From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 5:19 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Board posting at Keyword: BAHA'I <> This volunteer leader regularly abuses his position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom he and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. He is the problem and cannot be relied on to moderate fairly. The bahai community leader is harassing me and others and trying to suppress all knowledge and discussion about the major lawsuit against the bahai faith recently filed in New Mexico. Please ask him to desist. FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuitResponse.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views he opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... A clear example of the way AOL is manipulated and freedom of speech and conscience are regularly DAMAGED by AOL's indulgence. --Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm In a message dated 6/30/2001 3:03:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LDRS LFST Shahid writes: > Subj:Board posting at Keyword: BAHA'I > Date:6/30/2001 3:03:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time > From:LDRS LFST Shahid > To:Glayshf > CC:LDRS LFST Jerry, LDRS LFST Mgr > > > > > > Dear Fred, > > Regarding your messages posted at Lifestyle>Spirituality>Baha'i Message > Board>Off Topic>: 6/29/01 8:34 AM > > To avoid further disruption to the message board, your posts have been > removed. Please review Keyword: TOS and the Spirituality Message Board > Standards for more information on what is appropriate in our community. > > Depending on the severity of the disruption, a report may have been > submitted to AOL's Community Action Team for further review. > > Thanks for taking the time to read this letter. Please note, I cannot > respond to replies. Therefore, if you have any comments or questions please > send mail to TOSGeneral. > > Regards, > > > LDRS LFST Shahid > Volunteer Message Board Leader > Baha'i Message Board > > Subject: Re: NM Lawsuit - FULL TEXT - Deborah Buchhorn vs BF > Date: 6/29/01 8:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time > From: Glayshf > Message-id: <20010629083439.10217.00003143@ng-md1.aol.com> > > > > > > Fraudulent Oppression and Prevention of Communications between Shareholders > 21. On April 19, 1998, Defendant Trustees ordered named Plaintiff Deborah > Buchhorn to refrain from discussing her "issues" with anyone but Auxiliary > Board member Brent Poirier and the Local Spiritual Assembly. Plaintiff > complied and appealed to Brent Poirier and the National Spiritual Assembly, > who took no action. Defendant LSA has wrapped many of their dealings with > members in the cloak of secrecy in a like manner.Many people have said, in > one way or another, that various cults > operate in this way, i.e., suppress and prevent communication > between members, thereby distorting their perception and > understanding of what is actually taking place, etc.... > "VIOLATED THE RIGHTS OF CORPORATE MEMBERS" to communicate > with others.... > > > This too is a quite predictable pattern the uhj > has used > often to silence and isolate people of conscience. It has been done on AOL, > soc.religion.bahai, and elsewhere on and off line. > > > > > fglaysher > > > > > > > > ---------- From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 5:37 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Board posting at Keyword: BAHAI <> Please do not send me your form letters. Speaking with someone isn't going to help since AOL is not seriously interested in confronting the fundamentalism of my fellow Baha'is the ways in which they are exploiting your TOS rules to suppress freedom of speech and conscience. Instead of your canned TOS General replies, please have a thinking human being respond. See below: Please do not send me a form letter instructing me to send "comments regarding activities in a particular forum need to be addressed by the forum's staff or supervisor." This volunteer leader regularly abuses his position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom he and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. He is the problem and cannot be relied on to moderate fairly. The bahai community leader is harassing me and others and trying to suppress all knowledge and discussion about the major lawsuit against the bahai faith recently filed in New Mexico. Please ask him to desist. FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuitResponse.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views he opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... A clear example of the way AOL is manipulated and freedom of speech and conscience are regularly DAMAGED by AOL's indulgence. --Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm In a message dated 6/27/2001 8:45:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TOSGen1 writes: > Subj:Re: Board posting at Keyword: BAHAI > Date:6/27/2001 8:45:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time > From:TOSGen1 > To:Glayshf > > > > Dear Member, > > Thank you for writing. This issue would be best addressed by speaking to a > Member Services Representative. Please call 1-800-827-6364. You may also > find answers to your questions at Keyword: Help. > > If you have any comments or questions please send e-mail to TOSGeneral. > > Regards, > Bryant > Community Action Team > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 5:20 AM Subject: Re: Karen's Statement on RD and BA I know of no one on talk.religion.bahai or alt.religion.bahai who has advocated violence against fundamentalist bahais. On the contrary, many, many fundamentalists among my fellow bahais HAVE intimated, in numerous ways, violence against me and other liberal bahais and perpetrated DEEDS that are equivalent to violence in cyberspace. See the many threatening hate messages at https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/hate.htm especially Continuing Harassment 1/31/2000; 2/24/2001 -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm "seegar" wrote in message news:3b4655c5.3228240@news-server.optonline.net... > >On 6 Jul 2001 13:14:33 GMT, bn872@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael McKenny) wrote: > > > What is surprising, except perhaps to those suspecting Baha'i > >authorities have made people fearful of expressing their opinions on the > >Internet in unmoderated fora, is that this is a place so relatively > >under-utilized by Baha'is. > > To the Future, > > Michael > > Michael, > > IMO it's not that Baha'is are fearful of expressing their opinions in > an unmoderated fora, it's that they don't want to be posting in a > group where so much mean spirited, vindictive, nasty anti AO ranting > and ad hominen attacking is in evidence. It is unpleasant to > read-myself included-although I have a thicker skin than most. I see > supporters of the AO being for the most part, civil, courteous and > keeping their responses on topic and on the other hand and > unfortunately, some anti AO supporters behaving way over the top with > rhetoric to the point of even advocating physical violence. It "leaves > a very bad taste in the mouth". > > Peace and Love, > > Chris ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 5:22 AM Subject: Re: A Seeker's Guide to Baha'i-related Newsgroups: One Person's View SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI: Robert J. Pease, December 5, 1998: "I support your efforts to expose SRB as a fundamentalist group." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb84.htm Ron House: "I think the following is a clear case of malicious rejection of an article by the worst of the moderators of soc.religion.bahai." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb53.htm Timothy Mulligan: "(Sigh) Fred, I'm beginning to think you're right about those SRB moderators." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb59.htm RobertNik: "these guys are pompous arseholes IMHO." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb54.htm Bruce Burrill: "What are Baha'i afraid of?" https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb60.htm Zuteflute: "Frankly I could not see anything in the letter I wrote which would prompt someone to ask whether or not I am a Baha'i." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb50.htm YU ZIR: "But as an outsider, I can perhaps see the point Fred Glaysher is making, and which point none of SRB's defenders seem to address." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb46.htm Matthew Cromer: "The current moderators regulate the contents--posting articles which they agree with...." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb47.htm Kavosh Soltani, December 9, 1998:"So many Bahais on these forumshave shown to be ready to forget logic and reason, ignore clear evidence and Word of God, and come up with exactly the same line of tired and inaccurate excuses and arguments to justify their position, that it can not be a simple coincidence." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb77.htm Shakti3, December 4, 1998: "Sorry to hear that you've been surpressed on srb. Your comments were alway very "right on." Altho it does not surprise me one bit, seeing the way these newsgroups operate." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Ex7.htm Harold Shinsato: "It seems like there is an oppression over the Baha'i Faith." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb33.htm Steve Tomljenovic, December 3, 1998: "The moderators are a bit overzealous at times. Since all the controversy started, it has gotten worse." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb79.htm Laeterna: "To say I was flabberghasted at this type of "moderating" was putting it mildly indeed." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/censored2.htm Robin Peters: "I think you're to be commended for your persistence in the face of consistent censorship." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb43.htm jgoldberg: "I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. " https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb57.htm Ruletherod, November 17, 1998: "Too much damage has already been done in the name and to the name of Baha'u'llah by right-wing administrative bullies, linear-thinking apologists, and doctrinaire-fundamentalists. You can't just blame it all on the critics." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb76.htm Many other similar messages may be found on my web site under soc.religion.bahai censorship. https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb.htm The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Roger Reini" wrote in message news:B79FO=tNfkydgR4sh1c+8VeExvkj@4ax.com... > A Seeker's Guide to Bahá'í Newsgroups and Web-Based Discussion Groups > (One person's view) > > Composed by Roger Reini (roger@rreini.com) > Last revised May 29, 2001 > > This document will be posted on a periodic basis (bi-weekly or > monthly) to alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai. > > NOTES: > > 1. The following document reflects the opinion of the author only > and should not be taken as an authoritative position of the Bahá'í > Faith or any of its Institutions. > 2. This document does not cover newsgroups in other languages or > hierarchies that are devoted to the Faith, such as > it.cultura.religioni.bahai. > > MODIFICATIONS: > > May 29, 2001: Added more comments about Beliefnet > May 18, 2001: Added this modifications section, section on web-based > groups > May 14, 2001: Added statement about newsgroups in other languages not > being covered > > You, the seeker, are reading this document because: > > a) you have heard about the Bahá'í Faith and want to learn about > it, and > b) you are trying to learn what Usenet resources are devoted to > discussing the Faith. > > There are currently three English-language newsgroups devoted to > discussions about the Bahá'í Faith: > · soc.religion.bahai > · alt.religion.bahai > · talk.religion.bahai > > All three newsgroups are open to Bahá'ís and non-Bahá'ís. > > > > soc.religion.bahai > > Of the three newsgroups devoted to the Bahá'í Faith, > soc.religion.bahai (SRB) is by far the oldest. It was created in the > early 1990's. Its purpose, according to the FAQ, is "act as a > non-threatening forum for discussing and sharing information about the > tenets, history, and texts of the Bahá'í Faith." Both Bahá'ís and > non-Bahá'ís are welcome to post to the newsgroup. > > SRB is a moderated newsgroup. A team of moderators reviews every > submission for its appropriateness to the discussion and for its > exemplifying the standards of Bahá'í consultation (basically, in this > context, following accepted netiquette procedures; the FAQ goes into > more detail). This moderation filters out off-topic discussions and > keeps on-topic discussions civil and smooth. Posts are not moderated > for on-topic content, with one exception: "Posts which argue for or > promote a succession of authority outside the Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh > will not be posted" (quoting from the FAQ). This is to avoid engaging > in discussions with Covenant breakers or their followers (more on > Covenant breaking later). > > The official FAQ for SRB is located at > https://www.bcca.org/services/srb/welcome.html. > > alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai > > These newsgroups are younger, having been created in April 1997 and > February 1999, respectively. They were created because the main > proponent of talk.religion.bahai, frustrated with having his posts > rejected by the SRB moderators, wanted to create an unmoderated forum > for discussing the Bahá'í Faith. Alt.religion.bahai (ARB) was created > in response to the first attempt to create talk.religion.bahai (TRB), > which ended in failure. On the third attempt, TRB passed. > > Unlike SRB, alt.religion.bahai (ARB) and talk.religion.bahai (TRB) are > unmoderated. Anyone can freely post to them on any topic he/she > wishes, though netiquette calls for posts to be related to the Bahá'í > Faith. As a result, these newsgroups give the appearance of "anything > goes." The discussions tend to be coarser than discussions on SRB; > few posts reflect the true standards of Bahá'í consultation. As a > result, many Bahá'ís stay away from these groups. > > Many of the posts to these newsgroups are from individuals who are > opposed to the Bahá'í Faith or certain aspects of it. Some are from > individuals from other religious traditions (Christian, Muslim, > Buddhist, etc.) and attempt to refute the teachings of the Faith. > Some are from former Bahá'ís who object to certain teachings of the > Faith or certain actions of Bahá'í administrative bodies. Some are > from individuals who have been declared "Covenant Breakers" by the > Universal House of Justice, or are from followers of such individuals. > > Covenant breaking involves challenging the lawfully established > authority of the Bahá'í Faith. Bahá'u'lláh, the Founder of the Bahá'í > Faith, established several institutions that govern the affairs of the > Bahá'í community. At His passing (or His ascension, as Bahá'ís refer > to it), He conferred ultimate authority for the Faith to His eldest > son, 'Abdu'l-Bahá, saying that all were to turn to Him. Similarly, > 'Abdu'l-Bahá passed this authority to His eldest grandson, Shoghi > Effendi, who became the first Guardian of the Bahá'í Faith. Now > Shoghi Effendi was unable to name a successor to himself as Guardian, > for he had no children and all other male descendents of Bahá'u'lláh > had been declared Covenant breakers. So when he passed on, there was > no successor. Some of the responsibilities of the Guardian, in his > capacity as Head of the Faith, were assumed by the Universal House of > Justice, which had been established by Bahá'u'lláh but not elected > until 1963. Other aspects of the Guardian's authority could not be > assumed by the House, so they are no longer exercised. Rebelling > against the Head of the Faith, at any time, is treated as though one > is rebelling against God. For the protection of the community, those > rebels are expelled from the Faith. Believers are warned not to > become involved with them in any way; that includes directly > responding to them in discussion groups. They are also counseled to > avoid discussions that begin with words and end with words (i.e., > serve no real purpose) or discussions that are undignified. > > Note that there is a distinction between those who have been expelled > from the Faith for breaking the Covenant and those who have left the > Faith because they did not believe in Bahá'u'lláh and His teachings. > > In the opinion of this writer, it is not true that the majority of the > messages on ARB and TRB are posted by Covenant breakers or their > followers. > > Web-based discussion groups > > There are a number of Web-based discussion groups devoted to the > Bahá'í Faith. As of May 18, 2001, this writer has had significant > experience with only one, the Bahá'í areas on Beliefnet > (www.beliefnet.com). > > Beliefnet - Beliefnet is a site devoted to religion in general, with > services and discussion groups for nearly all faiths. It is not > operated by Bahá'ís. There are several groups within the Bahá'í area, > including the main group, intended for Bahá'ís to fellowship and > discuss amongst themselves; side groups on marriage and community > life, learning about the Faith, etc.; and lastly, a challenge and > critique group, where individuals can challenge the teachings of the > Faith, albeit in a respectful way. These groups are for the most part > unmoderated, though Beliefnet staffers reserve the right to move > threads to more appropriate groups within the Bahá'í area. > > One weakness of an unmoderated Web-based discussion group is the > inability to blank out or ignore objectionable postings, such as those > from Covenant breakers. In the opinion of this writer, this weakness > is a significant flaw, as good Usenet readers allow one to filter out > objectionable postings or authors. By being effectively compelled to > read them, no matter how hard one may try to avoid them, one is > putting his or her spiritual health at risk, according to this > writer's understanding of the Bahá'í teachings. A moderated group > would not have this problem; such posts would never get past the > moderators. > > Advice to the seeker > > This FAQ is subtitled "One person's view," and in the view of the > author, seekers wanting to learn about the Bahá'í Faith via Usenet > newsgroups should stick to soc.religion.bahai, at least initially. > He/she will learn about the Faith initially from a Bahá'í perspective > rather than from the perspective of opponents of the Faith. Later on, > if he/she has a strong stomach, the seeker could decide to monitor ARB > and TRB, keeping in mind that it will not reflect the high standards > of the Faith. > > If one decides to participate in discussions on ARB and TRB, he/she > should be aware that some participants like to crosspost their > postings to several unrelated newsgroups, causing the readers of those > other newsgroups to become irritated. When replying, make sure that > the responses go only to ARB and TRB. > > Regarding Beliefnet, some of the Bahá'í-related groups are more > appropriate for the seeker than others. One example of a group for > seekers is the "Learn about Bahá'í" group. The "Challenge and > Critique" group is not a seeker-friendly group, in the opinion of this > writer. > > > Roger (roger@rreini.com) > https://www.rreini.com/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 5:30 AM Subject: 23,000 - More hits than US Bahais.... 23,000+ More hits than US Bahais.... Counts only homepage hits. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 12:55 PM Subject: Re: Text of Fosters Threatening Letter to a 15 year old girl with depression "Kimo Kumalaa" wrote in message news:aa95ebfc.0107070239.555b7365@posting.google.com... > Dermod > > It was Bill Hyman who started getting the non bahai's on the RD list > upset. He had to leave when they called him a baha'i hypocrite. That's > when he sent Mark Foster in to try and clean up his dirty work. Now > Hyman is starting the whole thing again on another non baha'i list > (cnreligion). I guess he got his training on SRB moderating. Looks > like this guy and foster are out to hijack all the religious lists > under the guise of 'teaching'. Who are they working for???? - not > Baha'u'llah that is for sure. > > Kimo Regarding Hyman, see https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/srb67.htm https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/srb23.htm https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/srb31.htm https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/srb30.htm https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/srb42.htm Who are they working for???? - not > Baha'u'llah that is for sure. I couldn't agree more.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 3:48 PM To: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Board posting at Keyword: BAHAI <> ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 6:29 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Once again I must state that *ALL* of the allegations made by the fundamentalists in this thread are false.... I encourage former or non-bahais to reflect on that fact.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20010711003103.06564.00004940@ng-ch1.aol.com... > >Could you kindly quote from the relevant NSA communication which > >states this fact or better yet post the whole document. > > Dear Michael, > > I don't have any communication with the NSA. This information was given to me > orally by a Counselor. > > warmest, Susan > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 7:40 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing These allegations are *all* false.... The thoughtful will reflect on why they continue to be alleged with such relentless desperation.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20010712003852.10186.00006855@ng-md1.aol.com... > >Umm. Could you kindly tell me the distinction between this and > >backbiting? > > Dear Michael, > > If you check your dictionary you will see that backbiting is defined as: > "malicious comment about one not present." I don't see how citing an oral > source for my information regarding the reasons why he was not notified of his > removal constitutes backbiting. I certainly didn't need the Counselor to tell > me that Fred had told the Institutions that contacting him would be considered > harrassment. He used to have documents to this effect on his website. > > > If there is anything in writing stating that Fred has been > >disenrolled from the Baha'i Faith, let that be produced, along with the > >grounds for this action. > > The written document stating that Fred was no longer a member of the Baha'i > community has already been posted. As far as the grounds for this action, the > document in question doesn't say, nor did I say anything. The only thing I > commented on was why he wasn't notified of this action. But it doesn't take a > rocket scientist to figure out why he might have been removed from the rolls. > > warmest, Susan > > > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 7:41 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Every word here is completely false.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm "Inqu329960" wrote in message news:20010711181311.08896.00000004@ng-ml1.aol.com... > >From: smaneck@aol.com (Susan Maneck ) > > >And for the umpteenth time Fred was not informed of his removal from the > >rolls > >because he told the Institutions he would consider any attempt to contact him > >as a harrassment. So they accomodated his wishes. > > So the situation is like this: > > I write to the NSA and tell them to remove me from the rolls and also tell them > not to contact me in the future because I will consider it harrasment. > > The NSA complies with both my wishes. They remove me from the rolls but do not > send me any letter confirming their action. > > Now because Fred has not heard from the NSA confirming his request to be > removed from the roles he considers himself to still be a member in good > standing. > > Hmmmmm....?????? > > > Warren, walking away, scratching my head. > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 7:44 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing At last a word of truth: In 1996 I did request that I not be sent the American Bahai. The rest is false. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20010712002214.10186.00006844@ng-md1.aol.com... > > > >I write to the NSA and tell them to remove me from the rolls and also tell > >them > >not to contact me in the future because I will consider it harrasment. > > > >The NSA complies with both my wishes. They remove me from the rolls but do > >not > >send me any letter confirming their action. > > > >Now because Fred has not heard from the NSA confirming his request to be > >removed from the roles he considers himself to still be a member in good > >standing. > > > >Hmmmmm....?????? > > > > > >Warren, walking away, scratching my head. > > > LOL. Well, he didn't actually asked to be removed from the rolls. But he did > tell the Institutions that any attempt to contact him would be consider > harrassment. I think he also told them to stop sending him American Baha'i. > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 5:21 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:9ikn3l$rlf$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Hi, Fred. > Are you saying that all you said was you did not want to continue > receiving the AMerican Baha'i, that you did not ask the Baha'i authorities > to not contact you, in other words that your understanding of your > communication was that Baha'i authorities could contact you about anything > as long as they did not send you this newsletter? > Thrive, > Michael Michael, In 1996 I tore off the regularly printed label on my monthly copy of the American Bahai for address changes and wrote on it "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." I then mailed it and waited a few months hoping I would no longer find it in my mailbox. They continued to send it. For at least a second time, and perhaps a third time, several months going by, I used the printed label and mailed it in with "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list" handwritten on it with no other comment or explanation whatsoever. That's fact number one, let's call it. I want to establish first FACT number one before discussing anything beyond it. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 6:49 AM To: Yorgos Marinakis Subject: Amicus Curiae - Motion to Dismiss - NM Lawsuit Rough draft. Suggestions welcomed. I decided to keep it very brief in hope in might actually be read. Let me know where to send it by overnight mail. I request the Court to consider my testimony as Amicus Curiae on July 18, 2001 in the Motion to Dismiss Deborah Buchhorn's lawsuit against the Bahai Local Spirtual Assembly of Albuquerque and the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States. I converted to the Bahai Faith in 1976 and have never withdrawn from it nor been notified otherwise by the Bahai administration. I I, like many Bahais, was and am attracted to the teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha by the progressive and liberal tenor of their writings. Relevant to Deborah Buchhorn's lawsuit are the almost numberless passages that are well represented by two brief quotations: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world." --Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. "When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization may give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are inevitable." --Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, 197. Like many Bahais, the young person I was more than twenty-five years ago trusted these words indicated how the Bahai Faith itself would conduct its own affairs. Unfortunately, Deborah Buchhorn's experience, suggested through the details of her lawsuit, demonstrate the lived reality of everyday Bahai community life for all too many of its members. II The many other victims of fundamentalists among my fellow Bahais include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor of Dialogue magazine Stephen Scholl, its other editors, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest over the distortion of many historical facts, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the Department of History of the University of Michigan, Canadian writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, New Zealander Alison Marshall for writing a critique of Bahai publishing and censorship, and Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman. I urge the Court seeking to understand the Bahai Faith to consider the experience and views of the Bahais and ex-Bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my website, The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience, which I created in May of 1998 as a means of documenting the pervasive abuse of the freedom and liberty of conscience extolled by the Founders of the Bahai Faith. The over 30 megabytes of information that I have collected can leave little doubt for a fair-minded person that there are indeed very serious reasons for concern about the wide discrepancy that exists between the written and publicly proclaimed aims and goals of the Bahai Faith and the actual experience of many such Bahais like Deborah Buchhorn with persistent fraud and character assassination. Since Bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted for several years now a concerted campaign of fraud and libel on such sites as AOL, the Usenet newsgroups soc.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, www.beliefnet.com, many email lists, and elsewhere to discredit and malign independent and diverse voices. Again, the details of Deborah Buchhorn's allegations merely read like more of the same old story. III Far from the Court dismissing Deborah Buchhorn's lawsuit, it is the ardent wish of this Bahai, and I know of many Bahais and non-Bahais, that justice receive a hearing. While her allegations may surprise the inexperienced and uniformed about the Bahai Faith, every single detail of Ms. Buchhorn's lawsuit reads like old news to me, and I'm sure many other Bahais. In my opinion nothing she alleges hasn't already happened many, many times to other Americans, and Bahais elsewhere in the world, and been documented repeatedly. What is unusual in her case is that she and her attorney Yorgos Marinakis have the stamina, courage, and strength of character to withstand the ferocious onslaught of fraud and libel so routinely meted out by the most fanatical and intolerant elements of the Bahai administration. I appeal to the Court to grant Deborah Buchhorn a just and full hearing. Frederick Glaysher 668 Bolinger Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 248-608-6424 FG@home.com www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 11:12 AM Subject: NM Lawsuit - July 18th Court Hearing I've changed my mind about attending the court room proceedings next Wednesday but I'm sure we'll hear about them from trustworthy people. The court clerk told me on the phone this morning the hearing is scheduled still. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 11:17 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Board posting at Keyword: BAHA'I <> This volunteer leader regularly abuses his position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom he and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. He is the problem and cannot be relied on to moderate fairly. The bahai community leader is harassing me and others and trying to suppress all knowledge and discussion about the major lawsuit against the bahai faith recently filed in New Mexico. Please ask him to desist. FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuitResponse.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views he opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... A clear example of the way AOL is manipulated and freedom of speech and conscience are regularly DAMAGED by AOL's indulgence. --Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 11:17 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Board posting at Keyword: BAHA'I <> This volunteer leader regularly abuses his position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom he and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. He is the problem and cannot be relied on to moderate fairly. The bahai community leader is harassing me and others and trying to suppress all knowledge and discussion about the major lawsuit against the bahai faith recently filed in New Mexico. Please ask him to desist. FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuitResponse.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views he opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... A clear example of the way AOL is manipulated and freedom of speech and conscience are regularly DAMAGED by AOL's indulgence. --Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 11:18 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Board posting at Keyword: BAHA'I <> Please do not send me a form letter instructing me to send "comments regarding activities in a particular forum need to be addressed by the forum's staff or supervisor." This volunteer leader regularly abuses his position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom he and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. He is the problem and cannot be relied on to moderate fairly. The bahai community leader is harassing me and others and trying to suppress all knowledge and discussion about the major lawsuit against the bahai faith recently filed in New Mexico. Please ask him to desist. FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuitResponse.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views he opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... A clear example of the way AOL is manipulated and freedom of speech and conscience are regularly DAMAGED by AOL's indulgence. --Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 11:18 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Board posting at Keyword: BAHA'I <> Please do not send me a form letter instructing me to send "comments regarding activities in a particular forum need to be addressed by the forum's staff or supervisor." This volunteer leader regularly abuses his position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom he and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. He is the problem and cannot be relied on to moderate fairly. The bahai community leader is harassing me and others and trying to suppress all knowledge and discussion about the major lawsuit against the bahai faith recently filed in New Mexico. Please ask him to desist. FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuitResponse.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views he opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... A clear example of the way AOL is manipulated and freedom of speech and conscience are regularly DAMAGED by AOL's indulgence. --Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 6:10 AM Subject: nsa Served Lawsuit Papers The lawyer for the nsa was officially and legally served the lawsuit papers just before the Fourth of July. It had been ignoring them since March. The nsa apparently had the gall to claim it had no control over the Albuquerque lsa.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 8:13 AM Subject: bahai - nsa Served Lawsuit Papers & July 18th Hearing The lawyer for the national spritual assembly of the bahais of the United States was officially and legally served the lawsuit papers just before the Fourth of July. It had been ignoring them since March. The nsa apparently had the temerity to claim it had no control over the Albuquerque lsa.... Both the Albuquerque local spiritual assembly and the nsa have filed motions to dismiss the lawsuit. The county clerk told me on the phone yesterday that the hearing is still scheduled for July 18th in the 2nd District Court in New Mexico. The hearing is open to the public. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 8:14 AM Subject: bahai - Lawsuit - FULL TEXT - Response to Motion to Dismiss In addition to below, be sure to see the original FULL TEXT of the New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuitResponse.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT COUNTY OF BERNALILLO STATE OF NEW MEXICO DEBORAH BUCHHORN, for herself ) and for MINORITY SHAREHOLDER- ) MEMBERS OF THE SPIRITUAL ) ASSEMBLY OF THE BAH ' 'S OF ) ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) vs. ) No. CV 2001-01978 ) ) TRUSTEES OF THE SPIRITUAL ) ASSEMBLY OF THE BAH ' S OF ) ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, and ) THE SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE ) BAH ' 'S OF ALBUQUERQUE, ) NEW MEXICO, a non-profit ) corporation, and the ) NATIONAL SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY ) OF THE BAH ' 'S OF THE ) UNITED STATES, ) an Illinois Corporation, ) ) Defendants. ) PLAINTIFF'S RESPONSE TO DEFENDANT TRUSTEES MOTION TO DISMISS COME NOW Plaintiffs by and through their attorney of record Yorgos Marinakis and for their response state as follows: INTRODUCTION By incorporating in the United States, Defendant Trustees agreed to follow the law of the land, but it is clear from their Motion to Dismiss that they believe the law of the land places them above the law. If the Bahá'í wish to undertake such civil jurisdiction over their members, they must provide due process, which they have failed to provide for seven years. ALLEGED FIRST AMENDMENT ISSUES There are simply and categorically no first amendment issues in this case. Churches are not immune from suit over issues that do not involve religious doctrines: "[w]ithout regard to the governing structure of a particular church, a court may, where appropriate, apply neutral principles of law to determine disputed questions that do not implicate religious doctrine. Jones v. Wolf, supra, 443 U.S. 595, 99 S.Ct. 3020, 61 L.Ed.2d 775. 'Neutral principles' are wholly secular legal rules whose application to religious parties or disputes does not entail theological or doctrinal evaluations." It will be shown below that these "neutral principles" are well-established for religious nonprofit corporations. As a general rule, Courts can decide secular legal questions in cases involving some background issues of religious doctrine, so long as courts do not intrude into determination of doctrinal issues. When the canons of Bahá'í law are in conflict with the law of the land, the canons must yield. Defendant Trustees implicitly assert (Motion to Dismiss, page 9) that this Court cannot hear this case because it involves an intangible or emotional harm to an individual committed by a church. In fact, this case involves violations of New Mexico State corporate law and U.S. corporate common law, not simply offenses to someone's sensibilities. Counts III-V allege violations of statutory duties of corporate officers, Counts VI and VII allege specific violations of filed corporate by-laws, and Counts VIII and IX allege violations of U.S. corporate common law. Count I alleges fraud and Count II alleges libel, not as individual harms but as torts by a corporation upon a minority set of member-shareholders. Defendant Trustees assert (Defendant's Motion, Section B) that their actions are protected by the first amendment as "ecclesiastical" or "internal," simply because they are a religious entity. If that were the rule, then the Catholic Church could have claimed that a priest's decision to commit pederasty was an ecclesiastical decision and therefore not a civil matter. Plaintiffs in actuality allege that Defendant Trustees oppressed and abused minority shareholder-member Plaintiffs, while Defendants National Spiritual Assembly failed to act upon Plaintiffs' appeals. This is simply a case of fraud and oppression on the shareholders, committed by corporate officers, which cases State Courts decide every day. The fact that the corporation is a non-profit religious society is irrelevant, because there are no background issues of religious doctrine in this case. I will now justify that statement. One of the allegations relates to the failure to allow inspection of the corporate books. New Mexico law of non- profit corporations clearly states that corporations must allow its members to inspect all their books and records: "All books and records of a corporation may be inspected by any member, or his agent or attorney, for any proper purpose at any reasonable time." In denying shareholders access to corporate books and records, the corporation has the burden to demonstrate strong and articulable reasons for denying that access, such as improper purpose. Defendant Trustees denied Plaintiff Buchhorn access to their books and failed to demonstrate strong and articulable reasons for doing so, having merely informed Defendant Buchhorn that they needed the guidance of the National Spiritual Assembly. Because the right to inspect books and records by members was a right at common law, Defendants National Spiritual Assembly and knew or should have known that this action by Defendant Trustees violated the law. Named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn's purpose was proper: the "draft" Annual Report showed an admitted 10% discrepancy in the books, and she wanted to investigate it. As another example, Counts III-V allege breach of duties of corporate officers and directors. New Mexico non- profit corporation law clearly states the duties of directors: "A director shall perform his duties as a director including his duties as a member of any committee of the board upon which the director may serve, in good faith, in a manner the director believes to be in or not opposed to the best interests of the corporation and with such care as an ordinary prudent person would use under similar circumstances in a like position." These are the same duties set forth in section 8.30 of the ABA Model Nonprofit Corporation Act (herein "Model Act"). These are the "neutral principles" discussed above in the first excerpt. According to that same Model Act, nondirector officers with discretionary authority have the same general duty of care and loyalty as directors. As delegates of the board of directors, officers are fiduciaries of the corporation and within the scope of their delegated management functions are subject to the same fiduciary duties as are directors. According to the Model Act, to determine whether a director or officer discharged the duty of good faith, the Court must "look to the director's state of mind to see if it evidenced honesty and faithfulness to the director's duties and obligations, or whether there was an intent to take advantage of the corporation. A director of a religious corporation in making a good faith determination may consider what the director believes to be: (1) the religious purpose of the corporation; and (2) applicable religious tenets, canons, laws, policies and authority." (emphasis added) This clearly implies that the Model Act applies to religious corporations. Case law also permits the Court examine the religious purposes or applicable religious laws: "Civil courts adjudicate ecclesiastical matters only when civil or property rights are involved, and then only when their determination is necessary and incident to the adjudication of civil or property rights The courts will inquire only as to what are the rules and decisions of the church and its tribunals, and what parties or factions adhere to them, without questioning their wisdom or propriety[.]" There is, however, no need for the Court in this case to examine the religious purpose of the corporation. Defendant Trustees acted in a manner that would qualify as domestic violence. These actions are so far opposed to the true interests of the corporation as to lead to the clear inference that no one thus acting could have been influenced by any honest desire to secure such interests, but that they must have acted with intent to subserve some ulterior purpose, regardless of the consequences to the corporation and in a manner inconsistent with its interests. Even if this Court finds that the issues in this case involve religious doctrine, it may still hear this case, because decisions by religious entities may be the subject of civil inquiry in cases of alleged fraud: "a civil court might be empowered to examine the propriety of such an appointment [i.e., the ecclesiastical decision of appointment to a Roman Catholic chaplaincy] if it were a product of 'fraud, collusion, or arbitrariness.'" This is precisely thesituation in the instant case. Defendant Trustees have made numerous decisions that Plaintiff alleges were the product of fraud. Moreover, even if this Court finds that the issues in this case are purely ecclesiastical, it may still hear the case, because they may pose a substantial threat to public safety, peace and order: "The courts may not intervene in purely ecclesiastical matters, including church disciplinary actions concerning the conformity of church members to the standards of morals required of them, unless such actions pose a substantial threat to public safety, peace or order. Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 205, 92 S.Ct. 1526, 32 L.Ed.2d 15 (1972); Sherbert v. Verner, 374 U.S. 398, 83 S.Ct. 1790, 10 L.Ed.2d 965 (1963); Paul v. Watchtower of New York, Inc., 819 F.2d 875 (9th Cir. 1987), cert denied, _____U.S.____, 108 S.Ct. 289, 98 L.Ed.2d 249 (1987)." The Bahá'í are the world's second-most widespread religion. Spiritual Assemblies, similar to Defendant, are located in cities across the United States. Widespread abusive and oppressive behavior by these entities is plausible and may represent a substantial threat to public safety, peace or order. Defendant Trustees claim that Plaintiffs' membership in the Bahá'í Faith constitutes implied consent to their government, which confers upon Defendant Trustees' decisions an internal nature deserving of judicial deference (Motion to Dismiss, page 6). However, this situation invites abuse if the Local Spiritual Assembly fails to follow its own commitment to the laws, which Plaintiff alleges they have done here. As discussed above, this Court has the power to determine whether the Bahá'í have followed civil and their own religious law. Defendant Trustees implicitly asserts "'religious questions permeate all of the issues in this case.'" The Supreme Court of New Jersey responded to such an allegation by stating that it was the Court's duty not to refer civil issues to a religious tribunal, but to hear them: "To the contrary, as we have noted, distinct civil issues should have been reserved by the court not merely because it had the discretion to decide them, but also because it had a duty to do so." Plaintiff suggests that if this Court is concerned with the first amendment issues that it follows the recommendations of the Supreme Court of New Jersey, and order the parties to fully brief which issues are religious and which are civil: "It is imperative, in order to avoid unconstitutional entanglements of civil and religious issues and to preserve the right to civil adjudication of secular disputes, for a trial court to specify which issues are religious and therefore to be settled by religious authority; and which issues are civil and to be resolved by the court Thus, when faced with cases such as this, trial courts initially should entertain full briefing and argument by the parties as to what issues are 'religious' and what are 'civil'; and as to what is the proper authority to decide 'religious' questions. By providing complete and clear rulings on such questions before referral to any religious tribunal, a trial court will provide the parties and appellate courts with a clear record for informed review of any possible first amendment issues." ALLEGED PLEADING ISSUES Plaintiffs' Complaint has complied with the New Mexico law of notice pleading, shareholder derivative suit pleading, and fraud pleading. In New Mexico, the theory of pleadings is to give the parties fair notice of the claims and defenses against them, and the grounds upon which they are based. Notice pleading requires only sufficient detail so that the parties and the court will have a fair idea of the action about which the party is complaining and can see the basis for relief. In a shareholder derivative action specifically, the complaint must be verified, the plaintiff must allege that she was a shareholder or member at the time of the transaction in question, and the plaintiff must allege with particularity the efforts she made to obtain the action she desires from the corporation. In Complaints for fraud, the plaintiff must allege the circumstances constituting fraud with particularity. Plaintiffs complied with all these requirements. The Complaint contains numerous specific incidents and factual allegations that involve more than named Plaintiff. Named Plaintiff verified the Complaint. There is no requirement to name all minority shareholders as Defendant Trustees claims. More specifically, as to Defendant Trustees' assertion regarding the libel claim (Motion to Dismiss, Section F, page 11), Plaintiff refers Your Honor to paragraph 31 of the verified Complaint. As to Defendant Trustees' assertion regarding the literature review claim (Motion to Dismiss, Section G, page 12), Defendants' literature review policy facilitated this abusive situation by preventing shareholders from communicating with other shareholders. This policy is in violation of U.S. law: "[t]he statutory right accorded a stockholder to communicate with other shareholders regarding matters of common interest as stockholders is much similar to freedom of speech." The fundamental position occupied this right can be seen by the frequency by which shareholders use it to justify their requests to inspect corporate books and records. In addition to enabling and facilitating the jeopardization of reasonable expectations of minority shareholders, this policy also in and of itself constitutes oppressive behavior. WHEREFORE, for these reasons, Plaintiff requests that this Court DENY Defendant Trustee's Motion to Dismiss. Respectfully submitted, Yorgos D. Marinakis Attorney for Plaintiffs P.O. Box 45923 Rio Rancho, NM 87174 505-459-4664 877-430-9550 (fax) I hereby certify that a true and correct copy of the foregoing was mailed to: Deborah D. Wells on this ____ day of May, 2001. ____________________ Yorgos D. Marinakis ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 8:15 AM Subject: bahai - FULL TEXT - New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 ALSO AT New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuitResponse.htm SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT COUNTY OF BERNALILLO STATE OF NEW MEXICO DEBORAH BUCHHORN, for herself ) and for MINORITY ) MEMBERS OF THE SPIRITUAL ) ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í'S OF ) ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) vs. ) No. CV 2001-01978 ) ) TRUSTEES OF THE SPIRITUAL ) ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í S OF ) ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, and ) THE SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE ) BAHÁ'Í'S OF ALBUQUERQUE, ) NEW MEXICO, a non-profit ) corporation, and the ) NATIONAL SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY ) OF THE BAHÁ'Í'S OF THE ) UNITED STATES, ) an Illinois Corporation, ) ) Defendants. ) VERIFIED COMPLAINT FOR FRAUD, LIBEL, BREACH OF CORPORATE DUTIES, AND DECLARATORY AND INJUNCTIVE RELIEF COMES NOW Plaintiffs by and through their attorney of record, Yorgos D. Marinakis, and for their Complaint states as follows: INTRODUCTION 1. Plaintiffs file this shareholder or member derivative suit against: - the Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Albuquerque, New Mexico (Local Spiritual Assembly, or LSA), - their Trustees, and - the Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of the United States (National Spiritual Assembly, or NSA), with whom the Local Spiritual Assembly and itsTrustees have privity. 2. Plaintiffs allege that Trustees breached their duties as corporate officers. 3. Plaintiffs allege that the National Spiritual Assembly breached their duty of deciding appeals owed to Plaintiffs. 4. Plaintiffs allege that the literature review policies of the Local Spiritual Assembly and the National Spiritual Assembly, which lie in privity, unlawfully prevent shareholders from their right to communicate with other shareholders. 5. Plaintiffs allege that Defendants failed to execute their duties under their corporate by-laws. PARTIES 6. Named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn was a shareholder or member of the Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Albuquerque, New Mexico, at the time of the incidents stated in this Complaint, and she continues to be a member. 7. The Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Albuquerque, New Mexico (Local Spiritual Assembly) is a New Mexico non-profit corporation. Shareholder-members may appeal decisions by the Local Spiritual Assembly to the National Spiritual Assembly. 8. The Trustees of the Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Albuquerque, New Mexico (Trustees) individually reside in Bernalillo County, New Mexico, as a condition of their Trusteeship. Trustees are Kambiz Victory, Ok-Sun and John McHenry, Manijeh Kavelin, Nelson Sapad, Harry and Sondra Day, Owen Creightney, and Carol Caldwell. Jenny Beery was a Trustee during the time of many of these incidents. 9. The Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of the United States (National Spiritual Assembly) is incorporated in and has its principal place of business in Illinois. FACTS 10. The Bahá'í have no clergy. Instead, each community in the Bahá'í Faith annually elects nine Trustees or a "Local Spiritual Assembly," which acts as an agent or subsidiary of the National Spiritual Assembly. Each National Spiritual Assembly answers to the supreme Bahá'í body, The Universal House of Justice. The Universal House of Justice established the Continental Board of Counsellors (sic) to assist them, and the Countinental Board of Counsellors further has the Auxiliary Board to assist them. 11. In the particular situation between the Trustees of the Spiritual Assembly of Bahá'ís of Albuquerque, New Mexico, Defendants Trustees controlled what member activities Plaintiffs were able to engage in and what members they were able to talk to. They stopped them from interacting with friends at member events. They stopped Plaintiffs from serving on committees and stopped their individual activities for personal reasons. They made all the decisions relating to Plaintiffs' membership-related activities. They told named Plaintiff that opinions she may personally hold were bad and implicitly threatened to curtail her presence at member functions. They acted as if the abuse were no big deal, that it was Plaintiff's fault, and denied doing it. They failed to act when one member was physically threatened and shoved by another member. 12. Although Plaintiffs have consistently complied with Defendant Trustees' demands, they have also consistently filed complaints against them with the National and International Bahá'í authorities. This has enraged the Defendant Trustees. 13. Defendant Trustees have never made specific accusations or informed Plaintiffs of wrongdoing, other than vague statements such as "you have issues with the Spiritual Assembly." 14. Therefore, deep-seated animosities and distrust have arisen between Plaintiffs and the Trustees, which are incapable of resolution and thereby present an irreconcilable barrier to the ability of the corporation to function as is. 15. Plaintiffs' reasonable expectations that they would be able to participate in the management and activities of their corporation, as minority shareholders, have been thwarted since at least 1995. 16. Article IV of the LSA by-laws provides that the LSA shall compose differences and disagreements among members of the community. Article VII, section 9 of the NSA by-laws provides that any member of a Bahá'í community may appeal from a decision of his LSA to the NSA. Failure to Allow Inspection of Books and Records 17. The books and records of the corporation have been maintained in an inaccurate and inequitable manner. 18. The year 2000 annual meeting showed a 10%, $10,000 discrepancy in the corporate books. 19. In a letter dated September 3, 2000, named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn informed the Local Spiritual Assembly that she desired to inspect their financial books. Defendants refused. 20. Following mailing of the demand letter, the LSA offered to allow named Plaintiff to inspect the books and records, but under conditions that the Plaintiff deemed in bad faith. Fraudulent Oppression and Prevention of Communications between Shareholders 21. On April 19, 1998, Defendant Trustees ordered named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn to refrain from discussing her "issues" with anyone but Auxiliary Board member Brent Poirier and the Local Spiritual Assembly. Plaintiff complied and appealed to Brent Poirier and the National Spiritual Assembly, who took no action. Defendant LSA has wrapped many of their dealings with members in the cloak of secrecy in a like manner. Electioneering 22. At the Annual Meeting Feast of 1999, Defendant Trustees fraudulently rigged the election of Trustee Nelson Sapad by calling for applause for him three times prior to an election of corporate officers. Plaintiff appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly and Brent Poirier, who took no action. 23. Defendant Trustees or their agents fraudulently rigged the election of Harry and Sondra Day, by introducing them and calling for applause moments before an election of corporate officers. 24. Trustees do not ensure secret balloting at the Annual Meeting Feast. The usual practice is not to use a ballot box, but for members to lay their ballots on a plate or in a basket in plain sight of the election tellers. Ms. Buchhorn appealed to Brent Poirier on at least one election. Mr. Poirier responded by handling the collection basket himself. 25. In the member newsletter and prior to the annual election and during the Annual Meeting Feast, Trustees have used scriptural quotes to draw attention to persons serving on certain committees. Fraudulent and Oppressive Behavior Relating to the TV Show "Spiritual Reality" 26. Plaintiffs conceptualized and produced a TV show named "Spiritual Reality." After 100 showings, during which Defendant Trustees only complimented Plaintiffs, Defendant Trustees, fraudulently and with intent to oppress, mandated major changes in the show. Plaintiffs complied and appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly and Brent Poirier, who took no action. 27. Defendant Trustees, fraudulently and with intent to oppress, ordered Plaintiffs to "temporarily postpone" their television show, "Spiritual Reality." Plaintiff complied, and Defendants never specifically informed Plaintiffs what they had done to precipitate the arbitrary and capricious termination. The effect of this order, namely the termination of the TV show, violated the right of shareholders to communicate with other shareholders. 28. Trustees fraudulently and under false pretences stated that the reasons for termination would be fully discussed at a later meeting, at which meeting those reasons were never discussed. Defendant Trustee Kambiz Victory, employee of channel 41, knew or should have known that a television program cannot be "temporarily postponed." Plaintiffs appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly, who took no action. 29. Defendant Kambiz Victory, a Trustee, fraudulently and with intent to oppress, told named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn in regards to her television show that "Your teaching can have no effect because you are not in unity with the Spiritual Assembly." Defendant knew that Ms. Buchhorn's television show brought in 15% of the information requests during an unrelated major regional advertising campaign by Defendants. Plaintiff appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly, who took no action. 30. Defendant Trustees fraudulently and under false pretences set-up Plaintiffs to a "confession" of their animosity towards Defendant Trustees. Named Plaintiff appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly, who took no action. Other Oppression 31. As an act of individual initiative, named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn organized a Bahá'í parade float for several years for the New Mexico State Fair Parade. In 2000, Defendant Trustees convened a task force to organize the parade float for that year. On August 22, 2000, approximately 19 days before the parade, Defendant Trustees, fraudulently and with intent to oppress, instructed Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn to terminate her parade float activities. A false reason for this termination was published in the membership newsletter by Defendant Trustees, causing Plaintiff embarrassment. Plaintiff complied, and Defendant never informed Plaintiff as to the reason for that termination. Plaintiff appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly and Brent Poirier, who took no action. 32. Defendant Trustees, fraudulently and with intent to oppress, ordered Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn to receive instruction on the Bahá'í Covenant. Plaintiff complied and attended that "instruction," which in fact consisted of three (3) hours of interrogation by Trustee Owen Creightney, and John and Ok-Sun McHenry. It became apparent at this meeting that Trustee Creightney had lied to the Trustees in order to oppress named Plaintiff. Plaintiff appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly and Brent Poirier, who took no action. 33. Defendant Trustees, fraudulently and with intent to oppress, ordered named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn to resign from the Bahá'í gospel choir. Plaintiff complied, and Defendant never informed Plaintiff as to the reason for that termination. Plaintiff appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly and Brent Poirier, who took no action. 34. Defendant Trustees, fraudulently and with intent to oppress, undermined named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn's Saturday Night Coffee House and in effect stopped her Coffee House. Defendant never informed Plaintiff as to these circumstances. Plaintiff appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly and Brent Poirier, who took no action. 35. Defendant Trustees, fraudulently and with intent to oppress, have ordered numerous Bahá'ís to shun Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn. 36. Defendant Trustee Kambiz Victory told a Plaintiff "I am the voice of God in this community." Libel 37. Defendant Trustees knowingly published false and defamatory information about Plaintiffs in the Albuquerque Bahá'í newsletter, specifically relating to the parade banner. Unlawful Prevention of Communication between Shareholders 38. Defendant National Spiritual Assembly has the policy that Local Spiritual Assemblies are responsible for reviewing pamphlets and newsletters and materials that mention the Faith such as songs, play scripts, souvenir items, and greeting cards, intended for publication or distribution within their communities, whereas the National Spiritual Assembly is responsible for review of those same materials intended for nationwide publication. CAUSES OF ACTION Count I 39. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporate all previous paragraphs. 40. The Trustees of the Local Spiritual Assembly have repeatedly acted and continue to act fraudulently towards the Plaintiffs. 41. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. Count II 42. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporate all previous paragraphs. 43. The Trustees of the Local Spiritual Assembly libeled the named Plaintiff. 44. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. Count III 45. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporate all previous paragraphs. 46. The Trustees of the Local Spiritual Assembly have repeatedly failed to act and continue to fail to act in good faith, which failure constitutes fraud. 47. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. Count IV 48. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporates all previous paragraphs. 49. The Trustees of the Local Spiritual Assembly have repeatedly failed to act and continue to fail to act with the care an ordinary prudent person in like position would exercise under similar circumstances, which failure constitute fraud.50. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. Count V 51. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporate all previous paragraphs. 52. The Trustees of the Local Spiritual Assembly have repeatedly failed to act and continue to fail to act in a manner they reasonably believe to be in the best interests of the corporation and its members, which failure constitutes fraud. 53. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. Count VI 54. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporate all previous paragraphs. 55. The Trustees have repeatedly failed their duty to compose differences and disagreements with themselves and the members, in violation of their by-laws, which failure constitutes fraud. 56. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. Count VII 57. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporate all previous paragraphs. 58. The National Spiritual Assembly has repeatedly failed their duty to hear appeals from Plaintiffs, in violation of their by-laws. 59. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. Count VIII 60. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporate all previous paragraphs. 61. The literature review policies of the National and Local Spiritual Assemblies violate the rights of corporate members to communicate with other corporate members. 62. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. Count IX 63. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporate all previous paragraphs. 64. The practice of the Local Spiritual Assembly to direct members not to speak about their dealings with the LSA with other corporate members violates the rights of corporate members to communicate with other corporate members. 65. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. JUDICIAL RELIEF WHEREFORE, for these reasons, Plaintiffs request that this Court: 1. Declare that the Trustees acted fraudulently towards Plaintiffs; 2. Declare that Trustees libeled Plaintiffs; 3. Declare that the Trustees breached their corporate duties towardsPlaintiffs; 4. Remove the Trustees from their positions and enjoin them from serving in official Bahá'ís capacities for nineteen (19) years; 5. Remove the LSA Directors who are also Trustees; 6. Declare that the Local Spiritual Assembly violated members' rights to inspect corporate books and records; 7. Compel Defendant LSA to retain an independent certified public accountant to audit the books for the last two years; 8. Declare that Defendant LSA violated their corporate by-laws by failing to compose differences and disagreements among members of the community; 6. Declare that the National Spiritual Assembly breached their duty of hearing Plaintiffs' appeals; 7. Declare that the literature review policies of the Bahá'ís violate United States common law as preventing corporate members from communicating with other corporate members; 8. Enjoin Defendants National Spiritual Assembly and Local Spiritual Assembly from enforcing their literature review policy; 9. Declare that the secrecy practices of the Local Spiritual Assembly violate United States common law as preventing corporate members from communicating with other corporate members; 10. Enjoin Defendant Local Spiritual Assembly from continuing their secrecy practices; 11. Award compensatory damages from Defendants to Plaintiffs; 12. Award attorney's fees and costs to Plaintiffs; 13. Any other relief this Court deems appropriate. Respectfully submitted, ___________________________ Yorgos D. Marinakis Attorney for Plaintiffs P.O. Box 45923 Rio Rancho, NM 87174 505-459-4664 877-430-9550 (fax) Named Plaintiff's Verification STATE OF NEW MEXICO ) ) ss. COUNTY OF BERNALILLO) COMES NOW Deborah Buchhorn, and being duly sworn, states as follows: 1. I have read and understood the contents of this Complaint. 2. I have personal knowledge of the facts stated herein. 3. I attest to and verify their truth and accuracy.__________________________ DEBORAH BUCHHORN SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED before me this __ day of ______, 2001. ________________________ Notary Public My Commission Expires: ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 8:41 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9iqvl9$klesa$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > > "Michael McKenny" wrote in message > news:9ipeom$9uo$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > > Greetings, Fred. > > Many thanks for this statement. > > I can understand how this action could have resulted in confusion. I > > think that if the Secretary of the Ottawa SF Society received such a > > communication, s/he might assume that the person returning the address > > label of the OSFS STATEMENT was not only requesting that the club > > newsletter not be sent, but resigning from the organization. You may > > wish to clarify matters by asking them to ensure your name is on the > > membership rolls, but not on the address list for mailings of the > > newsletter, and also make clear what other correspondence you're willing > to > > receive. > > Hi Michael, Michael, I don't agree with you here. Dermod, rather, is on target on this one. I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be removed from the mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, no threat, etc.... Dermod's speculation that willingness to receive the American Bahai has become compulsory should give many people pause.... I would now, for the first time, be happy to share with the both of you and others, the letter I received back on nsa letterhead, if you're interested in reading it. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm > > I would have thought Fred's instruction was clear enough - he did not wish > to receive further copies of the "American Bahai." > > The thought does cross my mind that willingness to receive copies of the > "American Bahai" is now a compulsory aspect of membership of the Bahai > Community. Failure so to do may now be regarded as "covenantly challenging" > behaviour. There may be guidance from the Guardian somewhere on this very > thing - it may have been added as footnote to one of his letters and only > recently discovered. Can anybody provide elucidation on this? Do > "declaration cards" now contain this proviso? > > As ever, > > Dermod > > > > > > > "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing" (patrick_henry@liberty.com) > writes: > > > "Michael McKenny" wrote in message > > > news:9ikn3l$rlf$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > > >> Hi, Fred. > > >> Are you saying that all you said was you did not want to continue > > >> receiving the AMerican Baha'i, that you did not ask the Baha'i > authorities > > >> to not contact you, in other words that your understanding of your > > >> communication was that Baha'i authorities could contact you about > anything > > >> as long as they did not send you this newsletter? > > >> Thrive, > > >> Michael > > > > > > > > > Michael, > > > > > > In 1996 I tore off the regularly printed label on my monthly copy > > > of the American Bahai for address changes and wrote on it "Please > > > remove my name and address from your mailing list." I then mailed it > > > and waited a few months hoping I would no longer find it in my mailbox. > > > They continued to send it. For at least a second time, and perhaps a > > > third time, several months going by, I used the printed label and mailed > > > it in with "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list" > > > handwritten on it with no other comment or explanation whatsoever. > > > > > > That's fact number one, let's call it. I want to establish first > > > FACT number one before discussing anything beyond it. > > > > > > -- > > > Frederick Glaysher > > > www.fglaysher.com > > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > > > https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 5:27 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Michael, Note well that I used the address on the back of the American Bahai given specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write the nsa, its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the simplest of requests: remove my name and address from your mailing list. Not a word or suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith nor any criticism of it whatsover, real nor implied. I don't believe there's any relevant basis for extrapolating from your experiences and assumptions in other contexts. I have already, twice and perhaps a third time, if memory serves, conveyed my wishes to the proper address. That I received a response back from an entirely different address speaks volumes, as they say. After six years, I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. I've scanned the letter so you and others might read the original. Once we clarify this initial point, I'll post a link to it. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:9it82v$6mq$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Greetings, Fred. > Many thanks for your comments. I wasn't questioning what you say was > your intended communication. I was just expressing the opinion that you > may have been misunderstood. I have been a member of a number of varied > organizations, often at an executive level, and I think if someone said > we'd received the label of the newsletter back with the notation "Please > remove my name from the address list," the first thought would be this > person is resigning from the club. Now, depending on the context, I > might very easily have investigated the hypothetical situation, to see > what reason the member had for resigning, and, in many cases been happy > to report back that actually s/he only wishes not to receive so > unappealing a newsletter, but is still interested in the club per se. > Since I would have been happy to convey such news to the rest of the > executive in such an hypothetical case, or to be frankly honest, less than > happy were certain members I've known in some clubs to have dampened my > jubilation by informing me they still intend attending meetings, merely > not being up to reading the newsletter, nevertheless I'd have conveyed > the news, let's provide the USA NSA Secretery the opportunity to show > what he'd do in a like circumstance. Convey to the USA NSA that you only > meant you'd not like to receive your AMERICAN BAHAI NEWS. You still wish > to remain a member of the organization. > Let's see what happens. > I see. Yes, by all means, I'd be happy to read the letter. > Thrive, > Michael > > "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing" (patrick_henry@liberty.com) writes: > > > > > > Michael, I don't agree with you here. Dermod, rather, is on target on > > this one. I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be > > removed from the mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, > > no threat, etc.... Dermod's speculation that willingness to receive the > > American Bahai has become compulsory should give many people pause.... > > > > I would now, for the first time, be happy to share with the both of you > > and others, the letter I received back on nsa letterhead, if you're > > interested in reading it. > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > www.fglaysher.com > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > > https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm > > > > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: Yorgos Marinakis[SMTP:Yorgos.Marinakis@bwn.net] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 4:35 PM To: Nima Hazini; Frederick Glaysher Gentlemen, The judge has not yet ruled on the Motions to Dismiss (You see, the NSA filed one as well.). I will not hazard a guess, as Judge Scott has great integrity as a neutral. I think they lost in a very big way, and from the looks on their faces, I think they agree. We can expect a ruling within a week. I contacted the police regarding possible financial wrong doings by the LSA, and now the LSA-NSA attorney is threatening to report me to the disciplinary board for "using threat of criminal action to gain an advantage in civil litigation." It's outrageous. Best regards, Yorgos Marinakis, Ph.D. Attorney-at-law, MA # 645664, NM# 10078 P.O. Box 45923 Rio Rancho, NM 87174-5923 505-459-4664 (cell) 877-430-9550 (toll-free fax) Yorgos.Marinakis@abanet.org ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 7:07 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Michael, Note well that I used the address on the back of the American Bahai given specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write the nsa, its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the simplest of requests: remove my name and address from your mailing list. Not a word or suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith nor any criticism of it whatsover, real nor implied. I don't believe there's any relevant basis for extrapolating from your experiences and assumptions in other contexts. I have already, twice and perhaps a third time, if memory serves, conveyed my wishes to the proper address. That I received a response back from an entirely different address speaks volumes, as they say. After six years, I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. I've scanned the letter so you and others might read the original. Once we clarify this initial point, I'll post a link to it. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:9it82v$6mq$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Greetings, Fred. > Many thanks for your comments. I wasn't questioning what you say was > your intended communication. I was just expressing the opinion that you > may have been misunderstood. I have been a member of a number of varied > organizations, often at an executive level, and I think if someone said > we'd received the label of the newsletter back with the notation "Please > remove my name from the address list," the first thought would be this > person is resigning from the club. Now, depending on the context, I > might very easily have investigated the hypothetical situation, to see > what reason the member had for resigning, and, in many cases been happy > to report back that actually s/he only wishes not to receive so > unappealing a newsletter, but is still interested in the club per se. > Since I would have been happy to convey such news to the rest of the > executive in such an hypothetical case, or to be frankly honest, less than > happy were certain members I've known in some clubs to have dampened my > jubilation by informing me they still intend attending meetings, merely > not being up to reading the newsletter, nevertheless I'd have conveyed > the news, let's provide the USA NSA Secretery the opportunity to show > what he'd do in a like circumstance. Convey to the USA NSA that you only > meant you'd not like to receive your AMERICAN BAHAI NEWS. You still wish > to remain a member of the organization. > Let's see what happens. > I see. Yes, by all means, I'd be happy to read the letter. > Thrive, > Michael > > "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing" (patrick_henry@liberty.com) writes: > > > > > > Michael, I don't agree with you here. Dermod, rather, is on target on > > this one. I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be > > removed from the mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, > > no threat, etc.... Dermod's speculation that willingness to receive the > > American Bahai has become compulsory should give many people pause.... > > > > I would now, for the first time, be happy to share with the both of you > > and others, the letter I received back on nsa letterhead, if you're > > interested in reading it. > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > www.fglaysher.com > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > > https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm > > > > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 7:27 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Dermod, You understand well how I view matters in this regard. I am not about to accept the slander and backbiting of fanatics and fundamentalists nor allow them to provoke me into one action or another. I prefer the facts: I declared my belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976 and notified the NSA. I have never notified them otherwise. They, as distinguished from liars and sycophants online, have never notified me otherwise. I'll post a URL now in this thread to the letter I received in 1996 after requesting to the subcription address for the American Bahai to "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9ja0d2$n5csh$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > > "Roger Reini" wrote in message > news:lDJYO541sMsqUSmxeU9kiv9xqyuc@4ax.com... > > > > Then there is a difference of opinion between you and the US National > > Center regarding your status in the US Baha'i community. You believe > > you should still be regarded as a member in good standing. The US > > National Center and/or the US National Spiritual Assembly disagree, as > > they removed your name from the rolls 2 years ago. > > > > Given the nature of your posts and communications here over the last > > several years, I am not surprised by National's decision. But here is > > an opportunity to clear up your status. If you feel that you were > > unjustly removed from the rolls, then by all means plead your case to > > the National Spiritual Assembly. > > There is certainly a "difference of opinion" because it would appear that > the NSA has told everybody that it has removed Fred from the membership > lists .... everybody that is except Fred! > > Far be it from me to suggest that he should have been the first to be > informed of this action - after all, I do appreciate that this is the NSA we > are talking about and making a bollix of a situation is its very purpose in > existence. Now why should Fred plead his case when he has not been > officially told that he has been removed from the lists? Surely if the NSA > had any honour at all it would summon up the courage to tell him what it had > done and apologise for the fact that it has told every other person about > its action but not the one directlt affected! > > I realise that the concepts of honour, decency and honesty come hard to any > Bahai institution but they really are going to have to try harder if they > expect to garner any respect from other than the dedicated but small band of > weary apologists. > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 7:31 AM Subject: "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." (was Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing) In 1996 my request to the circulation department for the American Bahai, repeated twice and perhaps a third time, read, "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/nsa1996.htm The other two letters were related to the Detroit nsa and its junk mail. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:9j9mp9$mr1$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Greetings, Patrick. > As I constsntly urge, could there please be more than a url posted > here. Could the actual communication please be posted to this newsgroup. > Thrive, > Michael > > > "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing" (patrick_henry@liberty.com) writes: > > Michael, > > > > Note well that I used the address on the back of the American Bahai > > given specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write > > the nsa, its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the > > simplest of requests: remove my name and address from your mailing > > list. Not a word or suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith > > nor any criticism of it whatsover, real nor implied. I don't believe there's > > any relevant basis for extrapolating from your experiences and > > assumptions in other contexts. I have already, twice and perhaps a third > > time, if memory serves, conveyed my wishes to the proper address. That > > I received a response back from an entirely different address speaks > > volumes, as they say. > > > > After six years, I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. > > > > I've scanned the letter so you and others might read the original. Once we > > clarify this initial point, I'll post a link to it. > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > www.fglaysher.com > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > > https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm > > > > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 7:36 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Messages to HAIFA In addition to below, be sure to see FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm ------------------------------------------------------ My crossposts to soc.culture.israel, soc.culture.iranian, and talk.religion.misc are entirely within the acceptable parameters for crossposting to newsgroups related to the subject at hand: The bahai faith *began* in Iran in 1844, the major bahai religious sites and institutions are *located* in HAIFA *Israel*, *all* religions may join discussion on talk.religion.misc. The unsuspecting public ought to be informed and have the opportunity to judge and decide the facts for itself. It should be evident to any intelligent person that bahai fundamentalists have a hidden agenda and their self-interest in mind when they malign me and many, many other people on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet.org, and elsewhere. Since fundamentalists among my fellow bahais have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere, and the Internet now no longer makes that possible, as dramatically demonstrated with the former USSR and China, the "universal" house of "justice," like other totalitarian regimes, will have to confront and answer for the consequences of its own hypocrisy. Slandering me for "spamming" also won't prevent perceptive people from realizing what's really going on.... Those interested in judging independently for themselves my background and whether I'm "unbalanced," as bahai fundamentalist struggle to portray me, may do so by reading my Biographical Note: https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm I believe it is my duty, bahai and otherwise, to inform my fellow citizens, local and global, of the appalling and incessant hypocrisy that lies behind the deceptively progressive facade that the uhj regularly fobs off on the unsuspecting public.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm "Roger Reini" wrote in message news:4Q5YO4gaziOo8vMAizIdikdlgAnr@4ax.com... > On Fri, 20 Jul 2001 00:16:45 +0200, Hallaj wrote: > > >Mister, > > > >SOC.CULTURE.IRANIAN is stablished for discussions related to Iran. You > >post about Baha'i faith is considered pure religious matter and should > >not be posted to this forum. You yourself have already admitted the > >irrelevance of your post as you have cross posted it to several groups > >which are not in the same hierarchy. Such attitudes are therefore > >considered as religious propaganda and makes your weak reputation of > >your faith even weaker in Iranian society. > > > >Hallaj > > > > The vast majority of the readers of ARB and TRB agree with your > contention that the crossposts are inappropriate and off-topic in the > two SCI newsgroups. Might I suggest that future complaints about > excessive inappropriate crossposting be directed to the owners of the > originating news server. For convenience, I have reproduced the > headers from one of the crossposted messages: > > Path: > spln!rex!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.ma xwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!super news.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail > From: "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing" > > Newsgroups: > alt.religion.bahai,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.israel,talk.religion.baha i,talk.religion.misc > Subject: bahai - Messages to HAIFA > Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:21:31 -0400 > Organization: https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm > Message-ID: > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 > X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com > Lines: 142 > Xref: spln alt.religion.bahai:30287 soc.culture.iranian:243804 > soc.culture.israel:317595 talk.religion.bahai:25202 > talk.religion.misc:280396 > > Followups set to ARB and TRB. > > Roger (roger@rreini.com) > https://www.rreini.com/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 2:49 PM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Michael, See my other message in this thread. In 1996 my request to the circulation department for the American Bahai, repeated twice and perhaps a third time, read, "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/nsa1996.htm The other two letters were related to the Detroit nsa and its junk mail. "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:9jc1mc$d64$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Greetings, Fred, Roger, et al. > Please forgive me. Frederick, could you kindly remind me when it was > you returned that label from the AMERICAN BAHA'I NEWS, what was the date? > If you received any response, when was that? See URL above. > Roger, what date do you have for Frederick having his name removed > from the rolls? I may have misremembered Fred's comments, but, it seems > possible it took them several years to act on his request? I never made, nor have ever made, such a request. My request, to the subscription service for the American Bahai, was for my name and address to be removed from its mailing list. Nothing more. No communication whatsoever was sent by me to the nsa. > Anyway, looking forward to having this clarified. > Fred, could you please post here any response you may have received > from the National Centre. > Thrive, > Michael -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Nima Hazini[SMTP:lotusapt@wxc.com.au] Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 1:55 AM To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Deborah Buchhorn vs LSA/NSA fyi - Summary of Hearing on Defendants' Motions to Dismiss in the case of DEBORAH BUCHHORN, for herself) and for MINORITY MEMBERS OF THE SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í'S OF ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, Plaintiffs, vs. TRUSTEES OF THE SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í S OF ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, and THE SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í'S OF ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, a non-profit corporation, and the NATIONAL SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í'S OF THE UNITED STATES, an Illinois Corporation, Defendants. Case No. CV 2001-01978 July 18, 2001, 10:30 AM Judge Scott in Albuquerque, NM The Local Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of Albuquerque and The National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States are the DEFENDANTS. Deborah Buchhorn is the Plaintiff. The Plaintiff filed a complaint against the Defendants for various wrongs committed against her as a member of the Baha'i Faith by the local and national institutions. The Defendants filed a Motion to Dismiss the Complaint based upon subject matter jurisdiction and failure to state a claim upon which relief may be granted. In addition the NSA brought a separate Motion to Dismiss challenging the Court's personal jurisdiction of the NSA, a non-citizen of New Mexico. The Defendants' attorney argued first. She said that the complaint was barred on First Amendment grounds, that all of the plaintiffs (minority shareholder/members of the LSA community) were not named as required by the Rules, that it was a corporate derivative suit that was not appropriate, that it pleads fraud but fails to plead with particularity as required by the Rules, that the defamation action was barred by admissions of the Plaintiff, and that it claimed an unspecified right to communicate that does not exist. The Defendants argued that the free exercise clause of the First Amendment bars the claim. The relief requested in the complaint that: 1) seeks to remove the Trustees of the LSA from serving in that capacity for 19 years, 2) enjoin the NSA an LSA from enforcing its literature review policy; 3) seeks determination that Defendants' secrecy practices violated the law; and 4) enjoin the Defendants from following their secrecy practices. These claims for relief demonstrate that the complaint involves a religious controversy. The US Supreme Court has ruled (in a number of cases cited in the briefs) that civil courts must abstain from religious controversies. The long line of US Supreme Court cases state that church government must not be interfered with by civil courts, and there can be no review or entanglement of the courts with religious affairs. In the Baha'i Teachings, the Baha'is must obey the Institutions and may not engage in backbiting or questioning of the decisions of the LSA or NSA, for the sake of unity and harmony. The Teaching of 'Abdu'l-Baha was that God would right any wrong as long as the Baha'is remain united in obedience to the Institutions. These are the religious teachings of the Baha'i Faith and the secular courts must not entangle themselves in it. The Defendants next argued that the complaint is brought on behalf of un-named minority shareholders of the LSA of Albuquerque. The court rules of procedure require that they all be named, and for that reason the complaint should be dismissed. Next, the Defendants argued that the complaint is improperly plead as a derivative suit. An appropriate derivative suit is where a member of a corporation seeks to exercise a right that the corporation has (but has failed to exercise that right on its own). In this complaint, the Plaintiff seeks redress for alleged wrongdoing against her --- not wrongdoing against the corporation. Thus, a derivative action is not appropriate. The next argument was that the complaint failed to plead fraud with particularity. That is, it must state facts showing the time, place, and contents of the fraudulent communication, the identity of the person making it, and what he obtained through the fraud. The complaint therefore fails to state a claim for fraud. As for the defamation claim, paragraph 13 of the Plaintiff's complaint admits that the Defendants did not defame her. As for the alleged right to communicate, the Defendants argued that it was vague and not specified as to what right this is. The Defendants know of no such legal right. The Plaintiff's attorney argued next. The Plaintiff argued that for many years she was oppressed, defrauded,and abused in the manner of the Soviet KGB by Baha'i leaders. She appealed repeatedly to the NSA but received no relief. Plaintiff argued that Baha'is have the belief that the Universal House of Justice is infallible, but that they have misunderstood the Arabic word used by 'Abdu'l-Baha which translates into "morally immaculate" rather than infallible in the Papal sense. American Baha'is view their Institutions as divinely guided and therefore they are particularly susceptible to authoritarian control techniques utilized by their leaders. Most of the Baha'is view the victims of the these authoritarian control techniques as being sources of disunity in the community. The Plaintiff next argued against the NSA's attempt to avoid personal jurisdiction of the court. She argued that the NSA and LSA are a single entity. The NSA asserts exclusive jurisdiction and authority over the LSA, tells the LSA what their bylaws are to be, and states in its own publications that the LSA is subject absolutely to NSA authority and jurisdiction, and that the LSA must obey and sustain the NSA. As for the First Amendment issue, the Plaintiff argues that the assertion of a religious privilege should be raised by a motion for summary judgment instead of as an attack on the pleadings. It is a substantive defense and does not prevent a cause of action from being stated. The First Amendment protects the spiritual aspect of religious teaching, except in cases of fraud (and this complaint is for fraud). As for the temporal duties of the Baha'i leadership, the First Amendment does not protect them. If the court accepted the Defendants arguments, then religions would not be accountable to any court or anyone or anything else except their own religious laws. The complaint deals with elections, inspection of books and records, and fraudulent activity in operating the corporation --- these are not religious issues. The First Amendment does not protect fraud. The Plaintiff's attorney said that he has a tape recording of Defendants attempting to extract confessions out of Baha'is. The Defendants carry tape recorders. He said the complaint details oppression by the Baha'i leadership against the Plaintiff and that religious law must yield to violations of state law against oppression. As for the shareholder derivative suit, Plaintiff argued that it was properly plead. The LSA has multiple causes of action against the NSA that the LSA has failed to assert. The NSA ignored all appeals. There is no rule that all of the plaintiffs be named in a derivative suit. As for fraud, NM law says that only the circumstances of fraud must be plead with particularity -- not the evidence. The Defendants next argued rebuttal. There is no rational way to interpret the allegations of the complaint and the request for relief other than that she is a Baha'i that requires obedience to the LSA and NSA, and that resort to the secular courts is not appropriate. Religious dispute would entangle the courts. Defendant NSA next argued the NSA's personal jurisdiction question. There is a 3 part test. Plaintiff has burden of showing that NSA committed an act to submit itself to jurisdiction of NM court, Plaintiff's cause of action arouse out of that act, and that the NSA had sufficient minimal contacts with NM. Act complained of in complaint is how the NSA handled appeals and its literature review policy. NSA has offices in Illinois. The acts complained of occurred in Illinois. The NSA has no office, bank account, phone, no address in New Mexico. None of the NSA members are residents of New Mexico. There is no registered agent and no meetings of the NSA in New Mexico. The only thing plaintiff could identify that NSA did in New Mexico was pay for media advertising to introduce public to the Baha'i Faith. That is not an act under NM law that subjects the NSA to jurisdiction here. There is nothing to show that Plaintiff's cause of action arouse of that act (advertising). And there were no minimal contacts to satisfy due process concerns. Judge Scott remarked that it appeared the NSA filed a general appearance (suggesting that the NSA had waived its personal jurisdiction challenge by failing to file special appearance). Judge Scott took the case under advisement. He will rule by mail. This reporter will follow up in a month to see if the order is on file. Jeffrey Goldberg ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 7:22 AM Subject: Summary of Hearing on Defendants' Motions to Dismiss - July 18, 2001 Thanks, Nima, for the copy. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm Summary of Hearing on Defendants' Motions to Dismiss in the case of DEBORAH BUCHHORN, for herself) and for MINORITY MEMBERS OF THE SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í'S OF ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, Plaintiffs, vs. TRUSTEES OF THE SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í S OF ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, and THE SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í'S OF ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, a non-profit corporation, and the NATIONAL SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í'S OF THE UNITED STATES, an Illinois Corporation, Defendants. Case No. CV 2001-01978 July 18, 2001, 10:30 AM Judge Scott in Albuquerque, NM The Local Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of Albuquerque and The National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States are the DEFENDANTS. Deborah Buchhorn is the Plaintiff. The Plaintiff filed a complaint against the Defendants for various wrongs committed against her as a member of the Baha'i Faith by the local and national institutions. The Defendants filed a Motion to Dismiss the Complaint based upon subject matter jurisdiction and failure to state a claim upon which relief may be granted. In addition the NSA brought a separate Motion to Dismiss challenging the Court's personal jurisdiction of the NSA, a non-citizen of New Mexico. The Defendants' attorney argued first. She said that the complaint was barred on First Amendment grounds, that all of the plaintiffs (minority shareholder/members of the LSA community) were not named as required by the Rules, that it was a corporate derivative suit that was not appropriate, that it pleads fraud but fails to plead with particularity as required by the Rules, that the defamation action was barred by admissions of the Plaintiff, and that it claimed an unspecified right to communicate that does not exist. The Defendants argued that the free exercise clause of the First Amendment bars the claim. The relief requested in the complaint that: 1) seeks to remove the Trustees of the LSA from serving in that capacity for 19 years, 2) enjoin the NSA an LSA from enforcing its literature review policy; 3) seeks determination that Defendants' secrecy practices violated the law; and 4) enjoin the Defendants from following their secrecy practices. These claims for relief demonstrate that the complaint involves a religious controversy. The US Supreme Court has ruled (in a number of cases cited in the briefs) that civil courts must abstain from religious controversies. The long line of US Supreme Court cases state that church government must not be interfered with by civil courts, and there can be no review or entanglement of the courts with religious affairs. In the Baha'i Teachings, the Baha'is must obey the Institutions and may not engage in backbiting or questioning of the decisions of the LSA or NSA, for the sake of unity and harmony. The Teaching of 'Abdu'l-Baha was that God would right any wrong as long as the Baha'is remain united in obedience to the Institutions. These are the religious teachings of the Baha'i Faith and the secular courts must not entangle themselves in it. The Defendants next argued that the complaint is brought on behalf of un-named minority shareholders of the LSA of Albuquerque. The court rules of procedure require that they all be named, and for that reason the complaint should be dismissed. Next, the Defendants argued that the complaint is improperly plead as a derivative suit. An appropriate derivative suit is where a member of a corporation seeks to exercise a right that the corporation has (but has failed to exercise that right on its own). In this complaint, the Plaintiff seeks redress for alleged wrongdoing against her --- not wrongdoing against the corporation. Thus, a derivative action is not appropriate. The next argument was that the complaint failed to plead fraud with particularity. That is, it must state facts showing the time, place, and contents of the fraudulent communication, the identity of the person making it, and what he obtained through the fraud. The complaint therefore fails to state a claim for fraud. As for the defamation claim, paragraph 13 of the Plaintiff's complaint admits that the Defendants did not defame her. As for the alleged right to communicate, the Defendants argued that it was vague and not specified as to what right this is. The Defendants know of no such legal right. The Plaintiff's attorney argued next. The Plaintiff argued that for many years she was oppressed, defrauded,and abused in the manner of the Soviet KGB by Baha'i leaders. She appealed repeatedly to the NSA but received no relief. Plaintiff argued that Baha'is have the belief that the Universal House of Justice is infallible, but that they have misunderstood the Arabic word used by 'Abdu'l-Baha which translates into "morally immaculate" rather than infallible in the Papal sense. American Baha'is view their Institutions as divinely guided and therefore they are particularly susceptible to authoritarian control techniques utilized by their leaders. Most of the Baha'is view the victims of the these authoritarian control techniques as being sources of disunity in the community. The Plaintiff next argued against the NSA's attempt to avoid personal jurisdiction of the court. She argued that the NSA and LSA are a single entity. The NSA asserts exclusive jurisdiction and authority over the LSA, tells the LSA what their bylaws are to be, and states in its own publications that the LSA is subject absolutely to NSA authority and jurisdiction, and that the LSA must obey and sustain the NSA. As for the First Amendment issue, the Plaintiff argues that the assertion of a religious privilege should be raised by a motion for summary judgment instead of as an attack on the pleadings. It is a substantive defense and does not prevent a cause of action from being stated. The First Amendment protects the spiritual aspect of religious teaching, except in cases of fraud (and this complaint is for fraud). As for the temporal duties of the Baha'i leadership, the First Amendment does not protect them. If the court accepted the Defendants arguments, then religions would not be accountable to any court or anyone or anything else except their own religious laws. The complaint deals with elections, inspection of books and records, and fraudulent activity in operating the corporation --- these are not religious issues. The First Amendment does not protect fraud. The Plaintiff's attorney said that he has a tape recording of Defendants attempting to extract confessions out of Baha'is. The Defendants carry tape recorders. He said the complaint details oppression by the Baha'i leadership against the Plaintiff and that religious law must yield to violations of state law against oppression. As for the shareholder derivative suit, Plaintiff argued that it was properly plead. The LSA has multiple causes of action against the NSA that the LSA has failed to assert. The NSA ignored all appeals. There is no rule that all of the plaintiffs be named in a derivative suit. As for fraud, NM law says that only the circumstances of fraud must be plead with particularity -- not the evidence. The Defendants next argued rebuttal. There is no rational way to interpret the allegations of the complaint and the request for relief other than that she is a Baha'i that requires obedience to the LSA and NSA, and that resort to the secular courts is not appropriate. Religious dispute would entangle the courts. Defendant NSA next argued the NSA's personal jurisdiction question. There is a 3 part test. Plaintiff has burden of showing that NSA committed an act to submit itself to jurisdiction of NM court, Plaintiff's cause of action arouse out of that act, and that the NSA had sufficient minimal contacts with NM. Act complained of in complaint is how the NSA handled appeals and its literature review policy. NSA has offices in Illinois. The acts complained of occurred in Illinois. The NSA has no office, bank account, phone, no address in New Mexico. None of the NSA members are residents of New Mexico. There is no registered agent and no meetings of the NSA in New Mexico. The only thing plaintiff could identify that NSA did in New Mexico was pay for media advertising to introduce public to the Baha'i Faith. That is not an act under NM law that subjects the NSA to jurisdiction here. There is nothing to show that Plaintiff's cause of action arouse of that act (advertising). And there were no minimal contacts to satisfy due process concerns. Judge Scott remarked that it appeared the NSA filed a general appearance (suggesting that the NSA had waived its personal jurisdiction challenge by failing to file special appearance). Judge Scott took the case under advisement. He will rule by mail. This reporter will follow up in a month to see if the order is on file. Jeffrey Goldberg ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 7:59 AM Subject: website moving to Angelfire.com - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience NBCI has been bought out, I've read, and is no longer operating effectively. I've decided to move my website to Angelfire.com and will be phasing out NBCI. Revisions now posted to https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 11:06 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Thanks, Dermod, You sum up well exactly how I have felt about it all in 1996 and now for over five years.... years during which I have been constantly hounded by this person and other fundamentalists attempting to cover the oppressive and dishonest acts of the nsa. Let's hope Judge Scott in Albuquerque possesses the high sense of justice Baha'u'llah extolled: "The best beloved of all things in my sight is Justice." -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9jelt9$lsomn$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > > "Roger Reini" wrote in message > news:xg5aOy2sovx2cwfXbupNwINusgA3@4ax.com... > > > > I saw the messages posted at that URL, > > https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/nsa1996.htm. The Office of > > the Secretary had some questions as to your desired status within the > > Baha'i community and asked you for clarification. I do not know > > whether you responded. > > What you're telling us is that refusal, for any reason, to be in receipt of > "The American Bahai" is viewed as "covenantly challenging" behaviour. Has > the declaration card now been rewritten to include belief in the Central > figures, acceptance of the AO and eternal willingness to let your name > remain on the mailing list for this rather obscure and boring publication? > > Fred asked to have his name removed from the mailing list for "The American > Bahai" - it was assumed that he had some more nefarious purpose in mind so > they wrote asking him if he wished to be removed from the rolls, something > he did not request at any time. This at least answers one question - that > the ultimate criterion for being a BIGS in the US is receipt of "The > American Bahai". If we can get that mailing list we will have for sure the > exact membership as recognised by the NSA. Anybody care to contact Wilmette > to enquire as to whether or not all those no longer in receipt of this > publication have been removed from the rolls? > > > > > Sometime between then and February 1999 (the date of your removal from > > the rolls, according to the note posted here on numerous occasions), > > the National Center had to have become aware of information that led > > to its decision. Again, I repeat, you should contact the National > > Center to discuss your status, if you wish. > > Wrong again, Roger, it's up to National to contact him or at least make some > effort so to do BEFORE removing his name from the rolls! > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:44 AM Subject: "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." For the sake of non-bahai observers who may happen along here, I mention that I refuse to waste my time answering the liars and deceivers among my fellow bahais who are only distorting the record for Gharidian and other ao hacks to whom they kowtow.... and who ignore the fact that I NEVER wrote the nsa to begin with. The deceptions are the familiar ones: change the subject, deliberately confuse events, etc. https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm The ball is in their court. They owe me an explanation of why they chose to take an innocuous request to be removed from the American Bahai mailing list and handled it in the way they did. Futhermore, they owe an apology to my wife . https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20010723213626.05128.00001513@ng-fi1.aol.com... > > > >Far far better if the clampits at Wilmette actually wrote to FRED > > I don't know about you Dermod, but I tend not to keep writing to people who > refuse to answer my mail. > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 6:48 AM Subject: Re: "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." Despite the slander of many fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, I have been a member of the bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my main bahai page. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. The reason the uhj allows and encourages fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to backbite and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet, and elsewhere may be discovered in the four messages below: To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/UHJ72498.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/uhj12-10-99.htm Open Petition for Baha'i Reformation February 8, 2001 https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/Reformation.htm "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:9jmbbb$2fhd$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > For the sake of non-bahai observers who may happen > along here, I mention that I refuse to waste my time answering > the liars and deceivers among my fellow bahais who are only > distorting the record for Gharidian and other ao hacks to whom > they kowtow.... and who ignore the fact that I NEVER wrote the > nsa to begin with. The deceptions are the familiar ones: change > the subject, deliberately confuse events, etc. > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm > > The ball is in their court. They owe me an explanation of why they > chose to take an innocuous request to be removed from the American > Bahai mailing list and handled it in the way they did. > > Futhermore, they owe an apology to my wife . > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ > > > > "Susan Maneck " wrote in message > news:20010723213626.05128.00001513@ng-fi1.aol.com... > > > > > >Far far better if the clampits at Wilmette actually wrote to FRED > > > > I don't know about you Dermod, but I tend not to keep writing to people > who > > refuse to answer my mail. > > > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no > time > > left to start again . . " > > Don McLean's American Pie > > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 6:07 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing In 1996 my request to the circulation department for the American Bahai, repeated twice and perhaps a third time, read, "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." I had torn off the preprinted address change label regularly published on the back page of the American Bahai and mailed it into the address given for subscription changes. I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be removed from the mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, no threat, etc.... Dermod Ryder's speculation that willingness to receive the American Bahai has become compulsory should give pause.... Again, note well, I used the address on the back of the American Bahai given specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write the nsa, its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the simplest of requests: remove my name and address from your mailing list. Not a word or suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith, nor any criticism of it whatsoever, real nor implied. I conveyed my wishes to the proper address, as announced in the American Bahai itself. That I received a response back from an entirely different address speaks volumes, as they say. After six years, I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. I've scanned the letter so others might read the original. I am not about to accept the slander and backbiting of fanatics and fundamentalists nor allow them to provoke me into one action or another. I prefer the facts: Again, I declared my belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976 and notified the nsa, who sent me back the declaration card available on my homepage. I have never notified them otherwise. They, as distinguished from liars and sycophants online, have never notified me to the contrary. Scanned orignials at https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm The other two letters were related to the Detroit local spiritual assembly and its junk mail. