership has succeeded only in underlining the unpleasant nature of the cultic entity it so much seeks to head. It will be fascinating to see how the future unfolds. To Baha'i Glasnost, Michael Smaneck (smaneck@aol.com) writes: >>I must admit I find it hard to believe that the interests of the Cause >>absolutely demanded rigidly drawing the line of demarcation in Fred's >>case. > > Dear John, > > I would not call drawing a line in Fred's case to be a sign of rigidity. On the > contrary were a line not drawn in his case it would certainly be difficult to > justify why it was drawn in others cases like Michael McKenny. Even most of the > CBs have not gone so far as he has. -- "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c84516b$1ul$1@freenet9.carleton.ca%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 8:03 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal From: bn872@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael McKenny) Date: 1999/12/22 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai Greetings, Brian. Well, for starters, both imposed the rule of a one party state, whose leaders held meetings behind closed doors with the vision of taking over the world. Both viewed the expression of disagreement with the decrees of leadership to be illegal and maintained a vast apparatus to report on the thoughts of the population. Both harrassed those who dared to speak against official decrees, maintained strict censorship on publications, used quite a heavy dose of newspeak and encouraged scientists and other intellectuals to operate within the framework of official ideology. It should also be noted that the complete works of Lenin were published, that Soviet women were not legally prohibited from rising to the top and that Soviet concepts and procedures allowed Soviet leadership to correct previous erroneous policies, contrary to the fundamentalist interpretations of the current UHJ. To the Future, Michael "Dr. Brian F. Walker" (dr.walker@fsandp.com) writes: > > :) I have lived in the Soviet Union, under communist rule - only for a year, true, > but at least I have experienced at first hand such a regime. I have yet to see which > concepts and procedures can in any way be likened to those of the Soviet Union, but > would be happy to discuss what your perceptions. > >> Thrive ever, -- "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c83qob7$djd$1@freenet9.carleton.ca%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 8:07 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal From: nima_hazini@my-deja.com Date: 1999/12/24 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai In article <83tu13$u65$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > It would seem to me that Baha'i Administration is meant to be a > "closed" system in that consultation requires privacy. Outside > observers could ruin the atmosphere of the deliberations and cause the > participants to become self concious. It could even lead to show- > boating in order to look good to the community. The administrative > body would then become a collection of personalities rather than a > single entity because the community would see individuals rather than > the collecticve. David, You just made Michael's case for him by admitting the collectivist subtext of Baha'i administrative modus operandi and political culture. This is a thoroughly Leninist style of reasoning what you provide above. and then rank-and-file Baha'is wonder why thinking people are going to object to this sort of absolutist thinking. We live in a world of individuals, not amorphous collectives helmed in by vanguard institutions. Which is why liberal democracy as a system works, and history has proven that the others do not, whether they be religious or temporal. If I could recommend any book to religionists (of any creed) with millenarian or totalizing agendas (be they immentists or otherwise), it would be Karl Mannheim's _Ideology & Utopia_. Read this book and try to see the dangerous flaws with such thinking leads in the world. cheers, Nima Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c83ufsr$ahr$1@nnrp1.deja.com%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 8:09 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal From: nima_hazini@my-deja.com Date: 1999/12/25 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai "David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila" wrote: > But how can it be a flaw if it is Divinely ordained? David because something is purportedly ordained by the "Divine" does not mean it is not flawed. After all look at the world around you. How can you can account for the flaws in creation which were crafted apparently by a perfect Creator? The question is an open ended one, of course. Yet, we cannot escape the truths of history. History has proven time and time again that absolute truth claims ultimately lead to some form of fascism (whether spiritual or temporal). Baha'is just have to come to terms with the fact that the system that they currently live under is fundamentally flawed on many different levels, and it was the movement of history and facing the various contradictions history presented that forced the situation upon the Baha'i religion. For you that there is nothing wrong with the current Baha'i model is a matter of personal faith and belief, yet the facts present themselves differently if one is unbiased enough to look. Several years ago I would have thought and responded in exactly the same manner as you, but then a series of sobering experiences opened my eyes to things I now wish I never knew about. The truth shall set you free, although it will p&% you off... Nima Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c842h2d$qve$1@nnrp1.deja.com%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 8:12 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal From: nima_hazini@my-deja.com Date: 1999/12/24 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai >I > In the administrative order of the Baha'i Faith there is no money to >be made, no perks to earn or take or gain, no power over other people. Unless you are the Secretary-General of the US NSA and your name happens to be Robert Henderson. The man is awarded well over a U$100,000.00+ salary from the coffers of the national fund, which does not include the untold number of perquisites he recieves as well (i.e. travel, the home he lives in Evanston overlooking Lake Michigan, wardrobe, ad nauseum). And as far as power over other people is concerned: among former US Baha'i National Center staff Henderson is well known as a power-crazed and dangerous sociopath (a la Stalin) who seeks and has the proverbial dirt on everyone (including House members) and will stop at nothing to eliminate anyone who crosses him. While in theory or on the grassroots level the Baha'i AO might function in the manner you describe, in the upper tiers it is far from it. Soviet and Orwellian is perhaps the best characterization. regards, Nima Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c83ugjm$avf$1@nnrp1.deja.com%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 8:15 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal From: bn872@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael McKenny) Date: 1999/12/23 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai Greetings, Brian. You wrote: > :) Yes, indeed. Some of the most boring work I have ever had the misfortune to be > confronted with. But give it time, Michael, and we will have it all. Lenin died a generation after Baha'u'llah died. Baha'u'llah died in 1892. We are just about to enter the 21st Century. How much more time would you like? It is only self serving fundamentalists who are keeping concealed the majority of the Scriptures of Baha'i, as the complete works of Baha'u'llah would provide the religion with greater potential for a wider spectrum of views than now exists and do more to disclose the narrowness of insisting on fundamentalist interpretations. To the Future, Michael -- "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c83u3jv$oa$1@freenet9.carleton.ca%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 8:14 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal From: bn872@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael McKenny) Date: 1999/12/23 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai Greetings, Brian. You wrote: > > Michael McKenny wrote: > >> Well, for starters, both imposed the rule of a one party state > > Well yes, Well, thank you for admitting it. Yes, this is the crux of the problem. In theory, you have one party line, one authoritative leadership dragging the population to fundamentalist extremes of ideology that would have made Stalin blush. The party line is that the collective leadership is guided by a single omnipotent perfect, benevolent deity, cannot err, and must be obeyed without question, after the decree has been communicated to the masses. All you had to do in Stalin's day was obey him and keep any opinion as to his actual errors an intimate one. Even he did not pretend that God made him infallible. The point is that if you wish to define Russia by communist ideology or America by the Republican line, then, you facilitate the continued hold on power by those of that persuasion, especially if you have the great leadership exiling or executing the most outspoken and articulate members of other viewpoints. The Baha'i Faith today, as the Soviet Union at the time of Stalin, is in the power of those who are perpetuating the rule of one colour of human thought, one group of individuals exercising rule by committee, by means of the assertion that this communist (fundamentalist Baha'i) colour is the rainbow. This is even more glaring in the Baha'i case as Baha'i is allegedly meant to provide a framework for all of humanity, regardless of class, while communist theory calls for the elimination of class and sees certain classes as avowed enemies. Baha'i, in theory, sees no enemies, no evil, although, the current UHJ has not acted and spoken as much in this Baha'i way, as they could have. It is so much easier to present things in terms of Wreckers of the State, etc., than to admit error and legislate openly what is required in modern, as opposed to Dark, ages. More later... To the Future, Michael -- "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c83u2f3$89$1@freenet9.carleton.ca%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 8:17 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal From: bn872@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael McKenny) Date: 1999/12/25 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai Greetings, Brian. You wrote: > Well yes, but in the SU if you disagreed you were in severe trouble. In the > Baha'i Faith, if youi disagree you can continue to voice your opinions AND > stay a Baha'i. Yes, I know you are one of the exceptions, but you did voice > your difference of opinion exceptionally. Hmmm. Do you mean exceptionally well? Do you mean it's okay to disagree, so long as you don't voice your opinion in a convincing manner, so long as you don't articulate how the UHJ can follow essential principles in a liberal democratic manner, rather than trash principles in slavish idolatry of fundamentalist ideology? You know the hallmark of decent ethical systems is how they handle the voicing of exceptionally well expressed opinions contrary to the party line, how they tolerate articulate views that question even the most basic of issues. Now, here in Canada we have some guys who want to break up the Canadian federation as it currently exists, take our largest province out of the country and set up an idependent Quebec. Have we responded in the manner of the UHJ by taking away the Canadian citizenship of such people? On the contrary, in this democracy these guys have been elected to govern the province of Quebec and hold some fifty seats in the federal parliament. This trumps the Soviet methods of the UHJ which censored the Service of Women paper, set its Counsellors on the likes of Juan Cole, harrassed him and others, and in the exceptional case of Michael McKenny, who refused all hints and pressures to resign, booted him out. You are unconvincing when you assert there is no true comparison of the theory and modus operandi of Soviet and Baha'i a la current UHJ systems. I look forward to a renewal within the Baha'i Faith in the dawning millennium that reaches above the cultish exclusivist fundamentalism of Doug Martin and the boys to something really worthy of being called universal. To the Future, Michael -- "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c841au0$k8o$1@freenet9.carleton.ca%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 8:18 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal From: bn872@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael McKenny) Date: 1999/12/26 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai Greetings, Brian. You wrote: >> Both harrassed those who dared to speak against official decrees, > > SU yes, but AFAIK (and have experienced) speaking out as a Baha'i has not > led to harrassment. And, what was it took place as a consequence of Talisman, a dinky e-mail list that had "Baha'is" flaming their own scholars, Counsellors paying a visit to these scholars, and pressure for those who spoke out to admit they were not Baha'is? What is your definition of harrassment? If you mean that you personally did not receive such flames and such visits from Counsellors (and against which decree of the UHJ did you speak out?), well, many a good communist in Stalin's day could make the claim that as far as he experienced, personally, to the limits of his own knowledge, there was nothing at all wrong with the Soviet Union; he was doing fine; he was okay; he wasn't being bothered for his expressed views that life was fine under the Great Leader. To the Future, Michael -- "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/dnquery.xp?search=thread&svcclass=dnserver&recnum=%3c8452ln$2ae$1@freenet9.carleton.ca%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/%5bST_rn%3dmd%5d/ ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 7:41 AM To: Avenarius Subject: Re: Cole on infallibility Please do not "cc" me. ----- Original Message ----- From: Avenarius To: Cc: Martina Donovalová ; Nouranis ; Andrea Poloková ; Lenka Bosma <104702.1421@compuserve.com>; Venus & Omeed Jahanpour ; Zarin Buckingham ; Michael Frontczak ; Richard Sherwood ; Frederick Glaysher ; Steve Scholl ; Juan Cole ; Rama Reddy Sent: Sunday, December 26, 1999 9:48 PM Subject: Cole on infallibility > Re the recent discussion on infallibility: it seems that even a different > interpretation of Abdu'l-Baha's original ideas about the Universal House of > Justice is possible. An excerpt from Juan Cole's article 'The Baha'i Faith > in America as Panopticon, 1963--1997': > > << Many, perhaps most American Baha'is believe that the House of Justice in > Haifa is infallible in all its doings. This belief derives from a particular > understanding of the Arabic word employed by `Abdu'l-Baha to describe the > institution's authority, ma`sum, (which in the original means morally > immaculate rather than "infallible" in the Roman Catholic sense). Many > believers ignore Shoghi Effendi's limitation of the sphere of > "infallibility" of the House of Justice to legislation, which denied it the > authority to engage in authoritative scriptural interpretation (Rabbani > 1969:148-151). With the end of the guardianship, conservative Baha'is are > eager to invest the House of Justice with de facto interpretive authority, > and the House of Justice has come out vigorously against "secular humanism" > and "materialist" methodologies in academic scholarship, which would appear > to be interpretive issues (UHJ 1997). Many Baha'is believe they must > subordinate their individual consciences to UHJ decisions and obey it > implicitly, a value strongly at odds with American individualism. Baha'i > liberals in the West frequently demur from this view in private, but they > appear to be increasingly a minority. Belief in infallibility can act as a > powerful control mechanism. A former British Baha'i describes how a vote at > a national convention was overturned in the late 1970s when Philip > Hainsworth, a member of the U.K. N.S.A., asked the delegates if they really > desired to oppose the wishes of the infallible Universal House of Justice > (private communication, Feb. 1997). Although national spiritual assemblies > are not considered infallible, many American Baha'is view all Baha'i > institutions as "divinely guided" under certain circumstances. Belief in > divine guidance makes Baha'is especially susceptible to authoritarian > control techniques on the part of Baha'i administrators, and inclines them > to a "blame the victim" mindset wherein they condemn vocal victims of > repression as a source of disunity (cf. Shupe 1995; Collins 1991). >> > > The Rabbani reference is to the 1969 edition of Shoghi Effendi's _The World > Order of Baha'u'llah"_ to which I don't have access right now and so I can't > check the passage. The UHJ reference is to a letter of July 20, 1997, > addressed to Susan Maneck. > > > > Alex. > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 9:25 AM Subject: Re: Congratulations on Receiving Stalin Medal It seems to me that what the uhj and its apologists are doing to me and all its victims, for more than a decade now, is essentially what David Horowitz, author of Hating Whitey and Other Progressive Causes (1999), observes regarding the tactics of the Black Panthers, their murdering of his friend Betty, and their then slandering of Betty's reputation and character: "Why deflect guilt to the victim or anyone else, unless one is guilty oneself?" -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Michael McKenny wrote in message news:8452ln$2ae$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > > Greetings, Brian. > You wrote: > >> Both harrassed those who dared to speak against official decrees, > > > > SU yes, but AFAIK (and have experienced) speaking out as a Baha'i has not > > led to harrassment. > And, what was it took place as a consequence of Talisman, a dinky e-mail > list that had "Baha'is" flaming their own scholars, Counsellors paying a > visit to these scholars, and pressure for those who spoke out to admit they > were not Baha'is? What is your definition of harrassment? > If you mean that you personally did not receive such flames and such > visits from Counsellors (and against which decree of the UHJ did you speak > out?), well, many a good communist in Stalin's day could make the claim > that as far as he experienced, personally, to the limits of his own > knowledge, there was nothing at all wrong with the Soviet Union; he was > doing fine; he was okay; he wasn't being bothered for his expressed views > that life was fine under the Great Leader. > To the Future, > Michael > > > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 11:10 AM Subject: Re: +++Bahai+++ Technique of uhj "Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 11:22 AM Subject: Re: Fred's Membership Issues Thanks, Mirele, for speaking up, as you have occasionally in the past. Your experience with scientology provides you with an unusual, interesting perspective on the Bahai faith, one others in Bahai related newsgroups might benefit from. Once again, you raise a number of compelling questions that the non-Bahai observer ought to find worth considering.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Mirele wrote in message news:843ih5$2b22@edrn.newsguy.com... > In article <83qqvl$ntn$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, dfiorito@my-deja.com says... > > > >I do not - CAN NOT - question your faith or your beliefs. Nor do I > >wish to discredit your charges. All I want to do is to clear up one > >fact. Whether you know it or not, you are no longer considered a > >member of the Baha'i Community. You may have a card but it is no > >longer valid. > > My question to you, dfiorito, is: How come YOU know and Fred Glaysher > apparently does not know? As an outsider looking in, this appears to me to be > rather tacky behaviour at best, and at worst, it's inhumane. > > > >> > >> Despite their lies, I am a member of the Bahai faith. Again, my > >membership > >> ID card may be found on my website. And I have never heard otherwise > >> from a Bahai institution. > > > > > >This is no lie. Any Baha'i who wishes to confirm what I learned can do > >so by sending Fred's name and Baha'i ID to National Membership services > >through www.usbnc.org and you can get the same information that I did. > > WHY WASN'T FRED TOLD!?!?!?! > > Frankly, this is appalling. > > I would address myself to those of you who call yourselves Baha'i. This kind of > behaviour is NOT appropriate. I have had dealings for five years now with the > Church of $cientology, and to be honest, I never thought I'd see the day > when the "officialdom" of the Baha'i Faith would rank up there with the > $cientology leadership. In fact, I would argue that the Baha'i Faith > "officialdom" are worse than the $cientologists--because at least $cientology > lets people know that they've been "declared" (or kicked out of $cn). > > What kind of fear motivates people to do such a thing (drop a person from the > rolls of the organization) and then NEGLECT to tell them? This is truly > outrageous. > > > > >I still maintain that the points you make would be more credible if you > >admit you are no longer a Baha'i (in the registered sense), take a > >moment to reflect, and actually enter in to a dialogue about these > >issues. Others have done this and seem to be gaining more credibility > >from civility than from fanaticism. > > I think that it would be appropriate for whoever's in charge to explain why this > happened--but then again, from what I've read over the months and years on this > newsgroup and a.r.b, I don't expect that to happen. > > Let me rent you a clue, Baha'is--your "leadership" reminds me of the > $cientologists. This is not a characterization that any legitimate religious > group should aspire to. I would meditate upon this... > > Deana Holmes > mirele@xmission.com > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 4:54 PM Subject: Re: Fred's Membership Issues "The Bahai Technique": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:848708$d8n$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <843ih5$2b22@edrn.newsguy.com>, > Mirele (mirele@xmission.com) wrote: > > > My question to you, dfiorito, is: How come YOU know and Fred Glaysher > > apparently does not know? As an outsider looking in, this appears to > >me to be > > rather tacky behaviour at best, and at worst, it's inhumane. > > My motive is simple. Fred was making a claim of membership in the > Baha'i Faith yet his posts have done nothing but criticize Baha'is and > the Divinely ordained institutions that administer the affairs of the > community. His statements have gone beyond dissent. His accusation > that the Universal House of Justice plotted a murder goes beyond the > bounds of reason (other dissenters have even said so themselves). > > Fred is carrying out a vendetta on the Baha'i Administration. Now > dissent is not the problem. As I have said numerous times folks like > Ron House, Nima, Paul Johnson, etc. have expressed ideas that could be > considered dissent. But each of them has done so with respect and > tact. They are all honest about their status in relation to the Baha'i > Community - whether they are a member or not. > > Fred has always maintained that he is a member of the Baha'i Faith. > Whether a religion should maintain a list of members is not the issue > here (though you will find that this is a common practice in nearly all > communities of Faith). The issue here is was Fred being honest with us. > > The Baha'i Community has a mechanism for all Baha'is to be able to > verify the status of those who claim to be Baha'is. The reason for > this is that those who would seek to damage the Faith have sometimes > posed as Baha'is in hope of getting inside the community and damage > it. It is also for the protection of some Baha'is who escaped from > Iran and are often the target of fanatics who seek to harm them. Also > because we have no clergy someone who claims to be a Baha'i can try to > speak as a member and slander the Faith. > > Because Fred made the claim and any Baha'i can verify this claim I did > so. Not to silence him. Rather, I want him to be on the level with > us. If he is not a Baha'i then he should say so rather than parading > around telling everyone he is a Baha'i while slamming the Faith. I say > slam away but be honest about it. I welcome the criticism but only > when the one who posts it is being honest about it. > > I don't know if Fred has ever been contacted by the Baha'i > Administration. He did get an email from someone in the Administration > and he called it threatening and warned the Administration never to > harass him ever again. Someone posted that email in one of these > threads and it is in no way a threatening letter. Any way given the > fact that whenever Fred is approached he threatens that he will sue > because he is being harassed is it any suprise that he may not have > been contacted. But who knows if he was or not. That is not what this > is all about. > > This is about Fred making a claim which is no shown to be false. > > What he does with it is his business. > > One last point that you bring up - "officialdom". I think you will > find it in all Faiths with the possible exception of Unitarianism but > its is there too. > > Peace, > > Dave > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 5:57 AM Subject: Re: Fred's Membership Issues It seems to me that what the uhj and its apologists are doing to me and all its victims, for more than a decade now, is essentially what David Horowitz, author of Hating Whitey and Other Progressive Causes (1999), observes regarding the tactics of the Black Panthers, their murdering of his friend Betty, and their then slandering of Betty's reputation and character: "Why deflect guilt to the victim or anyone else, unless one is guilty oneself?" -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 5:59 AM Subject: Re: Fred's Membership Issues "Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 7:21 AM Subject: 13,000+ hits - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience As talk.religion.bahai approaches its first anniversary, the end of the century and millennium records over 13,000 hits of no interest in freedom of speech and conscience among non-Bahais and my fellow Bahais.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_henry@my-deja.com] Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 11:18 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Bahais Begin New Millennium by Lying OR Inflated Bahai Statistics given to Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- idx.html "Bahai's 6,764,000" -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 6:33 AM To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com Subject: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica FYI --- Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as Latin America are often exagerrated. cheers, Nima In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote regard Washington Post article: > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > idx.html > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 6:34 AM Subject: Re: Bahais Begin New Millennium by Lying OR Inflated Bahai Statistics given to Washington Post I've emailed the Encyclopedia Britannica regarding these false Bahai membership statistics. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:84p05h$b2i$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. > There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years > about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number > is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the > global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as > Latin America are often exagerrated. > > cheers, > Nima > > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote: > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > > idx.html > > > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 6:37 AM Subject: Re: Bahais Begin New Millennium by Lying OR Inflated Bahai Statistics given to Washington Post The H-Bahai archive, with discussion of the grossly inflated membership statistics for Bahais, can be found at https://h-net2.msu.edu/~bahai/ -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:84p691$f8q$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Pat being facetious, said: > > > How about those Atheist numbers? If all 149,913,000 are not "active" > > should we adjust them as well? > > Not the same thing, my friend. The actual figures are out there for > Baha'i numbers, contrary to what is "officially" touted. One million is > about the best, real figure you're going to get for Baha'is in the > world. Illiterate villagers in the global south who sign a card (and > more often than not have no idea what they're actually signing or what > it is they're getting into) and get counted in official Baha'i > statistics hardly count as Baha'is, strictly speaking. Bill Garlington > and Steve Garrigues have done the research for India and the > subcontinent, and what has been claimed for that region is > grossly inflated and their research has provided the real numbers which > is much, much less than the over one million Baha'is figure in India as > some have claimed. There has been discussion of Bahai numbers on > H-Bahai, I would recommend you go take a look at the list archives. > > Happy New Millenium! > > Nima > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 6:43 AM To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com Subject: False Baha'i membership numbers on Britannica FYI (current discussion from talk.religion.bahai on Usenet) Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm --- I asked someone in the know about Baha'i figures, and this is their response which sheds a great deal of light on what the approximate and accurate number of worldwide Baha'i membership really is. cheers, Nima ---- The Encyclopedia Britannica numbers were provided by Baha'i apologists, and EB has fallen to so low an estate that it simply prints what is provided. There are virtually no Baha'is in continental Europe. 700 in Holland, similar in Spain, 2,000 each in Germany and France, fewer in Italy. From a demographic point of view this may as well be "zero." There are rumored to be about 5,000 in the UK but who knows what that means, and it is not a lot anyway. Likewise the former Soviet Union has very few Baha'is. Almost none in China. So, with Europe, Eurasia and China out of the way, where are they? There are 60,000 adult Baha'is with good addresses in the US, 12,500 in Canada. So much for North America. There are 2,000 at most in the Arab world. There were less than 100,000 registered before the Revolution in Iran. Maybe 10,000, mostly Iranian refugees, in Turkey. Maybe 25,000 in Pakistan (mainly former Hindus, mainly rural peasants). So the Middle East is likewise very small. There are 10,000 in Thailand. There were 100,000 in Vietnam before the revolution, but few are likely to remain. There are very few, then, in all of Southeast Asia. There are only a couple of thousand in Japan, and a similar number in Korea. East Asia is a wash. All that is really left is Latin America, subsaharan Africa, and India. 2 million are claimed in India but insiders say the true number of real Baha'is there is closer to 100,000. Indians like to 'join' things, but go on being Hindus. I very much doubt there are millions of Baha'is in Latin America (Mexico appears to have almost none, e.g.). Columbia and Bolivia at one time had a few tens of thousands each, to my recollection, but that is not the same as millions. I can't speak for subsaharan Africa. The biggest community was Uganda with 100,000, but it has been greatly disrupted in the last 2 decades by war and dictatorship, and one doesn't know how many are left. This is not to say that the movement contains no potential for growth, only that the 7 million reported to Encyclopedia Britannica by someone in Wilmette or Haifa is....wish fulfilment rather than a solid social science statistic. ---- Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 6:47 AM Subject: Re: Baha'i Figures I've also forwarded this message to Britannica.com. Let's hope they research and correct these figures instead of allowing themselves to be used by my dishonest fellow Bahais.... And, further discussion of the inflated membership figures can be found in the archives of H-Bahai, Humanities and Social Sciences Online: https://h-net2.msu.edu/~bahai/ -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:84pu68$vjj$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > I asked someone in the know about Baha'i figures, and this is their > response which sheds a great deal of light on what the approximate > and accurate number of worldwide Baha'i membership really is. > > cheers, > Nima > > ---- > The Encyclopedia Britannica numbers were provided by Baha'i > apologists, and EB has fallen to so low an estate that it simply prints > what is provided. > > There are virtually no Baha'is in continental Europe. 700 in > Holland, similar in Spain, 2,000 each in Germany and France, fewer in > Italy. From a demographic point of view this may as well be "zero." > There are rumored to be about 5,000 in the UK but who knows what that > means, and it is not a lot anyway. Likewise the former Soviet Union has > very few Baha'is. Almost none in China. So, with Europe, Eurasia and > China out of the way, where are they? > > There are 60,000 adult Baha'is with good addresses in the US, > 12,500 in Canada. So much for North America. > > There are 2,000 at most in the Arab world. There were less than > 100,000 registered before the Revolution in Iran. Maybe 10,000, mostly > Iranian refugees, in Turkey. Maybe 25,000 in Pakistan (mainly former > Hindus, mainly rural peasants). So the Middle East is likewise very > small. > > There are 10,000 in Thailand. There were 100,000 in Vietnam > before the revolution, but few are likely to remain. There are very > few, then, in all of Southeast Asia. There are only a couple of > thousand in Japan, and a similar number in Korea. East Asia is a wash. > > All that is really left is Latin America, subsaharan Africa, and > India. 2 million are claimed in India but insiders say the true number > of real Baha'is there is closer to 100,000. Indians like to 'join' > things, but go on being Hindus. I very much doubt there are millions of > Baha'is in Latin America (Mexico appears to have almost none, e.g.). > Columbia and Bolivia at one time had a few tens of thousands each, to my > recollection, but that is not the same as millions. I can't speak for > subsaharan Africa. The biggest community was Uganda with 100,000, but > it has been greatly disrupted in the last 2 decades by war and > dictatorship, and one doesn't know how many are left. > > > > This is not to say that the movement contains no potential for growth, > only that the 7 million reported to Encyclopedia Britannica by > someone in Wilmette or Haifa is....wish fulfilment rather than a > solid social science statistic. > > ---- > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 6:57 AM Subject: Re: Bahais Begin New Millennium by Lying OR Inflated Bahai Statistics given to Washington Post Including lying to the staff of the Encyclopedia Britannica about membership statistics.... --- From: Patrick Henry Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights of Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed would never be violated in their religion. I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; indeed, the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending Baha'u'llah's Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his Revelation. -- Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.) From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message regarding: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila wrote in message news:wPzb4.5486$Ce.37193@monger.newsread.com... > That number comes from the Encyclopedia Britannica and their own research. > > Peace, > > Dave > > > Patrick Henry wrote in message <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > >https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > >idx.html > > > >"Bahai's 6,764,000" > > > >-- > >Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > >https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > >Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > >Before you buy. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 7:04 AM Subject: Re: False Baha'i Membership Figures or Statistics For those interested, here's Britannica's email address: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s712q8sn5k2171@corp.supernews.com... > I've also forwarded this message to Britannica.com. > Let's hope they research and correct these figures instead of > allowing themselves to be used by my dishonest fellow Bahais.... > > And, further discussion of the inflated membership figures > can be found in the archives of H-Bahai, Humanities and Social > Sciences Online: > > https://h-net2.msu.edu/~bahai/ > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > wrote in message > news:84pu68$vjj$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > I asked someone in the know about Baha'i figures, and this is their > > response which sheds a great deal of light on what the approximate > > and accurate number of worldwide Baha'i membership really is. > > > > cheers, > > Nima > > > > ---- > > The Encyclopedia Britannica numbers were provided by Baha'i > > apologists, and EB has fallen to so low an estate that it simply prints > > what is provided. > > > > There are virtually no Baha'is in continental Europe. 700 in > > Holland, similar in Spain, 2,000 each in Germany and France, fewer in > > Italy. From a demographic point of view this may as well be "zero." > > There are rumored to be about 5,000 in the UK but who knows what that > > means, and it is not a lot anyway. Likewise the former Soviet Union has > > very few Baha'is. Almost none in China. So, with Europe, Eurasia and > > China out of the way, where are they? > > > > There are 60,000 adult Baha'is with good addresses in the US, > > 12,500 in Canada. So much for North America. > > > > There are 2,000 at most in the Arab world. There were less than > > 100,000 registered before the Revolution in Iran. Maybe 10,000, mostly > > Iranian refugees, in Turkey. Maybe 25,000 in Pakistan (mainly former > > Hindus, mainly rural peasants). So the Middle East is likewise very > > small. > > > > There are 10,000 in Thailand. There were 100,000 in Vietnam > > before the revolution, but few are likely to remain. There are very > > few, then, in all of Southeast Asia. There are only a couple of > > thousand in Japan, and a similar number in Korea. East Asia is a wash. > > > > All that is really left is Latin America, subsaharan Africa, and > > India. 2 million are claimed in India but insiders say the true number > > of real Baha'is there is closer to 100,000. Indians like to 'join' > > things, but go on being Hindus. I very much doubt there are millions of > > Baha'is in Latin America (Mexico appears to have almost none, e.g.). > > Columbia and Bolivia at one time had a few tens of thousands each, to my > > recollection, but that is not the same as millions. I can't speak for > > subsaharan Africa. The biggest community was Uganda with 100,000, but > > it has been greatly disrupted in the last 2 decades by war and > > dictatorship, and one doesn't know how many are left. > > > > > > > > This is not to say that the movement contains no potential for growth, > > only that the 7 million reported to Encyclopedia Britannica by > > someone in Wilmette or Haifa is....wish fulfilment rather than a > > solid social science statistic. > > > > ---- > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:44 PM Subject: Re: Loyalty, was Re: Bahais Begin New... From: Patrick Henry Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights of Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed would never be violated in their religion. I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; indeed, the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending Baha'u'llah's Teachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his Revelation. -- Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.) From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message regarding: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. ------- Roger Reini wrote in message news:RJxwOAELFKqDymLiWzB1sI9q4xQa@4ax.com... > On Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:01:02 -0500, "Al McDermid" > wrote: > > >Mr. "Patrick Henry" > > > >It's unfortunate that you do not have the courage to be loyal. > > > > Since it appears that he is no longer considered to be an enrolled > Baha'i, IMHO, he has no reason to show loyalty to a faith to which he > no longer belongs. > > Roger (rreini@wwnet.net) > https://fp-www.wwnet.net/~rreini/ ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:46 PM Subject: Re: False Bahai Membership Figures & Statistics "The Bahai Technique": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:84qh7b$cdb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > It seems to me that the true numbers are between this gloomy estimate > and the EB numbers. A member of my community is a former NSA member > from Macau and her national community was 5000 Baha'is - most being > active. She has also told us that in here travels accross Asia she > encountered large vibrant communities. China has a large Baha'i > population but no one keeps any membership lists for fear of government > persecution as is the case with Falun Gong (sp?). > > In addition I have a good friend from Holland who has told me that the > community there is well over 1000 and has grown substantially in the > last three years. > > I don't find either the EB or the estimate below to be particularly > credible. In fact the number for the US cited below is at odds with > the numbers I got from the folks building the US members database. > They had nearly 140,000 good addresses. > > So unless we get direct access to enrollment records we will have no > real way to get an accurate population of the Baha'i world. > > Basically what it comes down to is this - if you support the Faith you > tend to belive the optomistic 7,000,000 and if you are sour about the > Faith you will support the doomsayers who say there are less than a > million. > > Unfortunately they are all esitmates and we will never know exact > figures. > > Cheers, > > Dave > > In article <84pu68$vjj$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > nima_hazini@my-deja.com wrote: > > I asked someone in the know about Baha'i figures, and this is their > > response which sheds a great deal of light on what the approximate > > and accurate number of worldwide Baha'i membership really is. > > > > cheers, > > Nima > > > > ---- > > The Encyclopedia Britannica numbers were provided by Baha'i > > apologists, and EB has fallen to so low an estate that it simply > prints > > what is provided. > > > > There are virtually no Baha'is in continental Europe. 700 in > > Holland, similar in Spain, 2,000 each in Germany and France, fewer in > > Italy. From a demographic point of view this may as well be "zero." > > There are rumored to be about 5,000 in the UK but who knows what that > > means, and it is not a lot anyway. Likewise the former Soviet Union > has > > very few Baha'is. Almost none in China. So, with Europe, Eurasia and > > China out of the way, where are they? > > > > There are 60,000 adult Baha'is with good addresses in the US, > > 12,500 in Canada. So much for North America. > > > > There are 2,000 at most in the Arab world. There were less than > > 100,000 registered before the Revolution in Iran. Maybe 10,000, > mostly > > Iranian refugees, in Turkey. Maybe 25,000 in Pakistan (mainly former > > Hindus, mainly rural peasants). So the Middle East is likewise very > > small. > > > > There are 10,000 in Thailand. There were 100,000 in Vietnam > > before the revolution, but few are likely to remain. There are very > > few, then, in all of Southeast Asia. There are only a couple of > > thousand in Japan, and a similar number in Korea. East Asia is a > wash. > > > > All that is really left is Latin America, subsaharan Africa, and > > India. 2 million are claimed in India but insiders say the true > number > > of real Baha'is there is closer to 100,000. Indians like to 'join' > > things, but go on being Hindus. I very much doubt there are millions > of > > Baha'is in Latin America (Mexico appears to have almost none, e.g.). > > Columbia and Bolivia at one time had a few tens of thousands each, to > my > > recollection, but that is not the same as millions. I can't speak for > > subsaharan Africa. The biggest community was Uganda with 100,000, but > > it has been greatly disrupted in the last 2 decades by war and > > dictatorship, and one doesn't know how many are left. > > > > > > > > This is not to say that the movement contains no potential for growth, > > only that the 7 million reported to Encyclopedia Britannica by > > someone in Wilmette or Haifa is....wish fulfilment rather than a > > solid social science statistic. > > > > ---- > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:52 PM Subject: Re: loyal opposition in Baha'i Karen, Thank you for having the courage to speak your mind. Reading your message was like a rare and refreshing treat.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:84qohe$hr5$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > > Dear Dave, > > I have very much wanted to respond to the issues you raise here, but > I've only had sporadic access to the Net lately(like on short visits to > my in-laws'). I'm hoping the persuasiveness of my reply will outweigh > its lateness. > > I'm not claiming that we have unlimited freedom; certainly we are > required to restrain our behavior in accordance with what Baha'u'llah > has given us. But the kind of absolute obedience that you are > describing seems, to me, that I am being asked to leave my own > conscience in the hands of the institutions, and behave as if whatever > they do is right by definition, even if they violate the standards given > us by Baha'u'llah Himself. God does, as you say, ask us to do some very > difficult things, and sometimes standing against the tide is one of > them. > > The sad truth is that I have never seen much result from using the > "proper channels" of dissent. At least not on anything very important. > Mostly what I see is that people with a complain get told why the > complaint has no merit, or an explanation why things won't be changed. > In this situation, I can simply dissolve into dissillusionment and walk > away from the Faith altogether, as many do, or I can protest openly. Or > I can become a sort of nonperson that has no will or vision or > conscience of my own, which would be virtually impossible for me to do > even if I thought that were a desirable goal. Where do we draw the line > between obedience and cult-like mindlessness? I have no brilliant > answers, but to me that line has to be the standard of behavior given to > us by Baha'u'llah, and to which I expect the institutions of the Faith > to conform: honesty, trustworthiness, justice, compassion. And if the > institutions of the Faith would rather violate this standard than allow > a diversity of voices, then I can't support them. > > I was reading something the other day which spoke about how the practice > of Shi'ih Islam was less obedience to the principles of the Qur'an, and > more the merging of one's will with that of the "Imam of the Age", who > just happens to be represented by the religious authorities. I've > lately had the thought that perhaps that's the context for Baha'u'llah's > continual insistence on independent thought. I don't think Baha'u'llah > demands that I merge my will with that of an institution; in fact, it is > entirely possible that's something He was warning us against. > > Another problem is the secret and surreptitious way these heresy cases > you mention have been handled. There is no real due process. A > Counsellor or ABM shows up and investigates/interrogates/intimidates, > then reports back, and a decision is made. There is little opportunity > for a person to defend himself and the rest of us are just supposed to > assum that justice was served. Well, now people who have undergone this > process have a forum for presenting their own side. That isn't going to > go away. > > As far as the history of opposition goes: the Faith, since the time of > 'Abdu'l-Baha has expelled covenant-breakers. I know of no lesser crime > for which a person has ever been expelled from the Faith, until Michael > McKenney in 1997, who was found not to meet the "requirements for > membership in the Baha'i community." All the other cases which have > become notorious in recent times have essentially involved the > resignation or lapse into silence and inactivity, of a person under the > threat of being called a covenant-breaker. This is not "removal from > the community" of a person "opposing the Faith"; this is the > intimidation and harassment of believers who have yet to be proven > guilty of anything. These people are not covenant-breakers, but the > threat of being named so hangs over their heads like the sword of > Damocles. > > Yes, of course we must, as 'Abdu'l-Baha said "be obedient to the > commandments of God and the laws of the House of Justice." But before a > person is removed from the Baha'i community, or is threatened so severly > that he removes himself, I think that justice demands that we know > exactly what commandments and laws have been broken, and exactly what > evidence exists proving this. If the wounds in our community are to be > healed, then justice must be seen to be done by the friends, so that all > of us can know exactly why believers in Baha'u'llah have deserved such > severe treatment. It is not enough to say "The institutions did this, > therefore it must be right." It is not enough to say "They said some > bad stuff on email." It is not enough to say "They are part of a > materialist conspiracy." There needs to be specific charges concerning > specific laws, backed up by concrete evidence. And if heresy is to be > one of those charges, this needs to be clearly known so that the UHJ's > policy can be clear to all, and the Baha'i Faith can cease its pretense > of being the open and tolerant religion promoted by its Founder. > > But justice takes time and effort, and it's probably just easier to > threaten people into shutting up or leaving. Evoke the name > "covenant-breaker" and you can make all dissent go away, and you never > have to change anything. That's what passes for justice in the Baha'i > community. > > Baha'u'llah suffered for 40 years under a system where justice was > arbitrary and the accused had no rights. I do not believe He intended > to found such a system. > > Love, > Karen Bacquet > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:55 PM Subject: Re: loyal opposition in Baha'i Ditto. You're probably right that you will now be branded a heretic and harassed until you go away or withdraw from the Bahai faith; that is, if the uhj doesn't suddenly have its sycophants tell you one day that you are no longer on the "roles," bogus as they are.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:84r3o2$qcq$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <84qvf0$n5i$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Carol wrote: > > > > > > So far as I can tell from my redaings the UHJ has no authority to > > declare anyone a heretic, nor to declare anyone a covenant breaker. > The > > Hands appointed by Abdu'l-baha had that authority while Shoghi Effendi > > was a minor, then Shoghi Effendi specifically fordbade them to do so, > > and said that only the Guardian could declare anyone a covenant > breaker. > > I think that was pretty definite. What was done after Shoghi > Effendi's > > death is pretty confusing and unclear as to whether it was correct > > according to the evolution of the Coventual understanding as described > > by him. > > > > The UHJ's purview is to enforce temporal laws in the Aqdas, and to > > create or eliminate temporal laws not delineated in the Aqdas as > needed. > > There is no evidence that they are the Guardian or have the authority > of > > the Guardian. > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > > > Carol Ann > > Of course, Carol, you are quite right. What I'm saying is that when > people are bullied and threatened because of their opinions, then a de > facto class of heretics is created. My challenge is that if heresy, the > holding of unorthodox opinions, is going to be the subject of punitive > action by the institutions, then they should just say so, pass a law > about it and deal with it according to due process. Such a law would be > completely contrary to the teachings of Baha'u'llah, but so is the > action of pushing people out of the Faith for heresy, whether it is > termed so or not. > > It would be a whole lot better if a broad diversity of views, including > those of liberal academics and writers, were just accepted as part of > many ways of viewing the Baha'i Faith. I personally have a hard time > seeing what's so darn threatening about these guys. But then, I suppose, > I'm something of a heretic myself. > > Love, Karen > > "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 6:00 PM Subject: Re: Loyalty, was Re: Bahais Begin New... "The Bahai Technique": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Roger Reini wrote in message news:RJxwOAELFKqDymLiWzB1sI9q4xQa@4ax.com... > On Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:01:02 -0500, "Al McDermid" > wrote: > > >Mr. "Patrick Henry" > > > >It's unfortunate that you do not have the courage to be loyal. > > > > Since it appears that he is no longer considered to be an enrolled > Baha'i, IMHO, he has no reason to show loyalty to a faith to which he > no longer belongs. > > Roger (rreini@wwnet.net) > https://fp-www.wwnet.net/~rreini/ ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 6:36 AM Subject: Re: Bahais Begin New Millennium by Lying OR Inflated Bahai Statistics given to Washington Post wrote in message news:84rj2i$5ob$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > This thread pops up regularly: > > Only an individual may request enrollment into the Baha'i community, and > only that same individual may request his or her name to be removed. The > Baha'i institutions may not arbitrarily add or remove a name. Is that what was done with Michael McKenny, who was "removed" from the roles in 1997? -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:glaysher@mi-mls.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 6:37 AM To: fglaysher Subject: 3rd RESULT: Talk.Religion.Bahai Jan 10, 1999 3rd RESULT: Talk.Religion.Bahai Jan 10, 1999 ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 7:17 PM Subject: Re: loyal opposition in Baha'i Many of the relevant messages may be found on my website. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:85058i$avb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article , > "Kelly Starr" wrote: > > Whoa, Karen! Who is Michael Mckenney, and (briefly) what is this all > about? > > Dear Fred, > > The details of the Michael McKenny case are online in various places; > the documents about it are on H-Baha'i, if I recall correctly. My > understanding of the case is this: Michael McKenny is a Canadian > science fiction writer who used to post on the old Talisman One. He ran > across the "Service of Women" paper, which basically raises some valid > questions about whether or not the exclusion of women from the Universal > House of Justice was meant to be permanent. (This paper, censored by the > institutions, is also available online.) Michael basically felt, after > reading it, that there was no valid reason to continue that exclusion > and posted that opinion on Talisman and other newsgroups. > > In 1997, in the wake of the Talisman crackdown, he was asked to consult > with an ABM, and according to his own account came away feeling pretty > good about it. This lady suggested he write to the UHJ, which he did in > what I think was a rather naive and open-hearted letter. I have never > seen the letter replying to him. The next thing that happened was he > was simply notified that he was no longer a member of the Baha'i > community. No explanation; no nothing. He writes back, in obvious > shock and bewilderment, asking why this was done. He was told that it > was because of his "behavior and attitude" over the previous several > months. Presumably they meant his postings. His wife wrote to the UHJ > telling them they should have provided a decent explanation to him about > his explusion, and they said, among other things, that he doesn't meet > the requirements for membership in the Baha'i community. This is the > first time I've ever heard of that a person has ever been expelled from > the Baha'i community without being declared a covenant-breaker. > > I would encourage you to look at the documents yourself and see what you > think, form your own opinion on it. There are others who would not give > you as sympathetic a viewpoint as I have. Look at both sides and judge > for yourself. > > And you are right about the dangers of covenant-breaking not being taken > lightly. I've had my own experiences that I might share some day. > However, I object to the term being bandied about just because somebody > isn't parrotting the party line. Covenant-breaking is a specific and > serious offense, but I've seen a lot of unnecessary, and even cruel > hysteria about it. > > Love, Karen > > wrote in message > news:84qohe$hr5$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > > > > > > > > Dear Dave, > > > > > > I have very much wanted to respond to the issues you raise here, but > > > I've only had sporadic access to the Net lately(like on short visits > to > > > my in-laws'). I'm hoping the persuasiveness of my reply will > outweigh > > > its lateness. > > > > > > I'm not claiming that we have unlimited freedom; certainly we are > > > required to restrain our behavior in accordance with what > Baha'u'llah > > > has given us. But the kind of absolute obedience that you are > > > describing seems, to me, that I am being asked to leave my own > > > conscience in the hands of the institutions, and behave as if > whatever > > > they do is right by definition, even if they violate the standards > given > > > us by Baha'u'llah Himself. God does, as you say, ask us to do some > very > > > difficult things, and sometimes standing against the tide is one of > > > them. > > > > > > The sad truth is that I have never seen much result from using the > > > "proper channels" of dissent. At least not on anything very > important. > > > Mostly what I see is that people with a complain get told why the > > > complaint has no merit, or an explanation why things won't be > changed. > > > In this situation, I can simply dissolve into dissillusionment and > walk > > > away from the Faith altogether, as many do, or I can protest openly. > Or > > > I can become a sort of nonperson that has no will or vision or > > > conscience of my own, which would be virtually impossible for me to > do > > > even if I thought that were a desirable goal. Where do we draw the > line > > > between obedience and cult-like mindlessness? I have no brilliant > > > answers, but to me that line has to be the standard of behavior > given to > > > us by Baha'u'llah, and to which I expect the institutions of the > Faith > > > to conform: honesty, trustworthiness, justice, compassion. And if > the > > > institutions of the Faith would rather violate this standard than > allow > > > a diversity of voices, then I can't support them. > > > > > > I was reading something the other day which spoke about how the > practice > > > of Shi'ih Islam was less obedience to the principles of the Qur'an, > and > > > more the merging of one's will with that of the "Imam of the Age", > who > > > just happens to be represented by the religious authorities. I've > > > lately had the thought that perhaps that's the context for > Baha'u'llah's > > > continual insistence on independent thought. I don't think > Baha'u'llah > > > demands that I merge my will with that of an institution; in fact, > it is > > > entirely possible that's something He was warning us against. > > > > > > Another problem is the secret and surreptitious way these heresy > cases > > > you mention have been handled. There is no real due process. A > > > Counsellor or ABM shows up and > investigates/interrogates/intimidates, > > > then reports back, and a decision is made. There is little > opportunity > > > for a person to defend himself and the rest of us are just supposed > to > > > assum that justice was served. Well, now people who have undergone > this > > > process have a forum for presenting their own side. That isn't > going to > > > go away. > > > > > > As far as the history of opposition goes: the Faith, since the time > of > > > 'Abdu'l-Baha has expelled covenant-breakers. I know of no lesser > crime > > > for which a person has ever been expelled from the Faith, until > Michael > > > McKenney in 1997, who was found not to meet the "requirements for > > > membership in the Baha'i community." All the other cases which have > > > become notorious in recent times have essentially involved the > > > resignation or lapse into silence and inactivity, of a person under > the > > > threat of being called a covenant-breaker. This is not "removal > from > > > the community" of a person "opposing the Faith"; this is the > > > intimidation and harassment of believers who have yet to be proven > > > guilty of anything. These people are not covenant-breakers, but the > > > threat of being named so hangs over their heads like the sword of > > > Damocles. > > > > > > Yes, of course we must, as 'Abdu'l-Baha said "be obedient to the > > > commandments of God and the laws of the House of Justice." But > before a > > > person is removed from the Baha'i community, or is threatened so > severly > > > that he removes himself, I think that justice demands that we know > > > exactly what commandments and laws have been broken, and exactly > what > > > evidence exists proving this. If the wounds in our community are to > be > > > healed, then justice must be seen to be done by the friends, so that > all > > > of us can know exactly why believers in Baha'u'llah have deserved > such > > > severe treatment. It is not enough to say "The institutions did > this, > > > therefore it must be right." It is not enough to say "They said > some > > > bad stuff on email." It is not enough to say "They are part of a > > > materialist conspiracy." There needs to be specific charges > concerning > > > specific laws, backed up by concrete evidence. And if heresy is to > be > > > one of those charges, this needs to be clearly known so that the > UHJ's > > > policy can be clear to all, and the Baha'i Faith can cease its > pretense > > > of being the open and tolerant religion promoted by its Founder. > > > > > > But justice takes time and effort, and it's probably just easier to > > > threaten people into shutting up or leaving. Evoke the name > > > "covenant-breaker" and you can make all dissent go away, and you > never > > > have to change anything. That's what passes for justice in the > Baha'i > > > community. > > > > > > Baha'u'llah suffered for 40 years under a system where justice was > > > arbitrary and the accused had no rights. I do not believe He > intended > > > to found such a system. > > > > > > Love, > > > Karen Bacquet > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 7:19 PM Subject: Re: False Bahai Membership Figures & Statistics "Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:84sve5$3um$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > "Spam and Scram" - the Fred Glaysher Technique > > In article , > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > "The Bahai Technique": > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > wrote in message > news:84qh7b$cdb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > It seems to me that the true numbers are between this gloomy > estimate > > > and the EB numbers. A member of my community is a former NSA member > > > from Macau and her national community was 5000 Baha'is - most being > > > active. She has also told us that in here travels accross Asia she > > > encountered large vibrant communities. China has a large Baha'i > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 7:31 PM Subject: Re: loyal opposition in Baha'i wrote in message news:8505th$be5$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article , > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > Dear Fred, > You've forgotten my story. I'm not on the roles, which I why I can be > so bold in saying what I think. But what else do you call a Baha'i who > is not part of the administrative order and not a covenant-breaker? I > refer to myself as a "heretic" in a sort of tongue-in-cheek way, because > the UHJ denies that it is creating heretics by its actions. By the way, > my understanding is that the word "heretic" comes from the Greek meaning > "to make choices" as opposed to orthodox or "right thinking" people. > From that perspective, the label is not so bad to wear. > Love, Karen Sorry. It's hard to remember how everyone has been abused. There's so much of it! -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 7:07 AM Subject: Re: Liberalism Well said, Nima.... I thank you for taking the pains to do so. It is precisely Baha'u'llah's appreciation for and augmentation of liberalism in his Writings that the fundamentalists are ignoring. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:851qkr$hub$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > > He also told us to see with our own eyes and not through the eyes of > others, > > and hear with our own ears and not through the ears of others, and to > be just. > > That basically means to use your own brain and come to your own > conclusions. > > Once institutions think for you, you have given up this very important > > commandment. > > Couldn't have put it better myself, Andree. Ditto! > I would also add that those who say they don't see liberalism in the > works of Baha'u'llah (and liberalism in what that word means in the > classical 18th-19th C. sense and not what it necessarily has come to > mean in the contemporary mainstream American scene) should then ask > themselves why it was that Baha'u'llah upheld parliamentary democratic > forms of government and polity as the best political system, why its > consultative processes (mushavirat) appealed to him and his son and as > such it was enshrined in their teaching, and why they both proclaimed > pluralism and rejected the theocratic pretensions of ecclesiastical > orders. Surely, Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha were communatarian liberals > whose political thought upheld social democracy while tempering social > democracy with Spirit. Or to put it another way, the Baha'i system is > not a theocracy, but not purely a secular democracy which rejects the > spiritual nature and impulses of humanity. Rather, it is a > theophanocracy (rule by the theophanies/tajalliyat, which according to > Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha [especially in his commentary on Hidden > Treasure], is the inner reality of each human being). Baha'u'llah's > revelation in its social aspect is therefore nothing short of a social > democratic liberal communitarian theo-ontological liberation of the > believing man from the shackles of dogmatic triumphalistic religious > exclusivism and authoritarianism, leading him to universal vision and > social freedom. > > cheers, > Nima > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 7:10 AM Subject: Re: Liberalism wrote in message news:853q82$7i$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > The path is not wrong, David. And not even Fred Glaysher has said > this. The misimplimentation of it and some of those who claim to > represent (read: misrepresent) it and are in prominence, are. Thanks, again, Nima, for your fairness, a virtue in very short supply on talk.religion.bahai.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:f_glaysher@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 7:56 AM To: alisonz@clear.net.nz Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Your Talisman subscription application It appears to me you hold numerous preconceptions about me. Nevertheless, I am interested in subscribing to the new incarnation of talisman and shall endeavor to be what you conceive of as a good boy. Frederick Glaysher patrick_henry@bigfoot.com >From: Alison Marshall >To: patrick_henry@bigfoot.com >Subject: Your Talisman subscription application >Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:54:11 +1300 (NZDT) > >Dear Fred > >Your application to join Talisman has come to me as moderator of Talisman. > >I will allow you to join Talisman, but only under the following conditions: > >1. Talisman is not another TRB. The purpose of the list is the serious >discussion of the Faith (rather like H-Baha'i, but more informal). It is >*not* a place to let off steam about the Baha'i administration nor another >arena to pursue or air a personal vendetta against the administration. >Criticism must be constructive and not repetitive. > >2. The Talisman rules strictly forbid ANY personal remarks or attacks on >list members. Messages must be polite. > >I will not forward to the list any messages that I think violate these >standards. I will not enter into any discussions with you over my decisions. >If you give me any grief over this, I will summarily remove you from the list. > >When you let me know that you accept these conditions, I will put your >subscription through. > >Alison Marshall >Talisman moderator > ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:f_glaysher@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 8:04 AM To: MrMahdi@aol.com Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Bahai: Will you include intrusive tactics by bahais on your website Mr. Mahdi, Sorry it's taken me a while to answer. My membership card is scanned in on my website, and I've never been notified otherwise by any Bahai offical or institution. I don't believe nor accept the claims of the fundamentalists. I emailed the uhj for clarification. That's where it stands as far as I'm concerned. My message to the uhj, now on my website, brings this all up. Thanks for asking, and all the best to you, Fred >From: MrMahdi@aol.com >To: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com >Subject: Bahai: Will you include intrusive tactics by bahais on your website >Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:57:45 EST > >Greetings Fred, > >I have noticed that bahais have launch a character defamation against you. >Some claimed that they have search your records to see you whether you were >still bahai or not. I find this extremely rude, sinister, and intrusive when >it comes to your privacy. I would like to know if you have any evidence to >counter the outrageous attacks by the bahais against you, and will you >include the recent bahais' attacks on your character on your webpage. Take >care. ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:f_glaysher@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 8:07 AM To: MrMahdi@aol.com Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Article by Vance Salisbury concerning the bahai faith Mr. Mahdi, Don't know if I answered this before or not, been busy. Of course, I agree with much of this, and it's what concerns me most too and keeps me going, so to speak.... Best, Fred >From: MrMahdi@aol.com >To: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com >Subject: Re: Article by Vance Salisbury concerning the bahai faith >Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:16:42 EST > >Greetings Fred, > >In article , > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > Thanks for posting an interesting link. I've added it > > to my webpage so that others might understand the way > > "review" works in Bahai circles.... > >Well, because of the fanaticism of many bahais, they might declare you >a "Covenant Breaker" for disclosing the truth! Censorship is a serious >issue within the bahai faith, although the way the most bahais propagate >their faith makes the bahai faith seem like is a "liberal's dream," but when >many bahais find out later on that the bahai faith is controlled by people >who are far from "liberal," then as we have seen many people will leave >the bahai faith in disgust. > >I find it sinister and even selfish that many non-liberal bahais propagate >their religion as something "liberal and progressive" while in fact the >current state of the bahai faith is far from liberal and progressive. This >just shows how "convert-hungry" and selfish the bahais are. ---------- From: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com[SMTP:editorial-comments@us.britannica.com] Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 5:16 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: RE: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your feedback regarding the Britannica.com site. We value and appreciate all comments from our visitors. Your suggestions have been forwarded to the appropriate department. Thank you again for contacting Britannica.com. Sincerely, Jin Britannica.com Customer Service www.britannica.com -----Original Message----- From: FG [mailto:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:33 AM To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com Subject: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica FYI --- Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as Latin America are often exagerrated. cheers, Nima In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote regard Washington Post article: > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > idx.html > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 11:16 AM Subject: Re: slander and bullying by so called liberals As the editor of Robert Hayden's Collected Prose (U of Michigan Press) and his Collected Poems (Liveright, imprint of W. W. Norton), I'm not at all unfamiliar with Black racists attacking and maligning me, not to mention changing through their insidious racism the course of my life on a number of occasions, but invariably because I am white.... Jamal's comments reflect the typical shallowness of radical thinking in America and in the Bahai faith. It was of course uhj member Glenford Mitchell who was a supporter of Malcolm X's brand of violent race relations, editing a magazine full of racist rubbish and resentment, and who has apparently taken the same tactics with him to contribute to the Stalinization of the uhj. Let me recommend again David Horowitz's recently published Hating Whitey and Other Progressive Causes and Ward Connerly's forthcoming book against Black racism and race preferences that will be released in February for Black History Month, for those truly interested in history, not racist romantic fantasy and embitterment.... Since I'm mentioning Blacks with some real intelligence, one truly interested in these matters shouldn't miss Keith . Richburg's courageous Out of America: A Black Man Confronts Africa. Jamal's comments represent quite well the pathetically low level to which the uhj and Henderson have allowed Baha'u'llah's commanding vision of human oneness to be banalized and perverted. His comments also reveal that in the Bahai faith the search for "The shining spark of truth" that "cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions" has been replaced by self-righteous "race rhetoric," as Hayden called it on one occasion.... Only a free and open forum, beginningwith the ending of "review" and following the Teaching of Baha'u'llah Himself in this regard, can permit the much-needed exchange of views exploring what it really means to be a human being in this day and age, instead of a caricature of someone's leftist to marxist, racist thinking.... -- Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ wrote in message news:856u7q$7re$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Interesting, and since when do we need to have cyberbullying a by > boleshevik like thought police like you Nima who prowl around the net > attacking and insulting people who happen to disagree with them. > My posting was addressed to Mr. Juan Cole views not to you and you come > around attacking me, calling me all kinds of names and DON'T POST UNDER > YOUR NAME but from the U.S. trying to differientate yourself from your > earlier posting from Australia. Don't buy your hypocrisy and double > standard bull. you have perfected the techniques of character > asssasination and use it quite well against those with whom you > disagree especially black people. > jamal > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 11:25 AM Subject: Re: Adib Taherzadeh dies A great loss to the faith and his family. Let's hope he's replaced with someone more liberal and open to ALL of Baha'u'llah's Teachings, not just the oppressive Iranian side of it. This might be the opportunity for a few other fascist uhj members to resign or be removed. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm [name suppressed upon request] wrote in message news:[]at... > Dear friends, > > I got this from another list.... > > regards, > [name suppressed upon request] > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: NorthWest Baha'is Announce > Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 6:23 AM > Subject: UHJ Member Adib Taherzadeh sick > > > > My Dear Norwebnet and Announce friends: > > > > These messages about the death of Adib Taherzadeh his being ill in the > > hospital were put out over both lists and I wish to let you know the real > > story. I shared this with my fellow Brighton Creek Board members and my > > community because they know I am close to Adib's brother Habib's family > from > > my 3+ years with them in Brazil. Riaz Taherzadeh who is Habib's son > emailed > > me a few days ago to let me know of Adib's condition. Here is an excerpt > of > > that message: > > > > >>Adib is seriously ill and in the hospital. He is very weak and is > > breathing with the help of oxygen. He was admitted to treat a case of > > pneumonia last week. At the end of the week his condition suddenly became > > very critical. He had been diagnosed a year ago with multiple myloma > (sp?) > > but that was in remission. Physicians still have not determined what is > the > > underlying problem for the sudden turn. At the bottom is the message > calling > > for prayers. We are in touch with Lesley, his wife, daily by phone. Nora > > and Mom are also in touch with Lesley.>> > > > > My wife has been diagnosed with Multiple Myeloma for several years now, so > I > > sent them an email about the condition from information we got from the > > American Cancer Society. Pneumonia is common with Multiple Myeloma > patients. > > I called Brazil to talk with Nora. She said Lesley is very strong during > this > > and is holding up extremely well. All his children are there and he is > unable > > to communicate. The doctors as of yesterday said that it could be hours or > > days left. A message can be sent to the World Center at Haifa and it will > be > > forwarded to the family. > > > > I got an email from Riaz this afternoon, part of which reads: > > > > >> As of last night there had not been a change in his condition. He was > on > > an oxygen respirator and being given antibiotics for pneumonia plus blood. > > Will keep you informed. His wife, Lesley; and sons and daughters, Ronald > > Taher, Vida, Maryam, and Bahhaj; some of their spouses; and some > > grandchildren are there with him. > > Love from us, -Riaz >> > > > > Yes, my friends, prayers would be nice. > > > > Bob Stevens > > Kent, WA > > > > > > > schrieb in im Newsbeitrag: > 853bh4$mjn$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > Universal House of Justice member and author of the four volume > > _Revelation of Baha'u'llah_ published by George Ronald, Adib Taherzadeh, > > has died as a result of complications related to cancer. Let me take > > this opportunity to offer my sincerest condolences to his family, > > friends and colleagues. His literary achievements in his several > > publications are testimony to his committment and dedication to his > > faith. May he rest in peace and his memory be blessed. > > > > With regret, > > Nima Hazini > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 11:28 AM Subject: Re: False Bahai Membership Figures & Statistics FYI A response from the Encyclopedia of Britannica: --- Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your feedback regarding the Britannica.com site. We value and appreciate all comments from our visitors. Your suggestions have been forwarded to the appropriate department. Thank you again for contacting Britannica.com. Sincerely, Jin Britannica.com Customer Service www.britannica.com -----Original Message----- From: FG Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:33 AM To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com Subject: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica FYI --- Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as Latin America are often exagerrated. cheers, Nima In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote regard Washington Post article: > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > idx.html > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s77nkudsnfg118@corp.supernews.com... > "Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private > possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what > further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day > of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the > comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience > are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] > servants." > > Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > wrote in message news:84sve5$3um$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > "Spam and Scram" - the Fred Glaysher Technique > > > > In article , > > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > > "The Bahai Technique": > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm > > > > > > -- > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > wrote in message > > news:84qh7b$cdb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > > It seems to me that the true numbers are between this gloomy > > estimate > > > > and the EB numbers. A member of my community is a former NSA member > > > > from Macau and her national community was 5000 Baha'is - most being > > > > active. She has also told us that in here travels accross Asia she > > > > encountered large vibrant communities. China has a large Baha'i > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 11:32 AM Subject: Re: Bahais Begin New Millennium by Lying OR Inflated Bahai Statistics given to Washington Post FYI A response from the Encyclopedia of Britannica: --- Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your feedback regarding the Britannica.com site. We value and appreciate all comments from our visitors. Your suggestions have been forwarded to the appropriate department. Thank you again for contacting Britannica.com. Sincerely, Jin Britannica.com Customer Service www.britannica.com -----Original Message----- From: FG Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:33 AM To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com Subject: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica FYI --- Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as Latin America are often exagerrated. cheers, Nima In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote regard Washington Post article: > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > idx.html > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s77nkudsnfg118@corp.supernews.com... > "Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private > possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what > further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day > of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the > comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience > are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] > servants." > > Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > wrote in message news:84sve5$3um$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > "Spam and Scram" - the Fred Glaysher Technique > > > > In article , > > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > > "The Bahai Technique": > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm > > > > > > -- > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > wrote in message > > news:84qh7b$cdb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > > It seems to me that the true numbers are between this gloomy > > estimate > > > > and the EB numbers. A member of my community is a former NSA member > > > > from Macau and her national community was 5000 Baha'is - most being > > > > active. She has also told us that in here travels accross Asia she > > > > encountered large vibrant communities. China has a large Baha'i > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s7123gsg5k2185@corp.supernews.com... > I've emailed the Encyclopedia Britannica regarding these > false Bahai membership statistics. > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > wrote in message > news:84p05h$b2i$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. > > There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years > > about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number > > is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the > > global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as > > Latin America are often exagerrated. > > > > cheers, > > Nima > > > > > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote: > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > > > idx.html > > > > > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > > > > > -- > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 6:20 PM Subject: Re: Adib Taherzadeh dies David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila wrote in message news:bVMd4.49120$xC4.597049@newshog.newsread.com... > You have no dignity do you. I have seen you heap abuse on many people on > and off this list, but this take the cake. Any last scraps of respect I had > for you are now gone. You imagine I or anyone else should have any respect for you and your fellow Bahai fanatics, on or off the uhj? Objective observers will note you have never evinced the slightest modicum of concern for the abuse the uhj has heaped on innocent Bahais and its other victims but seek always to employ The Bahai Technique of character assassination and slander: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 6:21 PM Subject: Re: Liberalism What a farce.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm David Fiorito and Jennifer Spotila wrote in message news:g8Md4.49105$xC4.596155@newshog.newsread.com... > > nima_hazini@my-deja.com wrote in message <856j9v$2v$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> This is all in the writings which are authoritative > >> and all administration of the Faith must conform to them. > >> > >> If that makes the Baha'i Faith authoritarian then that must be the way > >> God intended it to be. That is my point. > > > >And with all due respect, your point is wrong. Because Baha'u'llah did > >not mean his institutions to be authoritarian, and he says so. What ever > >happened to the Kitab-i-Iqan and `Abdu'l-Baha's Secret of Divine > >Civilization in the great scheme of things? And this is my point. > > > >cheers, > >Nima > > I was always under the impression that The Secret of Divine Civilization was > not about the Baha'i Faith. I was under the assumption that it is about > human civilization. I do not see how it applies to Baha'i Administration. > I am curious to know if there is something about the work that I am missing? > > The same with the Kitab-i-Iqan? Baha'u'llah does not lay out any plans for > Baha'i Administration in the Kitab-i-Iqan as far as I know. I have read > through it twice and I am not sure in what way it has relevance to this > topic. Is there something there that I am missing? > > Peace, > > Dave > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 7:24 AM Subject: Re: slander and bullying by so called liberals wrote in message news:859hv3$urm$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In the early 90s as a young, gullible and very naive Baha'i, I had heard > rumours in the community about Robert Henderson's "radical past" and > having been a Black Panther. At the time this scored serious points with > me because it was during the time I had briefly met Kwame Thure on a > lecture he gave at my university, who got me interested in the history > of radical black and minority politics in America in the mid/late `60s > (no need to mention that it was above all the life, character, ideas and > impact of Hajj Malik ash-Shabbaz Malcom X and his biography by Alex > Haley which impressed me the most about the era - Fred, you're > completely wrong about Malcolm X!). Malcolm X? Oh, please.... Again, I suggest David Horowitz's Hating Whitey and Other Progressive Causes. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 7:48 AM Subject: Re: slander and bullying by so called liberals A review I've posted to Cole's Amazon.com listing: In his conclusion, which would never have passed the system of Bahai "review" that the UHJ imposes on all publications brought out under its tight control, Professor Cole, of the Department of History at The University of Michigan, quite accurately identifies the distortions that have been wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings: "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriachy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed." (196) He himself and many others, as evidence under the "Assorted Controversial Documents" on my website "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience," which documents numerous incidents of Bahai censorship, have suffered at the hands of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the religion: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement." (201) These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on AOL, talk.religion.bahai, and alt.religion.bahai for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. In my opinion, the "Macolm X" review here is probably written by someone associated with the Bahai administration and desperately attempting to discredit Professor Cole's insightful critique. Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and thatliberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. The UHJ is also in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums of public discussion, as here with "Malcom X." -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:858j1l$a5h$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Malcolm, > > You are completely out of touch with what is going on, I am sorry to > say. This is not about race. Robert Henderson is even disliked for his > high handed dictatorial reign of terror in the National Center even > among many black Baha'is. And as far as I'm concerned there is a > duemvirate of Henderson and his step father, Kazemzadeh, and not > Henderson by himself.. > > > malcom9@my-deja.com wrote: > > > Interesting, and since when do we need to have cyberbullying a by > > boleshevik like thought police like you Nima who prowl around the net > > Bolshevik, me?! And all this time I have been denouncing the Stalinism > of Henderson and Kazemzadeh. Thought police, huh?! What is bullying > independent travel agencies, former employees at Wilmette, LSAs, > scholars, former NSA members (Khan and now Nelson), unilaterally > revoking the administrative rights of a dying patient whose father is a > prominent Baha'i, engaging in a ceaseless campaign of dirty politics and > smeer for almost 18 years against anyone who stands in his way, > collecting dirt on other Baha'i administrators and using it > against them to eliminate them as rivals, denouncing former magazine > editors on the floor of a national convention as covenant breakers, > unilaterally revoking pikgrimage rights of individuals, lying to the > community, spying on individuals and writing slanderous letters about > them to other communities, and so on and so on and so on and so on and > so on and so on and so on, ad infinitum. > > > attacking and insulting people who happen to disagree with them. > > Who is doing the insulting here by calling me a racist? > > > My posting was addressed to Mr. Juan Cole views not to you and you > >come > > around attacking me, > > Because the review that you wrote on Amazon.Com was full of irrelevant > and nonsensical BS that had nothing to do with the actual content of the > book and the author's views. In short what you did was character > assassination. You have not read the book but attack the author and his > book in the most malicious way. > > >calling me all kinds of names > > What were you calling Juan? How about I direct people to the URL so they > can see for themselves the malicious nonsense you wrote (the reviewer > first uses the alias malcolm x and then the name he is using now, > Malcolm Jamal): > > https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0231110812/o/qid=947375075/sr=2-1 > /104-7612436-2129218 > > and DON'T POST > >UNDER > > YOUR NAME but from the U.S. trying to differientate yourself from your > > earlier posting from Australia. > > I move around a lot, so what's it to you? > > >Don't buy your hypocrisy and double > > standard bull. > > Neither do I buy yours or that Stalinist in Wilmette who put you up to > this. I don't believe you are a Muslim black activist but a Henderson > crony. > > >you have perfected the techniques of character > > asssasination and use it quite well against those with whom you > > disagree especially black people. > > LOL. Henderson's bullies using the oldest projection trick in the book. > Also, trumping this "racist" card is biggest load of donkey doo-doo > imaginable, because I myself am a person of color. Try something better. > > Nima > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 7:59 AM Subject: Re: Fred please don't Crosspost! The Bahai faith began in Iran and our discussion therefore is not off topic in soc.culture.iran; the uhj has its center in Haifa, Israel, and spreads out to the world from there. Keeping Israel abreast of what is actually taking place behind the closed doors of the "world center" is therefore not off topic nor spam. It will be evident to unbiased observers why fundamentalist Bahais want to come up with spurious reasons to prevent members of both newsgroups from hearing about the misdeeds of Bahais both in and out of their respective countries. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Pat Kohli wrote in message news:3878D24B.26A197F9@ameritel.nt... > Allahu Abha! > > nima_hazini@my-deja.com wrote: > > > Please don't crosspost the threads to other newsgroups (especially > > soc.culture.iranian and soc. culture.israel). Nettiquette/spamming > > issues aside, all of us here share concerns. > > But we have different concerns as well. > > > But it doesn't help matters > > to have to be subjected to the malicious hostility raining down upon > > everyone without discrimination by those who have no real concern > > whatsoever (on any level) for the Baha'i Faith and its teachings, > > either. Let's keep the issues going on these two newsgroups "only". Hey, > > isn't this why arb/trb exists in the first place? Thanks. > > Also consider the basis for a call to close SRB. Consider the suggestion > that the charters of arb and trb are effectively void once the groups are > formed. Consider why someone reposts the same old nonsense over and over > again. The purpose of arb/trb is discussion; not all parties who use these > fora are at all interested in exchanging their views, some wish only for > others to accept their views w/o question. > > Though you and another party may have some similar concerns, do not assume > that they have the same objectives as you. See how your Oz mate has been > abused by a party for asking them to conduct themselves like an adult, > rather than a spoiled child. I'd be quite surprised if you can draw blood > from the turnip, but more power to you for trying - hope springs eternal. > > As I cautioned the reasonable readers earlier, please be cautious about > replying to Fred's (Patrick Henry's) messages - you may find yourself > spamming SCI and SCI unintentionally (in Fred's footsteps), delete the two > SCIs from the header of the response. > > Another course of action might be to get the charter's of those groups and > if Fred's spamming is off-topic, or somehow a charter violation - report him > to his ISP. You will soon see if that is appropriate. > > Blessings! > - Pat > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 7:03 AM Subject: ONE year anniversary - talk.religion.bahai After two and a half years of Bahai's opposing the creation of talk.religion.bahai, it passed a Usenet wide poll on news.groups on January 10, 1999: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRESULT.htm Extremely few Bahais supported it. For details see https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/NOvoters3rd.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: mdiller@us.britannica.com[SMTP:mdiller@us.britannica.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 10:13 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Cc: CTrumbul@eb.com; JSturgis@eb.com Subject: RE: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica Hello. Your comment has been bouncing around our email network, from editors to World Data authorities, and the resolution is that we would like to revise our figures for Baha'i membership worldwide provided we can come across hard statistical data to go by. Given that our current figures are based on the best available statistics currently at our disposal, however, we will not be able to make such a change unless you can point us in the direction of publications that indicate exaggerated membership totals in the areas you mention. Do you know of such a reference source that we could consult? Sincerely, Mark Diller, Ph.D. Online Editor, Religion Britannica.com, Inc. > -----Original Message----- > From: Trumbull, Charles > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 8:54 AM > To: Sturgis, Joseph; Diller, Mark > Subject: RE: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia > Britannica > > Our figure this year for total Bahais worldwide is about 6.9 million. I'm > sure the authors of the table would be interested in any hard statistics > any of these readers may have that indicate our figures are too high. > > Charlie > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sturgis, Joseph > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 7:02 AM > To: Trumbull, Charles > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Diller, Mark > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 08:31 AM > To: Sturgis, Joseph > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > > > RE: World Religions Table. Joe Sturgis > > -----Original Message----- > From: Himick, Michael > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 4:34 PM > To: Diller, Mark > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia > Britannica > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Editorial-Comments > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 4:16 PM > To: Himick, Michael > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia > Britannica > > > jl > -----Original Message----- > From: FG [mailto:FG@hotmail.com] > > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:33 AM > To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com > Subject: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia > Britannica > > > FYI > > --- > Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is > misleading. There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some > years about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the > number is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the > global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as > Latin America are often exagerrated. > cheers, > Nima > > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com > >, patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote > regard Washington Post article: > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > > idx.html > > > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 2:34 PM To: mdiller@us.britannica.com Cc: Juan Cole Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica I believe Professor Juan Cole of the University of Michigan's Department of History is probably the most reliable person to speak with. I'll "cc" this message to jrcole@umich.edu I know he has discussed the actual statistics of Bahai membership many times online as much lower than the "official" numbers. His website may also be of use to Britannica: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm I believe a more realistic number would be of help to both Bahais and non-Bahais trying to assess the membership of the Bahai Faith. It was the use of the Britannica figure by The Washington Post that originally caused my and other people's concern. Thanks for your interest. Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 10:13 AM Subject: RE: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica > Hello. > > Your comment has been bouncing around our email network, from editors to > World Data authorities, and the resolution is that we would like to revise > our figures for Baha'i membership worldwide provided we can come across hard > statistical data to go by. Given that our current figures are based on the > best available statistics currently at our disposal, however, we will not be > able to make such a change unless you can point us in the direction of > publications that indicate exaggerated membership totals in the areas you > mention. Do you know of such a reference source that we could consult? > > Sincerely, > > Mark Diller, Ph.D. > Online Editor, Religion > Britannica.com, Inc. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Trumbull, Charles > > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 8:54 AM > > To: Sturgis, Joseph; Diller, Mark > > Subject: RE: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia > > Britannica > > > > Our figure this year for total Bahais worldwide is about 6.9 million. I'm > > sure the authors of the table would be interested in any hard statistics > > any of these readers may have that indicate our figures are too high. > > > > Charlie > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sturgis, Joseph > > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 7:02 AM > > To: Trumbull, Charles > > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > > Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Diller, Mark > > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 08:31 AM > > To: Sturgis, Joseph > > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > > Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > > > > > > > > > RE: World Religions Table. Joe Sturgis > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Himick, Michael > > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 4:34 PM > > To: Diller, Mark > > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > > Encyclopedia > > Britannica > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Editorial-Comments > > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 4:16 PM > > To: Himick, Michael > > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > > Encyclopedia > > Britannica > > > > > > jl > > -----Original Message----- > > From: FG [mailto:FG@hotmail.com] > > > > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:33 AM > > To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com > > Subject: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia > > Britannica > > > > > > FYI > > > > --- > > Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is > > misleading. There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some > > years about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the > > number is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the > > global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as > > Latin America are often exagerrated. > > cheers, > > Nima > > > > > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com > > >, patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote > > regard Washington Post article: > > > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > > > idx.html > > > > > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > > > > > -- > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. ---------- From: Juan Cole[SMTP:jrcole@umich.edu] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 9:39 PM To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica Thanks, Fred. I wrote them that even 5 million is an exaggeration. cheers JRIC ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 8:38 AM Subject: Re: ONE year anniversary - talk.religion.bahai Michael McKenny wrote in message news:85g2qj$gig$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Greetings, patk. > As I said at the time, I voted for the more widely distributed TRB, > because I don't have access to ARB. I have found it quite good that this > only window in Baha'i censorship available to me exists. > To Freedom of Thought and Expression, > Michael It should be obvious to anyone who has followed the designs of fundamentalist Bahais during the three year battle to create talk.religion.bahai that their dishonesty know no bounds. Pat kohli@ameritel.net attempt to attack me by seduce people on other newsgroups speaks for itself and demonstrates all the more the need for alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai as free forums where fanatics cannot crush views they wish to suppress. Both soc.culture. israel and soc.culture.iran are relevant, in my opinion, to discussion of censorship and other forms of dishonesty in the Bahai faith. I shall continue to post to them so that the innocent and uninformed may decide for themselves about the deceit that has become dominant now in the Bahai faith. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 8:41 AM Subject: Re: Mr. Adib Taherzadeh still alive I agree with you that there's probably more than meets the eye going on.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:85dq59$v75$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Thank God. > But I have to say this has all been a rather bizarre episode. Three > Baha'i lists and several Baha'is who maintain ties to various offices at > the Baha'i World Centre announced that Taherzadeh had died, which > prompted me to post on this list. Then a few days later we hear that he > has not died but in critical condition. I don't wish to gainsay anyone > on the life or death of an individual and prominent Baha'i, and I am > overjoyed that Adib Taherzadeh is still alive (hopefully he will recover > soon and return to his duties), but I can't help but wonder if there's > something more we haven't been told... > For what it's worth, my prayers are with him, his family, friends and > colleagues. > > cheers, > Nima > > > In article , > rreini@wwnet.net wrote: > > I have received confirmation from the Baha'i World Center in Haifa > > that Mr. Adib Taherzadeh has not passed away, but that he remains > > seriously ill and is in a Haifa hospital. The note concludes with a > > statement that "your prayers on his behalf are deeply appreciated." > > > > The message was sent at 9:20 AM ET (16:20 Israeli time, GMT+2) on > > January 10, 2000. > > > > Roger (rreini@wwnet.net) > > https://fp-www.wwnet.net/~rreini/ > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 8:44 AM Subject: Re: Bahais Begin New Millennium by Lying OR Inflated Bahai Statistics given to Washington Post It appears that the truth of the indisputable facts may finally come to light on this issue. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s7epcnlqoj867@corp.supernews.com... > FYI > > A response from the Encyclopedia of Britannica: > > --- > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your feedback regarding the Britannica.com site. We value and > appreciate all comments from our visitors. Your suggestions have been > forwarded to the appropriate department. > > Thank you again for contacting Britannica.com. > > > Sincerely, > Jin > Britannica.com Customer Service > www.britannica.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: FG > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:33 AM > To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com > Subject: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica > > > FYI > > --- > Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. > There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years > about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number > is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the > global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as > Latin America are often exagerrated. > > cheers, > Nima > > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote regard Washington Post article: > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > > idx.html > > > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > > > Patrick Henry wrote in message > news:s77nkudsnfg118@corp.supernews.com... > > "Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private > > possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what > > further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the > day > > of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the > > comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience > > are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] > > servants." > > > > Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote in message > news:84sve5$3um$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > "Spam and Scram" - the Fred Glaysher Technique > > > > > > In article , > > > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > > > "The Bahai Technique": > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > wrote in message > > > news:84qh7b$cdb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > > > It seems to me that the true numbers are between this gloomy > > > estimate > > > > > and the EB numbers. A member of my community is a former NSA member > > > > > from Macau and her national community was 5000 Baha'is - most being > > > > > active. She has also told us that in here travels accross Asia she > > > > > encountered large vibrant communities. China has a large Baha'i > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > > Patrick Henry wrote in message > news:s7123gsg5k2185@corp.supernews.com... > > I've emailed the Encyclopedia Britannica regarding these > > false Bahai membership statistics. > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > wrote in message > > news:84p05h$b2i$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. > > > There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years > > > about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number > > > is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the > > > global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as > > > Latin America are often exagerrated. > > > > > > cheers, > > > Nima > > > > > > > > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > > patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote: > > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > > > > idx.html > > > > > > > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 8:50 AM Subject: Re: ONE year anniversary - talk.religion.bahai Entering the second year of talk.religion.bahai, I'm concerned that Bahai fanatics have and are driving people out of the newsgroup by their incessant attacks on individuals, backbiting, deceit, treachery, demonizaton of others, and so on.... I'd appreciate hearing others' perception of their continuing poisoning of the atmosphere.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Chris Manvell wrote in message news:$0glHGAYP6e4EAdh@breacais.demon.co.uk... > On talk.religion.bahai, (mailto:patk9018@my-deja.com) wrote: > >How many of the sponsors of trb were Baha'is? How many were not > >Baha'is? > > Dear Pat, > > Really the question is not particularly relevant as it is perfectly > legit for any non-Baha'i who wishes to attack the Faith to vote for a > group that is being created to discuss it. It is not a group FOR > Baha'is, it is a group for discussion OF the Baha'i Faith. The only > thing that saddens me is that most of the time the Baha'i participants > are on the defensive -- responding to posts -- rather than starting and > sustaining discussions on the teachings of Baha'u'llah. > > >Was there _any_ reason to support the creation of a redundant > >unmoderated, predominately English langauge Baha'i newsgroup, beyond > >your own sense of self-gratification? > > There is no reason why the group should be just English language. Many > newsgroups carry French, Spanish, Japanese, Russian and other language > messages, often using non-roman alphabets, amongst the English messages. > As it happens, this one doesn't at this time, but it will happen > eventually. > > And, if it was for Mr Glaysher's satisfaction, it was for mine also as I > was a co-proponent during the 2nd try to get it on line. In the event, > I was so disgusted by some of the messages that were being posted during > the 3rd discussion that I did not vote (I could not bring myself to vote > NO -- and anyway that would have been dishonest). > > [snip] > > >I would suggest, given that so much of the discussion of the merits of > >trb was done at arb, the whole point of having trb was largely and > >obviously invalidated during the discussion process. > > The discussion was across several Baha'i lists, eventually dying a > natural death, as well as the usual Usenet news.admin.* groups (sorry, I > forget the names of the groups now) and even spilled over into other > relevant NGs. During the 2nd discussion I received complaints from > several people who were unable to access ARB that they were not able to > participate in the discussion. I was able to redirect them to the > news.admin NG where some then gave a valuable contribution to the > discussion, from both sides. > > >It would seem to > >me that even though most Baha'is who voted, voted for it, it would not > >have gotten the 200 votes to form, were it not for your instigating the > >"Muslims for trb movement" and the general ignorance of the voters of > >the existence of an unmoderated forum on the Baha'i Faith. > > As implied above, many people cannot access ARB (or for that matter much > at all of the alt.* hierarchy), especially those who rely on employers' > networks. > > >Muslims have an ari, but I know of no tri. Buddhists have a trb, but > >not an arb. Is Baha'i so much more important than general purpose > >Buddhism or Islam, that it needs two unmoderated fora? > > It could also be argued that TRB (or ARB) should have been set up before > (or at the same time as) SRB, as is, I understand, more normal practice. > As it was, ARB was set up by a non-Baha'i in disgust at the massive NO > vote that ended the 1st attempt to set up TRB. Usenetizens will tell > you that such a massive vote is very rare on Usenet. > > I feel that whether TRB or ARB is required or otherwise is no longer an > issue. They exist and will not go away, so it is up to us to make them > work as havens of peace and bastions of unity and truth. We should look > forward to the future and put aside the past. > > With love, > > Chris. > -- > Chris Manvell Tel.:01471-822 317 > Breacais Iosal, Isle of Skye, Scotland. Fax.:0870-056 8081 > Web site: > ABS(ESE): /absese/>, DAYSPRING: /dayspring/>, UK BAHA'I LINKS: /lynx/> > ISLANDS OF THE NORTH SEA: /islands/>, SAPLING PUBLICATIONS: /sapling/> > SGRIOBTIUREAN CREIDIMH NAM BAHA-I (Scots and Irish Gaelic with English > Translations) ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 10:34 AM Subject: Re: slander and bullying by so called liberals The "assholes" are the nine members of the uhj.... And the Bahai fundamentalists who attempt to USE Iranians on soc.culture.iran to attack and silence me. Notice they've never complained about other Bahais posting to s.c.i.... What really worries them is that the counter on my website has gone up 500 hits since the New Year, that's potentially 500 more people who are aware of the lies and deceit of the uhj and its mistreatment of its own members.... See my regular REPOSTS for details.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 10:35 AM Subject: Re: Bahais Begin New Millennium by Lying OR Inflated Bahai Statistics given to Washington Post "The Bahai Technique": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Henry Patrick wrote in message news:387C9CF5.77E492C4@patrick.inc... > You get thrill by an automated response to your comment, wowo, you must love > those occupant letters!!! > > Seriously the active versus total membership could be questioned for all > religions. > > Are there really 14+ million Jews keeping kashrut? How many of those 14+ > million have been inside a Synagogue in 1999? > > How many of the 1000 million Roman Catholics have had eucharist in 1999? Had a > confession? > > Really Fredrick, you've become a real looney toon here, why must Baha'is prove > every member of their religion attends Feast regularly, when all the other > religions numbers are just accepted? Why aren't you questioning all the > figures? Aren't they all inflated by your criteria? > > Patrick Henry wrote: > > > It appears that the truth of the indisputable facts may finally > > come to light on this issue. > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Patrick Henry wrote in message > > news:s7epcnlqoj867@corp.supernews.com... > > > FYI > > > > > > A response from the Encyclopedia of Britannica: > > > > > > --- > > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > > > > > Thank you for your feedback regarding the Britannica.com site. We value > > and > > > appreciate all comments from our visitors. Your suggestions have been > > > forwarded to the appropriate department. > > > > > > Thank you again for contacting Britannica.com. > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > Jin > > > Britannica.com Customer Service > > > www.britannica.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 10:39 AM Subject: Re: Liberalism I agree fully with you regarding just about everything you say, especially about the narrowing of Baha'u'llah's vision.... Fundamentalist Bahais relie on the fact that most non-Bahais really don't understand what's going on.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:85ikd6$fhe$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8501hh$82g$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > > > Dear Dave, > > I hope your finger is feeling better. Ouch! > > I think this discussion is evolving to a point where we will have to > agree to disagree. However, what is sad is that the Baha'i Faith is > choosing a path that will lead it to remain a closed-in little sect. > All world religions have great diversity of views within them. What the > Baha'i Faith was supposed to do was bring all that diversity under one > center. Unity without diversity is meaningless; anyone can claim that > they have that. We all bring our own cultural baggage with us, Western > liberal or not; I thought the whole point was to unify these around a > center that would allow different cultures to flourish. > > What I want to see is a healing of the wounds caused by the UHJ's > actions against people I believe to be innocent. I believe that because > I can find no evidence of their guilt, and since the "crime" is the > public holding of unacceptable opinions, much of the evidence concerning > these cases is publicly available. Baha'u'llah has said "The essence of > all that We have revealed for thee is Justice.", and the concept of > justice is very often linked to independent thought: "See with your own > eyes and not with the eyes of others", "Look into all things with a > searching eye." So I'm looking, and justice is not what I see. > > The confidentiality you mention is to allow Assembly members, or members > of the House to consult freely, and also to protect individuals who may > be consulting about a personal matter. Both the Guardian and the UHJ > warned against creating an "atmosphere of secrecy". I question whether > or not the rights of the accused can be adequately protected if judicial > procedings are secret. In any case, whether open or closed, there does > need to be a procedure whereby the accused can defend himself. Saying > "Stop posting your emails or you'll be declared a covenant-breaker" > isn't a procedure; it's a threat. How do you defend yourself against > that? How is this justice? > > I don't know what you meant in your other post when you said "heading > down a path that leads to being declared a covenant-breaker." > Covenant-breaking is a very specific offense: it is laying claim to an > alternative authority, or a person who accepts such an alternative > claim, or a person who refuses to dissociate themselves from people > doing one of those two things. Posting one's opinions doesn't qualify > as covenant-breaking. In fact, it is clear that the new policy, > instituted with the McKenny case, of simply declaring someone a > non-Baha'i, is a way of getting rid of someone who is manifestly not a > covenant-breaker. This is an innovation, and was never done during the > ministries of 'Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi. > > Juan Cole was threatened with being called a covenant-breaker, but I > haven't found one shred of evidence that he was "heading down a path" in > that direction, and I've read a whole lot of what he has written. I'll > admit I haven't read much of the old Talisman archives (time is short > and those archives are long), but I sure don't find anything > contravening the Baha'i covenant in the stuff he's written since. > Neither does the UHJ apparently, because a covenant-breaker is a > covenant-breaker whether he appears on the rolls or not. Other Baha'i > academics have been subject to the same threat; no one that I know of > has ever been declared a covenant-breaker. It's just used as a threat > to shut people up. That's my objection. Either a person has broken the > covenant, or he hasn't, and if not the threat that he is "suspect" is > just browbeating. > > And, by the way, what other "positions contrary to Baha'i law and the > Covenant" exist besides that of covenant-breaking? Baha'is have the > right to free expression; Baha'u'llah said so, 'Abdu'l-Baha said so, and > Shoghi Effendi said so. Actually, so has the UHJ, but it has, > apparently, decided to put some arbitrary limits on it. And in defining > such "positions" as unacceptable, the UHJ is straying into the realm of > interpretation, which it is not scripturally authorized to do. All I > want of Baha'i institutions is that they conduct themselves according to > Baha'i principles. You have said that these actions are just because > Baha'u'llah's laws require it. The only required case of expulsion in > Baha'i law is covenant-breaking. The UHJ has decided, under its > constitutional mandate to set membership requirements, to use its > authority against people who hold unacceptable opinions, in other word, > heretics. And this is a very frightening development, and bodes ill for > the future of the Faith. > > You said that the Baha'i Faith should not be characterized as liberal or > conservative, but that "It is its own unique shade of thought." The > Baha'i Faith did not come into existence with no roots in the past. All > the Manifestations of God revealed their message within a particular > cultural and social context. To say that the Baha'i Faith is entirely > unique is to deny the unity of religion. Most of Baha'u'llah's > teachings can be found in Islam, one place or another, and the current > emphasis on unchallengeable religious authority is Shi'ih in its > origins. In fact, what is surprising, really, about Baha'u'llah's > teachings, from a historical and cultural standpoint is just how liberal > they are. It is quite remarkable that a claimant to religious > revelation in the context of nineteenth century Shi'ih Islam renounced > any claim to temporal authority, and allowed His followers to make > decisions on consultative bodies. Baha'u'llah promoted constitutional > monarchy as the ideal form of government, and sharply criticized the > despostic governments of His day, warning that in Iran the government > would be replaced by a "democracy of the people." This is hardly an > anti-liberal position. In fact, I don't know where this anti-Western > sentiment current among Baha'is comes from, because it is sure not > evident in the Writings of Baha'u'llah or 'Abdu'l-Baha. I'm not saying > that "Baha'u'llah meant for the Faith to be American liberalism"; what I > am saying is that there was supposed to be room for the whole world > under the umbrella of this faith, and now there isn't. What is unique > about Baha'u'llah is His breadth of vision, and what is sad about recent > events in the Baha'i faith is the narrowing of that vision. > > Love, Karen > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 10:46 AM Subject: Re: Bahaism, . Many of these incidents of suppression are documented on my website. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm wrote in message news:84vesm$p77$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Dear qizilbash: > > For some years now I have enjoyed your erudite posts on SCI and > especially the learned perspective you bring to bare on the > subject of Iranian `irfan (sufism) and Shi'ism - subjects very dear to > my heart since they were the primary object of my studies. While I might > disagree with some of your approaches on issues, I like what you write. > On the issue of what is a cult and if the Baha'i religion counts as > one, however, I have some minor disagreements with what you're saying > (but only minor). But before I go on, let me digress a bit and just say > a few words about what has happened internally in the Baha'i religion > that has led over a dozen people such as myself to distance ourselves > and leave the religion altogether. > To put it in a nutshell, many of us who publicly left the Baha'i > faith over the past several years have increasingly felt that the > leadership of the Baha'i administration (those in charge) have > increasingly been taking the religion and its community in a very > narrow, ultra-conservative direction and have side stepped essential > Baha'i teachings and principles in the process, and as such made the > religion highly authoritarian (which it was never meant to be). The > sociologist of religion Max Weber called this process "institution > building" and the "routinization of charisma," which as you know > Shi'ism has been experiencing from Safavid times and earlier itself (I > refer you Sa'id Amir Arjomand's outstanding study "The Shadow of God and > the Hidden Imam"). Sufficeth to say, that this has been going on for > some years now, but in Spetember 1994 a group of Baha'i academics and > intellectuals under the patronage of Indiana University-Bloomington > professor John Walbridge (then Associate Professor of Islamic > Philosophy in the department of Near East Languages and Cultures/and now > a former Baha'i) put together an email list called "Talisman" for > learned discussion of issues related to Baha'i history, doctrine, > philosophy, religionwissenschaften (i.e. Western academic, critical > methodological study of religion, otherwise known as the "science of > religion" or religious studies). Participants included dozens of > prominent Baha'i academics and intellectuals, and the list's first few > months of existence were generally fruitful, as the content and scope of > discussions was generally high (some called it the cutting-edge of > Baha'i scholarship). After several months, "Talisman" became the > negative focus of the American national and international Baha'i > administration, and they began targetting and attacking some of us as > dissidents and heretics for daring to broach subjects that are > considered taboo by lay and pious and conservative rank-and-file Baha'is > within and without the leadership. To make a long story short, push came > to shove and several of us left (one of us under duress for fearing to > be publicly labelled a covenant breaker/nAqiz-e misAq which is > equivalent to, if not higher than, having a takfir passed against you by > a marja' at-taqlid in Shi'ism), and a few more of us (like Michael > McKinney) were just thrown out and declared non-Baha'is for believing > that since the Baha'i principles stated the absolute equality of women > and men, then there was absolutely no justifiable reason to exclude > women from the highest governing body of the Baha'i religion, the > Universal House of Justice. I resigned in protest for many personal > reasons, but primarily at the way academics and intellectuals were being > treated who didn't tow the "party line," the lack of real democracy, > pluralism and freedom of conscience within the Baha'i community, and > especially because I felt that the Baha'i administration was behaving no > better than the Shi'i or Catholic ecclesiastical order (something the > prophet founder of the Baha'i faith, Baha'u'llah, would have looked at > with the greatest dismay). > My reading of the Baha'i texts as well as many other former (and > some current) Baha'i intellectuals, is that Baha'u'llah and his son > `Abdu'l-Baha were communitarian liberals and that the Baha'i teachings, > aside from reiterating the best that mystical Islam and esoteric Shi'ism > has to offer on the spiritual side of things, also upholds the > principles of democracy, liberalism, parliamentary rule and consultation > (i.e. mashvirat) as the best form of polity and rule, pluralism and the > sanctity of the individual human conscience, and above all intellectual > freedom (this is echoed in the Baha'i principle of the "unfettered > independent investigation of the truth," i.e ta'ri-e haqiqat). One needs > to look no further than Baha'u'llah's "Kitab-i-Iqan" and "Kalimat-e > Maknuneh/Hidden Words" to see these principles expounded, and > `Abdu'l-Baha's "Resaleh-ye Asrar-e Madaniyyeh/Secret of Divine > Civilization," and much, much more, to see the above principles layed > out and upholded in full. > One wise person once made the poignant comment to me that with > Baha'u'lah one virtually sees a marriage between Thomas Jefferson and > Ibn `Arabi, and that Baha'u'llah did not envision simply a secular > democracy nor a theocracy as the future of humanity, but a > "theophanocracy" (rule by the "theophanies," which can loosely be > translated in farsi as 'hukumat-e tajjaliyyat-e haqq). I can go on and > on and on for days just on this topic alone, but sufficeth to say that > the current generation in prominence within the Baha'i administration do > not see things this way and have gone out of their way to marginalize, > label, blacklist and throw out anyone who disagrees with their own > narrow, hyper-conservative and overly sanitized vision. > Yes, the organisational and corporatist manner in which the Baha'i > religion is currently being run in the West definitely demonstrates > cult-like aspects. There's no doubting it. But I would argue no more > than most organised religions, and certainly not as much as Catholicism, > Mormonism (which the current Baha'i organization mirrors in many > aspects) or mainstream Twelver Shi'ism. This is not meant to offend you, > which in any case I trust I haven't, but a considered observation. > Baha'i currently exhibits the same sort of triumphalistic exclusivism > about itself and the world, as Chrisitianity and Islam (and above all > Shi'ism) does with its. > My personal take on this is that such is the phenomenon of > organised religion tout court and communities of faith in general, which > ultimately cannot be escaped given the human condition. All of the > worlds religions have been somehow fated to fall into the traps of > history and hence descend into authoritarianism, triumphalism and forms > of religious fascism. People can point out exceptions, but those > examples in history have always been that, exceptions, and never the > rule. The question for me these days is whether a truly universal > spirituality transcending sectarian barriers while upholding paramount > principles such as democracy, liberalism, pluralism, parliamentarism, > freedom of conscience, gender equality, etc, is truly possible in our > world? I still haven't answered this to my own satisfaction, without > minimizing or maximizing one for the other, but let's just say that that > was the essential vision that drove and animated the Baha'i founders and > their teachings. Perhaps as you pointed out the Baha'i faith might go > the way of that other universal aspiring religion in history, > Manichaeanism (which is a better comparison in my opinion, rather than > Mazdakism, which was its offshoot), but maybe not. Who knows? I've > ceased making such predictions anymore. I think the point if there is a > universal God who created all things, if one is a believer, is what does > it ultimately matter anyway in the great scheme of things what community > of faith one belongs to and how one chooses to believe and worship > Him/Her/It? Isn't one's life and its impact on others and how one left > the world a better place when one leaves it, more important than whether > one was a pious Muslim, Baha'i, Christian, Buddhist, Mooney, Jew, Branch > Davidian or whatever??? Have we as a race not in fact outgrown the > confining barriers of sectarianism and organised religion? There's a > Sufi poem by a deceased Nimatullahi pir that I'll leave you with, which > goes something like this: > > dar keshvar-e faqr joz fana chizi nist > dar sowme'eh joz zohd o riya chizi nist > az bahr-e sa'adat bashar dar een `alam > joz khedmat-e makhluq-e khoda chizi nist.... > > Anyway, I'm rambling now (quoting Sufi poetry and all!), and I hope > you'll forgive my long post. > > khoda negadar! > > Nima > > > > > "qizilbash" wrote: > > > > The IRI authorities took this cult/religion(depending on your pov, my > > pov is a cult) too seriously, and injected actually alittle blood in > > the cult. It really didn't deserve such a serious attention. It is > > actually a humarous in a sad way. IRI had a golden oppurtinity in my > > opinion to end this cult, by asking for serious debate to be > publicized > > on TV and newspapers(just like what was done with Mazdak). Logically: > > religions that are not authentic are created by humans who are not > > perfect, and will contradict themselves. My perspective on Bahaism > is > > like that of Mazdakism, a religious movement within shi'ism(shaikhism) > > which was falsified(babism) inorder to provide a cure for the > > social-illness(bahaism) during the time of Qajar. Unfortunately both > > the muslim clerics at that time and at this time, did not settle this > > problem logically. > > > > Here are tales from two former Bahais, which show the humor side. > > > > extracted from: > > from : https://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3016/main.htm > > > > "Since leaving the Baha'i Faith almost five years ago, I have long > > wanted to have the opportunity to talk to people familiar with the > > Baha'i community. I want to ask them whether my experiences with the > > community were some uncommon phenomena or representative of the faith > > in general. After reading Tim Mulligan's posting and all of the > > responses, I sigh, and remember clearly why I left without word or > > explanation, perhaps a heretic but probably still > > signed up on someone's card count. > > > > I don't know exactly how or why my ex-husband became Baha'i, but I > > suspect it was for the favors that were offered him. I myself recall a > > Baha'i agreeing to sell us a vehicle on-time at a steal of a price, > but > > only if I signed my card. When my (now)-ex-husband told me to sign, I > > did. > > > > I don't know exactly how or why I became a teacher for the faith > during > > my first community meeting. Perhaps it was because no-one else would > > watch all the children as the adults had their meetings. I remember > > that I had no idea what the faith was about. They said "that's okay, > > here's a book and invite non-member children also." When my children's > > classes drew dozens of non-member children, the Baha'is wanted to > teach > > them and took my classes > > away. > > > > I don't know exactly how or why the spiritual assembly decided that > > they should support my ex-husband after he was jailed for assault and > > stalking me. Perhaps it was because I would not tell them about the > > incident myself. I remember feeling embarrassed about the whole thing > > and then getting very, very angry as the "Community" went to court to > > testify about how I was setting my ex-husband up. > > > > Even now, at the university I attend, I see these young faces at their > > booth on the commons, with pamphlets talking about unity and the > > equality of men and women. I want to walk up to them and ask if my > > experience was some surreal fluke. But the closer I look, the younger > > their faces appear to me and I know they probably could never > > understand what I was asking. Questions like, Is a faith a reflection > > of its members, or the reverse? What is the purpose of a community > > meeting if half of your community is alienated? What can a spiritual > > assembly really know about a marriage? How can a man and woman be > > treated equally, if a man takes on a "year of patience" for his > > errant wife to come to her senses and do what she is told once again? > > Do you really think some words in book by Abdul Baha can sooth pain > > like this? > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Kathleen R. Mccolloch-Bodi > > Formerly of Juneau, Alaska > > " > > > > here is another one: > > "Well, it's been a year since I left the Baha'i Faith after having > > been a member for only several months. I thought I would commemorate > > the return of my membership card by recounting why I left. > > > > First, let me say that, with hindsight, I can't imagine why I ever > > joined the faith. I had sworn off religion, but something in the > > advance literature (the pamphlets, the introductory books) seemed to > > superficially allay concerns I had that the multiplicity of religions > > signaled their invalidity. I thought to myself, "Here at last is a > > tolerant religion that reconciles the differences. They say they don't > > proselytize, and they affirm the truth of all the great religions." I > > had some lingering doubts, especially regarding the inclusion of > Buddha, > > a man who refused to discuss metaphysics and who described Brahman as > > deluded about his divinity, as a Manifestation of God. Also, the > Baha'i > > exegesis of the New Testament was tortured to say the least. But I > > jumped in anyway. > > > > When I got to participate in actual feasts as a declared Baha'i, the > > picture changed. There was almost zero attention paid to the spiritual > > formation of members, especially new members. The unrelenting focus > was > > on getting new members. The hackneyed phrase "entry by troops" was > > mindlessly and continuously repeated like a mantra. A goal was set by > > my state's Bahai's on the number of firesides to be held by > > Baha'u'llah's birthday. This rapacious attitude turned my stomach, > > reminding me of Jehovah's Witnesses. I thought the Baha'i Faith was > > tolerant toward other religions. Didn't this push for conversions > imply > > intolerance? > > > > For this reason, I looked forward to my first attendance at a > > "deepening." I thought, "Now at last I'll find some spiritual > > substance." What did I find at the deepening? A videotape of a Baha'i > > National Spiritual Assembly meeting, where every speaker to a man went > > on and on about getting new members. > > > > Oh, how could I forget those memorable feasts where a tape recorded > > message would be played, usually, of course, on the subject either of > > getting new members or contributing to the Baha'i Funds. I felt like I > > was one of Charlie's Angels. (Can't you just imagine Bob Henderson, > > lounging by the pool, sipping a (non-alcoholic) drink and dictating to > > the tape recorder?) > > > > I thought to myself: Are these people crazy? How in the world can > > they expect to keep the new members that they do recruit if all that > the > > new members will encounter upon joining is an incessant demand to > > "teach" and get new members? Oh, and that's another thing. I have to > > laugh when I think back to what the "advance" literature said about > > Baha'is not proselytizing. I discovered, alas too late, that there is > a > > particular and peculiar Baha'i definition of "proselytize," which > means > > "to convert by force or threats." Oh, I see. So the happy-talk about > > not proselytizing meant, "Hey folks! We don't convert by force!" Wow. > > What an enticement. I found out that instead, Baha'is "teach." That's > > like saying, "I didn't abort my child. I terminated a pregnancy." > > > > In short, I found that the Baha'i Faith was the religious equivalent > > of AmWay. > > > > Then of course I found that lots of little omissions had been made > > in introductory literature. They don't tell you how many wives > > Baha'u'llah had. Or that he was a midget. > > Okay, that's not fair (although it's true -- didn't you know > > that you were praying to a midget?). One "teaching" book by Gary > > Matthews lauds the perspicacity of Baha'u'llah in writing that "every > > star hath its planets," omitting that he says immediately thereafter > > "and every planet its creatures." Stuff like that began to burn my ass > > big time. > > > > Contradictions began to emerge. I compared the "Tablet of the True > > Seeker" in the Kitab-i-Iqan, which enjoins the independent > > investigation of truth, with the dire, shrill threats hurled at > > unbelievers in the Kitab-i-Aqdas and could only shake my head in > > wonder. There was so muchexplaining and back-filling in Baha'i > > propaganda. For example, in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, Baha'u'llah says that > > men can have two wives. Later, Abdul Baha says that this meant men > > could only have one wife. Let the mind games begin! > > > > Anyway, it quickly dawned on me that this religion was going nowhere > > fast. Its stated objective of becoming a world religion and > > establishing a world Baha'i government is ludicrous. It will never > > happen. The early Christians expected Jesus (the real Jesus, not > > Baha'u'llah-as-Jesus) to come back during their lifetimes; they were > > wrong, and they're still waiting. Now the Bahai's are waiting for > entry > > by troops, the collapse of world civilization, and the triumphant > > takeover of the world by Bahai's. It's not happening. I don't care how > > many times Abdul Baha appears. In any case, he's got lots of > > competition from the Virgin Mary, the Ascended Masters, and little > gray > > aliens. > > > > That brings me to a little metaphysical speculation. I'm sure there > > have been apparitions of Abdul Baha, as well as amazing > synchronicities > > that Baha'is call "confirmations." But, folks, phenomena like this are > > reported in all religions and spiritual paths. The world is awash in > > reports of these types of things. Moreover, there has been a gang of > > self-proclaimed god-men even in this century, from Reverend Moon to > Adi > > Da, each with their fanatical followers willing to follow the leader > > all the way to martyrdom. This world, and the spiritual world, is a > > very complicated and diverse place. In ways that we don't fully > > understand, > > human beings can tap into spiritual realities and develop very real > > psychic powers. In Hinduism, these are called "siddhis," and they've > > been documented for several thousand years. They are not proof that > > those possessed of them are worthy of worship. In fact, the spiritual > > literature warns about the ego-inflation that can result from their > > exercise. It seems to me that Baha'u'llah didn't heed that warning. > > > > Anyway, I finally decided that I had to return my membership card to > > Bob Henderson. Bob, if you're reading this, I wish you all the best. I > > assure you that I will continue to wash my feet every day, not only in > > the summer, but all year round. And don't forget: ENTRY BY TROOPS! > > ENTRY BY TROOPS! > > > > Tim Mulligan > > tmulligan@central.uh.edu > > " > > > > Here is an interesting tale from a convert to Islam from Bahaism. > > It is from the same site: > > > > -- > > Free audio & video emails, greeting cards and forums > > Talkway - https://www.talkway.com - Talk more ways (sm) > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 9:32 AM To: Juan Cole Cc: mdiller@us.britannica.com Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica Juan, Thanks for contacting the Encyclopedia Britannica. I myself doubt 5 million Bahais exist. The statistics for India and other countries of the developing world are certainly inflated and they usually have only the vaugest idea of what they're doing when they sign a Bahai card, never or seldom to show up again for any Bahai activity. Anything below 6.7 million, though, is headed in the right direction. Obviously, the Bahai institutions are unreliable. Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Juan Cole To: Frederick Glaysher Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 9:39 PM Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica > > Thanks, Fred. I wrote them that even 5 million is an exaggeration. > > cheers JRIC > > > ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 10:58 AM To: Juan Cole Cc: CTrumbul@eb.com; JSturgis@eb.com; mdiller@us.britannica.com Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica Juan & mdiller@us.britannica.com Upon further reflection, a better estimate might be arrived at for true Baha'i membership statistics by extrapolating what is generally accepted regarding USA Bahai membership. The Bahai administration regularly claims 140,000 US Bahais. Having never seen such large numbers of US Bahais, most thoughtful Bahais prefer the figure of 60,000 US Bahais based on the widely known existence of actual mailing addresses for that number, many of whom though never participate in Bahai activities, being regarded as "inactive." If we subtract the "inactive" Bahais from the 60,000, we have the figure of approximately only 25,000 Bahais who show up regularly. Taking these two widely held figures, I calculate 43% and 19% of the 140,000 claimed by the Bahai administration: 140,000 x 43 % = 60,200 addresses 140,000 X 19% = 26,600 Applying that formula to the similarly inflated figure of worldwide Bahai membership of 6.7 million, I believe the true numbers to be close to the following: 6.7 million x 43% = 2,881,000 known "addresses" worldwide 6.7 million X 19% = "active" 1,273,000 worldwide Round up, giving the benefit of the doubt, and probably a maximum of 3 million Bahais at best exist worldwide, especially since there are essentially no Bahais in Europe beyond a negligible few hundred to a thousand in most countries. Many Bahais have for decades been suspicious of the administrations claims of millions in the developing world. Hope this helps the Encyclopedia Britannica in its effort to ascertain a reliable figure. Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ ----- Original Message ----- From: FG To: Juan Cole Cc: Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 9:32 AM Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica > Juan, > > Thanks for contacting the Encyclopedia Britannica. > > I myself doubt 5 million Bahais exist. The statistics for India > and other countries of the developing world are certainly > inflated and they usually have only the vaugest idea of what > they're doing when they sign a Bahai card, never or seldom > to show up again for any Bahai activity. > > Anything below 6.7 million, though, is headed in the right > direction. Obviously, the Bahai institutions are unreliable. > > Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Juan Cole > To: Frederick Glaysher > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 9:39 PM > Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > > > Thanks, Fred. I wrote them that even 5 million is an exaggeration. > > > > cheers JRIC > > > > > > > ---------- From: Juan Cole[SMTP:jrcole@umich.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 4:53 PM To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica Dear Fred: Thanks for your messages. I suggest we let EB percolate for a while and leave them alone lest they become so annoyed with us that they become uncooperative. cheers Juan ---------- From: [SMTP:earthrisepress@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 8:16 AM To: Juan Cole Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica Juan, I've sent them only two messages. The first pointing out that The Washington Post had assumed, as many do, their 6.7 million figure to be correct. The second stating my estimate would be closer to 3 million. I don't believe that's too many. They genuinely seem to be in search of the truth and are now aware of the complexities involved. I see no signs that they're becoming "annoyed with us." Quite the reverse. They requested my help and referred them initially to you. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: Juan Cole To: Frederick Glaysher Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 4:53 PM Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica > > Dear Fred: > > Thanks for your messages. > > I suggest we let EB percolate for a while and leave them alone lest they > become so annoyed with us that they become uncooperative. > > cheers Juan > > > ---------- From: [SMTP:earthrisepress@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 8:16 AM To: mdiller@us.britannica.com Cc: CTrumbul@eb.com; JSturgis@eb.com Subject: Baha'i membership - On further reflection, I should like to add just two points: 1) A number of Bahais or ex-Bahais who worked at the NSA have stated online over the past years that they knew for a fact that only about 60,000 addresses existed for American Bahais-- all other snail mail would bounce and, hence, the 60,000 figure. 2) TENS of THOUSANDS of people have entered the Bahai faith and then left, often without caring enough to bother with officially "resigning." It would appear approximately 80,000 of them are still being counted in the US. Both facts should be considered by the Encyclopedia of Britannica when attempting to determine worldwide membership, and both probably corroborate further my estimates based on 43% and 19% according to known discrepancies in the enrollment figures for the United States. Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s7uhsotioj854@corp.supernews.com... > Juan & mdiller@us.britannica.com > > Upon further reflection, a better estimate might be arrived > at for true Baha'i membership statistics by extrapolating > what is generally accepted regarding USA Bahai membership. > The Bahai administration regularly claims 140,000 US Bahais. > Having never seen such large numbers of US Bahais, most > thoughtful Bahais prefer the figure of 60,000 US Bahais based > on the widely known existence of actual mailing addresses for > that number, many of whom though never participate in Bahai > activities, being regarded as "inactive." If we subtract the "inactive" > Bahais from the 60,000, we have the figure of approximately > only 25,000 Bahais who show up regularly. Taking these two > widely held figures, I calculate 43% and 19% of the 140,000 > claimed by the Bahai administration: > > 140,000 x 43 % = 60,200 addresses > 140,000 X 19% = 26,600 > > Applying that formula to the similarly inflated figure of > worldwide Bahai membership of 6.7 million, I believe the > true numbers to be close to the following: > > 6.7 million x 43% = 2,881,000 known "addresses" worldwide > 6.7 million X 19% = "active" 1,273,000 worldwide > > Round up, giving the benefit of the doubt, and probably > a maximum of 3 million Bahais at best exist worldwide, especially > since there are essentially no Bahais in Europe beyond a negligible > few hundred to a thousand in most countries. Many Bahais have > for decades been suspicious of the administrations claims of millions > in the developing world. > > Hope this helps the Encyclopedia Britannica in its effort to ascertain > a reliable figure. > > Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: FG > To: Juan Cole > Cc: > Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 9:32 AM > Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > Juan, > > > > Thanks for contacting the Encyclopedia Britannica. > > > > I myself doubt 5 million Bahais exist. The statistics for India > > and other countries of the developing world are certainly > > inflated and they usually have only the vaugest idea of what > > they're doing when they sign a Bahai card, never or seldom > > to show up again for any Bahai activity. > > > > Anything below 6.7 million, though, is headed in the right > > direction. Obviously, the Bahai institutions are unreliable. > > > > Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Juan Cole > > To: Frederick Glaysher > > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 9:39 PM > > Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Fred. I wrote them that even 5 million is an exaggeration. > > > > > > cheers JRIC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:glaysher@mi-mls.com] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 8:40 AM To: Subject: False Bahai Membership Statistics I should like to add two points: 1) A number of Bahais or ex-Bahais who worked at the NSA have stated online over the past years that they knew for a fact that only about 60,000 addresses existed for American Bahais-- all other snail mail would bounce.... Hence, the 60,000 figure. 2) TENS of THOUSANDS of people have entered the Bahai faith and then left, often without caring enough to bother with officially "resigning." It would appear approximately 80,000 of them.... Both facts should be considered by the Encyclopedia of Britannica when attempting to determine worldwide membership and probably corroborate further my estimates based on 43% and 19% according to known discrepancies in the United States enrollment figures. Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s7uhsotioj854@corp.supernews.com... > Juan & mdiller@us.britannica.com > > Upon further reflection, a better estimate might be arrived > at for true Baha'i membership statistics by extrapolating > what is generally accepted regarding USA Bahai membership. > The Bahai administration regularly claims 140,000 US Bahais. > Having never seen such large numbers of US Bahais, most > thoughtful Bahais prefer the figure of 60,000 US Bahais based > on the widely known existence of actual mailing addresses for > that number, many of whom though never participate in Bahai > activities, being regarded as "inactive." If we subtract the "inactive" > Bahais from the 60,000, we have the figure of approximately > only 25,000 Bahais who show up regularly. Taking these two > widely held figures, I calculate 43% and 19% of the 140,000 > claimed by the Bahai administration: > > 140,000 x 43 % = 60,200 addresses > 140,000 X 19% = 26,600 > > Applying that formula to the similarly inflated figure of > worldwide Bahai membership of 6.7 million, I believe the > true numbers to be close to the following: > > 6.7 million x 43% = 2,881,000 known "addresses" worldwide > 6.7 million X 19% = "active" 1,273,000 worldwide > > Round up, giving the benefit of the doubt, and probably > a maximum of 3 million Bahais at best exist worldwide, especially > since there are essentially no Bahais in Europe beyond a negligible > few hundred to a thousand in most countries. Many Bahais have > for decades been suspicious of the administrations claims of millions > in the developing world. > > Hope this helps the Encyclopedia Britannica in its effort to ascertain > a reliable figure. > > Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: FG > To: Juan Cole > Cc: > Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 9:32 AM > Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > Juan, > > > > Thanks for contacting the Encyclopedia Britannica. > > > > I myself doubt 5 million Bahais exist. The statistics for India > > and other countries of the developing world are certainly > > inflated and they usually have only the vaugest idea of what > > they're doing when they sign a Bahai card, never or seldom > > to show up again for any Bahai activity. > > > > Anything below 6.7 million, though, is headed in the right > > direction. Obviously, the Bahai institutions are unreliable. > > > > Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Juan Cole > > To: Frederick Glaysher > > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 9:39 PM > > Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Fred. I wrote them that even 5 million is an exaggeration. > > > > > > cheers JRIC > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---- Juan & mdiller@us.britannica.com Upon further reflection, a better estimate might be arrived at for true Baha'i membership statistics by extrapolating what is generally accepted regarding USA Bahai membership. The Bahai administration regularly claims 140,000 US Bahais. Having never seen such large numbers of US Bahais, most thoughtful Bahais prefer the figure of 60,000 US Bahais based on the widely known existence of actual mailing addresses for that number, many of whom though never participate in Bahai activities, being regarded as "inactive." If we subtract the "inactive" Bahais from the 60,000, we have the figure of approximately only 25,000 Bahais who show up regularly. Taking these two widely held figures, I calculate 43% and 19% of the 140,000 claimed by the Bahai administration: 140,000 x 43 % = 60,200 addresses 140,000 X 19% = 26,600 Applying that formula to the similarly inflated figure of worldwide Bahai membership of 6.7 million, I believe the true numbers to be close to the following: 6.7 million x 43% = 2,881,000 known "addresses" worldwide 6.7 million X 19% = "active" 1,273,000 worldwide Round up, giving the benefit of the doubt, and probably a maximum of 3 million Bahais at best exist worldwide, especially since there are essentially no Bahais in Europe beyond a negligible few hundred to a thousand in most countries. Many Bahais have for decades been suspicious of the administrations claims of millions in the developing world. Hope this helps the Encyclopedia Britannica in its effort to ascertain a reliable figure. Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ ----- Original Message ----- From: FG To: Juan Cole Cc: Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 9:32 AM Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica > Juan, > > Thanks for contacting the Encyclopedia Britannica. > > I myself doubt 5 million Bahais exist. The statistics for India > and other countries of the developing world are certainly > inflated and they usually have only the vaugest idea of what > they're doing when they sign a Bahai card, never or seldom > to show up again for any Bahai activity. > > Anything below 6.7 million, though, is headed in the right > direction. Obviously, the Bahai institutions are unreliable. > > Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Juan Cole > To: Frederick Glaysher > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 9:39 PM > Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > > > Thanks, Fred. I wrote them that even 5 million is an exaggeration. > > > > cheers JRIC > > > > > > > ---- Juan, Thanks for contacting the Encyclopedia Britannica. I myself doubt 5 million Bahais exist. The statistics for India and other countries of the developing world are certainly inflated and they usually have only the vaugest idea of what they're doing when they sign a Bahai card, never or seldom to show up again for any Bahai activity. 3 to 4 million would still be too many. Anything below 6.7 million, though, is headed in the right direction. Obviously, the Bahai institutions are unreliable. Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Juan Cole To: Frederick Glaysher Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 9:39 PM Subject: Re: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica > > Thanks, Fred. I wrote them that even 5 million is an exaggeration. > > cheers JRIC > > > Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s7epcnlqoj867@corp.supernews.com... > FYI > > A response from the Encyclopedia of Britannica: > > --- > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your feedback regarding the Britannica.com site. We value and > appreciate all comments from our visitors. Your suggestions have been > forwarded to the appropriate department. > > Thank you again for contacting Britannica.com. > > > Sincerely, > Jin > Britannica.com Customer Service > www.britannica.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: FG > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:33 AM > To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com > Subject: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica > > > FYI > > --- > Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. > There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years > about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number > is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the > global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as > Latin America are often exagerrated. > > cheers, > Nima > > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote regard Washington Post article: > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > > idx.html > > > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > > > Patrick Henry wrote in message > news:s77nkudsnfg118@corp.supernews.com... > > "Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private > > possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what > > further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the > day > > of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the > > comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience > > are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] > > servants." > > > > Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote in message > news:84sve5$3um$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > "Spam and Scram" - the Fred Glaysher Technique > > > > > > In article , > > > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > > > "The Bahai Technique": > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > wrote in message > > > news:84qh7b$cdb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > > > It seems to me that the true numbers are between this gloomy > > > estimate > > > > > and the EB numbers. A member of my community is a former NSA member > > > > > from Macau and her national community was 5000 Baha'is - most being > > > > > active. She has also told us that in here travels accross Asia she > > > > > encountered large vibrant communities. China has a large Baha'i > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > > Patrick Henry wrote in message > news:s7123gsg5k2185@corp.supernews.com... > > I've emailed the Encyclopedia Britannica regarding these > > false Bahai membership statistics. > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > wrote in message > > news:84p05h$b2i$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. > > > There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years > > > about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number > > > is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the > > > global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as > > > Latin America are often exagerrated. > > > > > > cheers, > > > Nima > > > > > > > > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > > patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote: > > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > > > > idx.html > > > > > > > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > ----- FYI: Thanks, Fred. I wrote them that even 5 million is an exaggeration. cheers JRIC [Juan Cole] Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s7epcnlqoj867@corp.supernews.com... > FYI > > A response from the Encyclopedia of Britannica: > > --- > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your feedback regarding the Britannica.com site. We value and > appreciate all comments from our visitors. Your suggestions have been > forwarded to the appropriate department. > > Thank you again for contacting Britannica.com. > > > Sincerely, > Jin > Britannica.com Customer Service > www.britannica.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: FG > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:33 AM > To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com > Subject: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica > > > FYI > > --- > Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. > There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years > about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number > is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the > global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as > Latin America are often exagerrated. > > cheers, > Nima > > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote regard Washington Post article: > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > > idx.html > > > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > > > Patrick Henry wrote in message > news:s77nkudsnfg118@corp.supernews.com... > > "Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private > > possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what > > further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the > day > > of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the > > comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience > > are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] > > servants." > > > > Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote in message > news:84sve5$3um$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > "Spam and Scram" - the Fred Glaysher Technique > > > > > > In article , > > > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > > > "The Bahai Technique": > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > wrote in message > > > news:84qh7b$cdb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > > > It seems to me that the true numbers are between this gloomy > > > estimate > > > > > and the EB numbers. A member of my community is a former NSA member > > > > > from Macau and her national community was 5000 Baha'is - most being > > > > > active. She has also told us that in here travels accross Asia she > > > > > encountered large vibrant communities. China has a large Baha'i > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > > Patrick Henry wrote in message > news:s7123gsg5k2185@corp.supernews.com... > > I've emailed the Encyclopedia Britannica regarding these > > false Bahai membership statistics. > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > wrote in message > > news:84p05h$b2i$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. > > > There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years > > > about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number > > > is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the > > > global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as > > > Latin America are often exagerrated. > > > > > > cheers, > > > Nima > > > > > > > > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > > patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote: > > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > > > > idx.html > > > > > > > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > ----- FYI mdiller@us.britannica.com : Hello. Your comment has been bouncing around our email network, from editors to World Data authorities, and the resolution is that we would like to revise our figures for Baha'i membership worldwide provided we can come across hard statistical data to go by. Given that our current figures are based on the best available statistics currently at our disposal, however, we will not be able to make such a change unless you can point us in the direction of publications that indicate exaggerated membership totals in the areas you mention. Do you know of such a reference source that we could consult? Sincerely, Mark Diller, Ph.D. Online Editor, Religion Britannica.com, Inc. > -----Original Message----- > From: Trumbull, Charles > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 8:54 AM > To: Sturgis, Joseph; Diller, Mark > Subject: RE: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia > Britannica > > Our figure this year for total Bahais worldwide is about 6.9 million. I'm > sure the authors of the table would be interested in any hard statistics > any of these readers may have that indicate our figures are too high. > > Charlie > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sturgis, Joseph > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 7:02 AM > To: Trumbull, Charles > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Diller, Mark > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 08:31 AM > To: Sturgis, Joseph > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > > > RE: World Religions Table. Joe Sturgis > > -----Original Message----- > From: Himick, Michael > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 4:34 PM > To: Diller, Mark > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia > Britannica > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Editorial-Comments > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 4:16 PM > To: Himick, Michael > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia > Britannica > > > jl > -----Original Message----- > From: FG [mailto:FG@hotmail.com] > > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:33 AM > To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com > Subject: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia > Britannica > > > FYI > > --- > Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is > misleading. There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some > years about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the > number is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the > global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as > Latin America are often exagerrated. > cheers, > Nima > > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com > >, patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote > regard Washington Post article: > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > > idx.html > > > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s7epcnlqoj867@corp.supernews.com... > FYI > > A response from the Encyclopedia of Britannica: > > --- > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your feedback regarding the Britannica.com site. We value and > appreciate all comments from our visitors. Your suggestions have been > forwarded to the appropriate department. > > Thank you again for contacting Britannica.com. > > > Sincerely, > Jin > Britannica.com Customer Service > www.britannica.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: FG > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:33 AM > To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com > Subject: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica > > > FYI > > --- > Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. > There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years > about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number > is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the > global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as > Latin America are often exagerrated. > > cheers, > Nima > > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote regard Washington Post article: > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > > idx.html > > > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > > > Patrick Henry wrote in message > news:s77nkudsnfg118@corp.supernews.com... > > "Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private > > possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what > > further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the > day > > of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the > > comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience > > are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] > > servants." > > > > Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote in message > news:84sve5$3um$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > "Spam and Scram" - the Fred Glaysher Technique > > > > > > In article , > > > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > > > "The Bahai Technique": > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > wrote in message > > > news:84qh7b$cdb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > > > It seems to me that the true numbers are between this gloomy > > > estimate > > > > > and the EB numbers. A member of my community is a former NSA member > > > > > from Macau and her national community was 5000 Baha'is - most being > > > > > active. She has also told us that in here travels accross Asia she > > > > > encountered large vibrant communities. China has a large Baha'i > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > > Patrick Henry wrote in message > news:s7123gsg5k2185@corp.supernews.com... > > I've emailed the Encyclopedia Britannica regarding these > > false Bahai membership statistics. > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > wrote in message > > news:84p05h$b2i$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. > > > There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years > > > about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number > > > is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the > > > global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as > > > Latin America are often exagerrated. > > > > > > cheers, > > > Nima > > > > > > > > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > > patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote: > > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > > > > idx.html > > > > > > > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > FYI A response from the Encyclopedia of Britannica: --- Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your feedback regarding the Britannica.com site. We value and appreciate all comments from our visitors. Your suggestions have been forwarded to the appropriate department. Thank you again for contacting Britannica.com. Sincerely, Jin Britannica.com Customer Service www.britannica.com -----Original Message----- From: FG Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:33 AM To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com Subject: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica FYI --- Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as Latin America are often exagerrated. cheers, Nima In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote regard Washington Post article: > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > idx.html > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s77nkudsnfg118@corp.supernews.com... > "Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private > possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what > further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day > of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the > comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience > are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] > servants." > > Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > > > wrote in message news:84sve5$3um$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > "Spam and Scram" - the Fred Glaysher Technique > > > > In article , > > "Patrick Henry" wrote: > > > "The Bahai Technique": > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm > > > > > > -- > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > wrote in message > > news:84qh7b$cdb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > > It seems to me that the true numbers are between this gloomy > > estimate > > > > and the EB numbers. A member of my community is a former NSA member > > > > from Macau and her national community was 5000 Baha'is - most being > > > > active. She has also told us that in here travels accross Asia she > > > > encountered large vibrant communities. China has a large Baha'i > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s7123gsg5k2185@corp.supernews.com... > I've emailed the Encyclopedia Britannica regarding these > false Bahai membership statistics. > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > wrote in message > news:84p05h$b2i$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. > > There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years > > about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number > > is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the > > global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as > > Latin America are often exagerrated. > > > > cheers, > > Nima > > > > > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote: > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > > > idx.html > > > > > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > > > > > -- > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > ---------- From: [SMTP:EarthrisePress@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 9:05 AM To: Fred Glaysher Subject: FALSE Bahai Membership Statistics Upon further reflection, a better estimate might be arrived at for true Baha'i membership statistics by extrapolating what is generally accepted regarding USA Bahai membership. The Bahai administration regularly claims 140,000 US Bahais. Having never seen such large numbers of US Bahais, most thoughtful Bahais prefer the figure of 60,000 US Bahais based on the widely known existence of actual mailing addresses for that number, many of whom though never participate in Bahai activities, being regarded as "inactive." If we subtract the "inactive" Bahais from the 60,000, we have the figure of approximately only 25,000 Bahais who show up regularly in the United States. Taking these two widely held figures, I calculate 43% and 19% of the 140,000 claimed by the Bahai administration: 140,000 X 43 % = 60,200 addresses for "Bahais" in US 140,000 X 19% = 26,600 "active" US Bahais Applying that formula to the similarly inflated figure of worldwide Bahai membership of 6.7 million, I believe the true worldwide membership numbers to be close to the following: 6.7 million X 43% = 2,881,000 known "addresses" worldwide 6.7 million X 19% = 1,273,000 "active" Bahais worldwide Rounding up, giving the benefit of the doubt, and there are probably only a maximum of 3 million Bahais at best worldwide, especially since there are essentially no Bahais in Europe beyond a negligible few hundred to a thousand in most countries, as in Japan. Many Bahais have for decades been suspicious of the administration's claims of millions in the developing world. Hope this helps the Encyclopedia Britannica in its effort to ascertain a reliable figure. I should like to add two points: 1) A number of Bahais or ex-Bahais who worked at the NSA of the United States have stated online over the past years that they knew for a fact that only about 60,000 addresses existed for American Bahais-- all other snail mail would bounce.... Hence, the 60,000 figure. 2) TENS of THOUSANDS of people have entered the Bahai faith and then left, or been driven out, often without caring enough to bother with officially "withdrawing." It would appear approximately 80,000 of them.... Both facts should be considered by the Encyclopedia of Britannica when attempting to determine worldwide membership and probably both corroborate further my estimates based on 43% and 19% according to known discrepancies in the United States enrollment figures. Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----- Juan, Thanks for contacting the Encyclopedia Britannica. I myself doubt 5 million Bahais exist. The statistics for India and other countries of the developing world are certainly inflated and they usually have only the vaugest idea of what they're doing when they sign a Bahai card, never or seldom to show up again for any Bahai activity. 3 to 4 million would still be too many. Anything below 6.7 million, though, is headed in the right direction. Obviously, the Bahai institutions are unreliable. Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----- FYI: Thanks, Fred. I wrote them that even 5 million is an exaggeration. cheers JRIC [Juan Cole] ----- FYI mdiller@us.britannica.com : Hello. Your comment has been bouncing around our email network, from editors to World Data authorities, and the resolution is that we would like to revise our figures for Baha'i membership worldwide provided we can come across hard statistical data to go by. Given that our current figures are based on the best available statistics currently at our disposal, however, we will not be able to make such a change unless you can point us in the direction of publications that indicate exaggerated membership totals in the areas you mention. Do you know of such a reference source that we could consult? Sincerely, Mark Diller, Ph.D. Online Editor, Religion Britannica.com, Inc. > -----Original Message----- > From: Trumbull, Charles > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 8:54 AM > To: Sturgis, Joseph; Diller, Mark > Subject: RE: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia > Britannica > > Our figure this year for total Bahais worldwide is about 6.9 million. I'm > sure the authors of the table would be interested in any hard statistics > any of these readers may have that indicate our figures are too high. > > Charlie > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sturgis, Joseph > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 7:02 AM > To: Trumbull, Charles > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Diller, Mark > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 08:31 AM > To: Sturgis, Joseph > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > > > RE: World Religions Table. Joe Sturgis > > -----Original Message----- > From: Himick, Michael > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 4:34 PM > To: Diller, Mark > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia > Britannica ---- FYI A response from the Encyclopedia of Britannica: --- Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your feedback regarding the Britannica.com site. We value and appreciate all comments from our visitors. Your suggestions have been forwarded to the appropriate department. Thank you again for contacting Britannica.com. Sincerely, Jin Britannica.com Customer Service www.britannica.com -----Original Message----- From: FG Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:33 AM To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com Subject: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as Latin America are often exagerrated. cheers, Nima ----- In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote regard Washington Post article: > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > idx.html > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----- Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s7123gsg5k2185@corp.supernews.com... > I've emailed the Encyclopedia Britannica regarding these > false Bahai membership statistics. > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > [The Washington Post took as accurate the inflated figure of Bahai membership and reported it in its paper:] ----- > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100-idx.html "Bahai's 6,764,000" Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Mark Elderkin[SMTP:mee@tsn.cc] Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 6:04 PM To: Fred Glaysher Subject: Re: Bahai>>> uhj's techniques Fred............. You have truly mastered the high-tech form of rhetorical masturbation. You continue to post the things which seem to excite you the most to people who don't really care what you are posting. It is a shame that you feel that this has become such a deep seated motivation for so much of your time. I have heard all the drivel you are posting, before, and it has always come from individuals who have had their hand slapped for one reason or another. Get over it. The Baha'i Faith is divine and nothing you can say(mostly imagination) can ever effect it in the least. You will never have the opportunity to understand the significance of the UHJ or its members in your lifetime. Jealousy takes all forms. Why not stick to an area of your expertise and get out of this one? No one here cares anymore about you or your fantasies. Mark Elderkin ---------- From: Mark Elderkin[SMTP:mee@tsn.cc] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 6:15 PM To: Subject: Re: Bahai>>> uhj's techniques I will post you and I will stand behind everything I wrote............. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Mark Elderkin Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 10:57 PM Subject: Re: Bahai>>> uhj's techniques > I have not read your message. Please do not > email me. Post your opinions online in public > view, if you dare.... > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mark Elderkin > To: Fred Glaysher > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 6:04 PM > Subject: Re: Bahai>>> uhj's techniques > > > > Fred............. > > You have truly mastered the high-tech form of rhetorical masturbation. > > You continue to post the things which seem to excite you the most to > people > > who don't really care what you are posting. It is a shame that you feel > that > > this has become such a deep seated motivation for so much of your time. I > > have heard all the drivel you are posting, before, and it has always come > > from individuals who have had their hand slapped for one reason or > another. > > Get over it. The Baha'i Faith is divine and nothing you can say(mostly > > imagination) can ever effect it in the least. You will never have the > > opportunity to understand the significance of the UHJ or its members in > your > > lifetime. Jealousy takes all forms. Why not stick to an area of your > > expertise and get out of this one? No one here cares anymore about you or > > your fantasies. > > Mark > > Elderkin > > > > ---------- From: Bahá'í World Centre[SMTP:secretariat@bwc.org] Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 11:09 AM To: Subject: RE: Bahai>>> Continuing Harassment Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message has been received at the Bahá'í World Centre. Electronic Communications Operation, Bahá'í World Centre ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:EarthrisePress@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 11:05 AM Subject: Bahai>>> Continuing Harassment A Bahai continues to harass me despite my polite requests that he cease emailing me his insults and threats. I hold the uhj directly responsible for the actions of this and other Bahai fanatics. The uhj routinely inspires this type of fundamentalism in my fellow Bahais and then uses them to suppress and control others. I shall be sending a copy of this message to the uhj along with the individual's name and email address. As a member of the Bahai faith since 1976, I have every right to express my conscience and beliefs as both Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha guaranteed their followers.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm When I asked him to desist, he wrote: >I will post you and I will stand behind everything I wrote............. One of his earlier messages was: > You have truly mastered the high-tech form of rhetorical masturbation. >You continue to post the things which seem to excite you the most to people >who don't really care what you are posting. It is a shame that you feel that >this has become such a deep seated motivation for so much of your time. I >have heard all the drivel you are posting, before, and it has always come >from individuals who have had their hand slapped for one reason or another. >Get over it. The Baha'i Faith is divine and nothing you can say(mostly >imagination) can ever effect it in the least. You will never have the >opportunity to understand the significance of the UHJ or its members in your >lifetime. Jealousy takes all forms. Why not stick to an area of your >expertise and get out of this one? No one here cares anymore about you or >your fantasies. ---------- From: [SMTP:EarthrisePress@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 11:12 AM To: UHJ Subject: Bahai>>> Continuing Harassment Dear Members of the uhj: Please restrain this Bahai fundamentalist who continues to threaten and harass me. Again, I hold you directly responsible for his actions. Notice his correct name and email address is "Mark Elderkin" which he tried to conceal in his harassing posts to me. Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----- POSTED TO USENET: A Bahai continues to harass me despite my polite requests that he cease emailing me his insults and threats. I hold the uhj directly responsible for the actions of this and other Bahai fanatics. The uhj routinely inspires this type of fundamentalism in my fellow Bahais and then uses them to suppress and control others. I shall be sending a copy of this message to the uhj along with the individual's name and email address. As a member of the Bahai faith since 1976, I have every right to express my conscience and beliefs as both Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha guaranteed their followers.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm When I asked him to desist, he wrote: >I will post you and I will stand behind everything I wrote............. One of his earlier messages was: > You have truly mastered the high-tech form of rhetorical masturbation. >You continue to post the things which seem to excite you the most to people >who don't really care what you are posting. It is a shame that you feel that >this has become such a deep seated motivation for so much of your time. I >have heard all the drivel you are posting, before, and it has always come >from individuals who have had their hand slapped for one reason or another. >Get over it. The Baha'i Faith is divine and nothing you can say(mostly >imagination) can ever effect it in the least. You will never have the >opportunity to understand the significance of the UHJ or its members in your >lifetime. Jealousy takes all forms. Why not stick to an area of your >expertise and get out of this one? No one here cares anymore about you or >your fantasies. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Elderkin To: Fred Glaysher Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 6:04 PM Subject: Re: Bahai>>> uhj's techniques > Fred............. > You have truly mastered the high-tech form of rhetorical masturbation. > You continue to post the things which seem to excite you the most to people > who don't really care what you are posting. It is a shame that you feel that > this has become such a deep seated motivation for so much of your time. I > have heard all the drivel you are posting, before, and it has always come > from individuals who have had their hand slapped for one reason or another. > Get over it. The Baha'i Faith is divine and nothing you can say(mostly > imagination) can ever effect it in the least. You will never have the > opportunity to understand the significance of the UHJ or its members in your > lifetime. Jealousy takes all forms. Why not stick to an area of your > expertise and get out of this one? No one here cares anymore about you or > your fantasies. > Mark > Elderkin > > A DOZEN COPIES OF THIS MESSAGE WERE SPAMMED TO MY MAILBOX: ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Elderkin To: Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 6:15 PM Subject: Re: Bahai>>> uhj's techniques > I will post you and I will stand behind everything I wrote............. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: Mark Elderkin > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 10:57 PM > Subject: Re: Bahai>>> uhj's techniques > > > > I have not read your message. Please do not > > email me. Post your opinions online in public > > view, if you dare.... > > > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Mark Elderkin > > To: Fred Glaysher > > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 6:04 PM > > Subject: Re: Bahai>>> uhj's techniques > > > > > > > Fred............. > > > You have truly mastered the high-tech form of rhetorical > masturbation. > > > You continue to post the things which seem to excite you the most to > > people > > > who don't really care what you are posting. It is a shame that you feel > > that > > > this has become such a deep seated motivation for so much of your time. > I > > > have heard all the drivel you are posting, before, and it has always > come > > > from individuals who have had their hand slapped for one reason or > > another. > > > Get over it. The Baha'i Faith is divine and nothing you can say(mostly > > > imagination) can ever effect it in the least. You will never have the > > > opportunity to understand the significance of the UHJ or its members in > > your > > > lifetime. Jealousy takes all forms. Why not stick to an area of your > > > expertise and get out of this one? No one here cares anymore about you > or > > > your fantasies. > > > Mark > > > Elderkin > > > > > > > > ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 5:27 PM Subject: Re: Bahai>>> Continuing Harassment A Bahai continues to harass me despite my polite requests that he cease emailing me his insults and threats. I hold the uhj directly responsible for the actions of this and other Bahai fanatics. The uhj routinely inspires this type of fundamentalism in my fellow Bahais and then uses them to suppress and control others. I shall be sending a copy of this message to the uhj along with the individual's name and email address. As a member of the Bahai faith since 1976, I have every right to express my conscience and beliefs as both Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha guaranteed their followers.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Bahá'í World Centre To: Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 11:09 AM Subject: RE: Bahai>>> Continuing Harassment Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message has been received at the Bahá'í World Centre. Electronic Communications Operation, Bahá'í World Centre ----- When I asked him to desist, he spammed my account with a dozen copies of this message: >I will post you and I will stand behind everything I wrote............. One of his earlier messages was: > You have truly mastered the high-tech form of rhetorical masturbation. >You continue to post the things which seem to excite you the most to people >who don't really care what you are posting. It is a shame that you feel that >this has become such a deep seated motivation for so much of your time. I >have heard all the drivel you are posting, before, and it has always come >from individuals who have had their hand slapped for one reason or another. >Get over it. The Baha'i Faith is divine and nothing you can say(mostly >imagination) can ever effect it in the least. You will never have the >opportunity to understand the significance of the UHJ or its members in your >lifetime. Jealousy takes all forms. Why not stick to an area of your >expertise and get out of this one? No one here cares anymore about you or >your fantasies. ---------- From: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 7:39 AM Subject: Inter-Parliamentary Union - Universal Declaration on Democracy Item #21: "The state of democracy presupposes freedom of opinion and expression; this right implies freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers." https://www.ipu.org/ -- Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Into the Ruins: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967042127/ ---------- From: Mark Elderkin[SMTP:elderkin@nor.com.au] Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 4:52 PM Subject: Re: Inter-Parliamentary Union - Universal Declaration on Democracy > "The state of democracy presupposes freedom of opinion and > expression; this right implies freedom to hold opinions without > interference and to seek, receive and impart information and > ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers." Hold your opinion without interference. Why do you interfere, here, with your spam-like postings? It is totally unacceptable by this mediums predefinitions. When I wrote to you, I was totally within my rights to do just that. Certainly it could not have been too offensive or you would not have posted it here for all to read. Like all things in this natural world, there will always be a reaction to your action.