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20010726005503.17865.00002303@ng-md1.aol.com... > > > >Than what do you call this??? > > Dear Warren, > > That quotation which you cited is by 'Abdu'l-Baha not the Universal House of > Justice. Those that are accusing the Universal House of Justice of committing > takfir are doing so because the Master made some statement in the Tablet of the > Thousand Verses saying there was no takfir in the Baha'i Faith. On this basis > they are accusing the House of disobedience to 'Abdu'l-Baha. But obviously, > since 'Abdu'l-Baha Himself wrote that passage from the Will and Testament He > obviously did not mean what some people would like to make Him out as meaning. > > warmest, Susan > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 6:08 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing In 1996 my request to the circulation department for the American Bahai, repeated twice and perhaps a third time, read, "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." I had torn off the preprinted address change label regularly published on the back page of the American Bahai and mailed it into the address given for subscription changes. I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be removed from the mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, no threat, etc.... Dermod Ryder's speculation that willingness to receive the American Bahai has become compulsory should give pause.... Again, note well, I used the address on the back of the American Bahai given specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write the nsa, its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the simplest of requests: remove my name and address from your mailing list. Not a word or suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith, nor any criticism of it whatsoever, real nor implied. I conveyed my wishes to the proper address, as announced in the American Bahai itself. That I received a response back from an entirely different address speaks volumes, as they say. After six years, I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. I've scanned the letter so others might read the original. I am not about to accept the slander and backbiting of fanatics and fundamentalists nor allow them to provoke me into one action or another. I prefer the facts: Again, I declared my belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976 and notified the nsa, who sent me back the declaration card available on my homepage. I have never notified them otherwise. They, as distinguished from liars and sycophants online, have never notified me to the contrary. Scanned orignials at https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm The other two letters were related to the Detroit local spiritual assembly and its junk mail. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20010726003507.17865.00002295@ng-md1.aol.com... > >It is right and proper > >that they write to him telling him he is kaput before telling all and sundry > >about it. > > Dermod, > > They told those who asked. If Fred had asked they would have told him. > > >Methinks > >the cloak of confidentiality only applies to the faux pas > > Whether or not someone is a member of the Baha'i community is not considered > confidential information. > > > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 6:08 AM Subject: Re: "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." In 1996 my request to the circulation department for the American Bahai, repeated twice and perhaps a third time, read, "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." I had torn off the preprinted address change label regularly published on the back page of the American Bahai and mailed it into the address given for subscription changes. I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be removed from the mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, no threat, etc.... Dermod Ryder's speculation that willingness to receive the American Bahai has become compulsory should give pause.... Again, note well, I used the address on the back of the American Bahai given specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write the nsa, its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the simplest of requests: remove my name and address from your mailing list. Not a word or suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith, nor any criticism of it whatsoever, real nor implied. I conveyed my wishes to the proper address, as announced in the American Bahai itself. That I received a response back from an entirely different address speaks volumes, as they say. After six years, I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. I've scanned the letter so others might read the original. I am not about to accept the slander and backbiting of fanatics and fundamentalists nor allow them to provoke me into one action or another. I prefer the facts: Again, I declared my belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976 and notified the nsa, who sent me back the declaration card available on my homepage. I have never notified them otherwise. They, as distinguished from liars and sycophants online, have never notified me to the contrary. Scanned orignials at https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm The other two letters were related to the Detroit local spiritual assembly and its junk mail. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Adelard R" wrote in message news:9jnmej$flst$1@ID-75457.news.dfncis.de... > > "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing" > wrote in message news:9jmbip$2mmv$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > > Despite the slander of many fundamentalists among my > > fellow bahais, I have been a member of the bahai faith since > > 1976. My ID Card may be found on my main bahai page. I have > > never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the > > contrary. > > You are funny Fred! > Adelard > > ---------- From: Yorgos Marinakis[SMTP:Yorgos.Marinakis@bwn.net] Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 5:29 PM To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Re: Motion to Dismiss - Please confirm Fred, The judge gave no reasons in his opinion letter. It must have been First Amendment. If it were on the basis of no jurisdiction, for example, then we would still have a case against the LSA. I think the judge just didn't want anything to do with a case against an Iranian religion. Best regards, Yorgos ----- Original Message ----- From: FG To: Yorgos Marinakis Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 5:26 AM Subject: Motion to Dismiss - Please confirm > Yorgos, > > Any details would be appreciated. > > Fred > > > "Nima Hazini" wrote in message > news:<9jft03$118$1@gnamma.connect.com.au>... > > Just to update everyone on this case. Judge Scott has ruled on the Motion > to > > Dismiss and found for the defendants, i.e. TRUSTEES OF THE SPIRITUAL > > ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í S OF ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, and THE SPIRITUAL > > ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í'S OF ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, a non-profit > > corporation, and the NATIONAL SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í'S OF THE > > UNITED STATES, an Illinois Corporation. The Motion to Dismiss was granted > on > > First Amendment grounds as argued by the attorneys for the defendant in > > Geoffrey Goldberg's summary posted earlier. > > > > cheers, > > Nima > > > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 6:25 AM Subject: Re: HIV / AIDS : Baha'i View https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3b609e1e$1@isis.cybersurf.net... UNITED NATIONS, 28 June 2001 (BWNS) -- The Baha'i International Community has issued the following statement, entitled "HIV/AIDS and Gender Equality: Transforming Attitudes and Behaviors," for the United Nations General Assembly Special Session on HIV/AIDS, which took place at the United Nations in New York 25-27 June 2001: .... details at: https://www.bahaiworldnews.org/story.cfm?STORYID=132 ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 6:28 AM Subject: Re: Baha'i World Faith The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 6:43 AM Subject: Re: UPDATE on Deborah Buchhorn v NSA/LSA Apparently the judge just didn't want anything to do with an Iranian religion, is what I've heard.... Why bother, I guess.... One thing is for sure: there will be other lawsuits, as time goes on.... That this case was filed, revealing all that it does, is in itself a major development for those Bahais concerned about the integrity of Baha'u'llah's Teachings. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:9jft03$118$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > Just to update everyone on this case. Judge Scott has ruled on the Motion to > Dismiss and found for the defendants, i.e. TRUSTEES OF THE SPIRITUAL > ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í S OF ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, and THE SPIRITUAL > ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í'S OF ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, a non-profit > corporation, and the NATIONAL SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í'S OF THE > UNITED STATES, an Illinois Corporation. The Motion to Dismiss was granted on > First Amendment grounds as argued by the attorneys for the defendant in > Geoffrey Goldberg's summary posted earlier. > > cheers, > Nima > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 7:46 AM Subject: Re: Baha'i Growth How many of them know of the oppressions documented on my website? Please forward to them my link and direct them here to talk.religion.bahai so that they may investigate the truth for themselves. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Jon" wrote in message news:da2a2e05.0108020858.2d6a778@posting.google.com... > All, > > In many locations in the USA, the Baha'i Faith is starting to grow > RAPIDLY. My dependable sources tell me that during the past 2 years > ago, a small upper-class town of 8 Baha'is in Massachusetts has > swelled to 30. A neighboring major city in Massachusetts has also > exploded in numbers, activity, and exposure. Everyone in the western > half of the state has heard of the Baha'is. If the Baha'is had a > House of Worship in that state, I would bet you we would have 5000 if > not 10,000 Baha'is in that state alone. 10,000 Baha'is is 0.16% of > the state (6,350,000 tot. population). If we apply the trend of this > state to the whole USA, 0.16% of the USA means 450,000 Baha'is. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 7:55 AM Subject: Re: Bahai - New Mexico Lawsuit - Amicus Curiae https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:Y9h87.64310$JN6.11895531@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > FEDXed to the Second Judicial District County of Bernalillo, State of New > Mexico: > > > July 13, 2001 > > Re: Second Judicial District County of Bernalillo, State of New Mexico, > Deborah Buchhorn, for Herself and for Minority Members of the Spiritual > Assembly of the Bahais of Albuquerque, New Mexico, Plaintiffs, Vs. No. Cv > 2001-01978 Trustees of the Spiritual Assembly of the Bahais of Albuquerque, > New Mexico, and The Spiritual Assembly of the Bahais of Albuquerque, New > Mexico, a Non-profit Corporation, and the National Spiritual Assembly of the > Bahais of > the United States, an Illinois Corporation, Defendants. > > > I > > I request the Court to consider my testimony as amicus curiae on July 18, > 2001, in the Motion to Dismiss Deborah Buchhorn's lawsuit against the Bahai > Local Spirtual Assembly of Albuquerque and the National Spiritual Assembly > of the United States. > > I converted to the Bahai Faith in 1976 and have never withdrawn from it nor > been notified otherwise by the Bahai administration. > > > II > > I, like many Bahais, was and am attracted to the teachings of Baha'u'llah > and Abdu'l-Baha by the progressive and liberal tenor of their writings. > Relevant to Deborah Buchhorn's lawsuit are the almost numberless passages > that are well represented by two brief quotations: > > These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is > sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of > ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the > secrets of the contingent world. Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. > > When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech > prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization > may give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are inevitable. > Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, 197. > > Like many Bahais, the young person I was more than twenty-five years ago > trusted these words indicated how the Bahai Faith itself would conduct its > own affairs. Unfortunately, Deborah Buchhorn's experience, suggested through > the details of her lawsuit, demonstrate the lived reality of everyday Bahai > community life for all too many of its members. > > > III > > The many other victims of fundamentalists among my fellow Bahais include > Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor of Dialogue > magazine Stephen Scholl, its other editors, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors > who resigned in protest over the distortion of many historical facts, David > Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the Department of History of the University > of Michigan, Canadian writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant > to > the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, New Zealander Alison Marshall for > writing a critique of Bahai publishing and censorship, and Australian > Olympic champion Cathy Freeman. > > I urge the Court seeking to understand the Bahai Faith to consider the > experience and views of the Bahais and ex-Bahais mentioned above. Many of > their testimonies may be found on my website, The Bahai Faith & Religious > Freedom of Conscience, which I created in May of 1998 as a means of > documenting the pervasive abuse of the liberty and freedom of conscience > extolled by the Founders of the Bahai Faith. The over 30 megabytes of > information that I have > collected can leave little doubt for a fair-minded person that there are > indeed very serious reasons for concern about the wide discrepancy that > exists between the written and publicly proclaimed aims and goals of the > Bahai Faith and the actual experience of many such Bahais, like Deborah > Buchhorn, with persistent fraud and character assassination. > > Since Bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate > one way in one country and another elsewhere, and because the Internet now > no longer makes it possible with impunity, they have mounted for several > years a concerted campaign of fraud and libel on such sites as AOL, the > Usenet newsgroups soc.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai, > alt.religion.bahai, www.beliefnet.com, many email lists, and elsewhere to > discredit and malign > independent and diverse voices. Again, the details of Deborah Buchhorn's > allegations merely read like more of the same old story. > > IV > > Far from the Court dismissing Deborah Buchhorn's lawsuit, it is the ardent > wish of this Bahai, and I know of many Bahais and non-Bahais, that justice > receive a hearing. While her allegations may surprise the inexperienced and > uniformed about the Bahai Faith, every single detail of Ms. Buchhorn's > lawsuit reads like old news to me, and I'm sure many other Bahais. In my > opinion nothing she alleges hasn't already happened many, many times to > other > Americans, and Bahais elsewhere in the world, and has been documented > repeatedly. What is unusual in her case is that she and her attorney Yorgos > Marinakis have the stamina, courage, and strength of character to withstand > the ferocious onslaught of fraud and libel so routinely meted out by the > most fanatical and intolerant elements of the Bahai administration. > > I appeal to the Court to grant Deborah Buchhorn a just and full hearing. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 8:00 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing See also the following: https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:tm2j62reibem0b@corp.supernews.com... > In addition to below, be sure to see FULL TEXT: > New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuit.htm > > > Despite the slander of many fundamentalists among my > fellow bahais, I have been a member of the bahai faith since > 1976. My ID Card may be found on my main bahai page. I have > never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the > contrary. > > The reason the uhj allows and encourages fundamentalists > among my fellow bahais to backbite and slander me > on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet, > and elsewhere may be discovered in the four messages below: > > To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/To-UHJ1.htm > > To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/UHJ72498.htm > > To uhj 12-10-1999 > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/uhj12-10-99.htm > > Open Petition for Baha'i Reformation February 8, 2001 > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/Reformation.htm > > My Request Not to Receive the American Bahai 1996 > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/index.htm > > > > ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 1:07 PM To: nthyorgos@hotmail.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Re: Motion to Dismiss - Please confirm Yorgos, Sorry to be slow to answer. I'd appreciate receiving a copy of the judge's decision. Has Deborah decided not to appeal or pursue the case further? Thanks. -- Frederick Glaysher 668 Bolinger Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 >From: "Yorgos" >To: "Frederick Glaysher" >Subject: Re: Motion to Dismiss - Please confirm >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 20:28:29 -0600 > >Fred, > >I'l mail a copy to you if you give me your address. There's nothing in >there, other than "defendant's motions are well taken." Actually that's >that >main reason why I think he was simply afraid of the case. BTW, I'm >cancelling my bwn.net email address, so please use the hotmail address. > >Best regards, > >Yorgos _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at https://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 6:19 AM Subject: Re: A Seeker's Guide to Baha'i-related newsgroups and discussion sites (UPDATED) The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI: Robert J. Pease, December 5, 1998: "I support your efforts to expose SRB as a fundamentalist group." https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb84.htm Ron House: "I think the following is a clear case of malicious rejection of an article by the worst of the moderators of soc.religion.bahai." https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb53.htm Timothy Mulligan: "(Sigh) Fred, I'm beginning to think you're right about those SRB moderators." https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb59.htm RobertNik: "these guys are pompous arseholes IMHO." https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb54.htm Bruce Burrill: "What are Baha'i afraid of?" https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb60.htm Zuteflute: "Frankly I could not see anything in the letter I wrote which would prompt someone to ask whether or not I am a Baha'i." https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb50.htm YU ZIR: "But as an outsider, I can perhaps see the point Fred Glaysher is making, and which point none of SRB's defenders seem to address." https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb46.htm Matthew Cromer: "The current moderators regulate the contents--posting articles which they agree with...." https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb47.htm Kavosh Soltani, December 9, 1998:"So many Bahais on these forumshave shown to be ready to forget logic and reason, ignore clear evidence and Word of God, and come up with exactly the same line of tired and inaccurate excuses and arguments to justify their position, that it can not be a simple coincidence."https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb77.htm Shakti3, December 4, 1998: "Sorry to hear that you've been surpressed on srb. Your comments were alway very "right on." Altho it does not surprise me one bit, seeing the way these newsgroups operate." https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/Ex7.htm Harold Shinsato: "It seems like there is an oppression over the Baha'i Faith." https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb33.htm Steve Tomljenovic, December 3, 1998: "The moderators are a bit overzealous at times. Since all the controversy started, it has gotten worse." https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb79.htm Laeterna: "To say I was flabberghasted at this type of "moderating" was putting it mildly indeed." https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/censored2.htm Robin Peters: "I think you're to be commended for your persistence in the face of consistent censorship." https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb43.htm jgoldberg: "I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. " https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb57.htm Ruletherod, November 17, 1998: "Too much damage has already been done in the name and to the name of Baha'u'llah by right-wing administrative bullies, linear-thinking apologists, and doctrinaire-fundamentalists. You can't just blame it all on the critics." https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb76.htm Many other similar messages may be found on my web site under soc.religion.bahai censorship. https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb.htm The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/index.htm "Roger Reini" wrote in message news:o2BtO8WPa7VlzLaBJYpEK9l1aelw@4ax.com... > A Seeker's Guide to Bahá'í Newsgroups and Web-Based Discussion Groups > (One person's view) > > Composed by Roger Reini (roger@rreini.com) > Last revised August 5, 2001 > > This document will be posted on a periodic basis (bi-weekly or > monthly) to alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai. > > NOTES: > > 1. The following document reflects the opinion of the author only > and should not be taken as an authoritative position of the Bahá'í > Faith or any of its Institutions. > 2. This document does not cover newsgroups in other languages or > hierarchies that are devoted to the Faith, such as > it.cultura.religioni.bahai. > > MODIFICATIONS: > > August 5, 2001: Added comments about some benefits of unmoderated > groups and about the use of filters in newsreaders > May 29, 2001: Added more comments about Beliefnet > May 18, 2001: Added this modifications section, section on web-based > groups > May 14, 2001: Added statement about newsgroups in other languages not > being covered > > You, the seeker, are reading this document because: > > a) you have heard about the Bahá'í Faith and want to learn about > it, and > b) you are trying to learn what Usenet resources are devoted to > discussing the Faith. > > There are currently three English-language newsgroups devoted to > discussions about the Bahá'í Faith: > · soc.religion.bahai > · alt.religion.bahai > · talk.religion.bahai > > All three newsgroups are open to Bahá'ís and non-Bahá'ís. > > > > soc.religion.bahai > > Of the three newsgroups devoted to the Bahá'í Faith, > soc.religion.bahai (SRB) is by far the oldest. It was created in the > early 1990's. Its purpose, according to the FAQ, is "act as a > non-threatening forum for discussing and sharing information about the > tenets, history, and texts of the Bahá'í Faith." Both Bahá'ís and > non-Bahá'ís are welcome to post to the newsgroup. > > SRB is a moderated newsgroup. A team of moderators reviews every > submission for its appropriateness to the discussion and for its > exemplifying the standards of Bahá'í consultation (basically, in this > context, following accepted netiquette procedures; the FAQ goes into > more detail). This moderation filters out off-topic discussions and > keeps on-topic discussions civil and smooth. Posts are not moderated > for on-topic content, with one exception: "Posts which argue for or > promote a succession of authority outside the Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh > will not be posted" (quoting from the FAQ). This is to avoid engaging > in discussions with Covenant breakers or their followers (more on > Covenant breaking later). > > The official FAQ for SRB is located at > https://www.bcca.org/services/srb/welcome.html. > > alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai > > These newsgroups are younger, having been created in April 1997 and > February 1999, respectively. They were created because the main > proponent of talk.religion.bahai, frustrated with having his posts > rejected by the SRB moderators, wanted to create an unmoderated forum > for discussing the Bahá'í Faith. Alt.religion.bahai (ARB) was created > in response to the first attempt to create talk.religion.bahai (TRB), > which ended in failure. On the third attempt, TRB passed. > > Unlike SRB, alt.religion.bahai (ARB) and talk.religion.bahai (TRB) are > unmoderated. Anyone can freely post to them on any topic he/she > wishes, though netiquette calls for posts to be related to the Bahá'í > Faith. As a result, these newsgroups give the appearance of "anything > goes." The discussions tend to be coarser than discussions on SRB; > few posts reflect the true standards of Bahá'í consultation. As a > result, many Bahá'ís stay away from these groups. The newsgroups are > not totally without merit; it is possible for reasonable discussions > to take place on them. Admittedly, such discussions might be > difficult to find amidst the general noise in the groups. The > newsgroups' unmoderated status allows for the thread of the > conversations to encompass related side issues, something that is > generally not allowed by the moderators of soc.religion.bahai. On > SRB, posts that get too far off-topic are returned. > > Many of the posts to these newsgroups are from individuals who are > opposed to the Bahá'í Faith or certain aspects of it. Some are from > individuals from other religious traditions (Christian, Muslim, > Buddhist, etc.) and attempt to refute the teachings of the Faith. > Some are from former Bahá'ís who object to certain teachings of the > Faith or certain actions of Bahá'í administrative bodies. Some are > from individuals who have been declared "Covenant Breakers" by the > Universal House of Justice, or are from followers of such individuals. > > Covenant breaking involves challenging the lawfully established > authority of the Bahá'í Faith. Bahá'u'lláh, the Founder of the Bahá'í > Faith, established several institutions that govern the affairs of the > Bahá'í community. At His passing (or His ascension, as Bahá'ís refer > to it), He conferred ultimate authority for the Faith to His eldest > son, 'Abdu'l-Bahá, saying that all were to turn to Him. Similarly, > 'Abdu'l-Bahá passed this authority to His eldest grandson, Shoghi > Effendi, who became the first Guardian of the Bahá'í Faith. Now > Shoghi Effendi was unable to name a successor to himself as Guardian, > for he had no children and all other male descendents of Bahá'u'lláh > had been declared Covenant breakers. So when he passed on, there was > no successor. Some of the responsibilities of the Guardian, in his > capacity as Head of the Faith, were assumed by the Universal House of > Justice, which had been established by Bahá'u'lláh but not elected > until 1963. Other aspects of the Guardian's authority could not be > assumed by the House, so they are no longer exercised. Rebelling > against the Head of the Faith, at any time, is treated as though one > is rebelling against God. For the protection of the community, those > rebels are expelled from the Faith. Believers are warned not to > become involved with them in any way; that includes directly > responding to them in discussion groups. They are also counseled to > avoid discussions that begin with words and end with words (i.e., > serve no real purpose) or discussions that are undignified. > > Some newsreader programs allow the user to set up filters that block > posts from a particular individual or on a particular subject. One > could use filters to block the posts of known or suspected Covenant > breakers from appearing. The messages themselves are not deleted from > the server; they are merely blocked from appearing on the user's > screen. > > Note that there is a distinction between those who have been expelled > from the Faith for breaking the Covenant and those who have left the > Faith because they did not believe in Bahá'u'lláh and His teachings. > > In the opinion of this writer, it is not true that the majority of the > messages on ARB and TRB are posted by Covenant breakers or their > followers. > > Web-based discussion groups > > There are a number of Web-based discussion groups devoted to the > Bahá'í Faith. As of May 18, 2001, this writer has had significant > experience with only one, the Bahá'í areas on Beliefnet > (www.beliefnet.com). > > Beliefnet - Beliefnet is a site devoted to religion in general, with > services and discussion groups for nearly all faiths. It is not > operated by Bahá'ís. There are several groups within the Bahá'í area, > including the main group, intended for Bahá'ís to fellowship and > discuss amongst themselves; side groups on marriage and community > life, learning about the Faith, etc.; and lastly, a challenge and > critique group, where individuals can challenge the teachings of the > Faith, albeit in a respectful way. These groups are for the most part > unmoderated, though Beliefnet staffers reserve the right to move > threads to more appropriate groups within the Bahá'í area. > > One weakness of an unmoderated Web-based discussion group is the > inability to blank out or ignore objectionable postings, such as those > from Covenant breakers. In the opinion of this writer, this weakness > is a significant flaw, as good Usenet readers allow one to filter out > objectionable postings or authors. By being effectively compelled to > read them, no matter how hard one may try to avoid them, one is > putting his or her spiritual health at risk, according to this > writer's understanding of the Bahá'í teachings. A moderated group > would not have this problem; such posts would never get past the > moderators. > > Advice to the seeker > > This FAQ is subtitled "One person's view," and in the view of the > author, seekers wanting to learn about the Bahá'í Faith via Usenet > newsgroups should stick to soc.religion.bahai, at least initially. > He/she will learn about the Faith initially from a Bahá'í perspective > rather than from the perspective of opponents of the Faith. Later on, > if he/she has a strong stomach, the seeker could decide to monitor ARB > and TRB, keeping in mind that it will not reflect the high standards > of the Faith. > > If one decides to participate in discussions on ARB and TRB, he/she > should be aware that some participants like to crosspost their > postings to several unrelated newsgroups, causing the readers of those > other newsgroups to become irritated. When replying, make sure that > the responses go only to ARB and TRB. Use a newsreader that supports > filters so that one can filter out obnoxious posters or Covenant > breakers. > > Regarding Beliefnet, some of the Bahá'í-related groups are more > appropriate for the seeker than others. One example of a group for > seekers is the "Learn about Bahá'í" group. The "Challenge and > Critique" group is not a seeker-friendly group, in the opinion of this > writer. > > > Roger (roger@rreini.com) > https://www.rreini.com/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 6:22 AM Subject: Re: A Seeker's Guide to Baha'i-related newsgroups and discussion sites (UPDATED) If newcomers to talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai desire not to be deceived, it will require more than a passing glance at a few messages. I suggest you begin with the links below which provide a historical survey of the last several years of bahai censorship and then visit further my and Professor Cole's websites. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Bahai Technique ---- Essential Reading https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations Documenting Censorship https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb-bq.htm alt.religion.bahai & talk.religion.bahai FAQ https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/FAQ.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/UHJ72498.htm To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/To-UHJ1.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, surveys the many incidents of bahai censorship that have taken place during the last few decades in "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuit.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm ---------- From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 8:20 AM To: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Are you going to suppress Summary Hearing? <> ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 7:46 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing The non-bahai observer should note well that my account of events is accurate as described at https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm The onus to contact me resides with the nsa if they have unilaterally changed my status without my request or consent. No such claim appears on the back of my bahai identification card. Further, the non-bahai, and indeed bahai, should consider carefully that the real purpose of the continual harassment regarding my membership in the bahai faith is to strike fear into the heart of anyone else who would dare speak his or her mind, a right guaranteed by Abdu'l-Baha, effectively silencing others. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 6:02 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing As far as I'm concerned, you and bahais like you are liars, including your fraudulent correspondence. The onus lies with the nsa to contact me should they ever unilaterally change my status without my request. - In 1996 my request to the circulation department for the American Bahai, repeated twice and perhaps a third time, read, "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." I had torn off the preprinted address change label regularly published on the back page of the American Bahai and mailed it into the address given for subscription changes. I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be removed from the mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, no threat, etc.... Dermod Ryder's speculation that willingness to receive the American Bahai has become compulsory should give pause.... Again, note well, I used the address on the back of the American Bahai given specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write the nsa, its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the simplest of requests: remove my name and address from your mailing list. Not a word or suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith, nor any criticism of it whatsoever, real nor implied. I conveyed my wishes to the proper address, as announced in the American Bahai itself. That I received a response back from an entirely different address speaks volumes, as they say. After six years, I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. I've scanned the letter so others might read the original. I am not about to accept the slander and backbiting of fanatics and fundamentalists nor allow them to provoke me into one action or another. I prefer the facts: Again, I declared my belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976 and notified the nsa, who sent me back the declaration card available on my homepage. I have never notified them otherwise. They, as distinguished from liars and sycophants online, have never notified me to the contrary. Scanned orignials at https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm The other two letters were related to the Detroit local spiritual assembly and its junk mail. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0108101041.6007b967@posting.google.com... > Fred, > > You said: > > "... the real purpose of the continual harassment regarding my > membership in the bahai faith is to strike fear into the heart of > anyone else who would dare speak his or her mind ..." > > Not at all. Everyone - Baha'i or not - has the right to express > themselves. > > However, you have been told time and again that your membership card > is not valid. I have shown you correspondence that backs that up. > There is no reason the NSA must contact you to make your membership > card invalid. They have removed you from the rolls and no amount of > protestation on your part will change that fact. > > You can no longer claim to be a Baha'i in good standing without lying. > If you want to be a Baha'i in good standing I suggest you contact > National. Until you clear it up with them you are not a member of the > Baha'i Faith and have not been since February 1999. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 6:23 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Dave wrote: Oh and one last fact - on the back of the card it clearly states, "This card is property of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States with whom rests final decision as to its validity." -- In terms of assessing Dave's credibility, non-bahai observers should also note that that claim above is a lie. Again, no such statement appears on the back of my official bahai ID card, mailed to me by the nsa in 1976. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:9l3382$6disf$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > As far as I'm concerned, you and bahais like you are liars, including > your fraudulent correspondence. The onus lies with the nsa to > contact me should they ever unilaterally change my status without > my request. > > - > > In 1996 my request to the circulation department for the American Bahai, > repeated twice and perhaps a third time, read, "Please remove my name and > address from your mailing list." I had torn off the preprinted address > change label regularly published on the back page of the American Bahai and > mailed it into the address given for subscription changes. > > I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be removed from the > mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, no threat, etc.... > Dermod Ryder's speculation that willingness to receive the American Bahai > has become compulsory should give pause.... > > Again, note well, I used the address on the back of the American Bahai given > specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write the nsa, > its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the simplest of > requests: remove my name and address from your mailing list. Not a word or > suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith, nor any criticism of it > whatsoever, real nor implied. I conveyed my wishes to the proper address, as > announced in the American Bahai itself. That I received a response back from > an entirely different address speaks volumes, as they say. After six years, > I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. I've scanned the > letter so others might read the original. > > I am not about to accept the slander and backbiting of fanatics and > fundamentalists nor allow them to provoke me into one action or another. I > prefer the facts: Again, I declared my belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976 and > notified the nsa, who sent me back the declaration card available on my > homepage. I have never notified them otherwise. They, as distinguished from > liars and sycophants online, have never notified me to the contrary. Scanned > orignials at https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm > > The other two letters were related to the Detroit local spiritual assembly > and its junk mail. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ > > > > > "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message > news:f0853486.0108101041.6007b967@posting.google.com... > > Fred, > > > > You said: > > > > "... the real purpose of the continual harassment regarding my > > membership in the bahai faith is to strike fear into the heart of > > anyone else who would dare speak his or her mind ..." > > > > Not at all. Everyone - Baha'i or not - has the right to express > > themselves. > > > > However, you have been told time and again that your membership card > > is not valid. I have shown you correspondence that backs that up. > > There is no reason the NSA must contact you to make your membership > > card invalid. They have removed you from the rolls and no amount of > > protestation on your part will change that fact. > > > > You can no longer claim to be a Baha'i in good standing without lying. > > If you want to be a Baha'i in good standing I suggest you contact > > National. Until you clear it up with them you are not a member of the > > Baha'i Faith and have not been since February 1999. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Dave > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 6:50 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing FACT - For over 2 years Dave has LIED about my bahai id card: > Dave wrote: > Oh and one last fact - on the back of the card it clearly states, "This card > is property of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United > States with whom rests final decision as to its validity." No such statement appears on my id card. The onus resides with the nsa, not liars and hacks, to inform me should they ever change my bahai status, a change I've never requested. Should any of the allegations made here by fundamentalists be true, the non-bahai observer might want to reflect carefully on how far the extremists in the administration have drifted from the Teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha. Further details at https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Roger Reini" wrote in message news:3B756738.34B4C1C8@rreini.com... > > > BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing wrote: > > > > Dave wrote: > > Oh and one last fact - on the back of the card it clearly states, "This card > > is property of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United > > States with whom rests final decision as to its validity." > > > > -- > > > > In terms of assessing Dave's credibility, non-bahai observers should also > > note that that claim above is a lie. Again, no such statement appears on the > > back of my official bahai ID card, mailed to me by the nsa in 1976. > > However, it DOES appear on my ID card, which dates from 1994. I do not > know if it appeared on cards back in 1976; I invite longtime Baha'is to > comment on this. Fred's card, from the front, appears identical to > mine. One may surmise the backs would be identical, but I will grant > this is not necessarily so. > > Roger (roger@rreini.com) ---------- From: Deborah Buchhorn[SMTP:debbuch@flash.net] Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 9:22 PM To: Fred Glaysher Subject: Re: Buchhorn vs LSA/NSA Fred Glaysher wrote: > > Dear Ms. Deborah Buchhorn, > > I hope you don't mind my emailing you. I'm just curious, > as I'm sure others are too, whether you might further > pursue the issues recounted in your lawsuit. I for one do > not believe the judge's dismissal exonerates the institutions. > > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > -- > > You know Fred, at this point I think it would be best if you corresponded > with Deborah directly. She's at debbuch@flash.net > > Best regards, > > Yorgos > > >From: "Frederick Glaysher" > >To: nthyorgos@hotmail.com > >CC: FG@home.com > >Subject: Re: Motion to Dismiss - Please confirm > >Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 13:07:57 > > > > > >Yorgos, > > > >Sorry to be slow to answer. I'd appreciate > >receiving a copy of the judge's decision. > > > >Has Deborah decided not to appeal or pursue > >the case further? > > > >Thanks. > > > >-- > >Frederick Glaysher > >668 Bolinger > >Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 > > > > > >>From: "Yorgos" > >>To: "Frederick Glaysher" > >>Subject: Re: Motion to Dismiss - Please confirm > >>Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 20:28:29 -0600 > >> > >>Fred, > >> > >>I'l mail a copy to you if you give me your address. There's > >>nothing in > >>there, other than "defendant's motions are well taken." Actually > >>that's that > >>main reason why I think he was simply afraid of the case. BTW, > >>I'm > >>cancelling my bwn.net email address, so please use the hotmail > >>address. > >> > >>Best regards, > >> > >>Yorgos Dear Mr. Glaysher, No, I don't mind at all your contacting me. I will tell you the straight truth although some of it might hurt my lawyer's feelings and I wouldn't want that. The fact is we lost the oral arguments. My lawyer simply did not argue well. Not only that but Ms. Kennedy brought up my lawsuit where I state that I was removed from the Gospel Choir, and that I was directed to get deepening in the covenant. The point in my lawsuit was due process and the trustee's obligation of a reasonable inquiry into a matter. I never did anything to anyone, said anything to anyone, was never asked a single question, nor ever told why this happened. That was the point. Also, I really don't need instruction in the Covenant. I can recite the biblical ones as well as the Greater and Lesser one of the Baha'i Faith, the point was, if I needed instruction on the Covenant, why didn't I receive it in the alleged class that was set up for me instead of a 3 hour interrogation. Is that what they call instruction in the Covenant? Anyway, my lawyer didn't argue these things, he very arrogantly said, we have no further comments your honor as if it were cut and dried. It apparently wasn't. The real situation here Fred is that I was out-prayed. Mrs. Kavelin who serves on this Assembly went to Haifa for the dedication and had all the members of the House if not the House itself, praying. She told me first hand that she was at all the thresholds. When this happens, God may give you what you want, according to Abdu'l Baha', but it will be worse. Let me clue you in. I was at last allowed to see the books of this Assembly after a l0 month wait. They are very cooked, very fraudulent, and very incriminating. I was left alone with them and took what I needed to prove some very, very, very, illegal behavior. I have written to the NSA and told them that in their Feb 23, letter they say the are giving my "volumious materials" due consideration and to rest assured that I will be hearing from them". I filed the suit anyway because they had already had a lot of my "voluminous materials" for 6 years and the last packet for 2 and a half years. Anyway, I reminded them that just because the lawsuit was not heard for lst amendment issues, didn't mean anything was changed as far as the allegations were concerned. They were still true. The court did not dismiss the allegations. They granted a motion to dismiss on the first amendment right of a religion to abuse it's members by virtue of free association or rather, I agreed to it. That's why I was suing for corporate duties. I should have won. Like I said. Things got twisted......my lawyer did not argue well. I was out-prayed. Since things will now be worse. I will be taking my evidence of fraud in the books and elsewhere to the Attorney General of the State and let the people of New Mexico handle the frauds. I'm sorry....but I am bound by law and the Baha'i Writings to obey the law and the law says if I know about Fraud, I have to report it. I can also prove it and I will. I hope this brings you some sense of hope that there is still a lot that can and will be done to correct what both you and I perceive as serious problems in the Administrative Order. I cannot in good concience teach this Faith anymore, and I have been one of the strongest teachers. I don't know if you know it but I have traveled 3 continents with the Voices of Baha Choir along with everything else that is stated in my lawsuit. That's really the reason I was removed from the local Gospel Choir, which 6 months later didn't exist and still doesn't to this day. When you listen to the Baha'i World Congress Films....that really high voice is mine. The problem is I have been accused of being "out of unity" with my Local Spiritual Assembly, and I am, that's because I'm in unity with the higher institutions and my Assembly isn't. I would have to do a psycotic split to be in unity with both. I understand how you feel. I feel the same way. I got a word of encouragement recently. My friend Sue Emmel in Rochester NY called me and told me that Rebequa Murphy the Continental Councellor came to Rochester and gave a talk this week, in the body of that talk Sue said, "you would have thought it was you or me up there speaking" she couldn't believe it. Rebequa Murphy said "these Local Spiritual Assemblies will answer to God for what they are doing". Is this a sign of some kind of shift? I hope so. But it isn't enough to make me back off. My Assembly had the audacity to publish in cheerful tones as headlines in the Newsletter. "all allegations against the Spiritual Assembly were dismissed!" What a blatantly false statement. I emailed the newsletter and demanded a retraction......that is if they are interested in the truth. They are really on the spot. If they don't it proves who they are and that they don't care about the truth. Also, the principle of the "independant investigation of truth" is printed on the cover of every newsletter. I brought this to their attention and told them to encourage the believers to investigate the lawsuit as it was a "sworn", "verified" suit that I was prepared to take into a court of law and prove. I got an email from the Assembly saying these emails to the newsletter had been forwarded and the Assembly was taking them under advisement. If they don't retract. They will be reading the truth of themselves in the Albuquerque Journal. Thanks for entering the suit Fred. Your Amicus was very good. I think the judge was lazy and relied on the oral arguments which were twisted and not set straight by my side. I wouldn't want to hurt my lawyers feelings so please be judicious about that. He is a young man and he just blew it. I have not told him that this is my observation, I wouldn't want him to learn it elsewhere, but I thought you deserved a real explanation. Contact me anytime, Sincerely, Deborah Buchhorn ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 6:37 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing You're a liar. You've lied for two to three years claiming a statement is on the back of my bahai id card which is not there. You're lying about my status as well. That other fanatic fundamentalists among my fellow bahais lie in order to support your lies proves nothing. I am a bahai in PERFECTLY good standing. I repeat, further, the non-bahai, and indeed bahai, should consider carefully that the real purpose of the continual harassment regarding my membership in the bahai faith is to strike fear into the heart of anyone else who would dare speak his or her mind, a right guaranteed by Abdu'l-Baha, effectively silencing others. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0108130548.530690bf@posting.google.com... > "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:<9l3382$6disf$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de>... > > As far as I'm concerned, you and bahais like you are liars, including > > your fraudulent correspondence. The onus lies with the nsa to > > contact me should they ever unilaterally change my status without > > my request. > > > Fred, > > I have never lied about my inquiry into your membership status. I did > not lie about the statement on the back of the ID card. Anyone can > contact Membership services of the US NSA with your name and Baha'i > ID# and confirm exactly what I have confirmed. > > You were removed from the rolls in February 1999. No lie. If you think > that it was an error just call them and have it corrected. > > I have never lied about your membership status. I have no reason to. I > do not want you silenced. In fact I find your website quite helpful. I > want you to say whatever you believe. > > But this membership issue is now settled. The US Natinal Membership > services has in its records that you were removed from the membership > rolls in February of 1999. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 10:18 AM Subject: Apology to Dave Fioritio - My mistake - Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing I've just become aware that my memory failed me in this regard. The statement Mr. Fioritio claims is on the back of my id card is indeed there, which still changes nothing in my opinion. I have to run now but will discuss this more later. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:9lb2dl$8d39n$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > You're a liar. You've lied for two to three years claiming > a statement is on the back of my bahai id card which is > not there. You're lying about my status as well. That other > fanatic fundamentalists among my fellow bahais lie in order > to support your lies proves nothing. I am a bahai in PERFECTLY > good standing. > > I repeat, further, the non-bahai, and indeed bahai, should consider > carefully that the real purpose of the continual harassment regarding > my membership in the bahai faith is to strike fear into the heart of > anyone else who would dare speak his or her mind, a right > guaranteed by Abdu'l-Baha, effectively silencing others. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ > > > "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message > news:f0853486.0108130548.530690bf@posting.google.com... > > "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing" > wrote in message news:<9l3382$6disf$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de>... > > > As far as I'm concerned, you and bahais like you are liars, including > > > your fraudulent correspondence. The onus lies with the nsa to > > > contact me should they ever unilaterally change my status without > > > my request. > > > > > > Fred, > > > > I have never lied about my inquiry into your membership status. I did > > not lie about the statement on the back of the ID card. Anyone can > > contact Membership services of the US NSA with your name and Baha'i > > ID# and confirm exactly what I have confirmed. > > > > You were removed from the rolls in February 1999. No lie. If you think > > that it was an error just call them and have it corrected. > > > > I have never lied about your membership status. I have no reason to. I > > do not want you silenced. In fact I find your website quite helpful. I > > want you to say whatever you believe. > > > > But this membership issue is now settled. The US Natinal Membership > > services has in its records that you were removed from the membership > > rolls in February of 1999. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Dave > > ---------- From: Glayshf[SMTP:glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 10:20 AM To: FG@home.com Subject: Re: "Please remove my name from your mailing list." I've just become aware that my memory failed me in this regard. The statement Mr. Fioritio claims is on the back of my id card is indeed there, which still changes nothing in my opinion. I have to run now but will discuss this more later. fglaysher Subject: Re: "Please remove my name from your mailing list." Date: 8/13/2001 7:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: Glayshf Message-id: <20010813075807.00757.00003661@mb-mq.aol.com> FACT - For over 2 years Dave has LIED about my bahai id card: > Dave wrote: > Oh and one last fact - on the back of the card it clearly states, "This card > is property of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United > States with whom rests final decision as to its validity." No such statement appears on my id card. The onus resides with the nsa, not liars and hacks, to inform me should they ever change my bahai status, a change I've never requested. Should any of the allegations made here by fundamentalists be true, the non-bahai observer might want to reflect carefully on how far the extremists in the administration have drifted from the Teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha. Further details at https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 7:15 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing "Came clean" has a derogatory nuance that lacks your gentlemanly attitude on Beliefnet. It presupposes or suggests that I was not "clean" and lied about the back of my bahai ID card when in fact I threw it in a draw and haven't been able to find it for two or three years. Happening upon it the other day, allowed me to check my memory, which I've honestly admitted was flawed, extending a gentlemanly apology to you. Said fact changes nothing, however, in my opinion. The nsa equally owes me an apology for its insulting letter: https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm Further, if it has changed my status, it owes me the courtesy not to slander and backbite me, encouraging other bahais to do so, but to inform me about it. The onus lies with them not me, the victim, if so, of such calumny and tyranny. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0108140738.6d5884ac@posting.google.com... > On Beliefnet Fred came clean and apologized to me - he found that the > statement was on the back of his card. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 8:38 AM To: debbuch@flash.net Subject: Re: Buchhorn vs LSA/NSA Dear Ms. Buchhorn, Thanks for sharing so much with me about your experience in and out of court. I spoke with Yorgos over the phone once and understand your comments. I'm sure he meant well and thought the judge would be reasonable about the obvious facts. My being 47, he struck me as perhaps a little too young and enthusiastic. Having been a Bahai over twenty-five years, I've had a lot of sobering experience with the realities you too have encountered. I have a request. I understand your discretion regarding your lawyer. I've edited everything along those lines out of your message to me using ellipses and brackets and added paragraphs just to help the reader a little. Would you mind if I shared this copy below online with others? I believe it would help many people understand how serious matters stand in the Faith today. If you want to make any other changes to it just let me know. Best wishes, Frederick Glaysher 668 Bolinger Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 USA 248-651-3380 www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ -- Dear Mr. Glaysher, No, I don't mind at all your contacting me. . . . Ms. Kennedy brought up my lawsuit where I state that I was removed from the Gospel Choir, and that I was directed to get deepening in the covenant. The point in my lawsuit was due process and the trustee's obligation of a reasonable inquiry into a matter. I never did anything to anyone, said anything to anyone, was never asked a single question, nor ever told why this happened. That was the point. Also, I really don't need instruction in the Covenant. I can recite the biblical ones as well as the Greater and Lesser one of the Baha'i Faith, the point was, if I needed instruction on the Covenant, why didn't I receive it in the alleged class that was set up for me instead of a 3 hour interrogation. Is that what they call instruction in the Covenant? . . . The real situation here Fred is that I was out-prayed. Mrs. Kavelin who serves on this Assembly went to Haifa for the dedication and had all the members of the House if not the House itself, praying. She told me first hand that she was at all the thresholds. When this happens, God may give you what you want, according to Abdu'l Baha', but it will be worse. Let me clue you in. I was at last allowed to see the books of this Assembly after a l0 month wait. They are very cooked, very fraudulent, and very incriminating. I was left alone with them and took what I needed to prove some very, very, very, illegal behavior. I have written to the NSA and told them that in their Feb 23 letter they say they are giving my "volumious materials" due consideration and to rest assured that I will be hearing from them". I filed the suit anyway because they had already had a lot of my "voluminous materials" for 6 years and the last packet for 2 and a half years. Anyway, I reminded them that just because the lawsuit was not heard for lst amendment issues, didn't mean anything was changed as far as the allegations were concerned. They were still true. The court did not dismiss the allegations. They granted a motion to dismiss on the first amendment right of a religion to abuse it's members by virtue of free association or rather, I agreed to it. That's why I was suing for corporate duties. I should have won. Like I said. Things got twisted. . . . I was out-prayed. Since things will now be worse, I will be taking my evidence of fraud in the books and elsewhere to the Attorney General of the State and let the people of New Mexico handle the frauds. I'm sorry....but I am bound by law and the Baha'i Writings to obey the law and the law says if I know about Fraud, I have to report it. I can also prove it and I will. I hope this brings you some sense of hope that there is still a lot that can and will be done to correct what both you and I perceive as serious problems in the Administrative Order. I cannot in good conscience teach this Faith anymore, and I have been one of the strongest teachers. I don't know if you know it but I have traveled 3 continents with the Voices of Baha Choir along with everything else that is stated in my lawsuit. That's really the reason I was removed from the local Gospel Choir, which 6 months later didn't exist and still doesn't to this day. When you listen to the Baha'i World Congress Films . . . that really high voice is mine. The problem is I have been accused of being "out of unity" with my Local Spiritual Assembly, and I am, that's because I'm in unity with the higher institutions and my Assembly isn't. I would have to do a psycotic split to be in unity with both. I understand how you feel. I feel the same way. I got a word of encouragement recently. My friend [name deleted] in [location deleted] called me and told me that [name deleted] the Continental Councellor came to [location deleted] and gave a talk this week, in the body of that talk [name deleted] said, "you would have thought it was you or me up there speaking" she couldn't believe it. [name deleted] said "these Local Spiritual Assemblies will answer to God for what they are doing". Is this a sign of some kind of shift? I hope so. But it isn't enough to make me back off. My Assembly had the audacity to publish in cheerful tones as headlines in the Newsletter. "all allegations against the Spiritual Assembly were dismissed!" What a blatantly false statement. I emailed the newsletter and demanded a retraction . . . that is if they are interested in the truth. They are really on the spot. If they don't it proves who they are and that they don't care about the truth. Also, the principle of the "independant investigation of truth" is printed on the cover of every newsletter. I brought this to their attention and told them to encourage the believers to investigate the lawsuit as it was a "sworn", "verified" suit that I was prepared to take into a court of law and prove. I got an email from the Assembly saying these emails to the newsletter had been forwarded and the Assembly was taking them under advisement. If they don't retract, they will be reading the truth of themselves in the Albuquerque Journal. Thanks for entering the suit Fred. Your Amicus was very good. I think the judge was lazy and relied on the oral arguments which were twisted . . . I thought you deserved a real explanation. Contact me anytime, Sincerely, Deborah Buchhorn ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 8:54 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing "NightShadow" wrote in message news:3b7bcc7a.23487797@news... >Obviously he still WANTS to be a Baha'i in good standing. Correction: I AM a Baha'i in Perfectly Good Standing. The bahai administration has NEVER notified me to the contrary, regardless of how often fundamentalists slander and backbite me. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 5:37 PM To: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Re: Motion to Dismiss - Please confirm <> -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA >From: "Yorgos Marinakis" >Reply-To: Yorgos.Marinakis@abanet.org >To: FG@hotmail.com >Subject: Re: Motion to Dismiss - Please confirm >Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 12:45:14 -0600 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Originating-IP: [129.24.128.87] >Received: from 129.24.128.87 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP;Thu, >09 Aug 2001 18:45:14 GMT > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at https://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 5:37 PM To: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Re: Motion to Dismiss - Please confirm -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA >From: "Yorgos" >To: "Frederick Glaysher" >Subject: Re: Motion to Dismiss - Please confirm >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 20:28:29 -0600 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Originating-IP: [63.38.49.231] >Message-ID: <20010731031100.3b6621c41c4bc@hotmail.com> >References: ><003701c0e46e$b0833c20$dd03153f@oemcomputer> > ><002b01c11622$78aa2440$4903153f@oemcomputer> > >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 > >Fred, > >I'l mail a copy to you if you give me your address. There's nothing in >there, other than "defendant's motions are well taken." Actually that's >that >main reason why I think he was simply afraid of the case. BTW, I'm >cancelling my bwn.net email address, so please use the hotmail address. > >Best regards, > >Yorgos _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at https://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 8:11 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing The nsa also owes my wife an apology for its insulting letter of 1996. https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "John MacLeod" wrote in message news:9lh54q$9a2mp$1@ID-73584.news.dfncis.de... > Maybe I've missed something but I remember the letter from the NSA being > to two members of the Glaysher family. If one thinks that the matter is > simply a misunderstanding based on that letter then one would have > expected it to be applied to both. I don't know if it was but it would > help resolve this issue. > > ---------- From: Deborah Buchhorn[SMTP:debbuch@flash.net] Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 10:28 PM To: Fred Glaysher Subject: Re: Buchhorn vs LSA/NSA Fred Glaysher wrote: > > Dear Ms. Buchhorn, > > Thanks for sharing so much with me about your experience > in and out of court. I spoke with Yorgos over the phone once > and understand your comments. I'm sure he meant well and > thought the judge would be reasonable about the obvious facts. > My being 47, he struck me as perhaps a little too young and > enthusiastic. Having been a Bahai over twenty-five years, I've > had a lot of sobering experience with the realities you too have > encountered. > > I have a request. I understand your discretion regarding your > lawyer. I've edited everything along those lines out of your > message to me using ellipses and brackets and added > paragraphs just to help the reader a little. Would you mind if > I shared this copy below online with others? I believe it would > help many people understand how serious matters stand in the > Faith today. If you want to make any other changes to it just let me > know. > > Best wishes, > > Frederick Glaysher > 668 Bolinger > Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 USA > 248-651-3380 > www.fglaysher.com > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ > > -- > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, No, I don't mind at all your contacting me. > > . . . Ms. Kennedy brought up my lawsuit where I state that I was removed > from the Gospel Choir, and that I was directed to get deepening in the > covenant. The point in my lawsuit was due process and the trustee's > obligation of a reasonable inquiry into a matter. I never did anything to > anyone, said anything to anyone, was never asked a single question, nor > ever told why this happened. That was the point. Also, I really don't need > instruction in the Covenant. I can recite the biblical ones as well as > the Greater and Lesser one of the Baha'i Faith, the point was, if I > needed instruction on the Covenant, why didn't I receive it in the > alleged class that was set up for me instead of a 3 hour interrogation. > Is that what they call instruction in the Covenant? > > . . . The real situation here Fred is that I was out-prayed. Mrs. Kavelin > who > serves on this Assembly went to Haifa for the dedication and had all the > members of the House if not the House itself, praying. She told me > first hand that she was at all the thresholds. When this happens, God > may give you what you want, according to Abdu'l Baha', but it will be > worse. Let me clue you in. I was at last allowed to see the books of > this Assembly after a l0 month wait. They are very cooked, very > fraudulent, and very incriminating. I was left alone with them and took > what I needed to prove some very, very, very, illegal behavior. I have > written to the NSA and told them that in their Feb 23 letter they say > they are giving my "volumious materials" due consideration and to rest > assured that I will be hearing from them". I filed the suit anyway > because they had already had a lot of my "voluminous materials" for 6 > years and the last packet for 2 and a half years. Anyway, I reminded > them that just because the lawsuit was not heard for lst amendment > issues, didn't mean anything was changed as far as the allegations were > concerned. They were still true. The court did not dismiss the > allegations. They granted a motion to dismiss on the first amendment > right of a religion to abuse it's members by virtue of free association > or rather, I agreed to it. That's why I was suing for corporate > duties. I should have won. Like I said. Things got twisted. . . . I was > out-prayed. > > Since things will now be worse, I will be taking my evidence of fraud in > the books and elsewhere to the Attorney General of the State and let > the people of New Mexico handle the frauds. I'm sorry....but I am > bound by law and the Baha'i Writings to obey the law and the law says > if I know about Fraud, I have to report it. I can also prove it and I will. > > I hope this brings you some sense of hope that there is still a lot that > can and will be done to correct what both you and I perceive as > serious problems in the Administrative Order. I cannot in good > conscience teach this Faith anymore, and I have been one of the > strongest teachers. I don't know if you know it but I have traveled 3 > continents with the Voices of Baha Choir along with everything else > that is stated in my lawsuit. That's really the reason I was removed > from the local Gospel Choir, which 6 months later didn't exist and still > doesn't to this day. When you listen to the Baha'i World Congress > Films . . . that really high voice is mine. > > The problem is I have been accused of being "out of unity" with > my Local Spiritual Assembly, and I am, that's because I'm in unity with > the higher institutions and my Assembly isn't. I would have to do a > psycotic split to be in unity with both. I understand how you feel. I > feel the same way. I got a word of encouragement recently. My friend > [name deleted] in [location deleted] called me and told me that > [name deleted] the Continental Councellor came to [location deleted] > and gave a talk this week, in the body of that talk [name deleted] said, > "you would have thought it was you or me up there speaking" she > couldn't believe it. [name deleted] said "these Local Spiritual Assemblies > will answer to God for what they are doing". Is this a sign of some kind > of shift? I hope so. But it isn't enough to make me back off. > > My Assembly had the audacity to publish in cheerful tones as headlines > in the Newsletter. "all allegations against the Spiritual Assembly were > dismissed!" What a blatantly false statement. I emailed the newsletter > and demanded a retraction . . . that is if they are interested in the truth. > They are really on the spot. If they don't it proves who they are and that > they don't care about the truth. Also, the principle of the "independant > investigation of truth" is printed on the cover of every newsletter. I > brought this to their attention and told them to encourage the believers > to investigate the lawsuit as it was a "sworn", "verified" suit that I was > prepared to take into a court of law and prove. I got an email from the > Assembly saying these emails to the newsletter had been forwarded > and the Assembly was taking them under advisement. If they don't retract, > they will be reading the truth of themselves in the Albuquerque Journal. > > Thanks for entering the suit Fred. Your Amicus was very good. I think > the judge was lazy and relied on the oral arguments which were > twisted . . . I thought you deserved a real explanation. > > Contact me anytime, > > Sincerely, > > Deborah Buchhorn Dear Fred, How about publishing that Deborah Buchhorn is now going to play a hand that she didn't have on the table for everyone to see....that's all. More later. It's best to wait....The situation with the books is really a bad topic too since I don't want them to suspect what I am doing so they re-cook them. They have no compunction about anything and they believe themselves to be infallible so re-cooking the books would be ofcourse an ok thing to do after all they are just a reflection of what was thought to be ok in that moment and after reflection (or incrimination) they will just adjust to a better format because they are babies and they didn't know. No intention of wrongdoing...please... I don't know how they can remove the fraud, but believe me, they will try. I don't want anyone to know what I'm doing. I will be going to Scott Parson's of the White Collar Crime division here in Albuquerque as well as the other accountable institutions ie. the IRS, the State of NM, etc. But the white collar crime division is 6 months behind in investigation. They have already had l0 months to come up with what they showed me. They will, I promise you, change the books or get phony receipts. I want them with their pants down so to speak, ie. no reciepts. Those cash withdrawals will be hard to explain then, but if they are WARNED, they will get receipts from wherever they can and whoever they can get to falsify them. Please don't publish anything for now. I'll let you know very soon. Best regards, Deborah Buchhorn ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 8:34 AM Subject: Re: A Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing I repeat, further, the non-bahai, and indeed bahai, should consider carefully that the real purpose of the continual harassment regarding my membership in the bahai faith is to strike fear into the heart of anyone else who would dare speak his or her mind, a right guaranteed by Abdu'l-Baha, effectively silencing others. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0108170621.1bab094c@posting.google.com... > "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:<9lgj68$98df1$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de>... > > "NightShadow" wrote in message > > news:3b7bcc7a.23487797@news... > > > > >Obviously he still WANTS to be a Baha'i in good standing. > > > > Correction: I AM a Baha'i in Perfectly Good Standing. The bahai > > administration has NEVER notified me to the contrary, regardless > > of how often fundamentalists slander and backbite me. > > Fred, > > Not according to the agency responsible for the determination of the > validity of you membership. According to them you have not been a > Baha'i in good standing since 02/99. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 8:38 AM Subject: Re: UPDATE on Deborah Buchhorn v NSA/LSA Deborah Buchhorn is apparently continuing to take action against the lsa of Albuquerque and the nsa of the United States for FRAUD and LIBEL. I, for one, wish her well in obtaining the Justice Baha'u'llah extolled. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:9jrk27$19sr2$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > Apparently the judge just didn't want anything to do with an > Iranian religion, is what I've heard.... Why bother, I guess.... > > One thing is for sure: there will be other lawsuits, as time goes on.... > > That this case was filed, revealing all that it does, is in itself a > major development for those Bahais concerned about the > integrity of Baha'u'llah's Teachings. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ > > > "Nima Hazini" wrote in message > news:9jft03$118$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > > Just to update everyone on this case. Judge Scott has ruled on the Motion > to > > Dismiss and found for the defendants, i.e. TRUSTEES OF THE SPIRITUAL > > ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í S OF ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, and THE SPIRITUAL > > ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í'S OF ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, a non-profit > > corporation, and the NATIONAL SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í'S OF THE > > UNITED STATES, an Illinois Corporation. The Motion to Dismiss was granted > on > > First Amendment grounds as argued by the attorneys for the defendant in > > Geoffrey Goldberg's summary posted earlier. > > > > cheers, > > Nima > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 9:37 AM Subject: test - ignore test ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 7:09 AM Subject: Re: UPDATE on Deborah Buchhorn v NSA/LSA "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." --Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- "This is a goodly temple and congregation, for--praise be to God!--this is a house of worship [Central Congregational Church in Brooklyn on 16 June 1912] wherein conscientious opinion has free sway. Every religion and every religious aspiration may be freely voiced and expressed here. Just as in the world of politics there is need for free thought, likewise in the world of religion there should be the right of unrestricted individual belief. Consider what a vast difference exists between modern democracy and the old forms of despotism. Under an autocratic government the opinions of men are not free, and development is stifled, whereas in a democracy, because thought and speech are not restricted, the greatest progress is witnessed. It is likewise true in the world of religion. When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization may give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are inevitable. Therefore, this is a blessed church because its pulpit is open to every religion, the ideals of which may be set forth with openness and freedom." --Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, 197. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "NightShadow" wrote in message news:3b7ed311.221812344@news... > There was someone named multiman@aros.net who once said...: > > > > >As much as I have to agree that Fred over posts and can be quite > >upsetting at times to Baha'is, that question below is really uncalled > >for and frankly none of your business how often a believer or none > >believer reads your books, the Bible the Quran or Uncle Tom's Cabin. > > > >It also throws you in the intelelctual light of being better than he > >since obviously you have read it. > > > >Unfortunately I know many people who have read things that havent got > >a clue when it comes to what they read. > > I do not presume to present myself as an example for anything. I live > my own life and have a hard enough time minding my own P's and Q's. I > honestly don't expect an answer nor would I respond if he gave one. I > asked in the hope that he would be reminded of the laws on his own or > be inspired to read them soon/again to better understand their > meaning. My job, as a Baha'i, is to defend the Faith as well as teach > it to others- and learn from it myself, which is a continual process. > That is the obligation of ANY Baha'i- if they follow the laws set > forth by the Faith's founder. Fred hasn't been defending the Faith, > it's that simple. If he takes the Blessed Writings seriously, as he > claims, then he would do so. Bashing the Faith is explicitly not > allowed and condemned in both the books I mentioned. If he has read > them, he would know that. If he hasn't, the opportunity can present > itself readily- I'll even send him my own copies if he doesn't have > any himself. I would rather challenge his knowledge of the writings > than throw derogatory names or condemn him. > > His commentary and actions are unmistakable attacks on the religion > that I owe my life and very existence to. A not-too-subtle jab back by > asking pointed questions is the least I can do to defend it (believe > me, I was tempted to do/say more). The NSA or UHJ certainly isn't > going to waste their time on one measely individual because they have > more important things to do- like try to rectify the situations Fred > has been so kind to point out. But why other Baha'is don't encourage > him to be mindful of the teachings is beyond me. ANY person who > attacks the Faith in an open forum with such a wide audience should be > responded to immediately, IMHO. To let him go on and continue to > frighten/confuse seekers damages the Faith, which is something Baha'is > should not allow to occur. > > If you find my methods wrong, I can understand that and even > understand why. I WAS strong-handed. But no more so than he has been > against the Faith I love so dearly. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 7:14 AM Subject: Re: UPDATE on Deborah Buchhorn v NSA/LSA Quite right. I couldn't agree more. Criminals, at all levels, of the bahai administration, take note: Many of our fellow bahais have had enough of your duplicity and betrayal of Baha'u'llah's Teachings. Ms. Buchhorn has followed the Baha'i Teachings in this regard and apparently intends to continue to do so, thank God.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "J.K.A. Singh-Rathore" wrote in message news:3b7efa9c$0$54323$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be... > > > The Spiritual Asssmblies are not above the laws of the countries in which > they are registered. Should there be a conflict between the action of the > spritual assemblies and the laws of the host countries, Baha'is, according > to the laws of the Baha'i Faith, are obliged to report the matter to the > appropriate Baha'i and Legal Institutions. > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 4:27 PM Subject: Re: UPDATE on Deborah Buchhorn v NSA/LSA "The Bahai Technique": https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Roger Reini" wrote in message news:yh2BO2XtDm1IeAYEhEJdt23MmXj9@4ax.com... > On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:14:18 -0400, "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good > Standing" wrote: > > >Quite right. I couldn't agree more. Criminals, at all levels, > >of the bahai administration, take note: Many of our > >fellow bahais have had enough of your duplicity and > >betrayal of Baha'u'llah's Teachings. > > > >Ms. Buchhorn has followed the Baha'i Teachings in > >this regard and apparently intends to continue to do so, > >thank God.... > > Part of me wants to respond to this message and to its slander of the > Baha'i Administrative Order -- part of me doesn't. > > The part that doesn't wins. So I'll not dignify this remark with > further comment. > > Roger (roger@rreini.com) > https://www.rreini.com/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 1:45 PM Subject: Re: Political AI "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0108210725.758cd5c5@posting.google.com... >> Randy, > > "Core Teachings?" like ranking right up there with equality of men and > > (cough, cough) wimmin? > > We cannot take one teaching and rank it with the others. If > Baha'u'llah said it then it is a part of our core beliefs. How about these core Teachings: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." --Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- "This is a goodly temple and congregation, for--praise be to God!--this is a house of worship [Central Congregational Church in Brooklyn on 16 June 1912] wherein conscientious opinion has free sway. Every religion and every religious aspiration may be freely voiced and expressed here. Just as in the world of politics there is need for free thought, likewise in the world of religion there should be the right of unrestricted individual belief. Consider what a vast difference exists between modern democracy and the old forms of despotism. Under an autocratic government the opinions of men are not free, and development is stifled, whereas in a democracy, because thought and speech are not restricted, the greatest progress is witnessed. It is likewise true in the world of religion. When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization may give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are inevitable. Therefore, this is a blessed church because its pulpit is open to every religion, the ideals of which may be set forth with openness and freedom." --Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, 197. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 1:51 PM Subject: Re: UPDATE on Deborah Buchhorn v NSA/LSA "Roger Reini" wrote in message news:yh2BO2XtDm1IeAYEhEJdt23MmXj9@4ax.com... > On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:14:18 -0400, "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good > Standing" wrote: > > >Quite right. I couldn't agree more. Criminals, at all levels, > >of the bahai administration, take note: Many of our > >fellow bahais have had enough of your duplicity and > >betrayal of Baha'u'llah's Teachings. > > > >Ms. Buchhorn has followed the Baha'i Teachings in > >this regard and apparently intends to continue to do so, > >thank God.... > Reini wrote: > Part of me wants to respond to this message and to its slander of the > Baha'i Administrative Order -- part of me doesn't. From Buchhorn's lawsuit: Failure to Allow Inspection of Books and Records 17. The books and records of the corporation have been maintained in an inaccurate and inequitable manner. 18. The year 2000 annual meeting showed a 10%, $10,000 discrepancy in the corporate books. 19. In a letter dated September 3, 2000, named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn informed the Local Spiritual Assembly that she desired to inspect their financial books. Defendants refused. 20. Following mailing of the demand letter, the LSA offered to allow named Plaintiff to inspect the books and records, but under conditions that the Plaintiff deemed in bad faith. Criminals who steal $10,000 from our fellow bahais and deserve to be condemned and prosecuted, not get away with it because of the dishonesty of the administration in Wilmette and elsewhere. One might mention in this context the tens of thousands of dollars stolen in Phoenix, St. Louis, LA, and elsewhere. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 7:39 AM Subject: Re: UPDATE on Deborah Buchhorn v NSA/LSA "Randy Burns" wrote in message news:rAFg7.496$Hl3.216528@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > Its typical of "fundamentalists" to deny reality when confronted with it. > > Cheers, Randy As well as indulge in ad hominem, The Bahai Techinique: https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm Non-bahais new to this arena may want at least to glance at the more than decade-long record of dishonesty of such fundamentalists painstakingly compilied on my bahai website. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 7:43 AM Subject: Re: UPDATE on Deborah Buchhorn v NSA/LSA "If he exercises his anger and wrath against the bloodthirsty tyrants who are like ferocious beasts, it is very praiseworthy...." Abdu'l-Baha, SAQ, 215 -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:9m092j$bmcch$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > "Randy Burns" wrote in message > news:rAFg7.496$Hl3.216528@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > > Its typical of "fundamentalists" to deny reality when confronted with it. > > > > Cheers, Randy > > As well as indulge in ad hominem, The Bahai Techinique: > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm > > Non-bahais new to this arena may want at least to glance at > the more than decade-long record of dishonesty of such > fundamentalists painstakingly compilied on my bahai website. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 6:33 PM Subject: Re: A Baha'i sense of humor: does it exist? "drmg" wrote in message news:e4dbf2f5.0108221525.5312fe62@posting.google.com... > First we have to *consult* about whether or not the light bulb needs changing. > That can take a very long time! Already over a decade by my count.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 6:43 AM Subject: Re: UPDATE on Deborah Buchhorn v NSA/LSA "Randy Burns" wrote in message news:BmQg7.728$tY6.57674@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > > More fun just to attack the bearer of bad tidings, attack the messenger. > Much more fun. Do you deny the other embezzlements as well, as in Phoenix? Or discredit, malign, slander, demonize, etc., etc., "The Bahai Technique," that is, of bahai fundamentalists, not the Teachings proper: https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm And what about the $60,000 dollars stolen by "administrators" in Phoenix and never reported in the American Bahai, suppressed from its pages, as other crimes by the annointed always have been.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 7:13 AM Subject: Re: Globalization and Unity of Mankind : Baha'i View As an accredited participant at the Millennium Forum, I can attest to many of the observations made in the Century of Light. However, I believe it's only necessary and honest to point out the hypocrises of the bahai administration itself in regard to human rights. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ Full text also below: https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/UN2.htm Subject: REPOST-REVISED- ** bahai ** United Nations Millennium Forum & Summit Date: Sunday, June 11, 2000 12:59 PM I attended, as an accredited participant, the United Nations Millennium Forum of civil society organizations from May 22-26, 2000. Some may be interested in knowing that bahais were central to the event which produced a report to advise heads of state at the Millennium Summit this September at the United Nations - the first such gathering of so many national heads since WW II. "The final edited version of the "We the Peoples Millennium Forum Declaration and Agenda for Action" has now been posted to the Forum's Website. This version includes ... several final additions that were adopted by the Forum on Friday, 26 May 2000 during its final session." It can be found through links at: https://www.millenniumforum.org as well as directly at: https://www.millenniumforum.org/html/papers/mfd26May.htm RealPlayer video of several Millennium Forum sessions, including Techeste Ahderom, co-chair of the forum and principal representative to the United Nations, bahai international community: https://www.un.org/millennium/summit1.htm Also some might find Kofi Annan's "We the Peoples," his official recommendations that will serve as the basis for this September's Millennium Summit, interesting: https://www.un.org/millennium/sg/report/ The uhj, in it's ridvan [April] 2000 message, jubilantly celebrated their increase of power, control, and influence at the United Nations: "It must be a source of great satisfaction to Baha'is everywhere that the Baha'i International Community as an NGO representing a cross-section of humankind has won such trust as a unifying agent in major discussions shaping the future of humankind. Our principal representative at the United Nations was appointed to co-chair the Committee on Non-Governmental Organizations, which was established by the Economic and Social Council--a position that is giving the Baha'i International Community a leading role in the organization of the Millennium Forum. This gathering, called by UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan and scheduled to be held in May, will give organizations of civil society an opportunity to formulate views and recommendations on global issues which will be taken up at the subsequent Millennium Summit in September of this year to be attended by heads of state and government." https://www.bahai-library.org/published.uhj/ridvan/index.html I should mention that it was quite an experience hearing Techeste Ahderom, the bahai international community representative who did much of the work putting the Forum together, in the UN General Assembly Hall, urging the importance of strengthening human rights throughout the world.... "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3b846234@isis.cybersurf.net... Globalization and Unity of Mankind : Baha'i View THE IMAGE USED BY 'ABDU'L-BAHA to capture for His hearers the coming transformation of society was that of light. Unity, He declared, is the power that illuminates and advances all forms of human endeavour. The age that was opening would come in the future to be regarded as "the century of light", because in it universal recognition of the oneness of humankind would be achieved. With this foundation in place, the process of building a global society embodying principles of justice will begin. The vision was enunciated by the Master in several Tablets and addresses. Its fullest expression occurs in a Tablet addressed by 'Abdu'l-Baha to Jane Elizabeth Whyte, wife of the former Moderator of the Free Church of Scotland. Mrs. Whyte was an ardent sympathizer of the Baha'i teachings, had visited the Master in 'Akka and would later make arrangements for the particularly warm reception that met Him in Edinburgh. Using the familiar metaphor of "candles", 'Abdu'l-Baha wrote to Mrs. Whyte: O honored lady!... Behold how its [unity's] light is now dawning upon the world's darkened horizon. The first candle is unity in the political realm, the early glimmerings of which can now be discerned. The second candle is unity of thought in world undertakings, the consummation of which will erelong be witnessed. The third candle is unity in freedom which will surely come to pass. The fourth candle is unity in religion which is the corner-stone of the foundation itself, and which, by the power of God, will be revealed in all its splendor. The fifth candle is the unity of nations - a unity which in this century will be securely established, causing all the peoples of the world to regard themselves as citizens of one common fatherland. The sixth candle is unity of races, making of all that dwell on earth peoples and kindreds of one race. The seventh candle is unity of language, i.e., the choice of a universal tongue in which all peoples will be instructed and converse. Each and every one of these will inevitably come to pass, inasmuch as the power of the Kingdom of God will aid and assist in their realization.144 While it will be decades - or perhaps a great deal longer - before the vision contained in this remarkable document is fully realized, the essential features of what it promised are now established facts throughout the world. In several of the great changes envisioned - unity of race and unity of religion - the intent of the Master's words is clear and the processes involved are far advanced, however great may be the resistance in some quarters. To a large extent this is also true of unity of language. The need for it is now recognized on all sides, as reflected in the circumstances that have compelled the United Nations and much of the non-governmental community to adopt several "official languages". Until a decision is taken by international agreement, the effect of such developments as the Internet, the management of air traffic, the development of technological vocabularies of various kinds, and universal education itself, has been to make it possible, to some extent, for English to fill the gap. "Unity of thought in world undertakings", a concept for which the most idealistic aspirations at the opening of the twentieth century lacked even reference points, is also in large measure everywhere apparent in vast programmes of social and economic development, humanitarian aid and concern for protection of the environment of the planet and its oceans. As to "unity in the political realm", Shoghi Effendi has explained that the reference is to unity which sovereign states achieve among themselves, a developing process the present stage of which is the establishment of the United Nations. The Master's promise of "unity of nations", on the other hand, looked forward to today's widespread acceptance among the peoples of the world of the fact that, however great the differences among them may be, they are the inhabitants of a single global homeland. "Unity in freedom" has today, of course, become a universal aspiration of the Earth's inhabitants. Among the chief developments giving substance to it, the Master may well have had in mind the dramatic extinction of colonialism and the consequent rise of self-determination as a dominant feature of national identity at century's end. * Whatever threats still hang over humanity's future, the world has been transformed by the events of the twentieth century. That the features of the process should also have been described by the Voice that predicted it with such confidence ought to command earnest reflection on the part of serious minds everywhere. The changes wrought in humanity's social and moral life received powerful endorsement at a series of international gatherings called under the United Nations' authority to mark the approaching end of one "millennium" and the beginning of a new one. On 22-26 May 2000, representatives of over one thousand non-governmental organizations assembled in New York at the invitation of Kofi Annan, the United Nations Secretary-General. In the statement that emerged from this meeting, spokespersons of civil society committed their organizations to the ideal that: "...we are one human family, in all our diversity, living on one common homeland and sharing a just, sustainable and peaceful world, guided by universal principles of democracy...."145 Shortly afterwards, from 28-31 August 2000, a second gathering brought together leaders of most of the world's religious communities, likewise assembled at the United Nations Headquarters. The Baha'i International Community was represented by its Secretary-General, who addressed one of the plenary sessions. No observer could fail to be struck by the call of the world's religious leaders, formally, for their communities "to respect the right to freedom of religion, to seek reconciliation, and to engage in mutual forgiveness and healing...."146 These two preliminary events prepared the way for what had been designated as the Millennium Summit itself, meeting at the United Nations Headquarters from 6-8 September 2000. Bringing together 149 heads of state and government, the consultation sought to give hope and assurance to the populations of the nations represented. The Summit took the welcome step of inviting a spokesman for the Forum of non-governmental organizations to share the concerns that had been identified at that preparatory gathering. It seemed to Baha'is as significant as it was gratifying that the individual accorded this high honour was the Baha'i International Community's Principal Representative to the United Nations, in his capacity as Co-Chairman of the Forum. Nothing so dramatically illustrates the difference between the world of 1900 and that of 2000 than the text of the Summit Resolution, signed by all the participants, and referred by them to the United Nations General Assembly: "We solemnly reaffirm, on this historic occasion, that the United Nations is the indispensable common house of the entire human family, through which we will seek to realize our universal aspirations for peace, cooperation and development. We therefore pledge our unstinting support for these common objectives, and our determination to achieve them."147 In concluding this sequence of historic meetings, Mr. Annan addressed himself to the assembled world leaders in surprisingly candid terms - terms that, for many Baha'is, carried echoes of Baha'u'llah's stern admonition to the now vanished kings and emperors who had been these leaders' predecessors: "It lies in your power, and therefore it is your responsibility, to reach the goals that you have defined. Only you can determine whether the United Nations rises to the challenge."148 * Despite the historic importance of the meetings and the fact that the greater portion of humanity's political, civil and religious leadership took part, the Millennium Summit made little impression on the public mind in most countries. Generous media attention was given to certain of the events, but few readers or listeners could fail to note the expression of scepticism that characterized editorial treatment of the subject or the air of doubt - even of cynicism - that crept into many of the news stories themselves. This sharp disjunction between an event that could legitimately claim to mark a major turning-point in human history, on the one hand, and the lack of enthusiasm or even interest it aroused among populations who were its supposed beneficiaries, on the other, was perhaps the most striking feature of the millennium observations. It exposed the depth of the crisis the world is experiencing at century's end, in which the processes of both integration and disintegration that had gathered momentum during the past hundred years seem to accelerate with each passing day. Those who long to believe the visionary statements of world leaders struggle at the same time in the grip of two phenomena that undermine such confidence. The first has already been considered at some length in these pages. The collapse of society's moral foundations has left the greater part of humankind floundering without reference points in a world that grows daily more threatening and unpredictable. To suggest that the process has nearly reached its end would be merely to raise false hopes. One may appreciate that intense political efforts are being made, that impressive scientific advances continue or that economic conditions improve for a portion of humankind - all without seeing in such developments anything resembling hope of a secure life for oneself, or more importantly, for one's children. The sense of disillusionment which, as Shoghi Effendi warned, the spread of political corruption would create in the minds of the mass of humankind is now widespread. Outbreaks of lawlessness have become pandemic in both urban and rural life in many lands. The failure of social controls, the effort to justify the most extreme forms of aberrant behaviour as primarily civil rights issues, and an almost universal celebration in the arts and media of degeneracy and violence - these and similar manifestations of a condition approaching moral anarchy suggest a future that paralyzes the imagination. Against the background of this desolate landscape the intellectual vogue of the age, seeking to make a virtue out of grim necessity, has adopted for itself the appellation and mission of "deconstructionism". The second of the two developments undermining faith in the future was the focus of some of the Millennium Summit's most anguished debates. The information revolution set off in the closing decade of the century by the invention of the World Wide Web transformed irreversibly much of human activity. The process of "globalization" that had been following a long rising curve over a period of several centuries was galvanized by new powers beyond the imaginations of most people. Economic forces, breaking free of traditional restraints, brought into being during the closing decade of the century a new global order in the designing, generation and distribution of wealth. Knowledge itself became a significantly more valuable commodity than even financial capital and material resources. In a breathtakingly short space of time, national borders, already under assault, became permeable, with the result that vast sums now pass instantly through them at the command of a computer signal. Complex production operations are so reconfigured as to integrate and maximize the economies available from the contributions of a range of specializing participants, without regard to their national locations. If one were to lower one's horizon to purely material considerations, the earth has already taken on something of the character of "one country" and the inhabitants of various lands the status of its consumer "citizens". Nor is the transformation merely economic. Increasingly, globalization assumes political, social and cultural dimensions. It has become clear that the powers of the institution of the nation-state, once the arbiter and protector of humanity's fortunes, have been drastically eroded. While national governments continue to play a crucial role, they must now make room for such rising centres of power as multinational corporations, United Nations agencies, non-governmental organizations of every kind, and huge media conglomerates, the cooperation of all of which is vital to the success of most programmes aimed at achieving significant economic or social ends. Just as the migration of money or corporations encounters little hindrance from national borders, neither can the latter any longer exercise effective control over the dissemination of knowledge. Internet communication, which has the ability to transmit in seconds the entire contents of libraries that took centuries of study to amass, vastly enriches the intellectual life of anyone able to use it, as well as providing sophisticated training in a broad range of professional fields. The system, so prophetically foreseen sixty years ago by Shoghi Effendi, builds a sense of shared community among its users that is impatient of either geographic or cultural distances. The benefits to many millions of persons are obvious and impressive. Cost effectiveness resulting from the coordination of formerly competing operations tends to bring goods and services within the reach of populations who could not previously have hoped to enjoy them. Enormous increases in the funds available for research and development expand the variety and quality of such benefits. Something of a levelling effect in the distribution of employment opportunities can be seen in the ease with which business operations can shift their base from one part of the world to another. The abandonment of barriers to transnational trade reduces still further the cost of goods to consumers. It is not difficult to appreciate, from a Baha'i perspective, the potentiality of such transformations for laying the foundations of the global society envisioned in Baha'u'llah's Writings. Far from inspiring optimism about the future, however, globalization is seen by large and growing numbers of people around the world as the principal threat to that future. The violence of the riots set off by the meetings of the World Trade Organization, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund during the last two years testifies to the depth of the fear and resentment that the rise of globalization has provoked. Media coverage of these unexpected outbursts focused public attention on protests against gross disparities in the distribution of benefits and opportunities, which globalization is seen as only increasing, and on warnings that, if effective controls are not speedily imposed, the consequences will be catastrophic in social and political, as well as in economic and environmental, terms. Such concerns appear well-founded. Economic statistics alone reveal a picture of current global conditions that is profoundly disturbing. The ever-widening gulf between the one fifth of the world's population living in the highest income countries and the one fifth living in the lowest income countries tells a grim story. According to the 1999 Human Development Report published by the United Nations Development Programme, this gap represented, in 1990, a ratio of sixty to one. That is to say, one segment of humankind was enjoying access to sixty percent of the world's wealth, while another, equally large, population struggled merely to survive on barely one percent of that wealth. By 1997, in the wake of globalization's rapid advance, the gulf had widened in only seven years to a ratio of seventy-four to one. Even this appalling fact does not take into account the steady impoverishment of the majority of the remaining billions of human beings trapped in the relentlessly narrowing isthmus between these two extremes. Far from being brought under control, the crisis is clearly accelerating. The implications for humanity's future, in terms of privation and despair engulfing more than two thirds of the Earth's population, helped to account for the apathy that met the Millennium Summit's celebration of achievements that were, by every reasonable criteria, truly historic. Globalization itself is an intrinsic feature of the evolution of human society. It has brought into existence a socio-economic culture that, at the practical level, constitutes the world in which the aspirations of the human race will be pursued in the century now opening. No objective observer, if he is fair-minded in his judgement, will deny that both of the two contradictory reactions it is arousing are, in large measure, well justified. The unification of human society, forged by the fires of the twentieth century, is a reality that with every passing day opens breath-taking new possibilities. A reality also being forced on serious minds everywhere, is the claim of justice to be the one means capable of harnessing these great potentialities to the advancement of civilization. It no longer requires the gift of prophecy to realize that the fate of humanity in the century now opening will be determined by the relationship established between these two fundamental forces of the historical process, the inseparable principles of unity and justice. * In the perspective of Baha'u'llah's teachings, the greatest danger of both the moral crisis and the inequities associated with globalization in its current form is an entrenched philosophical attitude that seeks to justify and excuse these failures. The overthrow of the twentieth century's totalitarian systems has not meant the end of ideology. On the contrary. There has not been a society in the history of the world, no matter how pragmatic, experimentalist and multiform it may have been, that did not derive its thrust from some foundational interpretation of reality. Such a system of thought reigns today virtually unchallenged across the planet, under the nominal designation "Western civilization". Philosophically and politically, it presents itself as a kind of liberal relativism; economically and socially, as capitalism - two value systems that have now so adjusted to each other and become so mutually reinforcing as to constitute virtually a single, comprehensive world-view. Appreciation of the benefits - in terms of the personal freedom, social prosperity and scientific progress enjoyed by a significant minority of the Earth's people - cannot withhold a thinking person from recognizing that the system is morally and intellectually bankrupt. It has contributed its best to the advancement of civilization, as did all its predecessors, and, like them, is impotent to deal with the needs of a world never imagined by the eighteenth century prophets who conceived most of its component elements. Shoghi Effendi did not limit his attention to divine right monarchies, established churches or totalitarian ideologies when he posed the searching question: "Why should these, in a world subject to the immutable law of change and decay, be exempt from the deterioration that must needs overtake every human institution?"149 Baha'u'llah urges those who believe in Him to "see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others", to "know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbour". Tragically, what Baha'is see in present-day society is unbridled exploitation of the masses of humanity by greed that excuses itself as the operation of "impersonal market forces". What meets their eyes everywhere is the destruction of moral foundations vital to humanity's future, through gross self-indulgence masquerading as "freedom of speech". What they find themselves struggling against daily is the pressure of a dogmatic materialism, claiming to be the voice of "science", that seeks systematically to exclude from intellectual life all impulses arising from the spiritual level of human consciousness. And for a Baha'i the ultimate issues are spiritual. The Cause is not a political party nor an ideology, much less an engine for political agitation against this or that social wrong. The process of transformation it has set in motion advances by inducing a fundamental change of consciousness, and the challenge it poses to everyone who would serve it is to free oneself from attachment to inherited assumptions and preferences that are irreconcilable with the Will of God for humanity's coming of age. Paradoxically, even the distress caused by prevailing conditions that violate one's conscience aids in this process of spiritual liberation. In the final analysis, such disillusionment drives a Baha'i to confront a truth emphasized over and over again in the Writings of the Faith: "He hath chosen out of the whole world the hearts of His servants, and made them each a seat for the revelation of His glory. Wherefore, sanctify them from every defilement, that the things for which they were created may be engraven upon them."150 ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 8:45 AM Subject: bahai - Re: Hi Michael. CEDAW, et al Michael, Alas, your words are all too true.... The politicization of the administrative order itself has definitely hamstrung Baha'u'llah's Faith and stands now as the greatest impediment between it and the conversion of the masses, my dearest wish.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:9m2t4i$g9k$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Hi, Ron. > Do you mean that Australia has a "Commissioner for Discrimination" ? > That is quite funny to our ears. It reminds me of reading a translation > of Hung Lou Meng (A DREAM OF RED MANSIONS) and coming upon someone > making an offering to the Goddess of Smallpox. Of course, that "of" > meant she was supposed to protect against the disease. "For" seems even > more active (in favour) to English listening ears. > I find it tremendously interesting that an Australian court would > state that the signing of this international agreement meant that now > discrimination was legal in Australia. I understand that legal issues > can be very complex and have no awareness of the specifics of this case. > Turning to the Baha'i aspect, you're right on. If those in power in > the Baha'i Faith use that power to take action against believers urging > politely that the Baha'i Faith be administered according to Baha'i > principles, declaring that such urging is lobbying, for the powerful now > to urge lobbying demonstrates their hypocricy, actually their blatantly > political nature. > I believe that the lofty nature of the life and teachings of such > noble souls as Jesus and Baha'u'llah is quite evident. It is also very > clear that there has been great beneficial influence exerted by such > teachings and such lives. Other people, very much human beings, have used > positions of responsibility within the organizations emerging among the > believers to do things these holy souls have strongly opposed. The worship > of such organizations and the unthinking disregard of the lofty teachings > of these noble souls in favour of the blatant politics of such other > people is the greatest sin of those calling themselves ordinary believers. > Such a refusal to live a spiritual life and instead to follow the very > human and politically minded leaders of organizations has been the cause > of much harm to humanity and this is very much the situation at present > within Baha'i. > To a Better Future, > Michael ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 6:43 AM Subject: Re: Globalization and Unity of Mankind : Baha'i View How typical. Blame, in one way or another, its many victims.... "The Bahai Technique": https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3b85ae90@isis.cybersurf.net... | As an accredited participant at the Millennium Forum, | I can attest to many of the observations made in the | Century of Light. However, I believe it's only necessary | and honest to point out the hypocrises of the bahai | administration itself in regard to human rights. | A feature of the past hundred years of Baha'i development that should seize the attention of any observer is the Faith's success in overcoming the attacks made on it. As had been the case during the ministries of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, elements in society who either resented the rise of the new religion or feared the principles it teaches sought by every means in their power to suffocate it. Hardly a decade of the past century did not witness attempts of this kind - ranging from the bloody persecutions incited by Shi'ih clergy and the shameless falsehoods concocted and spread by their Christian counterparts, to systematic efforts at suppression by various totalitarian regimes, and, finally, to violations of their commitment to Baha'u'llah on the part of the insincere, the ambitious or the malevolent among its professed adherents. By every human standard, the Cause should have succumbed to a barrage of opposition without parallel in recent history. Far from succumbing, it flourished. Its reputation rose, its membership vastly increased, its influence spread beyond the dreams of earlier generations of its followers. Persecution served to galvanize its supporters' efforts. Calumny drove believers to seek a more mature understanding of its history and teachings. And, as both the Master and the Guardian had promised, violation of the Covenant washed out of its ranks persons whose behaviour and attitudes had dampened the faith of others and inhibited progress. If the Cause could bring no other testimony to the powers that sustain it, this succession of triumphs alone should suffice. [—Century of Light] more... ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 6:52 AM Subject: Re: Globalization and Unity of Mankind : Baha'i View The non-bahai observer might find comparing the fanaticism expressed in Mesbah's quotation from the "Century of Light" with Abdu'l-Baha: "Likewise, when you meet those whose opinions differ from your own, do not turn away your face from them. All are seeking truth, and there are many roads leading thereto. Truth has many aspects , but it remains always and forever one. Do not allow difference of opinion, or diversity of thought to separate you from your fellow-men, or to be the cause of dispute, hatred and strife in your hearts." --Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, 53. Like all religions declining into tyranny, the fundamentalists who now control the bahai faith want only mindless obedience, intolerance, and sycophancy. Plenty of room for sheep, none for people of real capacity.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3b85ae90@isis.cybersurf.net... | As an accredited participant at the Millennium Forum, | I can attest to many of the observations made in the | Century of Light. However, I believe it's only necessary | and honest to point out the hypocrises of the bahai | administration itself in regard to human rights. | A feature of the past hundred years of Baha'i development that should seize the attention of any observer is the Faith's success in overcoming the attacks made on it. As had been the case during the ministries of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, elements in society who either resented the rise of the new religion or feared the principles it teaches sought by every means in their power to suffocate it. Hardly a decade of the past century did not witness attempts of this kind - ranging from the bloody persecutions incited by Shi'ih clergy and the shameless falsehoods concocted and spread by their Christian counterparts, to systematic efforts at suppression by various totalitarian regimes, and, finally, to violations of their commitment to Bah a'u'llah on the part of the insincere, the ambitious or the malevolent among its professed adherents. By every human standard, the Cause should have succumbed to a barrage of opposition without parallel in recent history. Far from succumbing, it flourished. Its reputation rose, its membership vastly increased, its influence spread beyond the dreams of earlier generations of its followers. Persecution served to galvanize its supporters' efforts. Calumny drove believers to seek a more mature understanding of its history and teachings. And, as both the Master and the Guardian had promised, violation of the Covenant washed out of its ranks persons whose behaviour and attitudes had dampened the faith of others and inhibited progress. If the Cause could bring no other testimony to the powers that sustain it, this succession of triumphs alone should suffice. [—Century of Light] more... ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 7:02 AM Subject: Re: Does anyone here have VALID questions regarding the Baha'i Faith? What could be clearer? Either you have "VALID" questions, in the estimation of fundamentalists like Jay Seals, or you don't. He, and literalists like him, who, notice, "actually love the Faith and support it entirely," have the wisdom to discern the difference.... A most revealing post. One worth reflecting on and also comparing the words of Abdu'l-Bahai: "Likewise, when you meet those whose opinions differ from your own, do not turn away your face from them. All are seeking truth, and there are many roads leading thereto. Truth has many aspects , but it remains always and forever one. Do not allow difference of opinion, or diversity of thought to separate you from your fellow-men, or to be the cause of dispute, hatred and strife in your hearts." --Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, 53. Alas, how far the fundamentalist interpretation has wandered from His Teachings.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "NightShadow" wrote in message news:3b850252.166751154@news... > For those of you who are interested in the Faith and its teachings, > what are your questions? The few Baha'is here that actually love the > Faith and support it entirely may be able to answer them or post > excerpts from the writings in an effort to guide you through your > investigation process. > > There are some people here who have no other desire than to destroy > the Faith and attack it, intent of apprising everyone of perceived > evils within the Faith that are subject to conjecture. These people > are either non-believers or Covenant Breakers (people who oppose the > Faith from within it) and should be taken with a grain of salt or > ignored, if possible. > > If you have genuine questions, please post them and those of us who > are happy to answer them will do so to the best of our ability. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 7:06 AM Subject: Re: Globalization and Unity of Mankind : Baha'i View Another passage worth comparing to the "Century of Light": "Today we have closed our eyes to every righteous act and have sacrificed the abiding happiness of society to our own transitory profit. We regard fanatacism and zealotry as redounding to our credit and honor, and not content with this, we denounce one another and plot each other's ruin, and whenever we wish to put on a show of wisdom and learning, of virtue and godliness, we set about mocking and reviling this one and that. "The ideas of such a one," we say, "are wide of the mark, and so-and-so's behavior leaves much to be desired. The religious observances of Zayd are few and far between, and Amr is not firm in his faith."...With words such as these they assualt the minds of the helpless masses and disturb the hearts of the already bewildered poor, who know nothing of the true state of affairs and the real basis for such talk and remain completely unaware of the fact that a thousand selfish purposes are concealed behind the supposedly religious eloquence of certain individuals. They imagine that speakers of this type are motivated by virtuous zeal, when the truth is that such individuals keep up a great hue and cry because they see their own personal ruin in the welfare of the masses, and believe that if the people's eyes are opened their own light will go out. Abdul-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, 56-57, 1990 edition. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3b85adda@isis.cybersurf.net... | I attended, as an accredited participant, the United Nations Millennium | Forum of civil society organizations from May 22-26, 2000. Some may be | interested in knowing that bahais were central to the event which produced a | report to advise heads of state at the Millennium Summit this September at | the United Nations - the first such gathering of so many national heads | since WW II. | A feature of the past hundred years of Baha'i development that should seize the attention of any observer is the Faith's success in overcoming the attacks made on it. As had been the case during the ministries of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, elements in society who either resented the rise of the new religion or feared the principles it teaches sought by every means in their power to suffocate it. Hardly a decade of the past century did not witness attempts of this kind - ranging from the bloody persecutions incited by Shi'ih clergy and the shameless falsehoods concocted and spread by their Christian counterparts, to systematic efforts at suppression by various totalitarian regimes, and, finally, to violations of their commitment to Baha'u'llah on the part of the insincere, the ambitious or the malevolent among its professed adherents. By every human standard, the Cause should have succumbed to a barrage of opposition without parallel in recent history. Far from succumbing, it flourished. Its reputation rose, its membership vastly increased, its influence spread beyond the dreams of earlier generations of its followers. Persecution served to galvanize its supporters' efforts. Calumny drove believers to seek a more mature understanding of its history and teachings. And, as both the Master and the Guardian had promised, violation of the Covenant washed out of its ranks persons whose behaviour and attitudes had dampened the faith of others and inhibited progress. If the Cause could bring no other testimony to the powers that sustain it, this succession of triumphs alone should suffice. [—Century of Light] more... ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 9:27 AM Subject: Re: Globalization and Unity of Mankind : Baha'i View Sure enough. Here's an illustrious bahai psychiastrist: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/danesh.htm The Ottawa Citizen April 27, 1994, Wednesday, FINAL EDITION Psychiatrist cuts deal on sex assault charges The Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons has withdrawn charges of sexual impropriety against a psychiatrist who is the past secretary general of the Baha'i faith in Canada. Dr. Hossain Banadaki Danesh, 56, was a former associate professor of psychiatry and family medicine at the University of Ottawa before joining the Baha'is of Canada, where he was secretary general from 1985 to 1989. Conditions for dropping the charges include Danesh's immediate resignation and an agreement not to practice again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- Date: April 26, 1994 Page A8 Source: By Dale Anne Freed, Toronto Star Sex charges withdrawn when psychiatrist resigns The College of Physicians and Surgeons withdrew charges of sexual impropriety yestery against a psychiatrist who is past secretary general of the Baha'i faith in Canada. Charges were withdrawn against Dr. Hossain Banadaki Danesh in exchange for Danesh's immediate resignation and his "written undertaking not to reapply for another licence to practice medicine in Ontario or to apply to practice medicine anywhere else, at any time." He has also agreed to post $10,000 security toward costs incurred by the college in paying for therapy for the complainants. Charges were laid by three former patients. Danesh, 56, has not admitted to any sexual impropriety with any of his patients. Danesh came to Canada from Iran in 1970 and is well-known in the Baha'i community for his marital counselling and seminars, as well as his lectures on non-violence, said Gerald Filson, executive director of public affairs for the Baha'i community in Canada. A former associate professor of psychiatry and family medicine at the University of Ottawa, Danesh left that position to serve on the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of Canada, the national executive, where he was secretary general from 1985 to 1989. Formerly of Burlington, Danesh now resides on Vancouver Island and is still a member of the governing council for the Baha'i faith of Canada, Filson said. Danesh is one of nine elected members on that council. He resigns that position effective this Saturday, April 30, prior to a move to Switzerland within the next two months, where he will accept an academic post, Filson said. -- Further details on my website. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Mesbah" wrote in message news:542b8395.0108241511.4441a557@posting.google.com... > "As you are well aware, many people come into the Faith needing > psychiatric treatment, and it is often very difficult for them to find > a psychiatrist who will not urge them to some course of behavior which > is contrary to the teachings of the Faith. There are a number of > Baha'i psychologists and psychiatrists who are endeavoring to develop > their skills in the light of the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, and use > can certainly be made of their services where available..." [-UHJ to > USA NSA, 2 Dec. 1976] ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 7:38 AM Subject: Re: Globalization and Unity of Mankind : Baha'i View That's your answer to: >Sure enough. Here's an illustrious bahai psychiastrist: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/danesh.htm How predictable.... Hide behind accusations and intimidations of covenant breaking.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/index.htm "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3b87d6b6$1@isis.cybersurf.net... ...the believers need to be deepened in their knowledge and appreciation of the Covenants of both Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha. This is the stronghold of the Faith of every Baha'i, and that which enables him to withstand every test and the attacks of the enemies outside the Faith, and the far more dangerous, insidious, lukewarm people inside the Faith who have no real attachment to the Covenant, and consequently uphold the intellectual aspect of the teachings while at the same time undermining the spiritual foundation upon which the whole Cause of God rests. [Shoghi Effendi, 15 April 1949 to an individual believer] ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 7:42 AM Subject: Re: Globalization and Unity of Mankind : Baha'i View "This is a goodly temple and congregation, for--praise be to God!--this is a house of worship [Central Congregational Church in Brooklyn on 16 June 1912] wherein conscientious opinion has free sway. Every religion and every religious aspiration may be freely voiced and expressed here. Just as in the world of politics there is need for free thought, likewise in the world of religion there should be the right of unrestricted individual belief. Consider what a vast difference exists between modern democracy and the old forms of despotism. Under an autocratic government the opinions of men are not free, and development is stifled, whereas in a democracy, because thought and speech are not restricted, the greatest progress is witnessed. It is likewise true in the world of religion. When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization may give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are inevitable. Therefore, this is a blessed church because its pulpit is open to every religion, the ideals of which may be set forth with openness and freedom." --Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, 197. You and fundamentalists like you are the ones "undermining the spiritual foundation upon which the whole Cause of God rests." The non-bahai observer trying to make sense of all this might wish to take a look at "The Bahai Technique": https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3b87d6b6$1@isis.cybersurf.net... ...the believers need to be deepened in their knowledge and appreciation of the Covenants of both Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha. This is the stronghold of the Faith of every Baha'i, and that which enables him to withstand every test and the attacks of the enemies outside the Faith, and the far more dangerous, insidious, lukewarm people inside the Faith who have no real attachment to the Covenant, and consequently uphold the intellectual aspect of the teachings while at the same time undermining the spiritual foundation upon which the whole Cause of God rests. [Shoghi Effendi, 15 April 1949 to an individual believer] ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 6:43 AM Subject: https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ - The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience FYI I've decided to move my website to Angelfire.com since NBCi has been bought out and is no longer allowing anyone to update their sites. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai In *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 6:48 PM Subject: WARNING - Fundamentalist Deception There's quite a lot of it on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai, as usual. The non-bahai observer might want to proceed with caution. Distinguishing appearance from reality in bahai cyberspace is especially difficult. I suggest you judge for yourself by becoming acquainted with a wide variety of views on my and Prof. Cole's bahai websites. Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, surveys the many incidents of bahai censorship that have taken place during the last few decades in "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 6:37 AM To: glaysher@umich.edu Subject: Fw: No racism in JAPan ??????? Elliot, When I stumbled onto this article this morning, I thought of you and that you might find it interesting. It's from soc.culture.japan on Usenet. Dad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Long John Smith" Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan,soc.culture.asian.american,soc.culture.china,soc.culture.a frican.american Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 1:27 PM Subject: No racism in JAPan ??????? > https://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=1&id=59069 > > Immigrants struggling in Japan > Elaine Lies > > Monday, August 27, 2001 at 18:30 JST > > TOKYO — Spicy aromas hang in the air as cars edge through narrow > streets crowded with restaurants serving fiery noodle soups and Korean > barbecue, while stores are stocked with shrimp paste, curry mix and > bitter melon. > > Lively conversations in Chinese and Korean, Malaysian and Thai > predominate. Yet this is Tokyo, with its ultra-modern city hall towers > looming barely a kilometre away. > > The Shin-Okubo neighbourhood in west-central Tokyo is one of the more > obvious faces of Japan's growing immigrant population — and a > growing challenge. > > For despite Japan's rapidly ageing population and low birth rate > — which create a need for immigration to fill increasing gaps in > the working-age population — the nation remains reluctant to > open its doors to foreigners. > > "Japan is an active player in the world community, so in that sense it > is more international than it used to be," said sociologist Takayoshi > Kitazawa. "But that doesn't mean its fundamental feeling toward other > nations has changed that much." > > Others were even more blunt. > > "There is still a huge amount of prejudice among many ordinary > people," social commentator Tomoko Inukai said. "They don't like > people whose skin is a different colour. > > Japan might not want to accept immigration, but stark demographics > could leave it with little choice. > > Last year, senior citizens outnumbered children for the first time > ever, with 17.7% of the population aged 64 or older compared with > 14.4% aged 15 or younger. By 2020, one in four Japanese will be over > 65, according to some estimates. > > A United Nations report predicted a radical scenario in which Japan > would require about 10 million immigrants a year over the next 50 > years to keep its 1995 ratio of working people to pensioners, unless > it raises its retirement age to 77. > > The government has taken tentative steps over the past year toward > easing tough regulations on foreign workers, such as moving to > increase the number of areas in which they could enter the country for > training, but progress is slow. > > Currently, these areas are limited mainly to people with expertise in > specialised fields such as journalism, academia and some high-tech > sectors. > > But immigrants, both legal and illegal, have for some years performed > the manual labour shunned by Japanese, working in jobs considered > dangerous or dirty, such as construction, even as some lament their > presence. > > "Some people say they're taking jobs from Japanese," Inukai said. "But > this isn't true, even now when unemployment is so high. They're just > doing the jobs Japanese won't touch." > > Others, though, say the flagging economy, with unemployment at a > record 4.9%, is making a hard situation even worse. > > "Immigrants are now the last hired and the first fired," said Akihiko > Suzuki, director of the Tokyo-based National Network in Solidarity > with Migrant Workers. "Jobs are much harder to get." > > According to government figures, there were some 1.69 million > registered foreign residents in Japan at the end of last year, up from > 1.56 million in 1999 and 1.08 million a decade ago. > > The estimated number of illegal foreign residents was 252,000 as of > the end of 1999, according to the latest figures available. > > While these numbers may be small compared with other industrialised > nations, they are disquieting for some in Japan, which has long prided > itself on its homogeneity. > > "There is a sense among Japanese that they are somehow special," said > Inukai. "People have so much pride that they don't really want to > consider anything outside Japan." > > Japan does in fact have a minority — the Ainu, indigenous to > northern Japan, who have different features from other Japanese. > > Another group, known as "burakumin", consists of people whose > ancestors engaged in occupations once considered impure, such as > leatherworking and the slaughter of animals. As a result, they were > outcasts in feudal Japan. > > Both have faced centuries of discrimination, shut out of society as > "foreigners" in their own country. > > The same is now true for a substantial number of ethnic Koreans and > Chinese, descendants of people forcibly brought over during Japan's > colonisation of the Korean Peninsula and Taiwan, who are essentially > Japanese but still face problems. > > Analysts say this is a reflection of Japan's extremely strong emphasis > on group bonding, which resulted in any outsiders — anyone > different — being regarded with suspicion. > > "In rural areas, there are still some older people who won't truly > accept people from a different village, much less from a different > country," Kitazawa said. > > In a disturbing official expression of xenophobia, Tokyo governor > Shintaro Ishihara told troops last year that they should be ready to > respond in the event that illegal foreign residents rioted if a big > earthquake hit Tokyo. > > The remarks revived painful memories for long-time Korean residents, > hundreds if not thousands of whom were attacked and killed by Japanese > mobs because of unfounded rumours of riots after the Great Kanto > Earthquake hit Tokyo in 1923. > > Ishihara said he meant no offence to foreigners living here legally, > but stuck to his stance that illegal aliens pose a threat to public > order despite widespread criticism — concerns shared by many > Japanese as crime rates edge up, activists say. > > They note, though, that official data indicating a higher crime rate > for foreigners are misleading since the government underestimates the > number of foreigners, putting it at about one percent of the total > population when it may be closer to four. > > Much of the discrimination faced by foreigners in Japan is common > anywhere — landlords refusing to rent to them, taxi drivers > speeding by — but it's worse for Asian and African immigrants > than for those from Europe or the United States. > > The difference, though, is there are few of the legal safeguards found > in other nations. > > Although racial and ethnic discrimination are prohibited by Japan's > post-war constitution, there is no separate law outlawing such acts > and stipulating penalties. > > "The lack of a legal framework to prohibit racial discrimination is a > major obstacle," said Mieko Fujioka, an official at IMADR, a > non-governmental organisation fighting discrimination. > > "NGOs working on the issue of racial discrimination have been > demanding legislation to prohibit it, but the government thinks that > the existing civil and penal provisions are enough." > > Despite the fact that many problems remain, activists say they are > seeing some hopeful signs of change. > > "As the visibility of people living in Japan increases, attitudes are > changing, at least among the younger generation," said Fujioka. "For > instance, today's young Japanese would think it 'cool' that a Korean > living here is a foreigner." > > Others said the key may be simply getting to know non-Japanese > naturally and learning to appreciate diversity. > > "I've been working with non-Japanese for 10 years," said Suzuki. "And > during this time I've learned to not only accept difference, but enjoy > it. That is the true meaning of an international society." (Reuters > News) ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:52 AM Subject: Read-Only Attribute - Help Needed I copied all my WordPerfect files, Microsoft FrontPage, and others to a CD and then copied them back to my hard drive. They're now in Read-Only when I right click a file. Also, when I open a file through WordPerfect, or whatever, it comes up as Read-Only. Since I have thousands of files involved, I need to change them back all at once! I have the windows98 upgrade edition and IE6. Anyone know how to do it? Thanks for your help! Fred Glaysher FG@hotmail.com ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 1:08 PM Subject: Re: Read-Only Attribute - Help Needed Bob and PCForrest, Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try all your advice right away. Fred "PCForrest" wrote in message news:9no1sf$8mb$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk... > "Frederick Glaysher" wrote in message news:2wLn7.104186$K6.41468936@news2... > > I copied all my WordPerfect files, Microsoft FrontPage, and others to a CD > > and then copied them back to my hard drive. They're now in Read-Only when I > > right click a file. Also, when I open a file through WordPerfect, or > > whatever, it comes up as Read-Only. > > > > Since I have thousands of files involved, I need to change them back all at > > once! > > > > I have the windows98 upgrade edition and IE6. > > > > Anyone know how to do it? Thanks for your help! > > To avoid adding Read-Only attributes to your burned files, ZIP > them up before burning them. Only the ZIP file(s) will be read- > only. The files within them will retain their original attributes. > > To remove attributes in bulk, put them all into a new folder > (using sub-folders as necessary). Then issue the following DOS > command: > > ATTRIB -R x:\folder\*.* /S > > Where x:\folder is the path to the folder you created. You can > then move the documents to wherever they belong. > > If any of the files have a system or hidden attribute set, use the > following "catch-all" solution instead: > > ATTRIB -R -A -S -H x:\folder\*.* /S > > -- > Peter C. Forrest > https://www.pcforrest.freeserve.co.uk > > 'The significant problems we face cannot be solved > at the same level of thinking we were at when we > created them.' - Albert Einstein > > > ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Read-Only Attribute - Help Needed Bob, I've followed your instructions and it seems to be working though I have a lot of subfolders that will make it very time consuming. Any way of doing all subfolders at the same time? Also, I've apparently deleted a hidden file under My Documents, the folder I keep all my files and subfolders in. It seems to open very slowly now as do all the subfolders. Is there any way to restore the hidden file? I appreciate your and Peter's help? Fred FG@hotmail.com "Bob" wrote in message news:3B9F8AA2.DA4D1424@hotmail.com... > Highlight all your files that you want to remove the read only in the right > pane of explorer & right click, choose properties & at the bottom of the page > uncheck the read only & that will do it. Hope this helps. Bob > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > I copied all my WordPerfect files, Microsoft FrontPage, and others to a CD > > and then copied them back to my hard drive. They're now in Read-Only when I > > right click a file. Also, when I open a file through WordPerfect, or > > whatever, it comes up as Read-Only. > > > > Since I have thousands of files involved, I need to change them back all at > > once! > > > > I have the windows98 upgrade edition and IE6. > > > > Anyone know how to do it? Thanks for your help! > > > > Fred Glaysher > > FG@hotmail.com > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:28 AM Subject: Re: In the light of this Tragedy The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Adelard R" wrote in message news:9npua60a6h@enews1.newsguy.com... > My heart goes on too, not only for the dead ones in NY, but also for > thousands of people dying everyday because of hunger, disease, war, etc > while none cares > about them. > For those who want to understand the vision of peace and the spiritual > transformation, the Revelation of Baha'u'llah has to offer to the world, > please visit this site www.bahai.org > > God bless. > Adelard ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:36 AM Subject: Re: Oneness of Religion The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3ba01edf@isis.cybersurf.net... There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. (Bahá'u'lláh: Gleanings, p. 217) ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:42 AM Subject: Re: Oneness of Religion The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3ba01eee@isis.cybersurf.net... There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. (Bahá'u'lláh: Gleanings, p. 217) ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 7:48 AM Subject: Re: Oneness of Religion The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3ba01e3b@isis.cybersurf.net... There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. (Bahá'u'lláh: Gleanings, p. 217) ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 8:41 AM Subject: Re: In the light of this Tragedy "The Bahai Technique": https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "NightShadow" wrote in message news:3b9f47c2.514390135@news... > There was someone named "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" > who once said...: > > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > >https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ > > I feel that this was most inappropriate, Fred. Your views on the > Baha'i Faith have absolutely nothing with the horrendous tragedy > endured in New York- except to associate, indirectly, the Baha'i Faith > with it, which is baseless. There is nothing laudible in associating > this atrocity to the Baha'i Faith unless it is in a purely positive > manner and extolling the positive actions of individual Baha'is who > are volunteering their services to help in the clean up at the site of > this terrible crime against humanity. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:01 PM Subject: Re: Edmonton Baha'is... The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3ba11cea@isis.cybersurf.net... Edmonton Baha'is web ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:04 PM Subject: Re: Finally the capitalists will lose The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3ba11bc6@isis.cybersurf.net... Laws must be made because it is impossible for the laborers to be satisfied with the present system. They will strike every month and every year. Finally the capitalists will lose. `Abdu'l-Bahá ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:10 PM Subject: Re: Should Begin with the Farmer -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3ba11869@isis.cybersurf.net... Solution to Economic Problem Should Begin with the Farmer ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:12 PM Subject: Re: Baha'u'llah's Message to:THE ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PEOPLES IN EVERY LAND -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3b9c3fdd@isis.cybersurf.net... Baha'u'llah's Message to: THE ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PEOPLES IN EVERY LAND ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:27 AM Subject: bahai - "universal" house of "justice" - Little Better Than The Terrorists Who Attacked NY Sad fact, sad fact.... having betrayed the moderation articulated in the Writings.... -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:29 AM Subject: Character assassination The bahai fundamentalist way: "But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence." --K. Paul Johnson Full text at https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:31 AM Subject: Right Wing bahais "....right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute." --Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan Full text at https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:47 AM Subject: bahai - Roll Call of Victims The latest victim is Deborah Buckhorn. Her story may be read at New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuit.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm The many other victims of bahai fundamentalists include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:48 AM Subject: bahai - HAIFA Messages In addition to below, be sure to see FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuit.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm --------------------------------------------------------------- This file contains two messages: "to uhj 12-10-99," "to uhj 7-24-1998": From: Patrick Henry Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights of Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed would never be violated in their religion. I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; indeed, the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending Baha'u'llah'sTeachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his Revelation. -- Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.) From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message regarding: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Patrick Henry patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor ; bahai-faith @ makelist.com Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM July 24,1998 Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in Iran would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the international community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, always courting the President and other members of the government, has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents as I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many individuals, Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within the Bahai community and administration. https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/To-UHJ1.htm To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more than ayear and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat twice now, along with thecollusion of other Bahais, the creation of an unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience": https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under Bahai-Discuss Archives. https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/BCCAmenu.htm Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA has approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban for more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding talk.religion.bahai. The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," if you will, of Bahai censorship? -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:49 AM Subject: How to Improve Your bahai Newsgroup Experience Assuming you use IE5, click on Tools, then Message Rules, followed by News. Add for talk.religion.bahai and for alt.religion.bahai the email addresses or names of the bahai fundamentalists and fanatics of your choice: smaneck@aol.com dfiorito@my-deja.com rlittle95@my-deja.com kohliCUT@ameritel.net postmaster@ishop-usa.com brieze_way@nospam.hotmail.com patk9018@my-deja.com RSSchaut@email.msn.NOSPAMcom saman@ticnet.com mee@tsn.cc roger@rreini.com dr.walker@fsandp.remove.com Click on Apply Now. Further word of advice based on over three and a half years online: Also add them to Blocked Senders List. There are others you might want to add. Despite the hounding of the fundamentalists, names do not appear in any rank order. One of the best things about IE5 is that it is so easy to add fundamentalists as they show up or adopt false identities.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 9:01 AM Subject: Re: Read-Only Attribute - Help Needed Bob & PCForrest, I appreciate your help. It all helped! Fred "Frederick Glaysher" wrote in message news:kDMn7.104206$K6.41506712@news2... > Bob and PCForrest, > > Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try all your advice > right away. > > Fred > > > "PCForrest" wrote in message > news:9no1sf$8mb$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk... > > "Frederick Glaysher" wrote in message > news:2wLn7.104186$K6.41468936@news2... > > > I copied all my WordPerfect files, Microsoft FrontPage, and others to a > CD > > > and then copied them back to my hard drive. They're now in Read-Only > when I > > > right click a file. Also, when I open a file through WordPerfect, or > > > whatever, it comes up as Read-Only. > > > > > > Since I have thousands of files involved, I need to change them back all > at > > > once! > > > > > > I have the windows98 upgrade edition and IE6. > > > > > > Anyone know how to do it? Thanks for your help! > > > > To avoid adding Read-Only attributes to your burned files, ZIP > > them up before burning them. Only the ZIP file(s) will be read- > > only. The files within them will retain their original attributes. > > > > To remove attributes in bulk, put them all into a new folder > > (using sub-folders as necessary). Then issue the following DOS > > command: > > > > ATTRIB -R x:\folder\*.* /S > > > > Where x:\folder is the path to the folder you created. You can > > then move the documents to wherever they belong. > > > > If any of the files have a system or hidden attribute set, use the > > following "catch-all" solution instead: > > > > ATTRIB -R -A -S -H x:\folder\*.* /S > > > > -- > > Peter C. Forrest > > https://www.pcforrest.freeserve.co.uk > > > > 'The significant problems we face cannot be solved > > at the same level of thinking we were at when we > > created them.' - Albert Einstein > > > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 2:44 PM Subject: Re: Chaos and Confusion "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:9nsg3m$41l$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... Sadly Baha'is are > repeating the same dangerous ideological and moral non sequitors of older > traditions; this, when they should know better. I couldn't agree more. Bahai fundamentalists like Dave Fiorito and others merely prove the truth of your observations.... Having betrayed the moderate Teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha on freedom of speech and conscience, their fanaticism is only to be expected. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 2:51 PM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Thanks, Randy, for having the courage to stand up to such fanaticism. It's certainly one of the most important lessons we must all re-learn from the abominable attack on New York that we ignore and tolerate evil only at our ultimate peril.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Randy Burns" wrote in message news:QXro7.287$UY3.90181@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > Dave > > I think you need some counseling help. > > Sincerely, Randy > > -- > > Dave Fiorito wrote in message > news:f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c@posting.google.com... > > Little Better Than the Terrorists > > > > fglaysher > > 9/14/01 7:51 AM 1 out of 2 > > > > Sad fact, sad fact.... Having betrayed the moderation > > articulated in the Writings.... > > > > fglaysher > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------- > > > > To: Fred > > From: the white hot ball of anger in my gut. > > > > > Snip > make me sick. > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 4:29 PM Subject: Re: bahai - "universal" house of "justice" - Little Better Than The Terrorists Who Attacked NY The latest victim is Deborah Buckhorn. Her story may be read at New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuit.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm The many other victims of bahai fundamentalists include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 4:30 PM Subject: Re: Fred - Roll Call of Victims The latest victim is Deborah Buckhorn. Her story may be read at New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuit.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm The many other victims of bahai fundamentalists include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109141134.7e9efb0a@posting.google.com... > I have come to realize that Fred is an abuser. He is mentally abusive > to the Baha'is. > > He claims to be the victim but lets look at his methods. > > He posts outrageous claims like Dan Jordan being murdered by the UHJ, > that the Baha'is are only a little better than the terrorists who > attacked the WTC and the Pentagon. > > He makes claims about imaginary "Baha'i Techniques" and claims that > there are thousands of victims of the Baha'i Faith. > > He claims that Baha'is do not want to talk about the substance of his > accusations, but when we do he never replies. > > He taunts Baha'is by spamming news groups with his rhetoric then he > runs behind his stock answers when anyone attempts to engage him in > dialogue. > > That is abusive behavior. Its like a child who calls someone names > and then runs. He does not want dialogue - he want to cause pain. > > In the wake of Tuesday's events he comes here and uses this time of > pain to inflict more pain by comparing Baha'is to scum bag terrorists. > > That is abuse. > > Fred's roll call of victims is long - far to long to post. If he has > his way the list will only grow becuase he does not care about healing > just his own shallow form of terror. He hits and runs leaving people > angered and agrieved. > > Fred has plenty of victims - but what he does not realize that he is > is own victim. > > I for one am sick of it. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:19 AM Subject: Re: US NSA Message on 9-11 The latest victim is Deborah Buckhorn. Her story may be read at New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuit.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm The many other victims of bahai fundamentalists include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:9nuqh1$r5c$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > The National Spiritual Assembly > of the Bahá'ís of the United States > > > September 11, 2001 > > To the American Bahá'í Community > > Dear Bahá'í Friends, > > Our hearts are shocked and grief-stricken by the shameless acts of terrorist > violence against innocent victims in New York, Pennsylvania, and Washington. > Fervently, we are praying for those who died and beseeching God to comfort > the hearts of those who have lost loved ones, and to strengthen our nation > and its people to meet this challenge with faith, courage, and unity. > > As you know, the Bahá'í Scriptures proclaim that God has given the United > States a spiritual mission to help reshape the world. The Bahá'í Writings > state that America will evolve, through purifying tests and trials to become > a land of spiritual distinction and leadership, a champion of justice and > unity among all peoples and nations, and powerful servant of the Cause of > everlasting peace. The Bahá'í Writings promise that this "signally blest" > nation will never be defeated and will triumphantly fulfill its God-ordained > mission. > > The Baha'i Faith has known crisis since its inception and many Baha'is, > especially in the cradle of the Faith, have faced brutal attacks with > faithfulness and noble resolve. Their model must be our standard. At this > moment of unprecedented disaster, we call on all of the followers of > Bahá'u'lláh in the United States to come to the aid of your nation in the > name of your Faith. The vision of Bahá'u'lláh's Healing Message and the Bahá > 'í spirit of universal love and assistance are more urgently needed now than > ever before. As you proceed to serve and assist your neighbors and > communities, we ask you to bear in mind these words of assurance and > guidance from the Bahá'í Writings. "Let each one of God's loved ones center > his attention on this, to be the Lord's mercy to man; to be the Lord's > grace. Let him do some good to every person whose path he crosseth, and be > of some benefit to him. Let him improve the character of each and all, and > reorient the minds of men. In this way, the light of divine guidance will > shine forth, and the blessings of God will cradle all mankind: for love is > light no matter in what abode it dwelleth; and hate is darkness, no matter > where it may make its nest. O friends of God! That the hidden Mystery may > stand revealed, and the secret essence of all things may be disclosed, > strive ye to banish that darkness for ever and ever." > > Our prayers and love are with you always, > > NATIONAL SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF > THE BAHÁ'ÍS OF THE UNITED STATES > > Robert C. Henderson, Secretary-General > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:44 AM Subject: Re: Chaos and Confusion "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message > > Those who flew the planes into the WTC were deluded into thinking that they > were blessed martyrs. They murdered thousands of innocent people including > children and babes in arms in the name of God and for the purpose of > shedding more blood by terrorising the US into changing its policies so as > to accommodate the blood lusts of their masters. No normal person would do > this - at least not until persuaded by corrupt religionists that this is the > Will of God! The Kamikaze did it for a divine Emperor but they had honour > and courage for they aimed their planes at enemy men of war. Acctually the terrorists remind me of the mentality demonstrated by Roger Reini, Dave Fiorito, and other fanatics among my fellow bahais: "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109141134.7e9efb0a@posting.google.com... > I have come to realize that Fred is an abuser. He is mentally abusive > to the Baha'is. > > He claims to be the victim but lets look at his methods. > > He posts outrageous claims like Dan Jordan being murdered by the UHJ, > that the Baha'is are only a little better than the terrorists who > attacked the WTC and the Pentagon. > > He makes claims about imaginary "Baha'i Techniques" and claims that > there are thousands of victims of the Baha'i Faith. > > He claims that Baha'is do not want to talk about the substance of his > accusations, but when we do he never replies. > > He taunts Baha'is by spamming news groups with his rhetoric then he > runs behind his stock answers when anyone attempts to engage him in > dialogue. > > That is abusive behavior. Its like a child who calls someone names > and then runs. He does not want dialogue - he want to cause pain. > > In the wake of Tuesday's events he comes here and uses this time of > pain to inflict more pain by comparing Baha'is to scum bag terrorists. > > That is abuse. > > Fred's roll call of victims is long - far to long to post. If he has > his way the list will only grow becuase he does not care about healing > just his own shallow form of terror. He hits and runs leaving people > angered and agrieved. > > Fred has plenty of victims - but what he does not realize that he is > is own victim. > > I for one am sick of it. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:46 AM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/hate15.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109141306.42aa5604@posting.google.com... > "Randy Burns" wrote in message news:... > > Dave > > > > I think you need some counseling help. > > > > Why? Because Fred pissed me off? Are you defending his obvious > attack on the Baha'i Community? Do you agree with him that Baha'is > are little more than terrorists? > > Come on man - Fred is being a prick and all I am doing is finally > calling him on it. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:53 AM Subject: bahai - NEWCOMERS BEGIN HERE If newcomers to talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai desire not to be deceived, it will require more than a passing glance at a few messages. I suggest you begin with the links below which provide a historical survey of the last several years of bahai censorship and then visit further my and Professor Cole's websites. -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Bahai Technique ---- Essential Reading https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations Documenting Censorship https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/srb-bq.htm alt.religion.bahai & talk.religion.bahai FAQ https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/FAQ.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/UHJ72498.htm To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/To-UHJ1.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, surveys the many incidents of bahai censorship that have taken place during the last few decades in "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuit.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:55 AM Subject: bahai - Backbiting - Slandering US Academics In addition to below, be sure to see FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuit.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm As a sample of the extreme views opposing free speech and academic freedom held by the uhj and its fundamentalists on talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere, see below the text of the uhj's letter circulated behind Cole's back, slandering and backbiting him within the bahai community. There have now been many American bahai academics who have received this type of treatment and been driven out of the bahai faith in one way or another, a fact the uhj seeks to conceal from the United Nations and US government officials. For Cole's comments and response, see this link: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm -- -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---- 3 August 1999 From: Department of the Secretariat Baha'i World Center Dear Baha'i Friend, Clearly, no one would dispute the right of Dr. Cole to write and publish whatever work a publisher is prepared to handle. Nor has anyone questioned the right of a Baha'i who is interested in such a book to purchase it. To suggest that the House of Justice is saying otherwise would be to seriously misconstrue the nature of its concern . . . As a participant in various Internet discussion groups over the past five years, and particularly in the last year or two, you cannot but be aware from these exchanges that Dr. Cole has embarked on a deliberate assault against the Baha'i Cause, in which he has not hesitated to attack its institutions, to misrepresent its fundamental teachings, and to abuse the trust of Baha'is who had been led to believe that they were engaged with him in a detached and scholarly search for the truth. These same Internetexchanges exposed you, like other participants, to a flood of calumny and invective against a great many of your fellow believers, on the part of Dr. Cole, that is scarcely credible in rational discourse. Had such a book as Modernity and the Millennium been written by a disinterested non-Baha'i scholar, its misconception of the nature of Baha'u'llah's Mission and its other shortcomings would have represented no more than understandable weaknesses of an honest attempt to explore a religious phenomenon as yet little understood in the West. Indeed, in this context, such an attempt to make the Baha'i Faith comprehensible to the Western academic mind, however inadequate it might appear to knowledgeable Baha'i scholars, would surely have earned its author a measure of genuine Baha'i appreciation for the writing and research skills deployed in devising it. As you -- like other participants in certain Internet discussion groups -- are well aware, however, the book's author is not a disinterested scholar. Rather, he is a deeply embittered individual who, as his book was in preparation, had just denounced in the most intemperate language an apparent twenty-year allegiance to Baha'u'llah, in the wake of a failed attempt on his part to impose his private ideological agenda on the Baha'i community's study of Baha'u'llah's Message. Modernity and the Millennium represents an effort to provide the current stage of this long-running scheme with the underpinnings of scholarly rationalization. What is this rationalization? Although distorted by its evasion of Baha'i Texts that contradict its main assertions, and blurred by reliance on speculations peculiar to its author's purpose, the thesis appears to run somewhat as follows: Baha'u'llah's work and Writings represent essentially one of several efforts by Middle East thinkers to work out a "response" to the challenges posed by European modernity in the form of rationalism, revolution, nationalism, economic upheaval, feminism and other contemporary developments. Although Oriental in origin, this particular "response", in contrast to various others, was unusually "progressive", "liberal", "idealistic", even "radical". Because it "grew up" in a congenial modernist era, its Author was able gradually to adjust and revise the ideas with which He had been "grappling", through benefiting (in a manner generally insinuated rather than explicitly stated) from successive interactions with other thinkers and movements. By 1862, apparently in order to deal with the problem of religious exclusivity in the Muslim world, and in response to some form of "private mystical experience", He "decided to make a prophetic claim of his own" . . . The Covenant, the distinguishing feature of Baha'u'llah's Revelation, has been made the central target of this effort (a maneuver that Dr. Cole's book is at particular pains to shore up). Although forced to acknowledge theappointments of `Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian as Interpreters of Baha'u'llah's Message, every effort has been made to call such authoritative interpretation into question wherever it presents a problem for the notions being promoted. Similarly, although ostensibly acknowledging that the Universal House of Justice is Head of the Baha'i Faith today, this opposition has tried by every means possible to undermine the broad authority conferred in Baha'u'llah's own words and emphasized in the Master's Will and Testament. (In Dr. Cole's book, this agenda makes its appearance in the conclusion: namely, that the Faith founded by Baha'u'llah has failed in its mission because, like "the Khomeinist state in Iran", it has been somehow captured by "fundamentalists", by which term Dr. Cole has repeatedly characterized the members of the Universal House of Justice.) . . . With loving Baha'i greetings, Department of the Secretariat ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 9:01 AM Subject: bahai - SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI censorship SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI: Robert J. Pease, December 5, 1998: "I support your efforts to expose SRB as a fundamentalist group." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb84.htm Ron House: "I think the following is a clear case of malicious rejection of an article by the worst of the moderators of soc.religion.bahai." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb53.htm Timothy Mulligan: "(Sigh) Fred, I'm beginning to think you're right about those SRB moderators." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb59.htm RobertNik: "these guys are pompous arseholes IMHO." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb54.htm Bruce Burrill: "What are Baha'i afraid of?" https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb60.htm Zuteflute: "Frankly I could not see anything in the letter I wrote which would prompt someone to ask whether or not I am a Baha'i." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb50.htm YU ZIR: "But as an outsider, I can perhaps see the point Fred Glaysher is making, and which point none of SRB's defenders seem to address." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb46.htm Matthew Cromer: "The current moderators regulate the contents--posting articles which they agree with...." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb47.htm Kavosh Soltani, December 9, 1998:"So many Bahais on these forumshave shown to be ready to forget logic and reason, ignore clear evidence and Word of God, and come up with exactly the same line of tired and inaccurate excuses and arguments to justify their position, that it can not be a simple coincidence." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb77.htm Shakti3, December 4, 1998: "Sorry to hear that you've been surpressed on srb. Your comments were alway very "right on." Altho it does not surprise me one bit, seeing the way these newsgroups operate." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Ex7.htm Harold Shinsato: "It seems like there is an oppression over the Baha'i Faith." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb33.htm Steve Tomljenovic, December 3, 1998: "The moderators are a bit overzealous at times. Since all the controversy started, it has gotten worse." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb79.htm Laeterna: "To say I was flabberghasted at this type of "moderating" was putting it mildly indeed." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/censored2.htm Robin Peters: "I think you're to be commended for your persistence in the face of consistent censorship." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb43.htm jgoldberg: "I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. " https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb57.htm Ruletherod, November 17, 1998: "Too much damage has already been done in the name and to the name of Baha'u'llah by right-wing administrative bullies, linear-thinking apologists, and doctrinaire-fundamentalists. You can't just blame it all on the critics." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb76.htm Many other similar messages may be found on my web site under soc.religion.bahai censorship. https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb.htm -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 9:16 AM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet "Curious" wrote in message news:UYHo7.6144$iH4.412169@ozemail.com.au... > The Baha'is ignore > or turn away from the issue. As NightShadow has disengaged from and ignored > the issue in this forum, as Rick S has cut and run from it.....there is no > preparedness to discuss or examine 'fairness', 'due process' or 'justice' > once it has been established that these 'principles' have no 'practical' > application within the Baha'i community. > > It is easier, though weaker, to play the man rather than the ball. > > Rod. Ignoring the issues and ad hominem are indeed the games played by the fundamentalists now for years.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 9:32 AM Subject: bahai - Terrorism & Online Stalking bahai - Terrorism & Online Stalking Some of the evidence may be found at https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/hate.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/CHarassment.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/BahaiThreatsLawsuit.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/BahaiAttacksonme.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AOL.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/Ex.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 4:47 PM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Board Posting at Baha'i Message Board <> This volunteer leader regularly abuses his position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom he and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. He is the problem and cannot be relied on to moderate fairly. The bahai community leader is harassing me and others and trying to suppress all knowledge and discussion about the lawsuits against the bahai faith recently filed in New Mexico and the many incidents of silencing and coercing individual members. Please ask him to desist. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 4:48 PM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Board Posting at Baha'i Message Board <> This volunteer leader regularly abuses his position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom he and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. He is the problem and cannot be relied on to moderate fairly. The bahai community leader is harassing me and others and trying to suppress all knowledge and discussion about the lawsuits against the bahai faith recently filed in New Mexico and the many incidents of silencing and coercing individual members. Please ask him to desist. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 4:49 PM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Board Posting at Baha'i Message Board <> This volunteer leader regularly abuses his position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom he and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. He is the problem and cannot be relied on to moderate fairly. The bahai community leader is harassing me and others and trying to suppress all knowledge and discussion about the lawsuits against the bahai faith recently filed in New Mexico and the many incidents of silencing and coercing individual members. Please ask him to desist. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 4:50 PM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: No spamming please <> Fundamentalist ad hominem. No substance. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: Glayshf[SMTP:glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 5:02 PM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com; FG@home.com Subject: Re: No spamming please >I would like to remind you that the same message should not be posted >multiple times. It is not enough to just change the subject heading. >LDRS LFST Shahid >AOL Lifestyles A completely dishonest statement.... Let's look at the messgae you're using as pretext to censor and suppress: "Ad hominem. No substance." That, incidentally, applies well to your post and your attempt to pretend you have valid reason for deleting my message. I ask the TOSGeneral to cite this putative community leader who is abusing ridiculously his position to harass people such as myself because of views he does not approve of. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 5:07 PM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Board Posting at Bahai Message Board <> AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among our fellow bahais to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... The bahai community leader is harassing me trying to suppress all knowledge and discussion about the major lawsuit against the bahai faith recently filed in New Mexico. Please ask him to desist. This volunteer leader regularly abuses his position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom he and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views he opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... A clear example of the way AOL is manipulated and freedom of speech and conscience are regularly DAMAGED by AOL's indulgence. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 5:25 PM Subject: Re: How to Improve Your bahai Newsgroup Experience Robin, In my opinion, I do not advocate censorship by providing instructions on how to use the Message Rules incorporated into Outlook Express for those who wish to use them. Note well that I do not use that violent construction "killfile" so frequently employed by the fundamentalists. Talk.religion.bahai is a free and open forum on which anyone may post his or her views unfettered by anyone else. Similarly, everyone may choose at what point they are tired of listening to fundamentalists lie and repeat the script that has been handed to them from the worst elements on the uhj. The same technology can certainly be used to screen out my messages and anyone who wishes to do so may indeed use it. That's fine. Neither I nor any of the fundamentalists must be listened to even though we all have the right to post here. Properly speaking, censorship is what is taking place on soc.religion.bahai and AOL Message Boards by the fundamentalists who have and do prevent many different people from even postings to those forums in the first place. We may turn off the TV or radio or turn the channel.... It is an individual choice of what we ourselves choose to expose ourselves to. Thanks for your comments. Best wishes, -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "ROBIN M PETERS" wrote in message news:XX3p7.39296$e44.1388259612@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com... > Fred, > > May I suggest that Chris is right? > I'm Catholic now, but I think perhaps people would apply the same rules to > me that you suggest they apply to the Baha'is in your list. > Heck, for that matter, your suggestion could backfire - people could be > suppressing your messages using the same techniques you recommend using > against your detractors, thus defeating the purpose of your postings. > > Hoping you get the hint, I remain > > Yours truly, > > Robin Peters > https://www.abouttransplantation.com/report1001.html > https://www.ethicalexits.com/report1001.html ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 7:20 AM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Thank you for sharing your views on the lack of due process within the bahai faith. Even though I too have experienced these things and read of many others who have, I find it refreshing to hear again from a different person, another corroboration of the injustices so many have endured.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Curious" wrote in message news:xQfp7.703$pk3.33292@ozemail.com.au... > > NightShadow wrote in message > news:3ba302b8.758896975@news... > > There was someone named "Curious" who once > Snip > > >. Most of the time I will try to respond to > > messages addressed to me, but if I smell bait, I try to shy away- I > > don't like hooks getting caught in my mouth. In some of your responses > > I smelled bait, so I didn't respond. In other portions, I simply > > haven't had the time to. > > You feel 'baited'? Apprehensive that someone/me is out to 'hook' you? > Mate, I have been 'fishing' for explanations and answers for years. > The initial 'lure' I cast within the community- "What constitutes Baha'i > due process" was ignored, over and over again, for years. > So, eventually, I came here, onto the net. Changed fishing hole, changed > questions, lures and baits.....same response.....nothing. > > Yes, I am baiting the Baha'i community, independently fishing for the truth. > Nobody is prepared, willing or able to answer basic questions. > "Why are the fundamentals of due process denied to members of the Baha'i > community". > There is no 'hook'.......just a question that deserves an answer. > > > Please don't be condescending with me. I have not been so with you. > > No, you have been evasive or absent in response to the questions... > and I have been patient with the Baha'i community too long. If Baha'is, > as a community or as individual representatives on the net cannot, over > a prolonged period, 'condescend' to explain, justify or rectify the absence > of fair due process.....then yes.....my indignation inclines me to > condescending > and demanding language. > > > I > > am an individual. Despite the "fundie" mudslinging that goes on here, > > and sometimes in my general direction, you will find that I am content > > to listen to rational commentary as long as it isn't personally > > insulting or repugnant. > > I have not called or inferred that you are a "fundie". > If am unaware of anything that might be considered 'insulting' or > 'repugnant'... > ......a fart reference perhaps?;-). By all means, cite or repost any such > behavior. > > > I do not find evidence of a lack of due process, according to your > > wishes, to be embarrassing. > > In a community that proclaims Justice to be the best beloved of all things? > The absence of due process is not embarrassing? > I'm a Baha'i.....I find it profoundly embarrassing, repulsive and un > necessary. > > > I DO find it unfortunate, and I am > > investigating some stories on my own, but I don't do it out of > > embarrassment. I am learning- which takes audacity and patience. > > With respect....How long does it take to determine, as I believe you have > conceded, the absence of due process? What further 'learning' is required? > Why is there such 'audacious' silence on the issue? > What stands in the way of simple action and implementation? > (Beyond the current 'culture of denial and avoidance ;-) > > > >1/ You could be thinking about it? What's there to think about? Whether > > >or not you as a Baha'i want justice in the community? > > > > Don't try to bait me, please. > > What makes the above question 'bait' mate? It is honest, open, simple and > straightforward.......no 'hooks', no secret or hidden agendas.....I want to > know.....so I ask.....you infer something unpalatable or deceptive about the > questions.....you take the time to talk about and around the questions..... > but....in accord with all my previous experience....you do not address or > answer > the questions. > Why? > > Snip > >Of course I want > > justice in the Baha'i community- any sane Baha'i would. That is not to > > say that I think justice is overwhelmingly lacking, but I concede that > > is HAS lacked at times. > > No Baha'i, over a ten year period, has been able to delineate the > 'processes' > (not 'principles') by which Justice is determined and achieved within the > faith. > In those circumstances it must be concluded that any justice achieved has > been the happenstance consequence of 'good luck' and 'good will/intention'. > We have no statistics on outcomes, only the growing number of disillusioned, > disenfranchised and ex Baha'is who object to the absence of fair due > process. > Why equivocate, why not act? > > >Don't presume that I haven't thought about it- > > I don't, I presume-on the basis of your posts- that there is something > more that needs to be known or determined or some passage of time > that needs to transpire before some basic action can take place. > I reject all the rationales, excuses, explanations and justifications that I > have heard thus far. > > > I am also investigating on my own, to make sure that my thoughts are > > valid. I go at my own pace. And forgive me if it *sounds* insulting, > > but I'm not likely to take anyone else's word for anything without > > backchecking their info- that includes you, so posting anecdotes of > > other people's experiences is mere conjecture to me... heresay. > > Then I invite you to rely upon and examine no more than the administrative > procedure handbooks themselves....there you will find no reference to > the basics of fair due process. That is not 'conjecture' or 'hearsay'...that > is > examination of determinable facts. There is nothing in the Baha'i procedures > that ensures the provision of a fair hearing. > > > >2/ You agree with the majority of what I posted? Hmmmmmm;-)? > > > > Agreement is not necessarily to be equated with belief. I agree that > > there *might* be potential for the Baha'i AO to blunder unjustly- > > which, I believe, is at the heart of your concerns... > > No, that is not the "heart of my concerns". It is far from a case of *might* > be "potential" for the AO to "blunder unjustly"....It is that in the absence > of due process the AO *must* and unavoidably *has* blundered *repeatedly*. > How could it possibly be otherwise? > You might as well tell me that a Surgeon who never follows the procedure of > washing his hands or instruments before operating *might* expose *some* > patients > to infection. I don't care how well intentioned or prayerful he might > be....no > sane/modern person would.....it is dangerous neglect....pure and > simple....and the > cause of hearty and reasonable concern. > > >not that the AO > > *has* been unjust so much that it might become more so if things don't > > change or at least get acknowledged. Of course, I understand your > > concern that the AO *has* been unjust in the past- who wouldn't be?- > > but each case is unique and should be looked at with a spiritually > > discerning eye. > > With all the respect and restraint I can muster.....this is bunk, piffle, > crap. > I cannot express sufficiently my dismay and disgust for the propensity > of Baha'is to invoke 'Spiritual Principles' in response to the absence > of 'Procedural Safeguards'. It is offensive in the extreme. > In the past I have gone so far as to deem such behavior as constituting > no more than 'Spiritual Masturbation' and I do so again here. > > Here is the "core" of my concern....played out again as it has been so many > countless times before....I speak to you of broad fair due process-and you > evoke > the need for a case specific "spiritually discerning eye". > There in a nutshell is the core of 'Baha'iThink'...."if there is something > wrong it > must be a 'spiritual' problem requiring a 'spiritual' investigation and the > application > of an individual 'spiritual' solution...................SPIRITUAL > MASTURBATION. > > From day one, years ago, when I first experienced a serious unsubstantiated > allegation from a fellow Baha'i...found myself surrounded by 'spiritual > people' > who embraced 'quietude' in the face of abuse of a fellow member....found > myself denied the opportunity to respond to the allegation...found my self > in > a community that immediately reached for the 'spiritual solution' and > invited > all, aggressor and victim, to "Hold hands and visualize the purifying white > light of the love of God".......................and then watch the abuse > take place > again...............and again. > > I hold the application of such 'spirituality', then and now, to be > contemptible. > > >To make blanket accusations, that the Baha'i AO is > > categorically unjust, is an unjust statement in and of itself, IMHO. > > There is a fine line between what I agree with and what I believe. > > Again......I never made such a 'blanket accusation' and I am prompted > to wonder why you might have abundant time and energy to respond to > statements that I have not made and so little time for the questions I have > asked? > I state, 'categorically' that there is nothing within Baha'i procedures to > ensure basic fair due process. That renders the pursuit of justice to be > a matter subject to chance and good intentions....any organization operating > on such a basis can only be described as derelict in its duty of care. > > > > >3/ Somebody beat you to the punch? I must have blinked....who, has ever, > > >responded to the issue and clearly delineated due process? > > > > I told you already, that I have no answer for that question as I am > > unqualified. That should suffice, should it not? Who knows what > > someone else's answer might be in the future? All I can tell you is > > what *I* know- and I know that I can't answer that question. In > > regards to due process, I am abdicating any supposition on what should > > be done in favor of more educated minds. Perhaps YOU could answer it > > better than I. > > And I have already answered that question....and....ignored as it is, time > and > again....I invite any 'sane' Baha'i to turn their 'spiritual eye' to the > obvious absence > of procedures that would ensure fair due process AND BEGIN TO ACTIVELY > ADVOCATE THEIR IMPLEMENTATION!!!! > Starting with...."No Baha'i shall be subject to an unsubstantiated > allegation or be > denied the opportunity to know the nature or origin of a charge nor denied > the > opportunity to a fair and open hearing". > > These basics require no more than the *will* to implement... > That will is obviously absent. > > > > >> Do not mistake silence for ingorance. > > > > > >I don't, in this context I take it to be rudeness. > > > > It is nice to know that there are people out there who can judge, from > > silence, the intentions of another person's mind. > > As I advised Rick....my assessments and predictions are based on observed > behavior not on psychic ability. The pattern of denial, silence, obfuscation > and platitude is, as far as I am concerned,.......rude. > > > Perhaps your crystal > > ball isn't as broken as you think. When I am rude, you'll know it- > > it'll be as clear as day-glo. > > Have you considered the possibility that you have already been rude > and that 'you' did not know it? > Can you endeavor to grasp just how offensive the notion of "turning > a spiritual eye" to a basic procedural issue is? Is it conceivable, that > in the context of this issue and discussion and in the light of the prior > objections, to utter and evoke the 'spiritual eye' is a denial of Baha' u' > llahs > call to 'Justice'?.............Potentially as 'insulting' as a response > could be? > > > >If I am called out or over to discuss an issue and, having engaged the > > >subject, > > >simply turn away without word or explanation....I would consider that > > >a lapse in good manners and a failure of intellectual integrity. > > >(At least Rick tells me he is going to cut and run before he does > so....then > > >he will even come back to tell me he is going to do it again;-) > > > > It's refreshing to meet someone who doesn't always want the last word. > > I never requested the "last word"....I would have been content with > advisement > of other obligations or the end of conversation. > > > But, sometimes, you should be grateful for it. Furthermore, you've > > given me food for thought. Let me chew on it and stop rushing me! You > > don't want me to get the spiritual/mental equivalent to acid > > indigestion, do you? > > Yes.....I want your, and every Baha'is, gut to burn with righteous > indignation > and outrage. People are leaving the faith almost as fast as they come > in...often > as a consequence of the absence of basic justice procedures. > HURRY UP.......there is no reason to delay or time to waste. > > > >>Silence CAN be thoughtful. > > > > > >In the context of this discussion...am I to take it that the Baha'i > > >community > > >has been 'thinking' about whether or not it wants the procedures that > will > > >facilitate justice for over two decades?!?......For it has certainly been > > >'silent' > > >on the issue;-) > > > > No. In the context of MY reply, you are to take it that *I* prefer to > > remain silent when I have nothing to respond with. I am not perfect in > > this, but I do not like to engage in discussions when I KNOW what I > > *don't* know. I can't answer what's on the mind of the entire Baha'i > > community, or the AO- I'm simply not that perceptive. I'm all for > > justice, man, but I cannot mete out justice on the scale which would > > suit you because I am one amongst many. > > "Mete out justice on the scale which would suit me"? Again we are dealing, > not with what I have said, but with what is 'projected' upon what I have > said. > I would be satisfied if I could find 'one' Baha'i....in the community or on > the net > ...who would take a stand for or active role in the implementation of the > 'basics' > that precede the dispensing of justice. > "One amongst many"? Jay.....each 'one' I speak to is reflective of the > 'whole body' > in common preparedness to evocke the 'spiritual' in place of the practicle, > pragmatic > and essential. > (What do Baha'is do when their car runs out of petrol? Pray for mobility > none the less?;-) > > > >Silence CAN be thoughtful. It CAN also be rude, evasive, a sign of > > >embarrassment, > > >intellectual and moral defeat and confusion. > > > > It's all a matter of perspective- yours or mine... and I'm kinda > > partial. Attribute whatever views you wish to me, but in the end only > > I know what's going on with me. Judge not, lest ye be judged. > > I 'judge' the inadequacy and dysfunction of current procedures, I 'judge' > the collective denial, silence, obfuscation and platitude, I 'judge' each > individual response to be either reflective of the culture of denial or > indicative > of a desire for change, a fair go and justice. Thus far I have found no > Baha'is > active and satisfied within the faith who are prepared to seriously take on > board the need for reform or willing to advocate same. Yet many on the > fringe, inactive or ex who hold the issue to be obvious, urgent and > consistently > denied from within. I 'judge' that to be a matter of profound sorrow. > > > >If the sudden silence is never preceded or followed by an > explanation....who > > >would > > >know?;-) > > > > I dunno. Next time, try asking politely and you might get an answer. > > This is not to say that you haven't asked me politely... you haven't > > asked me at all, before now. You merely drew your own conclusions > > about me and my thoughts before being armed with information about me. > > Did I? Or did I offer a range of potential explanations for and readings of > the absence of response? Did I draw a conclusion about you or have you > extrapolated that from the 'potential range'? Feel free to cite;-) > > The last word is yours;-) > > Rod. > > > It is not my responsibility to tell you what's going on in my own head > > ALL the time- and it's not your right to know all the time, either. > > But if you'll ask, I'll generally answer- especially if I am able. If > > I don't respond fast enough for you, it's safe to ask me why. > > > > Jay > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 7:25 AM Subject: bahai - in Perfectly Good Standing - BIGS Despite the slander of many fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, I have been a member of the bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my main bahai page. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. The reason the uhj allows and encourages fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to backbite and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet, and elsewhere may be discovered in the four messages below: To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/UHJ72498.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/uhj12-10-99.htm Open Petition for Baha'i Reformation February 8, 2001 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/Reformation.htm My Request Not to Receive the American Bahai 1996 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/index.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 7:26 AM Subject: bahai - "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." In 1996 my request to the circulation department for the American Bahai, repeated twice and perhaps a third time, read, "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." I had torn off the preprinted address change label regularly published on the back page of the American Bahai and mailed it into the address given for subscription changes. I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be removed from the mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, no threat, etc.... Dermod Ryder's speculation that willingness to receive the American Bahai has become compulsory should give pause.... Again, note well, I used the address on the back of the American Bahai given specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write the nsa, its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the simplest of requests: remove my name and address from your mailing list. Not a word or suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith, nor any criticism of it whatsoever, real nor implied. I conveyed my wishes to the proper address, as announced in the American Bahai itself. That I received a response back from an entirely different address speaks volumes, as they say. After six years, I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. I've scanned the letter so others might read the original. I am not about to accept the slander and backbiting of fanatics and fundamentalists nor allow them to provoke me into one action or another. I prefer the facts: Again, I declared my belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976 and notified the nsa, who sent me back the declaration card available on my homepage. I have never notified them otherwise. They, as distinguished from liars and sycophants online, have never notified me to the contrary. Scanned orignials at https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm The other two letters were related to the Detroit local spiritual assembly and its junk mail. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 7:27 AM Subject: bahai - Baha'u'llah is the Prophet of God for mankind in this day Baha'u'llah is the Prophet of God for mankind in this day and age. He Himself laid the foundation for the Universal House of Justice, hampered, thank God, though it be, by the loss of the Guardian. I trust that, in the long run of history, He will not leave his institution to itself but will lead it back, through perhaps the compelling Vision of his Writings and the devoted consciences of his followers, to its humble, modest, and balanced role as his legislative body. I have never repudiated my belief in Baha'u'llah nor the legitimacy of his institutions. That some benighted individual bahais have temporarily distorted the bahai faith into a hideous form of fanaticism and fundamentalism does not negate the Truth of his Revelation and its saving grace for this nihilistic desert. https://fglaysher.com/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 7:28 AM Subject: bahai - My crossposts to soc.culture.israel, soc.culture.iranian, and talk.religion.misc My crossposts to soc.culture.israel, soc.culture.iranian, and talk.religion.misc are entirely within the acceptable parameters for crossposting to newsgroups related to the subject at hand: The bahai faith *began* in Iran in 1844, the major bahai religious sites and institutions are *located* in HAIFA *Israel*, *all* religions may join discussion on talk.religion.misc. The unsuspecting public ought to be informed and have the opportunity to judge and decide the facts for itself. It should be evident to any intelligent person that bahai fundamentalists have a hidden agenda and their self-interest in mind when they malign me and many, many other people on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet.org, and elsewhere. Since fundamentalists among my fellow bahais have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere, and the Internet now no longer makes that possible, as dramatically demonstrated with the former USSR and China, the "universal" house of "justice," like other totalitarian regimes, will have to confront and answer for the consequences of its own hypocrisy. Slandering me for "spamming" also won't prevent perceptive people from realizing what's really going on.... Those interested in judging independently for themselves my background and whether I'm "unbalanced," as bahai fundamentalist struggle to portray me, may do so by reading my Biographical Note: https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm I believe it is my duty, bahai and otherwise, to inform my fellow citizens, local and global, of the appalling and incessant hypocrisy that lies behind the deceptively progressive facade that the uhj regularly fobs off on the unsuspecting public.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 7:29 AM Subject: bahai - After over five years of observing the tactics of bahai fundamentalists, After over five years of observing the tactics of bahai fundamentalists, I've learnt a few things about the way they operate: 1. Always smear and attack the individual. 2. Lure into supposed discussion then cut the jugular. 3. Work together to create the perception for non-bahais that the individual is unbalanced, aberrant, etc.... 4. Change or ignore the subject. 5. Shift to the past and argue over who said what, when, where, how, etc.... As long as the uhj uses "review" to suppress all free thought and discussion and encourages such unseemly tactics, attempting to discuss anything with them is simply a waste of time and energy. I have many interests in life. Documenting bahai fundamentalism is only one of them. Many people other than myself have noted "The Bahai Technique": https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm Nobody has to read my reposts who has done so already. My Message Rules are full of fundamentalists. Others may use the same technology to filter out my reposts.They're intended for the uninformed.... Anyone interested in my views may read them in my archives or glean them from my reposts, which, in my view, preserve the historical record of how low bahai fanatics have been willing to go.... I can only hope by serving humbly, as the self-appointed archivist/historian for talk.religion.bahai and for all the many victims of the "universal" house of "justice," that someday someone will come along who will dig deep enough into the record so that the truth will begin to surface. Impartial nonbahai observers might wish to compare and decide for themselves whether the picture fundamentalists labor so hard to paint of me is accurate or not: https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm And then ask yourself why would they go to such extremes? What is it they don't want you to know? I submit the answers may be found on my bahai webpages.... It is my hope that the distortions of the uhj will begin to be purged, it will gradually reform itself, acknowledging the broad and liberal Teachings of Baha'u'llah that it has suppressed now for so long..... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 9:18 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Board Posting at Baha'i Message Board <> AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among our fellow bahais to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... The bahai community leader is harassing me trying to suppress all knowledge and discussion about the major lawsuit against the bahai faith recently filed in New Mexico. Please ask him to desist. This volunteer leader regularly abuses his position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom he and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views he opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... A clear example of the way AOL is manipulated and freedom of speech and conscience are regularly DAMAGED by AOL's indulgence. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 9:18 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Board Posting at Baha'i Message Board <> AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among our fellow bahais to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... The bahai community leader is harassing me trying to suppress all knowledge and discussion about the major lawsuit against the bahai faith recently filed in New Mexico. Please ask him to desist. This volunteer leader regularly abuses his position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom he and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views he opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... A clear example of the way AOL is manipulated and freedom of speech and conscience are regularly DAMAGED by AOL's indulgence. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 7:08 AM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Despite the slander of many fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, I have been a member of the bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my main bahai page. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. The reason the uhj allows and encourages fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to backbite and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet, and elsewhere may be discovered in the four messages below: To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/UHJ72498.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/uhj12-10-99.htm Open Petition for Baha'i Reformation February 8, 2001 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/Reformation.htm My Request Not to Receive the American Bahai 1996 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/nsa1996.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/index.htm "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109170654.561bec43@posting.google.com... > "Randy Burns" wrote in message news:... > > You've been calling him for at least two years on this. Why don't you just > > killfile the guy and ignore him? If he gets to you, why is that? > > > > Randy > > > Randy, > > The only thing I have ever done to Fred in the past two years is to > point out that he is not a Baha'i in good standing as he claims to be. > This outburst was the result of an anger that I have felt since > September 11th. Fred went too far. Maybe I went to far too, but that > does not excuse Fred. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 7:17 AM Subject: Re: An Apology to Fred You're a deceitful, contemptible liar.... The uhj is little better than the terrorists. Sad fact, sad fact.... Having betrayed the moderation articulated in the Writings.... All equally applicable to fundamentalists like you among my fellow bahais.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109170951.60e04762@posting.google.com... > Fred, > > After some careful thought I wish to apologize for the harsh language > and tone of my recent posts. I was speaking from a place of anger and > used words that showed neither tact nor wisdom. > > I am sorry. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 7:24 AM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet So you want to malign, slander, and harass people with impunity, concealing your treachery from the eyes of honest, decent men and women.... "The Bahai Technique": https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109170723.48366d0f@posting.google.com... > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:<9nviii$9oik9$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de>... > > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/hate15.htm > > > Fred, > > You do not have my permission to reproduce that post. You are > violating my copyright and you must remove it from your website or you > will be hearing from my lawyer. > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 1:16 PM Subject: Re: An Apology to Fred As far as I'm concerned, you're no better than a terrorists who destroyed the WTC. Conscienceless creatures.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ------- Little Better Than the Terrorists fglaysher 9/14/01 7:51 AM 1 out of 2 Sad fact, sad fact.... Having betrayed the moderation articulated in the Writings.... fglaysher ----------------------------------- To: Fred From: the white hot ball of anger in my gut. In the past you were just a pain. I welcomed your voice as proof that the First Amendment works. I never did agree with you but that is the way of this world. I never wanted you to go away. You are the negative to the Baha'i positive. Not now. Not after that comment above. You are a fucking asshole. You are a egomaniacal sociopathic shit head of the highest order. This is not character assasination because you have no character to assassinate. You are worthless. How dare you compare people who are at this moment gathering their resources to help rescue their fellow world citizens from the twited wreckage left in the wake of that horrifically evil deed. Baha'is in NYC and in New Jersey have gone to Manhatten to volunteer. Others are gathering goods and money for the tough task of recovery. Baha'is are working to heal the wounds. All you want to do is inflict more pain. You are evil. You are a fucking coward. You make me sick. "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109180857.58a86be0@posting.google.com... > Fred, > > I apologized. Whether you accept it or not is up to you. My conscience is clear. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 1:20 PM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet You're a deceitful liar. And basically a bahai terrorist, at that.... Every person on trb can be subpeoned and required to testify that you have been harassing and hounding me for years.... Now that you have been unequivocally caught at it you want to hide the evidence.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ------ Little Better Than the Terrorists fglaysher 9/14/01 7:51 AM 1 out of 2 Sad fact, sad fact.... Having betrayed the moderation articulated in the Writings.... fglaysher ----------------------------------- To: Fred From: the white hot ball of anger in my gut. In the past you were just a pain. I welcomed your voice as proof that the First Amendment works. I never did agree with you but that is the way of this world. I never wanted you to go away. You are the negative to the Baha'i positive. Not now. Not after that comment above. You are a fucking asshole. You are a egomaniacal sociopathic shit head of the highest order. This is not character assasination because you have no character to assassinate. You are worthless. How dare you compare people who are at this moment gathering their resources to help rescue their fellow world citizens from the twited wreckage left in the wake of that horrifically evil deed. Baha'is in NYC and in New Jersey have gone to Manhatten to volunteer. Others are gathering goods and money for the tough task of recovery. Baha'is are working to heal the wounds. All you want to do is inflict more pain. You are evil. You are a fucking coward. You make me sick. Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postn ews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: bighappymonkey@yahoo.com (Dave Fiorito) Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai Subject: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Date: 14 Sep 2001 11:01:38 -0700 Organization: https://groups.google.com/ Lines: 43 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.145.1.40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1000490499 26370 127.0.0.1 (14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.religion.bahai:7159 talk.religion.bahai:27665 "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109180901.3483529f@posting.google.com... > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:<9o7ass$bgmpi$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de>... > > So you want to malign, slander, and harass people with impunity, > > concealing your treachery from the eyes of honest, decent men and > > women.... > > > Fred, > > If they want to see it they can come here and read it for themselves. > I published that post here and did not give you permission to post it. > > Besides, I have already apologized for that post and you wont publish > that on your site either so take the post down - you are violating my > legal rights. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 7:17 AM Subject: Re: Rod's due process thread In addition to below, be sure to see FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuit.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Charles" wrote in message news:3BA80DF7.6049B8BF@mindspring.com... > Yes, I would agree, but also am listenning for dissenting opinions. > > The major purpose of this thread is to officially say that "some Baha'i" has actually > addressed his issues with due process. > > I am waiting for some indication that what is so far posted has been read before i spend any > more time on it... > > regards, > chas > > Dave Fiorito wrote: > > > Charles wrote in message news:<3BA5AAF9.3B75DB2@mindspring.com>... > > > > > > > > > so, the question for tomorrow can be, when they are handled poorly, is > > > that an indictment against due process in the Faith, or just a screw up that > > > wasn't taken to the next level? > > > > I believe that there is clear evidence that most of the "poorly > > handled" incidents boil down to inperfect execution of the system. > > They usually have a gap in process. > > > > I believe that the design of the system is _not_ flawed. Its > > execution, however, is not always so perfect. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Dave > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 7:20 AM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Dermod, I agree with your comments. I would add stalking to the list, since bahais do it both ON and OFF line.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9o8jqd$bnmsa$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > > "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message > news:f0853486.0109181342.305d46cc@posting.google.com... > Dave, > > > How does any of this constitute > > "hounding" or even come close to an act of terror on the scale of the > > events of September 11th? > > Lived with terrorism this thirty years past, none of which, fortunately, was > on a scale comparable with the events of 11 September. It was and is still > terrorism however! It need not involve killing to be terrorism - it just > has to be the threat of violence or some other measure designed to terrorise > a individual or society into accepting a circumstance or set of values that > it would not otherwise accept. Something like threatening a BIGs with being > declared a Covenant Breaker, with all of the social penalties that entails, > because he doesn't toe the party line. > > Dermod. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 7:24 AM Subject: Re: An Apology to Fred You're a deceitful liar. And basically a bahai terrorist, at that.... Every person on trb can be subpeoned and required to testify that you have been harassing, hounding, and stalking me for years.... Now that you have been unequivocally caught at it you want to hide the evidence.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ------ Little Better Than the Terrorists fglaysher 9/14/01 7:51 AM 1 out of 2 Sad fact, sad fact.... Having betrayed the moderation articulated in the Writings.... fglaysher ----------------------------------- Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postn ews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: bighappymonkey@yahoo.com (Dave Fiorito) Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai Subject: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Date: 14 Sep 2001 11:01:38 -0700 Organization: https://groups.google.com/ Lines: 43 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.145.1.40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1000490499 26370 127.0.0.1 (14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.religion.bahai:7159 talk.religion.bahai:27665 To: Fred From: the white hot ball of anger in my gut. In the past you were just a pain. I welcomed your voice as proof that the First Amendment works. I never did agree with you but that is the way of this world. I never wanted you to go away. You are the negative to the Baha'i positive. Not now. Not after that comment above. You are a fucking asshole. You are a egomaniacal sociopathic shit head of the highest order. This is not character assasination because you have no character to assassinate. You are worthless. How dare you compare people who are at this moment gathering their resources to help rescue their fellow world citizens from the twited wreckage left in the wake of that horrifically evil deed. Baha'is in NYC and in New Jersey have gone to Manhatten to volunteer. Others are gathering goods and money for the tough task of recovery. Baha'is are working to heal the wounds. All you want to do is inflict more pain. You are evil. You are a fucking coward. You make me sick. "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109181316.7ce32ad1@posting.google.com... > Fred, > > I apologized because my conscience was not at rest. I spoke in anger > and that bothered me. > > So how am I like a terrorist if I apologize for the use of harsh > language? > > Sheesh, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 7:28 AM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109181109.71d5aaef@posting.google.com... > > So who do Baha'is hate? How is it possible that the Baha'i Faith > could be used to justify a killing of any kind? I need more then > rhetorical opinion - I need to see a clear path from what the Baha'i > Faith is now to the wild accusations being thrown around here. You're a deceitful liar. And basically a bahai terrorist, at that.... Every person on trb can be subpeoned and required to testify that you have been harassing, hounding, and stalking me for years.... How typical that once you've been unequivocally caught at it you want to hide the evidence.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ------ Little Better Than the Terrorists fglaysher 9/14/01 7:51 AM 1 out of 2 Sad fact, sad fact.... Having betrayed the moderation articulated in the Writings.... fglaysher ----------------------------------- Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postn ews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: bighappymonkey@yahoo.com (Dave Fiorito) Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai Subject: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Date: 14 Sep 2001 11:01:38 -0700 Organization: https://groups.google.com/ Lines: 43 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.145.1.40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1000490499 26370 127.0.0.1 (14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.religion.bahai:7159 talk.religion.bahai:27665 To: Fred From: the white hot ball of anger in my gut. In the past you were just a pain. I welcomed your voice as proof that the First Amendment works. I never did agree with you but that is the way of this world. I never wanted you to go away. You are the negative to the Baha'i positive. Not now. Not after that comment above. You are a fucking asshole. You are a egomaniacal sociopathic shit head of the highest order. This is not character assasination because you have no character to assassinate. You are worthless. How dare you compare people who are at this moment gathering their resources to help rescue their fellow world citizens from the twited wreckage left in the wake of that horrifically evil deed. Baha'is in NYC and in New Jersey have gone to Manhatten to volunteer. Others are gathering goods and money for the tough task of recovery. Baha'is are working to heal the wounds. All you want to do is inflict more pain. You are evil. You are a fucking coward. You make me sick. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 7:30 AM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet You're a deceitful liar. And basically a bahai terrorist, at that.... Every person on trb can be subpeoned and required to testify that you have been harassing, hounding, and stalking me for years.... Now that you have been unequivocally caught at it you want to hide the evidence.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ------ Little Better Than the Terrorists fglaysher 9/14/01 7:51 AM 1 out of 2 Sad fact, sad fact.... Having betrayed the moderation articulated in the Writings.... fglaysher ----------------------------------- Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postn ews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: bighappymonkey@yahoo.com (Dave Fiorito) Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai Subject: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Date: 14 Sep 2001 11:01:38 -0700 Organization: https://groups.google.com/ Lines: 43 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.145.1.40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1000490499 26370 127.0.0.1 (14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.religion.bahai:7159 talk.religion.bahai:27665 To: Fred From: the white hot ball of anger in my gut. In the past you were just a pain. I welcomed your voice as proof that the First Amendment works. I never did agree with you but that is the way of this world. I never wanted you to go away. You are the negative to the Baha'i positive. Not now. Not after that comment above. You are a fucking asshole. You are a egomaniacal sociopathic shit head of the highest order. This is not character assasination because you have no character to assassinate. You are worthless. How dare you compare people who are at this moment gathering their resources to help rescue their fellow world citizens from the twited wreckage left in the wake of that horrifically evil deed. Baha'is in NYC and in New Jersey have gone to Manhatten to volunteer. Others are gathering goods and money for the tough task of recovery. Baha'is are working to heal the wounds. All you want to do is inflict more pain. You are evil. You are a fucking coward. You make me sick. "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109180901.3483529f@posting.google.com... > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:<9o7ass$bgmpi$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de>... > > So you want to malign, slander, and harass people with impunity, > > concealing your treachery from the eyes of honest, decent men and > > women.... > > > Fred, > > If they want to see it they can come here and read it for themselves. > I published that post here and did not give you permission to post it. > > Besides, I have already apologized for that post and you wont publish > that on your site either so take the post down - you are violating my > legal rights. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 7:31 AM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet You're a deceitful liar too. And basically a bahai terrorist, at that.... Every person on trb can be subpeoned and required to testify that you have been harassing, hounding, and stalking me for years.... Now that you have been unequivocally caught at it you want to hide the evidence.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ------ Little Better Than the Terrorists fglaysher 9/14/01 7:51 AM 1 out of 2 Sad fact, sad fact.... Having betrayed the moderation articulated in the Writings.... fglaysher ----------------------------------- Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postn ews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: bighappymonkey@yahoo.com (Dave Fiorito) Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai Subject: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Date: 14 Sep 2001 11:01:38 -0700 Organization: https://groups.google.com/ Lines: 43 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.145.1.40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1000490499 26370 127.0.0.1 (14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.religion.bahai:7159 talk.religion.bahai:27665 To: Fred From: the white hot ball of anger in my gut. In the past you were just a pain. I welcomed your voice as proof that the First Amendment works. I never did agree with you but that is the way of this world. I never wanted you to go away. You are the negative to the Baha'i positive. Not now. Not after that comment above. You are a fucking asshole. You are a egomaniacal sociopathic shit head of the highest order. This is not character assasination because you have no character to assassinate. You are worthless. How dare you compare people who are at this moment gathering their resources to help rescue their fellow world citizens from the twited wreckage left in the wake of that horrifically evil deed. Baha'is in NYC and in New Jersey have gone to Manhatten to volunteer. Others are gathering goods and money for the tough task of recovery. Baha'is are working to heal the wounds. All you want to do is inflict more pain. You are evil. You are a fucking coward. You make me sick. "NightShadow" wrote in message news:3ba6396e.28556672@news... > Are the postings gone yet, Fred? > > If not, I'd recommend that you contact your lawyer immediately and let > him know that someone is about to sue you for violating their > copyright. And make no mistake, the header of a Usenet post CAN and IS > considered a legal copyright stamp. It has the time, date and name of > the person who posted it- and that's all that is required by the > copyright office in the US. > > Forget about calling the NSA *now*, Fred. Call your lawyer. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 7:32 AM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet You're a deceitful liar. And basically a bahai terrorist, at that.... Every person on trb can be subpeoned and required to testify that you have been harassing, hounding, and stalking me for years.... Now that you have been unequivocally caught at it you want to hide the evidence.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ------ Little Better Than the Terrorists fglaysher 9/14/01 7:51 AM 1 out of 2 Sad fact, sad fact.... Having betrayed the moderation articulated in the Writings.... fglaysher ----------------------------------- Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postn ews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: bighappymonkey@yahoo.com (Dave Fiorito) Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai Subject: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Date: 14 Sep 2001 11:01:38 -0700 Organization: https://groups.google.com/ Lines: 43 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.145.1.40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1000490499 26370 127.0.0.1 (14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.religion.bahai:7159 talk.religion.bahai:27665 To: Fred From: the white hot ball of anger in my gut. In the past you were just a pain. I welcomed your voice as proof that the First Amendment works. I never did agree with you but that is the way of this world. I never wanted you to go away. You are the negative to the Baha'i positive. Not now. Not after that comment above. You are a fucking asshole. You are a egomaniacal sociopathic shit head of the highest order. This is not character assasination because you have no character to assassinate. You are worthless. How dare you compare people who are at this moment gathering their resources to help rescue their fellow world citizens from the twited wreckage left in the wake of that horrifically evil deed. Baha'is in NYC and in New Jersey have gone to Manhatten to volunteer. Others are gathering goods and money for the tough task of recovery. Baha'is are working to heal the wounds. All you want to do is inflict more pain. You are evil. You are a fucking coward. You make me sick. "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109181342.305d46cc@posting.google.com... > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:<9o7vnf$bn2jm$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de>... > > You're a deceitful liar. And basically a bahai terrorist, > > at that.... Every person on trb can be subpeoned and > > required to testify that you have been harassing and > > hounding me for years.... Now that you have been > > unequivocally caught at it you want to hide the evidence.... > > > Hide what? The post is in the usenet archives. Anyone can access it > at any time they want. I published it there and that is where it will > stay. Unfortunately you decided to post it on your site. That is a > copyright violation. I am meeting with my lawyer later this week. If > you want to avoid taking on a lawyer of your own I suggest you simply > remove the post. Heck - I have already apologized for it anyway. > > And who has been harassing you? Me? Hardly. You made a claim here > and elsewhere that you are a Baha'i in good standing. Fair enough but > I wanted to verify that claim. Turns out that you are not a Baha'i in > good standing per the National Office of the Baha'is of the USA. The > NSA has invalidated your membership as per the statement on the back > of your card. in spite of these facts you still claim membership in > the Baha'i Faith. You use that claim to help validate all of your > other claims. I am simply pointing out that your continued insistance > that you are a Baha'i is not supported by the objective truth which is > that you were removed from the membership rolls in February of 1999. > That is a fact. You can confirm it for yourself if you want to. > > As for being caught hounding you? Come on. I said some very harsh > things to which I have apologized. How does any of this constitute > "hounding" or even come close to an act of terror on the scale of the > events of September 11th? > > Answer: they don't. Not even close. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 7:33 AM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet You're a deceitful liar. And basically a bahai terrorist, at that.... Every person on trb can be subpeoned and required to testify that you have been harassing, hounding, and stalking me for years.... Now that you have been unequivocally caught at it you want to hide the evidence.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ------ Little Better Than the Terrorists fglaysher 9/14/01 7:51 AM 1 out of 2 Sad fact, sad fact.... Having betrayed the moderation articulated in the Writings.... fglaysher ----------------------------------- Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postn ews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: bighappymonkey@yahoo.com (Dave Fiorito) Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai Subject: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Date: 14 Sep 2001 11:01:38 -0700 Organization: https://groups.google.com/ Lines: 43 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.145.1.40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1000490499 26370 127.0.0.1 (14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.religion.bahai:7159 talk.religion.bahai:27665 To: Fred From: the white hot ball of anger in my gut. In the past you were just a pain. I welcomed your voice as proof that the First Amendment works. I never did agree with you but that is the way of this world. I never wanted you to go away. You are the negative to the Baha'i positive. Not now. Not after that comment above. You are a fucking asshole. You are a egomaniacal sociopathic shit head of the highest order. This is not character assasination because you have no character to assassinate. You are worthless. How dare you compare people who are at this moment gathering their resources to help rescue their fellow world citizens from the twited wreckage left in the wake of that horrifically evil deed. Baha'is in NYC and in New Jersey have gone to Manhatten to volunteer. Others are gathering goods and money for the tough task of recovery. Baha'is are working to heal the wounds. All you want to do is inflict more pain. You are evil. You are a fucking coward. You make me sick. "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109181056.1f10b991@posting.google.com... > No dodge Rod. Baha'u'llah said: > > "It is incumbent upon the Trustees of the House of Justice to take > counsel together regarding those things which have not outwardly been > revealed in the Book, and to enforce that which is agreeable to them. > God will verily inspire them with whatsoever He willeth, and He, > verily, is the Provider, the Omniscient." > > -- Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh p.68 > > > Baha'u'llah gave the UHJ the right to "enforce that which is agreeable > to them". We know from the Hidden Words that justice is the key: > > "O SON OF SPIRIT! > > The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away > therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide > in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through > the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not > through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how > it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the > sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes." > > > Baha'u'llah goes further to say that justice and God's Law are one and > the same: > > "Know verily that the essence of justice and the source thereof are > both embodied in the ordinances prescribed by Him Who is the > Manifestation of the Self of God amongst men, if ye be of them that > recognize this truth. He doth verily incarnate the highest, the > infallible standard of justice unto all creation. Were His law to be > such as to strike terror into the hearts of all that are in heaven and > on earth, that law is naught but manifest justice. The fears and > agitation which the revelation of this law provokes in men's hearts > should indeed be likened to the cries of the suckling babe weaned from > his mother's milk, if ye be of them that perceive. Were men to > discover the motivating purpose of God's Revelation, they would > assuredly cast away their fears, and, with hearts filled with > gratitude, rejoice with exceeding gladness." > > -- Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh p.175 > > > Due process in the Baha'i Revelation is embodied in the operation of > the consultative body and its adherence to Baha'i law which is "the > essence of justice". Furthermore an individual has the right to > appeal the decisions of the LSA to the NSA, and of the NSA to the UHJ. > The UHJ is the final arbiter though the individual is free to consult > with them on their decisions. > > So under Baha'i law there is indeed due process in the Baha'i Faith. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 7:44 AM Subject: Juan Cole - Respecting the Conscience of Man - review Modernity and the Millennium by Juan Ricardo Cole Columbia Univ Pr (available on Amazon) In his conclusion, which would never have passed the system of censorship, "Bahai review," that the UHJ imposes on all publications brought out under its tight control, Professor Cole, of the Department of History at the University of Michigan, quite accurately identifies the distortions that have been wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings: "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriarchy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed." (196) Cole himself and many others have suffered at the hands of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the religion: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement." (201) These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai on Usenet for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. Both my and Cole's websites provide essential documentation along these lines. It should be noted that the Universal House of Justice has actively worked through the BCCA (Bahai Computer and Communications Association) to suppress all links to websites with other than its own "comprehensive" point of view on such major portals as Yahoo.com, Excite.com, and other search engines. The UHJ has gone even further by advising Bahais to remove any link whatsoever to Professor Cole's website. As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. The UHJ is also in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums of public discussion. Professor Cole's Modernity and the Millennium will remain, for many years to come, the most important book available on the Baha'i Faith. His discussion of its historical development within the intellectual milieu of progressive 19th Century thought is particularly brilliant and insightful. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 11:05 AM Subject: Re: Rod's due process thread Closely related to a lack of due process is the similar lack of any balance of power in the bahai faith.... There is no one or body to whom an appeal for due process can even be made.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Curious" wrote in message news:e81q7.500$cu4.33076@ozemail.com.au... > > Dave Fiorito wrote in message > news:f0853486.0109181325.79d68a0e@posting.google.com... > > Charles wrote in message > news:<3BA5AAF9.3B75DB2@mindspring.com>... > > > > > > > > > so, the question for tomorrow can be, when they are handled poorly, > is > > > that an indictment against due process in the Faith, or just a screw up > that > > > wasn't taken to the next level? > > > > > > I believe that there is clear evidence that most of the "poorly > > handled" incidents boil down to inperfect execution of the system. > > They usually have a gap in process. > > Yea......A BLOODY BIG GAP IN THE PLACE THE DUE PROCESS > SHOULD BE;-) > > > I believe that the design of the system is _not_ flawed. Its > > execution, however, is not always so perfect. > > TO RIGHT DAVE!!! WE HAVE FAILED TO IMPLEMENT ABDUL > BAHAS INSTRUCTION TO *EXECUTE* DUE PROCESS! > > Nice to see you come on the Masters side mate;-) > > Rod. > > > Cheers, > > > > Dave > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 11:07 AM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet You're a deceitful liar. And basically a bahai terrorist, at that.... Every person on trb can be subpeoned and required to testify that you have been harassing, hounding, and stalking me for years.... Now that you have been unequivocally caught at it you want to hide the evidence.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ------ Little Better Than the Terrorists fglaysher 9/14/01 7:51 AM 1 out of 2 Sad fact, sad fact.... Having betrayed the moderation articulated in the Writings.... fglaysher ----------------------------------- Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postn ews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: bighappymonkey@yahoo.com (Dave Fiorito) Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai Subject: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Date: 14 Sep 2001 11:01:38 -0700 Organization: https://groups.google.com/ Lines: 43 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.145.1.40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1000490499 26370 127.0.0.1 (14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.religion.bahai:7159 talk.religion.bahai:27665 To: Fred From: the white hot ball of anger in my gut. In the past you were just a pain. I welcomed your voice as proof that the First Amendment works. I never did agree with you but that is the way of this world. I never wanted you to go away. You are the negative to the Baha'i positive. Not now. Not after that comment above. You are a fucking asshole. You are a egomaniacal sociopathic shit head of the highest order. This is not character assasination because you have no character to assassinate. You are worthless. How dare you compare people who are at this moment gathering their resources to help rescue their fellow world citizens from the twited wreckage left in the wake of that horrifically evil deed. Baha'is in NYC and in New Jersey have gone to Manhatten to volunteer. Others are gathering goods and money for the tough task of recovery. Baha'is are working to heal the wounds. All you want to do is inflict more pain. You are evil. You are a fucking coward. You make me sick. "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109190629.2f671fa1@posting.google.com... > "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:<9o8jqd$bnmsa$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de>... > > > Something like threatening a BIGs with being declared a Covenant Breaker, > > with all of the social penalties that entails, because he doesn't toe the > > party line. > > > Dermod, > > Have I ever done that? No. So I'll ask again - how have I ever > "terrorized" Fred - or anyone for that matter. Is there anything - > even in _that_ post - That was a threat? Hardly. So apart from > pointing out the fact that Fred is not, as he claims, a Baha'i in good > standing and getting hyper angry at him once (for which I have > apologized) what have I ever done that constituted "terrorism"? > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 11:11 AM Subject: bahai - Terrorism and On- Offline Stalking Nima, After twenty-five years as a member of the bahai faith, I see *little* difference between the basic underlying fanaticism of the perpetrators of the WTC terrorist attack and the fundamentalism of the worst elements among my fellow bahais. You're entitled to your view. I to mine. I cite Dave Fiortio's intolerant, threatening hate mail as further EVIDENCE, along with much of the documentation on my website. In my view, only the uhj can begin to remedy this situation by abolishing the censorship of "review" and ceasing to interpret out of existence of the moderate and liberal Teachings on free speech and conscience, thereby by setting a new direction and tone for the faith. Realism requires me to acknowledge it's very unlikely ever to happen.... I consider it my duty, as a bahai and otherwise, to inform my fellow believers and citizens of how grave matters truly stand within what purports to be Baha'u'llah's religion. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:9oc5va$eu8$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > Fred, > > While I think the Baha'is are acting their usual pathetic, snotty, > self-righteous, arrogant little selves, your timing however is absolutely > terrible. Don't use one of the biggest tragedies in human history to be in > these people's faces about something unrelated. Baha'i fundamentalism and > ramming commercial airpliners into skyscrapers, wreaking total physical > destruction upon a populated city, taking out some 5000+ innocent people and > leaving their families, relatives and friends to pick up the pieces DO NOT > begin to compare. Terrorists, such as those affiliated with Bin Laden's > al-Qa'ida network, are merciless, bloodthirsty, obscene, crazed, disturbed, > callous ultra-fundamentalist religious biggot fanatics with no absolutely no > regard whatsoever for human life, friend or foe. They and people like them > are lower than vermin; maggots are on a higher evolutionary scale than they. > > Please stop your comparison which is even beginning to sound offensive to > me. I lost two good friends last week in the WTC attack. Two friends who are > not replaceable. > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:9o9vje$bkcuf$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... You're a deceitful liar. And basically a bahai terrorist, at that.... Every person on trb can be subpeoned and required to testify that you have been harassing, hounding, and stalking me for years.... Now that you have been unequivocally caught at it you want to hide the evidence.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ------ Little Better Than the Terrorists fglaysher 9/14/01 7:51 AM 1 out of 2 Sad fact, sad fact.... Having betrayed the moderation articulated in the Writings.... fglaysher ----------------------------------- Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postn ews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: bighappymonkey@yahoo.com (Dave Fiorito) Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai Subject: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Date: 14 Sep 2001 11:01:38 -0700 Organization: https://groups.google.com/ Lines: 43 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.145.1.40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1000490499 26370 127.0.0.1 (14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.religion.bahai:7159 talk.religion.bahai:27665 To: Fred From: the white hot ball of anger in my gut. In the past you were just a pain. I welcomed your voice as proof that the First Amendment works. I never did agree with you but that is the way of this world. I never wanted you to go away. You are the negative to the Baha'i positive. Not now. Not after that comment above. You are a fucking asshole. You are a egomaniacal sociopathic shit head of the highest order. This is not character assasination because you have no character to assassinate. You are worthless. How dare you compare people who are at this moment gathering their resources to help rescue their fellow world citizens from the twited wreckage left in the wake of that horrifically evil deed. Baha'is in NYC and in New Jersey have gone to Manhatten to volunteer. Others are gathering goods and money for the tough task of recovery. Baha'is are working to heal the wounds. All you want to do is inflict more pain. You are evil. You are a fucking coward. You make me sick. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 11:20 AM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Dermod, I thank you again for your honesty and courage in speaking out. As you realize, the newcomers who peek in here really won't have a clue to understanding what's really going on, which the fundamentalists always rely on and take advantage of. Never thought of myself as an "avid counter terrorist" but take it as an honorific given these grim days.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9ob5gv$c3drb$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > > "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message > news:f0853486.0109190629.2f671fa1@posting.google.com... > > "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message > news:<9o8jqd$bnmsa$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de>... > > > > > Something like threatening a BIGs with being declared a Covenant > Breaker, > > > with all of the social penalties that entails, because he doesn't toe > the > > > party line. > > > > > > Dermod, > > > > Have I ever done that? No. So I'll ask again - how have I ever > > "terrorized" Fred - or anyone for that matter. Is there anything - > > even in _that_ post - That was a threat? Hardly. So apart from > > pointing out the fact that Fred is not, as he claims, a Baha'i in good > > standing and getting hyper angry at him once (for which I have > > apologized) what have I ever done that constituted "terrorism"? > > Firstly I did not accuse you of threatening to call anybody a CB. So I > could conclude the tone of your post above is an attempt to intimidate me > into withdrawing what I said. That is a form of terrorism. But I won't > accuse you of terrorism - just note that control of the temper is a must for > any form of reasoned discourse. BTW I can understand why many Americans are > upset this past week - without wishing to seem arrogant, I've been through > this same type of experience on many occasions many years ago. I know it and > know how to cope with and overcome it. You get on with your normal life for > that is the greatest spurning you can give the terrorist - the knowledge > that he has not succeeded in terrorising you. > > Fred is not the most liked or admired person on TRB - BIGS just don't like > and really get their knickers in a knot over him. I have to ask why this > is? It's not because of nastiness - after all nobody tackled me for telling > Evensong to "fuck off" or giving the same message to Miss Maddy - it was > actually a toss-up as to which of them would be told to "fuck off" but > Evensong won because he is obnoxious whilst Maddy is just a buffoon. But > then everybody knows that Evensong and Maddy are nasty arseholes and > therefore, nobody cares if they are told where to go, by me or anybody else. > > But all of you BIGS really give Fred the "Hate Week" treatment - these past > few days have seen threats of litigation, something, incidentally of which I > thought there was general agreement that it was a subject to which none > would stoop. And then Eureka! I realised why Fred gets the treatment he > does - his spamming and his website are a threat to the AO, a clear and > present danger, for Fred has painstakingly not only assembled the evidence > of the canker within but he constantly publicises it to the extent that he > really gets up noses and AO noses at that! Worst of all, however is that > Fred is uncontrollable - he's a true mad dog in your eyes and you don't know > how to deal with him. > > Now BIGS idolise the love bomb technique but never use it on Fred for he's > immune. He knows the system intimately and he knows how to counteract with > pithy comments advising you all to pith off! > > I basically agree with him that the AO terrorises people - terror is more > than bombs or kamikaze aircraft. A whispered aside in the right > circumstances can instil terror (like a threat to be made a CB) - most > ethnic cleansing is carried out by a piece of "good" advice to the effect > that one would be better off NOT living in this neighbourhood, from a > gentleman who is known or assumed to have the "right connections" to ensure > the advice is heeded. Twenty years ago the AO tried that particular > threatening tactic on with me and were told where they could stick it! > Others can also testify to that including Dennis Rogers whose experiences > were posted on TRB recently. And you guys hate Fred for this, for his > continued exposing of the sewer that the AO has become. Of course you all > hate Juan, Alison, Michael, Nima etc as well and for the same reason and > give them the same treatment but somewhat reduced for they don't post as > much as Fred who is just a real pain in the butt for doing what he does so > well! > > Fred is an avid counter terrorist and he's good at it as the whimpering from > the BIGS proves! > > As ever, > > Dermod. > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 11:25 AM Subject: Re: bahai - After over five years of observing the tactics of bahai fundamentalists, "Curious" wrote in message news:yslq7.1222$cu4.71509@ozemail.com.au... > > What passes for judicial process within the Baha'i community.... > IS NO DIFFERENT TO WHAT BAHA'U'LLAH HIMSELF ENCOUNTERED. What a terrible and painful truth.... The Teachings of the Wrong One hamstrung and traduced by despicable fanatics who deny others the most basic requirements of justice and humane treatment.... Curious, incidentally, can you configure your newsread so that all your lines don't wrap? It might just require clicking and dragging your email box in the lower right hand corner to a larger size. I don't want to miss any of your posts! Thanks. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 1:16 PM Subject: Re: A Seeker's Guide to Baha'i-related Newsgroups and Discussion Sites - MANY Persons Views SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI: Robert J. Pease, December 5, 1998: "I support your efforts to expose SRB as a fundamentalist group." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb84.htm Ron House: "I think the following is a clear case of malicious rejection of an article by the worst of the moderators of soc.religion.bahai." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb53.htm Timothy Mulligan: "(Sigh) Fred, I'm beginning to think you're right about those SRB moderators." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb59.htm RobertNik: "these guys are pompous arseholes IMHO." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb54.htm Bruce Burrill: "What are Baha'i afraid of?" https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb60.htm Zuteflute: "Frankly I could not see anything in the letter I wrote which would prompt someone to ask whether or not I am a Baha'i." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb50.htm YU ZIR: "But as an outsider, I can perhaps see the point Fred Glaysher is making, and which point none of SRB's defenders seem to address." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb46.htm Matthew Cromer: "The current moderators regulate the contents--posting articles which they agree with...." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb47.htm Kavosh Soltani, December 9, 1998:"So many Bahais on these forumshave shown to be ready to forget logic and reason, ignore clear evidence and Word of God, and come up with exactly the same line of tired and inaccurate excuses and arguments to justify their position, that it can not be a simple coincidence." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb77.htm Shakti3, December 4, 1998: "Sorry to hear that you've been surpressed on srb. Your comments were alway very "right on." Altho it does not surprise me one bit, seeing the way these newsgroups operate." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Ex7.htm Harold Shinsato: "It seems like there is an oppression over the Baha'i Faith." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb33.htm Steve Tomljenovic, December 3, 1998: "The moderators are a bit overzealous at times. Since all the controversy started, it has gotten worse." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb79.htm Laeterna: "To say I was flabberghasted at this type of "moderating" was putting it mildly indeed." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/censored2.htm Robin Peters: "I think you're to be commended for your persistence in the face of consistent censorship." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb43.htm jgoldberg: "I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. " https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb57.htm Ruletherod, November 17, 1998: "Too much damage has already been done in the name and to the name of Baha'u'llah by right-wing administrative bullies, linear-thinking apologists, and doctrinaire-fundamentalists. You can't just blame it all on the critics." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb76.htm Many other similar messages may be found on my web site under soc.religion.bahai censorship. https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb.htm -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 1:18 PM Subject: Re: This is Bahai? I'm afraid it is.... You might be even more shocked if you take a moment and skim the more than decade-long evidence compiled on my website. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ wrote in message news:3baa3565.10720275@news-server.austin.rr.com... > Let me begin by stateing up front that I am not Bahai. I was > introduced to the Bahai faith several years ago by a couple I found > very admirable and devout Bahai. From them I learned much about the > principles and beliefs of the Bahai and though I chose not to join I > gained great respect and admiration for the group. Since losing > contact with these fine people I have not had any further exposure to > the Bahai except learning of the persecution that happened in Iran. > This news group was my rediscovery. I am shocked ! Never have I seen > so much hate, vindictiveness and viciousness in a group since > alt.society.afganistan. I am amazed, these are not the people I came > to respect and admire. > There seems to be major power struggles going on within the Bahai > faith. It appears members are being ex communicated for disagreeing > with church leaders. It seems there are continuous lawsuits over Bahai > assets. > Is this what has happened to the Bahai faith? This is nothing at all > like I saw and learned a few years ago. What has happened and what is > going on? ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 1:20 PM Subject: Good Riddance.... You're not fooling anybody by self-righeteously pretending to be the victim. And, no matter how many fellow fundamentalists of yours chime in, intelligent observers who even glance at the record will realize what's really going on, which is precisely what you and other fanatics fear.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Roger Reini" wrote in message news:DfipO1f6JDTTW8TOmoWzLrP3eKkw@4ax.com... > I think NightShadow is right. These newsgroups have degenerated to > the point where they are no longer of value to me. For me, I think > they've become, in the words of the Universal House of Justice, > "spiritually corrosive." > > I've published a new update of A Seeker's Guide to Baha'i-related > Newsgroups; in it, I encourage seekers to avoid ARB and TRB. > > For those of you I leave behind: go ahead and gloat. Laugh and > ridicule me all you want. I no longer care about your opinions. I > will find other fora in which to teach the Faith. > > Perhaps I'll come back someday; maybe I won't. Who knows? > > Roger (roger@rreini.com) > https://www.rreini.com/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 1:32 PM Subject: Re: Rod's due process thread "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109200733.383e593e@posting.google.com... > > Then contact the UHJ and respectfully request their assistance. Or > involve a Continental Councelor. > Deborah Buchhorn tried all that as painstakingly recount in her New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001: https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuit.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm All of which is only to be expected in an administrative system that has no mechanisms for due process and the balance of power.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 1:35 PM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet "The Bahai Technique": https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109200703.42b05993@posting.google.com... > Dermod, > > I am sorry that you have to live with terrorism day in and day out. > But with all due respect your analysis of Fred as anti-AO hero is > about as accurate as the characterisation of bin laden as a hero of > Islam. > > I do not fear Fred. The AO does not fear Fred. I have sent seekers > to his website and they have always come back to me saying that this > guy has a big chip on his shoulder and is obviously out to smear the > Baha'is. His website is not a collection of evidence. Have you ever > seen the film 12 Angry Men? Fred is like the juror who goes on a > racist tirade and all of the other jurors turn away. He no longer is > taken seriously because of the obvious bias and spite he shows. That > is what Fred's site is all about and folks see right through it. > > People get pissed at Fred because he claims to be a Baha'i and them > procedes to insult the Faith in the most venomous way possible. > > I got angry at hime because the events of September 11th make all > other acts of terrorism ever perpetrated look like minor events - > sidebars of history. I do not wish to diminish the effects of > terrorism in Northern Ireland but what we have just witnessed makes > the troubles look tame. > > Close to 6000 killed scores more injured and even more traumatized. > > The Hudson River may flood the entire NY subway system. > > Billions of dollars in damage. > > The US economy may enter a deep recesion which would bring the world > deeper into economic crisis. > > A war may start that kills millions all over the world. > > Many companies are going bankrupt. > > And you and Fred compare all of that to what the Baha'is do? Come on. > Leave your hate for Baha'is aside for a moment and look at what you > are saying and ask youself if you are thinking any clearer than the > Islamist school masters in Afghanistan who have taught their students > that the events of Sept. 11th were a "satanic Jewish conspiracy to > turn America against Islam and the Arab brotherhood". > > You and Fred sound like those mullahs. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 7:02 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Terrorism and On- Offline Stalking After twenty-five years as a member of the bahai faith, I see *little* difference between the basic underlying fanaticism of the perpetrators of the WTC terrorist attack and the fundamentalism of the worst elements among my fellow bahais. You're entitled to your view. I to mine. I cite Dave Fiortio's intolerant, threatening hate mail as further EVIDENCE, along with much of the documentation on my website. In my view, only the uhj can begin to remedy this situation by abolishing the censorship of "review" and ceasing to interpret out of existence of the moderate and liberal Teachings on free speech and conscience, thereby by setting a new direction and tone for the faith. Realism requires me to acknowledge it's very unlikely ever to happen.... I consider it my duty, as a bahai and otherwise, to inform my fellow believers and citizens of how grave matters truly stand within what purports to be Baha'u'llah's religion. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:9odpfr$1b1$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > > >After twenty-five years as a member of the bahai faith, > >I see *little* difference between the basic underlying fanaticism > >of the perpetrators of the WTC terrorist attack and the > >fundamentalism of the worst elements among my fellow bahais. > > Then you have a lot to learn. In the eternal words of Paul McCartney, "Let > it Be!" > > cheers, > Nima > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 7:07 AM Subject: Re: Good Riddance.... Who do you think you're kidding? Reini has pulled this trick repeatedly since 1997, stomping off in a self-righteous huff, duping the non-bahais who happen along here with no sense of the history of talk.religion.bahai.... He'll come back preening like a peacock.... Just as deceitful as ever. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 9:35 AM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Ad hominem. No subtance. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109210903.10294a0c@posting.google.com... > "Curious" wrote in message news:... > > > > Why can't you guys read what Fred has compiled as a potentially valuable > > resource bank of things that have and do go wrong within the community > > and seek to make corrections rather than enemies? > > Why do you think I read his site? But it ain't evidence. He takes > everything out of context and does not show anyone what happened later > on in some of those threads. > > To find out what is wrong with the community I would much rather talk > to Karen. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 9:36 AM Subject: Re: bahai - After over five years of observing the tactics of bahai fundamentalists, Ad hominem. No subtance. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109210848.17fc10ed@posting.google.com... > "Curious" wrote in message news:... > > > > > Demonstrate that there is an obvious need for procedural change and I > > > will agree with you. > > > > From the NSA Australia, 18, Nov 1998... > > "The Universal House of Justice has emphasized the need for the Institutions > > of the Faith to refine their capabilities in administering justice and > > conscious of this challenge the National Assembly will endeavor to deal with > > similar issues with much more urgency by reviewing its policies and practices > > in relation to such matters". > > > > There ya go....the UHJ is convinced....the NSA is committed...what's your > > problem?;-) > > No problem. Thank you for sharing. Now you must realize that you > can't go from zero to the speed of light instantaneously. > > > Mine is that for all the demonstrated and recognized need at an > > institutional level......nothing has been done.......1998, still waiting. > > So write to the NSA with that quote and ask them what progress they > have made. > > > This aside, how do you expect me to 'demonstrate' that procedural change > > to insure the right of an individual Baha'i to know the basis of an > > allegation brought against them and be availed of the opportunity to defend? > > You might as well invite me to demonstrate that fish need water or that > > humans require air........it is obvious, inescapable, undeniable....due > > process is essential to justice and the Baha'i community lacks due process. > > I think you are confusing due process with the rules and regulations > of parlimentary procedure. Due process exists in the Baha'i Faith but > strict rules governing LSA deliberations do not. The former is > welcome the latter may develop in time but as in the other thread you > can see that the rules need to be culturally relative. > > > > > > 7.Plead 'Individual' and/or 'Institutional' immaturity as a failsafe > > > > spin to avoid the obvious need for 'Procedural' change. > > > > > > The institutions and individuals in the Baha'i Faith have not yet > > > reached a satisfactory level of maturity yet. We are still in the > > > process of understanding just what it means to be on an LSA or to be a > > > Baha'i for that matter. Wea are learning but we are not there yet. > > > > How old/mature does an institution/community have to be > > to know that secret investigations, concealed charges and the denial > > of a fair hearing are profoundly dysfunctional and destructive practices? > > Since none of those exist in the Baha'i community, outside of a few > rare instances that should never have happened in the first place, > this is not relevant. > > > > > I suggest that the call for procedural change is short-sighted. Until > > > we have understood the guidence we currently have how can we know what > > > changes are appropriate? > > > > You cannot know just how offensive what you are putting forward is. > > What kind of 'vision' accepts that members of a community of faith can > > be the subject of serious allegations-and not be appraised of this, be > > subject to a 'discrete'(secret) investigation-and not be informed of this, > > become aware of these proceedings-and not be granted the opportunity > > to defend themselves, be subject to administrative sanction-and not > > told why. > > Your LSA screwed up. If they had followed the existing guidence not > of that would have happened. > > > "how can we know what changes are appropriate"? how about starting > > with just the basics? Those elements generally considered fundamental > > to the pursuit of justice...appraisal of the charges and the right to > > defend. How about implementing those basics that will minimize pain, > > suffering and injustice and maximize the pursuit of truth....or..... > > All of that is already in the guidence for the functioning of an LSA. > > > HOW ABOUT CONSIDERING AND IMPLEMENTING ALL THOSE > > BASICS OF JUSTICE THAT THE BLESSED BEAUTY WAS DENIED. > > Like I said - your LSA screwed up. No need to call for reform when > what is really needed is for them to learn the right way to do things > from the guidence that already exists. > > > STARTING WITH *A FAIR AND OPEN HEARING*. > > That is not a part of the Baha'i system. Consultation is a part of > the system and if it was used properly you wouldn't be shouting at me. > > > > > 8. As with 7- variant...."Everything will be ok when the troops arrive". > > > > > > Absolutely. If we had more Baha'is we would have more folks to share > > > the work. We would also have more funds to tend to the material needs > > > of the Cause. We could actually afford to make our NSAs and LSAs > > > fulltime positions and have real training for them. > > > > Great, we have a workplace with unguarded machinery, people are getting > > hurt and leaving, the directors have recognized the problem and instructed > > regional management to review OH&S, years later nothing has been done, > > people are still getting seriously hurt and leaving......but the solution is > > to get masses of new people onto the factory floor..........right. > > Yes. The task you are talking about requires a larger body to draw > from. It requires more dedicated souls to share in the work so that > the folks on the LSA are not also the folks who tend to do everything > else in the community. The work is being done by a handful of people. > Why not deepen on the guidence on consultation and help to train your > LSA? > > > > > > 9. Decline discussion of an issue on the basis of insufficient time then > > > > come straight back to engage in puerile ad hom. > > > > > > Please give a concrete example of that. > > > > Rick Shauts, Cut and run Rick thread. > > Read it - don't agree with you. > > > > > > 10. Attribute the responsibility for recommended changes to the AO or > > > > UHJ when in fact those bodies have already made it a Local responsibility. > > > > > > Explain - with quotes from the UHJ. > > > > See 6 (Or Abdul Baha's 'Second' condition for True Consultation...Paraphrasing > > instruction to LSAs-"Lay down guide lines and by-laws" = Due Process. > > Can you get me a refference for the quote from Abdu'l-Baha. > > > > > 11. Do anything....and I mean ANYTHING.....to avoid, obscure or deny the > > > > fact that there is no fair due process within the Baha'i community, no > > > > interest in fair due process within the Baha'i community, no > > > > understanding of fair due process within the Baha'i community. > > > > > > I have said this before and will likely need to repeat it again - > > > their is due process as defined by Baha'u'llah. > > > > So you keep saying and no doubt you will repeat it...but you have not, > > once, as yet, shown me anything that even looked remotely like a definition > > of due process from Baha'u'llah. There is a great deal He left up to us and > > empowered the institutions to create and impliment- due process is 'one' > > of those things......THAT TASK HAS NOT BEEN UNDERTAKEN. > > Again. See my statement in the other thread about cultural > relativism. > > > > My challenge to you is to demonstrate - from the works of Baha'u'llah and > > > Abdu'l-Baha - how we have not kept to their vision of due process. > > > > Sure....TAKE THEM ALL! > > > What passes for judicial process within the Baha'i community.... > > IS NO DIFFERENT TO WHAT BAHA'U'LLAH HIMSELF ENCOUNTERED. > > That is not what I am looking for. I ahve given you plenty of example > of where I think due process is present in the Writings. If you see > it there too then share with all of us the quotes that you feel we > have overlooked. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 9:36 AM Subject: Re: Rod's due process thread Ad hominem. No subtance. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109210557.653e493c@posting.google.com... > Yeah, she tried. What she sent one letter? If things were as bad as > she makes it sound I would be on the phone everyday until I got an > answer. > > Sheesh. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Rod's due process thread "The Bahai Technique": https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109191304.d71625c@posting.google.com... > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:<9oac6r$br16j$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de>... > > Closely related to a lack of due process is the similar > > lack of any balance of power in the bahai faith.... > > > > There is no one or body to whom an appeal for due process > > can even be made.... > > > If the disagreement is with an LSA appeal to the NSA. > > If the disagreement is with an NSA appeal to the UHJ. > > The UHJ is the final arbiter so if the problem is with them you may > consult with them but that is the end of the line - as it should be. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 9:37 AM Subject: Re: This is Bahai? Ad hominem. No substance. "The Bahai Technique": https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109210821.6a94484b@posting.google.com... > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:<9od8c1$boflj$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de>... > > I'm afraid it is.... You might be even more shocked if you take > > a moment and skim the more than decade-long evidence > > compiled on my website. > > > What's really shocking is that you have had nothing better to do for > the last 10 years. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 9:37 AM Subject: Re: A Seeker's Guide to Baha'i-related Newsgroups and Discussion Sites - MANY Persons Views Ad hominem. No substance. "The Bahai Technique": https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109210817.169995b3@posting.google.com... > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:<9od87q$ce7h7$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de>... > > SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI: > > yada, yada, yada .. > > in brief Fred is upset because soc.religion.bahai does not allow spam ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 9:38 AM Subject: Re: Good Riddance.... Ad hominem. No substance. "The Bahai Technique": https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109210820.2472ba68@posting.google.com... > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:<9od8fh$c15th$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de>... > > You're not fooling anybody by self-righeteously pretending to be > > the victim. And, no matter how many fellow fundamentalists of yours > > chime in, intelligent observers who even glance at the record will realize > > what's really going on, which is precisely what you and other fanatics > > fear.... > > > Such kindness, such sympathy ... > > I think I feel a tear coming on ... sniff > > Sheesh, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 9:38 AM Subject: Re: Impact of Fred's website and efforts Ad hominem. No substance. "The Bahai Technique": https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109211315.ab77b7f@posting.google.com... > The internet is rapidly acquiring the reputation for being a very > unreliable source of information. Quantity can not substitute for > quality. You can find every shade of opinion on the net. That does > not make them all valid. > > I have sent several seekers to Fred's site. They read it and walked > away with a bad taste in their mouth. Not about the Baha'i Faith but > about Fred. They have seen the Baha'i Community close up and none of > the posts on Fred's site related to their experience with the Baha'is. > > Fred is a single voice. He is a confrontational voice. His methods > have driven many people away from him. So I hope he keeps talking > because it will only make the experiences people have with the Baha'is > seem that much better. > > Fred's impact in my view has been positive because he is the negative > to the Baha'i positive. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 7:52 AM Subject: Re: Rod's due process thread Rod wrote: >The Baha'i community is a family in denial, systematic abuse occurs, there >is no due process. That's certainly my take and experience of it. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Curious" wrote in message news:5ihr7.2404$cu4.174762@ozemail.com.au... > "Curious" wrote in message > news:... > > Dave Fiorito wrote in message > > news:f0853486.0109191304.d71625c@posting.google.com... > > > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" > > wrote in message news:<9oac6r$br16j$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de>... > > > > Closely related to a lack of due process is the similar > > > > lack of any balance of power in the bahai faith.... > > > > > > > > There is no one or body to whom an appeal for due process > > > > can even be made.... > > > > > > > > > If the disagreement is with an LSA appeal to the NSA. > > > > Done, NSA promised to look into procedures/due process-THREE > > YEARS AGO............*nothing* has happened. > > So remind them, lovingly, that you are burdened and in need of relief. > I remind you, lovingly, that the Baha'i faith is burdened with a culture > of denial. You present as an exemplar of that culture. > > Snip > > The UHJ cannot and will not in the future remain the arbiter of conflicts > and > > disputes that ought be resolved at the local level. The LSA's must be > > empowered with efficient and fair processes to resolve these issues > > with 'appeals' going to an NSA *ALSO* empowered with basic fair due > process. > > "All of these instituions are already empowered to resolve local > conflicts with fair due process." > > No. They are instructed, empowered and responsible for the implementation of > Fair due process. The failure to implement due process cannot be addressed > until > The reasons and underlying causes for its denial have been examined and > understood. > This prerequisite involves discomfort and pain, uncertainty and doubt..Baha' > is in general > will not accept or confront such experiences. Denial is a primary tool for > the avoidance > of change/discomfort/pain/uncertainty...better (consciously or > subconsciously) to > maintain the façade that "all is well..there is no problem..it's just a > stage" etc. > > There are many things I know very little about. I have few realms of > 'expertise'. > I work with street kids (I know a lot about Judicial systems and fair due > process). > I work with dysfunctional families (I know a lot about the dynamics of abuse > and denial). > > The Baha'i community is a family in denial, systematic abuse occurs, there > is no due process. > > > > " They may just not know how to go > about doing it. It is a process of education and learning through > experience. In the meantime there is always appeal." > > They do not want to know. You do not want to know. > The issue is consistently met with outrage, hostility, platitudes, > misunderstanding, > obfuscation, denial and circular arguments of the most absurd and offensive > proportions.. "THERE IS NO DUE PROCESS.consultation is due process. > I AM DENIED CONSULTATIVE DUE PROCESS..appeal..THERE IS NO > RESPONSE TO APPEAL.appeal again...STILL NO RESPONSE.keep trying > appeal for consultation on the absence of an effective appeals process...." > > > So......If there is a screaming need at local level, longstanding > > unfulfilled promises to meet that need at a national level and instruction > > from the UHJ to the NSA to get on with it.............AND NOTHING HAS > > HAPPENED.... > > "Then contact the UHJ and respectfully request their assistance. Or > involve a Continental Councelor". > > > It is an absurdity to expect GMH Head Office USA to become involve in minor > but essential repairs to my vehicle here in country Victoria, Australia. > > Confronted with a parallel situation within the faith, armed with the > knowledge > that 'Head Office' has already issued instructions to National Office, > knowing > that there has been no follow up or follow through..the 'problem' does not > reside with the UHJ nor does the resolution. Change will not occur, locally, > regionally or Nationally until the broad Baha'I community/family becomes > *more > uncomfortable with the pain of denial* than they are with the *prospective > pain > of examination and change*. > > We are pain avoiding creatures. Examining our Behaviour as a > collective/community > Of faith will be a painful experience. We will attempt to avoid it until we > can do so > No longer. > > > We are not dealing with a functioning (or simply immature) system.....we > are > > dealing with a broad 'culture of denial'. > > "I disagree". > You deny there is denial?;-) Surprise, Surprise. > > > " We are dealing with average people who have no training > trying to fill a role that they no little or nothing about. LSAs are > immature. We are very far from their eventual role as the Local House > of Justice." > > Fiorito..You have just most eloquently confirmed my argument. > "people who have no training trying to fill a role that they no little or > nothing about" > This is precisely what I am referring to. You do not 'experiment' in > Marriage Guidance Counselling, nor do 'see how you go' Conflict Resolution. > No more than any sane or decent person would attempt Surgery without > training and an understanding of due process. To attempt these roles in > ignorance, > armed with no more than good faith and good intentions is abhorrent. To > excuse > the attempt with disclaimers of Institutional/Individual immaturity or > insufficirnt > people and training is to DENY recognition of the damage that is being done > to > peoples lives and faith. If you are not equipped to perform these tasks of > immense > responsibility, not trained or prepared, not cognizant with the basics of > due process. > THEN SOD OFF UNTILL YOU ARE. > And stop trying to DENY the inadequacies of Baha'i procedures or the > ineptitude > of those enacting them. > > > > > Nothing could be more reflective of that culture of denial that the posts > of > > Baha'i apologists in this, and other, ng's. > > "Yes, some people look at the Baha'i Faith with rose colored glasses. > I do not. I see that there are problems" - > > You, pink lenses, have just devoted countless words in a string of posts > attempting > to argue that "Consultation=Due Process"..setting the blatant inadequacies > of that > rosy proposition aside for one moment- One is confronted with the 'reality' > that there > is * no guarantee of accessing * consultation and if you do get it "no > guarantee that > you will be provided with an opportunity to speak*.. > THAT, Fiorito, was the core and original grievance..all your Rose colored > theory > about due process being "intrinsically imbedded" in the word "be" and the > principle > of consultation isn't worth Jack Shit. There remains no due process to > ensure access > to consultation. > > " but complaining about them > will not help. If you need relief then you must keep persistant > preasure on the NSA and the UHJ to correct the problem". > > I have devoted a great deal of time to the study of the writings, study of > the AO handbooks, > Study of the Institutions and the dynamics of the Baha'i community. > I do not believe that the UHJ or NSA has the problem or is the problem. > I maintain that the Baha'i community operates from a broad cultural basis > Of denial. I hold that your posts exemplify, reflect and perfectly > illustrate this culture of denial. > > > > " To solve your > difficulty will take action on your part. You can rage against the > machine all you want and it won't get you anywhere". > I am engaged in the most productive and appropriate 'action' right now Dave. > Some (like NightShadow, Rick Shauts etc) simply rant, rave then cut and run. > Others (like Charles) will initially misunderstand then settle into reasoned > debate, > open minded exploration of the issues, give and take. Charles is secure in > his faith, > not afraid to recognize or concede its deficits or dysfunctions. > You Dave, fall in the middle, for you the 'faith is fine', no problems other > than the > 'inevitable and unavoidable'- immaturity, lack of people and > expertise, -needs time, > patience, nothing can or should be done now, has to be this way because of > cultural > diversity, due process is right there in consultation..on and on, round and > round. > loops of denial. > > REALITY..people are leaving the faith Dave. > In some cases/places they are leaving as fast or faster than others come in. > > I do not "rage against the machine" Dave..I rage against those who deny the > machine > Needs guards and due process safeguards when decent Baha'is get their faith > ripped off. > > Rod > > > ---------- From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 7:52 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Board Posting at Bahai Message Board <> AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among our fellow bahais to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... The bahai community leader is harassing me trying to suppress all knowledge and discussion about the major lawsuit against the bahai faith recently filed in New Mexico. Please ask him to desist. This volunteer leader regularly abuses his position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom he and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views he opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... A clear example of the way AOL is manipulated and freedom of speech and conscience are regularly DAMAGED by AOL's indulgence. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: Glayshf@aol.com[SMTP:Glayshf@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 7:53 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Board Posting at Baha'i Message Board <> AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among our fellow bahais to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... The bahai community leader is harassing me trying to suppress all knowledge and discussion about the major lawsuit against the bahai faith recently filed in New Mexico. Please ask him to desist. This volunteer leader regularly abuses his position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom he and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views he opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... A clear example of the way AOL is manipulated and freedom of speech and conscience are regularly DAMAGED by AOL's indulgence. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 7:55 AM Subject: WARNING - bahai fundamentalism There's quite a lot of it on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai, as usual. The non-bahai observer might want to proceed with caution. Distinguishing appearance from reality in bahai cyberspace is especially difficult. I suggest you judge for yourself by becoming acquainted with a wide variety of views on my and Prof. Cole's bahai websites. Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, surveys the many incidents of bahai censorship that have taken place during the last few decades in "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 7:57 AM Subject: bahai - Fundamentlalist censorship on AOL For the same tactics as are used on AOL in everyday bahai community, see FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm In addition to the evidence below, further documentation of bahai fundamentalist censorship on AOL may be found at https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AOL.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AOLcensorship.txt Actual messages from the AOL bahai "community leader" as recent as June 2001: https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/cAOL.htm -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/index.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 7:59 AM Subject: Please feel free to download and store these archives for study by future Bahai scholars. Please feel free to download and store these archives for study by future Bahai scholars. All Archives Below Combined in One Searchable 25 megabyte Text File to 7-31-2000 Or Entire Website: BahaiCensorship.Zip 17 megabytes 6/25/01 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/archive.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 8:01 AM Subject: bahai - Terrorism & Off- Online Stalking bahai - Terrorism & Off- Online Stalking Some of the evidence may be found at https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/hate.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/CHarassment.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/BahaiThreatsLawsuit.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/BahaiAttacksonme.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AOL.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/Ex.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 8:06 AM Subject: Re: The Bahais and How and why the U. N. must lead in bringing World Trade Center and Pentagon terrorists to justice. In addition to below, be sure to see FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuit.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Lawrence" wrote in message news:ede9c470.0109221924.5788ce2c@posting.google.com... > To prevent the growing possibility of a new regional war an emergency > General Assembly meeting should be immediately called at the United > Nations to vote on resolutions needed to galvanize the world resources > to locate and bring the World Trade Center terrorists to justice. Any > quick and near unilateral US retaliation for the World Trade Center > and Pentagon terrorism could bring regional war and an unprecedented > level of instability into areas that are believed to have biological > or nuclear retaliatory capabilities. This is a serious and real > international security emergency for which the U.N is mandated to lead > and respond. > > In the age of biological and nuclear warfare and, in an effort to > avert the escalating possibility of a new regional war or even world > war the following resolutions should immediately be enacted by the > General Assembly of the UN: > > 1. Authorize the World Court in the Hague to immediately issue > international John Doe arrest warrants for all involved in executing, > planning or supporting the bombings. > 2. Designate the necessary UN peacekeeping forces as authorized agents > of the World Court, the United Nations and the United States to go > anywhere in the world to apprehend all involved in executing, planning > or supporting the bombings. > 3. Ask world governments, police and intelligence agencies to assist > the United Nations and World Court with all resources at their > disposal in discovering the identities of all involved in executing, > planning or supporting the bombings as well as apprehending and > bringing them to immediate trial before the World Court. > 4. Ask all national and international banking organizations to forgo > any secrecy laws and seize and freeze all bank accounts of individuals > or organizations identified as involved in executing, planning or > supporting the bombings and to hold those funds in trust for possible > reparations. > 5. Authorize an immediate and total goods, services, finance, > assistance and communications boycott by the international community > of nations of any country identified as being involved on a > governmental level in executing, planning or supporting the bombings. > 6. Authorize a public statement be made directly to all of the people > of the world asking them as individual nation/world citizens, to > directly assist the United Nations and the World Court. Specifically > ask them to use all resources at their disposal to help in discovering > the identities of all involved in executing, planning or supporting > the bombings and, to assist in apprehending and bringing them to > immediate trial at the World Court. And, to tell their governments to > assist the U.N. and the World Court in this world peace and justice > emergency in every possible way. > 7. Authorize a public statement be made to the clerics and ministers > of world religions asking them to publicly condemn the bombings to > their congregations and, ask their respective congregations to assist > the United Nations and World Court to discover the identities and > bring to justice all involved in the bombings and, to tell their > respective governments to assist the U.N. and the World Court in every > possible way. > 8. Authorize a public invitation be made to the ecclesiastical heads > of all world religions to speak before the UN General Assembly to > express their support for the UN and World Court to lead in bringing > all involved in executing, planning or supporting the bombings to > justice and to encourage the individual nations of the world to fully > support the UN, the World Court through the use of international > co-operation and law. > > We beseech the Secretary-General Of the United Nations Kofi Annan to > immediately make a statement along these lines: > > … The UN peacekeeping role has always been to confront and > defeat the worst in man with the best in man and to counter violence > with tolerance, retaliation with justice, might with moderation and > war with peace. The scope of the imminent US retaliation to the > terrorist bombings is a matter of international justice, peace, and > world security. The UN has the obligation to act as the international > leader to demand an internationally sponsored cooperative justice > action and the pooling of international justice enforcement resources > and avert the possibility of a new war. > > While passions for a quick US retaliation are at their highest, the UN > is additionally obligated to the United States as its host country and > as a Security Council member to bring together all of the resources of > the world to rapidly bring the terrorists before the World Court to > answer for their horrific crimes against all humanity and nations. > Because of the credible possibility that a large-scale military > retaliation dominated by the United States military could quickly > escalate into a war scenario with nuclear and biological > possibilities, the UN is calling an emergency meeting of the General > Assembly of nations to convene as soon as the representatives of the > member nations can convene. > > The United Nations was created over 50 years ago by the nations of the > world to resolve this very type of international security crisis > before it can turn into international war. The UN will have failed its > founding mandate, its member nations and all of humanity at the very > moment of greatest threat if the UN does not act and immediately lead > in the mobilization of the world community to prevent any member > nations from acting individually without first using the mechanisms of > international law and justice. > > In the past the UN has been criticized for too often being relegated > to passive or symbolic roles, but in this international crisis that is > no longer possible. The UN will this day stand firm as the authorized > representative of humanity and for the peace and security of the > international community of nations. It will act in accordance with the > international justice and peacekeeping mandates for which it was > created before the terrorist bombing crisis can escalate into regional > or world war… > ________ > This call for the UN and the World Court to lead is brought to you by > Factnet.org. https://www.factnet.org . Factnet is a non-profit > organization that educates on the destructive effects of fanaticism in > political or religious cults created though systems of mind control. > > This document is intended to provoke public dialogue on civilized and > effective methods for combating destructive terrorism using the rule > of international law and existing international mechanisms designed > specifically for such purposes. As experts on destructive religious > and political fanatics and cults and how they are created, we are > compelled to speak out at this time to do what we can to prevent an > escalation of an inappropriate retaliatory cycle of violence. > > This is because an escalation of an inappropriate retaliatory cycle of > violence against terrorists could first quickly and unintentionally > plunge us into regional or even world war with possibilities of > biological or nuclear retaliation and secondly, would be ineffective > in stopping terrorism or its sympathizers/supporters and their > actions. An inappropriate retaliatory cycle of violence against > terrorists would most likely have the opposite effect of escalating > terrorist activities, terrorist sympathy and terrorist recruitment. > We believe that the United States as the most powerful country in the > world that is guided by and honors the rule of law. We believe that a > horrendous terrorist crime of unprecedented scope in world history has > been committed against the U.S. > > In spite of its proportion we believe that this terrorist act is an > international crime. Because it is first an international crime it > should first be counteracted by the rule of international law. Because > the U.S. is the most powerful leader/nation in the world community it > more than any other member of the U.N. should be willingly to first > use international law and international mechanisms of law before any > U.S. military action takes place. > > Bringing the terrorists to justice within the constraints of > international law and international mechanisms of law enforcement with > a majority co-operation of the nations of the United Nations will > certainly find and justly punish the actual perpetrators of the > terrorism without collateral damage to innocents or the risks of > dragging the world into a regional or world war that could become > biological or nuclear. Allowing the UN to lead the international > justice effort would also not drag the American people and the United > States as a nation down to the level of the terrorist’s lawless, > anger-driven barbarism. > > More importantly, a highly public international Nuremberg like trial > in the World Court using the judges of many nations would not only > insure world acceptance of the justice process and punishment, but > also would educate the world as to how these terrorists were created. > Both this education and the punishment through the process of > international law would do more to help stop new terrorist acts and to > inoculate the peoples of the world against the spread terrorism than > any quick retaliation by the US without the authority and sanction of > the United Nations and international law. > > Apprehension by the UN and World Court and complete public exposure of > the terrorists using the process of international law would also do > more to change the minds, ideas and values of the terrorist’s > sympathizers/supporters or potential new recruits than any escalating > cycle of reciprocating, retaliatory violence. Although slow, difficult > and expensive, international cooperative justice and law is truly the > most powerful tool for the eradication of world terrorism and for the > healing of the victims of terrorism. > > Our sympathy and prayers go out to all the victims of the bombings and > for our world leaders to avert the real possibility of regional or > world war by having the courage and patience to act using co-operative > international justice. We must let less than 20,000 terrorists > worldwide destroy the peace, security and civilized law respecting > behavior of over 6 billion nation/world citizens. > > We must not let the natural and understandable angry reaction to this > horrific international crime by its victims be so dangerous and > outside the existing international legal mechanisms for handling such > a crime that the victims retaliation endangers the survival of every > nation, man, woman and child on earth. The souls of the over 6,300 > victims of this crime of terrorism have already passed into the > experience of the justice, discernment and compassion of the Infinite > Mystery. It is not rational to believe that from their existence in > the realm of the Infinite they would want angered retaliation to > displace justice --- particularly because they themselves were the > victims of an unjust and angered retaliation. > > What you can do now to help avert this potential war before it starts: > > 1. Repost or resend this editorial opinion to your personal email > lists and any international news media or newsgroup for which it is > appropriate as well as to any world government, religious and social > leader or any other organization or individual they feel may have the > influence to assist or empower the UN acting as the leader for > mobilizing international justice mechanisms to avert this crisis. > 2. As a citizen of a UN member nation email Secretary-General Of the > United Nations Kofi Annan at inquiries@un.org and demand that the UN > immediately calls an emergency meeting of the Assembly General to > address the issues of this document. > 3. Translate this document so it can go into foreign speaking > newsgroups worldwide. > > Rationality, the rule of international law as well as widespread > public dialog do have the power to assert and enact co-operative > international justice to avert this international security emergency > and the threat of descending into potentially catastrophic biological > or nuclear regional or world war. ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 8:13 AM To: factnet@rmi.net Subject: Bahai faith - "dedicated to protecting freedom of mind from harms caused by psychological coercion!" You might want to consider the actual record of the Bahai faith during the last decade and add it to your website. See especially the FULL TEXT of the New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuit.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his book published by Columbia UP and in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 8:15 AM To: factnet@rmi.net Subject: Bahai faith - "dedicated to protecting freedom of mind from harms caused by psychological coercion!" You might want to consider the actual record of the Bahai faith during the last decade and add it to your website. See especially the FULL TEXT of the New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuit.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his book published by Columbia UP and in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 8:42 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Terrorism and On- Offline Stalking Fundamentalist prevarication isn't fooling anyone.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ----------------------------------- Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!postn ews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: bighappymonkey@yahoo.com (Dave Fiorito) Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai Subject: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Date: 14 Sep 2001 11:01:38 -0700 Organization: https://groups.google.com/ Lines: 43 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.145.1.40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1000490499 26370 127.0.0.1 (14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2001 18:01:39 GMT Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.religion.bahai:7159 talk.religion.bahai:27665 To: Fred From: the white hot ball of anger in my gut. In the past you were just a pain. I welcomed your voice as proof that the First Amendment works. I never did agree with you but that is the way of this world. I never wanted you to go away. You are the negative to the Baha'i positive. Not now. Not after that comment above. You are a fucking asshole. You are a egomaniacal sociopathic shit head of the highest order. This is not character assasination because you have no character to assassinate. You are worthless. How dare you compare people who are at this moment gathering their resources to help rescue their fellow world citizens from the twited wreckage left in the wake of that horrifically evil deed. Baha'is in NYC and in New Jersey have gone to Manhatten to volunteer. Others are gathering goods and money for the tough task of recovery. Baha'is are working to heal the wounds. All you want to do is inflict more pain. You are evil. You are a fucking coward. You make me sick. "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109210857.760bc609@posting.google.com... > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:<9of6m4$coblu$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de>... > > > I cite Dave Fiortio's intolerant, threatening hate mail as further EVIDENCE, > > Fred, I got mad at you - vented my spleen - felt really bad about it - > then apologized. How is that "evidence" of anything other than the > fact that I got pissed and tried to express my regret for saying what > I said. > > Hmmm? > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 9:14 AM Subject: Abdu'l-Baha on freedom of conscience and speech "The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions." --Abdu'l-Baha ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." --Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- "This is a goodly temple and congregation, for--praise be to God!--this is a house of worship [Central Congregational Church in Brooklyn on 16 June 1912] wherein conscientious opinion has free sway. Every religion and every religious aspiration may be freely voiced and expressed here. Just as in the world of politics there is need for free thought, likewise in the world of religion there should be the right of unrestricted individual belief. Consider what a vast difference exists between modern democracy and the old forms of despotism. Under an autocratic government the opinions of men are not free, and development is stifled, whereas in a democracy, because thought and speech are not restricted, the greatest progress is witnessed. It is likewise true in the world of religion. When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization may give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are inevitable. Therefore, this is a blessed church because its pulpit is open to every religion, the ideals of which may be set forth with openness and freedom." --Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, 197. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 4:16 PM Subject: Re: bahai - After over five years of observing the tactics of bahai fundamentalists, "Curious" wrote in message news:X1mr7.2554$cu4.186170@ozemail.com.au... > > I never saw or heard any member of the Baha'i community call for order, > due process or a fair hearing. >[snip] > A fair and open hearing is not a part of the Baha'i system Alas, all too true.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 8:17 AM Subject: bahai - Deceiving the Public in Detroit Newspaper Ad The Detroit News, Sunday, September 23, 2001 "We Stand *United*. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly." -Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from the Birmingham Jail SIGNED by 30+ churches and organizations, including the Metropolitan Detroit Bahai Community. People of Faith United for Reconciliation, Justice and Peace. An interfaith service will be held at 4:00pm on Sunday, September 23rd at Fort Street Presbyterian Church at 631 W. Fort Street, Detroit. Ad Paid for by 30+ local businesses and organizations. -- No one remotely familiar with the actual record of the bahai faith, especially during the last decade, would recognize how ironic, hollow, and hypocritical the words of this ad are in relation to the bahai faith's involvement with this event. Indeed, the bahai administration is relying on the ignorance of most people with its actual record of injustice, censorship, coercion, and suppression of free speech and conscience. The bahai faith's using the WTC attack in this manner is truly tantamount once again to FRAUD. Professor Juan Cole, History Department, The University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm The uninformed public might want to look closely at the evidence on his and my websites, especially relating to fraud and the recent lawsuit in New Mexico. Courtesy copy to the Detroit News ad department at tlucido@detmain1.dnps.com -- Frederick Glaysher Resident of Metro Detroit The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 8:17 AM To: tlucido@detmain1.dnps.com Subject: bahai - Deceiving the Public in Detroit Newspaper Ad The Detroit News, Sunday, September 23, 2001 "We Stand *United*. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly." -Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from the Birmingham Jail SIGNED by 30+ churches and organizations, including the Metropolitan Detroit Bahai Community. People of Faith United for Reconciliation, Justice and Peace. An interfaith service will be held at 4:00pm on Sunday, September 23rd at Fort Street Presbyterian Church at 631 W. Fort Street, Detroit. Ad Paid for by 30+ local businesses and organizations. -- No one remotely familiar with the actual record of the bahai faith, especially during the last decade, would recognize how ironic, hollow, and hypocritical the words of this ad are in relation to the bahai faith's involvement with this event. Indeed, the bahai administration is relying on the ignorance of most people with its actual record of injustice, censorship, coercion, and suppression of free speech and conscience. The bahai faith's using the WTC attack in this manner is truly tantamount once again to FRAUD. Professor Juan Cole, History Department, The University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm The uninformed public might want to look closely at the evidence on his and my websites, especially relating to fraud and the recent lawsuit in New Mexico. Courtesy copy to the Detroit News ad department at tlucido@detmain1.dnps.com -- Frederick Glaysher Resident of Metro Detroit The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 8:33 AM Subject: Re: Interreligious Dialogue The Detroit News, Sunday, September 23, 2001 "We Stand *United*. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly." -Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from the Birmingham Jail SIGNED by 30+ churches and organizations, including the Metropolitan Detroit Bahai Community. People of Faith United for Reconciliation, Justice and Peace. An interfaith service will be held at 4:00pm on Sunday, September 23rd at Fort Street Presbyterian Church at 631 W. Fort Street, Detroit. Ad Paid for by 30+ local businesses and organizations. -- No one remotely familiar with the actual record of the bahai faith, especially during the last decade, would recognize how ironic, hollow, and hypocritical the words of this ad are in relation to the bahai faith's involvement with this event. Indeed, the bahai administration is relying on the ignorance of most people with its actual record of injustice, censorship, coercion, and suppression of free speech and conscience. The bahai faith's using the WTC attack in this manner is truly tantamount once again to FRAUD. Professor Juan Cole, History Department, The University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm The uninformed public might want to look closely at the evidence on his and my websites, especially relating to fraud and the recent lawsuit in New Mexico. Courtesy copy to the Detroit News ad department at tlucido@detmain1.dnps.com -- Frederick Glaysher Resident of Metro Detroit The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3baecee3@isis.cybersurf.net... Conflict rooted in the opposing claims of the world's religions has sparked bloody wars throughout the ages, and yet the desire to find solutions to what appear to be irreconcilable differences has almost as long a history. The thirty-fourth Psalm, for example, urges followers to "seek peace, and pursue it." But perhaps one of the most heartfelt pleas for interreligious understanding was penned by Nicolaus Cusanus, who wrote in 1453: Thou art He, O God, who is sought in the different religions in different ways and is named with different names, for Thou remainest as Thou art, incomprehensible to all and ineffable. Be Thou gracious and reveal Thy countenance... If Thou wouldst be so gracious, then the sword, envious hatred, and all evil will cease and all will realize that there is but one religion in the variety of the religious customs.1 For four and a half centuries after that prayer was penned, religious cooperation was seen as an unapproachable ideal and religious conflict as the norm, but in the past hundred years significant changes have occurred. The peoples and cultures of the world have been drawn into closer and closer proximity through advances in communications, cultural and scientific interchange, economic necessity, and vastly greater knowledge about the world. This increased awareness of other peoples and their cultures has challenged theologians and religious thinkers to reconsider their own faith communities' long-held claims as the sole source of absolute truth.2 Such reconsideration has, in turn, led to increased interreligious dialogue and collaboration. details: https://www.bci.org/edmonton.bahais/world_watch.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 6:51 AM Subject: Re: Due Process and Consultation - resources "Curious" wrote in message news:VuRr7.686$bL3.51450@ozemail.com.au... > > THERE IS NO DUE PROCESS WITHIN THE BAHA'I COMMUNITY. > The UHJ confirms this. Abdul Baha and the UHJ have instructed the Assemblies > to implement due process. IT HAS NOT HAPPENED. Which is what many, many people have come to realize through bitter experience.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 7:05 AM Subject: Re: something Fred posted on Beliefnet > "Charles" wrote in message > news:3BA96483.413E5385@mindspring.com... > > no, you are completely incorrect, fuckhead. i don't like fred because he > has no netiquette. Am I the only one to detect an increasing sense of frustration among a number of bahai fundamentalists? -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: NEW website address - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience For those interested, I've moved my website to the following address: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:22 PM Subject: Re: We hear the bells toll... -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3bb0b782@isis.cybersurf.net... We hear the bells toll. They toll over the world system, today so arrogantly victorious and alienated from the gravity of the disease that has taken hold of it and will lead to its death. Death may come from the two crises mentioned above. It is highly probable that it will stem from the collapse of the world economic and financial system that currently sustains our societies. The truth will surface. But when it does, it will be too late. We will then see productive capital (roughly 35 trillion dollars) breaking away from speculative capital (about 80 to 100 trillion dollars-no one knows for sure). The latter is solely paper, and pure image. In a major crisis, it will evaporate like a soap bubble, with no sustainability whatsoever, tumultuously dragging towards irrevocable disaster millions of people who will perish like flies-while others will seek refuge, surviving in preserved oases and envying those who died before them... THE DANGEROUS PASSAGE TO A WORLD REPUBLIC details: https://www.bci.org/edmonton.bahais/world_republic.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:24 PM Subject: Re: USA is the Main Obstacle to World Peace -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mesbah" wrote in message news:542b8395.0109150945.73785a6e@posting.google.com... > Understanding Oil > By Serj Tankian > The brutal attacks/bombings this week in New York, and Washington > D.C., along with threats of attacks there and elsewhere in the country > have changed our times forever. While the mass media concentrates on > the details of the destruction, and the blanketed words of > politicians, I will attempt to understand and explain the events from > the fence. BOMBING AND BEING BOMBED ARE THE SAME THINGS ON DIFFERENT > SIDES OF THE FENCE. > > Terror is not a spontaneous human action without credence. People just > donâ?Tt hijack planes and commit harikari (suicide) without any weight > of thought to the action. No one in the media seems to ask WHY DID > THESE PEOPLE DO THIS HORRIFIC ACT OF VIOLENCE AND DESTRUCTION? > > To be able to understand the answer to this, we must first look at our > U.S. Mideast Policy. During most of the 20th century, U.S. businesses > have worked on attaining oil rights and concessions from countries in > the Middle East and Eastern Europe. After WWI, secret back door deals > by our State Dept. yielded oil rights from then defeated Turkey to > fields in what is now Iraq and Saudi Arabia, in return for looking the > other way at a crime against humanity, the Genocide of the Armenians > by the Turks. Oil profits have been the motivating factors behind many > attempts at counterinsurgency of democratic regimes by the CIA and the > U.S in the Middle East (such as Iran in the 1950s, where the Shah > replaced the Prime Minister who refused to give up oil rights to the > U.S., and since the people couldnâ?Tt deal with the Shah, an extremist > government headed by the Ayatollah Khomeini ultimately prevailed). > During the Iran-Iraq war, America supplied both sides with weapons and > advice. These are not the actions of a rich superpower wanting peace. > Letâ?Ts not forget that Saddam Hussein, before being Americaâ?Ts > vision of the Anti-Christ, was a close ally of the U.S., and the CIA. > So what was the firm belief system of consecutive American > administrations that caused all this to occur ? PEACE IN THE MIDDLE > EAST WILL LEAD TO HIGHER OIL AND GASOLINE PRICES. Letâ?Ts not also > forget the power of the Arms industry, disguised as defense, that > still sells billions of dollars of weapons to the area. Therefore it > has not been in the short-term economic interest of the U.S. to foster > Peace in the Middle East. Using the above reasoning, the U.S. has > encouraged extremist governments, toppled democracies, as in the case > of Iran to replace it with a monarchy, rigged elections, and many more > unspeakable political crimes for U.S. businesses abroad. Letâ?Ts not > also forget the Red Scare. During the war between the then Soviet > Union and Afghanistan, the U.S. armed and supported the Taliban, a > fundamentalist Muslim organization, and allowed them to export opium > and heroin out of their country to pay for those weapons. Therefore > the Taliban rose to power and control with the help of the U.S.A. > Today, the bombing of Iraq still continues, no longer covered by the > media, the economic embargo still remains, killing millions of > children, and recently, while the world and the U.N. General Assembly > have cried out to bring in peacekeeping forces into Israel and > Palestine, to end the escalated war and recent assassinations, the > U.S. has vetoed the rest of the Security Council and has halted the > possibility of peace, there, in the most volatile place in the world. > > People in Serbia, Lebanon, Iraq, Sudan, and Afghanistan to name a few > have seen bombs fall, not always at military targets and kill innocent > civilians, as the scene in New York city yesterday. The wars waged by > our government in our names has landed smack in the middle of our > living room. The half hour of destruction closed down all world > financial markets, struck the central headquarters of our military, > and had our leaders running into bunkers, and our citizens into fear > and frenzy. What scares me more than what has occurred is what our > reactions to the occurrences may cause. President Bush belongs to a > long generation of Republican Presidents who love war economies. The > media has only concentrated on the bombings, if you will, and what > type of retaliations are looming for the perpetrators. What everyone > fails to realize is that the bombings are a reaction to existing > injustices around the world, generally unseen to most Americans. To > react to a reaction would be to further sponsor the reaction. In other > words, my belief is that the terror will multiply if concrete steps > are not taken to sponsor peace in the middle east, NOW. This does not > mean that we should not find the guilty party(s), Bin Laden, or > whoever they may be, and not try them. Put simply, as long as a major > injustice remains, violence precipitates to the surface of life. > > Native American folklore, the Bible, Nostradamus, and many other major > religious beliefs point to this era with the visuals of yesterdayâ?Ts > disasters, and conditions of ecological disasters we experience daily > in our lives today. War, rumors of war, famine, long burning fires, > etc., are at our doorstep. We can prevail over this possible vision > with the power of the human spirit, understanding, compassion, and > peace. ITâ?TS TIME TO PUT OUR NEEDS FOR SECURITY AND SURVIVAL, > ACHIEVED ONLY THROUGH PEACE, ABOVE AND BEYOND PROFITS, ESPECIALLY IN > THESE TIMES. > > SOLUTION: > > The U.S. should stop sidestepping the U.N. Security Council, and allow > U.N. Peacekeeping troops and missions to the Middle East. Stop the > violence first. > > Stop the bombing and patrol of Iraq. > > With todayâ?Ts gains in the use of alternative fuels, develop them to > full usage with autos and other utilities, to make the country less > dependant on an already depleting natural reserve, oil. > > By initiating peace, we would have already shaken the foundations of > support for Bin Laden, and/or all those that sponsor activities like > those we saw yesterday, and break the stronghold of extremists on the > world of Islam. On the other hand, if we carry out bombings on > Afghanistan or elsewhere to appease public demand, and very likely > kill innocent civilians along the way, weâ?Td be creating many more > martyrs going to their deaths in retaliation against the retaliation. > As shown from yesterdayâ?Ts events, you cannot stop a person whoâ?Ts > ready to die. > > ¤#¤#¤#¤#¤#¤#¤#¤#¤#¤#¤#¤#¤ > "FEAR is the worst reason to make any decisions in life." -Serj > Tankian ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:25 PM Subject: Re: Suffering caused by the Collapse of the Old World System -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3baf8f68@isis.cybersurf.net... The suffering caused by the collapse of the old world system will convince everyone that it's not possible to establish a new world covenant founded exclusively on human beings. details: https://www.bci.org/edmonton.bahais/world_republic.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:29 PM Subject: Vulgarity & bahai fundamentalists Interesting how the two have increasingly united.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:40 AM Subject: REVISED - bahai - New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AmicusC.htm -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ - SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT COUNTY OF BERNALILLO STATE OF NEW MEXICO DEBORAH BUCHHORN, for herself ) and for MINORITY ) MEMBERS OF THE SPIRITUAL ) ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í'S OF ) ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) vs. ) No. CV 2001-01978 ) ) TRUSTEES OF THE SPIRITUAL ) ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHÁ'Í S OF ) ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, and ) THE SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE ) BAHÁ'Í'S OF ALBUQUERQUE, ) NEW MEXICO, a non-profit ) corporation, and the ) NATIONAL SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY ) OF THE BAHÁ'Í'S OF THE ) UNITED STATES, ) an Illinois Corporation, ) ) Defendants. ) VERIFIED COMPLAINT FOR FRAUD, LIBEL, BREACH OF CORPORATE DUTIES, AND DECLARATORY AND INJUNCTIVE RELIEF COMES NOW Plaintiffs by and through their attorney of record, Yorgos D. Marinakis, and for their Complaint states as follows: INTRODUCTION 1. Plaintiffs file this shareholder or member derivative suit against: - the Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Albuquerque, New Mexico (Local Spiritual Assembly, or LSA), - their Trustees, and - the Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of the United States (National Spiritual Assembly, or NSA), with whom the Local Spiritual Assembly and itsTrustees have privity. 2. Plaintiffs allege that Trustees breached their duties as corporate officers. 3. Plaintiffs allege that the National Spiritual Assembly breached their duty of deciding appeals owed to Plaintiffs. 4. Plaintiffs allege that the literature review policies of the Local Spiritual Assembly and the National Spiritual Assembly, which lie in privity, unlawfully prevent shareholders from their right to communicate with other shareholders. 5. Plaintiffs allege that Defendants failed to execute their duties under their corporate by-laws. PARTIES 6. Named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn was a shareholder or member of the Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Albuquerque, New Mexico, at the time of the incidents stated in this Complaint, and she continues to be a member. 7. The Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Albuquerque, New Mexico (Local Spiritual Assembly) is a New Mexico non-profit corporation. Shareholder-members may appeal decisions by the Local Spiritual Assembly to the National Spiritual Assembly. 8. The Trustees of the Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of Albuquerque, New Mexico (Trustees) individually reside in Bernalillo County, New Mexico, as a condition of their Trusteeship. Trustees are Kambiz Victory, Ok-Sun and John McHenry, Manijeh Kavelin, Nelson Sapad, Harry and Sondra Day, Owen Creightney, and Carol Caldwell. Jenny Beery was a Trustee during the time of many of these incidents. 9. The Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of the United States (National Spiritual Assembly) is incorporated in and has its principal place of business in Illinois. FACTS 10. The Bahá'í have no clergy. Instead, each community in the Bahá'í Faith annually elects nine Trustees or a "Local Spiritual Assembly," which actsas an agent or subsidiary of the National Spiritual Assembly. Each National Spiritual Assembly answers to the supreme Bahá'í body, The Universal House of Justice. The Universal House of Justice established the Continental Board of Counsellors (sic) to assist them, and the Countinental Board of Counsellors further has the Auxiliary Board to assist them.11. In the particular situation between the Trustees of the Spiritual Assembly of Bahá'ís of Albuquerque, New Mexico, Defendants Trustees controlled what member activities Plaintiffs were able to engage in and what members they were able to talk to. They stopped them from interacting with friends at member events. They stopped Plaintiffs from serving on committees and stopped their individual activities for personal reasons. They made all the decisions relating to Plaintiffs' membership-related activities. They told named Plaintiff that opinions she may personally hold were bad and implicitly threatened to curtail her presence at member functions. They acted as if the abuse were no big deal, that it was Plaintiff's fault, and denied doing it. They failed to act when one member was physically threatened and shoved by another member. 12. Although Plaintiffs have consistently complied with Defendant Trustees' demands, they have also consistently filed complaints against them with the National and International Bahá'í authorities. This has enraged the Defendant Trustees. 13. Defendant Trustees have never made specific accusations or informed Plaintiffs of wrongdoing, other than vague statements such as "you have issues with the Spiritual Assembly." 14. Therefore, deep-seated animosities and distrust have arisen between Plaintiffs and the Trustees, which are incapable of resolution and thereby present an irreconcilable barrier to the ability of the corporation to function as is. 15. Plaintiffs' reasonable expectations that they would be able to participate in the management and activities of their corporation, as minority shareholders, have been thwarted since at least 1995. 16. Article IV of the LSA by-laws provides that the LSA shall compose differences and disagreements among members of the community. Article VII, section 9 of the NSA by-laws provides that any member of a Bahá'í community may appeal from a decision of his LSA to the NSA. Failure to Allow Inspection of Books and Records 17. The books and records of the corporation have been maintained in an inaccurate and inequitable manner. 18. The year 2000 annual meeting showed a 10%, $10,000 discrepancy in the corporate books. 19. In a letter dated September 3, 2000, named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn informed the Local Spiritual Assembly that she desired to inspect their financial books. Defendants refused. 20. Following mailing of the demand letter, the LSA offered to allow namedPlaintiff to inspect the books and records, but under conditions that the Plaintiff deemed in bad faith. Fraudulent Oppression and Prevention of Communications between Shareholders 21. On April 19, 1998, Defendant Trustees ordered named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn to refrain from discussing her "issues" with anyone but Auxiliary Board member Brent Poirier and the Local Spiritual Assembly. Plaintiff complied and appealed to Brent Poirier and the National Spiritual Assembly, who took no action. Defendant LSA has wrapped many of their dealings with members in the cloak of secrecy in a like manner. Electioneering 22. At the Annual Meeting Feast of 1999, Defendant Trustees fraudulently rigged the election of Trustee Nelson Sapad by calling for applause for him three times prior to an election of corporate officers. Plaintiff appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly and Brent Poirier, who took no action. 23. Defendant Trustees or their agents fraudulently rigged the election of Harry and Sondra Day, by introducing them and calling for applause moments before an election of corporate officers. 24. Trustees do not ensure secret balloting at the Annual Meeting Feast. The usual practice is not to use a ballot box, but for members to lay their ballots on a plate or in a basket in plain sight of the election tellers. Ms. Buchhorn appealed to Brent Poirier on at least one election. Mr. Poirier responded by handling the collection basket himself. 25. In the member newsletter and prior to the annual election and during the Annual Meeting Feast, Trustees have used scriptural quotes to draw attention to persons serving on certain committees. Fraudulent and Oppressive Behavior Relating to the TV Show "Spiritual Reality" 26. Plaintiffs conceptualized and produced a TV show named "Spiritual Reality." After 100 showings, during which Defendant Trustees only complimented Plaintiffs, Defendant Trustees, fraudulently and with intent to oppress, mandated major changes in the show. Plaintiffs complied and appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly and Brent Poirier, who took no action. 27. Defendant Trustees, fraudulently and with intent to oppress, ordered Plaintiffs to "temporarily postpone" their television show, "Spiritual Reality." Plaintiff complied, and Defendants never specifically informed Plaintiffs what they had done to precipitate the arbitrary and capricious termination. The effect of this order, namely the termination of the TV show, violated the right of shareholders to communicate with other shareholders. 28. Trustees fraudulently and under false pretences stated that the reasonsfor termination would be fully discussed at a later meeting, at which meeting those reasons were never discussed. Defendant Trustee Kambiz Victory, employee of channel 41, knew or should have known that a television program cannot be "temporarily postponed." Plaintiffs appealedto the National Spiritual Assembly, who took no action. 29. Defendant Kambiz Victory, a Trustee, fraudulently and with intent to oppress, told named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn in regards to her television show that "Your teaching can have no effect because you are not in unity with the Spiritual Assembly." Defendant knew that Ms. Buchhorn's television show brought in 15% of the information requests during an unrelated major regional advertising campaign by Defendants. Plaintiff appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly, who took no action. 30. Defendant Trustees fraudulently and under false pretences set-up Plaintiffs to a "confession" of their animosity towards Defendant Trustees. Named Plaintiff appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly, who took no action. Other Oppression 31. As an act of individual initiative, named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn organized a Bahá'í parade float for several years for the New Mexico State Fair Parade. In 2000, Defendant Trustees convened a task force to organize the parade float for that year. On August 22, 2000, approximately 19 days before the parade, Defendant Trustees, fraudulently and with intent to oppress, instructed Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn to terminate her parade float activities. A false reason for this termination was published in the membership newsletter by Defendant Trustees, causing Plaintiff embarrassment. Plaintiff complied, and Defendant never informed Plaintiff as to the reason for that termination. Plaintiff appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly and Brent Poirier, who took no action. 32. Defendant Trustees, fraudulently and with intent to oppress, ordered Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn to receive instruction on the Bahá'í Covenant. Plaintiff complied and attended that "instruction," which in fact consisted of three (3) hours of interrogation by Trustee Owen Creightney, and John and Ok-Sun McHenry. It became apparent at this meeting that Trustee Creightney had lied to the Trustees in order to oppress named Plaintiff. Plaintiff appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly and Brent Poirier, who took no action. 33. Defendant Trustees, fraudulently and with intent to oppress, ordered named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn to resign from the Bahá'í gospel choir. Plaintiff complied, and Defendant never informed Plaintiff as to the reason for that termination. Plaintiff appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly and Brent Poirier, who took no action. 34. Defendant Trustees, fraudulently and with intent to oppress, undermined named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn's Saturday Night Coffee House and in effect stopped her Coffee House. Defendant never informed Plaintiff as tothese circumstances. Plaintiff appealed to the National Spiritual Assembly and Brent Poirier, who took no action. 35. Defendant Trustees, fraudulently and with intent to oppress, have ordered numerous Bahá'ís to shun Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn.36. Defendant Trustee Kambiz Victory told a Plaintiff "I am the voice of God in this community." Libel 37. Defendant Trustees knowingly published false and defamatory information about Plaintiffs in the Albuquerque Bahá'í newsletter, specifically relating to the parade banner. Unlawful Prevention of Communication between Shareholders 38. Defendant National Spiritual Assembly has the policy that Local Spiritual Assemblies are responsible for reviewing pamphlets and newsletters and materials that mention the Faith such as songs, play scripts, souvenir items, and greeting cards, intended for publication or distribution within their communities, whereas the National Spiritual Assembly is responsible for review of those same materials intended for nationwide publication. CAUSES OF ACTION Count I 39. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporate all previous paragraphs. 40. The Trustees of the Local Spiritual Assembly have repeatedly acted and continue to act fraudulently towards the Plaintiffs. 41. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. Count II 42. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporate all previous paragraphs. 43. The Trustees of the Local Spiritual Assembly libeled the named Plaintiff. 44. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. Count III 45. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporate all previous paragraphs. 46. The Trustees of the Local Spiritual Assembly have repeatedly failed to act and continue to fail to act in good faith, which failure constitutes fraud. 47. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. Count IV 48. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporates all previous paragraphs.49. The Trustees of the Local Spiritual Assembly have repeatedly failed to act and continue to fail to act with the care an ordinary prudent person in like position would exercise under similar circumstances, which failure constitute fraud.50. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. Count V 51. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporate all previous paragraphs. 52. The Trustees of the Local Spiritual Assembly have repeatedly failed to act and continue to fail to act in a manner they reasonably believe to be in the best interests of the corporation and its members, which failure constitutes fraud. 53. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. Count VI 54. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporate all previous paragraphs. 55. The Trustees have repeatedly failed their duty to compose differences and disagreements with themselves and the members, in violation of their by-laws, which failure constitutes fraud. 56. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. Count VII 57. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporate all previous paragraphs. 58. The National Spiritual Assembly has repeatedly failed their duty to hear appeals from Plaintiffs, in violation of their by-laws. 59. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. Count VIII 60. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporate all previous paragraphs. 61. The literature review policies of the National and Local Spiritual Assemblies violate the rights of corporate members to communicate with other corporate members. 62. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. Count IX 63. Plaintiffs reallege and incorporate all previous paragraphs. 64. The practice of the Local Spiritual Assembly to direct members not to speak about their dealings with the LSA with other corporate members violates the rights of corporate members to communicate with other corporate members. 65. Plaintiffs have suffered emotional damages thereby. JUDICIAL RELIEF WHEREFORE, for these reasons, Plaintiffs request that this Court: 1. Declare that the Trustees acted fraudulently towards Plaintiffs; 2. Declare that Trustees libeled Plaintiffs; 3. Declare that the Trustees breached their corporate dutiestowardsPlaintiffs; 4. Remove the Trustees from their positions and enjoin them from serving in official Bahá'ís capacities for nineteen (19) years;5. Remove the LSA Directors who are also Trustees; 6. Declare that the Local Spiritual Assembly violated members' rights to inspect corporate books and records; 7. Compel Defendant LSA to retain an independent certified public accountant to audit the books for the last two years; 8. Declare that Defendant LSA violated their corporate by-laws by failing to compose differences and disagreements among members of the community; 6. Declare that the National Spiritual Assembly breached their duty of hearing Plaintiffs' appeals; 7. Declare that the literature review policies of the Bahá'ís violate United States common law as preventing corporate members from communicating with other corporate members; 8. Enjoin Defendants National Spiritual Assembly and Local Spiritual Assembly from enforcing their literature review policy; 9. Declare that the secrecy practices of the Local Spiritual Assembly violate United States common law as preventing corporate members from communicating with other corporate members; 10. Enjoin Defendant Local Spiritual Assembly from continuing their secrecy practices; 11. Award compensatory damages from Defendants to Plaintiffs; 12. Award attorney's fees and costs to Plaintiffs; 13. Any other relief this Court deems appropriate. Respectfully submitted, ___________________________ Yorgos D. Marinakis Attorney for Plaintiffs P.O. Box 45923 Rio Rancho, NM 87174 505-459-4664 877-430-9550 (fax) Named Plaintiff's Verification STATE OF NEW MEXICO ) ) ss. COUNTY OF BERNALILLO) COMES NOW Deborah Buchhorn, and being duly sworn, states as follows: 1. I have read and understood the contents of this Complaint. 2. I have personal knowledge of the facts stated herein. 3. I attest to and verify their truth andaccuracy.__________________________ DEBORAH BUCHHORN SWORN TO AND SUBSCRIBED before me this __ day of ______, 2001.________________________ Notary Public My Commission Expires: ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:42 AM Subject: REVISED - bahai - RESPONSE TO DEFENDANT TRUSTEES MOTION TO DISMISS New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AmicusC.htm -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ - SECOND JUDICIAL DISTRICT COUNTY OF BERNALILLO STATE OF NEW MEXICO DEBORAH BUCHHORN, for herself ) and for MINORITY SHAREHOLDER- ) MEMBERS OF THE SPIRITUAL ) ASSEMBLY OF THE BAH ' 'S OF ) ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) vs. ) No. CV 2001-01978 ) ) TRUSTEES OF THE SPIRITUAL ) ASSEMBLY OF THE BAH ' S OF ) ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO, and ) THE SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE ) BAH ' 'S OF ALBUQUERQUE, ) NEW MEXICO, a non-profit ) corporation, and the ) NATIONAL SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY ) OF THE BAH ' 'S OF THE ) UNITED STATES, ) an Illinois Corporation, ) ) Defendants. ) PLAINTIFF'S RESPONSE TO DEFENDANT TRUSTEES MOTION TO DISMISS COME NOW Plaintiffs by and through their attorney of record Yorgos Marinakis and for their response state as follows: INTRODUCTION By incorporating in the United States, Defendant Trustees agreed to follow the law of the land, but it is clear from their Motion to Dismiss that they believe the law of the land places them above the law. If the Bahá'í wish to undertake such civil jurisdiction over their members, they must provide due process, which they have failed to provide for seven years. ALLEGED FIRST AMENDMENT ISSUES There are simply and categorically no first amendment issues in this case. Churches are not immune from suit over issues that do not involve religious doctrines: "[w]ithout regard to the governing structure of a particular church, a court may, where appropriate, apply neutral principles of law to determine disputed questions that do not implicate religious doctrine. Jones v. Wolf, supra, 443 U.S. 595, 99 S.Ct. 3020, 61 L.Ed.2d 775. 'Neutral principles' are wholly secular legal rules whose application to religious parties or disputes does not entail theological or doctrinal evaluations." It will be shown below that these "neutral principles" are well-established for religious nonprofit corporations. As a general rule, Courts can decide secular legal questions in cases involving some background issues of religious doctrine, so long as courts do not intrude into determination of doctrinal issues. When the canons of Bahá'í law are in conflict with the law of the land, the canons must yield. Defendant Trustees implicitly assert (Motion to Dismiss, page 9) that this Court cannot hear this case because it involves an intangible or emotional harm to an individual committed by a church. In fact, this case involves violations of New Mexico State corporate law and U.S. corporate common law, not simply offenses to someone's sensibilities. Counts III-V allege violations of statutory duties of corporate officers, Counts VI and VII allege specific violations of filed corporate by-laws, and Counts VIII and IX allege violations of U.S. corporate common law. Count I alleges fraud and Count II alleges libel, not as individual harms but as torts by a corporation upon aminority set of member-shareholders. Defendant Trustees assert (Defendant's Motion, Section B) that their actions are protected by the first amendment as "ecclesiastical" or "internal," simply because they are a religious entity. If that were the rule, then the Catholic Church could have claimed that a priest's decision to commit pederasty was an ecclesiastical decision and therefore not a civil matter. Plaintiffs in actuality allege that Defendant Trustees oppressed and abused minority shareholder-member Plaintiffs, while Defendants National Spiritual Assembly failed to act upon Plaintiffs' appeals. This is simply a case of fraud and oppression on the shareholders, committed by corporate officers, which cases State Courts decide every day. The fact that the corporation is a non-profit religious society is irrelevant, because there are no background issues of religious doctrine in this case. I will now justify that statement. One of the allegations relates to the failure to allow inspection of the corporate books. New Mexico law of non- profit corporations clearly states that corporations must allow its members to inspect all their books and records: "All books and records of a corporation may be inspected by any member, or his agent or attorney, for any proper purpose at any reasonable time." In denying shareholders access to corporate books and records, the corporation has the burden to demonstrate strong and articulable reasons for denying that access, such as improper purpose. Defendant Trustees denied Plaintiff Buchhorn access to their books and failed to demonstrate strong and articulable reasons for doing so, having merely informed Defendant Buchhorn that they needed the guidance of the National Spiritual Assembly. Because the right to inspect books and records by members was a right at common law, Defendants National Spiritual Assembly and knew or should have known that this action by Defendant Trustees violated the law. Named Plaintiff Deborah Buchhorn's purpose was proper: the "draft" Annual Report showed an admitted 10% discrepancy in the books, and she wanted to investigate it. As another example, Counts III-V allege breach of duties of corporate officers and directors. New Mexico non- profit corporation law clearly states the duties of directors: "A director shall perform his duties as a director including his duties as a member of any committee of the board upon which the director may serve, in good faith, in a manner the director believes to be in or not opposed to the best interests of the corporation and with such care as an ordinary prudent person would use under similar circumstances in a like position." These are the same duties set forth in section 8.30 of the ABA Model Nonprofit Corporation Act (herein "Model Act"). These are the "neutral principles" discussed above in the first excerpt. According to that same Model Act, nondirector officers with discretionary authority have the same general duty of care and loyalty as directors. As delegates of the board of directors, officers are fiduciaries of the corporation and within the scope of their delegated management functions are subject to the same fiduciary duties as are directors. According to the Model Act, to determine whether a director or officer discharged the duty of good faith, the Court must "look to the director's state of mind to see if it evidenced honesty and faithfulness to the director's duties and obligations, or whether there was an intent to take advantage of the corporation. A director of a religious corporation in making a good faith determination may consider what the director believes to be: (1) the religious purpose of the corporation; and (2) applicable religious tenets, canons, laws, policies and authority." (emphasis added) This clearly implies that the Model Act applies to religious corporations. Case law also permits the Court examine the religious purposes or applicable religious laws: "Civil courts adjudicate ecclesiastical matters only when civil or property rights are involved, and then only when their determination is necessary and incident to the adjudication of civil or property rights The courts will inquire only as to what are the rules and decisions of the church and its tribunals, and what parties or factions adhere to them, without questioning their wisdom or propriety[.]" There is, however, no need for the Court in this case toexamine the religious purpose of the corporation. Defendant Trustees acted in a manner that would qualify as domestic violence. These actions are so far opposed to the true interests of the corporation as to lead to the clear inference that no one thus acting could have been influenced by any honest desire to secure such interests, but that they must have acted with intent to subserve some ulterior purpose, regardless of the consequences to the corporation and in a manner inconsistent with its interests. Even if this Court finds that the issues in this case involve religious doctrine, it may still hear this case, because decisions by religious entities may be the subject of civil inquiry in cases of alleged fraud: "a civil court might be empowered to examine the propriety of such an appointment [i.e., the ecclesiastical decision of appointment to a Roman Catholic chaplaincy] if it were a product of 'fraud, collusion, or arbitrariness.'" This is precisely thesituation in the instant case. Defendant Trustees have made numerous decisions that Plaintiff alleges were the product of fraud. Moreover, even if this Court finds that the issues in this case are purely ecclesiastical, it may still hear the case, because they may pose a substantial threat to public safety, peace and order: "The courts may not intervene in purely ecclesiastical matters, including church disciplinary actions concerning the conformity of church members to the standards of morals required of them, unless such actions pose a substantial threat to public safety, peace or order. Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 205, 92 S.Ct. 1526, 32 L.Ed.2d 15 (1972); Sherbert v. Verner, 374 U.S. 398, 83 S.Ct. 1790, 10 L.Ed.2d 965 (1963); Paul v. Watchtower of New York, Inc., 819 F.2d 875 (9th Cir. 1987), cert denied, _____U.S.____, 108 S.Ct. 289, 98 L.Ed.2d 249 (1987)." The Bahá'í are the world's second-most widespread religion. Spiritual Assemblies, similar to Defendant, are located in cities across the United States. Widespread abusive and oppressive behavior by these entities is plausible and may represent a substantial threat to public safety, peace or order. Defendant Trustees claim that Plaintiffs' membership in the Bahá'í Faith constitutes implied consent to their government, which confers upon Defendant Trustees' decisions an internal nature deserving of judicial deference (Motion to Dismiss, page 6). However, this situation invites abuse if the Local Spiritual Assembly fails to follow its own commitment to the laws, whichPlaintiff alleges they have done here. As discussed above, this Court has the power to determine whether the Bahá'í have followed civil and their own religious law. Defendant Trustees implicitly asserts "'religious questions permeate all of the issues in this case.'" The Supreme Court of New Jersey responded to such an allegation by stating that it was the Court's duty not to refer civil issues to a religious tribunal, but to hear them: "To the contrary, as we have noted, distinct civil issues should have been reserved by the court not merely because it had the discretion to decide them, but also because it had a duty to do so." Plaintiff suggests that if this Court is concerned with the first amendment issues that it follows the recommendations of the Supreme Court of New Jersey, and order the parties to fully brief which issues are religious and which are civil: "It is imperative, in order to avoid unconstitutional entanglements of civil and religious issues and to preserve the right to civil adjudication of secular disputes, for a trial court to specify which issues are religious and therefore to be settled by religious authority; and which issues are civil and to be resolved by the court Thus, when faced with cases such as this, trial courts initially should entertain full briefing and argument by the parties as to what issues are 'religious' and what are 'civil'; and as to what is the proper authority to decide 'religious' questions. By providing complete and clear rulings on such questions before referral to any religious tribunal, a trial court will provide the parties and appellate courts with a clear record for informed review of any possible first amendment issues." ALLEGED PLEADING ISSUES Plaintiffs' Complaint has complied with the New Mexico law of notice pleading, shareholder derivative suit pleading, and fraud pleading. In New Mexico, the theory of pleadings is to give the parties fair notice of the claims and defenses against them, and the grounds upon which they are based. Notice pleading requires only sufficient detail so that the parties and the court will have a fair idea of the action about which the party is complaining and can see the basis for relief. In a shareholder derivative action specifically, the complaint must be verified, the plaintiff must allege that she was a shareholder or member at the time of the transaction in question,and the plaintiff must allege with particularity the efforts she made to obtain the action she desires from the corporation. In Complaints for fraud, the plaintiff must allege the circumstances constituting fraud with particularity. Plaintiffs complied with all these requirements. The Complaint contains numerous specific incidents and factual allegations that involve more than named Plaintiff. Named Plaintiff verified the Complaint. There is no requirement to name all minority shareholders as Defendant Trustees claims. More specifically, as to Defendant Trustees' assertion regarding the libel claim (Motion to Dismiss, Section F, page 11), Plaintiff refers Your Honor to paragraph 31 of the verified Complaint. As to Defendant Trustees' assertion regarding the literature review claim (Motion to Dismiss, Section G, page 12), Defendants' literature review policy facilitated this abusive situation by preventing shareholders from communicating with other shareholders. This policy is in violation of U.S. law: "[t]he statutory right accorded a stockholder to communicate with other shareholders regarding matters of common interest as stockholders is much similar to freedom of speech." The fundamental position occupied this right can be seen by the frequency by which shareholders use it to justify their requests to inspect corporate books and records. In addition to enabling and facilitating the jeopardization of reasonable expectations of minority shareholders, this policy also in and of itself constitutes oppressive behavior. WHEREFORE, for these reasons, Plaintiff requests that this Court DENY Defendant Trustee's Motion to Dismiss. Respectfully submitted, Yorgos D. Marinakis Attorney for Plaintiffs P.O. Box 45923 Rio Rancho, NM 87174 505-459-4664 877-430-9550 (fax) I hereby certify that a true and correct copy of the foregoing was mailed to: Deborah D. Wellson this ____ day of May, 2001. ____________________ Yorgos D. Marinakis ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:44 AM Subject: REVISED - bahai - Amicus Curiae - New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL Amicus Curiae - New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL FEDEXed to the Second Judicial District County of Bernalillo, State of New Mexico: July 13, 2001 Re: Second Judicial District County of Bernalillo, State of New Mexico, Deborah Buchhorn, for Herself and for Minority Members of the Spiritual Assembly of the Bahais of Albuquerque, New Mexico, Plaintiffs, Vs. No. Cv 2001-01978 Trustees of the Spiritual Assembly of the Bahais of Albuquerque, New Mexico, and The Spiritual Assembly of the Bahais of Albuquerque, New Mexico, a Non-profit Corporation, and the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahais of the United States, an Illinois Corporation, Defendants. I I request the Court to consider my testimony as amicus curiae on July 18, 2001, in the Motion to Dismiss Deborah Buchhorn's lawsuit against the Bahai Local Spirtual Assembly of Albuquerque and the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States. I converted to the Bahai Faith in 1976 and have never withdrawn from it nor been notified otherwise by the Bahai administration. II I, like many Bahais, was and am attracted to the teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha by the progressive and liberal tenor of their writings. Relevant to Deborah Buchhorn's lawsuit are the almost numberless passages that are well represented by two brief quotations: These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world. Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization may give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are inevitable. Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, 197. Like many Bahais, the young person I was more than twenty-five years ago trusted these words indicated how the Bahai Faith itself would conduct its own affairs. Unfortunately, Deborah Buchhorn's experience, suggested through the details of her lawsuit, demonstrate the lived reality of everyday Bahai community life for all too many of its members. III The many other victims of fundamentalists among my fellow Bahais include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor of Dialogue magazine Stephen Scholl, its other editors, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest over the distortion of many historical facts, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the Department of History of the University of Michigan, Canadian writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, New Zealander Alison Marshall for writing a critique of Bahai publishing and censorship, and Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman. I urge the Court seeking to understand the Bahai Faith to consider the experience and views of the Bahais and ex-Bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my website, The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience, which I created in May of 1998 as a means of documenting the pervasive abuse of the liberty and freedom of conscience extolled by the Founders of the Bahai Faith. The over 30 megabytes of information that I have collected can leave little doubt for a fair-minded person that there are indeed very serious reasons for concern about the wide discrepancy that exists between the written and publicly proclaimed aims and goals of the Bahai Faith and the actual experience of many such Bahais, like Deborah Buchhorn, with persistent fraud and character assassination. Since Bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere, and because the Internet now no longer makes it possible with impunity, they have mounted for several years a concerted campaign of fraud and libel on such sites as AOL, the Usenet newsgroups soc.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, www.beliefnet.com, many email lists, and elsewhere to discredit and malign independent and diverse voices. Again, the details of Deborah Buchhorn's allegations merely read like more of the same old story. IV Far from the Court dismissing Deborah Buchhorn's lawsuit, it is the ardent wish of this Bahai, and I know of many Bahais and non-Bahais, that justice receive a hearing. While her allegations may surprise the inexperienced and uniformed about the Bahai Faith, every single detail of Ms. Buchhorn's lawsuit reads like old news to me, and I'm sure many other Bahais. In my opinion nothing she alleges hasn't already happened many, many times to other Americans, and Bahais elsewhere in the world, and has been documented repeatedly. What is unusual in her case is that she and her attorney Yorgos Marinakis have the stamina, courage, and strength of character to withstand the ferocious onslaught of fraud and libel so routinely meted out by the most fanatical and intolerant elements of the Bahai administration. I appeal to the Court to grant Deborah Buchhorn a just and full hearing. -- -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:46 AM Subject: REVISED - bahai - Character Assassination The bahai fundamentalist way: "But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence." --K. Paul Johnson Full text at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:47 AM Subject: REVISED - bahai - Right Wing bahais "....right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute." --Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan Full text at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:48 AM Subject: REVISED - bahai - Roll Call of Victims The latest victim is Deborah Buckhorn. Her story may be read at New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AmicusC.htm The many other victims of bahai fundamentalists include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:50 AM Subject: REVISED - bahai - Messages to HAIFA's Ayatollahs.... In addition to below, be sure to see FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AmicusC.htm --------------------------------------------------------------- This file contains two messages: "to uhj 12-10-99," "to uhj 7-24-1998": From: Patrick Henry Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights of Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed would never be violated in their religion. I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; indeed, the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending Baha'u'llah'sTeachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his Revelation. -- Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.)From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message regarding: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Patrick Henry patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor ; bahai-faith @ makelist.com Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM July 24,1998 Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in Iran would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the international community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, always courting the President and other members of the government, has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents as I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many individuals, Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within the Bahai community and administration. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more than ayear and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat twice now, along with thecollusion of other Bahais, the creation of an unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under Bahai-Discuss Archives. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/BCCAmenu.htm Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA has approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban for more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding talk.religion.bahai. The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," if you will, of Bahai censorship? -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:54 AM Subject: REVISED - bahai - NEWCOMERS - START HERE If newcomers to talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai desire not to be deceived, it will require more than a passing glance at a few messages. I suggest you begin with the links below which provide a historical survey of the last several years of bahai censorship and then visit further my and Professor Cole's websites. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Bahai Technique ---- Essential Reading https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations Documenting Censorship https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb-bq.htm alt.religion.bahai & talk.religion.bahai FAQ https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/FAQ.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ72498.htm To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, surveys the many incidents of bahai censorship that have taken place during the last few decades in "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AmicusC.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 7:02 AM Subject: Re: Vulgarity & bahai fundamentalists "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9os59r$eppob$3@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > > Indeed yes! And it's interesting that, just like the AO - they're not very > good at it, either! Oh certain fundies have cursed rather vehemently lately.... My, what a pent up bunch! Not surprising, though, given all their dirty tricks.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 7:11 AM Subject: bahai - Re: Due Process and Consultation - resources "Randy Burns" wrote in message news:ybas7.288$Uw2.143273@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > In the Baha'i Faith, the fact of being accused makes you guilty (of > something!), doesn't it? It will appear shocking to non-bahai observers but this allegation is all too frequently exactly how matters stand in the bahai faith today. There is indeed no effective means of appeal, due process, or balance of power to protect the individual from abuse and injustice.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 7:14 AM Subject: Re: Impact of Fred's website and efforts False Membership Statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica 1/11/2000 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/FalseStats.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9os59s$eppob$4@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > > "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message > news:f0853486.0109240643.11dcbd7e@posting.google.com... > > Better yet - > > visit you local Baha'is and see if your experience with them matches > > Fred's allegations. > > That is, if you can find any! The AO also has trouble finding them. Out of > a claimed 150,000 members they have trouble finding addresses for half of > them. Most have disappeared ot of apathy - the rest of them read Fred's > site and disappeared over the horizon! > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 7:21 AM Subject: REVISED - bahai - TERRORISM & OFF- ONline Stalking After twenty-five years as a member of the bahai faith, I see *little* difference between the basic underlying fanaticism of the perpetrators of the WTC terrorist attack and the fundamentalism of the worst elements among my fellow bahais. You're entitled to your view. I to mine. I cite Dave Fiortio's intolerant, threatening hate mail as further EVIDENCE, along with much of the documentation on my website. In my view, only the uhj can begin to remedy this situation by abolishing the censorship of "review" and ceasing to interpret out of existence of the moderate and liberal Teachings on free speech and conscience, thereby by setting a new direction and tone for the faith. Realism requires me to acknowledge it's very unlikely ever to happen.... I consider it my duty, as a bahai and otherwise, to inform my fellow believers and citizens of how grave matters truly stand within what purports to be Baha'u'llah's religion. bahai - Terrorism & Off- Online Stalking - Some of the evidence may be found at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/hate.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/CHarassment.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/BahaiThreatsLawsuit.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/BahaiAttacksonme.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Ex.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 7:25 AM Subject: REVISED - bahai - FRAUD in The Detroit News, Sunday, September 23, 2001 Notice the fundamentalists don't want to discuss these FACTS: -- The Detroit News, Sunday, September 23, 2001 "We Stand *United*. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly." -Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from the Birmingham Jail SIGNED by 30+ churches and organizations, including the Metropolitan Detroit Bahai Community. People of Faith United for Reconciliation, Justice and Peace. An interfaith service will be held at 4:00pm on Sunday, September 23rd at Fort Street Presbyterian Church at 631 W. Fort Street, Detroit. Ad Paid for by 30+ local businesses and organizations. -- No one remotely familiar with the actual record of the bahai faith, especially during the last decade, would recognize how ironic, hollow, and hypocritical the words of this ad are in relation to the bahai faith's involvement with this event. Indeed, the bahai administration is relying on the ignorance of most people with its actual record of injustice, censorship, coercion, and suppression of free speech and conscience. The bahai faith's using the WTC attack in this manner is truly tantamount once again to FRAUD. Professor Juan Cole, History Department, The University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm The uninformed public might want to look closely at the evidence on his and my websites, especially relating to fraud and the recent lawsuit in New Mexico. Courtesy copy to the Detroit News ad department at tlucido@detmain1.dnps.com -- Frederick Glaysher Resident of Metro Detroit The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 7:50 AM Subject: Bahai Fundamentalism Defined Nima Hazini 9/25/2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Fundamentalism.htm Nima, I hope you don't mind my making your comments available to others. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 7:54 AM Subject: Re: EGAD, I thought you were supposed to be peaceful and all. -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Bill Wheaton" wrote in message news:9oqdm8$svd$1@slb4.atl.mindspring.net... > Interesting, thanks. > I'm not on the prowl for a religion though, I've got one, Paganism. > The numbers are a little more viable and growing, even if its less > organized. > Thanks though > -Bill > > > "Robert Little" wrote in message > news:ffYr7.45127$bG6.11460497@typhoon.we.rr.com... > > Hi Bill > > > > Actually, you're not going to find many Baha'is here, and precious little > > that represents the spirit of love that permeates Baha'i teachings and > > gatherings. > > > > Please look up the word "Bahai" in your local white pages, call the number > > listed and see if there are any public meetings, or if you can obtain > > something to read. > > > > There are also some excellent Baha'i web sites where you may find accurate > > information about the history and teachings of this Religion. If you wish, > > you can also write directly to me. > > > > Enjoy, > > > > Robert A. Little > > > > "Bill Wheaton" wrote in message > > news:9ooeqh$bp9$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net... > > > I was just running through here to see what Bahai's were all about, and > > how > > > they were responding to the WTC and such. > > > > > > Boy did I get an ear full. > > > > > > Yikes, I had no idea you guys had this kind of problem. Don't think > > anyone > > > else does either. > > > > > > Are you just having a bad hair day or what? > > > > > > -Bill Wheaton > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 12:45 PM Subject: Re: Bahai Fundamentalism Defined Nima Hazini 9/25/2001 Oh yes, now I recall. Sorry. Thanks for jogging my memory. The popups are indeed a problem. I'll check on it. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:9osgm7$mo$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > Sure, no problem. Except the whole last part - Baha'i Fundamentalism - > should be put in quotations. > > Btw, all kinds of fortunecity adverts pop up at the new domain. It's a pain. > Can you do something about it? > > cheers, > Nima > > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" > wrote in message news:9osfcr$ehuj4$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Fundamentalism.htm > > > Nima, I hope you don't mind my making your comments available > to others. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:41 PM Subject: Re: Impact of Fred's website and efforts False Membership Statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica 1/11/2000 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/FalseStats.htm Juan Cole commented in April 2001 that, since 1968, 50% of the people who entered the bahai faith have left it. According to him, a professor of religious history and studies at the University of Michigan, the usually figure for most Christian denominations is approximately 80% retention, meaning about only 20% decide to leave once they become a member. 50% is truly a remarkably high number and reveals emphatically that something is indeed wrong about the atmosphere within the bahai faith, once one has declared one's belief and is taken into the fold to be properly censored, coerced, and manipulated.... Bahai fanatics online exude the same duplicity and dishonesty the new adherent quickly comes to realize is normative behind the facade of love and brotherhood. The FULL TEXT of the New Mexico lawsuit reveals what many of the problems are that are driving sensitive and thoughtful people out of the bahai faith in droves. Cole has also stated that according to the official census figures of India there are approximately only 5,000 bahais that they were able to find in the country compare with the millions claimed by the bahai administration, a fact worth lingering on.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Upon further reflection, a better estimate might be arrived at for true Baha'i world membership statistics than 6.7 million by extrapolating what is generally accepted regarding USA Bahai membership. The Bahai administration regularly claims 140,000 US Bahais. Having never seen such large numbers of US Bahais, most thoughtful Bahais prefer the figure of 60,000 US Bahais based on the widely known existence of actual mailing addresses for that number, many of whom though never participate in Bahai activities, being regarded as "inactive." If we subtract the "inactive" Bahais from the 60,000, we have the figure of approximately only 25,000 Bahais who show up regularly in the United States. Taking these two widely held figures, I calculate 43% and 19% of the 140,000 claimed by the Bahai administration: 140,000 X 43 % = 60,200 addresses for "Bahais" in US 140,000 X 19% = 26,600 "active" US Bahais Applying that formula to the similarly inflated figure of worldwide Bahai membership of 6.7 million, I believe the true worldwide membership numbers to be close to the following: 6.7 million X 43% = 2,881,000 known "addresses" worldwide 6.7 million X 19% = 1,273,000 "active" Bahais worldwide Rounding up, giving the benefit of the doubt, and there are probably only a maximum of 3 million Bahais at best worldwide, especially since there are essentially no Bahais in Europe beyond a negligible few hundred to a thousand in most countries, as in Japan. Many Bahais have for decades been suspicious of the administration's claims of millionsin the developing world. Hope this helps the Encyclopedia Britannica in its effort to ascertain a reliable figure. I should like to add two points: 1) A number of Bahais or ex-Bahais who worked at the NSA of the United States have stated online over the past years that they knew for a fact that only about 60,000 addresses existed for American Bahais-- all other snail mail would bounce.... Hence, the 60,000 figure. 2) TENS of THOUSANDS of people have entered the Bahai faith and then left, or been driven out, often without caring enough to bother with officially "withdrawing." It would appear approximately 80,000 of them.... Both facts should be considered by the Encyclopedia of Britannica when attempting to determine worldwide membership and probably both corroborate further my estimates based on 43% and 19% according to known discrepancies in the United States enrollment figures. Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: bahai.htm ----- Juan, Thanks for contacting the Encyclopedia Britannica. I myself doubt 5 million Bahais exist. The statistics for India and other countries of the developing world are certainly inflated and they usually have only the vaugest idea of what they're doing when they sign a Bahai card, never or seldom to show up again for any Bahai activity. 3 to 4 million would still be too many. Anything below 6.7 million, though, is headed in the right direction. Obviously, the Bahai institutions are unreliable. Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: bahai.htm ----- FYI: Thanks, Fred. I wrote them that even 5 million is an exaggeration. cheers JRIC [Juan Cole] ----- FYI mdiller@us.britannica.com : Hello. Your comment has been bouncing around our email network, from editors to World Data authorities, and the resolution is that we would like to revise our figures for Baha'i membership worldwide provided we can come across hard statistical data to go by. Given that our current figures are based on the best available statistics currently at our disposal, however, we will not be able to make such a change unless you can point us in the direction of publications that indicate exaggerated membership totals in the areas you mention. Do you know of such a reference source that we could consult? Sincerely, Mark Diller, Ph.D. Online Editor, Religion Britannica.com, Inc. > -----Original Message----- > From: Trumbull, Charles > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 8:54 AM > To: Sturgis, Joseph; Diller, Mark > Subject: RE: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia > Britannica > > Our figure this year for total Bahais worldwide is about 6.9 million. I'm > sure the authors of the table would be interested in any hard statistics > any of these readers may have that indicate our figures are too high. > > Charlie > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sturgis, Joseph > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 7:02 AM > To: Trumbull, Charles > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Diller, Mark > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 08:31 AM > To: Sturgis, Joseph > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > > > RE: World Religions Table. Joe Sturgis > > -----Original Message----- > From: Himick, Michael > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 4:34 PM > To: Diller, Mark > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia > Britannica ---- FYI A response from the Encyclopedia of Britannica: --- Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your feedback regarding the Britannica.com site. We value and appreciate all comments from our visitors. Your suggestions have been forwarded to the appropriate department. Thank you again for contacting Britannica.com. Sincerely, Jin Britannica.com Customer Service www.britannica.com -----Original Message----- From: FG Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:33 AM To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com Subject: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as Latin America are often exagerrated. cheers, Nima ----- In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote regard Washington Post article: > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > idx.html > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > bahai.htm ----- Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s7123gsg5k2185@corp.supernews.com... > I've emailed the Encyclopedia Britannica regarding these > false Bahai membership statistics. > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > bahai.htm > [The Washington Post took as accurate the inflated figure of Bahai membership and reported it in its paper:] ----- > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100-idx.html "Bahai's 6,764,000" Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > bahai.htm --- Finally, Juan Cole, in the following articles, places Bahai membership in the USA at 60,000, a figure that, in my opinion, is still too high: "Race, Immorality and Money in the American Baha'i Community" Religion 30, 2 (2000) "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109260809.138b2bfd@posting.google.com... > "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:<9os59s$eppob$4@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de>... > > "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message > > news:f0853486.0109240643.11dcbd7e@posting.google.com... > > > Better yet - > > > visit you local Baha'is and see if your experience with them matches > > > Fred's allegations. > > > > That is, if you can find any! The AO also has trouble finding them. Out of > > a claimed 150,000 members they have trouble finding addresses for half of > > them. Most have disappeared ot of apathy - the rest of them read Fred's > > site and disappeared over the horizon! > > Dermod, > > You are becoming very partisan indeed. The number is 160,000 and the > NSA has valid addresses for apprx. 50%. The ones that cannot be > tracked down are not visitors to Fred's site. He has had just over > 24,000 visits. Do the math. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 6:49 PM Subject: Re: This is Bahai? I'm not sure anyone every answered you, did they? -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship wrote in message news:3baa3565.10720275@news-server.austin.rr.com... > Let me begin by stateing up front that I am not Bahai. I was > introduced to the Bahai faith several years ago by a couple I found > very admirable and devout Bahai. From them I learned much about the > principles and beliefs of the Bahai and though I chose not to join I > gained great respect and admiration for the group. Since losing > contact with these fine people I have not had any further exposure to > the Bahai except learning of the persecution that happened in Iran. > This news group was my rediscovery. I am shocked ! Never have I seen > so much hate, vindictiveness and viciousness in a group since > alt.society.afganistan. I am amazed, these are not the people I came > to respect and admire. > There seems to be major power struggles going on within the Bahai > faith. It appears members are being ex communicated for disagreeing > with church leaders. It seems there are continuous lawsuits over Bahai > assets. > Is this what has happened to the Bahai faith? This is nothing at all > like I saw and learned a few years ago. What has happened and what is > going on? ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:23 AM Subject: bahai - Attacks by bahai Bullies All of the allegations in this message remain true even now in the fall of 2001: This file contains two messages: "attacks by Bahais" & "Bahai Bullying": The non-Bahai will note that a year later, now March 2000, my fellow Bahais only continue, with renewed ferocity, their attempts to silence and suppress what they don't want you to know about: Incessant Bahai attacks upon my freedom of speech and liberty, as well as on others, have made it necessary for me to adopt a persona for my own protection and well being. Other measures have been taken. During the late winter and spring of 1999, Bahais twice flooded my hotmail account with up to 1000 messages per day resulting in considerable inconvenience and expenditure of time and effort to block, and ultimately close, the offending accounts; they have, by using numerous Bahai trolls, especially Gyr Falcon, slandered, maligned, and caricatured me in a further effort to discredit me and portray me on talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere as a disturbed and errant individual; through concerted false charges and allegations against me, they have now succeeded in deceiving Hotmail into closing my email account, which I depended on for a considerable part of my income and livelihood. For documentation of many similar incidents of Bahai oppression during the last decade, see The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ----------------------------------------------------------- BULLYING: I'm alarmed at the Bahai attempts, during May of 1999, at character assassination, ridicule, and generally portraying me and others as disturbed individuals. This tactic has been used for over three years and continues to be used against me and other Bahais and non-Bahais or ex-Bahais on and off talk.religion.bahai. I have never claimed to be perfect. At times I have apologized to Bahais, Muslims, and other non-Bahais when I felt, or was convinced, that I was wrong or had spoken unfairly. I find the constant technique to portray me as a megalomanic or paranoid quite offensive. Similarly, the tactic of accusing me of spam for posting my opinions is calculated to discredit the validity of my and others' concerns regarding censorship in Bahai forums and has also been used on AOL. Such accusations reveal the frustration that Bahai fundamentalists apparently feel over my having found ways of enduring and resisting the onslaught of their concerted attacks, while preserving a historical record on a markedly ephermeral medium for innocent Bahais and non-Bahais.... Fair-minded Bahai and non-Bahai observers may judge for themselves whether my and others' allegations of censorship are valid by reading the record preserved under "Assorted Controversial Documents" on my website at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship As further corroboration that I am not the only person concerned with the intolerance and censorship that has overtaken the Bahai Faith, I recommend Professor Juan Cole's new book Modernity & the Millennium: The Genesis of the Bahai Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East, available through Columbia University Press or Amazon.com at https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0231110812/002-4036721-8058448 In his conclusion, which would never have passed the system of Bahai "review" that the UHJ imposes on all publications brought out under its tight control, Professor Cole, of the Department of History at The University of Michigan, quite accurately identifies the distortions that have been wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings: "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriachy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth- century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed." (196) He himself and many others, as evidence under the "Assorted Controversial Documents," have suffered at the hands of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the religion: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement." (201) These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on AOL, talk.religion.bahai, and alt.religion.bahai for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. The UHJ is also in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums of public discussion. I recommend all newcomers to these matters read "The Bahai Technique": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:32 AM Subject: bahai - Threats of Lawsuits All of the allegations made in this message remain true even now in the fall of 2001: Given the Bahai threats of lawsuits against me during the spring and early summer of 1999 let me say I have never committed slander against any individual, Bahai or otherwise, nor against any Bahai institution. If anyone has been slandered on talk.religion.bahai, it is I by the constant character assassination Bahais have marshalled against me since the fall of 1996. I'd be happy to appear in court and present an American judge and jury with the evidence of Bahai lies, deceit, censorship, and tyranny over the last decade. I highly doubt any legitimately established jury would look favorably on what Bahai fundamentalists have done to the Walbridges, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Stephen Scholl, and many, many other, indeed, TENS of THOUSANDS, of American ex-Bahais.... I'd be happy to appear in an American court and present the judge and jury with the many passages from the Bahai Writings in which the Figures speak favorably of free speech and conscience, such as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. Only one of the nine tyrants on Mt. Carmel could distort such passages to mean the kinds of things they have had the gall to foist on American Bahais in their statement this April, which Professor Juan Cole has candidly and accurately referred to as an "outburst of vehement ignorance." Bahais falsely accuse me of slander. Far from slandering the UHJ, I have stood up to Bahai fundamentalists and honestly spoken my conscience. They are free to call that "slander." I doubt any judge or jury in the West would call it such, especially after reading the EVIDENCE and reflecting on the enormous discrepancy between the sycophantic treatment leaders in government, the UN, and the media regularly receive from Bahais who are always interested in attempting to exploit their positions of power for one reason or another and the reality of abuse of the most basic human rights now well documented on Professor Juan Cole's website and on mine. I trust the American legal system to protect me from such organizations and fundamentalist reprobates. The objective observer will note the Bahai tactic of resorting to threats and intimidation instead of engaging in discussion of the actual incidents of censorship and oppression, extensively noted in https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm Such tactics remind me of a comment by Dr. Martin Luther King in his Letter from Birmingham Jail: "You deplore the demonstrations taking place in Birmingham. But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations." Fundamentalist Bahais typify this same mentality. They rail and threaten me, and others who dare speak their minds, but express no concern whatsoever for the underlying conditions of censorship and oppression that have led to distrust and contempt for the UHJ and its fascist distortion of Baha'u'llah's Teachings. Everything I have said is a matter of religious conscience protected under the US Constitution. My Bahai membership card proves it, and a scanned copy of it may be found on my website. I would be happy to present the original to any judge or jury in the land. "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." --Thomas Jefferson -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:46 AM Subject: bahai - Continuing Harassment by Fundamentalist Stalkers All of the allegations made in this message remain true even now in the fall of 2001: I believe it is the counter on my website, registering over 21,000 hits as of late February 2001, [now 24,450] that inspires the desperate, futile efforts of my fellow Bahais to silence and discredit me, as well as their fanatical attempts to suppress any possible knowledge of the truth documented there. In February 2000, I filed a police report regarding a variety of items and placed a trace on my telephone line. Other actions have been taken. While my fellow Bahais continue to attack, harass, malign, and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, and elsewhere, falsely accusing me of "spamming," of misrepresenting the intrigues of the "universal" house of "justice" to silence and ostracize people, of being mentally unstable and so on, it has been widely observed by other Bahais and non-Bahais that Bahai fundamentalists routinely refuse all discussion of the facts and EVIDENCE of the oppression and tyranny committed by the uhj. Those interested in impartially judging my sanity and background for themselves may find my bio helpful:https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm The non-Bahai observer might want to give careful consideration to the probability that the ujh itself supports and encourages this person in his continual harassment of me since I notified them of his actions on January 30, 2000, and again on February 24, 2001, receiving back confirmation of their receipt of my message, while he continued hounding me for weeks. Therecord of Bahai tyranny since 1970, on my website, documents that fundamentalist Bahais have gone from one attempt to another in the hope of silencing me and many, many others. ----- On January 30, 2000, I wrote to the uhj: A Bahai continues to harass me despite my polite requests that he cease emailing me his insults and threats. I hold the uhj directly responsible for the actions of this and other Bahai fanatics. The uhj routinely inspires this type of fundamentalism in my fellow Bahais and then uses them to suppress and control others. I shall be sending a copy of this message to the uhj along with the individual's name and email address. As a member of the Bahai faith since 1976, I have every right to express my conscience and beliefs as both Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha guaranteed their followers.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ----- Original Message ----- From: Bahá'í World Centre To: Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 11:09 AM Subject: RE: Bahai>>> Continuing Harassment Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message has been received at the Bahá'í World Centre. Electronic Communications Operation, Bahá'í World Centre ----- When I asked him to desist, he spammed my account with a dozen copies of this message:>I will post you and I will stand behind everything I wrote............. One of his earlier messages was: > You have truly mastered the high-tech form of rhetorical masturbation. >You continue to post the things which seem to excite you the most to people >who don't really care what you are posting. It is a shame that you feel >that this has become such a deep seated motivation for so much of your time.I have heard all the drivel you are posting, before, and it has always come >from individuals who have had their hand slapped for one reason or another. >Get over it. The Baha'i Faith is divine and nothing you can say(mostly >imagination) can ever effect it in the least. You will never have the >opportunity to understand the significance of the UHJ or its members in >your lifetime. Jealousy takes all forms. Why not stick to an area of your >expertise and get out of this one? No one here cares anymore about you or >your fantasies. "Mark Elderkin" wrote in message news:JuXu4.20$1j4.2147@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net... > > > It was a common stratagem of the Soviets and > > their academic puppets in the West to smear > > the characters and reputations of people who > > had the courage and honesty to confront the reality > > of the use of terror and tyranny by Stalin and his > > ilk. > > > > Comparably speaking, it will require a great effort on > > the part of those interested in the truth about the > > current Bahai uhj if they are not to be misled by my > > fellow Bahais and their deceptions on talk.religion.bahai > > and elsewhere. > > It is nice to see that Fred can actually write a real posting here. Now if we can get Fred to quit cross-posting to people who don't want to here or see of him. I have an idea. I think Fred needs to quit hiding behind his > usual spam postings of Patrick Henry. So ..... here goes...... 'give me > liberty or, > give Fred a call: > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXX > and as you can see, I have cross-posted this to all of Fred Preselected > news-servers. Let your fingers do the walking. > Mark "Mark Elderkin" wrote in message news:hH1v4.125$1j4.6711@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net... > Pat and all others concerned,> I probably misstepped the guidelines by posting Freddys Facts ........ > but I think it will give Fred a chance to realize that he is not-so > anonomous anymore and might wish to quit cross-posting. I understand that > there are a lot of crazys out there that might not like the things he > regularly posts and now he can't hide behind his mothers dress. I have > posted my own phone number before and will always make myself available for > anyones input. Thanks. > Always Remember... Let your fingers do the walking. > Mark Path: sn-us!sn-xit-04!supernews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!128.230.129.106!news.ma xwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!news.acay.com.a u!pmq.intercoast.com.au From: "Mark Elderkin" Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai References: Subject: Re: REPOST - Petition for a Bahai Reformation Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <3a96e1c0.0@news.acay.com.au> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:23:44 +1100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.27.214.6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 982972465 203.27.214.6 (Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:54:25 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:54:25 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Xref: sn-us alt.religion.bahai:23378 talk.religion.bahai:21826 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Elderkin" Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 5:23 PM Subject: Re: REPOST - Petition for a Bahai Reformation > Fred, > I think it is about time you stop cross-posting to the others. They > assume you are a Baha'i and get pissed off at us. It's about time I get >out your address and phone number and I'll cross-post it here and >I'll make sure to include every interesting NG I can find. I was >presented with a list of para-military groups that have NGs and I'll >include those. I've done it before so don't feel I wouldn't again. You>need to realise that you are causing harm and we're tired of it. > MEE > " > > From secretariat@bwc.org Sat Feb 24 04:02:34 2001 Received: from [192.115.146.1] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id MHotMailBC60EDB9005D40043195C07392010EA73; Sat Feb 24 04:02:34 2001 Received: by bwcpo.bwc.org with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <1W8X3S09>; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:49:08 +0200 Message-ID: <234FCCF3FAEFD21192270090271F45D80386EC2E@bwcpo003.bwc.org> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bah=E1=27=ED_World_Centre?= To: "'f_glaysher@hotmail.com'" Subject: RE: Bahais begin Offensive of Lies, Hate, Misrepresentations, Att acks Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:49:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bahá'í World Centre" To: Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 6:49 AM Subject: RE: Bahais begin Offensive of Lies, Hate, Misrepresentations, Attacks Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message has been received at the Bahá'í World Centre. Electronic Communication Operations, Bahá'í World Centre ---------- Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.hom e.com!news.home.com!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfee d.ozemail.com.au!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!news.acay.com.au!pmq.intercoast.com.au From: "Mark Elderkin" Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai References: Subject: Re: - bahai - Renewed Harassment Lines: 26X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <3a9ad12d.0@news.acay.com.au> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:02:26 +1100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.27.214.6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 983224912 203.27.214.6 (Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:01:52 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:01:52 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.religion.bahai:4515 talk.religion.bahai:21702 From: "Mark Elderkin" Subject: Re: - bahai - Renewed Harassment Date: Monday, February 26, 2001 5:02 PM Let's see.............. by harassment you mean I put your real phone number and address on ARB/TRB about a year ago. Yes I did that. NO regrets what-so-ever. I can only hope you heard from some of the people you continually spammed and cross-posted to. Grow up Glaysher.......... Your wimpy ranting here every other day have almost no merit. When I posted last year, a few told me that I had broken this and that rule and that it would put me in court and I would lose my ISP and on and on. Nothing at all occurred. ISP couldn't have cared...... No anything. And as far as inspiration I use the posts from other NGs who post here complaining about your antics. And if you think I care about my phone or address being posted here........... Mark Elderkin 43 Moruya Drive, Port Macquarie, NSW call international: 061265842150 I guess it all boils down to the issue of the morality of your actions.................. I don't mind taking responsibility for mine. MEE Nima, I would appreciate your forwarding his phone number and address to me at f_glaysher@hotmail.com Frederick Glaysher -------- Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!ns w.nnrp.telstra.net!news.acay.com.au!pmq.intercoast.com.au From: "Mark Elderkin" Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai References: <3a9ad12d.0@news.acay.com.au> <905580C9Ddrwalkerfsandpcom@202.76.4.10> <97feei$mvl$1@gnamma.connect.com.au> <905588063drwalkerfsandpcom@202.76.4.10> <97g0do$seq$1@gnamma.connect.com.au> <3a9ba495@news-uk.onetel.net.uk> Subject: Re: - bahai - Renewed Harassment Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <3a9c5864.0@news.acay.com.au> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:51:41 +1100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.27.214.6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 983325064 203.27.214.6 (Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:51:04 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:51:04 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond Direct Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.religion.bahai:4526 talk.religion.bahai:21739 To all concerned.......... AS I see there has been more trash exposed, might I just set the record straight. I am not a Yank living in Australia but have been an Australian living in Australia since January 1992. Passport available on request. Now it might be asked as to why this is important to anyone other than myself and family but it does seem that it must be an issue for someone. If it was said to make a point then I'm afraid that the point is mute when it can be totally dismissed. I'm happy to live in and to be a 'fair-dinkum die' Australian. Cheers........MEE > >Mark is yank living in OZ, not an Aussie. -------- Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.hom e.com!news.home.com!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfee d.ozemail.com.au!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!news.acay.com.au!203.32.99.25 From: "Mark Elderkin" Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.israel,talk.religion.baha i,talk.religion.misc References: Subject: Re: { bahai } Why I Crosspost to Three Newsgroups Lines: 51 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <3a9ec8df.0@news.acay.com.au> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:16:08 +1100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.27.214.6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telstra.net X-Trace: nsw.nnrp.telstra.net 983484931 203.27.214.6 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 09:15:31 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 09:15:31 EST Organization: Customer of Telstra Big Pond DirectXref: uni-berlin.de alt.religion.bahai:4540 soc.culture.iranian:330979 soc.culture.israel:380858 talk.religion.bahai:21762 talk.religion.misc:496483 My dear Fred............ apparently you didn't take me seriously................. "Frederick Glaysher" wrote in message news:t9se9tkua39287@corp.supernews.com... > My crossposts to soc.culture.israel, soc.culture.iranian, > and talk.religion.misc are entirely within the acceptable > parameters for crossposting to newsgroups related to > the subject at hand: > > The bahai faith *began* in Iran in 1844, the major bahai > religious sites and institutions are *located *in *Israel*, > *all* religions may join discussion on talk.religion.misc, > and the unsuspecting public ought to be informed and > have the opportunity to judge and decide the facts for itself. > > It should be evident to any intelligent person that bahai > fundamentalists have a hidden agenda and their self-interest > in mind when they malign me and many, many other people on > talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, and elsewhere. > > Since fundamentalists among my fellow bahais have always relied > on their ability to operate one way in one country and another > elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes that possible, as > dramatically demonstrated with the former USSR and China, > the universal house of "justice," like other totalitarian regimes, > will have to confront and answer for the consequences of their own > hypocrisy. Their slandering me for "spamming" also won't prevent > perceptive people from realizing what's really going on.... > > Those interested in judging independently for themselves my > background and whether I'm "unbalanced," as bahai fundamentalist > struggle to portray me, may do so by reading my Biographical Note: > https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm > > I believe it is my duty, bahai and otherwise, to inform my fellow > citizens, local and global, of the appalling and incessant hypocrisy > that lies behind the deceptive, progressive facade that the uhj so > often fobs off on the unsuspecting public.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience> https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/index.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:49 AM Subject: bahai - Backbiting & Slandering US Academics In addition to below, be sure to see FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AmicusC.htm As a sample of the extreme views opposing free speech and academic freedom held by the uhj and its fundamentalists on talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere, see below the text of the uhj's letter circulated behind Cole's back, slandering and backbiting him within the bahai community. There have now been many American bahai academics who have received this type of treatment and been driven out of the bahai faith in one way or another, a fact the uhj seeks to conceal from the United Nations and US government officials. For Cole's comments and response, see this link: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---- 3 August 1999 From: Department of the Secretariat Baha'i World Center Dear Baha'i Friend, Clearly, no one would dispute the right of Dr. Cole to write and publish whatever work a publisher is prepared to handle. Nor has anyone questioned the right of a Baha'i who is interested in such a book to purchase it. To suggest that the House of Justice is saying otherwise would be to seriously misconstrue the nature of its concern . . . As a participant in various Internet discussion groups over the past five years, and particularly in the last year or two, you cannot but be aware from these exchanges that Dr. Cole has embarked on a deliberate assault against the Baha'i Cause, in which he has not hesitated to attack its institutions, to misrepresent its fundamental teachings, and to abuse thetrust of Baha'is who had been led to believe that they were engaged with him in a detached and scholarly search for the truth. These same Internetexchanges exposed you, like other participants, to a flood of calumny and invective against a great many of your fellow believers, on the part of Dr. Cole, that is scarcely credible in rational discourse. Had such a book as Modernity and the Millennium been written by a disinterested non-Baha'i scholar, its misconception of the nature of Baha'u'llah's Mission and its other shortcomings would have represented no more than understandable weaknesses of an honest attempt to explore a religious phenomenon as yet little understood in the West. Indeed, in this context, such an attempt to make the Baha'i Faith comprehensible to the Western academic mind, however inadequate it might appear to knowledgeable Baha'i scholars, would surely have earned its author a measure of genuine Baha'i appreciation for the writing and research skills deployed in devising it. As you -- like other participants in certain Internet discussion groups -- are well aware, however, the book's author is not a disinterested scholar. Rather, he is a deeply embittered individual who, as his book was in preparation, had just denounced in the most intemperate language an apparent twenty-year allegiance to Baha'u'llah, in the wake of a failed attempt on his part to impose his private ideological agenda on the Baha'i community's study of Baha'u'llah's Message. Modernity and the Millennium represents an effort to provide the current stage of this long-running scheme with the underpinnings of scholarly rationalization. What is this rationalization? Although distorted by its evasion of Baha'i Texts that contradict its main assertions, and blurred by reliance on speculations peculiar to its author's purpose, the thesis appears to run somewhat as follows: Baha'u'llah's work and Writings represent essentially one of several efforts by Middle East thinkers to work out a "response" to the challenges posed by European modernity in the form of rationalism, revolution, nationalism, economic upheaval, feminism and other contemporary developments. Although Oriental in origin, this particular "response", in contrast to various others, was unusually "progressive", "liberal", "idealistic", even "radical". Because it "grew up" in a congenial modernist era, its Author was able gradually to adjust and revise the ideas with which He had been "grappling", through benefiting (in a manner generally insinuated rather than explicitly stated) from successive interactions with other thinkers and movements. By 1862, apparently in order to deal with the problem of religious exclusivity in the Muslim world, and in response to some form of "private mystical experience", He "decided to make a prophetic claim of his own" . . . The Covenant, the distinguishing feature of Baha'u'llah's Revelation, has been made the central target of this effort (a maneuver that Dr. Cole's book is at particular pains to shore up). Although forced to acknowledge theappointments of `Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian as Interpreters of Baha'u'llah's Message, every effort has been made to call such authoritative interpretation into question wherever it presents a problem for the notions being promoted. Similarly, although ostensibly acknowledging that the Universal House of Justice is Head of the Baha'i Faith today, this opposition has tried by every means possible to undermine the broad authority conferred in Baha'u'llah's own words and emphasized in the Master's Will and Testament. (In Dr. Cole's book, this agenda makes its appearance in the conclusion: namely, that the Faith founded by Baha'u'llah has failed in its mission because, like "the Khomeinist state in Iran", it has been somehow captured by "fundamentalists", by which term Dr. Cole has repeatedly characterized the members of the Universal House of Justice.) . . . With loving Baha'i greetings, Department of the Secretariat ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:52 AM Subject: soc.religion.bahai CENSORSHIP soc.religion.bahai CENSORSHIP Robert J. Pease, December 5, 1998: "I support your efforts to expose SRB as a fundamentalist group." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb84.htm Ron House: "I think the following is a clear case of malicious rejection of an article by the worst of the moderators of soc.religion.bahai." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb53.htm Timothy Mulligan: "(Sigh) Fred, I'm beginning to think you're right about those SRB moderators." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb59.htm RobertNik: "these guys are pompous arseholes IMHO." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb54.htm Bruce Burrill: "What are Baha'i afraid of?" https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb60.htm Zuteflute: "Frankly I could not see anything in the letter I wrote which would prompt someone to ask whether or not I am a Baha'i." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb50.htm YU ZIR: "But as an outsider, I can perhaps see the point Fred Glaysher is making, and which point none of SRB's defenders seem to address." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb46.htm Matthew Cromer: "The current moderators regulate the contents--posting articles which they agree with...." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb47.htm Kavosh Soltani, December 9, 1998:"So many Bahais on these forumshave shown to be ready to forget logic and reason, ignore clear evidence and Word of God, and come up with exactly the same line of tired and inaccurate excuses and arguments to justify their position, that it can not be a simple coincidence."https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb77.htm Shakti3, December 4, 1998: "Sorry to hear that you've been surpressed on srb. Your comments were alway very "right on." Altho it does not surprise me one bit, seeing the way these newsgroups operate." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Ex7.htm Harold Shinsato: "It seems like there is an oppression over the Baha'i Faith." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb33.htm Steve Tomljenovic, December 3, 1998: "The moderators are a bit overzealous at times. Since all the controversy started, it has gotten worse." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb79.htm Laeterna: "To say I was flabberghasted at this type of "moderating" was putting it mildly indeed." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/censored2.htm Robin Peters: "I think you're to be commended for your persistence in the face of consistent censorship." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb43.htm jgoldberg: "I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. " https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb57.htm Ruletherod, November 17, 1998: "Too much damage has already been done in the name and to the name of Baha'u'llah by right-wing administrative bullies, linear-thinking apologists, and doctrinaire-fundamentalists. You can't just blame it all on the critics." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb76.htm Many other similar messages may be found on my web site under soc.religion.bahai censorship. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb.htm -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:54 AM Subject: bahai - BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Despite the slander of many fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, I have been a member of the bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my main bahai page. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. The reason the uhj allows and encourages fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to backbite and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet, and elsewhere may be discovered in the four messages below: To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ72498.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/uhj12-10-99.htm Open Petition for Baha'i Reformation February 8, 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Reformation.htm My Request Not to Receive the American Bahai 1996 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/index.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:57 AM Subject: bahai - "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." In 1996 my request to the circulation department for the American Bahai, repeated twice and perhaps a third time, read, "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." I had torn off the preprinted address change label regularly published on the back page of the American Bahai and mailed it into the address given for subscription changes. I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be removed from the mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, no threat, etc.... Dermod Ryder's speculation that willingness to receive the American Bahai has become compulsory should give pause.... Again, note well, I used the address on the back of the American Bahai given specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write the nsa, its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the simplest of requests: remove my name and address from your mailing list. Not a word or suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith, nor any criticism of it whatsoever, real nor implied. I conveyed my wishes to the proper address, as announced in the American Bahai itself. That I received a response back from an entirely different address speaks volumes, as they say. After six years, I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. I've scanned the letter so others might read the original. I am not about to accept the slander and backbiting of fanatics and fundamentalists nor allow them to provoke me into one action or another. I prefer the facts: Again, I declared my belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976 and notified the nsa, who sent me back the declaration card available on my homepage. I have never notified them otherwise. They, as distinguished from liars and sycophants online, have never notified me to the contrary. Scanned orignials at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm The other two letters were related to the Detroit local spiritual assembly and its junk mail. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:58 AM Subject: Baha'u'llah is the Prophet of God for mankind in this day Baha'u'llah is the Prophet of God for mankind in this day and age. He Himself laid the foundation for the Universal House of Justice, hampered, thank God, though it be, by the loss of the Guardian. I trust that, in the long run of history, He will not leave his institution to itself but will lead it back, through perhaps the compelling Vision of his Writings and the devoted consciences of his followers, to its humble, modest, and balanced role as his legislative body. I have never repudiated my belief in Baha'u'llah nor the legitimacy of his institutions. That some benighted individual bahais have temporarily distorted the bahai faith into a hideous form of fanaticism and fundamentalism does not negate the Truth of his Revelation and its saving grace for this nihilistic desert. https://fglaysher.com/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 8:00 AM Subject: bahai - My crossposts to soc.culture.israel, soc.culture.iranian,and talk.religion.misc My crossposts to soc.culture.israel, soc.culture.iranian,and talk.religion.misc are entirely within the acceptable parameters for crossposting to newsgroups related to the subject at hand: The bahai faith *began* in Iran in 1844, the major bahai religious sites and institutions are *located* in HAIFA *Israel*, *all* religions may join discussion on talk.religion.misc. The unsuspecting public ought to be informed and have the opportunity to judge and decide the facts for itself. It should be evident to any intelligent person that bahai fundamentalists have a hidden agenda and their self-interest in mind when they malign me and many, many other people on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet.org, and elsewhere. Since fundamentalists among my fellow bahais have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere, and the Internet now no longer makes that possible, as dramatically demonstrated with the former USSR and China, the "universal" house of "justice," like other totalitarian regimes, will have to confront and answer for the consequences of its own hypocrisy. Slandering me for "spamming" also won't prevent perceptive people from realizing what's really going on.... Those interested in judging independently for themselves my background and whether I'm "unbalanced," as bahai fundamentalist struggle to portray me, may do so by reading my Biographical Note: https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm I believe it is my duty, bahai and otherwise, to inform my fellow citizens, local and global, of the appalling and incessant hypocrisy that lies behind the deceptively progressive facade that the uhj regularly fobs off on the unsuspecting public.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 8:04 AM Subject: bahai - Columbia University Press Modernity and the Millennium by Juan Ricardo Cole Columbia Univ Press (available on Amazon) In his conclusion, which would never have passed the system of censorship, "Bahai review," that the UHJ imposes on all publications brought out under its tight control, Professor Cole, of the Department of History at the University of Michigan, quite accurately identifies the distortions that have been wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings: "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriarchy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed." (196) Cole himself and many others have suffered at the hands of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the religion: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement." (201) These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai on Usenet for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. Both my and Cole's websites provide essential documentation along these lines. It should be noted that the Universal House of Justice has actively worked through the BCCA (Bahai Computer and Communications Association) to suppress all links to websites with other than its own "comprehensive" point of view on such major portals as Yahoo.com, Excite.com, and other search engines. The UHJ has gone even further by advising Bahais to remove any link whatsoever to Professor Cole's website. As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. The UHJ is also in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums of public discussion. Professor Cole's Modernity and the Millennium will remain, for many years to come, the most important book available on the Baha'i Faith. His discussion of its historical development within the intellectual milieu of progressive 19th Century thought is particularly brilliant and insightful. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 8:15 AM Subject: FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions for Alt.Religion.Bahai, Talk.Religion.Bahai FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions for Alt.Religion.Bahai, Talk.Religion.Bahai This FAQ will be reposted approximately every two weeks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ People with only web access might want to use www.google.com It offers reading and posting capabilities for people who can't directly access alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai. Alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai are available on America Online (AOL) Keyword, Newsgroups, then search for alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai An unmoderated Italian Bahai newgroup is now available: it.cultura.religioni.bahai If your ISP does not offer talk.religion.bahai, follow this news.groupie advice: "If your ISP doesn't have the group shortly, I suggest that you ask the newsmaster there to add it (Try news@isp.net, or newsmaster@isp.net) Ask politely. Include the msg ID of the results posting, and of the newgroup msg." Dave Cornejo's RESULT posting: https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=431106082&CONTEXT=918305125.781648012&hi tnum=0 David Lawrence's newgroup msg creating talk.religion.bahai: https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=434026333&CONTEXT=918304600.713490686&hi tnum=3 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ NOTE: Not all people agree on the interpretations given below. Question #1 "Why create arb or t.r.b.?" ANSWER #1: Because many people believe they experienced or are continuing to experience censorship when attempting to post to soc.religion.bahai. See the quotations from Abdu'l-Baha: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ANSWER #2: Because the Bahai writings support free speech and religious conscience. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ANSWER #3: [fill in the blank according to your own opinion.] Question #2: "Why do the srb moderators oppose trb?" ANSWER: Perhaps they'll supply an answer to place here. (Three years later their NO votes are their only answer.) Question #3: "Are Bahais opposed to freedom of speech andconscience?" ANSWER: Despite glowing words of love and support for other people's opinions, despite the Universal House of Justice stating at least publicly it is not opposed to an unmoderated forum, the record of actual behavior by Bahais and on soc.religion.bahai and the experience of TENS of THOUSANDS of Bahais and people who have left the Bahai Faith give serious reason for concern. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chronology of major events: talk.religion.bahai ---------------------------------------------------------------------- January 17, 1997: The 1st proposal for talk.religion.bahai was submitted to news.announce.newgroups. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/1stRFD.htm Early March 1997: Mark Towfiq, chairman of the BCCA, the Bahai Computer and Communication Association, posts to three Bahai-only mailing lists a call for Bahais to vote NO against talk.religion.bahai. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Towfiq.htm March 1997: soc.religion.bahai bans all discussion of talk.religion.bahai from its newsgroup. This ban is still in effect more than a year and a half later. March 31, 1997: The 1st proposal was defeated 157 YES to 691 NO. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/1stRESULT.htm April 3, 1997: Jonathan Grobe, a non-Bahai, creates alt.religion.bahai. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/arb.htm October 14, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases a message stating it has no objection to unmoderated newsgroups: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ1.htm November 1997: At a time when discussion was highly favorable in support of talk.religion.bahai, the BCCA deprives Frederick Glaysher of access to the private Bahai-only mailing list bahai-discuss and all of its other lists, inflaming Bahai passions against trb. See bahai-discuss archived files and correspondence between Frederick Glaysher and the BCCA committee: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/archive.htm December 19, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases a message that suggests it does not understand the nature of Usenet interest polling: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ2.htm January 12, 1998: The 2nd proposal for talk.religion.bahai was submitted. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/2ndRFD.htm February 22, 1998: The 2nd proposal was defeated 109 YES to 65 NO. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/2ndRESULT.htm May 25, 1998: srb bans all messages from Frederick Glaysher that contain his signature file: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb23.htm September 9,1998: America Online (AOL) places a Bahai-inspired TOS against Frederick Glaysher; AOL removes the TOS after considering both sides of the issue, i.e., Bahai messages attacking and threatening him and the experience of others: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm September 14, 1998: soc.religion.bahai extends its ban on Frederick Glaysher's signature file to include all signature files and URLs from all posters, allowing only email addresses and the name of the poster: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srbban.htm October 14, 1998: Soc.religion.bahai moderator Bill Hyman backbites and casts aspersions on proponent Ron House and attempts to undermine the new support for the "neutral" RFD: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb67.htm December 3, 1998: The Call For Votes (CFV) was posted to news.announce.newgroups and news.groups for the 3rd interest poll for talk.religion.bahai. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/3rdRFD.htm December 7, 1998: Bahai scholar Susan Maneck begins her NO vote campaign on AOL and alt.religion.bahai. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm January 10, 1999: Talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/3rdRESULT.htm It should be noted that talk.religion.bahai eventually passed despite of the opposition of Bahais. The annotated RESULT may be read at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/3rdRESULT.htm The annotated NO voters list may be read at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NOvoters3rd.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------ For past discussion of censorship on soc.religion.bahai and other issues, including censorship within the Bahai community, see the website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 8:19 AM Subject: Re: Interreligious Dialogue -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3baf8e0f@isis.cybersurf.net... In a world of religious diversity, one of the first steps toward finding connections and building bridges across ideological chasms must be the acquisition of accurate knowledge. This may sound obvious, but even in regions where such information can be easily accessed, often it is not. Diana Eck, director of the Pluralism Project at Harvard University, has found that in the United States there is a high degree of "religious identity" but a much lower rate of "religious literacy."10 While knowledge does not necessarily create sympathy, as Marcus Braybrooke has pointed out,11 the hope is that it will lead to greater tolerance, and dialogue plays an important role in such movement forward. The emphasis on tolerance can been seen in the gradual broadening of approaches to interreligious work that occurred during the twentieth century, as described in a Christian context by theologian John Hick: It has become common in Christian discussions to distinguish three main responses to the problem presented by the spiritual reality of the other great world faiths: exclusivism (salvation is exclusive to Christians), inclusivism (all salvation is Christian salvation, but the benefits of Jesus' atoning death are available in principle to all people, whether Christian or not), and pluralism (the great world faiths, including Christianity, are different and independently authentic spheres of revelation and salvation). The majority of theologians have moved in recent decades from exclusivism to inclusivism. But a growing minority now think this insufficient, seeing it as a milder and less obvious form of the religious imperialism of the old exclusivism.12 details: https://www.bci.org/edmonton.bahais/interreligious_dialogue.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 8:07 AM Subject: bahai - Re: What is going on here? "When they falsely and outrageously threatened me and my friends with being declared covenant breakers in order to close down Talisman I, in my view they relieved me of all further responsibility to them. They are not my leaders, and they do not stand for my values, nor do they stand for the values of Baha'u'llah or `Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi. There is no further reason for me not to discuss the things wrong with the way the Baha'i faith is being run, just as I would discuss the things wrong with the way any institution is run with which I have had a long association." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole8.htm Juan Cole Thursday, June 11, 1998 -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Nima Alavi" wrote in message news:9p28ju$4er$1@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au... > What is wrong with all you people > Settle down! > Remeber this? > "If religion happends to be the cause of Disunity, Seperation or Hatred it > better it not be there at all" > WHY???? Because the whole purpose of religion is UNITY!!!! So stop fighting > with each other! > > Nima ALAVI > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 8:09 AM Subject: Re: B Questions about the Bahai faith. The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "BUSHBADEE" wrote in message news:20010929044454.09370.00001306@mb-ca.aol.com... > I am interested in the Bahai faith. > > I have a few questions that I would hope some one of that faith would answere. > > I would appreciate if they would email me the answeres to the address below. > > 1 Does the Bahai faith accept the Koran? > > 2 Why do Muslems seem to have such a special hate for those of the Bahai faith. > > 3What is the relationship between the Bahai faith and Israel. > I understand that the Bahai faith is alive and thriving in Israel. > > Thank you. > . > . > I DO NOT FOLLOW MANY OF THESE NEWS GROUPS > To answere me address mail to > Bushbadee@aol.com ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 8:09 AM To: BUSHBADEE Subject: Re: B Questions about the Bahai faith. The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "BUSHBADEE" wrote in message news:20010929044454.09370.00001306@mb-ca.aol.com... > I am interested in the Bahai faith. > > I have a few questions that I would hope some one of that faith would answere. > > I would appreciate if they would email me the answeres to the address below. > > 1 Does the Bahai faith accept the Koran? > > 2 Why do Muslems seem to have such a special hate for those of the Bahai faith. > > 3What is the relationship between the Bahai faith and Israel. > I understand that the Bahai faith is alive and thriving in Israel. > > Thank you. > . > . > I DO NOT FOLLOW MANY OF THESE NEWS GROUPS > To answere me address mail to > Bushbadee@aol.com ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 8:10 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Fundamentlalist censorship on AOL -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "BUSHBADEE" wrote in message news:20010929045451.09370.00001313@mb-ca.aol.com... > or the same tactics as are used on AOL in everyday bahai community, > see FULL TEXT: > New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 > https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuit.htm > https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuitResponse.htm > https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm > > > It would appear that the sites you mention have been blocked. > . > . > I DO NOT FOLLOW MANY OF THESE NEWS GROUPS > To answere me address mail to > Bushbadee@aol.com ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 8:10 AM To: BUSHBADEE Subject: Re: bahai - Fundamentlalist censorship on AOL -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "BUSHBADEE" wrote in message news:20010929045451.09370.00001313@mb-ca.aol.com... > or the same tactics as are used on AOL in everyday bahai community, > see FULL TEXT: > New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 > https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuit.htm > https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuitResponse.htm > https://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/fglaysher/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm > https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/AmicusC.htm > > > It would appear that the sites you mention have been blocked. > . > . > I DO NOT FOLLOW MANY OF THESE NEWS GROUPS > To answere me address mail to > Bushbadee@aol.com ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 9:58 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Continuing Spamming by Fundamentalist Stalker "Randy Burns" wrote in message news:sNmt7.355$u9.56280@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > I guess it's Mark's turn to harass Fred. Funny I thought it was Robert's > turn after Roger, but I guess Mark is just butting in. > > Cheers, Randy Randy, A pleasure to see someone else discerns the methods used here by my fellow bahais.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > -- > > Pat Kohli wrote in message > news:3BB5DC05.2E927C0A@ameritel.net... > > Allahu Abha! > > > > Mark, long time, no chat! Freddy has taken to harassing Roger and David > in your > > absence. Same stuff, different day. > > > > Mark Elderkin wrote: > > > > > You still manage to post lies and innuendos that you have fabricated > over > > > the years. You were never attacked or slandered by myself or anyone I > know. > > > You will find that when you decide to continue the treatments....... > these > > > feelings will subside and you can get back to some type of normality. It > has > > > been years......... > > > M > > > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" > > > wrote in message news:9ov3ho$f1ajb$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > > > > All of the allegations made in this message remain true even now > > > > in the fall of 2001: > > > > > > > > (Spam chops, snipped) > > > > Fred, through your continued spamming you regularly validate all charges > against > > yourself as a netabusing, regurgisposting spamster, who, despite repeated > > lectures and warnings, tramples the rights of many to repeat continusously > their > > own POV, (usually in substantiatlly the same terms which you previously > used). > > The simple principle at work here, Fred, is that when you do what you do, > you > > get what you get. If you are happy with your results, then stick with > your > > tactics. Should you _ever_ want more credibility, make some effort to > follow > > the rules that everyone else follows. If you enjoy _no_ credibility, then > keep > > doing whatever you feel like, whenever you feel like it, _please_! > > > > All, please be sure to trim headers, particularly on follow-ups after any > > notorious cross-posting spamsters. > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:14 AM Subject: bahai - TERRORISM - Testimonies re US bahai community "I'm glad you acknowledge the terrorized state of the U.S. Baha'i community. Now, does or does not Haifa endorse the state of affairs and support those responsible for it?" K. Paul Johnson, full text at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Johnson5.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 7:25 AM Subject: Re: bahai - TERRORISM 2 - Testimonies re US bahai community "A community was being subjected to terror, the PR ramifications were horrendous, Terry had powerful friends intervening on his behalf, and the House had plausible deniability because the letter was written on their behalf rather than by them directly." K. Paul Johnson, full text at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Johnson25.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 6:47 AM Subject: Re: bahai - TERRORISM 3 - Testimonies re US bahai community "Obviously, there are thousands of Baha'is who do not share the current uhj's fundamentalist mindset, and they can't put them all on trial, so most of you are probably safe enough. Their tactic appears to be to identify persons who are persistent posters and who therefore are becoming "prominent," with whom they disagree about their vision of the Baha'i faith, and then to target them in hopes of either silencing them or forcing them out of the religion. They probably also hope that a few such publicized cases will scare every other non-fundamentalist into silence, as well. If so, they haven't dealt with many Americans." Juan Cole, December 03, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/anonymous.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 7:12 AM Subject: Re: bahai - TERRORISM - Testimonies re US bahai community Where is the EVIDENCE? It's at the link below.... -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Timothy Casey" wrote in message news:3bbaaa1c$1@news.iprimus.com.au... > Given that terrorism entails random bombings and massacres such as are so > characteristic of IRA and Orangemen and bloodthirsty fanatics - This claim > has caused me some confusion. Are you saying that Baha'is are busy chucking > bombs and firing on crowds of people, and hijacking planes? If so, where are > the arrests and investigations on these hot leads you have? > > :^) > > -- > Timothy Casey > South Australia > worloq@iprimus.com.au > > Formerly: > casey@smart.net.au > > > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" > wrote in message news:9p79aa$gp743$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > > "I'm glad you acknowledge the terrorized state of the U.S. > > Baha'i community. Now, does or does not Haifa endorse the > > state of affairs and support those responsible for it?" > > K. Paul Johnson, full text at > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Johnson5.htm > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 7:19 AM Subject: Re: bahai - TERRORISM - Testimonies re US bahai community THANK YOU, Dermod, for stating all this, and bringing to this discussion for unique perspective and experience from Ireland on these matters in the bahai faith.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9pen5e$ibu17$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > > "Timothy Casey" wrote in message > news:3bbaaa1c$1@news.iprimus.com.au... > > Given that terrorism entails random bombings and massacres such as are so > > characteristic of IRA and Orangemen and bloodthirsty fanatics - This claim > > has caused me some confusion. Are you saying that Baha'is are busy > chucking > > bombs and firing on crowds of people, and hijacking planes? If so, where > are > > the arrests and investigations on these hot leads you have? > > Timothy, > > You're making the mistake of only seeing terrorism in its most violent > manifestation. For the terrorist the real objective is in the knock on > effects of the outrage. For example- all of the major bombing outrages here > have been accompanied by series of bomb scares, designed to cause disruption > and fear. Another tactic is the random phone call to a store or factory - > the person who answers the phone is told that the caller represents a major > paramilitary operation and is "advising" that it is going to kill all of the > Catholics/Protestants who are employed by that store or factory. Some > warped people take vicarious delight in such tactics and justify them in the > name of the "cause" to which they are affiliated. Can you imagine the > effect such a call has on the recipient - the fear that is generated? > > Outrages generate fear - threats of further outrages generate even more > fear. A number of telephone calls can close a city down for a day > especially in the wake of a major outrage; attacks on the minority > community, whence sprang the terrorists, increase, driving that community > into the hands of the terrorists for "protection." > > Compare that to the Bahai community - regular CB/liberal (to the average > BIGS there is no significant difference - both generate fear and loathing) > contacts being reported generates fear, expulsions justify that fear, > driving the community to "attack" those who threaten it. To somebody like > me that has lived in a society dominated (at times) by terrorists, the > situation within the Bahai community is so similar that I fail to understand > why the BIGS cannot see it and rise up against it, for in their hands, > ultimately is the solution. It's a situation that is slowly destroying the > Bahai community both in its own eyes and in the eyes of the world. Because > the peoples of the world generally prefer moderation, one liberal/dissident > Bahai counter-terrorist can do a lot of damage. > > The solution is apparent but it is one rejected by the powers that be. They > think that they can win their war by "military means" - that they can drive > out and/or subdue the voices of opposition. I can assure them that this is > not the case. These types of conflict can only be stopped and resolved by > negotiation and compromise. As there is no sign of this within the AO > (typical terrorists are extremely dedicated to the "Cause" and brook no > compromise) the conflict goes on and on and will go on and on. > > This is one thing that interests me about the AO and amuses me immensely. > An integral part of the most progressive religion in the world which > preaches consultation as a means of practising conflict resolution, asserts > its "authority" to such an extent that it refuses to negotiate with those it > perceives as enemies. Yet throughout the world the only progress that is > being made in conflict resolution is when the parties are dragged to the > table and persuaded or forced to negotiate an end to their differences. The > House of Horrors rejects all such process preferring to attempt terror > tactics to keep the community in line. That succeeds up to a point - the > point where recruitment staggers and slows then goes into negative growth, > the point where the sinews of war (i.e. finance) starts to dry up, the point > where its apologists begin to get shell shocked and waver in its defence as > their inherent contradictions emerge. > > The Internet gave a voice to many oppressed BIGS - some paid the price for > their views by being expelled or otherwise made subject to terror tactics. > But as is always the case in conflict when the reasonable (those who are > most open to compromise and negotiation) are terrorised, they become > marginalised and cast out in favour of the warrior class, whose sole aim is > destruction. They will not destroy the BF but they will wreak immense > damage to the extent that it will never achieve its mission objective > because it does not deserve to. Not for nothing were the BIGS warned that > the real enemies are those within for they are the best trained and armed - > he who understands best not his own cause but that of his enemy is best > placed to secure victory. > > Consider the cost of this conflict, which, like most, is not at all > necessary were the principles of toleration to be practised. The > progressive is always derided - as a result no progressive will ever mouth > his opinions without being aware that he is in for a rough ride. He knows > and accepts that - as a result he is a tough foe not given to easy > surrender. Oppose him and he will fight back with ten times the force of > his opponent for he is truly dedicated to what he believes in. The AO can't > win this one yet, perversely, it can't lose it either so what is at stake is > the amount of damage that the conflict will cause and the undoubted fact > that the AO is so perverse that it will not seek to resolve matters other > than through violence. Or, to put it another way - you saw the damage a few > terrorists wrought in N.Y. and Washington - now equate that to the damage > done day and daily to the BF by a mere handful of posters to the Internet > who are merely telling the truth and seeking tolerance rather than bigotry. > > Terrorism never wins, the extremists are buried by history for the meek do > inherit the earth. In future decades Bahais will look back at this conflict > and wonder why it was ever fought, for the principles espoused by the > liberals will win through, as they always do and will be enshrined. The > more perspicacious will damn the current AO for allowing and indulging in a > conflict that could have been but was not resolved until a time when massive > damage had been done from which the BF has not recovered. > > Dermod. > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 7:31 AM Subject: Re: bahai - TERRORISM 4 - Testimonies re US bahai community "Baha'i intellectuals don't just 'lose their faith in God' or 'lose their faith in Baha'u'llah' all on their own. They are pushed out by the narrow-minded and authoritarian personalities who so dominate the Baha'i administrative machinery. People are sensitive, especially about their private religious beliefs, and what the hate-filled Baha'i rightwingers have discovered, to their delight, is that it is pretty easy to so injure the feelings of a liberal-minded person that you drive him or her out of the faith and destroy his or her belief. No one who hasn't felt the betrayal of having one's own religious officials suddenly turn on one and put a knife in one's back can imagine what it feels like." Professor Juan Cole, October 05, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole20.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 7:44 AM Subject: FBI & CIA - ATTN - TERRORISM & the bahai faith Please see the current thread regarding terrorism in the bahai faith on talk.religion.bahai on Usenet for extensive documentation on the deceit, suppression, and terrorist tactics regularly used by the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais in the USA and elsewhere. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 7:14 AM Subject: Re: bahai - TERRORISM 5 - Testimonies re US bahai community "These are the people who sent their man to my own home to interrogate me and then had me (a well known professor of Middle East Studies at a major university!) threatened with being shunned unless I fell silent! If that isnt' the coercion of conscience then I don't know what is!" Professor Juan Cole, January 31, 1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole72.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 6:53 AM Subject: Re: bahai - TERRORISM 6 - Testimonies re US bahai community "Shunning is the marker of a cult . . . note that these are all relatively small cults and none of them will ever really amount to anything in mainstream society." "I think shunning is a human rights abuse. It may be legal (in non-tort situations), but then, lots of human rights abuses are legal. I don't see the difference between the Mafia organizing a conspiracy to have someone's restaurant boycotted unless he pays protection money, and a religious organization threatening to prevent someone from seeing his coreligionist relatives at reunions unless he is blindly obedient to them. Both are forms of coercion that invade privacy and detract from the autonomy and dignity of the individual." Professor Juan Cole, February 12, 1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole54.htm I myself see no difference between the malice and deceit that actuated the terrorists and the endemic dishonesty of bahai ao fundamentalists.... The underlying dynamics are the same. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Ron House" wrote in message news:3BBD1586.470602DA@usq.edu.au... > Dermod Ryder wrote: some things. > > Sorry Dermod, much as I usually applaud your principled comments, I > cannot possibly agree with any comparisons whatsoever between the Baha'i > administration and the terrorists. There is a universe of difference > between those who try to frighten someone with a threat of being > shunned, and those who murder 6,000 innocents. Conflation of terms, > levelling of differences, loss of meaning of words, is a primary part of > the doublespeak that is increasingly making it impossible to get honest > information across to people nowadays. > > Apart from being plain wrong, any hint of a similarity between the level > of evil of the Baha'i rulers and that of the terrorists merely inflames > opinions and makes the building of bridges even more difficult. > Furthermore, you do yourself no service whatsoever by aligning yourself > with someone whose attacks on the AO are motivated purely by his own > personal hatred of them. That sort of 'friend', to whom the truth is of > use only so long as it points one particular direction, will hold your > hand as he leads you to hell. > > -- > Ron House house@usq.edu.au > https://www.sci.usq.edu.au/staff/house ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 7:16 AM Subject: bahai - Why I Don't Respond to bahai Fundamentalists bahai - Why I Don't Respond to bahai Fundamentalists Having observed the tactics of bahai fundamentalists for over twenty-five years, I've learnt a few things about the way they operate: 1. Always smear and attack the individual. 2. Lure into supposed discussion then cut the jugular. 3. Work together to create the perception for non-bahais that the individual in question is unbalanced, aberrant, "spamming," etc.... 4. Change or ignore the subject by shifting to the past and arguing over who said what, when, where, how, etc.... As long as the uhj uses "review" to suppress all free thought and discussion and encourages such unseemly tactics, attempting to discuss anything with them is simply a waste of time and energy. Many people other than myself have noted "The Bahai Technique": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm Nobody has to read my reposts who has done so already. My Message Rules are full of bahai fundamentalists. Others may use the same technology to filter out my reposts. My reposts are intended for the uninformed and naive, exactly what enrages the extremists among my fellow bahais. Anyone interested in my views may read them in my archives or glean them from my reposts, which, in my view, preserve the historical record of how low bahai fanatics have been and are willing to go.... I can only hope by serving humbly, as the self-appointed archivist/historian for talk.religion.bahai and for all the many victims of the "universal" house of "justice," that someday someone will come along who will dig deep enough into the record so that the truth will begin to surface. Impartial nonbahai observers might wish to compare and decide for themselves whether the picture fundamentalists labor so hard to paint of me is accurate or not: https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm And then ask yourself why would they go to such extremes? What is it they don't want you to know? I submit the answers may be found on my bahai website. It is my hope that the distortions of the uhj will begin to be purged, it will gradually reform itself, acknowledging the broad and liberal Teachings of Baha'u'llah that it has suppressed now for so many years.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 10:47 AM Subject: Re: bahai - TERRORISM - Testimonies re US bahai community Dermod, Bravo! All rare words of insight.... What a pleasure to read that someone else understands how matters truly stand.... My personal gratitude for your articulating this: >I detect more the > anger and despair born of utter frustration at the perceived destruction of > something that is most precious to him. Far from hatred of the Bahai Faith or my being a "monster," I long ago realized it is and has been my love of Baha'u'llah and His Teachings that enables me to struggle on against the fundamentalist uhj distortions of the "administrative order." -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9pk4vd$iqr2g$2@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... "Ron House" wrote in message news:3BBD1586.470602DA@usq.edu.au... > Dermod Ryder wrote: some things. > > Sorry Dermod, much as I usually applaud your principled comments, I > cannot possibly agree with any comparisons whatsoever between the Baha'i > administration and the terrorists. There is a universe of difference > between those who try to frighten someone with a threat of being > shunned, and those who murder 6,000 innocents. Conflation of terms, > levelling of differences, loss of meaning of words, is a primary part of > the doublespeak that is increasingly making it impossible to get honest > information across to people nowadays. The motivation is the same, the methodology is the same, the aims and objectives are as one - an endeavour to frighten, intimidate or terrorise a person into complying with an objective. I do not and never have equated the scale or magnitude. As they say - murder is murder is murder and Charles Manson or Jack the Ripper are murderers same as Hitler or Stalin. Certainly the former never murdered as many as the latter but does that merit removal of the title of "murderer?" I somehow don't think so! And Manson was a terrorist, even though that went largely unrecognised at the time - he "ordered" the murders to incite the war between Whites and Blacks which he had seen prophesied in the Bible and the songs of the Beatles. After the Blacks had destroyed the Whites, being inferior types, they would mill around leaderless until Charlie emerged from his sanctuary in the desert, to rise up and lead them. Classic scenario, Ron, use or threat of violence to terrorise/intimidate towards achieving an objective. As one innured to the results of terrorism after a lifetime's exposure, I do confess, nonetheless, to having been shocked at what happened at the WTC and Pentagon but I was shocked and horrified by the scale, magnitude and the loss of innocent life rather than anything else. The generation of mass fear and terror in a community is the stock in trade of the terrorist. It is his objective - all other considerations are secondary. And the task of the terrorist task master is to motivate followers to perpetrate acts of violence which the follower would, probably, not ordinarily do. It is the job of the task-master to cause the follower to suspend any critical faculty and follow blindly and implicitly any direction or order given. Absolute and unquestionning obedience to those in authority within the terrorist organisation is required. Once that is established then the "volunteer" in the name of the cause, will undertake any action that he is ordered to accept WILL advance that cause. The terrorist is as committed to his cause as any true believer in righteous ways. Ron, I know and have known terrorists - I have spent time discussing what they do and have done. There are factors that have come from those discussions that help throw light on those who flew those planes on 11 September and those who motivated/ordered them to do that. *John* was a fairly typical youth, not terribly well educated or especially intelligent. He left school and was on the "dole" soon falling into acquaintanceship with a paramilitary organisation. His religion and his way of life were being threatened by evil forces and it was necessary to oppose them, to defend his homeland and hearth. So he was willingly recruited into membership, to do his duty by the cause and swore the oath of allegiance. When they told him that a neighbour was a "traitor" to the cause he went, as instructed, and broke his neighbour's legs with a baseball bat. And when the "cause" needed money he organised the "voluntary" collection of it from the community on a weekly basis and he stole it from those unwilling to contribute voluntarily. He did all of this without question for the "cause" - he went to jail for it. And there he underwent a "conversion". He met the "enemy" - people from the other side who had done the same things he had but for a different cause. And it slowly dawned that he had been used and abused, that he had never endeavoured to think things out for himself but had blindly accepted the gospel of hatred and done deeds for it that he has regretted ever since. Now these same factors, although not to the same scale or magnitude, are apparent in events orchestrated by the AO over years past - factors I have previously alluded to in both private and slightly more public posts to the Internet. In June, for example I remarked in the midst of the Greatest Row surrounding Dr Mork's espionage on Zuhur that Nima was engaged in "counter-terrorism." Now whilst there was an element of roguery in that, nonetheless, the word was carefully chosen in that I have long recognised the terrorist-type tactics employed by the AO. Why of all the rebels in the world were Alison and Michael selected for the treatment they got? Could it be that they were seen as soft targets who would yield to the threats and recant their sins to the greater glory of the AO and a crushing blow to the liberals with the subversion of two stalwarts? Is this not intimidation in pursuit of an objective and is it not thereby terrorism? Perhaps we didn't use the word "Terrorism" much before - but then before 11 September Americans had not ever experienced terrorism up close and personal in the way that we had - an experience, BTW, that I would wish on nobody, not even my greatest enemy. But let's not smack Fred down because he says the unpalatable truth. The AO utilises terrorist tactics in the purest sense of the word and, as I have noted many times before, would not hesitate to employ harsher methods, could it get away with it. Perhaps you should recollect that in June word was on the street that certain dissident elements were to be designated CBs. I had dealings off-list with those who felt that they might be targeted and I can tell you that there was a degree of fear and apprehension - at first. It was made very clear by a series of posts on this group that if even one CB was declared, it would be seen as the declaration of all as CBs and that severe retribution would follow. I have no doubt that this rumour was put on the street to gauge the likely reaction where the CBs to be declared. That this was an intelligent tactic in light of the utter hames made with Alison and Michael's expulsions, is IMO, indisputable. That it indicates the dawning of a degree of rationality at Haifa is also indisputable. But it also indicates a hankering for and a notion that opposition can be quelled by the use of violent tactics, despite the failure thereof to date. Strange behaviour for a religion that preaches "consultation" that it chooses not to "consult" but to "confront." Needless to say, Ron, that's a classic mark of terrorism unless/until somebody manages to pound into their heads the reality that their tactics do not and will not advance their cause one iota. IRA terror in Ireland has retarded the cause of unification of the island and the acceptance of that by the Protestant people, a fuller generation if not longer - it has achieved the exact opposite of what it was aimed at. Terror is ultimately counter productive! > Apart from being plain wrong, any hint of a similarity between the level > of evil of the Baha'i rulers and that of the terrorists merely inflames > opinions and makes the building of bridges even more difficult. As for the building of bridges - are you not being a trifle optimistic? For any process of reconciliation to be embarked upon, BOTH sides have to be willing to engage. Underneath all of the bombast there is a willingness on the part of the liberals to engage such a process, to sit down without pre-conditions and consult upon grievances and their solution. I detect no such willingness on the part of the AO - it has not yet passed the stage of "enemies" and "internal opposition", albeit that most of the opposition is now external, totally radicalised and absolutely outside its control. The status of "Unenrolled Bahai" has emerged, acquired a following and the respectability that accompanies that, has constructed a de facto, if not de jure, community and is a tribute to the power of AO intransigence. In demonising, expelling and casting forth of the internal enemy it created an external "enemy" subject to no power of influence, control or restraint I fear therefore that the "cycle of violence" continues uninterrupted and unabated. The AO can end it at any time - by indicating a willingness to consult, something that would be in accord with its highest ideals. Were it to make the appropriate gesture I have little doubt it would be reciprocated in full measure. But until that happens ... I suspect that the time for that is short. What has been confined (very largely) to the Internet to date can spread and escalate. Conflict has to be nipped in the bud - if not, it gets worse as both sides manoeuvre for the advantage of the high ground for the inevitable peace congress when, eventually, one wins or both become too exhausted to continue. I would not equate the degree of the level of evil of the AO and the WTC terrorists. There is no doubt that the WTC terrorists were and are malign individuals motivated by hatred. The AO, OTOH, is activated more by stupidity than malice. One cannot but be impressed by the dearth of warriors of quality and intellectual prowess within and amongst its most sycophantic supporters. A scrutiny of the Beliefnet archives will reveal glaring and, indeed, farcical examples of that. The action taken against Alison in particular strikes me as precipitate, ill-thought out and embarked upon without an exit strategy being envisaged or even thought necessary, were it to go horribly wrong and backfire, as it undoubtedly has. The greatest obstacle to any resolution of this conflict is that the AO has backed itself into a corner whence it cannot emerge without seeing itself as being humiliated. For it to agree to any form of consultation is a climb down and it cannot do that without fatal damage to its own position. It is in a cleft stick of its own making - it initiated the conflict through precipitate action that has consistently failed to achieve the objective of silencing the opposition, it did so without thought to a fall back position and now, has no other option than to persist in the conflict it created. Furthermore the armoury is empty - it has run out of ideas and weapons. It fired the final shot in June last when it threatened imminent CB hood but the enemy's eyes did not even flicker! It now desperately needs an exit strategy to which purpose we might slant our thoughts and discussion. I think we will have to design a parachute for the AO before any peace process can begin - something that will cushion its fall from on high. > Furthermore, you do yourself no service whatsoever by aligning yourself > with someone whose attacks on the AO are motivated purely by his own > personal hatred of them. That sort of 'friend', to whom the truth is of > use only so long as it points one particular direction, will hold your > hand as he leads you to hell. Actually Fred has aligned himself with my thinking. Furthermore the imputation of motives of hatred to him is questionable. I detect more the anger and despair born of utter frustration at the perceived destruction of something that is most precious to him. Fred certainly is intemperate at times and most annoying at others. Yet there is a blatant sincerity behind what he does, no matter how exasperating or self defeating it might appear to be. I can empathise with Fred - in times past when terrorist outrages have killed friends of mine, I have been tempted to reach for the gun and lash out at any and all people who just might be even sympathetic to those who have committed the foul deed. And as we know only too well here - terrorism in one community spawns its counterpart in the other. Fred is a product of the AO - if he is a monster, it created the monster! That is the tragedy but that is the inevitable product of a system that polarises opinion by stigmatising and demonising those who do not adhere to a strict fundamentalist interpretation. And when you talk of building bridges you have to think of building bridges to Fred as well. His is an injured soul as well! Now it may be that I am well on the road to hell! So long as it is a place free from religious fanatics it shall be heaven for me! And nobody is holding my hand, nobody is leading me and I care not if anybody is following! As ever, Dermod. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 1:11 PM Subject: UN combats harmful forms of religious extremism Sounds me like the bahai faith ought to be on the list too! UN expert urges measures to combat harmful forms of religious extremism https://www.un.org/News/dh/latest/page2.html#12 4 October - A United Nations expert has urged the development of agreed principles to respond to the growing trend in religious extremism, according to a report released today at UN Headquarters in New York. The report of the Special Rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief, Abdelfattah Amor, documents an "increase in extremism affecting all religions, whether Islam, Christianity, Judaism or Hinduism." According to the report, extremism can take the form of "fanatical and obscurantist groups," but there are also "professional extremists" who use religion for political ends. Extremists can also foster discrimination and intolerance relating to women. Responding to this trend, the Special Rapporteur recommends that "in the face of this ever-growing and all-pervasive menace to peace that breaks up society and poses a particular threat to vulnerable groups (women and minorities), the international community should react firmly, combating it in particular through the elaboration and adoption of a baseline of commonly accepted rules and principles of conduct and behaviour towards religious extremism." At the same time, the Special Rapporteur reports some progress in securing freedom of religion, including the gradual decline, since the end of the Cold War, in anti-religious policies or policies of total control of religious life in the name of a political ideology. There has also been marked progress in the holding of inter-religious dialogue aimed at conflict prevention and management as well as reconciliation, according to the report. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 8:21 AM Subject: Re: bahai - TERRORISM 7 - Testimonies re US bahai community "Abdu'l-Baha clearly advocated not only freedom of conscience but also freedom of *speech* and a democratic society." Juan Cole, December 03, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Freedom2.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 9:29 AM Subject: Re: bahai - TERRORISM 8 - Testimonies re US bahai community "That includes blowing the whistle on coercion, manipulation and abuse by Baha'i administrators of innocent adherents. I plead for all right thinking and compassionate persons to join me in trying to reform the Baha'i administration by critiquing it. It is out of kilter. Its members know it is out of kilter. It needs to be righted. Kowtowing only keeps it out of kilter." Professor Juan Cole, October 12, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole19.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 10:00 AM Subject: Bad Math..... 6 +/x 96% 168 +/x 96% 4979 +/x 96% = .... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 7:03 AM Subject: Re: bahai - TERRORISM 9 - Testimonies re US bahai community "Suppression (that is what it was) of Dialogue magazine by Kazemzadeh and Henderson." Professor Juan Cole, May 13, 1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole30.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 2:23 PM To: nthyorgos@hotmail.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Motion to Dismiss - Judge's ruling Yorgos, I haven't received the copy yet of the judge's ruling. I would still appreciate it if you have it. Thanks. -- Frederick Glaysher 668 Bolinger Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 FG@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at https://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 12:33 PM To: nthyorgos@hotmail.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Re: Motion to Dismiss - Judge's ruling Do you think the LSA's are funneling money to >terrorists? Never occurred to me but I wouldn't want to rule anything out. Have any proof or anything to suggest it? If so, I urge you to contact the FBI. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA >From: "Yorgos" >To: "Frederick Glaysher" >Subject: Re: Motion to Dismiss - Judge's ruling >Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:49:50 -0600 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Originating-IP: [64.106.61.145] >Message-ID: <20011010225044.3bc4d0c40c491@hotmail.com> >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 > >Fred, as I said earlier, for a copy contact Deborah Buchhorn directly at >debbuch@flash.net. Do you think the LSA's are funneling money to >terrorists? > >----- Original Message ----- >From: FG >To: >Cc: >Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 2:23 PM >Subject: Motion to Dismiss - Judge's ruling > > > > > > Yorgos, > > > > I haven't received the copy yet of the judge's ruling. I would still >appreciate it if you have it. > > > > Thanks. > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > 668 Bolinger > > Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 > > FG@hotmail.com > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at https://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 7:32 AM Subject: Re: Your bahai Newsgroup Experience - How to IMPROVE IT For insight into the dynamics of bahai fundamentalism, non-bahai observers might also want to compare the following message by this same individual to the one at the end here that Mr. Hazini commented on. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0109141134.7e9efb0a@posting.google.com... > I have come to realize that Fred is an abuser. He is mentally abusive > to the Baha'is. > > He claims to be the victim but lets look at his methods. > > He posts outrageous claims like Dan Jordan being murdered by the UHJ, > that the Baha'is are only a little better than the terrorists who > attacked the WTC and the Pentagon. > > He makes claims about imaginary "Baha'i Techniques" and claims that > there are thousands of victims of the Baha'i Faith. > > He claims that Baha'is do not want to talk about the substance of his > accusations, but when we do he never replies. > > He taunts Baha'is by spamming news groups with his rhetoric then he > runs behind his stock answers when anyone attempts to engage him in > dialogue. > > That is abusive behavior. Its like a child who calls someone names > and then runs. He does not want dialogue - he want to cause pain. > > In the wake of Tuesday's events he comes here and uses this time of > pain to inflict more pain by comparing Baha'is to scum bag terrorists. > > That is abuse. > > Fred's roll call of victims is long - far to long to post. If he has > his way the list will only grow becuase he does not care about healing > just his own shallow form of terror. He hits and runs leaving people > angered and agrieved. > > Fred has plenty of victims - but what he does not realize that he is > is own victim. > > I for one am sick of it. "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:9q5gft$avd$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > Dave, > > You should read what you write sometimes. If you really believe in this > nonesense you just wrote below, I believe you need immediate intervention by > professional counter-cult deprogrammers. Are you for freakin real?! > > cheers, > Nima > > > "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message > news:f0853486.0110111115.2369140a@posting.google.com... > Dermod, > > Sunning is the legitimate treatment of those who have broken the > Covenant. It is something that every Baha'i knows. If someone feels > "terror" when they find out that they are moving towards breaking the > Covenant that is a good thing. With out fear of conequences how would > laws ever be enforced. > > The fear of breaking the covenant is more like the fear felt when a > criminal is caught and convicted, and realizes the punishment that > awaits. > > The law is there for a reason. Baha'u'llah expected it to be > enforced. If a Baha'i is approaching the point where they are going > to be considered a CB then they need to know. > > The woman in your example was on the end of a criminal threat. A > Baha'i who is close to being considered a CB would be hearing a > serious, legitimate warning of the possibilty of a legitimate law > being enforced. > > Do you see the difference? On is criminal and the other lawful. > > Cheers, > > Dave > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 7:33 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Terrorism & OFF- ONline Stalking Alma wrote: How in the world can we expect > the peoples of the world to live in peace and harmony with each other when > we Baha'is reject fellow Baha'is who disagree with us. Rare words.... Would that the uhj lived up to them.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Thirinel" wrote in message news:etivoSpUBHA.2140@cpimsnntpa02... > > Dave Fiorito wrote in message ... > >Well considering you have not been a Baha'i since February of 1999 its > >pretty difficult for me to believe you have any idea what is going on > >in the Baha'i community. > > > >Nice try though. > > > >Cheers, > > > >Dave > > But Dave he is as much a Baha'i as you are even if the AO community rejects > him. It is your blindered understanding of who is a Baha'i that refuses to > recognize him. Baha'i is chartered to be unity in diversity and I agree > that Fred can be very diverse, very different. As a matter of fact I more > often disagree with his positions than I agree but Baha'u'llah states that > all who follow him are on the Crimson Ark. How in the world can we expect > the peoples of the world to live in peace and harmony with each other when > we Baha'is reject fellow Baha'is who disagree with us. > > In peace, > Alma > > P.S. My feed of this newsgroup is crippled so if you reply and I don't > answer it may be that I never got the message. > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 7:42 AM Subject: Re: Your bahai Newsgroup Experience - How to IMPROVE IT For FURTHER insight into the dynamics of bahai fundamentalism, non-bahai observers might also want to compare another message by this same individual to the one at the end here that Mr. Hazini commented on. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship From: "Dave Fiorito" Subject: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Date: Friday, September 14, 2001 1:01 PM (posted on talk.religion.bahai) ------------------------------ Little Better Than the Terrorists (posted on beliefnet.com) fglaysher 9/14/01 7:51 AM 1 out of 2 Sad fact, sad fact.... Having betrayed the moderation articulated in the Writings.... fglaysher ----------------------------------- To: Fred From: the white hot ball of anger in my gut. In the past you were just a pain. I welcomed your voice as proof that the First Amendment works. I never did agree with you but that is the way of this world. I never wanted you to go away. You are the negative to the Baha'i positive. Not now. Not after that comment above. You are a fucking asshole. You are a egomaniacal sociopathic shit head of the highest order. This is not character assasination because you have no character to assassinate. You are worthless. How dare you compare people who are at this moment gathering their resources to help rescue their fellow world citizens from the twited wreckage left in the wake of that horrifically evil deed. Baha'is in NYC and in New Jersey have gone to Manhatten to volunteer. Others are gathering goods and money for the tough task of recovery. Baha'is are working to heal the wounds. All you want to do is inflict more pain. You are evil. You are a fucking coward. You make me sick. Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:9q5gft$avd$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > Dave, > > You should read what you write sometimes. If you really believe in this > nonesense you just wrote below, I believe you need immediate intervention by > professional counter-cult deprogrammers. Are you for freakin real?! > > cheers, > Nima > > > "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message > news:f0853486.0110111115.2369140a@posting.google.com... > Dermod, > > Sunning is the legitimate treatment of those who have broken the > Covenant. It is something that every Baha'i knows. If someone feels > "terror" when they find out that they are moving towards breaking the > Covenant that is a good thing. With out fear of conequences how would > laws ever be enforced. > > The fear of breaking the covenant is more like the fear felt when a > criminal is caught and convicted, and realizes the punishment that > awaits. > > The law is there for a reason. Baha'u'llah expected it to be > enforced. If a Baha'i is approaching the point where they are going > to be considered a CB then they need to know. > > The woman in your example was on the end of a criminal threat. A > Baha'i who is close to being considered a CB would be hearing a > serious, legitimate warning of the possibilty of a legitimate law > being enforced. > > Do you see the difference? On is criminal and the other lawful. > > Cheers, > > Dave > > ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 7:45 AM Subject: Dave Fioritori For FURTHER insight into the dynamics of bahai fundamentalism, non-bahai observers might also want to compare another message by this same individual to the one at the end here that Mr. Hazini commented on. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship From: "Dave Fiorito" Subject: something Fred posted on Beliefnet Date: Friday, September 14, 2001 1:01 PM (posted on talk.religion.bahai) ------------------------------ Little Better Than the Terrorists (posted on beliefnet.com) fglaysher 9/14/01 7:51 AM 1 out of 2 Sad fact, sad fact.... Having betrayed the moderation articulated in the Writings.... fglaysher ----------------------------------- To: Fred From: the white hot ball of anger in my gut. In the past you were just a pain. I welcomed your voice as proof that the First Amendment works. I never did agree with you but that is the way of this world. I never wanted you to go away. You are the negative to the Baha'i positive. Not now. Not after that comment above. You are a fucking asshole. You are a egomaniacal sociopathic shit head of the highest order. This is not character assasination because you have no character to assassinate. You are worthless. How dare you compare people who are at this moment gathering their resources to help rescue their fellow world citizens from the twited wreckage left in the wake of that horrifically evil deed. Baha'is in NYC and in New Jersey have gone to Manhatten to volunteer. Others are gathering goods and money for the tough task of recovery. Baha'is are working to heal the wounds. All you want to do is inflict more pain. You are evil. You are a fucking coward. You make me sick. ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 8:04 AM To: Grim_Reaper_Mk2@btinternet.com Subject: Brave New World Dermod, I've noticed the website has been down for a long time. I have an old link on my webpage and would like to reconnect it if you've moved your files elsewhere. Alternatively, my offer to host Brave New World on my website still stands. There's a lot of good material there that others would enjoy. Hate to see it lost forever. Fred ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 7:00 AM Subject: Re: That's right: Opinions are not banned! Thank you for stating all of this so forthrightly. Indeed, much of this is all I've had to say for a very long time.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Ron House" wrote in message news:3BD8E66A.6CECA1EC@usq.edu.au... > Dave Fiorito wrote: > > > > Karen, > > > > > > That is not what I am saying. I am saying that there is a line > > > > between voicing an opinion and calling for others to accept that > > > > opinion as the truth. It is a line that should not be crossed.>> > > > > > > And exactly how is a person supposed to know where that line is? That's why > > > I find the situation so unjust. I don't approve of them pouncing on people > > > because of their opinions, but if they are going to do that, they at least > > > ought to be clear about what opinions are banned. > > > > Opinions are not banned. Methods of expressing an opinion that cause > > disunity or the undrmining of the AO is the problem. > > I am sorry Dave, but it is not necessary, as others seem to be doing, to > defend whether they are on one side or the other of some imaginary line. > It is _you_ and the unreflective persons in the administrative order, > who "just don't get it": If you don't like what someone says, _that is > just too bad_! Go and say some prayers until you learn the skills > necessary to deal with living in the human race. "From the clash of > differing opinions" comes the spark of truth. From the stimulation of > hearing others of differing views trying to convince us - Yes! Trying to > convince us they are right! - it is from that challenge that we > ourselves hone our own thinking, discover our own oversights, and come > to a better understanding of reality. > > Now, your big, big problem in the various questions discussed commonly > here is, to put it bluntly, that the UHJ is wrong and its critics > (excepting one particular person) are mostly right - to the nearest > one-sentence approximation. Therefore any reasonable attempt to provide > evidence in support of any of the usual criticisms will naturally sound > like an overwhelming argument and, if one has a religious mind-block > that prevents one accepting the clear consequences of the evidence, then > it will of course sound like 'disunity' and 'undermining'. The truth is > the truth, though, so the more you push this barrow the sooner the > wheels will fall off. > > In case you are wondering what I mean by 'the critics are right', here > is a short list of some points that come to mind as I write this over a > quick tea break. I regard the following as proven beyond reasonable > doubt: > > 1. The NZ NSA lied about Alison Marshall being 'counselled', and the UHJ > has, culpably and dishonestly, never corrected the lie. > > 2. There are widespread problems in the Baha'i administration in the > USA, and a great many heavy-handed outrages contrary to the fundamental > principles of unity have occurred, such as the denunciation of the > Dialogue magazine and the inquisition of Juan Cole. The UHJ is curiously > inactive in ever bringing any of this activity to heel. > > 3. By heavy-handed authoritarian tactics, the UHJ has brought continuing > criticism upon itself that is surely much worse than the original > problems; I am thinking of the various carpetings and, worse, the > expulsions from the Faith for such trivial reasons as Michael thinking > (like most Baha'is, incidentally, but saying so just a bit more > vociferously) that women should serve on the UHJ. > > 4. The scope of freedom of thought, belief, and expression within the > Baha'i Faith has been narrowed tragically from the wide, generous > horizons envisioned by Baha'u'llah, until the modern typical believer is > scared of his own shadow, always careful to 'vet' every comment in case > it offends some dictum from on high. The very notion that others' > comments have to conform to some standard that the AO is authorised to > lay down as to 'tone' and 'methods of expression' is contrary to > Baha'u'llah's clear teachings regarding freedom of speech. Yes, > Baha'u'llah gives us a lot of guidance as to how to speak wisely, but > that guidance does not constitute a right for _someone else_ to vet the > contents or style of any person's speech. > > So, Dave, a good person like you will sooner or later run into this > conundrum. On the one hand you see and are inspired by the wonderful > truths in Baha'u'llah's revelation, but on the other, you have no good > arguments to offer to defend the current-day administrators who run the > religion. Therefore you fall back on inspecting people's 'tone of > voice', or their 'method of expression', or some such irrelevancy. That > sidetrack will only take you so far, and one day you will have to face > the actual problem. When you do, you will have a choice of being true to > reality, or taking the path of least resistance by rationalising the > wrongs that have been publicised here. If you take the latter path, you > will destroy your own integrity. You might not know you have done so, > but everything you think or do from them on will be compromised by the > built-in paradox in your own soul. If, however, you take the former > path, then expect life to be hard: for a start, the current problems > will be a severe challenge to your faith in Baha'u'llah and, perhaps, > even in God. But you will be a whole person, your mind will be sound, > and you will have grace in God, which, eventually, will result in the > real answer to every question, the true answer that wipes away every > tear, being given unto you. > > -- > Ron House house@usq.edu.au > https://www.sci.usq.edu.au/staff/house ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 7:13 AM Subject: Attn Dermod - Re Haifa's "monitors" Dermod Ryder wrote: They read the newsgroups - there are three people at Haifa tasked with monitoring TRB/ARB (What aboutcha, people? I constantly think of you checking on each other!) -- Who are they? Have any names? -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 7:31 AM Subject: bahai - Converting BOTH Muslims & Jews to Islam's New Testament, i.e., the Bahai Faith It may be time for the masses of Islam and Israel to realize that only by accepting God's Revelation for this day and age can they preserve the integrity of their Old Testament and live a balanced spiritual life in the modern world.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 7:49 AM Subject: bahai - Converting Western Masses to Islam's New Testament, i.e., the Bahai Faith I should add that it may also be time for the Western masses to accept the spiritual return of Christ, the Messiah, Baha'u'llah, as God's Prophet for this day, as His Teacher for world peace and unity. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:9rbhfj$sec06$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > It may be time for the masses of Islam and Israel to realize that only by > accepting God's Revelation for this day and age can they preserve the > integrity of their Old Testament and live a balanced spiritual life in the > modern world.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 7:58 AM Subject: Conference Call - Liberals & Fundamentalists Now may be the time for a conference of Baha'is of all persuasions to come together and debate the great issues of freedom of speech and conscience in the Baha'i Faith for the advancement of the Cause of the Blessed Beauty. I invite Juan Cole to consider hosting such a conference at the University of Michigan for the participation of people of all points of view, including representatives of the administrative order. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 8:01 AM To: jcole@umich.edu Subject: Conference Call - Liberals & Fundamentalists Now may be the time for a conference of Baha'is of all persuasions to come together and debate the great issues of freedom of speech and conscience in the Baha'i Faith for the advancement of the Cause of the Blessed Beauty. I invite Juan Cole to consider hosting such a conference at the University of Michigan for the participation of people of all points of view, including representatives of the administrative order. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 5:18 PM Subject: Re: Conference Call - Liberals & Fundamentalists The Universal House of Justice is Baha'u'llah's legitimate institution of authority. I would think those who reject that fact wouldn't want to attend, whether extremist Muslim or whatever. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship wrote in message news:3bd9c162.770952581@news.aros.net... > Would those of the Orthodox Baha'i Faith be able to attend, or would > it preclude any others from the BIGS from coming? > > > > On Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:07:04 GMT, "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good > Standing" wrote: > > >Mr. Mahdi, > > > >I don't believe it would be appropriate for Muslims > >who have attacked and denied Baha'u'llah, as you > >yourself have, to be there. The conference, as I > >conceive it, would be largely for Baha'is, those who > >have accepted God's Manifestation for today, though > >anyone might attend as an observer, I suppose, as is > >done at many secular and religious conventions. > > > >Obviously, one needn't be a Baha'i to attend, and those > >who belong to Islam and are of goodwill should be welcomed. > > > >Frederick Glaysher > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > >https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > > > > > > > > > >"Mr Mahdi" wrote in message > >news:20011026130001.16211.00000036@mb-mf.aol.com... > >> Greetings Fred, > >> > >> If this debate on the bahai faith between the two sides ever take place, > >would > >> non-Muslims be allowed to join the discussion as well? > >> > >> Peace. > >> > >> Mahdi Muhammad > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 5:22 PM Subject: Re: Attn Dermod - Re Haifa's "monitors" Dermod, Love it. Just goes to show why some of the best literature is satire.... Think the humorless Monitors will appreciate your numbers? -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9rbr91$sa5qr$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" > wrote in message > news:9rbgej$sspua$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > > Dermod Ryder wrote: > > They read the newsgroups - there are three people at Haifa tasked > with > > monitoring TRB/ARB (What aboutcha, people? I constantly think of > you > > checking on each other!) > > -- > > > > Who are they? Have any names? > > Sorry Fred - no names! They are the unsung heroes, the > Rangers/SAS/Delta Force/SEALS of the Adminocentric Faith for they > disappear into the bunker to do their duty and are never heard of > more. For them is sung this anthem: - > > Go ye heroes, go to glory, > Though you die in combat gory, > Ye shall live in song and story, > Go to immortality! > Go to death and go to slaughter: > Die, and every Bahai daughter > With her tears your grave shall water. > Go to monitor TRB! > > (With apologies to W.S. Gilbert) > > > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 5:32 PM Subject: Re: Attn Dermod - Re Haifa's "monitors" "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9rbr91$sa5qr$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > > Sorry Fred - no names! Well, any guesses? Anybody we know around here? -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 5:38 PM Subject: Re: bahai - Converting BOTH Muslims & Jews to Islam's New Testament, i.e., the Bahai Faith I would expect as much from someone who wrote the following: https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Despite the slander of many fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, I have been a member of the bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my main bahai page. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. The reason the uhj allows and encourages fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to backbite and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet, and elsewhere may be discovered in the four messages below: To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ72498.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/uhj12-10-99.htm Open Petition for Baha'i Reformation February 8, 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Reformation.htm My Request Not to Receive the American Bahai 1996 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 10:24 AM Subject: Re: Conference Call - Liberals & Fundamentalists Mr. Mahdi, You sound very much like what I'd imagine the Taliban would if they had, and were capable of using, a computer.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mr Mahdi" wrote in message news:20011026221552.03694.00000052@mb-mw.aol.com... > >I don't believe it would be appropriate for Muslims > >who have attacked and denied Baha'u'llah, as you > >yourself have, to be there. > > I understand. Of course, as you know I deny the false prophet bahaullah (may > God curse him) because evidence refutes that he was ever a prophet. I would of > enjoyed attending such an invent to see a bunch of middle to upper class, > whining white Western liberal sissies cry over why the bahai is or isn't a > secular neo-humanist movement that allows man and not God to be sovereign and > the legislator. I would of be laughing so much at the spiritually naive and > cult-prone "join any religion that seems like an alternative to the > Judeo-Christian religious scheme" yuppies that I would be disrupting the whole > gathering. > > But I hope such an event produces good results and help prove how the bahai > faith is based on appeasing the western intellectuals instead of God. > > May God curse bahaullah and those who propagate his false and refutable > religion. > > Peace. > > Mahdi Muhammad ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 10:32 AM Subject: Re: Attn Dermod - Re Haifa's "monitors" Dermod, A genuine Thanks for bringing so much humor to this newsgroup! Since 1996/97 I can't think of anyone who has had half the wit to just LAUGH at the buffoons hunkering down on Mt Carmel and their outposts around the globe.... It's a gift I admire, having largely a grim, tragic, sober temperament, perhaps to a fault.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9rcqki$t07d2$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" > wrote in message > news:9rckn0$sjbmq$2@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > > "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message > > news:9rbr91$sa5qr$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > > > > > > Sorry Fred - no names! > > > > Well, any guesses? Anybody we know around here? > > My understanding is that they are in a bunker buried deep under Mount > Carmel near Haifa and they live in constant fear of attack. The > bunkers are designed to resist a dead hit by a rocket propelled Fred > Glaysher - a variant that is considered more deadly than the Fred > Glaysher Mk 1 Master of Spam. > > To protect these valued assets who serve a daily report on the > activities on TRB to the House members over breakfast - an event that > makes breakfast the worst meal of the day - counter-Glaysher weapons > have been deployed across the Internet. These include the Fiorito > Close In Weapons System, the Medium Range Kohli and the Rolling > Articulated Matt Menge. > > We can't provide the names of the monitors for security reasons - that > and the fact that they are regularly rotated for the strain of having > to listen to the absolute filth and drivel on TRB is considered too > hazardous - and that's just the guy who monitors the fundies. Word > has it that several have died from boredom, as well - something we can > all empathise with. > > The ones in charge of the others, those faced with daily exposure to > the "covenantly challenging" infection, for which there is no known > cure, are a particularly sad case. A number have gone over the hill, > having succumbed to the infection; others are reported to have ended > their days in strait jackets. I tell you, Fred, you gotta take your > hat off to these guys. > > Due to their courage and devotion to duty, the Bahai World is a safer > place for your kids to be brought up as fundamentalists!! > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 12:13 PM Subject: Re: MAJOR UPDATE - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience I've zipped the ArchivesCombined file into about a 6 megabyte file for easier downloading too, for those interesteted. Help preserve this archive for future generations of bahai scholars, those who will hopefully merit the name.... Link from my homepage or below directly: https://balder.prohosting.com/~bahai/archives/ArchivesCombined73100.zip https://balder.prohosting.com/~bahai/archives/BahaiCensorship10-27-01.zip -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:0BGC7.203276$K6.99954239@news2... > Many selected messages for 2001. > > BahaiCensorship10-27-01.zip - 18megs - Download this site! > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 5:48 PM Subject: Re: Conference Call - Liberals & Fundamentalists Turncoat? Sorry, Mahdi, but I don't belong to your view of life.... Muslims, like yourself, are clinging to a past that never existed and, in my opinion, denying God's Revelation, the fulfillment of Islam, through Baha'u'llah. You're free to say what you want. You may think you're different from the Taliban and bahai fundamentalists, but I don't really see much difference. And, for clairification, I've never agreed with any of your opinions, only your right to state them. Thanks for disclosing the shape of your mind so exhaustively.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mr Mahdi" wrote in message news:20011028122943.16237.00000341@mb-mf.aol.com... > >Mr. Mahdi, > > > >You sound very much like what I'd imagine the Taliban > >would if they had, and were capable of using, a computer.... > > What the...? So you felt that using "fundamentalist Muslims" no longer suited > your secular fundamentalist agenda so you know went turncoat? You try to > portray your religion as a "victim" of "fundamentalism" while you want to > overhaul the very teachings of your religion by making man (and not what you > claim is from God) the ultimate authority in deciding the tenets of the bahai > cult? > > You know that I do not accept your false prophet and yet because of your > intolerance of free speech, you decided to backstab your supporters. You are > indeed a fraud and a hypocrite; you claim to be for free speech but when you > felt that you could no longer use people like me to further your secular > fundamentalistic agenda, you claim to be all for bahai faith and attack those > who are against it. You are no different that the "fundamentalist" bahais whom > you dedicate your life into attacking and defaming with you bed-wetting, > whiners' club excuse for a website. > > The Taliban are not intellectuals nor do they understand Islam. But what I can > say is the the bed-wetting, spoiled spiritually naive sissies like yourself who > want their cake and eat too got angry at the bahai ao because the bahai ao > tried at least to maintain some semblance of a "divinely revealed" religion > while the "liberals" wanted to make it more of a neo-humanist movement > disguised as a religion. > > The liberals are too stupid to even realize that liberalism is a dynamic and > not static belief and value system while revelation (even fake ones like > bahaullah) is static. This is because what was considered liberal back then is > no longer considered liberal now, and the bahai faith claims to be from God > "for this day and age" so it is revelation and not "liberalism" that is the > basis for the creed of the bahai cult. You liberals are too stupid to even > understand that. > > My disbelief in bahaullah (may God curse him) stems from the fact that the > bahai faith can be refuted, not because of fanatacism. You are a bahai because > as the typical middle to upper class white Westerner, you were looking for an > alternative to the Judeo-Christian religious scheme (like many were in the last > 60s and 70s) and thought the neo-humanist message of the bahai cult proved > itself to be from God. > > I won't get into a step-by-step refutation of your cult, but the point is that > your love for bahaullah and the bahai faith is based on emotions and not an > intellectual conviction. It stems from the fact that people who have blind > faith do not care if the bahai faith has mistakes, illogical errors, and so on. > They just care if their emotional needs are satisfied so they further delude > themselves into thinking that the Creator of the Heavens and earth decided give > the world a neo-secularist cult that tries to appease Western intellectuals and > their secular standards. For example, the bahai faith is probably the only > "revealed" religion that believes in the theory of evolution and that Adam and > Eve were metaphors (this of course was designed to win converts from the > secular intellectual world, but of course this backfired on the bahais). > > The bahai faith has no system of life to solve systematic problems. It cannot > solve poverty for example because poverty is more than some moral or ethical > problem, it is a systematic problem. The bahai cult supports imperialistic > nations. It supports Israel, even though Israel is an apartheid state and > commits acts of terrorism all the time. The bahai faith has nothing to offer > the world in terms of a system, it is just another cult that promises utopia if > it were in power. > > I would believe in bahaullah and the bahai faith is they can be proven > intellectually. They cant so I reject them. If you were for free speech, then > you would recognize my right to reject what you believe instead of going > turncoat because you felt that I am no more helpful in your CRUSADE to further > secularize your false and refutable religion. > > Mahdi Muhammad ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 5:53 PM Subject: Re: Worldwide Growth of the Baha'i Faith Want to understand bahai fundamentalism? Read this message: https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3bdc5f95@news.cybersurf.net... https://www.bci.org/edmonton.bahais/worldwide_growth.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 5:54 PM Subject: Re: Worldwide Growth of the Baha'i Faith Want to understand bahai fundamentalism? Read this message: https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3bdc5efe@news.cybersurf.net... https://www.bci.org/edmonton.bahais/images/religions-spread-1999.jpg ___________________________ In this world we judge a cause or movement by its progress and development. Some movements appear, manifest a brief period of activity, then discontinue. Others show forth a greater measure of growth and strength, but before attaining mature development, weaken, disintegrate and are lost in oblivion. Neither of these mentioned are progressive and permanent. There is still another kind of movement or cause which from a very small, inconspicuous beginning goes forward with sure and steady progress, gradually broadening and widening until it has assumed universal dimensions. The Baha'i Movement is of this nature. [-Abdu'l-Bahá] ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 8:52 AM Subject: Re: Thank you Fred for helping people to turn away from Bahai Clearly my critizing your clinging to Islam's old testament has struck a nerve.... Sorry to hurt your feelings, but I don't share your views on the Baha'i Faith or my website. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mr Mahdi" wrote in message news:20011028182457.16269.00000328@mb-mf.aol.com... > Dear Fred, > > I appreciate your efforts in making people turn away and even leave the bahai > faith. As you know, I have been active for several years exposing and refuting > the bahai faith and I have been successful in making people doubt and > eventually leave the bahai faith. > > I admit that your efforts supercede mines. You have amassed a collection of > material from bahais, ex-bahais and non-bahais that basically put shame on your > religion. You have crossposted your message to non-bahai newsgroups where you > made people who never hated or even heard of bahai hate the bahai faith. You > have made people think that the bahai faith is nothing but a cult for whining > white liberals. You have even posted the stories of ex-bahais and why they > left the faith. You link to sites like "Answering bahaullah" that refutes and > exposes the cult. > > I have used your site in my efforts in refuting and exposing the bahai faith. > Many people whom I referred your site to came back thanking me for waking them > up to how much the bahai faith is messed up internally and externally. I will > continue to use you and take advantage of your wonderful efforts. A sucker is > born every minute as the adage goes. > > Your work in causing damage to the bahai cult is priceless. I thank you so > much and I hope continued success in tarnishing the reputation of your false > religion. > > Sincerely, > > Mahdi Muhammad ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 8:53 AM Subject: Re: Conference Call - Liberals & Fundamentalists Clearly my critizing your clinging to Islam's old testament has struck a nerve.... Sorry to hurt your feelings, but I don't share your any of views, on the Baha'i Faith or my website. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mr Mahdi" wrote in message news:20011028181655.16269.00000327@mb-mf.aol.com... > >Turncoat? Sorry, Mahdi, but I don't belong to your view of life.... > >Muslims, like yourself, are clinging to a past that never existed > >and, in my opinion, denying God's Revelation, the fulfillment of > >Islam, through Baha'u'llah. > > You are just another in a long line of spiritually naive Westerners who felt > discontent with "traditional religion" and instead sought an "alternative" and > because of this, some of you idiots turned to "bahaullah" (Mirza Husayn Ali) > and thought that God sent him. The bahai faith can be refuted as you know (but > refuse to admit), it even negates God's attributes which is Sovereignty and the > Sole Legislator. What does the bahai faith have that can solve systematic > problems accept promises of utopian, using a humanist and secular message of > course. > > Bab claimed to be Mahdi; that can be refuted. Bahaullah claimed to be Mahdi as > well, Imam Hussain, the 10th Buddha (Buddha was an agnostic but idiots like > yourself dont see the contradiction), 5th Avatar and so on. Not one of these > titles can be proven, and furthermore, what makes it interesting is that > bahaullah never claimed to be most of those titles; rather it was those after > him in a continual building of the incomplete bahai creed that assigned those > titles to him. > > If you god bahaullah was the messenger "for this day and age," why was he sent > with an incomplete message that required those after him to complete it, and > furthermore, why wasnt he able to implement all the teachings he claimed was > givent to him by God? If bahaullah was the Messiah, why didn't he lead the > world in Universal Peace, why instead was he locked up in prison? > > Your dumbass won't answer these questions because you have been brainwashed by > this utopian, humanist cult. You probably believe in suspending thinking in > order to reconcile facts with your fiction of a religion. You are truly a > typical, spiritually naive Westerner cultist who is suckered into believing > anything that sounds "alternative." > > Getting back to your turncoating, it is clear that you use people to further > your secular fundamentalist agenda of secularizing the bahai faith into a > neo-humanist movement that uses religious as a front for its goal of a "new > world order." The bahai faith in 150 years couldn't even reform one city let > alone the world; the bahai faith has failed to even sustain its members from > leaving it (because many realize that it is false and full of BS). Further, > the Islamic system did rule the earth for 1300 years and without it, you > ancestors, the Europeans, would still be in the Dark Ages believing that 3 > equals 1 and not wiping their butts after going to the bathroom. > > Let's face it, the bahai faith is dying and even your website admits this. The > bahai faith has no system of life to reform mankind and lead him to progress. > You have been duped by another "utopian" cult that promises utopia if it were > in complete power. The bahai faith wants to take over the world -- although it > cant even take over a city. The bahai faith always worked with imperialistic > nations like America, Britain, Russia, and the rest of the cabal in its attempt > to achieve world domination in a subtle and covert way. > > Your spiritual naivete (common with white upper class Westerners) lead you to > believe that the neo-humanist, utopian message was from someone who had to be > from God, not knowing that any person could of come up with that same message > if they had some creativity. You could care less if the bahai cult was > refuted, its illogical teachings that not only contradicted other teachings but > its own teachings. You ignore the fact the bahai faith has a secondary source > of legislation which proves that man and not God is the true legislator in the > bahai faith. You ignore the fact that the bahai faith still remains a small, > obscure cult that has a high dropout rate. > > I have used and exploited your website to prove how dysfunctional and > ridiculous yoru stupid religion is. Thank you for allowing the world to > further be turned away from your cult. > > You have led more people away from the bahai faith than I did and I thank you > for it. I have worked hard in exposing and refuting the bahai faith and I > admit, you have made more apostates than I have. > > Thank you oh stupid jackass. > > Mahdi Muhammad ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 2:52 PM Subject: Re: Thank you Fred for helping people to turn away from Bahai Mr. Mahdi, I feel no need to spend my time refuting each of your points. Instead, I thank you for helping me to teach my fellow bahais how to handle and tolerate opinions other than their own. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Antinomies.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mr Mahdi" wrote in message news:20011029101344.16241.00000392@mb-mf.aol.com... > >Clearly my critizing your clinging to Islam's old testament > >has struck a nerve.... Sorry to hurt your feelings, but I don't > >share your views on the Baha'i Faith or my website. > > You never proved anything in Islam to be "old". All you did was repeat the > party-line rhetoric of spiritually-naive yuppies who were deceived by the > "utopian" message of your cult. Your religion is like any other cult, it wants > world domination (e.g. New World Order), and what good way to do that is claim > to be "the religion for this day and age," claim to be "progressive and > liberal," and then target the nonsense of the bahai faith to spiritually-naive > white Westerners who will fall for anything that is "different" from > Judeo-Chrisitan doctrine and voila, another sucker converting to a false > religion. Look at all the naive Westerners who converted to Eastern religions > in the late 60s and 70s, you think they converted because of truth or because > they needed something to fulfil their emotional needs? > > You are now bed fellows (once again) with Nima whom you said before you didn't > like. Using him helps your agenda and using me does not so you became friends > with him (once again) and now try to come off as this "proud bahai," even > spouting off some bahai missionary BS. > > Of course I never said you needed to share my views on the bahai faith or > anything else. I always knew you were a secular fundamentalist who claim to be > bahai and yet for some reason, did a better job in discrediting the bahai faith > than I have. You post links to websites refuting and attacking the bahai > faith; you post stories of why people left the bahai faith; you post stories of > how the bahai faith is completely messed up and so on. > > I don't believe you can be that dumb to believe that your website is actually > HELPING promote the message of bahai. Name me one person, just one person, who > converted to the bahai faith after reading your amazing web page. You can't > because your website causes people to be turned away. But I can name you > dozens of people to whom I referred the site to that said they never want to be > a CULT like the...BAHAI FAITH! > > Once again, thank you so much for doing a job such as causing people to turn > away and even leave the bahai faith. It is either you are the world's most > dumbass idiot or you are completely aware as to how much your site is a great > tool to use in refuting and exposing your stupid religion. > > Mahdi Muhammad ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:40 AM Subject: Re: bahai - TERRORISM 5 - Testimonies re US bahai community "Paul Hammond" wrote in message news:3bddb394@212.67.96.135... > > Robert Little wrote in message > news:3NMC7.25014$R9.7362017@typhoon.we.rr.com... > > > Baha'i elections> > > > Review works for me. Your response to the subject is an excellent > > verification, if any is needed, for why review exists. > > > > Why? What is there in my reply that deserves censorship? Paul, You don't think the way he does. That's reason enough. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 8:02 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Converting BOTH Muslims & Jews to Islam's New Testament, i.e., the Bahai Faith The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Pat Kohli" wrote in message news:3BDE160F.1FBBA635@ameritel.net... > > > Arjang Aarjan wrote: > > > hey nimeh piece of shiit--2 the rest that is nima hiiz!--y don't u whimper and > > cry > > about ur spamming bahai friends u pathetic excuse 4 a man???~~~<>RJ<> > > - > > - > > Hey, Arjangjanliebchencookoo! > > Fred is Fred and Patrick Henry is Fred. Fred is no Bounty at all. > > Get a clue about who is spamming U. > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 8:34 AM Subject: Re: Conference Call - Liberals & Fundamentalists The Universal House of Justice in Haifa is the legitimate institution of authority in the bahai faith. Sounds like you've made your decision. Why would you want to attend? The guardianship is dead, thank God. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship wrote in message news:3bde5660.36137351@news.aros.net... > > I believe teh Universal House of Justice is the legitgiamte > insititution for legislation in the Faith but not for interpretation, > Further, I belive the present one in Haifa is not the legititamate one > that is yet to be established with a living Guardian at as its > legitaitmate Head for Life. > > Based on that would we be welcome or not welcome at such a conference? > > > > On Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:18:46 -0500, "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good > Standing" wrote: > > >The Universal House of Justice is Baha'u'llah's legitimate > >institution of authority. > > > >I would think those who reject that fact wouldn't want > >to attend, whether extremist Muslim or whatever. > > > >-- > >Frederick Glaysher > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > >https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > > > > > > wrote in message > >news:3bd9c162.770952581@news.aros.net... > >> Would those of the Orthodox Baha'i Faith be able to attend, or would > >> it preclude any others from the BIGS from coming? > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:07:04 GMT, "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good > >> Standing" wrote: > >> > >> >Mr. Mahdi, > >> > > >> >I don't believe it would be appropriate for Muslims > >> >who have attacked and denied Baha'u'llah, as you > >> >yourself have, to be there. The conference, as I > >> >conceive it, would be largely for Baha'is, those who > >> >have accepted God's Manifestation for today, though > >> >anyone might attend as an observer, I suppose, as is > >> >done at many secular and religious conventions. > >> > > >> >Obviously, one needn't be a Baha'i to attend, and those > >> >who belong to Islam and are of goodwill should be welcomed. > >> > > >> >Frederick Glaysher > >> >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > >> >https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >"Mr Mahdi" wrote in message > >> >news:20011026130001.16211.00000036@mb-mf.aol.com... > >> >> Greetings Fred, > >> >> > >> >> If this debate on the bahai faith between the two sides ever take > >place, > >> >would > >> >> non-Muslims be allowed to join the discussion as well? > >> >> > >> >> Peace. > >> >> > >> >> Mahdi Muhammad > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 8:40 AM Subject: Threads 1-25 of about 21,300 in talk.religion.bahai Compare that to Threads 1-25 of about 18,100 in soc.religion.bahai (after how many more YEARS?) Something to be said for free speech: "This is a goodly temple and congregation, for--praise be to God!--this is a house of worship [Central Congregational Church in Brooklyn on 16 June 1912] wherein conscientious opinion has free sway. Every religion and every religious aspiration may be freely voiced and expressed here. Just as in the world of politics there is need for free thought, likewise in the world of religion there should be the right of unrestricted individual belief. Consider what a vast difference exists between modern democracy and the old forms of despotism. Under an autocratic government the opinions of men are not free, and development is stifled, whereas in a democracy, because thought and speech are not restricted, the greatest progress is witnessed. It is likewise true in the world of religion. When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization may give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are inevitable. Therefore, this is a blessed church because its pulpit is open to every religion, the ideals of which may be set forth with openness and freedom." --Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, 197. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 8:05 AM Subject: bahai - "Attacks by Bahais" & "Bahai Bullies" bahai - "Attacks by Bahais" & "Bahai Bullies" All of the allegations in this message remain true even now in the fall of 2001: The non-Bahai will note that a year later, now March 2000, my fellow Bahais only continue, with renewed ferocity, their attempts to silence and suppress what they don't want you to know about: Incessant Bahai attacks upon my freedom of speech and liberty, as well as on others, have made it necessary for me to adopt a persona for my own protection and well being. Other measures have been taken. During the late winter and spring of 1999, Bahais twice flooded my hotmail account with up to 1000 messages per day resulting in considerable inconvenience and expenditure of time and effort to block, and ultimately close, the offending accounts; they have, by using numerous Bahai trolls, especially Gyr Falcon, slandered, maligned, and caricatured me in a further effort to discredit me and portray me on talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere as a disturbed and errant individual; through concerted false charges and allegations against me, they have now succeeded in deceiving Hotmail into closing my email account, which I depended on for a considerable part of my income and livelihood. For documentation of many similar incidents of Bahai oppression during the last decade, see The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ----------------------------------------------------------- BULLYING: I'm alarmed at the Bahai attempts, during May of 1999, at character assassination, ridicule, and generally portraying me and others as disturbed individuals. This tactic has been used for over three years and continues to be used against me and other Bahais and non-Bahais or ex-Bahais on and off talk.religion.bahai. I have never claimed to be perfect. At times I have apologized to Bahais, Muslims, and other non-Bahais when I felt, or was convinced, that I was wrong or had spoken unfairly. I find the constant technique to portray me as a megalomanic or paranoid quite offensive. Similarly, the tactic of accusing me of spam for posting my opinions is calculated to discredit the validity of my and others' concerns regarding censorship in Bahai forums and has also been used on AOL. Such accusations reveal the frustration that Bahai fundamentalists apparently feel over my having found ways of enduring and resisting the onslaught of their concerted attacks, while preserving a historical record on a markedly ephermeral medium for innocent Bahais and non-Bahais.... Fair-minded Bahai and non-Bahai observers may judge for themselves whether my and others' allegations of censorship are valid by reading the record preserved under "Assorted Controversial Documents" on my website at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship As further corroboration that I am not the only person concerned with the intolerance and censorship that has overtaken the Bahai Faith, I recommend Professor Juan Cole's new book Modernity & the Millennium: The Genesis of the Bahai Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East, available through Columbia University Press or Amazon.com at https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0231110812/002-4036721-8058448 In his conclusion, which would never have passed the system of Bahai "review" that the UHJ imposes on all publications brought out under its tight control, Professor Cole, of the Department of History at The University of Michigan, quite accurately identifies the distortions that have been wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings: "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriachy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth- century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed." (196) He himself and many others, as evidence under the "Assorted Controversial Documents," have suffered at the hands of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the religion: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement." (201) These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on AOL, talk.religion.bahai, and alt.religion.bahai for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. The UHJ is also in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums of public discussion. I recommend all newcomers to these matters read "The Bahai Technique": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 9:55 AM Subject: Re: Amazement For details, non-bahais might want to look at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/CHarassment.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Freethought110" wrote in message news:9rot66$g52$1@perki.connect.com.au... > Absolute lies? I think not. All of us saw how you published Fred's phone > number and home address all over the internet. > > Been walking the dog lately?? ;-) > > > Freethought > > "Mark Elderkin" wrote in message > news:3bdfe61c@news.rivernet.com.au... > > I still find it amazing that someone of Freds caliber can afford the time > > that it takes to mass-produce the absolute trash that he has filled both > his > > website, this newsgroup and to many others websirtes worth mentioning. I > > have have had first hand experience with Fred and his manipulation of > facts > > and am still well mentioned in his website as someone who has threatened > > him. Absolute lies and clearly a fantasy that this retired author must > have > > created within his realms of menatl creativity. Just think what positive > > things might have existed had Fred only mangaed to use his skills in some > > positive and meaningful way. Fred has not been a Baha'i for years and this > > fact alone must stand as the reason for his continuous onslaught of the > > facts. Thank God for his mercies for some will have greater needs of this > > than others. > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 10:02 AM Subject: "Retired author" - apparently a smear of some sort.... how typical.... For people of goodwill: After fifteen years of working on it, I've finished a book-length poem, The Bower of Nil. The entire three-section poem is forthcoming in 2002. For those interested, the first section is now available at https://fglaysher.com/Bower.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:28 AM Subject: Re: bahai - "Attacks by Bahais" & "Bahai Bullies" https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/CHarassment.htm "The Bahai Technique": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mark Elderkin" wrote in message news:3be11eee@news.rivernet.com.au... > Fred............ you are a nut-case. A clever one. That fact remains as true > today as it has over the years that I have experienced your spamming and > lies. If the rules of conduct had ever been enforced, you would have nothing > to do here. You wouldn't be allowed. This is a great medium for you > though.............. No one can stop you lying, spamming, and generally > continuing to make a nuisance of yourself. You just sit and type and enter. > No responsibilities. No consequences. Any responses to your posts are just > referred to as personal threats and attacks. Get real here........... Your > paranoias are just not up to general standards set recently. Put as much > effort into your poetry as you do here being a pain in the backsides, and > maybe you will manage to come back from retirement. Then again.......... > maybe not. > > > > bahai - "Attacks by Bahais" & "Bahai Bullies" > > > > All of the allegations in this message remain true even now in > > the fall of 2001: > > > > > > The non-Bahai will note that a year later, now March 2000, > > my fellow Bahais only continue, with renewed ferocity, their > > attempts to silence and suppress what they don't want you > > to know about: > > > > Incessant Bahai attacks upon my freedom of speech > > and liberty, as well as on others, have made it necessary for > > me to adopt a persona for my own protection and well being. > > Other measures have been taken. > > > > During the late winter and spring of 1999, Bahais twice flooded > > my hotmail account with up to 1000 messages per day > > resulting in considerable inconvenience and expenditure > > of time and effort to block, and ultimately close, the > > offending accounts; they have, by using numerous Bahai trolls, > > especially Gyr Falcon, slandered, maligned, and caricatured > > me in a further effort to discredit me and portray me on > > talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere as a disturbed and errant > > individual; through concerted false charges and allegations against > > me, they have now succeeded in deceiving Hotmail into closing > > my email account, which I depended on for a considerable > > part of my income and livelihood. > > > > For documentation of many similar incidents of Bahai oppression > > during the last decade, see The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of > > Conscience: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > BULLYING: > > I'm alarmed at the Bahai attempts, during May of 1999, > > at character assassination, ridicule, and generally > > portraying me and others as disturbed individuals. This > > tactic has been used for over three years and continues > > to be used against me and other Bahais and non-Bahais > > or ex-Bahais on and off talk.religion.bahai. > > I have never claimed to be perfect. At times I have > > apologized to Bahais, Muslims, and other non-Bahais > > when I felt, or was convinced, that I was wrong or had > > spoken unfairly. I find the constant technique to portray > > me as a megalomanic or paranoid quite offensive. > > Similarly, the tactic of accusing me of spam for posting > > my opinions is calculated to discredit the validity of my and > > others' concerns regarding censorship in Bahai forums and > > has also been used on AOL. Such accusations reveal the > > frustration that Bahai fundamentalists apparently feel over > > my having found ways of enduring and resisting the onslaught of > > their concerted attacks, while preserving a historical record on > > a markedly ephermeral medium for innocent Bahais and > > non-Bahais.... > > > > Fair-minded Bahai and non-Bahai observers may > > judge for themselves whether my and others' allegations of > > censorship are valid by reading the record preserved under > > "Assorted Controversial Documents" on my website at > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > > As further corroboration that I am not the only person > > concerned with the intolerance and censorship that has > > overtaken the Bahai Faith, I recommend Professor Juan Cole's > > new book Modernity & the Millennium: The Genesis of the > > Bahai Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East, available > > through Columbia University Press or Amazon.com at > > https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0231110812/002-4036721-8058448 > > > > In his conclusion, which would never have passed the > > system of Bahai "review" that the UHJ imposes on all > > publications brought out under its tight control, Professor Cole, > > of the Department of History at The University of Michigan, > > quite accurately identifies the distortions that have been > > wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings: > > "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given > > answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, > > stressing scriptural literalism, patriachy, theocracy, > > censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key > > democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth- > > century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, > > continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a > > different set of emphases prevailed." (196) > > > > He himself and many others, as evidence under the > > "Assorted Controversial Documents," have suffered at the > > hands of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the > > religion: > > > > "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused > > tension in the community, whose present-day leadership > > tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, > > and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent > > academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the > > movement." (201) > > > > These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are > > evident on AOL, talk.religion.bahai, and alt.religion.bahai > > for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident > > to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may > > be trying to control and influence. > > > > As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always > > found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai > > fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and > > leaders of government, the United Nations, and public > > opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private > > or at Bahai-only meetings. > > > > Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that > > is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear > > and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha as > > the following: > > > > "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the > > conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that > > liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of > > morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets > > of the contingent world." > > > > Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. > > The UHJ is also in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics > > and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais > > merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums > > of public discussion. > > > > I recommend all newcomers to these matters read > > "The Bahai Technique": > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm > > > > Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, > > discusses related issues in his journal article "The > > Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": > > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:32 AM Subject: Exit one fanatics.... Enter another.... I'm assuming others have noticed too.... Changing of the "guard"? Dermod, are you sure you can't guess at any names? -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:49 AM Subject: bahai - Threats of Lawsuits bahai - Threats of Lawsuits The allegations made in this message remain true even now in the fall of 2001: Given the Bahai threats of lawsuits against me during the spring and early summer of 1999 let me say I have never committed slander against any individual, Bahai or otherwise, nor against any Bahai institution. If anyone has been slandered on talk.religion.bahai, it is I by the constant character assassination Bahais have marshalled against me since the fall of 1996. I'd be happy to appear in court and present an American judge and jury with the evidence of Bahai lies, deceit, censorship, and tyranny over the last decade. I highly doubt any legitimately established jury would look favorably on what Bahai fundamentalists have done to the Walbridges, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Stephen Scholl, and many, many other, indeed, TENS of THOUSANDS, of American ex-Bahais.... I'd be happy to appear in an American court and present the judge and jury with the many passages from the Bahai Writings in which the Figures speak favorably of free speech and conscience, such as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. Only one of the nine tyrants on Mt. Carmel could distort such passages to mean the kinds of things they have had the gall to foist on American Bahais in their statement this April, which Professor Juan Cole has candidly and accurately referred to as an "outburst of vehement ignorance." Bahais falsely accuse me of slander. Far from slandering the UHJ, I have stood up to Bahai fundamentalists and honestly spoken my conscience. They are free to call that "slander." I doubt any judge or jury in the West would call it such, especially after reading the EVIDENCE and reflecting on the enormous discrepancy between the sycophantic treatment leaders in government, the UN, and the media regularly receive from Bahais who are always interested in attempting to exploit their positions of power for one reason or another and the reality of abuse of the most basic human rights now well documented on Professor Juan Cole's website and on mine. I trust the American legal system to protect me from such organizations and fundamentalist reprobates. The objective observer will note the Bahai tactic of resorting to threats and intimidation instead of engaging in discussion of the actual incidents of censorship and oppression, extensively noted in https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm Such tactics remind me of a comment by Dr. Martin Luther King in his Letter from Birmingham Jail: "You deplore the demonstrations taking place in Birmingham. But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations." Fundamentalist Bahais typify this same mentality. They rail and threaten me, and others who dare speak their minds, but express no concern whatsoever for the underlying conditions of censorship and oppression that have led to distrust and contempt for the UHJ and its fascist distortion of Baha'u'llah's Teachings. Everything I have said is a matter of religious conscience protected under the US Constitution. My Bahai membership card proves it, and a scanned copy of it may be found on my website. I would be happy to present the original to any judge or jury in the land. "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." --Thomas Jefferson -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Why so many religions. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3bdde0ba@news.cybersurf.net... > | I cannot understand why there are so many religions, who is right > and > | does one reigion exist and not any others. If God wants man to come > to > | him why has he made it so hard to believe in him. > > Religion of God is one religion. As time passes and requirements of > the time changes, social laws of religion needs be changed and > updated. For this reason nearly every 1000 years a new representative > of God appears to renew these laws and also to renew spiritual life of > mankind. These representatives are called Prophets or Messengers or > Manifestations of God. > > for more information see: > https://www.bci.org/edmonton.bahais/basic_facts.htm > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 9:03 AM Subject: Re: Baha'i Faith: Basic Facts The prophets of decadence = bahai fundamentalists.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3bdf8cd6@news.cybersurf.net... Prophets of Decadence https://www.geocities.com/mesbah_javid/Prophets_of_decadence.html "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:QJwD7.210807$K6.103524165@news2... The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 8:52 AM Subject: Re: That's right: Opinions are not banned! Paul, You're entitled to your opinion, I to mine: The uhj is little better than the terrorists given their treatment of many individuals during the last decade. Immeditately after the WTC attack, the fundamentalist in question attempted to use the event to portray the uhj in a false light, sweeping its coercion and suppression of its own victims under the rug, lying about their true motives. That I didn't allow the person in question to get away with that apparently piqued him. Too bad. The person in question is the one who has lied about me, for years.... I don't immediately recall your ever being concerned about that fact.... The supposed apology in question was and is nothing more than a contemptible stratagem, one that's apparently duped you.... In the end, I have to say to you, Paul, if you really believe all of what you've typed below, you're a very naive and gullible participant on talk.religion.bahai, one who's barely scratched the surface of what's really going on here.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Paul Hammond" wrote in message news:3be1b4c8@212.67.96.135... > > Frederick Glaysher wrote in message > news:839be2af.0110310342.52a5b70e@posting.google.com... > > > > Want to understand bahai fundamentalism? Read this message: > > > https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.g > oogle.com&output=gplain > > > > > > Get off this kick, Fred. > > Dave swore at you once, when you compared the AO to Osama bin > Laden in the immediate aftermath of 6,000-odd cold-blooded > murders in New York. > > He has since had the grace for reacting to your provocation so > intemperately. > > Basically, whatever Dave said to you, you asked for it. > > Please quit hawking Dave's response around like it proves something, > when all it proves is that if you push someone often enough, eventually > you'll get their goat. > > Without context, pushing Dave's reply around as if it was a typical > example of his posting is tantamount to lying about him. Dave just > isn't like that, and I think it is wrong of you to pretend that Dave > hasn't apologised to you, and that you didn't ask for it. > > Paul > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Prophets of Decadence You're a fundamentalist liar. Your attempt here to dupe abuse@fu-berlin.de is laughable, especially given the fact soc.culture.iranian is an unmoderated newsgroup, where fanatics like you commit regularly the most outrageous things imagineable. The fact is you've been trying to suppress for years any mention of the Baha'i Faith on soc.culture.iranian, pro or con, because you're a supporter of the Khomenei regime and its idiocies and barbarisms, including the murder of many Baha'is.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "NoBullMan" wrote in message news:sVfE7.8890$xS6.12154@www.newsranger.com... > Just an info. > > > > to:abuse@fu-berlin.de > > The following individual has been spamming our news group soc.culture.iranian on > a daily basis with irrelevant material. many objections have been raised by the > group members and many newsgroups have banned this individual. Please stop > spamming by this individual to our newsgroup. Following is just an example of > the spam , you can visit soc.culture.iranian and see the number of spams > yourself. > > thank you in anticipation. > > From: "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" > Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian > Subject: Re: Prophets of Decadence > Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:30:27 -0600 > Lines: 9 > Message-ID: <9rrf69$vd28l$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de> > References: <3bdf8b0f@news.cybersurf.net> > NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.253.244.183 > X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 1004617738 32934165 206.253.244.183 (16 [75545]) > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 > Xref: www.newsranger.com soc.culture.iranian:39396 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In article <9rrf4h$vjdin$2@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de>, BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* > Good Standing says... > > > > > > > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > >https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > >"Mesbah" wrote in message > >news:3bdf965d@news.cybersurf.net... > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 9:38 AM Subject: BEWARE - Struggle for Your Heart & Mind Those new to talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai might want to consider that they have entered a psychological war zone, one in which bahai fundamentalists have been attempting for at least five years to portray many fellow bahais and non-bahais in exceedingly negative terms. A more than decade-long record of this psychological, spiritual battle may be quickly skimmed, or read to the degree of your interest, at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: bacquet@tco.net[SMTP:bacquet@tco.net] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 11:14 PM To: f_glaysher@hotmail.com Subject: Link Dear Fred, I found this while surfing through Angelfire, and thought you might be interesting in linking it to your page. It describes the experience of a kid that attended Maxwell Baha'i School. https://www.angelfire.com/vt/maxwell/index.html Love, Karen https://www.angelfire.com/ca3/bigquestions/Bacquet.html Download NeoPlanet at https://www.neoplanet.com ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 10:58 AM Subject: Maxwell Baha'i School - Welcome to the religious cult school from hell Someone has brought this link to my attention. Others might find it interesting. https://www.angelfire.com/vt/maxwell/ -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:36 AM Subject: Re: An Invitation by Edmonton Baha'is What bahai fundamentalists don't want you to know about may be found at the link below. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3be60b7f@news.cybersurf.net... ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:39 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Threats of Lawsuits "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9s27bn$10j5p0$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > "Pat Kohli" wrote in message > news:3BE488C6.62B92F3E@ameritel.net... > > > > I know, Pat! I just wish that the NSA had the cajones to write to > Fred to tell him that it has removed him from the membership rolls. > That would bring the matter to a. > > BTW that website ain't that secure - I read it regularly even though > it's a total bore! For anybody interested just put in the name > HENDERSON and a number I'm not divulging, lest they cull it too and > you'll get straight through to the most boring read since Milton lost > paradise! > > As ever, > > Dermod. Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Despite the slander of many fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, I have been a member of the bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my main bahai page. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. The reason the uhj allows and encourages fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to backbite and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet, and elsewhere may be discovered in the four messages below: To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ72498.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/uhj12-10-99.htm Open Petition for Baha'i Reformation February 8, 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Reformation.htm My Request Not to Receive the American Bahai 1996 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:59 AM Subject: DISHONESTY Zone - BEWARE Dermod, One may slander and lie for years about my status as a bahai, write an obscenely filthy message clearly intended to discredit me with unsuspecting non-bahais, and that's entirely acceptable.... I certainly don't believe any claims, including putative apologies, made by the person in question and who wrote this message: https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain For the record, I said and say the uhj is "little better" than the terrorists. That in my reading acknowledges they're not yet quite as despicable, though I believe, given their record, it is not unlikely, at this juncture, that they'll eventually devolve into similar violence as well. The hatred animating the person in question substantiates it. https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain Non-bahais new to this forum might also want to look at "The Bahai Technique": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9s4sdg$10kon1$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > "Paul Hammond" wrote in message > news:3be5db0c@212.67.96.135... > Hi Paul, > > Yeah! I have to agree with you! > > Dave is a guy well prepared and ready to indulge in dialogue and to > admit that the AO is far from perfect. I don't think he deserves the > treatment Fred is currently dishing out. > > Dave certainly sent an intemperate message but he apologised for it > and, to me at least, that's the end of it. Whilst I agree that certain > AO behaviour smacks strongly of terrorism, it cannot be equated in its > scope with what was done on 11 September in New York or in Omagh and > countless other locations here over these past 30 years. The AO has > not killed or physically maimed anybody - it has not left widows and > orphans in its wake. That is not to detract from the hurt it has > dished out but to put it into some perspective. > > Fred, please lay off the repetitious messages and let's get down to > some serious AO bashing around here! > > -- > As ever, > > Dermod. > > "In God We Trust - All others pay Cash!" > > > > > > Pat Kohli wrote in message > > news:3BE345D6.6F2AA21A@ameritel.net... > > > Allahu Abha! > > > > > > As a non-Baha'i who is not particularly biased in our AO vs critic > > skirmishes, I > > > think you might consider Paul the personification of the > "un-biased > > reader", the > > > guy you've been purportedly addressing yourself to, your audience. > His > > > criticism ought to count for something; regardless of whether or > not you > > agree > > > with it, his comments reflect what you've said, despite what you > may have > > meant. > > > > > > Hi Pat, or should I say AA! > > > > (for some reason, this always sounds like advice to visit Alcoholics > > Anonymous) > > > > I think you could put the case even more strongly than you have. > > > > I like to think that I am reasonable and fair-minded, it is true, > but > > if anything, you would have to count me as more on Fred and > > Dermod's side than anything else. > > > > From my point of view, the *substance* of Fred's criticism has a > > lot to be said for it. When I was new to Baha'i Cyberspace, and > > had not heard of Alison Marshall, for instance, several months ago, > > I took up Fred's oft-repeated entreaties to look at his web site, > and > > I feel that I learned a lot of valuable information from there, and > from > > some of the other sites he links too. > > > > However, the *method* leaves a lot to be desired. > > > > Since Fred's only message is "visit my website", it soon gets boring > to > > see this same message, repeated over and over, day after day, > > attached to any and every thread, often with little relevance to the > > subject under discussion. > > > > Anyhoo, having seen the entire situation which has led to Fred's > recent > > tactic of pinning "Boo-hoo, he swore at me" notes to every message > > that Dave sends to the forum, I felt I had to call him on this > childish > > nonsense. > > > > Doubtless, he'll move on to something else the next time he feels > > he has scored a point against one of his fundamentalist opponents, > > but for now he's hitting Dave hard, like it actually means anything > > that as an American, being compared to the people responsible > > for the worst terrorist action we have seen must have been very > > difficult for Dave to take. > > > > I understand perfectly why Dave lost his temper at that point. > > > > Paul > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Maxwell Baha'i School - Welcome to the religious cult school from hell Randy, I'm not sure what that slur is supposed to mean. This person, like the majority of bahais, in and out of the administration, haven't a clue about what Robert Hayden actually thought and said about the bahai faith and its fascist elements. His views are available for those who are intelligent enough to seek them out. Antinomies too deep for philistines.... Even putting the philistinism aside, it's evident that those lackies in charge of monitoring, as was recently mentioned, talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai, don't have a clue either, so little do they understand the intellectual and spiritual issues involved. Rigid minds find complexity and ambivalence too formidable for consideration. To them one question should always be asked, the crux of the issue: More than eighty years after its institution, has the "temporary measure" of "review" been lifted yet by the uhj? Elsewhere I spell these issues out more fully, in literary terms, more deeply, I would hope, than can be done in work-a-day prose. I suggest the non-bahai read the reflections below and then ponder why the bahai fundamentalists are so desperate to discredit me and other voices of conscience, as is further documented on my website: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Antinomies.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty there secrets of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the privateof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." --Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. "Lunar prescence, / foredoomed, already dying...." --Robert Hayden Nothing could prove it more than the conduct of the uhj during the last decade, betrayers of Abdu'l-Baha's own Words above.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Randy Burns" wrote in message news:38lF7.816$607.325805@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > Not until Robert Hayden grimaces! > > Randy > > -- > > Freethought110 wrote in message > news:9s4ift$ehm$1@perki.connect.com.au... > > I thought you said you were leaving. > > > > "Mark Elderkin" wrote in message > > news:3be5aa6d@news.rivernet.com.au... > > > Wouldn't Hayden be grimacing now? ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 7:19 PM Subject: Re: Maxwell Baha'i School - Welcome to the religious cult school from hell Thanks, for saying so, Randy. No amount of lying that "we're going to change" will ever amount to anything, in my opinion. Actions, not words, would have to be their adorning. My recent call for a conference to address this issue, with all parties attending, including the ao, was serious and remains open. I now believe there are many people who would like to find a real and substantive way to solve these issues. I'm not sure that many of them are in what purports to be the bahai administration. The minimal deeds would have to include the ending of review and its stifling effects throughout the bahai community, along with the replacement of personnel who have been central to the problem. Nothing less, in my opinion, will create the confidence and trust requisite for the transformation that might eventually lead to significant conversion, so profoundly needed.... No perceptive observer can fail to realize that the status quo guarantees only continuing atrophy and decline. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Randy Burns" wrote in message news:ZgAF7.173$Cx1.66770@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > Hi Fred > > You are very precise in locating a litmus test for change in the Faith: > > >To them one question should always be asked, the crux of the issue: > > More than eighty years after its institution, has the "temporary measure" > > of "review" been lifted yet by the uhj? > > The concept of review was understandable when first instituted but the > permanency of its establishment has changed the Faith from what it could > have been. The remaking of the Faith along the lines of Christian and > Western themes of rigid doctrinal policies is certainly not in keeping with > its Judeo-Islamic roots. > > It's nice to think that there could be a return to those roots, but > difficult to image how in the near future. > > Good luck in your endeavors, Randy > > -- > > BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing wrote > in message news:9s64ih$115epf$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > > Randy, > > > > I'm not sure what that slur is supposed to mean. This person, like > > the majority of bahais, in and out of the administration, haven't > > a clue about what Robert Hayden actually thought and said > > about the bahai faith and its fascist elements. His views are available > > for those who are intelligent enough to seek them out. Antinomies too > > deep for philistines.... > > > > Even putting the philistinism aside, it's evident that those lackies > > in charge of monitoring, as was recently mentioned, talk.religion.bahai > > and alt.religion.bahai, don't have a clue either, so little do they > > understand the intellectual and spiritual issues involved. Rigid minds > > find complexity and ambivalence too formidable for consideration. > > > > To them one question should always be asked, the crux of the issue: > > More than eighty years after its institution, has the "temporary measure" > > of "review" been lifted yet by the uhj? > > > > Elsewhere I spell these issues out more fully, in literary terms, more > > deeply, I would hope, than can be done in work-a-day prose. I suggest > > the non-bahai read the reflections below and then ponder why the bahai > > fundamentalists are so desperate to discredit me and other voices of > > conscience, as is further documented on my website: > > > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Antinomies.htm > > > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm > > > > "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is > > sacred and to be respected; and that liberty there secrets of the > contingent > > world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the > > privateof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of > > conduct, disclosure of the possessions of the heart and the soul, take > > place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court > of > > divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas > are > > within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; > > and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of > > hearts, not of [His] servants." --Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. > > > > "Lunar prescence, / foredoomed, already dying...." --Robert Hayden > > > > Nothing could prove it more than the conduct of the uhj during > > the last decade, betrayers of Abdu'l-Baha's own Words above.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > > > > "Randy Burns" wrote in message > > news:38lF7.816$607.325805@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > > > Not until Robert Hayden grimaces! > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Freethought110 wrote in message > > > news:9s4ift$ehm$1@perki.connect.com.au... > > > > I thought you said you were leaving. > > > > > > > > "Mark Elderkin" wrote in message > > > > news:3be5aa6d@news.rivernet.com.au... > > > > > Wouldn't Hayden be grimacing now? > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 7:28 PM Subject: Re: bahai - Threats of Lawsuits The allegations made by this person are a complete, blatant lie. I invite those interested in the truth to read my account below and to consider that the same person who is making such slanderous claim is the one who wrote the vulgar attack on me available at https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain In 1996 my request to the circulation department for the American Bahai, repeated twice and perhaps a third time, read, "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." I had torn off the preprinted address change label regularly published on the back page of the American Bahai and mailed it into the address given for subscription changes. I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be removed from the mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, no threat, etc.... Dermod Ryder's speculation that willingness to receive the American Bahai has become compulsory should give pause.... Again, note well, I used the address on the back of the American Bahai given specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write the nsa, its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the simplest of requests: remove my name and address from your mailing list. Not a word or suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith, nor any criticism of it whatsoever, real nor implied. I conveyed my wishes to the proper address, as announced in the American Bahai itself. That I received a response back from an entirely different address speaks volumes, as they say. After six years, I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. I've scanned the letter so others might read the original. I am not about to accept the slander and backbiting of fanatics and fundamentalists nor allow them to provoke me into one action or another. I prefer the facts: Again, I declared my belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976 and notified the nsa, who sent me back the declaration card available on my homepage. I have never notified them otherwise. They, as distinguished from liars and sycophants online, have never notified me to the contrary. Scanned orignials at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm The other two letters were related to the Detroit local spiritual assembly and its junk mail. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0111051240.4d5df95e@posting.google.com... > Dermod and Pat, > > > Likely it will be held as another example of bahai harassment after > > > Fred has pleaded w/ the bad bahai AO to be left in peace. > > > > It may well be but it sure would have weakened the ground under those > > who think that the NSA (and the rest of the AO) is cowardly with a > > great big yellow streak right up the spine. > > > You guys are both overlooking the fact that Fred requested to be > removed. Why would the NSA confirm something for which they were > given a written request. > > Fred asked - they did what he asked - end of story. > > Cheers, > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:02 AM Subject: Re: Baha'i Writings in Persian The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3be82617@news.cybersurf.net... ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:03 AM Subject: Re: The Earth is But One Country The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3be60935@news.cybersurf.net... ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:07 AM Subject: Re: Baha'is Invite You The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3be44bef@news.cybersurf.net... ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:09 AM Subject: Re: Iranian genocide of its indigenous Baha'i minority. The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3be42e15@news.cybersurf.net... | | The *modern* Iran, IMO, is a zoo of fanatics of all sorts | of religions each at each other's throat and each talking | on their own right with their "God" through their 'bottoms' | if you will! | So Aqa Dariush, are we now at the proper time to tell them: ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 8:01 AM Subject: Re: That's right: Opinions are not banned! "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9schpq$12bjq2$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message > news:f0853486.0111071202.790ca5cb@posting.google.com... > Dave, > > > > > With regard to the number and nature of incidents as described on > > > Fred's site and elsewhere - > > > > > > Once is happenstance, > > > Twice is coincidence, > > > But the third time? That's ENEMY ACTION! > > > > Look, removal of ones membership is a legitimate sanction in the > > Faith. If it is used then why is the assumption made that it should > > not be used? Should we not use punitive measures because they may > > hurt someone? > > Don't isolate it into one specific area! Fred's site contains a lot > of gems apart from Alison and Micheal. The LA group, the termination > of Dialogue, Juan's midnight roasting, the denunciation of Modest > Proposal, the Bahai Intelligence Agency (some contradiction in this, > surely!)surveillance of Nima, Paul Dodenhoff's disclosure on being > ordered to spy on BIGS, Albuquerque LSA, etc., all, when grouped > together, form a pattern which readily slips into my Three Times Rule. > There is other minor but corroboratory circumstantial evidence as > well. Dermod, you identify well how widespread the transgressions are against the liberties of my fellow bahais. Again, the standard ruse has been for years to portray me as the anomaly and sweep aside the record I've tried to piece together, as best I can, to protect and defend the undeniable Teachings of Abdu'l-Baha. > Consider, for example, the Corps of ABMs for Protection and the > Counsellors. They protect the faith from its enemies. But what > enemies are they deployed against? How many ABMs or Counsellors have > fallen in battle whilst engaged in combat here against the spiritually > corrosive? Not a one! Why? Because they do not battle the external > enemies of the Faith. Theirs is a predatory battle against the > internal enemy. And that circumstantially supports the hypothesis > that the BIGS are controlled as to the expression of their views by > the Thought Police. If Protection is not practised on the Internet by > active defence of the Faith on the open fora by the institution of the > learned (some mistake here, surely!) what the hell are these gomers > engaged in? You might want to look more closely at the archives I have for Bahai-Discuss - a closed circuit mailing list for fanatics, in and out of the ao. Many abms and their various lackies are HEAVILY involved in the suppression online of dissent. Skim around in Bahai-Discuss Archive - Fall of 1997 https://balder.prohosting.com/~bahai/archive.htm > > You come here as an earnest BIGs to defend and uphold the dignity of > the Faith. You get mauled every day by the said spiritually > corrosive. What support do you get? Is the heavy artillery of the > Consellors deployed to support you? Are there squadrons of heavily > armoured ABMs charging the foe? No feckin' way! You're the poor > grunt in the foxhole with shit raining down on him day and daily (just > like the Taleban). And what are the REMF Counsellors and ABMs doing? > They're spying on your and everybody's else's E-mail! And do these > guys give one tinker's fart about what you have to endure, are they > concerned that their Faith is hacked and slashed here, these guys > sworn to protect it? Only slightly but only if it seems you are about > to be corroded! They're behind the scenes, largely, but they come out of their holes in many ways and closely direct and regulate what transpires here, on AOL, and elsewhere. Juan Cole stated a year or two ago that he believed or had evidence that fundamentalists were involved in attempting to distort what's available through the major search engines, which I believe too. They have their cadre of sycophants who do here their dirty work of character assassination and slander.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 8:12 AM Subject: Re: That's right: Opinions are not banned! "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9schpq$12bjq2$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > > Don't isolate it into one specific area! Fred's site contains a lot > of gems apart from Alison and Micheal. The LA group, the termination > of Dialogue, Juan's midnight roasting, the denunciation of Modest > Proposal, the Bahai Intelligence Agency (some contradiction in this, > surely!)surveillance of Nima, Paul Dodenhoff's disclosure on being > ordered to spy on BIGS, Albuquerque LSA, etc., all, when grouped > together, form a pattern which readily slips into my Three Times Rule. > There is other minor but corroboratory circumstantial evidence as > well. > > Consider, for example, the Corps of ABMs for Protection and the > Counsellors. They protect the faith from its enemies. But what > enemies are they deployed against? It occurs to me you or others who might be aware of it, might find interesting the little email a bm threatened me with in March of 1997 when it appeared that talk.religion.bahai was about to pass the news.group vote, apparently a frightening prospect to her. See the bottom of the page at this link: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm Fanatics for years have lied about her attempt to coerce me into silence, defending her as just sending me an innocent missive, which to non-bahais unfamiliar with what was really going on might appear to be the case.... Such is the duplicity still regularly employed.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 8:16 AM Subject: bahai - Islam's New Testament bahai - Islam's New Testament See what may be expected from it given its record during the last decade: The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 8:28 AM Subject: bahai - Islam's New Testament bahai - Islam's New Testament - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Read or skim the decade-long record of its coercion and suppression of freedom of speech and conscience. The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 8:28 AM Subject: bahai - Islam's New Testament - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience bahai - Islam's New Testament - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Read or skim the decade-long record of its coercion and suppression of freedom of speech and conscience. The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 8:29 AM Subject: bahai - Islam's New Testament - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience bahai - Islam's New Testament - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Read or skim the decade-long record of its coercion and suppression of freedom of speech and conscience. The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 9:01 AM Subject: bahai - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0111051240.4d5df95e@posting.google.com... > Dermod and Pat, > > You guys are both overlooking the fact that Fred requested to be > removed. Why would the NSA confirm something for which they were > given a written request. > > Fred asked - they did what he asked - end of story. > AGAIN, this allegation is an unmitiaged LIE, a twisting and distorting of what happended in order to fit the fanaticism and hatred that runs rife in fundamentalist bahai circles. For details regarding what I did request see below. I have NEVER requested to be removed from the bahai rolls nor denied my belief in Baha'u'llah. The tactic of denying my membership is the bahai faith by this fundamentalist is clearly calculated to discredit my criticism of censorship regularly imposed by the bahai institutions. I invite those interested in the truth to read my account below and to consider that the same person who is making such a slanderous claim is the one who wrote the vulgar attack on me available at https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain In 1996 my request to the circulation department for the American Bahai, repeated twice and perhaps a third time, read, "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." I had torn off the preprinted address change label regularly published on the back page of the American Bahai and mailed it into the address given for subscription changes. I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be removed from the mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, no threat, etc.... Dermod Ryder's speculation that willingness to receive the American Bahai has become compulsory should give pause.... Again, note well, I used the address on the back of the American Bahai given specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write the nsa, its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the simplest of requests: remove my name and address from your mailing list. Not a word or suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith, nor any criticism of it whatsoever, real nor implied. I conveyed my wishes to the proper address, as announced in the American Bahai itself. That I received a response back from an entirely different address speaks volumes, as they say. After six years, I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. I've scanned the letter so others might read the original. I am not about to accept the slander and backbiting of fanatics and fundamentalists nor allow them to provoke me into one action or another. I prefer the facts: Again, I declared my belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976 and notified the nsa, who sent me back the declaration card available on my homepage. I have never notified them otherwise. They, as distinguished from liars and sycophants online, have never notified me to the contrary. Scanned orignials at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm The other two letters were related to the Detroit local spiritual assembly and its junk mail. See my message below for other relevant details. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Despite the slander of many fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, I have been a member of the bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my main bahai page. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. The reason the uhj allows and encourages fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to backbite and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet, and elsewhere may be discovered in the four messages below: To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ72498.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/uhj12-10-99.htm Open Petition for Baha'i Reformation February 8, 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Reformation.htm My Request Not to Receive the American Bahai 1996 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 9:02 AM Subject: bahai - Islam's New Testament - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience bahai - Islam's New Testament - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Read or skim the decade-long record of its coercion and suppression of freedom of speech and conscience. The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 9:17 AM Subject: bahai - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0111051240.4d5df95e@posting.google.com... > Dermod and Pat, > > You guys are both overlooking the fact that Fred requested to be > removed. Why would the NSA confirm something for which they were > given a written request. > > Fred asked - they did what he asked - end of story. > AGAIN, this allegation is an unmitiaged LIE, a twisting and distorting of what happended in order to fit the fanaticism and hatred that runs rife in fundamentalist bahai circles. For details regarding what I did request see below. I have NEVER requested to be removed from the bahai rolls nor denied my belief in Baha'u'llah. The tactic of denying my membership is the bahai faith by this fundamentalist is clearly calculated to discredit my criticism of censorship regularly imposed by the bahai institutions. I invite those interested in the truth to read my account below and to consider that the same person who is making such a slanderous claim is the one who wrote the vulgar attack on me available at https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.g oogle.com&output=gplain In 1996 my request to the circulation department for the American Bahai, repeated twice and perhaps a third time, read, "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." I had torn off the preprinted address change label regularly published on the back page of the American Bahai and mailed it into the address given for subscription changes. I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be removed from the mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, no threat, etc.... Dermod Ryder's speculation that willingness to receive the American Bahai has become compulsory should give pause.... Again, note well, I used the address on the back of the American Bahai given specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write the nsa, its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the simplest of requests: remove my name and address from your mailing list. Not a word or suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith, nor any criticism of it whatsoever, real nor implied. I conveyed my wishes to the proper address, as announced in the American Bahai itself. That I received a response back from an entirely different address speaks volumes, as they say. After six years, I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. I've scanned the letter so others might read the original. I am not about to accept the slander and backbiting of fanatics and fundamentalists nor allow them to provoke me into one action or another. I prefer the facts: Again, I declared my belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976 and notified the nsa, who sent me back the declaration card available on my homepage. I have never notified them otherwise. They, as distinguished from liars and sycophants online, have never notified me to the contrary. Scanned orignials at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm The other two letters were related to the Detroit local spiritual assembly and its junk mail. See my message below for other relevant details. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Despite the slander of many fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, I have been a member of the bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my main bahai page. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. The reason the uhj allows and encourages fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to backbite and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet, and elsewhere may be discovered in the four messages below: To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ72498.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/uhj12-10-99.htm Open Petition for Baha'i Reformation February 8, 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Reformation.htm My Request Not to Receive the American Bahai 1996 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 4:40 PM Subject: Re: Just a thought... - Poetry in the Nuclear Age Instead of your spewing out fundamentalist bile, I challenge you and other literalists among my fellow bahais to attempt to understand my writing. In addition to having finished this year The Bower of Nil, I've recently posted an essay, Poetry in the Nuclear Age, making it available now, since, alas, it seems the times have so woefully caught up.... https://fglaysher.com/NuclearA.htm Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 4:42 PM Subject: Re: BAHA'U'LLAH'S SUMMONS TO THE WORLD'S RELIGIOUS LEADERS COLLECTIVELY The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3beae6fa@news.cybersurf.net... BAHA'U'LLAH'S SUMMONS TO THE WORLD'S RELIGIOUS LEADERS COLLECTIVELY O concourse of divines! Ye shall not henceforth behold yourselves possessed of any power, inasmuch as We have seized it from you, and destined it for such as have believed in God, the One, the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Unconstrained. [Baha'u'llah]...details... https://www.bci.org/edmonton.bahais/proclamation_details.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 8:01 AM Subject: Re: Just a thought... - Poetry in the Nuclear Age RIGHT. The factual record tells a different story: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/CHarassment.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mark Elderkin" wrote in message news:3beba3c2@news.rivernet.com.au... > Fred.... > Fundamentalist bile!!!!!!!! You certainly must have bit your tong on > that statement. For years you have spewed forth nothing but a spammed form > of repetitive crap. You have intentionally cross-posted to other NGs with > the intention of promoting hatred and libelous slander. You have been told > and retold hundreds of times and yet you continue to this day to post the > same stuff. Your website is fiction and I won't even go into the things you > have accused me of. Personally I don't really care about that anyway. > Why would I even think of considering your writing......or attempts > threof.........when I know and see your daily drible. I admit that there > even may be the slimmest of possibilities that you had a talent............ > but then you retired Someday I'll clue you in on what I do to earn a > living........... you might be surprised. > M > > > > > Instead of your spewing out fundamentalist bile, I challenge you and other > > literalists among my fellow bahais to attempt to understand my writing. > > > > In addition to having finished this year The Bower of Nil, I've recently > > posted an essay, Poetry in the Nuclear Age, making it available now, > > since, alas, it seems the times have so woefully caught up.... > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 8:13 AM Subject: 25,000 + hits - MORE HITS THAN BAHAIS in USA - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 9:58 AM To: infoserv@affcultinfoserve.com Subject: Re - Overcoming the Bondage of Revictimization - A Rational/Empirical Defense of Thought Reform As a member of the Baha'i Faith for over twenty-five years, I believe one of your articles erroneously states: "Before seeing a cult member, exit counselors who are thorough will make a reasonable determination that the group member really is in a group that uses thought-reform techniques. Those who are not subjected to mind-control, even though the family may think they are (e.g., a family complains that their son in Baha'i no longer goes to Christian church services and therefore must be under mind-control) will not be considered for an exit counseling." https://www.csj.org/pub_csj/csj_vol15_no2_98/defendthoughtreform7.htm I urge AFF to reconsider this assessment of Baha'i mind-control techniques in light of the extensive decade-long abuse of individual rights and liberties against Baha'is and non-Bahai's that is documented on my and Professor Juan Cole's websites. Professor Juan Cole at the Department of History, University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 10:11 AM Subject: bahai - Islam's New Testament - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of bahai - Islam's New Testament - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Read the decade-long record of its coercion and suppression of freedom of speech and conscience. The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 10:12 AM Subject: bahai - Islam's New Testament - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of bahai - Islam's New Testament - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Read the decade-long record of its coercion and suppression of freedom of speech and conscience. The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 8:11 AM Subject: Re: bahai - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - LIES - "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0111051240.4d5df95e@posting.google.com... > Dermod and Pat, > > You guys are both overlooking the fact that Fred requested to be > removed. Why would the NSA confirm something for which they were > given a written request. > > Fred asked - they did what he asked - end of story. > AGAIN, this allegation is an unmitiaged LIE, a twisting and distorting of what happended in order to fit the fanaticism and hatred that runs rife in fundamentalist bahai circles. For details regarding what I did request see below. I have NEVER requested to be removed from the bahai rolls nor denied my belief in Baha'u'llah. The tactic of denying my membership is the bahai faith by this fundamentalist is clearly calculated to discredit my criticism of censorship regularly imposed by the bahai institutions. I invite those interested in the truth to read my account below and to consider that the same person who is making such a slanderous claim is the one who wrote the vulgar attack on me available at https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain In 1996 my request to the circulation department for the American Bahai, repeated twice and perhaps a third time, read, "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." I had torn off the preprinted address change label regularly published on the back page of the American Bahai and mailed it into the address given for subscription changes. I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be removed from the mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, no threat, etc.... Dermod Ryder's speculation that willingness to receive the American Bahai has become compulsory should give pause.... Again, note well, I used the address on the back of the American Bahai given specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write the nsa, its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the simplest of requests: remove my name and address from your mailing list. Not a word or suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith, nor any criticism of it whatsoever, real nor implied. I conveyed my wishes to the proper address, as announced in the American Bahai itself. That I received a response back from an entirely different address speaks volumes, as they say. After six years, I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. I've scanned the letter so others might read the original. I am not about to accept the slander and backbiting of fanatics and fundamentalists nor allow them to provoke me into one action or another. I prefer the facts: Again, I declared my belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976 and notified the nsa, who sent me back the declaration card available on my homepage. I have never notified them otherwise. They, as distinguished from liars and sycophants online, have never notified me to the contrary. Scanned orignials at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm The other two letters were related to the Detroit local spiritual assembly and its junk mail. See my message below for other relevant details. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Despite the slander of many fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, I have been a member of the bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my main bahai page. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. The reason the uhj allows and encourages fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to backbite and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet, and elsewhere may be discovered in the four messages below: To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ72498.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/uhj12-10-99.htm Open Petition for Baha'i Reformation February 8, 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Reformation.htm My Request Not to Receive the American Bahai 1996 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:05 AM Subject: Re: 9 Rules for Teaching Baha'is the Faith "metavoyager" wrote in message news:a1cd413f.0111131359.2efa0719@posting.google.com... > > Could you provide any information that you feel a neophyte should > review before attending this meeting? snip > - Gary The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:29 AM Subject: Re: Why I Don't Respond to bahai Fundamentalists "DW Suiter" wrote in message news:3bf0af83_4@corp-goliath.newsgroups.com... > I have found Frederick Glaysher's posts to be very informative. I certainly > do not see him as > Self appointed........ self regulated...........and self manipulated. He, as > with any individual, has a right to speak on any matter he desires. What I > see, is what he has stated. Attempts of others to censure, control, oppress, > and quiet his voice. Thanks, DW, for saying so. The fundamentalist tactic of maligning and smearing dissenters is very difficult, I fear, for many newcomers to see through, which the fundies relie upon. Of course, it's not only my voice that receives such treatment on talk.religion.bahai, AOL, and elsewhere, by the extremists among my fellow bahais, which you apparently realize. > The question all persons should ask is; "Is what he says true?" This same > questions should be asked in regards to what any one says. I agree. That's all I've ever asked or asserted. That I have invited people to look at and decide for themselves about the ever-mounting EVIDENCE of bahai tyranny and evil is what has enraged and continues to enrage the literalists. > Instead of attempting to degrade or demonize a person, the word of the > person should be addressed by principle. The tactics many use are indeed as > he says and epitomize the mind and spirit that persecuted the man Jesus of > Nazareth. > > DW Suiter Alas, demonization has long been "The Bahai Technique," as many have remarked after bitter experience: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm Evil relies upon an ancient repertoire.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > "Mark Elderkin" wrote in message > news:3bf03a6f@news.rivernet.com.au... > > > > > I can only hope by serving humbly, as the self-appointed > > > archivist/historian for talk.religion.bahai and for all the many victims > > > of the "universal" house of "justice," that someday someone will come > > > along who will dig deep enough into the record so that the truth will > > > begin to surface. > > > > Self appointed........ self regulated...........and self manipulated. Do > you > > really believe that anyone has ever excepted you in this self appointed > > position. Do you really think anyone here thinks you have any such > > qualifications? You wouldn't know justice if it bit you in the arse. > Since > > your retirement, you have become more and more bitter about these things > and > > it is just not a pretty site. Get some hobbies to keep your mind busy. > Maybe > > read some poetry. IF you ask nicely...... I'll send you a book of rhyming > > words to help. > > M > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:57 AM Subject: Re: Maxwell Baha'i School - Welcome to the religious cult school from hell Those interested might want to look at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/CHarassment.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mark Elderkin" wrote in message news:3befaa43@news.rivernet.com.au... > Dear Matt, > Would you like to tell me why you feel justified in suggesting that I'm > trying to harm Baha'u'llah? I think maybe you need to rethink this idea and > get back to me. Telling Fred that he is continually guilting of spamming and > cross-posting. with the intent to harm the Faith is an apparent ongoing > situation. Fred involved me the day he felt obliged to include me on his > website. I can't really remember having any dialogue with you, Matt, and > maybe we will keep it that way for now. Possibly starting off with a warning > for me to be careful may be a bad one and surely you don't me well. I have > been know to throw caution to the wind in the past and it has worked for > almost 50 years. > Mark > > > Dear Mark, > > > > Be careful, please. Baha'u'llah said that the only ones who could > > truly harm Him were those who love Him. > > > > Matt > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 8:14 AM Subject: Re: Why I Don't Respond to bahai Fundamentalists "Randy Burns" wrote in message news:E3EI7.697$Ck6.141661@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > Dave > > I've started a dialogue with you more than once and I found it to be a > lamentable waste of time. David Fiorito appears in my Archivescombined73100.zip file for the first time in July of 1997 and has been relentlessly harrowing the wicked here on talk.religion.bahai ever since. Having witness his predictable fundamentalism for so long, I know it's a waste of time, and am under no obligation to squander my time "discussing" anything with him or any other intolerant, dishonest, and self-righteous lacky for the worst elements of the bahai administration. I for one > can understand why Fred might choose to pass up your spendiferous > invitation. Such "invitations" are calculated to deceive the non-bahai observer who is newly arrived here and hasn't witnessed bahai fanaticism for years as we have. He's worsend with time, in my view. Those who want to look at the record might search with any text editor the above-mentioned file for David Fiorito: https://balder.prohosting.com/~bahai/archive.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > They say that brains are a terrible thing to waste. Better takes yours out > for some exercise. > > Cheers, Randy > > -- > > Dave Fiorito wrote in message > news:f0853486.0111141143.5cb8a2c1@posting.google.com... > > > > He also claims to be sincere about working to solve the differences > > that appear here on TRB/ARB. Yet, when I offered to take him up on it > > by starting a dialogue he snubbed me. > > Dave > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 8:26 AM Subject: Re: Why I Don't Respond to bahai Fundamentalists I might add that I'm not interested in any "invitations" from the person who wrote this message: https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain It ought to be clear to any rational person why I would feel that way.... I expect the response to this message will be the predictable one.... Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:9t0bfb$15m199$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > "Randy Burns" wrote in message > news:E3EI7.697$Ck6.141661@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > > Dave > > > > I've started a dialogue with you more than once and I found it to be a > > lamentable waste of time. > > David Fiorito appears in my Archivescombined73100.zip file for the > first time in July of 1997 and has been relentlessly harrowing the wicked > here on talk.religion.bahai ever since. Having witness his predictable > fundamentalism for so long, I know it's a waste of time, and am under > no obligation to squander my time "discussing" anything with him or any > other intolerant, dishonest, and self-righteous lacky for the worst elements > of the bahai administration. > > I for one > > can understand why Fred might choose to pass up your spendiferous > > invitation. > > Such "invitations" are calculated to deceive the non-bahai observer who is > newly arrived here and hasn't witnessed bahai fanaticism for years as we > have. > He's worsend with time, in my view. Those who want to look at the record > might search with any text editor the above-mentioned file for David > Fiorito: > https://balder.prohosting.com/~bahai/archive.htm > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > > They say that brains are a terrible thing to waste. Better takes yours out > > for some exercise. > > > > Cheers, Randy > > > > -- > > > > Dave Fiorito wrote in message > > news:f0853486.0111141143.5cb8a2c1@posting.google.com... > > > > > > He also claims to be sincere about working to solve the differences > > > that appear here on TRB/ARB. Yet, when I offered to take him up on it > > > by starting a dialogue he snubbed me. > > > Dave ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 8:41 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Terrorism & ON-OFF Line Stalking bahai - Terrorism & OFF- ONline Stalking After twenty-five years as a member of the bahai faith, I see *little* difference between the basic underlying fanaticism of the perpetrators of the WTC terrorist attack and the fundamentalism of the worst elements among my fellow bahais. You're entitled to your view. I to mine. I cite Dave Fiorito's intolerant, threatening, hateful post as further EVIDENCE, along with much of the documentation on my website. https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain In my view, only the uhj can begin to remedy this situation by abolishing the censorship of "review" and ceasing to interpret out of existence of the moderate and liberal Teachings on free speech and conscience, thereby by setting a new direction and tone for the faith. Realism requires me to acknowledge it's very unlikely ever to happen.... I consider it my duty, as a bahai and otherwise, to inform my fellow believers and citizens of how grave matters truly stand within what purports to be Baha'u'llah's religion. Some of the evidence may be found at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/hate.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/CHarassment.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/BahaiThreatsLawsuit.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/BahaiAttacksonme.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Ex.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 8:49 AM Subject: Some may be interested in looking in on BeliefNet.com Some may be interested in looking in on BeliefNet.com https://www.beliefnet.com discussion boards, especially the one titled Baha'i Faith Challenge & Critique. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 8:50 AM Subject: For insight into what the fundamentalism of the uhj has done For insight into what the fundamentalism of the uhj has done to the souls of my fellow bahais, compare now the following link: https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.g oogle.com&output=gplain Permit me to state that I have never even remotely used such language or approach with my fellow bahais during the last several years online. And again, no one among my fellow bahais spoke up when this individual revealed what really lies behind the facade of bahai love and unity.... Newcomers to talk.religion.bahai might find helpful "The Bahai Technique": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 9:00 AM Subject: The BAHAI TALIBAN One may slander and lie for years about my status as a bahai, write an obscenely filthy message clearly intended to discredit me with unsuspecting non-bahais, and that's entirely acceptable, in fundamentalist quarters.... I certainly don't believe any claims, including putative apologies, made by the person in question and who wrote this message: https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain For the record, I said and say the uhj is "little better" than the terrorists. That, in my reading, acknowledges they're not yet quite as despicable, though I believe, given their record, it is not unlikely, at this juncture, that they'll eventually devolve into similar violence as well. The hatred animating the person in question substantiates it. Non-bahais new to this forum might also want to look at "The Bahai Technique": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:17 AM Subject: What bahai fundamentalists don't want you to know about What bahai fundamentalists don't want you to know about may be found at the link below. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3be60b7f@news.cybersurf.net... ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:22 AM Subject: No amount of lying that "we're going to change" will ever amount No amount of lying that "we're going to change" will ever amount to anything, in my opinion. Actions, not words, would have to be their adorning. My recent call for a conference to address this issue, with all parties attending, including the ao, was serious and remains open. I now believe there are many people who would like to find a real and substantive way to solve these issues. I'm not sure that many of them are in what purports to be the bahai administration. The minimal deeds would have to include the ending of review and its stifling effects throughout the bahai community, along with the replacement of personnel who have been central to the problem. Nothing less, in my opinion, will create the confidence and trust requisite for the transformation that might eventually lead to significant conversion, so profoundly needed.... No perceptive observer can fail to realize that the status quo guarantees only continuing atrophy and decline. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Randy Burns" wrote in message news:ZgAF7.173$Cx1.66770@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > Hi Fred > > You are very precise in locating a litmus test for change in the Faith: > > >To them one question should always be asked, the crux of the issue: > > More than eighty years after its institution, has the "temporary measure" > > of "review" been lifted yet by the uhj? > > The concept of review was understandable when first instituted but the > permanency of its establishment has changed the Faith from what it could > have been. The remaking of the Faith along the lines of Christian and > Western themes of rigid doctrinal policies is certainly not in keeping with > its Judeo-Islamic roots. > > It's nice to think that there could be a return to those roots, but > difficult to image how in the near future. > > Good luck in your endeavors, Randy > > -- > > BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing wrote > in message news:9s64ih$115epf$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > > Randy, > > > > I'm not sure what that slur is supposed to mean. This person, like > > the majority of bahais, in and out of the administration, haven't > > a clue about what Robert Hayden actually thought and said > > about the bahai faith and its fascist elements. His views are available > > for those who are intelligent enough to seek them out. Antinomies too > > deep for philistines.... > > > > Even putting the philistinism aside, it's evident that those lackies > > in charge of monitoring, as was recently mentioned, talk.religion.bahai > > and alt.religion.bahai, don't have a clue either, so little do they > > understand the intellectual and spiritual issues involved. Rigid minds > > find complexity and ambivalence too formidable for consideration. > > > > To them one question should always be asked, the crux of the issue: > > More than eighty years after its institution, has the "temporary measure" > > of "review" been lifted yet by the uhj? > > > > Elsewhere I spell these issues out more fully, in literary terms, more > > deeply, I would hope, than can be done in work-a-day prose. I suggest > > the non-bahai read the reflections below and then ponder why the bahai > > fundamentalists are so desperate to discredit me and other voices of > > conscience, as is further documented on my website: > > > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Antinomies.htm > > > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm > > > > "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is > > sacred and to be respected; and that liberty there secrets of the > contingent > > world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the > > privateof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of > > conduct, disclosure of the possessions of the heart and the soul, take > > place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court > of > > divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas > are > > within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; > > and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of > > hearts, not of [His] servants." --Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. > > > > "Lunar prescence, / foredoomed, already dying...." --Robert Hayden > > > > Nothing could prove it more than the conduct of the uhj during > > the last decade, betrayers of Abdu'l-Baha's own Words above.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > > > > "Randy Burns" wrote in message > > news:38lF7.816$607.325805@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net... > > > Not until Robert Hayden grimaces! > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Freethought110 wrote in message > > > news:9s4ift$ehm$1@perki.connect.com.au... > > > > I thought you said you were leaving. > > > > > > > > "Mark Elderkin" wrote in message > > > > news:3be5aa6d@news.rivernet.com.au... > > > > > Wouldn't Hayden be grimacing now? > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:32 AM Subject: Re: Násiri'd-Din Shah The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3bf3587c@news.cybersurf.net... "Look upon this Youth, O King, with the eyes of justice; judge thou, then, with truth concerning what hath befallen Him...They that surround thee love thee for their own sakes, whereas this Youth loveth thee for thine own sake, and hath had no desire except to draw thee nigh unto the seat of grace, and to turn thee toward the right-hand of justice..." Násiri'd-Din Shah, in the plenitude of his power, was dramatically assassinated while at prayer on the eve of a jubilee celebration designed to go down in history as the greatest day in the annals of the Persian nation. The fortunes of his hapless house thereafter steadily declined, the scandalous and irresponsible misconduct of his successor leading to the ignominious eclipse and final disappearance of the Qájár dynasty. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:33 AM Subject: Re: Baha'i World Faith -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3bf34b46@news.cybersurf.net... Copyright © 2001 www.Bahai.com. All Rights Reserved. https://bci.org/edmonton.bahais/resources.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Edmonton Baha'is Local Events -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mesbah" wrote in message news:3bee2e15@news.cybersurf.net... https://bci.org/edmonton.bahais/local_events.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:55 AM Subject: bahai - "universal" house of "justice" BEGS for more MONEY The "universal" house of "justice" writes, > The present crisis in the Baha'i International Fund is due, in > considerable measure, to.... The uhj continues to fail to understand the nature of the crisis in the bahai funds, as it does in the continuing decline in membership. The fault, on both counts, lies with its own fundamentalist program of Talibanizing the Teachings of Baha'u'llah and suppressing free speech and conscience. During the last decade it has driven quite literally THOUSANDS of people, in the US and elsewhere, out of the bahai faith with its ignorant fanaticism, distortions, and appalling interpretations of the Baha'i Writings. It will come as no surprise to observers familiar with its record that the uhj cannot meet its expenses and is once again pumping bahais for more MONEY.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Freethought110" wrote in message news:9t0g4h$gqb$1@perki.connect.com.au... > Summary of latest message by Universal House of Pancakes: GIVE US MORE > MONEY! > > Read below: > -- > THE UNIVERSAL HOUSE OF JUSTICE > > 12 November 2001 > > To the Baha'is of the World > > Dear Baha'i Friends, > > The Major Plan of God is at work throughout the world, hastening > the disintegration of the old order as the new one unfolds. While it > is propelling forward a social transformation of a magnitude never > before witnessed, fear and uncertainty grip the consciousness of a > majority of the world's people, who remain unaware of God's purpose > in this Day. There is a growing sense of a fundamental change of far- > reaching dimensions that chills preoccupation with the pleasures and > comforts of material existence. In the midst of this turmoil, the > Divine Will for humankind is being achieved. > > The progress being made by the community of the Greatest Name is > a cause for the deepest satisfaction. Its members, undismayed by the > surrounding distraction and distress, labour to provide reassurance > and insight to those with whom they come in contact, making sure that > the confident vision that informs their actions is not clouded by the > limited perspective of the mass of humanity. Current world events > offer Baha'is an opportunity to demonstrate the application of the > remedy brought by the Divine Physician. > > At this critical moment, we find ourselves compelled to turn to > you, our co-workers, to inform you of the pressing need for a marked > increase in the contributions to the Baha'i International Fund. A > great portion of the resources in this Fund is expended outside the > Holy Land for the advancement of the Cause of God. These expenditures > are of special importance at this time when the Five Year Plan gives > every indication of yielding a significant advance in the process of > entry by troops in the years ahead. This same Fund must finance the > operation of the Baha'i World Centre, the maintenance of the sacred > properties in the Holy Land, the conduct of the pilgrimage programme, > and the defence and proclamation of the Faith. > > We now appeal for a response to this need from all the followers > of Baha'u'llah. Our appeal is addressed to all without exception: > those of modest means as well as those who possess substantial > resources. Your immediate and sustained action is imperative, for the > discharge of your spiritual obligation to contribute towards the > advancement of the Cause can suffer no delay. The blessings that flow > from your sacrificial deeds are assured. > > The present crisis in the Baha'i International Fund is due, in > considerable measure, to the sharp reduction in resources available, > consequent to the economic downturn afflicting much of the world. It > arises also, in part, from the necessity to provide assistance from > the Baha'i International Fund to sustain the work of the Faith in the > growing number of countries devastated by warfare, internal division, > and endemic poverty. However, a major cause of our present deep > concern is the necessity to maintain, at a befitting standard, the > buildings and gardens at the > > > > To the Baha'is of the World 12 November 2001 > Page 2 > > World Centre. An indication of the increase of costs is that the area > of gardens has now more than doubled. > > The Baha'i International Fund must not fail to meet these needs. > To assist it, we have decided to set up the World Centre Endowment > Fund, for the preservation, upkeep, and security of the edifices and > precincts of the Spiritual and Administrative Centres of the Faith-- > activities that currently form so large a part of the > responsibilities of the Baha'i International Fund. This decision > follows the example of Shoghi Effendi, who during his ministry > dedicated the income from lands in the environs of the Jordan Valley > for the upkeep of the Holy Shrines. > > This Endowment Fund, to which you are urged to contribute, > beyond your general support of the Baha'i International Fund, will > initially be used to defray the related expenses, estimated at the > present time to be seven million dollars annually. Whatever balance > remains unexpended at the end of each year will be retained as an > earmarked fund and, as it grows in the years ahead, will provide a > continuing source of investment income dedicated to maintaining the > magnificent setting of these Holy Places. These precincts were > created gradually, during the past century, through the sacrificial > outpouring of resources by the believers who responded to the vision > of Baha'u'llah and supported the strenuous endeavours of the Master > and the Guardian. It is essential that this splendour, befitting so > sacred a place, be preserved undiminished in the decades and > centuries ahead. > > Our ardent supplication in the Holy Shrines is for the > reinforcement of the consecrated endeavours of the lovers of the > Blessed Beauty in every land, as they respond to the needs of the > ever-advancing Cause of God. > > > > [signed] The Universal House of Justice > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 7:49 AM Subject: Re: Dr. Maneck's New Censorship Technique What may be expected from such "bahai scholars" may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "`~-=x[silvermask]=-~`" wrote in message news:3bf8198d$0$230$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be... > I have no clue as to why the author of this post perceives Maneck as any > form of threat. For all intents and purposes, she is a harmless lady > struggling for recognition of her achievements. Did anyone know that she > has a dozen degrees and diplomas "hanging under her belt." Those degrees > and diplomas may be in subjects like basket weaving and making American > Quilts. But they *are* diplomas and degrees, and may I ask how many of you > have earned that? > > As for censorship? You get censored by those whom you choose! > > > "American Bahai" wrote in message > news:20011117021231.10665.00000266@mb-fd.aol.com... > > Dr. Maneck: > > > > My you've been unusually busy, and working with great speed, making > 13 > > short posts from 9:06 PM to 10:00 (A posting every 4 minutes for one hour) > all > > under "RE: This is Baha'i", pushing my posting down the list. Stop > > interfering with others' rights, PLEASE. You are in violation of TOS for > > Google Usenet Groups, because by doing this you are "restricting or > inhibiting > > any other user from using and enjoying the Groups." I have therefore > reported > > you for abuse of this service. > > > > > > Join us at Heart of the Baha'i Faith! ---> > > https://groups.yahoo.com/group/heartofthebahaifaith > > HBF is an oasis for Baha'is and their friends. Higher Unity is our goal, > > through friendship, discussion and research on the Covenant and the > > Guardianship. > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 9:12 AM Subject: Re: Dr. Maneck's New Censorship Technique To understand further the extent of Ms. Maneck's duplicity, it might be helpful to look at the AOL links and messages: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.txt The article you mention by Juan Cole about her is indeed highly revealing. I agree with his opinion that she has no intergrity whatsoever. Gharidian is a fundamentalist hack abm that she serves.... It's my impression that Maneck and Foster have worked together, or separately, for the same ends, at times.... It should be noted that Maneck conspires in numerous ways on AOL with the current ayotollah there.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9tcdd5$1n9i1$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" > wrote in message > news:9tarh3$1c020$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > > What may be expected from such "bahai scholars" may be judged > > from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: > > > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm > > > > See her slandering other views as garbage: > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm > > > > See her slandering other views as litter: > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm > > Dear Fred, > > What a revelation! What a manifestation of duplicity! My oh my! So > the dear lady has been long in the espionage game - long before she > spied on me (and others) on Zuhur. There is but one question I have > to ask - did she teach Mark Foster to spy (however incompetently) or > did he teach her? Is the fact that Foster did it ineptly, as it > appears she did as well, a clue that might reveal the answer? > > I feel we should be told! BTW who is Ghadirian - "M" to Jemima Bond > (the dear lady's alter ego)? > > As ever, > > Dermod. > > > -- > "Two people in every one who works for the AO is schizophrenic." > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 9:22 AM Subject: Re: Dr. Maneck's New Censorship Technique Oops! Make that link and htm file: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:9tg944$2ess2$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > To understand further the extent of Ms. Maneck's duplicity, > it might be helpful to look at the AOL links and messages: > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.txt > > The article you mention by Juan Cole about her is indeed > highly revealing. I agree with his opinion that she has no > intergrity whatsoever. Gharidian is a fundamentalist hack abm > that she serves.... It's my impression that Maneck and Foster > have worked together, or separately, for the same ends, > at times.... It should be noted that Maneck conspires in > numerous ways on AOL with the current ayotollah there.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message > news:9tcdd5$1n9i1$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" > > wrote in message > > news:9tarh3$1c020$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > > > What may be expected from such "bahai scholars" may be judged > > > from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: > > > > > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm > > > > > > See her slandering other views as garbage: > > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm > > > > > > See her slandering other views as litter: > > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm > > > > Dear Fred, > > > > What a revelation! What a manifestation of duplicity! My oh my! So > > the dear lady has been long in the espionage game - long before she > > spied on me (and others) on Zuhur. There is but one question I have > > to ask - did she teach Mark Foster to spy (however incompetently) or > > did he teach her? Is the fact that Foster did it ineptly, as it > > appears she did as well, a clue that might reveal the answer? > > > > I feel we should be told! BTW who is Ghadirian - "M" to Jemima Bond > > (the dear lady's alter ego)? > > > > As ever, > > > > Dermod. > > > > > > -- > > "Two people in every one who works for the AO is schizophrenic." > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Dr. Maneck's New Censorship Technique "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011121114441.22507.00001861@mb-cg.aol.com... > >The article you mention by Juan Cole about her is indeed > >highly revealing. I agree with his opinion that she has no > >intergrity whatsoever > > Hmmm. And would you agree with him that it is okay to tamper with primary texts > as he has done repeatedly on his website? You're a liar and a slanderous bitch.... Cole has treated you, on more than one occasion, like the dirt you are, so now you try to get even behind his back. You're pathetic.... Oh, yes, a bahai scholar, indeed. SOOOO impressive.... > >Gharidian is a fundamentalist hack abm > >that she serves.... > > Ahhh, now you really know what you are talking about. Counselor Ghadirian is > not an ABM. And he has been a true friend to me in very difficult times. But I > have never had the pleasure of serving with the man. Same difference, a liar and a fraud, like so many in what passes for the bahai administration today.... You do his dirty work for him, as Juan Cole or somebody has attested on more than one occasion, as I recall..... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship What may be expected from such "bahai scholars" may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm > >It's my impression that Maneck and Foster > >have worked together, or separately, for the same ends, > >at times... > > Sure we do. We run the Baha'i Studies list together, at least when Dr. Foster > is not in occultation. > > > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 12:37 PM To: jrcole@umich.edu Subject: Re: Dr. Maneck's New Censorship Technique "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011121114441.22507.00001861@mb-cg.aol.com... > >The article you mention by Juan Cole about her is indeed > >highly revealing. I agree with his opinion that she has no > >intergrity whatsoever > > Hmmm. And would you agree with him that it is okay to tamper with primary texts > as he has done repeatedly on his website? You're a liar and a slanderous bitch.... Cole has treated you, on more than one occasion, like the dirt you are, so now you try to get even behind his back. You're pathetic.... Oh, yes, a bahai scholar, indeed. SOOOO impressive.... > >Gharidian is a fundamentalist hack abm > >that she serves.... > > Ahhh, now you really know what you are talking about. Counselor Ghadirian is > not an ABM. And he has been a true friend to me in very difficult times. But I > have never had the pleasure of serving with the man. Same difference, a liar and a fraud, like so many in what passes for the bahai administration today.... You do his dirty work for him, as Juan Cole or somebody has attested on more than one occasion, as I recall..... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship What may be expected from such "bahai scholars" may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm > >It's my impression that Maneck and Foster > >have worked together, or separately, for the same ends, > >at times... > > Sure we do. We run the Baha'i Studies list together, at least when Dr. Foster > is not in occultation. > > > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:01 PM Subject: Re: Dr. Maneck's New Censorship Technique For Cole's comments back in January on Maneck's slander, see https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole2001.htm Then click Edit, Find "Maneck" for message below and other comments: JuanFrom: "Juan Cole" Subject: Re: common ground Date: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:20 AM I do not have the time or the inclination to spend a lot of time on usenet right now, but since I have been slandered (and not for the first time) by Susan Stiles Maneck in her recent posting, I am forced to reply (yet again) to these falsehoods. But first, I would like to make my own mea culpas. I retract almost everything I said about the faith on email between May 4, 1996 and January 30, 1999. I was very depressed in the wake of the false charges that were launched against me, and as a result had temporarily lost my faith, which had been at the core of my being for 24 years. I am a very sensitive person, and this was a nightmare ordeal for me. I had the misfortune of being among the first persons in history to live through such a period of disorientation in the age of the Internet. Lots of rightwing Baha'is were eager to misrepresent themselves as my friends so as to get out of me my innermost thoughts, and these have been archived in Haifa, and Maneck posts private messages from me from that period occasionally in order to discredit me. Well, if it matters, I know I said a lot of things that were overdrawn or overly emotional, in my hurt, and I disavow them now. I consider myself a follower of Baha'u'llah again, now (however much I am unwanted), and while I am empathetic with my unbelieving self, that is no longer me. I am glad to admit I got lots of things wrong. Peter Khan's family was Muslim before becoming Baha'i. An Australian Baha'i misled me that they had at one point been Christian. I was wrong. The members of the House of Justice have all kinds of cars and not just Mercedes. However, they do preside over a budget that runs to hundreds of millions of dollars, and their refusal to publish any budget breakdown does raise questions about the nature of finances in Haifa. However, if I got their car types wrong or imputed to them chauffeurs they don't have, I am glad to retract. Accuracy means a lot to me. Pilgrims had told me these things, and they were pilgrims I trust more than I trust Maneck, but where there is doubt one cannot claim certainty. Moreover, some of my motives in talking about the members' lifestyle were hurt at the enormous injustice they had done to me, which was an unworthy motive. >And the hypocrisy of their actions became increasingly apparent. They >would complain of censorship and then tell me when I was moderator of >H-Bahai that I shouldn't allow somebody to post because they were >an "ultramontanist" and a "big Nixon supporter." Let's talk a little bit about hypocrisy. From about August of 1997, when Maneck started secretly working for "counselor" Ghadirian, she began sending him regular spy reports of the confidential deliberations of its academic editors. She began attempting to disrupt the list and "muddy the waters" in accordance with her instructions. We have a rule that subscribers should have a master's degree or more in the humanities or social sciences, to ensure an academic tone to discussions. She suddenly announced that she was going to start enrolling persons without those credentials. One of the persons she proposed to enroll in this maverick way was a lawyer who is also an Auxiliary Board Member for Protection, and who is no academic. I said no. I said that, moreover, the person had kooky ideas about Nixon having been innocent & etc. I mentioned his thinking Dick Nixon was the innocent target of a smear campaign (!!!) as yet another piece of evidence that this person was not a bona fide academic; but lack of credentials was what was determinative. Maneck's announcement that she would ignore the rules and do as she pleased; her frequent rejection of posts from Steve Scholl and other liberals on purely ideological grounds; her vicious insults directed at a prospective liberal moderator with the intent of scaring him away from helping the list; her constant spy reports to Ghadirian; her expression of delight that a subscriber had signed off that she viewed as a 'covenant breaker' because she intended to mount a campaign on the list to firm the academics up in the covenant; were all capped by a demand that I resign as editor. Ultimately she voluntarily resigned from her editorship in disgrace because she inadvertently supplied evidence, in the course of her persecution of me, that she was spying on the list for Ghadirian. She later publicly accused me on this very list of having fired her! While I would have if I could have, that was for the Editorial Board, and she did not give even them the opportunity. The fact is that she was misusing her position on an academic list to undermine its independence in favor of the imposition of some wacky fundamentalist orthodoxy, and she is still sore at having failed. >When they tried to persuade me that the Faith had been > taken over by a secret cabal going back to Mason Remey and Horace >Holley, I *really* had to step back and ask myself just what had I gotten myself into? If you knew anything about American Baha'i history you would know that both those individuals were deeply involved in creating a rightwing Baha'i culture. As for a cabal, I was upset when I said that. But it isn't far-fetched that the rightwing Counsellors who have taken over the Faith have some sort of at least informal network that allows them to politick so successfully and to come to power and remain there. On the other hand, this phenomenon could be more haphazard. I frankly don't know. At the time, I was commiserating with someone I thought a friend. And people say I never admit having been wrong! > Then I was sent a rough draft of the Panopticon article and saw it was filled > with distortions about matters where they author had to know better. The Panopticon article is not filled with distortions. I believe every word of it to be true, and I believed so when I wrote it. And, I sent it to Maneck for her comments, virtually all of which I incorporated into the final draft. So, if it was 'filled with distortions' she had every chance to set me straight on *all* of them, and it is her own fault if she did not. > Meanwhile, unfounded charges were being made saying things like the House had > ordered Abbas Amanat expelled from the Faith which I knew simply weren't true. If that is what you thought was being said, no wonder you thought it wasn't true. What I said was that Derek Cockshut waged a brutal campaign to protest the Bahai Publishing Trust's carrying Abbas Amanat's *Resurrection and Renewal* in 1989 when it came out. And that the NSA took the issue to the House of Justice. And that the House of Justice wrote that it was all right to carry the book because Abbas Amanat "is not a Baha'i." Abbas, however, was and is an enrolled Baha'i in the US community, and he has never disavowed faith in Baha'u'llah. In the wake of the 1990 letter the NSA sent him several insulting letters demanding to know his conscience (I thought there was no confession in our religion?) He declined to reply, last I knew. `Abdu'l-Baha in the Hizar Bayti said we don't have the Muslim custom of declaring believing Baha'is to be infidels because we don't like their views, and I found the arrogance of the 1990 letter breathtaking. It was my first clue that something was very rotten in Haifa, and it wasn't just Wilmette. If Maneck turned against me because of this statement, she *reallY* wronged me! > Or I was told that the NSA of Canada had sold off a important collection within > their archives to prevent it from falling into the hands of academics, > something which proved to be utterly false. First of all, I've said publicly a number of times that I was wrong about that. It seems to me a relatively minor little affair, anyway. I got the story's details wrong, and a more knowledgeable poster corrected them. However, I am unaware that the NSA of Canada has provided its INBA set (manuscript facsimiles of the Baha'i Writings) to any scholars, and I think Maneck knows that it is problematic whether they would do so. > And something else would happen as well. I would start have arguments with > people on Talisman on basic issues like the existence of revelation and began > to realize that the people I was supporting didn't really believe in it in any > meaningful way. In other words, we had to be basically fundamentalists or neo- Calvinists or something, or else Maneck would gleefully join in the auto-da-fe against anything we said. Her idea of "Revelation" isn't dogma that all Baha'is have to accept, and her problems with deism are her problems. >But it was becoming increasingly apparent that if I went down, I > wasn't going down alone and began to realize that for the sake of >these Baha'is I needed to search for solutions rather than add to the >problems. So I began to behave much less recklessly. If you had behaved less recklessly that would have been fine. You turned into a Stasi-like spy, a fifth columnist, and an Inquisitor. And you decided that only by waging a smear campaign against me could you hope to make Baha'i scholarship acceptable to the fundies. That, you didn't have to do. These actions warped your personality and made you a poor Baha'i. > Right around this time there was a very lurid thread going on on Talisman > discussing some prominet Baha'i's supposed sexual indiscretions. Then Juan came > bursting on to Talisman saying, "I've been backbitten and so have you!" It was > in reference to a talk Counselor Gharian had made in London critical of the > Talisman list. Ghadirian's talk in London wasn't critical just of the Talisman list. He libelled me and David Langness and did all but issue Anathemas against us just as though he were an ayatollah in a turban. (And I thought you weren't supposed to backbite; David was a particular victim in this). Ghadirian should be careful. In the U.K., libel is easy to prove. As for the other issue, that a high Baha'i official resigned in disgrace from his profession for sexual harassment and then was immediately appointed to a cushy Baha'i job in Geneva was of interest to talismanians like Linda Walbridge. She had been threatened with being declared a covenant breaker for advocating more rights for Baha'i women, including service on the House of Justice. And here was a man in the old buddy system of high Baha'i administration who was actually promoted despite a public scandal that was in the newspapers. It wasn't just a matter of gossiping about someone's private life. It was outrage that innocent liberals were persecuted out of the faith and calumnied, but if you had friends in high places you could get away with anything. > Ghadirian. how his saintliness and love eventually overcame my fears and > suspicions. Oh, yeah, all the saints I know call meetings in London to backbite people, and then have their agents spy on people and make reports about their confidential conversations. Why, the KGB was full of saints in its heyday!! Maneck can't see that the only reason she got love-bombed by this manipulative physician was precisely because of his hope of gaining a spy "asset" known to be in close contact with me. And I have to hand it to him, he did a world-class job of turning her into a mole. >I began to realize that the House of Justice > was not out to destroy academic scholarship on the Baha'i Faith as I >had mistakenly believed all those years, It seems to be pretty arbitrary. Some people seem to be able to publish and not get in any particular trouble. Others are come down on like a ton of bricks, and it is not always clear why. I wonder if the unpredictability of it isn't intended to disrupt scholarship by making the academics nervous about saying anything at all about the faith. Denis MacEoin told me the story of how House of Justice members Ian Semple and David Hoffman threatened him and chased him out, destroying his faith. And, of course, we all saw what happened to the academics who dared speak publicly on talisman-1. >and that they did not eat scholars for breakfast Mainly they seem to threaten them them with some form of ostracization if they don't fall silent. But they do this to some and not to others. I have never been able to figure out why. sincerely, Juan Cole "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:9tgokv$2gj1k$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > "Susan Maneck " wrote in message > news:20011121114441.22507.00001861@mb-cg.aol.com... > > >The article you mention by Juan Cole about her is indeed > > >highly revealing. I agree with his opinion that she has no > > >intergrity whatsoever > > > > Hmmm. And would you agree with him that it is okay to tamper with primary > texts > > as he has done repeatedly on his website? > > > You're a liar and a slanderous bitch.... Cole has treated you, on > more than one occasion, like the dirt you are, so now you try > to get even behind his back. You're pathetic.... Oh, yes, a bahai > scholar, indeed. SOOOO impressive.... > > > > >Gharidian is a fundamentalist hack abm > > >that she serves.... > > > > Ahhh, now you really know what you are talking about. Counselor Ghadirian > is > > not an ABM. And he has been a true friend to me in very difficult times. > But I > > have never had the pleasure of serving with the man. > > > Same difference, a liar and a fraud, like so many in what passes for the > bahai administration today.... You do his dirty work for him, > as Juan Cole or somebody has attested on more than one occasion, > as I recall..... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > What may be expected from such "bahai scholars" may be judged > from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm > > See her slandering other views as garbage: > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm > > See her slandering other views as litter: > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm > > > > > >It's my impression that Maneck and Foster > > >have worked together, or separately, for the same ends, > > >at times... > > > > Sure we do. We run the Baha'i Studies list together, at least when Dr. > Foster > > is not in occultation. > > > > > > Susan Maneck > > Associate Professor of History > > Jackson State University > > > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no > time > > left to start again . . " > > Don McLean's American Pie > > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:04 PM Subject: Re: ***Ms.*** Maneck's New Censorship Technique Make that "Ms" Maneck.... Like so many contemptible hacks in academia today, she doesn't the title, in my opinion.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 8:15 AM Subject: Re: Dr. Maneck's New Censorship Technique What may be expected from such "bahai scholars" may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011122033517.08228.00001931@mb-md.aol.com... > And oh yeah. We might as well repost my response to Juan's message: > > From: Susan Maneck (smaneck@aol.com) > Subject: Re: common ground > Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai > Date: 2001-01-15 01:22:02 PST > > > >Maneck posts private messages from me from > >that period occasionally in order to discredit me. > > Sorry, the stuff about Peter Khan being of fundamentalist Christian background > or Mr. Arbab having a chauffer-driven Mercedes were all public postings, not > private. > > >From about August of 1997, > >when Maneck started secretly working for "counselor" Ghadirian, > > Nonsense. I was never *working* for Counselor Ghadirian. August of 1997 was the > time when I first called me and slowly began to pour my hear out to him, > nothing else. However, when I saw the manner in which Juan was manipulating > H-bahai by refusing to allow posts that followed his political line and > threatened to have me removed as moderator if I would not go along with this, > (if was in this context that he complained of my putting up posts by "a big > Nixon supporter " I did inform Counselor Ghadirian of what was happening. > > > She began attempting to disrupt the list > >and "muddy the waters" in accordance with her instructions. > > Talk about slander! I challenge Dr. Cole to produce my so-called instructions. > > >We have a > >rule that subscribers should have a master's degree or more in the > >humanities or social sciences, to ensure an academic tone to > >discussions. She suddenly announced that she was going to start > >enrolling persons without those credentials. > > Nonsense. What I did was point out that Dr. Cole was allowing lawyers on the > list so long as they were of liberal persuasion while excluding more > conservative ones. Furthermore I pointed out that the supposed 'big Nixon > supporter" whose post Dr. Cole had put up such a big stink about had seminary > training. > > (The person he was seeking to exclude btw, was Auxiliary Board Member Brent > Poirer. Far from being a big Nixon supporter, incidently he was tried for > draft-dodging during the Vietnam war.) > > >One of the persons she > >proposed to enroll in this maverick way was a lawyer who is also an > >Auxiliary Board Member for Protection, and who is no academic. I said > >no. > > I never tried to subscribe him, I simply let him put up one post. But I did > point out the hypocrisy of allowing liberal lawyers with a similar of > credentials to subscribe. > > >Maneck's announcement that she would ignore the rules > > Again, I challenge Dr. Cole to produce a copy of an "announcement" from me that > I would ignore the rules. > > >her frequent rejection of posts from Steve Scholl and other > >liberals on purely ideological grounds; > > I rejected purely ideological posts having no academic merit. When I took this > position Cole had promised me it would be dedicated solely to scholarhship and > not be politicized as Talisman had been. Instead it was made into a forum for > unscholarly attacks against the Institutions. > > >her vicious insults directed at > >a prospective liberal moderator with the intent of scaring him away > >from helping the list; > > I don't even no what the heck Juan is talking about here? And how would he know > my intent? > > >her > >expression of delight that a subscriber had signed off that she viewed > >as a 'covenant breaker > > ???? Who pray tell, did I view as a Covenant breaker? > > There was one person who was posting a lot of semi-Remeyite stuff on the > list, but I was in fact posting his stuff. It was Cole who insisted I reject > it. > > >because she intended to mount a campaign on the > >list to firm the academics up in the covenant; were all capped by a > >demand that I resign as editor. > > This is such nonsense. When Juan demanded my resignation I said I would resign > if he did. > > >Ultimately she voluntarily resigned > >from her editorship in disgrace because she inadvertently supplied > >evidence, in the course of her persecution of me, that she was spying > >on the list for Ghadirian. > > What I did, was tell Counselor Ghadirian what was going on in relationship to > Cole's attempts to remove me as moderator. In connection with this I > inadvertantly forwarded some documentation of this intended for Counselor > Ghadirian to H-Bahai editorial board. > > > She later publicly accused me on this very > >list of having fired her! > > As Cole well knows, the efforts to remove me as moderator were well underway > before the misforwarded post. In fact the reason that post accidently got > forwarded is that I intended to use the same material to present my case to the > H-Bahai board. Unfortunately, it still had Counselor Ghadirian's name on it. > > >The Panopticon article is not filled with distortions. I believe every > >word of it to be true > > Including your suggestion that the NSA, especially Firuz Khazemzadeh stopped > mass teaching because they were afraid to many black people would get elected > to that body? Very strange given the fact that Khazemzadeh's wife is black and > his black stepson currently serves as secretary-general. > > >So, if it was 'filled with distortions' she had > >every chance to set me straight on *all* of them, and it is her own > >fault if she did not. > > Oh, I pointed them out all right! > > In regards to my comment: > > >> Meanwhile, unfounded charges were being made saying things like the House > had > >> ordered Abbas Amanat expelled from the Faith which I knew simply > >weren't true. > > Cole wrote: > > >If that is what you thought was being said, no wonder you thought it > >wasn't true. > > He did indeed say it, and in public. This is what he wrote: > > "Take another look at the uhj's letter to the > Canadian NSA about Michael McKenny. I don't remember the wording being > substantially different than in their letter to the US NSA about Professor > Amanat." > > He further wrote: > > "Since he was from a Baha'i family and formally enrolled in the UK and then > US Baha'i communities, declaring him "not a Baha'i" was certainly an > expulsion." > > Now how does one equate a letter to the Canadian NSA telling them that someone > should be removed from Baha'i membership to a letter saying that the Baha'i > Distribution Service is allowed to carry someone's book? > > He went on to say that unlike in Michael's case the NSA refused to go along > with his removal, as if any NSA would have dared to ignore such an order! > > Cole insists that what he told me was the following: > > >Derek Cockshut waged a brutal > >campaign to protest the Bahai Publishing Trust's carrying Abbas > >Amanat's *Resurrection and Renewal* > > In fact, Cole said nothing about Derek in connection with this thread. This is > the first I've heard of it, in fact. Thiis is what Cole had written: > > "With regard to Professor Amanat's book, *Resurrection and Renewal*, the > author refused to submit it for prepublication "review" by the Baha'i > authorities, and as a result the "universal" house of "justice" sent a > letter to the US NSA announcing that Professor Amanat is "not a Baha'i." > However, the US NSA declined to take formal action against him, leaving > him technically on the rolls! There was, of course, a lively controversy > in Wilmette over whether his book could be carried by the Baha'i distribution > service. " > > [And these were all public postings, Karen.] > > Note that the reference to this issue over whether the BDS is presented here as > an afterthought instead of the reason why the House was being consulted. The > book, by the way, was did pass the review by the UK after the fact. Instead > Juan makes it look like they simply came out with this grand announcement. When > I challenged him on this point he insisted the House said this as an "anathema" > rather than in the context of giving the BDS permission to carry the book! > > >In the wake of the 1990 letter the NSA sent him several > >insulting letters demanding to know his conscience > > In the midst of all the confusion regarding Amanat's status I hardly think it > insulting for them to ask him if in fact he was a Baha'i. The House didn't > think he was, members of his own family didn't think he was, he had never > transferred his membership from the UK to the US so the logical thing was for > the NSA to ask! > > Susan Maneck > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 8:15 AM Subject: Re: Dr. Maneck's New Censorship Technique What may be expected from such "bahai scholars" may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011122033233.08228.00001930@mb-md.aol.com... > > > > > >You're a liar and a slanderous bitch.... > > Temper, temper Fred. But since you want to repost the links to Juan's message > let's repost my original message so we all know what he is responding to. > > From: Susan Maneck (smaneck@aol.com) > Subject: Re: common ground > Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai > Date: 2001-01-13 15:12:24 PST > > > > > >What where your motives then exactly, Susan? > > Dear Nima, > > Ignoring the rudeness of your question, I wrote the following letter to > Counselor Ghadirian explaining what often occured with the academics in > relationship to the Faith. > > "We academics, in particular, are in a difficult position. In most cases we > began our studies holding to the same beliefs as the majority of the community. > Admittedly, we probably had more doubts than average, for it was our very > questions which drove us in that direction. But what academic study did was > raise more > questions still. And as we began to investigate and research various areas we > discovered things that didn't fit with the standard paradigms we had been > taught. Eventually, we had to re-examine those > paradigms in light of the reality we saw and reformulate the way in which we > understood our Faith. Largely we had to do this on our own, for the Baha'i > community at large, even those in the highest positions of authority not only > did not know the answers to the questions we would > raise, they were unfamiliar with research discoveries that led to those > questions. Generally they could not understand the questions themselves.At > least the answers we received did not make us feel we'd been "heard" or > understood. > > In many cases our reformulations seemed to bare little resemblance to those of > the community at large. I well understand the dangers that such idiosyncratic > formulations may create, for the temptation is often to make one's self the > ultimate > source of authority. And it is undeniably true that some of the academics and > those associated with them ended up doing just > that, whether they intended to our not. I, myself, have no wish to make a > religion after my own image, for I am all too acutely aware of my need for > God and His Revelation. But I am faced with the > dilemma that neither can I close my eyes to what I have seen as an academic or > unknow the things I know. In other words, there is no real way back to one's > former understanding. And when the > community seems to demand this I am at a loss as to what to do. I would give my > life for Baha'u'llah, but how can I sacrifice my > integrity? > > Under these conditions our sense of isolation and alienation begins > to grow and we begin doing and saying things we shouldn't. I figured out some > time ago to be more guarded in my speech on public lists on the internet, but > just today I realized how badly I had > hurt someone in my private postings. Sometimes when they come at me with > their platitudes and I can't stand it anymore I throw something back at > them, some piece of information about the Faith which I know full well > they are not prepared to handle, but which will burst the balloon of all > the ready-made answers which they want to shove down my throat. More than > once I have responded to what I perceived as scholar-baitng with something > which was not only hurtful but no doubt only persuaded them of just how > arrogant we academics are! If they only knew the fragile egos we > defend.Still, I know that genuine humility resides in the willingness to be > vulnerable, in the knowledge that we are nothing of ourselves, so we have > nothing to protect. But the natural response is to keep covered those > areas where the wounds are the deepest." > > This doesn't precisely parellel Karen's experiences, for in her case it seemed > to involve mostly problems in her local community. But I expect that for her, > like me, there had come a time when the Faith no longer seemed to have any > terms for her existence. I'd been feeling that for nearly two decades before > Juan resigned, but when that happened I imagined my own worst fears had been > realized. > > So why did I change sides? Well, like Karen, I became increasingly aware of how > much the Faith meant to me, and awareness which began to grow as I took > seriously Baha'u'llah's admonition to read the Writings every morning and > evening. It was the only act of firmness in the Covenant I felt capable of at > the time. And as I began to do that, my desire for reconcilation began to grow. > But what I began to realize is that the people I was associating with did not > want reconciliation, they were locked into a battle with the administration and > what they wanted most was to win. And the hypocrisy of their actions became > increasingly apparent. They would complain of censorship and then tell me when > I was moderator of H-Bahai that I shouldn't allow somebody to post because they > were an "ultramontanist" and a "big Nixon supporter." A good example of that > kind of hypocrisy is the following discription of your own Zuhur list: > > "The list is dedicated to liberal, open and non-fundamentalist discussions of > the Babi/Baha'i movements and other related areas. The list is open to Baha'i > and non-Baha'is alike interested in the liberal stream of Baha'i thinking only > and as such fundamentalist Baha'i interpretations and attacks on the liberal > and also liberal academic tradition is not considered pertinent." > > So much for the liberal tradition of free speech! > > But to continue, I would be in the midst of defending one of the "dissenters" > when he would burst out with something so intemperate and paranoid sounding > I'd have to step back. When they tried to persuade me that the Faith had been > taken over by a secret cabal going back to Mason Remey and Horace Holley, I > *really* had to step back and ask myself just what had I gotten myself into? > Then I was sent a rough draft of the Panopticon article and saw it was filled > with distortions about matters where they author had to know better. > > Meanwhile, unfounded charges were being made saying things like the House had > ordered Abbas Amanat expelled from the Faith which I knew simply weren't true. > Or I was told that the NSA of Canada had sold off a important collection within > their archives to prevent it from falling into the hands of academics, > something which proved to be utterly false. The number of this kind of thing > began to grow. I would be sent all this documentation "proving" corruption or > injustices and I would go through it carefully and come to exactly the opposite > conclusion. > > And something else would happen as well. I would start have arguments with > people on Talisman on basic issues like the existence of revelation and began > to realize that the people I was supporting didn't really believe in it in any > meaningful way. At one point I posted a very emotional defense of revelation > vs. the deism that people on Talisman attempting to promote. Then Baha'is like > Terry Culhane began to write me who were disturbed by the actions of the > Institutions but still wanted some kind of faith and were beginning to > wonder if these guys believed in anything. It became increasingly apparent that > there were a lot of Baha'is out there watching me carefully trying to find ways > hang > on to their faith and still maintain their intellectual integrity.. At the > time part of me had a pretty strong death wish, figuring I just as well ought > to let the Institutions take me out sooner than later (I was still > persuaded that the more they knew what I was, the more they want to get rid > of me.) But it was becoming increasingly apparent that if I went down, I > wasn't going down alone and began to realize that for the sake of these Baha'is > I needed to search for solutions rather than add to the problems. So I began to > behave much less recklessly. > > Right around this time there was a very lurid thread going on on Talisman > discussing some prominet Baha'i's supposed sexual indiscretions. Then Juan came > bursting on to Talisman saying, "I've been backbitten and so have you!" It was > in reference to a talk Counselor Gharian had made in London critical of the > Talisman list. I was upset by Counselor Ghadirian's remark but deep inside me > there was voice saying, "What's wrong with this picture?" So when I posted > something critical of that talk I made the decision to cc it to Counselor > Ghadirian. I remember how my heart went to my throat when he called me that > night. It is very difficult to explain everything that went on between the two > of us, and how his saintliness and love eventually overcame my fears and > suspicions. I have never been one to be impressed by people's titles, not even > Hands of the Cause, but it was apparent to me that I was indeed dealing with a > saint here. (I might add that Terry Culhane had the same reaction to single > conversation with Counselor Ghadirian as I had.) > > Because of all this I stopped talking *about* the Institutions and began to > talk to them. And I could be (and often still am) pretty critical. My first > letter to the House of Justice had been full of criticisms of Counselor > Ghadirian's talks, for instance, not withstanding the rapport that had > developed between us. Counselor Ghadirian, far from expressing any resentment, > he phoned me after I sent it and thanked me saying that this was the > appropriate way to address the House. > > On other occasions Counselor Ghadirian would call for no apparent reason and > express his appreciation for some > presentation he had heard I'd given on Entry by Troops or something. Half > the time I couldn't figure out why he called all the way from Canada. But he > would end the conversation saying something like "please don't feel > alienated." And I'd hang up the phone and find myself in tears. > > There were a lot more elements to this as well, things too personal to talk > about on a public list such as this. Some of my correspondence with the House > is posted on my website. But there was at least one exchange which was too > personal to place there, where in a moment of crisis, the House of Justice had > sent me a letter assuring me of their love and expressing their confidence in > my motives and abilities. > > But to make a long story short, I began to realize that the House of Justice > was not out to destroy academic scholarship on the Baha'i Faith as I had > mistakenly believed all those years, and that they did not eat scholars for > breakfast > I also came to realize how much real damage was done to me by the people I had > been associating myself with, not because of their "liberal' views but because > they made me think the Institutions hated me.By the time I received the Feb. 8 > I had already parted company with this group emotionally, because by then I > knew that the fears and imaginings they filled my heart with simply weren't > true. > > So that's the answer to your question, Nima. But I really doubt that you wanted > to know it. > > warmest, Susan > > > > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 8:16 AM Subject: Re: Same threats, different year (was: Dr. Maneck's New Censorship Technique) What may be expected from such "bahai scholars" may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011122032256.08228.00001929@mb-md.aol.com... > >Well, what I'm wondering here is why Susan brought Juan up on two separate > >threads, where he wasn't even relevant and it was just gratuitous bashing. > > Excuse me, Karen but if you didn't notice Dermod, Nima and Fred were both > posting links to Juan's statements against me themselves and that is what I > was responding to. If you object to this kind of thing, why didn't you raise > that objection then? > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 8:26 AM Subject: Maneck's fundamentalist control of AOL message boards, etc. "Recently, Dr. Maneck, A.K.A. LDRS LFST Shahid on America Online's Baha'i Faith Bulletin Board posted the following." What may be expected from such bahai community leaders on AOL may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position" : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship1.htm Continuing AOL Censorship by bahais March 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/cAOL.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 8:49 AM Subject: bahai LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0111051240.4d5df95e@posting.google.com... > Dermod and Pat, > > You guys are both overlooking the fact that Fred requested to be > removed. Why would the NSA confirm something for which they were > given a written request. > > Fred asked - they did what he asked - end of story. > AGAIN, this allegation is an unmitiaged LIE, a twisting and distorting of what happended in order to fit the fanaticism and hatred that runs rife in fundamentalist bahai circles. For details regarding what I did request see below. I have NEVER requested to be removed from the bahai rolls nor denied my belief in Baha'u'llah. The tactic of denying my membership is the bahai faith by this fundamentalist is clearly calculated to discredit my criticism of censorship regularly imposed by the bahai institutions. I invite those interested in the truth to read my account below and to consider that the same person who is making such a slanderous claim is the one who wrote the vulgar attack on me available at https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain In 1996 my request to the circulation department for the American Bahai, repeated twice and perhaps a third time, read, "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." I had torn off the preprinted address change label regularly published on the back page of the American Bahai and mailed it into the address given for subscription changes. I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be removed from the mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, no threat, etc.... Dermod Ryder's speculation that willingness to receive the American Bahai has become compulsory should give pause.... Again, note well, I used the address on the back of the American Bahai given specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write the nsa, its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the simplest of requests: remove my name and address from your mailing list. Not a word or suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith, nor any criticism of it whatsoever, real nor implied. I conveyed my wishes to the proper address, as announced in the American Bahai itself. That I received a response back from an entirely different address speaks volumes, as they say. After six years, I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. I've scanned the letter so others might read the original. I am not about to accept the slander and backbiting of fanatics and fundamentalists nor allow them to provoke me into one action or another. I prefer the facts: Again, I declared my belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976 and notified the nsa, who sent me back the declaration card available on my homepage. I have never notified them otherwise. They, as distinguished from liars and sycophants online, have never notified me to the contrary. Scanned orignials at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm The other two letters were related to the Detroit local spiritual assembly and its junk mail. See my message below for other relevant details. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Despite the slander of many fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, I have been a member of the bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my main bahai page. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. The reason the uhj allows and encourages fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to backbite and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet, and elsewhere may be discovered in the four messages below: To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ72498.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/uhj12-10-99.htm Open Petition for Baha'i Reformation February 8, 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Reformation.htm My Request Not to Receive the American Bahai 1996 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 9:06 AM Subject: What Maneck, et al., are all about - "Obviously, there are thousands of Baha'is who do not share the current "Obviously, there are thousands of Baha'is who do not share the current uhj's fundamentalist mindset, and they can't put them all on trial, so most of you are probably safe enough. Their tactic appears to be to identify persons who are persistent posters and who therefore are becoming "prominent," with whom they disagree about their vision of the Baha'i faith, and then to target them in hopes of either silencing them or forcing them out of the religion. They probably also hope that a few such publicized cases will scare every other non-fundamentalist into silence, as well. If so, they haven't dealt with many Americans." Juan Cole, December 03, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/anonymous.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 10:19 AM Subject: Re: More chum (was: REPOST: Alleged pusallanimity of Baha'i administration) "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011124034517.04396.00002283@mb-fc.aol.com... >> > I think what likely happened is that Juan was given a garbled account of a > couple of these letters and then exaggerated it himself even further. And he > simply lied when he said he had seen the directive himself. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 10:20 AM Subject: Re: Same threats, different year (was: Dr. Maneck's New Censorship https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011122134816.08265.00001869@mb-md.aol.com... > > > >I don't think Juan explicitly acknowledged any boo-booes on his part. > > Dear Pat, > > He acknowledge that he had changed the text in question, but he insisted that > there was nothing wrong with doing that. A rather strange statement for a > historian to make in light of the following ethical standards which we are > enjoined to adhere to: > > """Scholars must be not only competent in research and analysis but also > cognizant of issues of professional conduct. Integrity is one of these > issues. It requires an awareness of one's own bias and a readiness to follow > sound method and analysis wherever they may lead. IT DEMANDS DISCLOSURE OF ALL > SIGNIFICANT QUALIFICATIONS OF ONES ARGUMENTS.Historians should carefully > document their findings and THEREAFTER BE PREPARED TO MAKE AVAILABLE TO OTHERS > THEIR SOURCES, EVIDENCE AND DATA [how often has Juan refused to do this?] > including the documentation they > develop through interviews. HISTORIAN MUST NOT MISREPRESENT EVIDENCE OR THE > SOURCES OF EVIDENCE, must be free of the offense of plagiarism, and > must not be indifferent to error or > efforts to ignore or conceal it." > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 10:21 AM Subject: Re: Same threats, different year (was: Dr. Maneck's New Censorship https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 10:35 AM Subject: Re: This is Bahai? "Michael McKenny" wrote: "They seek to discredit the people who say what cannot be denied." Incontrovertible... Ms. Maneck et al.... You delineated, again so well, that this is, indeed, what bahai has become, despite these great words of Abdu'l-Baha: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty there secrets of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the privateof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." --Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:9tlrhk$skp$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Greetings, Karen. > Many thanks for your comments. > You are quite right that the suppression of freedom of thought and > expression is a quite telling and alarming aspect of current Baha'i life. > What most upset me on first reading the Service of Women Paper was that it > had been censored. What most upset me when I first entered Baha'i cyberspace > was that there were Baha'i fundamentalists there seeking to suppress the > expression of any opinion, but their own. > One point I stressed from early on was that the Baha'i Covenant was a > two way street; it guaranteed the freedom of thought and expression for > Baha'is, who, whatever their personal opinions, would accept the > legitimacy of the authorized institutions. What is very remarkable about > those who had the understanding that Baha'i women should be on the UHJ was > that they only sought their legitimate right to express this opinion, and > all stated it would come about when the UHJ called for it. No one staged > a coup, or even passed around a special ballot. > Of course, what one does when one opposes the free expression of human > opinion is expose one's own insecurity concerning one's own position. By > censoring the Service of Women Paper, by exerting tremendous pressure on > those stating their views on the e-mail lists, by having people visited > by Counsellors, etc., those occupying seats on the UHJ revealed that the > points made in that Paper and by those exercising their Baha'i right to > speak their mind and heart are irrefutable. Those occupying those seats > had no way of overcoming the reason and spirituality they encountered. > They chose the policy of other despotic rulerships and sought to conceal > views, to censor, to oppress, to intimidate, to create suspicion and > division, to force those thinking the irrefutable thoughts to be silent > or to begone. > Ad hominems are invalid, but this was the policy, the only plank of > reasoning those individuals, offered this splendid opportunity to prove > Baha'is really do live the life of their principles, had and have. They > seek to discredit the people who say what cannot be denied. They assert > those currently on the UHJ are correct, because of who they are, and this > was carried to the invalid proposition that the hands of the future > members of the UHJ are bound according to the opinions of those now > occupying that body. The validity of propositions is independent of the > personality of individuals; all the contemporary members of the UHJ > demonstrate by moving against personalities, by pressuring or even > legislating the non-Baha'i status of people believing that spiritual > principles trump particular literal interpretations appearing to exempt > leaders from living according to spiritual principles is testify to their > powerlessness to stand in the light of what they oppose and the extent > they are willing to go to insist on their own understanding. > Again, I stress freedom of thought and expression includes the right > of literalist interpretations to be spoken; it even includes the right of > leadership to speak literal interpretations. What is forbidden is the > suppression of other understandings, carried to the extent in this case > to the completely false proposition that the particular literal > interpretation of the contemporary members of the UHJ prevents their > successors from feeling and reasoning in any other way. This view is > invalid. Parliament may not bind its successors, and the members of the > Universal House of justice are completely free at any time to legislate > according to their own understanding without hindrance from the views of > those who have sat in those seats previously. Considering the actual > situation today, all one can say about the valid reality of the freedom > of the future is, "Thank God!" > Thanks again for your comments and for the opportunity this allows > for me to restate these points. The time I took to do this may have set > back a little the completion of that Canadian archaeology project I'm > working on, but it was worth it. Please feel free to repost any of my > posts that in the ever flowing nature of cyberspace may seem called for > yet again. The same points seem to flow as waves to the shore and it is > only seldom now I look in here. Much I'm missing, but the archives have > likely already received responses by me and others so irrefutable that > exceptional ad hominems were all those sitting in UHJ seats had to answer > with. > May you always be well. > To the Future, > Michael > > "Karen Bacquet" (karenbacquet@hotmail.com) writes: > > -- > > "The essence of all that We have revealed for thee is Justice . . ." -- > > Baha'u'llah > > > > This is an excellent observation, Michael. I recently was reading Marcus > > Borg's latest book, and he points out that scriptural literalism actually > > requires a good deal of creative effort to maintain. If the idea that the > > Guardianship, as in Institution, is still in existence is not a very > > creative interpretation, I don't know what is. It is a "literal" approach > > inasmuch as it seems to be based upon nothing more than the Will and > > Testament's appointment of Shoghi Effendi, and his interpretations > > concerning the necessary role of the Guardianship, but it sort of boils down > > to "There's a Guardianship, because the Writings say there must be one". A > > corallary is "The UHJ doesn't intepret because the Writings say it can't". > > So anything that looks like an interpretation just is called an elucidation > > instead. That, in itself, is an interpretation. > > > > Yes. Many times I wonder about the context of Shoghi Effendi's letters -- > > who was he talking to, and what was the situation that cause him to respond > > the way he did? Was it advice bounded by certain conditions, or was he > > expounding on a general principle? I do know that his insistence on the > > importance of the Guardianship was, at least partially, due to challenges to > > his own position. Those that had the Guardian thought they should have the > > UHJ; now those that have the UHJ think they should have a Guardian. The > > grass is always greener, I guess. But when I look at the W&T, I see an > > entire, coherent system that was cut down before it ever had the chance to > > fully develop and work properly. > > > > > Yes. I think that the issue of women's service on the UHJ is an "unclear > > matter", and as such falls within the purview of the legislative power of > > that body. However, as I've said before, the fact that enrolled Baha'is > > cannot advocate this publicly without reprisals is something that concerns > > me far more. There's no future for any sort of change or reform if Baha'is > > do not have the freedom to promote their views. > > > > > Yes. They're the ones with the power -- it is inevitable that they > > interpret, and it is their choice how they do so. Literalism, as you point > > out, is just one of those choices. > > > > Love, Karen > > > > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 10:37 AM Subject: WARNING - *** psychological war zone *** - WARNING - WARNING - *** psychological war zone *** - WARNING - WARNING - *** psychological war zone *** - WARNING - WARNING - *** psychological war zone *** - WARNING - WARNING - *** psychological war zone *** - W Those new to talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai might want to consider that they have entered a psychological war zone, one in which bahai fundamentalists have been attempting for at least five years to portray many fellow bahais and non-bahais in exceedingly negative terms. A more than decade-long record of this psychological, spiritual battle may be quickly skimmed, or read to the degree of your interest, at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Baha'i The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "La6red9nec" wrote in message news:20011118181707.10967.00000513@mb-cn.aol.com... > >Subject: Baha'i > >From: "maria" koolilkittie@hotmail.com > >Date: 11/17/2001 6:50 AM Pacific Standard Time > >Message-id: <9t5tgs$etg$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> > > > >The Baha'i faith has become nothing more than another 'moonie' like > >money-making cult. Followers of its undoubtably saintly founder have ignored > >his tenet to be strictly vegetarian and the group is on a slippery slope > >downward. Unfortunatly Iran, like all Muslim countries who never miss an > >opportunity to do the stupid thing, has given these idiots credence and fame > >by persecuting them. > > > > Maria after the first sentence you sounded like a good sigheh material but you > really blow it with the continuation. Learn wehn to stop and you will live > happily ever after!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 2:12 PM Subject: The Genesis of the Baha'i Faith FYI https://www.isim.nl/newsletter/2/regional/1.html The Genesis of the Baha'i Faith in Middle Eastern Modernity by Juan Cole Middle Eastern religion is seldom mentioned in the same breath with modernism, at least in the West. However, the Baha'i faith, which originated in nineteenth-century Iran, poses key conundrums to our understanding of the relationship between modernity and religion in the global South. Modernity was conceived in binary oppositions, between superstition and reason, absolutism and liberty, nation and Other, civilized and barbarian, and male and female. Proponents of modernity, as Edward Said demonstrated in his masterful Orientalism,1 managed to range a number of such oppositions together, coding reason, liberty, nation, civilization and maleness as European, whereas both Europe's medieval ('immature') past and Europe's Oriental Others, especially Islam, were painted as possessing the opposite and inferior characteristics. European modernity tended to hide from itself its own darker traits, including chauvinist hatreds, industrialized warfare, racism, colonialism and male chauvinism, and the degree to which the modern form of these phenomena was inextricably intertwined with the entire modernist project. From a postmodern point of view, modernity has lacked a sense of ambiguity and irony, and suffers from limiting its typologies to mere binary oppositions, when in fact social phenomena come in three's, four's, and even higher ordinals, not just in two's. North Atlantic modernists have also privileged the European experience of modernity in ways that seem peculiar to anyone who knows something about world history. Anthony Giddens in The Consequences of Modernity (Stanford, 1990), argues that modernity is not a static matter of binary oppositions, but is rather dialectical. Movements against absolutism give rise not only to parliamentary regimes, but also to national security states that appear to many citizens to deprive them of liberties instead of bestowing them, thus generating oppositional grassroots movements campaigning for democracy (as opposed to elitist Liberalism) and for workers' rights. That is, he challenges modernists' insistence that the contenders in political battles can be neatly divided into 'reactionaries' and 'progressives'. Giddens gives the name 'utopian realist' to the movements, such as those of workers, women, peace groups and others, that challenge the industrial, militant nation-states of bourgeois modernity. Islam's encounter with nineteenth-century modernity produced not only reactionary, revivalist, millenarian, liberal and fundamentalist responses, as some have argued, but in the form of the Baha'i faith it produced a mixture of millenarianism, liberalism and utopian realism that later turned sharply toward a sort of fundamentalism. The latter turn has tended to obscure the original emphases of the religion's founder, which can only be recovered through reading his voluminous letters in their nineteenth-century political and cultural context. The Baha'i faith developed out of the esoteric, kabbalistic Shaykhi movement of Shicite Islam, founded by Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsa'i (1753-1826), and out of the apocalyptic and messianic Babi movement, founded by cAli Muhammad Shirazi, the 'Bab' or door to the divine, in 1844, which racked Iran with religious ferment and turmoil, leading to the Bab's execution in 1850 and a retaliatory attempt on the life of Nasiru'd-Din Shah by radical Babis in 1852, and thence to a nation-wide pogrom against the new religion.2 Out of this maelstrom emerged an entirely different sort of messianic movement, the Baha'i faith, founded in Baghdad in 1863 by Mirza Husayn cAli Nuri, Baha'u'llah (1817-1892). Baha'u'llah, a high notable born in Tehran whose father had been a provincial governor married into the royal family, had emerged after the Bab's execution as a prominent Babi leader, though his more radical younger half-brother, Mirza Yahya Subh-i Azal, was more widely recognized as the vicar of the Bab in the 1850s and early 1860s. Baha'u'llah was exiled first to Ottoman Baghdad (1853), then to Istanbul (1863), Edirne (1863-1868) and finally in 1868 to Akka on the coast of Ottoman Syria, where he lived until his death. In 1867 he had broken decisively with Azal, proclaiming himself the messianic successor of the Bab and founding a new religion, the Baha'i faith. Partly due to his exiles to the Ottoman Empire, which was more directly imbricated in European modernity than Qajar Iran, Baha'u'llah turned Babism from a millenarian protest movement into one that mixed modernist and utopian realist themes. He expressed approval of some aspects of modernity, whereby he critiqued the absolutist Ottoman and Qajar states, including a call for parliamentary democracy, some separation of religion and state, a guarantee of freedom of conscience and expression, greater rights for women, and an end to arbitrary decrees, which should be replaced by tribunals. At the same time, however, he critiqued nineteenth-century modernity itself, condemning chauvinist nationalism (whether religious, linguistic or ethnic in character), European colonialism, industrialized warfare paid for by high taxes on the poor, the anarchy of international relations based upon the absolute sovereignty of nation-states (which he wished to curb through international peace conferences), and what he thought of as over-developed civilization, by which he appears to have meant materialism, pollution and massively destructive weaponry. Baha'u'llah's mixture of rationalization (e.g. parliamentary institutions and due process), appeal to human rights, and yet his communitarian emphasis on the creation of a new, revealed missionary religion, prefigured some of the convergences between the old Right and Left that French sociologist Alain Touraine perceives as characteristic of the turn of the twentieth century. In a fascinating about-face, the later Baha'i faith's leaders turned increasingly to the Right, condemning multi-party democracy as factious and plutocratic, advocating theocracy, and curbing individual freedom of conscience and expression within the community. This right wing shell has preserved the utopian realist core of Baha'u'llah's own emphases, however, creating a unique sectarian community that has remained tiny in the literate world, in part because of its strict controls on discourse, but which has had some success missionizing in India and elsewhere in the global South. The Babi-Bahai movements underwent an odyssey from militancy in the 1840s to pacifist, liberal globalism under Baha'u'llah and thence in the twentieth century to two contending emphases: a liberal stream that maintains a universalist and tolerant outlook and a conservative one that dreams of theocratic domination and insistence on scriptural literalism. The movement thus defies any easy teleology of modernity, and in many ways parallels the major reformist intellectual currents of modern Iran's Shicite majority. Juan R. I. Cole is Professor of Middle Eastern and South Asian History at the University of Michigan, USA. He is author of Modernity and the Millennium: The Genesis of the Baha'i Faith in the Nineteenth Century Middle East. New York: Columbia University Press. Notes 1. New York: Vintage, 1978. 2. Abbas Amanat (1989), Resurrection and Renewal: The Making of the Babi Movement in Iran, 1844-1850. Cornell: Cornell University Press. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This Page: 2/Regional/1.html Last Updated: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 11:37 AM Subject: Re: Moving on..... Nima, Farewell. I for one will miss you. You've often been a voice of truth and sanity on talk.religion.bahai. No small accomplishment. Best wishes. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Freethought110" wrote in message news:9tpu2j$q4n$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > Clearly for me continuing to engage in Baha'i related issues is increasingly > becoming a total waste of time. BIGS will be BIGS. The ao will never mend > its ways, and besides it is the fate of *all* religious movements and their > adherents without exception to ultimately fall down into the abyss of > authoritarianism, intolerance, exclusivism, triumphalism, fanaticism and > terminal stupidity. The abject and manifest failure of the Baha'i religion > is testimony to the truth that all religious efforts are fundamentally rigid > and utopianic in scope and so therefore ultimately hubristic when confronted > with the hard fact realities of the world and the complexities of human > life, and thus doomed to failure regardless as to how human beings will > always strive to grasp at imaginary straws searching for that utopia. As > such neither founding a religion that offers an alternative paradigm to > previously failed religious endeavours, nor reforming that religion when its > motivating impulses are clearly sacrificed on the alters of power, money and > expediency when it becomes a runaway train, will truly provide the desired > outcome. Rather that failure, more than anything else, is an > incontrovertibly assured fact that history has proven (and will prove once > more) again and again and again. > > I have reached a stage in my life that I am ready to leave ALL connections > with the Baha'i religion and its dirty politics in the past and move on to > bigger and better things. A new business I am about to start, the future of > Iran without the mullahs, the fact that I'll be turning 30 in three weeks > and above all a relationship I would like to nurture even further are more > important things to me now than the misdeeds of the uhj/ao; that they're a > terminally pathetic bunch of religious lunatics; or that they think they're > infallible; or, especially, how far BIGS will continue to bury their heads > in quicksand despite the sore thumb that constantly sticks right in their > collective faces about the realities they refuse to face. In other words, > the Baha'i wars are no longer my problem, and I couldn't care less anymore > one way or the other. > > I will continue to post (occasionally) to Zuhur and talisman9 as well as > continue to moderate H-Bahai, not to mention keep in touch with all my close > friends. But the difference now is that my full energies will defintely be > expended elsewhere amd for different things. > > Adieu and farewell, and if anyone wants to contact me, you know the address. > > cheers > -- > Freethought110 > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 11:40 AM Subject: Re: More chum (was: REPOST: Alleged pusallanimity of Baha'i administration) Karen, I understand but will miss you. I've always respected your views and believe you've contributed a great deal on talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere. Perhaps, after a recuperation.... Best, -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Karen Bacquet" wrote in message news:u0008apmd5l2f6@corp.supernews.com... > > > -- > https://www.angelfire.com/ca3/bigquestions/Bacquet.html > Pat Kohli wrote in message > news:3BFFCFBA.F20DC5BA@ameritel.net... > > Allahu Abha! > > Dear Pat and everybody, > > I'm going to be cutting back on my Internet activities, including > unsubscribing from trb for a while. The last time I ignored the warning > signals of getting over-stressed on the Internet, it ended up being > disastrous. So, I'm outta here. But I'll be back. When will just depend on > how I feel. > > Love, Karen > > > > > Karen Bacquet wrote: > > > > > or 2) Juan is out of town on > > > > vacation and will answer the criticisms on his return,>> > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > > I haven't seen Juan in cyberspace for at least the last week. Indeed, > his > > > appearances have been rather sporadic for the last couple of months. I > can't > > > even remember the last time he was on usenet, which I gather is rather > > > low-priority for him. It seems that these days he is busy elsewhere. > > > > I seldom see him in person on usenet, more often he has taken to posting > by > > proxy. I am assuming that the articles from his keyboard find his way > here > > after posting on Talisman and after a Talsimanian gets his permission to > post > > them here. I think that if someone posts something which is controversial > and > > if they want to persuade anyone of the accuracy of their story, they > should > > stand by to answer reasonable questions. The request for the letter from > the US > > NSA directing American Baha'is not to say the prayer for America, was, > IMHO, a > > reasonable request given that Juan claimed to have seen it himself. > > > > At the time he made this charge, I gave him some credibility. Our feast > letters > > were delayed by the awful postal anthrax debacle, so I didn't know what > the > > letter said. When a letter was posted, it was plainly not the one which > Juan > > claimed to have seen and I grew suspicious. Nima tried to reinterpret the > > External Affairs letter to meet Juan's description, but it seemed obvious > to all > > but him that there was not a match. At some point I did get my feast > letters > > and there was nothing resembling Juan's description of a directive not to > say > > the prayer for America. Then I checked the BNC web site and found the > real > > letter on the September 11 attack. It was quite the opposite of the > > anti-American bias which Juan alleges. > > > > I felt betrayed. Juan's fake letter rang of the fear which touched our > country > > at that time. The real letter is inspirational and patriotic. Though > clearly > > hasty, and poorly referenced, the real letter transcends the fear which > swept > > our nation at that time. I was favorably touched by the real letter and I > am > > disappointed that someone would try to recast it as the dark, cowardly > thing > > that Juan described, particularly disappointed that this was done by > someone who > > claims academic objectivity in his studies of the Baha'i Faith, Juan > ole, - or > > so Nima's posting indicates. Juan's denunciation was not unbiased > academia, it > > was propaganda, at a time when our nation's communication infrastructure > was > > compromised. If he ever comes back to TRB, I'd like to discuss this with > him. > > In the mean time, anyone who wants to reference Juan as an objective > academic > > expert in the field will be asked how they can see him as some sort of > expert > > when he has been apparently passing off some story as a directive from the > US > > NSA, particularly at such a sensitive time. > > > > Here are some excerpts from the real letter, so you can see for yourself > that it > > is inspirational, patriotic, and transcending the fear: > > "As you know, the Bahá'í Scriptures proclaim that God has given the United > > States a spiritual mission to help reshape the world. ... The Bahá'í > Writings > > promise that this "signally blest" nation will never be defeated and will > > triumphantly fulfill its God-ordained mission. ... At this moment of > > unprecedented disaster, we call on all of the followers of Bahá'u'lláh in > the > > United States to come to the aid of your nation in the name of your > Faith." > > - NSA of the Baha'is of the United States, 12 September 2001 > > > > Blessings! > > - Pat > > kohli@ameritel.net > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:34 AM Subject: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience What all that amounts to in *practice* may be seen on The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: BIGSi, can you spare a dime?? Abdu'l-Baha understood what the BIGS are all about, Maneck et al: "We regard fanatacism and zealotry as redounding to our credit and honor, and not content with this, we denounce one another and plot each other's ruin, and whenever we wish to put on a show of wisdom and learning, of virtue and godliness, we set about mocking and reviling this one and that. "The ideas of such a one," we say, "are wide of the mark, and so-and-so's behavior leaves much to be desired. The religious observances of Zayd are few and far between, and Amr is not firm in his faith."...With words such as these they assualt the minds of the helpless masses and disturb the hearts of the already bewildered poor, who know nothing of the true state of affairs and the real basis for such talk and remain completely unaware of the fact that a thousand selfish purposes are concealed behind the supposedly religious eloquence of certain individuals. They imagine that speakers of this type are motivated by virtuous zeal, when the truth is that such individuals keep up a great hue and cry because they see their own personal ruin in the welfare of the masses, and believe that if the people's eyes are opened their own light will go out." Abdul-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, 56-57, 1990 edition. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AbdulB2.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9tu9ja$50t1d$1@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > "Randy Burns" wrote in message > news:V3cM7.2216$h56.435011@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net... > > Dermod's jealous 'cause he doesn't have one! > > > No way, Randy! Over here ALL organisations are accountable to the > Law - they are held accountable to abide by their own rules and the > rules of society as a whole. Consequently the New Mexico business > would have been heard in Court here and judged on its merits, not > dismissed on a technicality, which to my mind, gives religious > organisations carte blanche to behave as they want to. > > Of course we know that is the way the AO works! Make up the rules as > you go along and damn any bugger who objects! These fundies support > that because they are hoping to attain to high office or have put > their brains in stand-by mode. > > As ever, > > Dermod. > > > > > > -- > > > > Susan Maneck wrote in message > > news:20011125025301.27459.00002728@mb-fo.aol.com... > > > > > > Interesting that those who would promote themselves as champions > of > > freedom > > > refer to the First Amendment as a legal technicality. > > > > > Susan Maneck > > > Associate Professor of History > > > Jackson State University > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 5:28 PM Subject: Re: WARNING - *** psychological war zone *** - WARNING - WARNING - *** psychological war zone *** - WARNING - WARNING - *** psychological war zone *** - WARNING - WARNING - *** psychological war zone *** - WARNING - WARNING - *** psychological war zone *** Dermod, I've thought repeatedly of your paragraphs I've added to the Bahai Technique. Hope you don't mind. Let me know if you want me to delete them. Fred "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9tu9jb$50t1d$2@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" > wrote in message > news:9toeop$3rs3c$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > > Hi Fred, > > Thanks for the compliment! It's a great honour to have a page on your > site devoted to my musings at various times on this forum. > > I shall view this as an encouragement to come up with further > offerings worthy of inclusion! > > As ever, > > Dermod. > > > > Those new to talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai might > > want to consider that they have entered a psychological war zone, > > one in which bahai fundamentalists have been attempting for at > > least five years to portray many fellow bahais and non-bahais > > in exceedingly negative terms. > > > > A more than decade-long record of this psychological, spiritual > battle > > may be quickly skimmed, or read to the degree of your interest, at > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 7:28 AM Subject: "Abdu'l-Baha clearly advocated not only freedom of conscience but "Abdu'l-Baha clearly advocated not only freedom of conscience but also freedom of *speech* and a democratic society." Juan Cole, December 03, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Freedom2.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 7:34 AM Subject: Conference Call - Reiterated - Conference Call - Reiterated - Conference Call - Reiterated - Conference Call - Reiterated - No amount of lying by bahai fundamentalists that "we're going to change" will ever amount to anything, in my opinion. Actions, not words, would have to be their adorning. My recent call for a conference to address this issue, with all parties attending, including the ao, was serious and remains open. I now believe there are many people who would like to find a real and substantive way to solve these issues. I'm not sure that many of them are in what purports to be the bahai administration. The minimal deeds would have to include the ending of review and its stifling effects throughout the bahai community, along with the replacement of personnel who have been central to the problem. Nothing less, in my opinion, will create the confidence and trust requisite for the transformation that might eventually lead to significant conversion, so profoundly needed.... No perceptive observer can fail to realize that the status quo guarantees only continuing atrophy and decline. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: Dermod Ryder[SMTP:Grim_Reaper_Mk2@btinternet.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 11:43 AM To: Fred Glaysher Subject: Web site Fred, Messages as requested. as ever, Dermod "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011122033233.08228.00001930@mb-md.aol.com... > So why did I change sides? Well, like Karen, I became increasingly aware of how > much the Faith meant to me, and awareness which began to grow as I took > seriously Baha'u'llah's admonition to read the Writings every morning and > evening. It was the only act of firmness in the Covenant I felt capable of at > the time. And as I began to do that, my desire for reconcilation began to grow. > But what I began to realize is that the people I was associating with did not > want reconciliation, they were locked into a battle with the administration and > what they wanted most was to win. Here lieth the ultimate truth - here is the crux of fundamentalism. It is black and white, right or wrong failing to recognise that life is not that simple or clear-cut. Rather than perceiving a situation where there are differences to be resolved, the fundamentalist mindset sees these differences as a challenge to the revealed truth. But the revealed truth is not that clear - that individual interpretation is not merely possible but permitted is symptomatic of this assertion. Something less antagonistic is needed here - something that suggests that the causes of contention need to be resolved, tolerated and reconciled rather than seen as a means to escalate the contention into conflict. This is the process of reconciliation you refer to but if it is to work it requires compromise on all sides. The classic build-up to conflict sees both sides girding their loins and becoming more antagonistic to the other. Sooner or later this explodes into violence - one side attacks, the other retaliates and the spiral continues. Who started it is never clear yet unless BOTH are determined to stop, it will continue. At its simplest the current Bahai War is about authority and inclusion. The House demands its authority be absolute up to and including a rigid interpretation of and adherence to the COVENANT. Liberals dispute both the the wisdom of this (to the mission of winning converts) and the House's right to insist on it. They believe the Covenant is inclusive of wide and varying interpretation, they therefore have a right to belong to the community if they so wish and the House has no right to exclude them. At this point in time there is no indication that either side is prepared to compromise - the prospect is continuing internecine warfare which will flare up and down from time to time in varying degrees of intensity. That continuing conflict will sap the energy and vitality and the ability of the BF to proceed. Indeed the only loser in the conflict is the BF - for the liberals at no cost to themselves can continue the struggle indefinitely. The solution is obvious yet will not be applied! You changed sides in this conflict! You reconciled yourself with those who are antithetical to everything you once believed in! You sold your integrity and have paid a gruesome price for so doing and not mainly from those whose cause you once shared! Far from effecting reconciliation, apart from your own, your defection effectively hardened battlelines and attitudes - you, wittingly or not, escalated the conflict and brought a lasting opprobrium upon your own head. And what you joined is an organisation that is "Ruhi-ising" the entire community - the Catechism of the Bahai Faith for all to learn by heart and recite by rote. The Institutions don't hate you - they have nothing but contempt for you - for you hadn't the guts to plough your own furrow but submitted and went under the yoke. I don't need to tell you that fundamentalist revolutions never succeed in the long run - the onward march of liberalism has never been repulsed. But fundamentalism, because it suppresses human creativity, can do untold damage to its victims of whom you are one! The essence of the Bahai Revelation is that one does RIGHT, not because some authority orders you to do it but because it is the right thing to do. Bahaism is of the spirit and the heart and not the institution and its authority. That is why the Covenant ought to be a loose binding that it can inspire but never restrict the surge of creativity that is the human yearning. When it becomes a matter of authority it has failed and the world will disregard it as it advances way beyond the limited vision that is set in concrete in Haifa. The Bahai spirit - the real Bahai spirit - is in the many people who work with my autistic kid and all the other sick and disabled kids throughout the world. Not a one of them is Bahai - not a one would believe that a better world will result from the machinations of assemblies or Haifan folks fulminating about E-mails. I spent twenty years of guilt wondering if I did right to leave the Bahai Faith for, seemingly, I was the only one who saw its wasted purpose and potential for corruption. When I came to the Internet, especially when Alison was canned before mine own eyes, I knew I was right! To have belonged to this apparat would have sapped every vestige of self respect and deeply held belief that I ever had - I would have had to betray myself to belong to it. I have seen Bahais support corruption in the Assembly when every sinew of their being cried out against it - for the sake of unity and the upholding of authority in the institutions. But that's why I know what you're going through! And at the end of the day, that's why I feel sorry for you! This current Bahai Faith will fail - but the spirit of the Revelation is alive, well and prospering throughout the world. It will improve the lot of mankind in due course and at that time the rump of Haifans will have put the "For Sale" sign up on those grandiose terraces. Who knows but that Fred will negotiate the sale for a reasonable commission! Dermod. - "The Meek shall inherit The Earth - if that's alright with the rest of you!" "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011125023334.27459.00002727@mb-fo.aol.com... > >The > >Bahai spirit - the real Bahai spirit - is in the many people who work > >with my autistic kid and all the other sick and disabled kids > >throughout the world. Not a one of them is Bahai - > > You think only non-Baha'is care for autistic kids? Did I say that? I don't think so! >I cared for one for over three years. So now you know a little of what I go through each day. Bravo! Is that all you could find to contend with? Splendid! ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 7:03 AM Subject: "Shunning is the marker of a cult . . . note that these "Shunning is the marker of a cult . . . note that these are all relatively small cults and none of them will ever really amount to anything in mainstream society." "I think shunning is a human rights abuse. It may be legal (in non-tort situations), but then, lots of human rights abuses are legal. I don't see the difference between the Mafia organizing a conspiracy to have someone's restaurant boycotted unless he pays protection money, and a religious organization threatening to prevent someone from seeing his coreligionist relatives at reunions unless he is blindly obedient to them. Both are forms of coercion that invade privacy and detract from the autonomy and dignity of the individual." Professor Juan Cole, February 12, 1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole54.htm I myself see no difference between the malice and deceit that actuated the WTC terrorists and the endemic dishonesty of bahai ao fundamentalists.... The underlying dynamics are the same. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 7:05 AM Subject: "That includes blowing the whistle on coercion, "That includes blowing the whistle on coercion, manipulation and abuse by Baha'i administrators of innocent adherents. I plead for all right thinking and compassionate persons to join me in trying to reform the Baha'i administration by critiquing it. It is out of kilter. Its members know it is out of kilter. It needs to be righted. Kowtowing only keeps it out of kilter." Professor Juan Cole, October 12, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole19.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: Glaysh112001[SMTP:glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:27 PM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com; TOSGen1@aol.com; FG@home.com Subject: Re: Violence as an instrument > >Terrorist cells around >>the world are waiting for the green light of jihad. > >I believe the 'green light' was given on Sept. 11. > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience ---------- From: Glaysh112001[SMTP:glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:46 PM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com; FG@home.com Subject: Re: Former Vice President speaks out >>"My heart goes out to the Baha'is of Iran. They have suffered >>more at the hands of their countrymen than that cult in Waco." >> >>--Dan Quayle > >Rule, > >Did Quayle really say that? > >warmest, Susan > > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience ---------- From: Glaysh112001[SMTP:glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:48 PM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com; FG@home.com Subject: Re: Former Vice President speaks out >His wife is a Christian Reconstructionalist. I'd be very careful. >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Or please explain for me and other bahais on the bahai message boards why she is permitted to post her fundamentalist URL while others are not. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience ---------- From: Glaysh112001[SMTP:glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:52 PM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com; FG@home.com Subject: Re: Cloning Around >and as such should be investigated and studied by scientists. (31 December >1937, to an individual) > > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Or please explain for me and other bahais on the bahai message boards why she is permitted to post her fundamentalist URL while others are not. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience ---------- From: Glaysh112001[SMTP:glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 1:01 PM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com; FG@home.com Subject: Re: Are you going to allow slander? >Subject: Re: Are you going to allow slander? >Date: 9/6/2001 11:18 PM Eastern Standard Time >From: WScott1995 >Message-id: <20010907001831.20750.00000610@mb-fo.aol.com> > > >Shahid, > >I don't need a document. Anyone who spends as much time as Fred does trying >to make the Baha'i Faith and its members look bad can't be a Baha'i. It's >really very simple, isn't it? > >Love and peace, Wendy ~~~{~{@ >R >"There's only one race. The human race. You're either in or you're out." >Lou Mattoni (Scott Bakula), Mean Streak > The community leader, Shahid, Ms. Maneck, is selectively permitting slander on the bahai message boards. Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 1:14 PM Subject: Maneck on AOL - Shahid, "community leader" Further examples of Ms. Maneck's assiduous adherence to exemplary scholar practice and fairness on AOL: >and as such should be investigated and studied by scientists. (31 December >1937, to an individual) > > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Or please explain for me and other bahais on the bahai message boards why she is permitted to post her fundamentalist URL while others are not. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >>"My heart goes out to the Baha'is of Iran. They have suffered >>more at the hands of their countrymen than that cult in Waco." >> >>--Dan Quayle > >Rule, > >Did Quayle really say that? > >warmest, Susan > > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >His wife is a Christian Reconstructionalist. I'd be very careful. >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Or please explain for me and other bahais on the bahai message boards why she is permitted to post her fundamentalist URL while others are not. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > >Terrorist cells around >>the world are waiting for the green light of jihad. > >I believe the 'green light' was given on Sept. 11. > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 1:34 PM Subject: Re: Conference Call - Reiterated - Conference Call - Reiterated - Conference Call - Reiterated - Conference Call - Reiterated - "Milissa" wrote in message news:df0d6959.0111280821.63eabb5f@posting.google.com... Until I > could feel really secure that this conference could take place in > absolute freedom with no possibility of AO backlash, I don't think I > or lots of other people would attend. If the uhj was serious about a real discussion taking place, all it would have to do to convince most people is permanently end of "review" prior to the conference. I believe then people of all persuasions would enter into it with a new spirit of reconciliation and hope for groping together to establish a new path conversant with Abdu'l-Baha's wise consul: These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of creation, and manifestation of the hidden verities of the contingent world. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AbdulB2.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: Glaysh112001@aol.com[SMTP:Glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 8:36 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Please remove posts. <> AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... This volunteer leader regularly abuses her position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom she and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views he opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: Glaysh112001@aol.com[SMTP:Glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 8:37 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Are you going to suppress my posts re talk.religion.bahai? <> AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... This volunteer leader regularly abuses her position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom she and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views he opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: Glaysh112001@aol.com[SMTP:Glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 8:40 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: LDRSLFSTJerry@aol.com; FG@home.com Subject: Re: Board Posting at Baha'i This volunteer leader regularly abuses her position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom she and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views she opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: Glaysh112001@aol.com[SMTP:Glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 8:41 AM To: FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Please remove posts. <> phone # ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 8:57 AM Subject: bahai - Open Letter to AOL TOSGeneral Re: Susan Maneck, "Shahid" This volunteer leader regularly abuses her position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom she and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views she opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: Glaysh112001[SMTP:glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 9:16 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com; FG@home.com Subject: Re: Are you going to suppress "irregular tax breaks"? TOSGeneral: Please find below yet another example of Ms. Maneck, Shahid, the bahai message boards community leader, posting her own URL while TOSing anyone who posts URLs to more liberal bahai sites. This volunteer leader regularly abuses her position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom she and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views she opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >Subject: Re: Are you going to suppress "irregular tax breaks"? >Date: 9/9/2001 9:03 PM Eastern Standard Time >From: Smaneck >Message-id: <20010909220324.18255.00001516@mb-md.aol.com> > > >>The apparent intention is indeed to suppress the Israeli newspaper report of >>the uhj receiving "irregular tax breaks." >> > >What those 'irregular tax breaks' are all about is the fact that Baha'is get >a rebate of value added taxes as a religious organization. >Big deal! I guess there are some members of the religious right who probably >object to anyone but Orthodox Jews getting those. But if Fred can make it >look like a case of corruption, you can be sure he will. >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience ---------- From: Glaysh112001@aol.com[SMTP:Glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 9:26 AM To: BenKucharski@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: Bahai message boards, URL posted by community leader Ben, Nice talking with you and thank you for your help. Please find the message I mentioned to you at the end, along several excerpts from messages that appear all over the bahai message boards. As I mentioned, I and others believe this volunteer leader regularly abuses her position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom she and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views she opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ Subject: Re: Are you going to suppress "irregular tax breaks"? Date: 9/9/2001 9:03 PM Eastern Standard Time From: Smaneck Message-id: <20010909220324.18255.00001516@mb-md.aol.com> >The apparent intention is indeed to suppress the Israeli newspaper report of >the uhj receiving "irregular tax breaks." > What those 'irregular tax breaks' are all about is the fact that Baha'is get a rebate of value added taxes as a religious organization. Big deal! I guess there are some members of the religious right who probably object to anyone but Orthodox Jews getting those. But if Fred can make it look like a case of corruption, you can be sure he will. warmest, Susan https://www.susanmaneck.com -------------------- Further examples of Shahid or Ms. Maneck's unfairness on AOL scattered all over the bahai message boards: >and as such should be investigated and studied by scientists. (31 December >1937, to an individual) > > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Or please explain for me and other bahais on the bahai message boards why she is permitted to post her fundamentalist URL while others are not. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >>"My heart goes out to the Baha'is of Iran. They have suffered >>more at the hands of their countrymen than that cult in Waco." >> >>--Dan Quayle > >Rule, > >Did Quayle really say that? > >warmest, Susan > > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >His wife is a Christian Reconstructionalist. I'd be very careful. >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Or please explain for me and other bahais on the bahai message boards why she is permitted to post her fundamentalist URL while others are not. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > >Terrorist cells around >>the world are waiting for the green light of jihad. > >I believe the 'green light' was given on Sept. 11. > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience ---------- From: Glaysh112001[SMTP:glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 10:22 AM To: benkucharski@aol.com; FG@hotmail.com; TOSGeneral@aol.com Subject: Re: URLs >The question has arisen as to the use of URLs. It is perfectly okay to post a >URL to a website on this board so long as the material on that website is in >keeping with the Board purpose, along with TOS and community standards. If >not, such a post may be removed. >LDRS LFST Shahid >AOL Lifestyles > And as a bahai fundamentalist you define and decide what is in keeping with the purpose of the board.... That's the problem in my opinion and that of many other people now for years..... Under such a specious interpretation of AOL TOS rules and the bahai writings, you may spam YOUR URL all over these bahai message boards? Is Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, a real university unlike the one you tutor at, going to have his website suppressed while yours is allowed? AOL TOSGeneral and others should note Prof. Cole has widely published on bahai censorship on and off the Internet, including a book with Columbia University Press. Further examples of Ms. Maneck's unfairness on AOL, with only her fundamentalist website allowed: >and as such should be investigated and studied by scientists. (31 December >1937, to an individual) > > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Or please explain for me and other bahais on the bahai message boards why she is permitted to post her fundamentalist URL while others are not. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >>"My heart goes out to the Baha'is of Iran. They have suffered >>more at the hands of their countrymen than that cult in Waco." >> >>--Dan Quayle > >Rule, > >Did Quayle really say that? > >warmest, Susan > > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >His wife is a Christian Reconstructionalist. I'd be very careful. >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Or please explain for me and other bahais on the bahai message boards why she is permitted to post her fundamentalist URL while others are not. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > >Terrorist cells around >>the world are waiting for the green light of jihad. > >I believe the 'green light' was given on Sept. 11. > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Community Leader concealing evidence of her abusing TOS rules Date: 11/30/2001 6:38 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011130073827.09100.00000004@mb-mv.aol.com> Shahid, Ms. Maneck, is removing messages of hers in which she spams her URL all over AOL bahai messages boards while suppressing and TOSing fellow bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist views. I ask the TOSGeneral to please ask her to desist or replace her who someone who can be a fair and impartial community leader. Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Open Letter to TOSGeneral Date: 11/30/2001 7:44 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011130084420.09100.00000016@mb-mv.aol.com> This volunteer leader regularly abuses her position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom she and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views she opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Are you going to suppress "irregular tax breaks"? Date: 11/30/2001 8:16 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011130091605.09100.00000022@mb-mv.aol.com> TOSGeneral: Please find below yet another example of Ms. Maneck, Shahid, the bahai message boards community leader, posting her own URL while TOSing anyone who posts URLs to more liberal bahai sites. This volunteer leader regularly abuses her position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom she and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views she opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >Subject: Re: Are you going to suppress "irregular tax breaks"? >Date: 9/9/2001 9:03 PM Eastern Standard Time >From: Smaneck >Message-id: <20010909220324.18255.00001516@mb-md.aol.com> > > >>The apparent intention is indeed to suppress the Israeli newspaper report of >>the uhj receiving "irregular tax breaks." >> > >What those 'irregular tax breaks' are all about is the fact that Baha'is get >a rebate of value added taxes as a religious organization. >Big deal! I guess there are some members of the religious right who probably >object to anyone but Orthodox Jews getting those. But if Fred can make it >look like a case of corruption, you can be sure he will. >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience ---------- From: Glaysh112001@aol.com[SMTP:Glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 11:12 AM To: BenKucharski@aol.com; TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Prof. Juan Cole regarding Susan Maneck, Bahai community leader Ben, I'd appreciate it if you'd forward this message to the AOL person you referred to. Prof. Cole's remarks are entirely in line with her behavior on AOL. Please find below excerpts from a message by Professor Juan Cole, University of Michigan, Department of History: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole2001.htm Numerous other messages by Cole on Ms. Maneck and bahai fundamentalism available at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole.htm Cole's book Modernity and the Millennium may be found at Columbia University Press and documents the fundamentalism that has taken over the bahai faith during the few decades. Review at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/reviews-cole.htm > >> >>> cheers JuanFrom: "Juan Cole" >>> Subject: Re: common ground >>> Date: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:20 AM >>> >>> I do not have the time or the inclination to spend a lot of time on >>> usenet right now, but since I have been slandered (and not for the >>> first time) by Susan Stiles Maneck in her recent posting, I am >>> >> > > > >> >> >>> Let's talk a little bit about hypocrisy. From about August of 1997, >>> when Maneck started secretly working for "counselor" Ghadirian, she >>> began sending him regular spy reports of the confidential deliberations >>> of its academic editors. She began attempting to disrupt the list >>> and "muddy the waters" in accordance with her instructions. We have a >>> rule that subscribers should have a master's degree or more in the >>> humanities or social sciences, to ensure an academic tone to >>> discussions. She suddenly announced that she was going to start >>> enrolling persons without those credentials. One of the persons she >>> proposed to enroll in this maverick way was a lawyer who is also an >>> Auxiliary Board Member for Protection, and who is no academic. I said >>> no. I said that, moreover, the person had kooky ideas about Nixon >>> having been innocent & etc. I mentioned his thinking Dick Nixon was >>> the innocent target of a smear campaign (!!!) as yet another piece of >>> evidence that this person was not a bona fide academic; but lack of >>> >> > > > >> >> >>> Maneck's announcement that she would ignore the rules and do as she >>> pleased; her frequent rejection of posts from Steve Scholl and other >>> liberals on purely ideological grounds; her vicious insults directed at >>> a prospective liberal moderator with the intent of scaring him away >>> from helping the list; her constant spy reports to Ghadirian; her >>> expression of delight that a subscriber had signed off that she viewed >>> as a 'covenant breaker' because she intended to mount a campaign on the >>> list to firm the academics up in the covenant; were all capped by a >>> demand that I resign as editor. Ultimately she voluntarily resigned >>> from her editorship in disgrace because she inadvertently supplied >>> evidence, in the course of her persecution of me, that she was spying >>> on the list for Ghadirian. She later publicly accused me on this very >>> list of having fired her! While I would have if I could have, that was >>> for the Editorial Board, and she did not give even them the >>> opportunity.The fact is that she was misusing her position on an academic >>> list to >>> undermine its independence in favor of the imposition of some wacky >>> >> > > > >> >> >>> In other words, we had to be basically fundamentalists or neo- >>> Calvinists or something, or else Maneck would gleefully join in the >>> auto-da-fe against anything we said. Her idea of "Revelation" isn't >>> dogma that all Baha'is have to accept, and her problems with deism are >>> >> > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 11:41 AM Subject: Re: NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal: talk.religion.bahai RE: Subject: NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal: talk.religion.bahai From: Joie Rankin - Usenet Administrator admin@avypbud.org.ph Date: 11/21/2001 1:46 PM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: <5Ued7.4120$vW7.1268371@news.netcologne.de> Newsgroup talk.religion.bahai slated for REMOVAL on 21 Nov 2001 18:46:28 GMT. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Hello my name is Joie Rankin, and I am writing to alert the regular readers of talk.religion.bahai that it will be removed from Usenet on 21 Nov 2001 18:46:28 GMT. This action will be taken by all news servers, so clients are advised to update their readers accordingly. Thank you for your kind attention, Joie Rankin -- Dear Joie Rankin, As one of the proponents for the Usenet voting that created talk.religion.bahai, I am strongly opposed to any attempt to remove talk.religion.bahai from Usenet. The Charter, RESULTS, and other details of its formation may be found at the link below: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/trbmenu.htm I would like to know if this message is bogus or there is truly an attempt, doubtless by fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, to eliminate one of the few forums available for free speech and discussion about the Bahai Faith. Let me state that your message, as far as I can determine, does not appear on Google nor the two servers that I regularly use to access talk.religion.bahai. I am confident that if a open and free discussion were to take place on news.groups and the other newsgroups involved in its creation that it would receive overwhelming support as a newsgroup that has contributed signicantly to Usenet and the upholding of its Charter. Please respond ASAP. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher FG@hotmail.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 11:44 AM To: admin@avypbud.org.ph Subject: Re: NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal: talk.religion.bahai Subject: NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal: talk.religion.bahai From: Joie Rankin - Usenet Administrator admin@avypbud.org.ph Date: 11/21/2001 1:46 PM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: <5Ued7.4120$vW7.1268371@news.netcologne.de> Newsgroup talk.religion.bahai slated for REMOVAL on 21 Nov 2001 18:46:28 GMT. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Hello my name is Joie Rankin, and I am writing to alert the regular readers of talk.religion.bahai that it will be removed from Usenet on 21 Nov 2001 18:46:28 GMT. This action will be taken by all news servers, so clients are advised to update their readers accordingly. Thank you for your kind attention, Joie Rankin -- Dear Joie Rankin, As one of the proponents for the Usenet voting that created talk.religion.bahai, I am strongly opposed to any attempt to remove talk.religion.bahai from Usenet. The details of its formation may be found at the link below: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/trbmenu.htm I would like to know if this message is bogus or there is truly a conspiracy, doubtless by fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, to elimanate one of the few forums available for free speech and discussion about the Bahai Faith. Frederick Glaysher FG@hotmail.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 11:45 AM To: admin@avypbud.org.ph Subject: Re: NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal: talk.religion.bahai RE: Subject: NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal: talk.religion.bahai From: Joie Rankin - Usenet Administrator admin@avypbud.org.ph Date: 11/21/2001 1:46 PM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: <5Ued7.4120$vW7.1268371@news.netcologne.de> Newsgroup talk.religion.bahai slated for REMOVAL on 21 Nov 2001 18:46:28 GMT. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Hello my name is Joie Rankin, and I am writing to alert the regular readers of talk.religion.bahai that it will be removed from Usenet on 21 Nov 2001 18:46:28 GMT. This action will be taken by all news servers, so clients are advised to update their readers accordingly. Thank you for your kind attention, Joie Rankin -- Dear Joie Rankin, As one of the proponents for the Usenet voting that created talk.religion.bahai, I am strongly opposed to any attempt to remove talk.religion.bahai from Usenet. The Charter, RESULTS, and other details of its formation may be found at the link below: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/trbmenu.htm I would like to know if this message is bogus or there is truly an attempt, doubtless by fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, to eliminate one of the few forums available for free speech and discussion about the Bahai Faith. Let me state that your message, as far as I can determine, does not appear on Google nor the two servers that I regularly use to access talk.religion.bahai. I am confident that if a open and free discussion were to take place on news.groups and the other newsgroups involved in its creation that it would receive overwhelming support as a newsgroup that has contributed signicantly to Usenet and the upholding of its Charter. Please respond ASAP. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher FG@hotmail.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 11:54 AM Subject: RE: Subject: NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal: talk.religion.bahai Subject: NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal: talk.religion.bahai From: Joie Rankin - Usenet Administrator admin@avypbud.org.ph Date: 11/21/2001 1:46 PM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: <5Ued7.4120$vW7.1268371@news.netcologne.de> Newsgroup talk.religion.bahai slated for REMOVAL on 21 Nov 2001 18:46:28 GMT. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Hello my name is Joie Rankin, and I am writing to alert the regular readers of talk.religion.bahai that it will be removed from Usenet on 21 Nov 2001 18:46:28 GMT. This action will be taken by all news servers, so clients are advised to update their readers accordingly. Thank you for your kind attention, Joie Rankin -- Dear Joie Rankin, As one of the proponents for the Usenet voting that created talk.religion.bahai, I am strongly opposed to any attempt to remove talk.religion.bahai from Usenet. The Charter, RESULTS, and other details of its formation may be found at the link below: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/trbmenu.htm I would like to know if this message is bogus or there is truly an attempt, doubtless by fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, to eliminate one of the few forums available for free speech and discussion about the Bahai Faith. Let me state that your message, as far as I can determine, does not appear on Google nor the two servers that I regularly use to access talk.religion.bahai. I am confident that if a open and free discussion were to take place on news.groups and the other newsgroups involved in its creation that it would receive overwhelming support as a newsgroup that has contributed signicantly to Usenet and the upholding of its Charter. Please respond ASAP. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher FG@hotmail.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 1:44 PM Subject: Re: NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal: talk.religion.bahai Thanks. I appreciate knowing it was bogus. I thought so but wasn't sure. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Graham Drabble" wrote in message news:Xns916AAE3FE446Fgrahamdrabblelineone@ID-77355.user.dfncis.de... > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" > wrote in > news:9ub19c$7dhqu$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de: > > > I would like to know if this message is bogus or there is truly > > an attempt, doubtless by fundamentalists among my fellow > > bahais, to eliminate one of the few forums available for free > > speech and discussion about the Bahai Faith. > > It was bogus. Nearly all groups got one. I beleive that followups were > set to nanae as part of a hipcrime attack against the group. It can be > safely ignored. > > Ng line trimmed f/ups set. > -- > Graham Drabble > If you're interested in what goes on in other groups or want to find > an interesting group to read then check news.groups.reviews for what > others have to say or contribute a review for others to read. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 1:45 PM Subject: Re: "Shunning is the marker of a cult "Shunning is the marker of a cult . . . note that these are all relatively small cults and none of them will ever really amount to anything in mainstream society." "I think shunning is a human rights abuse. It may be legal (in non-tort situations), but then, lots of human rights abuses are legal. I don't see the difference between the Mafia organizing a conspiracy to have someone's restaurant boycotted unless he pays protection money, and a religious organization threatening to prevent someone from seeing his coreligionist relatives at reunions unless he is blindly obedient to them. Both are forms of coercion that invade privacy and detract from the autonomy and dignity of the individual." Professor Juan Cole, February 12, 1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole54.htm I myself see no difference between the malice and deceit that actuated the WTC terrorists and the endemic dishonesty of bahai ao fundamentalists.... The underlying dynamics are the same. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:04 PM Subject: bahai - BeliefNet.com - Baha'i Faith Challenge & Critique. Some may be interested in looking in on BeliefNet.com https://www.beliefnet.com discussion boards, especially the one titled Baha'i Faith Challenge & Critique. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:05 PM Subject: "These are the people who sent their man to my own home to interrogate "These are the people who sent their man to my own home to interrogate me and then had me (a well known professor of Middle East Studies at a major university!) threatened with being shunned unless I fell silent! If that isnt' the coercion of conscience then I don't know what is!" Professor Juan Cole, January 31, 1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole72.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 10:20 AM Subject: Re: Do Baha'is support the current "war"? "slaveswagen" wrote in message news:41ad5aff.0112020439.51260591@posting.google.com... > Is there an official stance on the current American war on terrorism? > What do individual Baha'is think? I used to think that the Baha'i > faith was generally anti-war, then it was explained to me by a 30 year > Baha'i that the faith sees humanity as one entity and anything > (anyone?) that disrupts this entity is considered a virus and must be > erraticated. I assume terrorists fit into this category of virus. I > haven't exactly found the writings that support this point of view and > any quotes on this subject would be appreciated. Addressing the leaders of the US Republic, Baha'u'llah wrote, recalling from memory, "Crush the oppressors who flourish with the rod of the commandments of your Lord." Unlike the fundamentalists who have overtaken the bahai faith during the last decade, Baha'u'llah understood military Force is essential to the establishment and maintenance of peace. To my mind, His same advice now applies to the "universal" house of "justice" which has so clearly become an "oppressor" of His followers, much like the Islamic mullahs and leaders whose tyrannical rule resulted in so many hardships and much suffering for Baha'u'llah and his earlier followers.... One of the key rods or "commandments of your Lord" enunciated by the recognized Interpreter of His Writings, Abdu'l-Baha, is "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of creation, and manifestation of the hidden verities of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants. So in the world of existence two persons unanimous in all grades [of thought] and all beliefs cannot be found." --Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. Ms. Maneck, and other fundamentalists on talk.religion.bahai, routinely ignore and dismiss the pervasive respect both Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha had for democracy and free speech and their counsel to protect and defend such verities, following the uhj's continuing curtailment of His Teachings. A very long record of the uhj's tyranny may be found and perused to your degree of interest at the website below. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: Glaysh112001@aol.com[SMTP:Glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 10:23 AM To: BenKucharski@aol.com Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Fwd: Board Posting at Keyword: Baha'i <> Subj: Board Posting at Keyword: Baha'i Date: 12/1/2001 4:52:13 PM Eastern Standard Time From: LDRS LFST Shahid To: Glaysh112001 CC: LDRS LFST Mgr, LDRS LFST Jerry Dear Member: Regarding your messages posted at: Baha'i Message Boards>Question to the Community Leader. To avoid further disruption to the message board, your posts have been removed. Please review Keyword: Message Board Product Guidelines and Keyword: Spirituality Message Board Standards for more information on what is appropriate in our community. Depending on the severity of the disruption, a report may have been submitted to AOL's Community Action Team for further review. Thanks for taking the time to read this letter. Please note, I cannot respond to replies. Please address any questions or comments to LDRS LFST Mgr. Regards, LDRS LFST Shahid Volunteer Message Board Host AOL Lifestyles Subject: Re: URLs Date: 12/1/2001 9:22 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011201102255.14937.00000202@mb-fr.aol.com> >The question has arisen as to the use of URLs. It is perfectly okay to post a >URL to a website on this board so long as the material on that website is in >keeping with the Board purpose, along with TOS and community standards. If >not, such a post may be removed. >LDRS LFST Shahid >AOL Lifestyles > And as a bahai fundamentalist you define and decide what is in keeping with the purpose of the board.... That's the problem in my opinion and that of many other people now for years..... Under such a specious interpretation of AOL TOS rules and the bahai writings, you may spam YOUR URL all over these bahai message boards? Is Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, a real university unlike the one you tutor at, going to have his website suppressed while yours is allowed? AOL TOSGeneral and others should note Prof. Cole has widely published on bahai censorship on and off the Internet, including a book with Columbia University Press. Further examples of Ms. Maneck's unfairness on AOL, with only her fundamentalist website allowed: >and as such should be investigated and studied by scientists. (31 December >1937, to an individual) > > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Or please explain for me and other bahais on the bahai message boards why she is permitted to post her fundamentalist URL while others are not. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >>"My heart goes out to the Baha'is of Iran. They have suffered >>more at the hands of their countrymen than that cult in Waco." >> >>--Dan Quayle > >Rule, > >Did Quayle really say that? > >warmest, Susan > > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >His wife is a Christian Reconstructionalist. I'd be very careful. >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Or please explain for me and other bahais on the bahai message boards why she is permitted to post her fundamentalist URL while others are not. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > >Terrorist cells around >>the world are waiting for the green light of jihad. > >I believe the 'green light' was given on Sept. 11. > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Community Leader concealing evidence of her abusing TOS rules Date: 11/30/2001 6:38 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011130073827.09100.00000004@mb-mv.aol.com> Shahid, Ms. Maneck, is removing messages of hers in which she spams her URL all over AOL bahai messages boards while suppressing and TOSing fellow bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist views. I ask the TOSGeneral to please ask her to desist or replace her who someone who can be a fair and impartial community leader. Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Open Letter to TOSGeneral Date: 11/30/2001 7:44 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011130084420.09100.00000016@mb-mv.aol.com> This volunteer leader regularly abuses her position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom she and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views she opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Are you going to suppress "irregular tax breaks"? Date: 11/30/2001 8:16 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011130091605.09100.00000022@mb-mv.aol.com> TOSGeneral: Please find below yet another example of Ms. Maneck, Shahid, the bahai message boards community leader, posting her own URL while TOSing anyone who posts URLs to more liberal bahai sites. This volunteer leader regularly abuses her position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom she and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views she opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >Subject: Re: Are you going to suppress "irregular tax breaks"? >Date: 9/9/2001 9:03 PM Eastern Standard Time >From: Smaneck >Message-id: <20010909220324.18255.00001516@mb-md.aol.com> > > >>The apparent intention is indeed to suppress the Israeli newspaper report of >>the uhj receiving "irregular tax breaks." >> > >What those 'irregular tax breaks' are all about is the fact that Baha'is get >a rebate of value added taxes as a religious organization. >Big deal! I guess there are some members of the religious right who probably >object to anyone but Orthodox Jews getting those. But if Fred can make it >look like a case of corruption, you can be sure he will. >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Disagreements with TOS and/or community guidelines Date: 12/1/2001 9:26 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011201102602.14937.00000203@mb-fr.aol.com> >Subject: Disagreements with TOS and/or community guidelines >Date: 12/1/2001 4:12 AM Eastern Standard Time >From: LDRS LFST Shahid >Message-id: <20011201041245.02572.00000303@mb-dh.aol.com> > > > >Hey everyone :) I know that strong opinions abound, but please remember >that the message boards are not the place to carry on personal arguments nor >disagreements of TOS and/or community guidelines. > >The best sources of information for questions or disagreements with actions >taken are LDRS LFST Mgr, TOSGeneral, or Keyword TOSQuestions. > >Thank you for understanding everyone :) > >LDRS LFST Shahid >AOL Lifestyles > You're making an utterly false appeareance here of fairness and reasonableness. Anyone remotely familiar with your history of censorship and coercion of conscience on AOL will not fail to recognize what you're really doing here. Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Are you going to suppress my posts re talk.religion.bahai? Date: 12/1/2001 9:38 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011201103847.14937.00000205@mb-fr.aol.com> Your suggestion here is completely bogus. I have not posted the same message. Your distorting and misrepresenting my posts in order to suit your fundamentalist motives and justify your wish to fraudulently TOS me. You're obviously playing to the choir, the TOSGeneral in this case. The repeated posting of your URL is okay, though, of course.... >Subject: Re: Are you going to suppress my posts re talk.religion.bahai? >Date: 11/30/2001 1:08 AM Eastern Standard Time >From: LDRS LFST Shahid >Message-id: <20011130010806.12953.00000033@mb-ch.aol.com> > > >Dear friends, > >I would like to remind everyone that a given post should only be made once on >this board within any thirty day period. Otherwise it constitutes spam and as >such will be considered disruptive. >LDRS LFST Shahid >AOL Lifestyles > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience ---------- From: Glaysh112001@aol.com[SMTP:Glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 10:26 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Fwd: Board Posting at Keyword: Baha'i <> not the message I had posted; I had deleted URLs to my website ---------- From: Glaysh112001[SMTP:glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 10:48 AM To: benkucharski@aol.com; FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: The hypocrisy of Shahid's censorship Rule, As a bahai for more than 25 years, I couldn't agree more with your analysis of the way things stand in the bahai faith and here on AOL. Thanks for your courage and persistence under severe conditions.... Fred >Subject: The hypocrisy of Shahid's censorship >Date: 12/2/2001 12:36 AM Eastern Standard Time >From: Ruletherod >Message-id: <20011202003621.16383.00000295@mb-ma.aol.com> > > >Subject: Hate Speech >Date: 12/1/2001 4:57 PM >From: LDRS LFST Shahid > > > >Dear Members, > >Please keep in mind that this board is dedicated to discussion of the Baha'i >Faith. We should avoid making derogatory comments about other religions here. >Also, keep in mind that postings which contain hate speech and urge violence >are not acceptable in any area of the service. > >LDRS LFST Shahid >AOL Lifestyles > > > This is just plain old-fashioned censorship; you're overreacting >again. You're trying to impose a sugarcoated world here in the name of >the Baha'i Faith. Everything has to be politically correct! > > I think all of the derogatory talk about "covenant-breakers" being a >"spiritual-illness" and the like is hate speech...but Baha'is have their >double-standards about all this. > > The Taliban and the tyrants in Iran have one thing in common >with Baha'is: censorship -- the suppression of free speech. As long >as this happens, the world will reject the Baha'i Faith the way it has >Fascism. > > What have you learned from the past, Shahid? >You certainly know nothing about McCarthyism. > >--Rule > Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience ---------- From: Glaysh112001@aol.com[SMTP:Glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 5:16 PM To: FG@home.com Cc: LDRSLFSTMgr@aol.com; LDRSLFSTJerry@aol.com Subject: Re: Board Posting at Keyword: Baha'i I believe LDRS LFST Shahid the community leader of the bahai message boards is either TOSing me a second for the very same message or has changed the second message I posted under Questions to Community Leaders in which I had deleted the link to my website. Please consult my original posts to determine whether she has added my links back in and then passed it off to you as my message in order to re-TOS me. Thank you. Fred Glaysher Subj: Board Posting at Keyword: Baha'i Date: 12/1/2001 5:24:30 PM Eastern Standard Time From: LDRS LFST Shahid To: Glaysh112001 CC: LDRS LFST Mgr, LDRS LFST Jerry Dear Member: Regarding your messages posted at: Baha'i Message Boards>General Discussion To avoid further disruption to the message board, your posts have been removed. Please review Keyword: Message Board Product Guidelines and Keyword: Spirituality Message Board Standards for more information on what is appropriate in our community. Depending on the severity of the disruption, a report may have been submitted to AOL's Community Action Team for further review. Thanks for taking the time to read this letter. Please note, I cannot respond to replies. Please address any questions or comments to LDRS LFST Mgr. Regards, LDRS LFST Shahid Volunteer Message Board Host AOL Lifestyles Subject: Re: NM Lawsuit - Summary of Hearing to Dismiss Date: 11/28/2001 11:23 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011128122319.22507.00003580@mb-cg.aol.com> >>New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL > >Oh, you mean that case that got thrown out of court! >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Subject: Re: Violence as an instrument Date: 11/28/2001 11:27 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011128122703.22507.00003583@mb-cg.aol.com> > >Terrorist cells around >>the world are waiting for the green light of jihad. > >I believe the 'green light' was given on Sept. 11. > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Subject: Re: Former Vice President speaks out Date: 11/28/2001 11:46 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011128124622.13024.00002523@mb-mg.aol.com> >>"My heart goes out to the Baha'is of Iran. They have suffered >>more at the hands of their countrymen than that cult in Waco." >> >>--Dan Quayle > >Rule, > >Did Quayle really say that? > >warmest, Susan > > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Former Vice President speaks out Date: 11/28/2001 11:48 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011128124832.13024.00002526@mb-mg.aol.com> >His wife is a Christian Reconstructionalist. I'd be very careful. >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Or please explain for me and other bahais on the bahai message boards why she is permitted to post her fundamentalist URL while others are not. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience ---------- From: Glaysh112001@aol.com[SMTP:Glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 8:35 AM To: Cat@aol.com; BenKucharski@aol.com Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Community Leader on Bahai message boards posts her URL bahai message boards>Question to the Community Leaders >Subject: URLs >Date: 12/1/2001 4:15 AM Eastern Standard Time >From: LDRS LFST Shahid >Message-id: <20011201041527.02572.00000304@mb-dh.aol.com> > > >Dear Members, > >The question has arisen as to the use of t URLs. Iis perfectly okay to post a >URL to a website on this board so long as the material on that website is in >keeping with the Board purpose, along with TOS and community standards. If >not, such a post may be removed. >LDRS LFST Shahid >AOL Lifestyles I'm emailing Ben Kucharski and the Community Action Team because it's proving impossible to get the attention of anyone at AOL other than your form responses from the TOSGeneral that refer me back to the community leader, WHO IS THE PROBLEM and IS UNFAIRLY MANIPULATING TOS RULES!!! The community leader of the bahai message boards, Shahid or Susan Maneck, is regularly TOSing more liberal-minded people for posting URLs while posting dozens of copies of her URL to her own fundamentalist website. As I mentioned, I and other liberal-minded bahais believe this volunteer leader regularly abuses her position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom she and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views she opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... I'm only asking for fairness! IF we shouldn't post URLs, neither should she! She has now turned it into a "policy" permitting her to judge what is in "keeping with the Board purpose" while suppressing anyone who disagrees with her. See all of the examples below, scattered all over the bahai message boards. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ Subject: Re: Are you going to suppress "irregular tax breaks"? Date: 9/9/2001 9:03 PM Eastern Standard Time From: Smaneck Message-id: <20010909220324.18255.00001516@mb-md.aol.com> >The apparent intention is indeed to suppress the Israeli newspaper report of >the uhj receiving "irregular tax breaks." > What those 'irregular tax breaks' are all about is the fact that Baha'is get a rebate of value added taxes as a religious organization. Big deal! I guess there are some members of the religious right who probably object to anyone but Orthodox Jews getting those. But if Fred can make it look like a case of corruption, you can be sure he will. warmest, Susan https://www.susanmaneck.com -------------------- Further examples of Shahid or Ms. Maneck's unfairness on AOL scattered all over the bahai message boards: >and as such should be investigated and studied by scientists. (31 December >1937, to an individual) > > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Or please explain for me and other bahais on the bahai message boards why she is permitted to post her fundamentalist URL while others are not. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >>"My heart goes out to the Baha'is of Iran. They have suffered >>more at the hands of their countrymen than that cult in Waco." >> >>--Dan Quayle > >Rule, > >Did Quayle really say that? > >warmest, Susan > > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >His wife is a Christian Reconstructionalist. I'd be very careful. >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Or please explain for me and other bahais on the bahai message boards why she is permitted to post her fundamentalist URL while others are not. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > >Terrorist cells around >>the world are waiting for the green light of jihad. > >I believe the 'green light' was given on Sept. 11. > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com Ms Maneck, the community leader on the bahai message boards, is misusing her position by constantly posting a link to her website while TOSing anyone else who responds in kind, especially when they are bahais like myself who do not share her fundamentalist interpretation of Baha'u'llah's Revelation. Please advise her to desist or be tolerant of others who follow her example. Thank you. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Frederick Glaysher
Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 7:33 PM Subject: BAHA'IS ISSUE STATEMENT ON EDUCATION AND FREEDOM OF BELIEF Quite possibly the most hypocritical statement ever release by a religious organization..... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Subject: Baha'is Issue Statement on Education and Freedom of Belief Date: 12/3/2001 11:19 AM Eastern Standard Time From: WScott1995 Message-id: <20011203111915.22728.00000754@mb-fc.aol.com> BAHA'IS ISSUE STATEMENT ON EDUCATION AND FREEDOM OF BELIEF MADRID, 25 November 2001 (BWNS) -- The Baha'i International Community presented a statement, entitled "Belief and Tolerance: Lights Amidst the Darkness," at the International Consultative Conference on School Education in relation with Freedom of Religion and Belief, Tolerance and Non-discrimination, a United Nations conference held in Madrid on 23-25 November 2001. The full text of the statement follows below: The human spirit must be free to know. Apprehending who we are, for what purpose we exist, and how we should live our lives, is a basic impulse of human consciousness. This quest for self-understanding and meaning is the essence of life itself. The innate and fundamental aspiration to investigate reality is thus a right and an obligation of every human being. It is for this reason that the Baha'i teachings affirm that the "conscience of man is sacred and to be respected."1 To search for truth-to see with one's "own eyes and not through the eyes of others"-is to undertake a process of spiritual discovery with a keen sense of justice and openness.2 It is by its very nature a process that is creative and transformative; if pursued with sincerity and fairness, it can bestow upon the seeker of knowledge "a new eye, a new ear, a new heart, and a new mind."3 The rational soul is thereby awakened to the capacities of kindness, forbearance, and compassion that lie within it. Clearly, the human yearning for truth is a power that cannot be shackled, for without the freedom to know, human nature remains the prisoner of instinct, ignorance and desire. In the midst of an age convulsed by moral crisis and social disintegration, the need for understanding about who we are as human beings is vital to the achievement of lasting peace and well-being. Historically, such insight about human existence and behavior has been provided by religion. Its indispensable function in addressing the universal inclination towards transcendence, and its essential role in civilizing human character throughout the ages, have been central to defining human identity as well as promoting social order. Through its cultivation of humanity's spiritual nature, religion has ennobled the lives of peoples everywhere and has engendered cohesion and unity of purpose within and across societies. Religion, in a very real sense, provides the warp and woof of the social fabric-the shared beliefs and moral vision that unite people into communities and that give tangible direction and meaning to individual and collective life. The right to exercise freedom of conscience in the matters of religion and belief is therefore not only crucial to satisfying the spiritual promptings of the aspiring soul, but to the enterprise of building harmonious and equitable patterns of living. Coercion in matters of faith vitiates the very principles of religion. For commitment can only be born of belief that is freely chosen. The right to freedom of thought, conscience and belief now codified in international human rights instruments directly finds its roots in the scriptures of the world's religions. This fact should assure each of us that truth need not be feared, as it has many facets and shelters all of our diverse expressions of faith. If, after all, people of religious faith believe that the Creator is eternal and the center of all existence, then they must also believe that the unfettered and genuine search for truth will lead to truth. The elimination of all barriers to the free exploration, acceptance, and expression of religious belief is critical to the objective of a creating a universal culture of human rights. However, to clear the way for a constructive dialogue about the role of religion in establishing social justice, an historical accounting must be taken. That religion has been responsible for immense suffering cannot be denied. Much darkness and confusion can be attributed to those who have appropriated the symbols and instruments of religion for their own selfish purposes. Fanaticism and conflict poison the wells of tolerance and represent corrupt expressions of true religious values. Consequently, vigilance is necessary in safeguarding the transformative power of religion from the forces of extreme orthodoxy on one hand, and irresponsible freedom on the other. "The purpose of religion," Baha'u'llah states "...is to establish unity and concord amongst the peoples of the world; make it not the cause of dissension and strife."4 In unity-a unity that embraces and honors the full diversity of humankind-all problems can be solved. When applied on a universal basis, the teaching that we should treat others as we ourselves wish to be treated, an ethic variously repeated in all the great religions, will undoubtedly reveal the salutary power of unity. The building of a global society based on cooperation, reciprocity, and genuine concern for others is the ultimate expression of unified action. In short, the core spiritual values held in common by the world's religions contain within them the principal means for the reconciliation and advancement of the earth's peoples. Through these values and the commitment they inspire, "Minds, hearts and all human forces are reformed, perfections are quickened, sciences, discoveries and investigations are stimulated afresh, and everything appertaining to the virtues of the human world is revitalized."5 In order to play its part in overcoming the prejudices and suspicions now afflicting the world's faith communities, religious leadership must devote attention to these commonly shared spiritual precepts rather than doctrinal differences or claims of exclusivity. Let each religion demonstrate its capacity to guide the world's inhabitants to peaceful coexistence, moral rectitude and mutual understanding, rather than spreading enmity, fear and intolerance. The recent trend toward interfaith dialogue around the globe offers a positive example of how disparate communities can work together to broaden vision and shape public discourse in a unifying way. Religious leaders are uniquely placed to draw attention to the potentialities and promise of the present moment in human affairs, and challenge all key societal players to action. Increasing interchange among spiritual leaders and their followers, especially children, will no doubt lead to new understandings of what is possible for human beings and how peaceful patterns of collective life can be nurtured. "Shut your eyes to estrangement, then fix your gaze upon unity," is Baha'u'llah's counsel. "Cleave tenaciously unto that which will lead to the well-being and tranquillity of all mankind. This span of earth is but one homeland and one habitation."6 For the global Baha'i community, the protection of human freedoms is part of a larger spiritual undertaking of fostering a set of attitudes and practices that truly release human potential. Genuine social progress, it believes, can only flow from spiritual awareness and the inculcation of virtue. From this perspective, the task of creating a universal ethos of tolerance is intimately bound up with a process of moral and spiritual development. Education, then, emerges as an indispensable tool--a tool of active moral learning. To accomplish the broad objectives of ensuring the "full development of the human personality and the sense of its dignity" and promoting "understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial, ethnic or religious groups," education must strive to develop an integrated set of human capabilities-intellectual, artistic, social, moral and spiritual.7 There is no other way to raise up positive social actors who are builders of amity and agents of service and probity. "Regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value," Baha'u'llah urges, "Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to benefit therefrom."8 These "treasures" must be consciously developed because even though nobility, goodness and beauty are innate aspects of our nature, human beings can fall prey to inclinations that corrupt the inner self and quench the light of love. Educational curricula cannot therefore be solely concerned with the knowledge of physical and social phenomena, but must also be directed toward the goal of moral and spiritual empowerment. As a consequence of the deep connection between individual and social well-being, programs of education need to instill in every child a two- fold moral purpose. The first relates to the process of personal transformation-of intellectual, material and spiritual growth. The second concerns the complex challenge of transforming the structures and processes of society itself. To pursue this dual purpose of individual and collective transformation, specific moral capabilities must be developed. The capabilities of a moral person encompass the concepts, values, attitudes, and skills that enable the person to make appropriate moral choices and to promote creative and cooperative patterns of human interaction.9 Underpinning all such capabilities is a commitment to discover and apply truth in every domain of human endeavor. Since moral behavior is a concrete expression of humanity's spiritual nature, moral education efforts should draw in a systematic way on both the methods of science and the insights of religion. An integral feature of any educational initiative having a moral and spiritual focus must be the notion of the oneness and interdependence of the human race. Oneness and diversity are complementary and inseparable. That human consciousness necessarily operates through an infinite diversity of individual minds and motivations detracts in no way from its essential unity. Indeed, it is precisely an inhering diversity that distinguishes unity from homogeneity or uniformity. Hence, acceptance of the concept of unity in diversity implies the development of a global consciousness, a sense of world citizenship, and a love for all of humanity. It induces every individual to realize that, since the body of humankind is one and indivisible, each member of the human race is born into the world as a trust of the whole and has a responsibility to the whole. It further suggests that if a peaceful international community is to emerge, then the complex and varied cultural expressions of humanity must be allowed to develop and flourish, as well as to interact with one another in ever-changing patterns of civilization. "The diversity in the human family," the Baha'i writings emphasize, "should be the cause of love and harmony, as it is in music where many different notes blend together in the making of a perfect chord."10 The rich religious heritage of humankind can also be viewed through the lens of unity. Baha'u'llah states: "There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God."11 The world's religions can thus be seen to be one in their nature and purpose with each being a wellspring of knowledge, energy and inspiration. They each have served to unlock a wider range of capacities within human consciousness and society-a process that has impelled the human race toward moral and spiritual maturity. Accordingly, curricula exploring the history and teachings of religion may wish to highlight the complementary aims and functions of the world's faith systems as well as the theological and moral threads that link them. In this regard, the right to investigate religion and the spiritual roots of human motivation can be understood to be a vital element of an integrating framework of collaboration and conciliation. The promotion of tolerance and mutual understanding among the diverse segments of the human family cannot be a passive or rhetorical exercise. All forms of provincialism, all insularities and prejudices must be directly confronted. It is unfortunately the case that religious prejudice is a particularly virulent influence that continues to block human progress. Overcoming its corrosive effects will require deliberate and sustained effort. Toward this end, innovative and substantive programs of education are essential. But so too is an attitude of true humility among all those who believe in a loving and almighty Creator. Let us be assured, and let it be communicated to the world's children, that it is possible to both tread the path of religious faith and to be tolerant. Civilization's future course depends on it. In the words of Baha'u'llah, "observe tolerance and righteousness, which are two lights amidst the darkness of the world and two educators for the edification of mankind."12 1 'Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative (Wilmette: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 1980), p. 91. 2 Baha'u'llah, The Hidden Words (Wilmette: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 1985), p. 4. 3 Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan (Wilmette: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 1983), p. 196. 4 Tablets of Baha'u'llah revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas (Wilmette: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 1988), p. 129. 5 'Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace (Wilmette: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 1995), p. 278. 6 Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 67. 7 Article 13 of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights; article 26 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. 8 Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah (Wilmette: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 1983), p. 260. 9 The educational philosophy of Núr University, the second largest private institution of higher learning in Bolivia and Baha'i-inspired, is largely based on this idea of moral capabilities. 10 'Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, (London: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 1972), p. 53. 11 Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p 217. 12 Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 36. -- BIC-OPI-011125-1-EDUCATION-141-S ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Advance release: Please check our website for the final version of this article. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Copyright 2001 by the Baha'i World News Service. All stories and photographs produced by the Bahá'í World News Service may be freely reprinted, re-emailed, re-posted to the World Wide Web and otherwise reproduced by any individual or organization as long as they are attributed to the Bahá'í World News Service. For more information, visit https://www.bahaiworldnews.org. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- If you have questions about this list or wish to unsubscribe, contact subscribe@bahaiworldnews.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ---------- From: Glaysh112001[SMTP:glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 7:32 AM To: FG@hotmail.com; CAT@aol.com; benkucharski@aol.com Subject: Re: URLs >Subject: URLs >Date: 12/1/2001 4:15 AM Eastern Standard Time >From: LDRS LFST Shahid >Message-id: <20011201041527.02572.00000304@mb-dh.aol.com> > > >Dear Members, > >The question has arisen as to the use of URLs. It is perfectly okay to post a >URL to a website on this board so long as the material on that website is in >keeping with the Board purpose, along with TOS and community standards. If >not, such a post may be removed. >LDRS LFST Shahid >AOL Lifestyles THAT'S not what AOL's TOS rules state, which prohibit, apparently, ALL URLs. There's no codicil on yours, i.e., Susan Maneck. Most normal people would call this a double standards. See below. Many other examples exist all over the bahai message boards. ------- like a case of corruption, you can be sure he will. warmest, Susan https://www.susanmaneck.com -------------------- >1937, to an individual) > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com >Did Quayle really say that? > >warmest, Susan > > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > I'd be very careful. >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > 11. > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com Frederick Glaysher
Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 8:06 AM Subject: FORTHCOMING - BahaiCensorship2001 on CD!!!! - Watch for it! FORTHCOMING - BahaiCensorship2001 on an executable CD!!!! - Watch for it! You'll soon be able to have access to documentation of bahai censorship even when your ISP is down! Take it with you anywhere! Download and store these archives for study by future Bahai scholars. Entire Website: BahaiCensorship.Zip 17 megabytes Oct 27, 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/archive.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 9:39 AM Subject: Re: bahai - "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." David Langness on Hoda Mahmoudi: "I would advise you to be careful about any meetings, calls or correspondence with Hoda Mahmoudi, who used to be an ABM here in Southern California. She is quite conservative, and sees herself -- as do many of the appointed branch, sadly -- as a staunch defender of the Faith and the faithful, able and more than willing to marginalize people like you and I to discredit our ideas. This cultlike practice of shunning and casting out any dissidents has unfortunately become the chief tactic of those fundamentalist Baha'is bent on maintaining the current leadership. My worry is that the more progressive Baha'is like Juan Cole and Steve Scholl and yourself will all leave the Faith and thereby increase the power of the conservatives." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Langness.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:Pe3Q7.7128$va.3176100@news2.rdc1.mi.home.com... Well, Dermod, Much heat, little light.... Notice first Fiorito's distortions didn't work so enter Maneck.... To whose claims I ask, if a letter or message had been sent to Hoda Mahmoudi, auxiliary board member, why and how would Maneck know anything about it? The Mahmoudi message was sent to me the very morning of the day that the first voting period for talk.religion.bahai ended and the RESULTS was posted, when over 600 fundamentalists followed the advice of fanatic Mark Towfiq and others to oppose free speech and open discussion. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Towfiq.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/1stRESULT.htm If a letter was sent to Mahoudi, it addressed only that context. It's a well known fact that Maneck is Gharidian's sycophant. If she has been given a letter intended for the context of Hoda Mahmoudi's interferring in the free and unfettered voting for talk.religion.bahai, thereby violating the very Words of Abdu'l-Baha extolling freedom of speech and conscience and which led me to appeal to the uhj for an explanation of Mahmoudi's deceitful interference, let her post a copy of it on talk.religion.bahai, though it is tantamount to backbiting and further slander, in my opinion, to distort a communication in one context to fit the evil designs of a corrupted fundamentalist administration in another. See Mahmoudi's deceitfully sugarcoated, intimidating letter at the bottom of the link below. Note that Mahmoudi never asked to meet with me but to telephone her. The other claims along these lines are false. Further note that the administration is definitely interferring in free speech and conscience here on talk.religion.bahai and other online venues through their various sycophants in contradistinction to Abdu'l-Baha's elevating vision. To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ72498.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/uhj12-10-99.htm I reiterate that I am under no obligation to believe the claims of vulgar liars and slanderous pseudo-academicians distorting past events and communications to fit a now different agenda. https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain I notified the nsa of my declaration of belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976. They acknowledged my declaration by sending me back the ID card available for viewing on my homepage and by accepting monetary contributions from me for years, not to mention many personal sacrifices. Further details of my participation in the bahai faith, in sundry ways, may be found in my uhj letters also accessible from my homepage. If the nsa has unilaterally changed my status as a member of the bahai faith, the obligation resides with them to notify me to that effect, which they have never done.... I urge the non-bahai looking in on this exchange to investigate and reflect carefully on the issues involved and on what they reveal about the bahai faith in practice versus theory.... Consider too that the real target of the fundamentalist attack on me may actually be the bahai community at large, to strike fear and obedience in their hearts in order to control them and to insure their submission, lest they too become the object of such a ferocious, incessant onslaught of slander and abuse.... Other relevant messages and details at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/images/Bahai-IDgif.gif For those who think this smear campaign is something new, Google archives my being hounding by the fundamentalists along these lines for years: https://groups.google.com/groups?q=Mahmoudi&hl=en&group=talk.religion.bahai&filter=0 I place my trust in Baha'u'llah. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:09 AM Subject: Re: bahai - talk.religion.bahai - "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." Michael, 600+ no votes on the first interest poll. You're right that people on news.groups were noticeably shocked by the figure and realized something was going on. One of them immediately created alt.religion.bahai in response. There's a very long and complicated record of fundamentalist interference in the creation of talk.religion.bahai. For those interested, most of the relevant docs are at this link: https://fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/trbmenu.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:9v0nel$q4k$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Hi, Pat. > Duh, have I wandered into another sliders world again. I recall some > outlandish figure such as 900 plus NO votes the first time TRB was voted > on. People at News.Groups noticed this and some helped out on finally > getting the Newsgroup through. Sorry for my poor memory, but perhaps all > these alternate universes I've passed through contributes to that. I do > have the impression it took three tries before TRB got through. Taking all > three votes, including that first one with its NSA of Iceland NO vote, or > was that on the second ballot?, I strongly suspect more Baha'is voted to > prevent this first uncensored line of communication in recent Baha'i > generations. > Thrive, > M. > > > Pat Kohli (kohli@ameritel.net) writes: > > > > He has voting results which show that more Baha'is voted for TRB than against > > it, yet he concludes that Baha'is were an obstacle to TRB formation. > > > > Blessings! > > - Pat > > kohli@ameritel.net > > > > > > > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 3:53 PM Subject: Annan Accepts Peace Honor, Highlights U.N. Priorities Apparently Annan hasn't heard that the bahai faith has no respect for tolerance or has been deceived by its lackies at the UN.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "We have entered the third millennium through a gate of fire," he said. "If today, after the horror of 11 September, we see better and we see further, we will realize that humanity is indivisible." "In the early beginnings of the 21st century -- a century already violently disabused of any hopes that progress towards global peace and prosperity is inevitable -- this new reality can no longer be ignored," Annan said, adding that "new threats make no distinction between races, nations or regions." As for U.N. priorities in the coming years, Annan said, "In the 21st century I believe the mission of the United Nations will be defined by a new, more profound awareness of the sanctity and dignity of every human life, regardless of race or religion. ... From this vision of the role of the United Nations in the next century flow three key priorities for the future: eradicating poverty, preventing conflict and promoting democracy" (Agence France-Presse, Dec. 10). Annan also said that all major religions recognize the values of tolerance and that should be respected. "The notion that what is ours is necessarily in conflict with what is theirs ... has resulted in endless enmity and conflict, leading men to commit the greatest of crimes in the name of a higher power" (Kim Gamel, Associated Press, Dec. 10). ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 7:07 AM Subject: Re: AOL - Maneck's fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards Maneck's fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards "Recently, Dr. Maneck, A.K.A. LDRS LFST, Shahid, on America Online's Baha'i Faith Bulletin Board posted the following...." What may be expected from such a bahai community "leader" on AOL may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position" : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship1.htm Continuing AOL Censorship by bahais 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL2001.htm Those tired of Maneck posting her URL on AOL should see the relevant thread at Question to Community Leaders. Or call and complain at 800-827-6364. Also complain at Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, and then Ask the Staff, works well too. It goes over Maneck's head, as I was told on the phone. Incidentally, when you email the TOSGeneral from anywhere in bahai AOL space it in fact goes directly to Maneck, nobody else, which is again why you have to go around her now if you're tired of her manipulating TOS rules and employing her double standards on many fronts. SHE'S the TOSGeneral!! No wonder nothing results.... As a bahai for over 25 years, I'm very tired of her dishonest manipulation of AOL and wish AOL would replace her with an honest person who fairly allows all views to be heard. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 7:15 AM Subject: Re: bahai - "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." Disclaimer: Given Abdu'l-Baha's respect for the individual's conscience and the frequent lack of it in everyday Bahai life, I must emphasize all ideas and opinions belong to their authors and do not necessarily reflect my views. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Milissa" wrote in message news:df0d6959.0112091224.1e794913@posting.google.com... > Hi Karen-- > > > promote awareness of the problems in the Baha'i system about those issues. > > Fred, or at least his online persona (which I believe to be deliberately > > contrived), is about as lovable as a prickly pear, but he has made an > > important contribution. > > > > Love, Karen > > > You know, if it was only that, maybe I could agree with you about this > and learn to tolerate him more. But he also endorses, by prominently > listing them as links on his website, several sites by Muslim > apologists that contain extreme amounts of misinformation. He > promotes sites that tell lies about *Baha'u'llah*.....I can't > understand how anti-Baha'i Muslim polemical works have anything to do > with the functioning of the community. Those sites were written > primarily to denigrate Baha'u'llah and convince people not to believe > in Him. Regardless of the status of his damn card, I can't understand > why someone who claims to be a follower of Baha'u'llah could do that. > Even the CBs, in their websites, don't do that. > > Peace, > Milissa ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 7:28 AM Subject: bahai - non-bahais - WARNING - bahai - non-bahais - WARNING - bahai - non-bahais - WARNING - bahai - non-bahais - WARNING - bahai - non-bahais - WARNING - bahai - non-bahais - WARNING - bahai - non-bahais - WARNING - bahai - non-bahais - WARNING - bahai - Those new to bahai cyberspace might want to consider that they are entering a psychological war zone when they look in on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, Beliefnet.com, and elsewhere bahai fundamentalists are attempting to portray many fellow bahais and non-bahais in exceedingly negative terms. A more than decade-long record of this psychological, spiritual battle, on and off-line, may be quickly skimmed, or read to the degree of your interest, at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 8:54 AM Subject: bahai - Re: Annan Accepts Peace Honor, Highlights U.N. Priorities Annan: The idea that there is one people in possession of the truth, one answer to the world's ills, or one solution to humanity's needs, has done untold harm throughout history --- especially in the last century. Today, however, even amidst continuing ethnic conflict around the world, there is a growing understanding that human diversity is both the reality that makes dialogue necessary, and the very basis for that dialogue. Full text of his Nobel speech at https://www.un.org/News/ossg/latestsm.htm Compare what the uhj perpetrated against *dialogue* when it orchestrated the shutting down of *dialogue*: S U M M E R / F A L L 1 9 8 7 A Modest Proposal: Recommendations Toward the Revitalization of the American Baha'i Community https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/modest.htm See Roll Call of Victims of those fundamentalist bahais who alone possess truth.... https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/RollCall.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:34 AM Subject: Re: bahai - talk.religion.bahai - "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:9v56tv$l5r$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Greetings, Frederick. > As I've said before, many thanks for your tremendous effort to pierce > the balloon of Baha'i censorship. > Thrive, > Michael Thanks, Michael. Alas, I wish it had not been necessary.... With no end in sight, I find it difficult to believe it will ever pop. It seems to me there's only an ever-more fanatical entrenchment that advances the worst fundamentalist elements to the forefront, on and off-line, all the more hastening decline, while ignoring Abdu'l-Baha's great vision: "Likewise in the world of religion there should be the right of unrestricted individual belief." Appallingly, the hypocrisy only increases to ever-more shocking heights as evidenced by the recent BAHA'IS ISSUE STATEMENT ON EDUCATION AND FREEDOM OF BELIEF, available here on talk.religion.bahai. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: Glaysh112001[SMTP:glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 7:11 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Proselytizing Your usual slander, clear and simply.... >ubject: Re: Proselytizing >Date: 12/12/2001 11:46 AM Eastern Standard Time >From: Smaneck >Message-id: <20011212114659.22386.00003182@mb-md.aol.com> > > >> >>When you, as a person who is not a Baha'i, come here and try to persuade >>Baha'is to abandon their beliefs and join your religion you are >>proselytizing. > >Dear Sunni, > >I don't think Fred can be said to have a religion. He has not promoted >*anything* of a positive nature about his beliefs, he has only trashed the >Baha'i Faith. Were he even to present an alternative Baha'i Faith here, we >would have to accept that. After all, even Covenant breaking posts are >permitted in this forum. > >What is confusing here, is that Fred continues to call himself a Baha'i >although he is not a part of the Baha'i community or any alternative. Nor is >he presenting any alternative vision which he calls Baha'i. And he would be >free to do that here. >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher
Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 7:39 AM Subject: Re: bahai - "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." Maneck's fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards "Recently, Dr. Maneck, A.K.A. LDRS LFST, Shahid, on America Online's Baha'i Faith Bulletin Board posted the following...." What may be expected from such a bahai community "leader" on AOL may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position" : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship1.htm Continuing AOL Censorship by bahais 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL2001.htm Those tired of Maneck posting her URL on AOL should see the relevant thread at Question to Community Leaders. Or call and complain at 800-827-6364. Also complain at Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, and then Ask the Staff, works well too. It goes over Maneck's head, as I was told on the phone. Incidentally, when you email the TOSGeneral from anywhere in bahai AOL space it in fact goes directly to Maneck, nobody else, which is again why you have to go around her now if you're tired of her manipulating TOS rules and employing her double standards on many fronts. SHE'S the TOSGeneral!! No wonder nothing results.... As a bahai for over 25 years, I'm very tired of her dishonest manipulation of AOL and wish AOL would replace her with an honest person who fairly allows all views to be heard. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 7:39 AM Subject: Re: bahai - "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." Maneck's fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards "Recently, Dr. Maneck, A.K.A. LDRS LFST, Shahid, on America Online's Baha'i Faith Bulletin Board posted the following...." What may be expected from such a bahai community "leader" on AOL may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position" : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship1.htm Continuing AOL Censorship by bahais 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL2001.htm Those tired of Maneck posting her URL on AOL should see the relevant thread at Question to Community Leaders. Or call and complain at 800-827-6364. Also complain at Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, and then Ask the Staff, works well too. It goes over Maneck's head, as I was told on the phone. Incidentally, when you email the TOSGeneral from anywhere in bahai AOL space it in fact goes directly to Maneck, nobody else, which is again why you have to go around her now if you're tired of her manipulating TOS rules and employing her double standards on many fronts. SHE'S the TOSGeneral!! No wonder nothing results.... As a bahai for over 25 years, I'm very tired of her dishonest manipulation of AOL and wish AOL would replace her with an honest person who fairly allows all views to be heard. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 7:58 AM Subject: Re: bahai - REVISED - Hoda Mahmoudi & "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011213014355.12706.00002103@mb-cu.aol.com... > > > >Maneck stated I had written and posted a message to Mahmoudi > >on google > > Dear Fred, > > I never said it was on Google. To my knowledge google didn't even exist at the > time you posted this letter on your website. You said you had seen the hypothetical message on Google or my website. No matter. The link below demonstrates it's not on Google: https://groups.google.com/groups?q=Mahmoudi&hl=en&group=talk.religion.bahai&filter=0 And it's not on my website. Since you're the one claiming it exists and was posted on my website, it's up to you to prove it. If your bosses have given you a copy, post it here on talk.religion.bahai. Or are you a liar, who can only slander, smear, and discredit other bahais who don't share your fundamentalist interpretations with bogus claims, attempting to drive them out since you can't tolerate anyone who doesn't mirror back to you your literal-minded views.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 8:24 AM Subject: bahai - A Modest Proposal & NM Lawsuit It occurs to me that had David Langness's Modest Proposal been implemented, even to a modest degree, the climate that produced the New Mexico Lawsuit might not even have existed by the time of Deborah Buchhorn's victimization.... See Dialogue archives at Dialogue Magazine 1986-1988 David Langness on Hoda Mahmoudi and censorship -------------------------------------------------------- dialogue: S U M M E R / F A L L 1 9 8 7 A Modest Proposal: Recommendations Toward the Revitalization of the American Baha'i Community https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/modest.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 5:41 PM Subject: Re: bahai - "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011208005152.02564.00002093@mb-dh.aol.com... > >To whose claims I ask, if a letter or message had been sent to > >Hoda Mahmoudi, auxiliary board member, why and how would=20 > >Maneck know anything about it? > > Because you posted it on your website, Freddy. > > >If she has been given a letter intended for the context of Hoda > >Mahmoudi's interferring in the free and unfettered voting for > > If *I* had the letter, I would have already posted it here. Unfortunately, the > only place I saw it was on your website and you took it down. Maneck is confusing something else she saw, years ago, with her triumphalist fantasies of fundamentalist glory. I never wrote nor posted such a letter on my website. And if I had it would have been in the context of Mahmoudi's interference in the first interest poll for talk.religion.bahai, the very day of the posting of the RESULTS of 600+ bahai fanatics unleashing their ire on free speech and conscience. I reject both Fiorito and Maneck's lies and misrepresentations, none of which address the issue at hand but merely attempt to slander and cast aspersions upon me. Her claims are more vintage bahai technique, in this case shift the argument to the dim past and arguing and fighting over it. I place my trust in Baha'u'llah: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/BIGS.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Mahmoudi.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 5:45 PM Subject: Re: bahai - "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011213095250.25976.00000054@mb-md.aol.com... > > > >See her slandering other views as garbage: > >https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm > > > >See her slandering other views as litter: > >https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm > > No, Freddy. Just yours. > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > Thanks for admitting you're a slanderer. Of course, that won't surprise anyone who has observed you over the years.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 8:30 AM Subject: Re: bahai - REVISED - Hoda Mahmoudi & "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." More insight on Hoda Mahmoudi: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb95.htm From: Subject: Re: Letter of resignation Date: Sunday, July 25, 1999 10:44 PM: After the persecution of Terry Culhane by Dan Freeman and Hoda Mahmoudi, who I still believe acted with the consent if not at the instigation of Steve Birkland, what was the House response? You know as well as I do Susan, the disgusting manner in which Terry was treated by Freeman and Mahmoudi. In fact, *you* called me up on the phone at 11:30 p.m. and said, "We have a problem" referring to Birkland, Freeman and Mahmoudi's actions. That's not dialogue. Review??? You may be able to live with it, Susan, but I call it censorship. "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:PB1S7.20764$va.9760634@news2.rdc1.mi.home.com... "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011213014355.12706.00002103@mb-cu.aol.com... > > > >Maneck stated I had written and posted a message to Mahmoudi > >on google > > Dear Fred, > > I never said it was on Google. To my knowledge google didn't even exist at the > time you posted this letter on your website. You said you had seen the hypothetical message on Google or my website. No matter. The link below demonstrates it's not on Google: https://groups.google.com/groups?q=Mahmoudi&hl=en&group=talk.religion.bahai&filter=0 And it's not on my website. Since you're the one claiming it exists and was posted on my website, it's up to you to prove it. If your bosses have given you a copy, post it here on talk.religion.bahai. Or are you a liar, who can only slander, smear, and discredit other bahais who don't share your fundamentalist interpretations with bogus claims, attempting to drive them out since you can't tolerate anyone who doesn't mirror back to you your literal-minded views.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 11:43 AM Subject: Re: bahai - "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." "Dermod Ryder" wrote in message news:9vd6hf$esvup$8@ID-84503.news.dfncis.de... > "Susan Maneck " wrote in message > news:20011213021107.12706.00002109@mb-cu.aol.com... Dermod wrote: > > >But obviously a very bright one! Just think of the positive effect > he might have had if the AO hadn't treated people like him as so much > > >shite! Maneck replied: > > I think Fred would have likely been just as crazy an embarrassment > had he remained a faithful Baha'i. Dermod responded: > But there would have been more competition within the AO - he wouldn't > have stood out as much! It's hard to single out one lunatic in an > asylum where there are so many! Dermod, I expect such characterizations from Maneck et al. Coming from you, it really hurts.... even though you're entitled to your views.... Perhaps you mean it more as a joke and my sense of humor is a little low at the moment.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 6:39 AM Subject: Re: bahai - "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011214114615.25979.00000260@mb-md.aol.com... > > > > > >Maneck is confusing something else she saw, years ago, with her > >triumphalist fantasies of fundamentalist glory. > > Oh, really? Why don't you post that so we can see how accurate my recollection > is? > > >And if I had it would have been > >in the context of Mahmoudi's interference in the first interest poll for > >talk.religion.bahai, > > Hoda letter says nothing about your interest poll. Furthermore, the very fact > that her letter came to you *after* the polling had already been completed > proves her intent couldn't have been interference. If that were so she would > have 'interfered' as soon as you tried to set up this thing. Absolutely false. Hoda's email BEFORE the RESULTS. Knowing what liars I was dealing with, I kept quite about it at first. You're a liar as well. No such letter to Mahmoudi was ever on my website. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Maneck is confusing something else she saw, years ago, with her triumphalist fantasies of fundamentalist glory. I never wrote nor posted such a letter on my website. And if I had it would have been in the context of Mahmoudi's interference in the first interest poll for talk.religion.bahai, the very day of the posting of the RESULTS of 600+ bahai fanatics unleashing their ire on free speech and conscience. I reject both Fiorito and Maneck's lies and misrepresentations, none of which address the issue at hand but merely attempt to slander and cast aspersions upon me. Her claims are more vintage bahai technique, in this case shift the argument to the dim past and arguing and fighting over it. I place my trust in Baha'u'llah: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/BIGS.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Mahmoudi.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 6:57 AM Subject: bahai - FALSE Membership Statistics in India & Elsewhere Professor Juan Cole of the University of Michigan commented in April 2001 that, since 1968, 50% of the people who entered the bahai faith have left it. According to him, a professor of religious history and studies at the University of Michigan, the usually figure for most Christian denominations is approximately 80% retention, meaning about only 20% decide to leave once they become a member. 50% is truly a remarkably high number and reveals emphatically that something is indeed wrong about the atmosphere within the bahai faith, once one has declared one's belief and is taken into the fold to be properly censored, coerced, and manipulated.... Bahai fanatics online exude the same duplicity and dishonesty the new adherent quickly comes to realize is normative behind the facade of love and brotherhood. The FULL TEXT of the New Mexico lawsuit reveals what many of the problems are that are driving sensitive and thoughtful people out of the bahai faith in droves. Cole has also stated that according to the official census figures of India there are approximately only 5,000 bahais that they were able to find in the country compare with the millions claimed by the bahai administration, a fact worth lingering on.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Upon further reflection, a better estimate might be arrived at for true Baha'i world membership statistics than 6.7 million by extrapolating what is generally accepted regarding USA Bahai membership. The Bahai administration regularly claims 140,000 US Bahais. Having never seen such large numbers of US Bahais, most thoughtful Bahais prefer the figure of 60,000 US Bahais based on the widely known existence of actual mailing addresses for that number, many of whom though never participate in Bahai activities, being regarded as "inactive." If we subtract the "inactive" Bahais from the 60,000, we have the figure of approximately only 25,000 Bahais who show up regularly in the United States. Taking these two widely held figures, I calculate 43% and 19% of the 140,000 claimed by the Bahai administration: 140,000 X 43 % = 60,200 addresses for "Bahais" in US 140,000 X 19% = 26,600 "active" US Bahais Applying that formula to the similarly inflated figure of worldwide Bahai membership of 6.7 million, I believe the true worldwide membership numbers to be close to the following: 6.7 million X 43% = 2,881,000 known "addresses" worldwide 6.7 million X 19% = 1,273,000 "active" Bahais worldwide Rounding up, giving the benefit of the doubt, and there are probably only a maximum of 3 million Bahais at best worldwide, especially since there are essentially no Bahais in Europe beyond a negligible few hundred to a thousand in most countries, as in Japan. Many Bahais have for decades been suspicious of the administration's claims of millionsin the developing world. Hope this helps the Encyclopedia Britannica in its effort to ascertain a reliable figure. I should like to add two points: 1) A number of Bahais or ex-Bahais who worked at the NSA of the United States have stated online over the past years that they knew for a fact that only about 60,000 addresses existed for American Bahais-- all other snail mail would bounce.... Hence, the 60,000 figure. 2) TENS of THOUSANDS of people have entered the Bahai faith and then left, or been driven out, often without caring enough to bother with officially "withdrawing." It would appear approximately 80,000 of them.... Both facts should be considered by the Encyclopedia of Britannica when attempting to determine worldwide membership and probably both corroborate further my estimates based on 43% and 19% according to known discrepancies in the United States enrollment figures. Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: bahai.htm ----- Juan, Thanks for contacting the Encyclopedia Britannica. I myself doubt 5 million Bahais exist. The statistics for India and other countries of the developing world are certainly inflated and they usually have only the vaugest idea of what they're doing when they sign a Bahai card, never or seldom to show up again for any Bahai activity. 3 to 4 million would still be too many. Anything below 6.7 million, though, is headed in the right direction. Obviously, the Bahai institutions are unreliable. Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: bahai.htm ----- FYI: Thanks, Fred. I wrote them that even 5 million is an exaggeration. cheers JRIC [Juan Cole] ----- FYI mdiller@us.britannica.com : Hello. Your comment has been bouncing around our email network, from editors to World Data authorities, and the resolution is that we would like to revise our figures for Baha'i membership worldwide provided we can come across hard statistical data to go by. Given that our current figures are based on the best available statistics currently at our disposal, however, we will not be able to make such a change unless you can point us in the direction of publications that indicate exaggerated membership totals in the areas you mention. Do you know of such a reference source that we could consult? Sincerely, Mark Diller, Ph.D. Online Editor, Religion Britannica.com, Inc. > -----Original Message----- > From: Trumbull, Charles > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 8:54 AM > To: Sturgis, Joseph; Diller, Mark > Subject: RE: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia > Britannica > > Our figure this year for total Bahais worldwide is about 6.9 million. I'm > sure the authors of the table would be interested in any hard statistics > any of these readers may have that indicate our figures are too high. > > Charlie > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sturgis, Joseph > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 7:02 AM > To: Trumbull, Charles > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Diller, Mark > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 08:31 AM > To: Sturgis, Joseph > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > > > RE: World Religions Table. Joe Sturgis > > -----Original Message----- > From: Himick, Michael > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 4:34 PM > To: Diller, Mark > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia > Britannica ---- FYI A response from the Encyclopedia of Britannica: --- Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your feedback regarding the Britannica.com site. We value and appreciate all comments from our visitors. Your suggestions have been forwarded to the appropriate department. Thank you again for contacting Britannica.com. Sincerely, Jin Britannica.com Customer Service www.britannica.com -----Original Message----- From: FG Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:33 AM To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com Subject: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as Latin America are often exagerrated. cheers, Nima ----- In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote regard Washington Post article: > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > idx.html > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > bahai.htm ----- Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s7123gsg5k2185@corp.supernews.com... > I've emailed the Encyclopedia Britannica regarding these > false Bahai membership statistics. > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > bahai.htm > [The Washington Post took as accurate the inflated figure of Bahai membership and reported it in its paper:] ----- > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100-idx.html "Bahai's 6,764,000" Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > bahai.htm --- Finally, Juan Cole, in the following articles, places Bahai membership in the USA at 60,000, a figure that, in my opinion, is still too high: "Race, Immorality and Money in the American Baha'i Community" Religion 30, 2 (2000) ---------- From: Glaysh112001@aol.com[SMTP:Glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 8:12 AM To: BenKucharski@aol.com Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: (no subject) Ben, Contacting AOL like sending an email into the blankness of the universe. So here goes again: Please look at the 9 message thread at bahai message boards > General Discussion > My URL The "community leader" knows very well she is violating the TOS rules to her advantage while suppressing URLs to any more liberal-minded bahai sites such as mine. All I ask for is fairness from AOL and she is not capable of providing it and has not now for years. I'm tired of it and ask that she be treated accordingly or removed and replaced with someone who can be fair. I've used Notify AOL, Message Boards, Ask the Staff many times to no avail. The community leader in question, Shahid/Susan Maneck knows she can rely on AOL not caring enough about an obscure religion board to do anything about it. Please prove her wrong.... Thank you for your help. Frederick Glaysher glaysh112001 ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 11:29 AM Subject: Re: AOL - Maneck THREATENS me on AOL -------> fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards Maneck has threatened me on AOL's bahai message boards under General Discussion > My URL. See below. Since I've been reporting her to AOL for her double standard of posting her URL while TOSing me and others for posting liberal links, she's now threatening to attack, as has been done before by the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, my website ISP. The non-bahai observer might wish to reflect on the tactics of Maneck and other bahai fundamentalists on AOL and elsewhere.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Subject: Re: My URL [on AOL] Date: 12/14/2001 6:22 PM Eastern Standard Time From: Smaneck Message-id: <20011214182256.01319.00000340@mb-cg.aol.com> > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ > >Call AOL and complain or use Keyword Notify AOL, >Message Boards, Ask the Staff. > You want people to complain about your website, Fred? I'm sure you can find someone to accomodate you. warmest, Susan https://www.susanmaneck.com Maneck's fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards "Recently, Dr. Maneck, A.K.A. LDRS LFST, Shahid, on America Online's Baha'i Faith Bulletin Board posted the following...." What may be expected from such a bahai community "leader" on AOL may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position" : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship1.htm Continuing AOL Censorship by bahais 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL2001.htm Those tired of Maneck posting her URL on AOL should see the relevant thread at Question to Community Leaders. Or call and complain at 800-827-6364. Also complain at Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, and then Ask the Staff, works well too. It goes over Maneck's head, as I was told on the phone. Incidentally, when you email the TOSGeneral from anywhere in bahai AOL space it in fact goes directly to Maneck, nobody else, which is again why you have to go around her now if you're tired of her manipulating TOS rules and employing her double standards on many fronts. SHE'S the TOSGeneral!! No wonder nothing results.... As a bahai for over 25 years, I'm very tired of her dishonest manipulation of AOL and wish AOL would replace her with an honest person who fairly allows all views to be heard. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 10:34 AM Subject: Re: AOL - Maneck THREATENS me on AOL -------> fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards Ms. Maneck's coments are False. Rather constitutes a DOUBLE STANDARD, which is what she's doing on AOL, spamming her URL while deleting my messages bringing her duplicity to attention..... She lied about a letter ever being on my website and is lying about her deceitful conduct on AOL. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011215124337.07215.00000665@mb-dh.aol.com... > > > >Maneck has threatened me on AOL's bahai message boards > >under General Discussion > > Just responding to your ill-worded post, Freddy. You put up your website and > then tell people to report website URLs to AOL. I pointed out that I was quite > sure you'd find someone to accomodate you. But interesting that you would > suggest that if anyone does to you what you are trying to do to them it > constitutes an unfair threatening tactic of intimidation. > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > Maneck has threatened me on AOL's bahai message boards under General Discussion > My URL. See below. Since I've been reporting her to AOL for her double standard of posting her URL while TOSing me and others for posting liberal links, she's now threatening to attack, as has been done before by the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, my website ISP. The non-bahai observer might wish to reflect on the tactics of Maneck and other bahai fundamentalists on AOL and elsewhere.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Subject: Re: My URL [on AOL] Date: 12/14/2001 6:22 PM Eastern Standard Time From: Smaneck Message-id: <20011214182256.01319.00000340@mb-cg.aol.com> > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ > >Call AOL and complain or use Keyword Notify AOL, >Message Boards, Ask the Staff. > You want people to complain about your website, Fred? I'm sure you can find someone to accomodate you. warmest, Susan https://www.susanmaneck.com Maneck's fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards "Recently, Dr. Maneck, A.K.A. LDRS LFST, Shahid, on America Online's Baha'i Faith Bulletin Board posted the following...." What may be expected from such a bahai community "leader" on AOL may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position" : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship1.htm Continuing AOL Censorship by bahais 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL2001.htm Those tired of Maneck posting her URL on AOL should see the relevant thread at Question to Community Leaders. Or call and complain at 800-827-6364. Also complain at Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, and then Ask the Staff, works well too. It goes over Maneck's head, as I was told on the phone. Incidentally, when you email the TOSGeneral from anywhere in bahai AOL space it in fact goes directly to Maneck, nobody else, which is again why you have to go around her now if you're tired of her manipulating TOS rules and employing her double standards on many fronts. SHE'S the TOSGeneral!! No wonder nothing results.... As a bahai for over 25 years, I'm very tired of her dishonest manipulation of AOL and wish AOL would replace her with an honest person who fairly allows all views to be heard. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 10:35 AM Subject: Re: AOL - Maneck's fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011215224737.12905.00000331@mb-cu.aol.com... > > > >Wow! This is truly outrageous! That Dr. Maneck is posting the exact same > >sort of chicken guano that you post! > > Actually, someone on the Board was rather annoyed that I reposed Fred's spam. "Reposed"? Euphemism for deleted, suppressed.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Maneck has threatened me on AOL's bahai message boards under General Discussion > My URL. See below. Since I've been reporting her to AOL for her double standard of posting her URL while TOSing me and others for posting liberal links, she's now threatening to attack, as has been done before by the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, my website ISP. The non-bahai observer might wish to reflect on the tactics of Maneck and other bahai fundamentalists on AOL and elsewhere.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Subject: Re: My URL [on AOL] Date: 12/14/2001 6:22 PM Eastern Standard Time From: Smaneck Message-id: <20011214182256.01319.00000340@mb-cg.aol.com> > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ > >Call AOL and complain or use Keyword Notify AOL, >Message Boards, Ask the Staff. > You want people to complain about your website, Fred? I'm sure you can find someone to accomodate you. warmest, Susan https://www.susanmaneck.com Maneck's fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards "Recently, Dr. Maneck, A.K.A. LDRS LFST, Shahid, on America Online's Baha'i Faith Bulletin Board posted the following...." What may be expected from such a bahai community "leader" on AOL may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position" : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship1.htm Continuing AOL Censorship by bahais 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL2001.htm Those tired of Maneck posting her URL on AOL should see the relevant thread at Question to Community Leaders. Or call and complain at 800-827-6364. Also complain at Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, and then Ask the Staff, works well too. It goes over Maneck's head, as I was told on the phone. Incidentally, when you email the TOSGeneral from anywhere in bahai AOL space it in fact goes directly to Maneck, nobody else, which is again why you have to go around her now if you're tired of her manipulating TOS rules and employing her double standards on many fronts. SHE'S the TOSGeneral!! No wonder nothing results.... As a bahai for over 25 years, I'm very tired of her dishonest manipulation of AOL and wish AOL would replace her with an honest person who fairly allows all views to be heard. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 11:02 AM Subject: Re: bahai - FALSE Membership Statistics in India & Elsewhere Mr. Mahdi, You know I view much of this differently and cite again, as I have recently, my website Disclaimer: Given Abdu'l-Baha's respect for the individual's conscience and the frequent lack of it in everyday Bahai life, I must emphasize all ideas and opinions belong to their authors and do not necessarily reflect my views. Re: Maneck Over the phone and Notify AOL are the ONLY two ways available to go around her or over her head. I've been told that emailing the TOSGeneral is handled by HER!!! It may be Maneck and the fundamentalist bahais have a mole, in a sense, inside AOL who is protecting her/them, all the more reason to go around her.... Those tired of Maneck posting her URL on AOL should see the relevant thread at Question to Community Leaders, URLs, and General Discussion, My URL. Or call and complain at 800-827-6364. Also complain at Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, and then Ask the Staff, works well too. It goes over Maneck's head, as I was told on the phone. Incidentally, when you email the TOSGeneral from anywhere in bahai AOL space it in fact goes directly to Maneck, nobody else, which is again why you have to go around her now if you're tired of her manipulating TOS rules and employing her double standards on many fronts. SHE'S the TOSGeneral!! No wonder nothing results.... As a bahai for over 25 years, I'm very tired of her dishonest manipulation of AOL and wish AOL would replace her with an honest person who fairly allows all views to be heard. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mr Mahdi" wrote in message news:20011216064609.14821.00000497@mb-df.aol.com... > > BTW, have you called AOL and reported Maneck? Because I have no seen any > indication that she was relieved of her duty of being in charge of the bahai > message boards? Does AOL staff take your complaints seriously or anyone else > that complained to AOL about the injustice that goes on in its bahai Message > Board forum? I was just wondering.... ---------- From: SBoozie3@aol.com[SMTP:SBoozie3@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 11:55 PM To: f_glaysher@hotmail.com Subject: Thanks Dear Mr. Galysher My brother became active in the Baha'i Faith before the age of the Internet and it took a lot of searching to get the real story about this religion. Now all kinds of things pop up when you run a search on "Baha'i", nevertheless your web site stands out as an outstanding source of information. And its much more up to date than the traditional William McElwee Miller and Samuel Wilson books. I have come to the conclusion that the Baha'i Faith as it is currently administered is a cult. However there is nothing in the teachings that compels it to be so. The Baha'i Faith is whatever its people make it. If they choose to follow an "infallible" Universal House of Justice and all its teachings regarding covenant breakers and censorship so be it but much damage is done by going down that path. I guess what bothers me the most is their disregard for historical truth, especially the destruction of books and the rewriting of them so that what they say conforms with current teachings. I could never accept a religion that does this without informing its members that the text has been changed. It seems so dishonest. Anyway thanks for proclaiming the truth. Having met many Baha'is I can say that what attracts people to the Faith is the example of individual believers and their belief in Baha'u'llah. This is an argument that cannot be refuted. PHILLIP SHERWOOD ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 7:25 AM Subject: Re: bahai - FALSE Membership Statistics in India & Elsewhere Mr. Mahdi, Thanks for your clear comments. I've sent them on to Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, Ask the Staff (which goes around Maneck) and posted them under Question to Community Leaders. Indeed, calling AOL and reporting what Maneck and her underlings are doing on AOL is having an impact. Please consider doing so at 800-827-6364. Thanks again, -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mr Mahdi" wrote in message news:20011217055942.03844.00000461@mb-cq.aol.com... > >It may be Maneck and the fundamentalist bahais > >have a mole, in a sense, inside AOL who is protecting her/them, all the > >more reason to go around her.... > > That is one of the reasons why I have yet to call AOL and report to them what > goes on in the bahai message boards. I see calling them an exercise in > futility and unfortunately that made me skeptical into thinking calling will do > any change. > > It is also unfortunate that AOL does not have a system where members of AOL can > vote for people whom they want to see moderate their message boards and other > forums. You, me, and many people for the past several years have been > harrassed by the coward bahai extremists. Recently, one of my messages was > removed by the fanatic Maneck using the anonymous handle "Shahid." "Shahid," > aka Maneck refuses to use her real name when moderating posts, something that > the busta Mark Foster wouldn't even do (he as you know made it clear he was the > moderator). > > May you Fred or someone else here can find a way to convince AOL to have a > third party or a fair-minded person on AOL to investigate the matter and see > the double-standard and outright hypocrisy of the bahai extremist domination of > bahai forums on AOL. Because with taking this course, complaining to AOL will > become something done in vain, unfortunately. > > Mahdi Muhammad ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 7:35 AM Subject: Re: bahai - FALSE Membership Statistics in India & Elsewhere It's her "hikmat" or wisdom or dissimulation, see Susan Maneck's :"Wisdom and Dissimulation: The Use and Meaning of Hikmat in the Baha'i Writings and History." For a Muslim perspective on Bahai dissimulation, see Amir Butler on ""Taqaiya" On H-Bahai: The Practice of Taqiyyah (Dissimulation) in the Babi and Bahai Religions by Sepehr Manuchehri BASICALLY, hikmat as interpreted by Maneck means she may lie and deceive all she wants in "service" of the faith..... It's her modus operandi.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mr Mahdi" wrote in message news:20011217060855.03844.00000462@mb-cq.aol.com... > >Because with taking this course,... > > Of course I meant "without" but at any rate, I would like to ask Maneck why she > doesn't use her real name or admit who she is when it comes to her role as > "forum leader" on the bahai message boards? I mean, Mark Foster made it clear > who he was and what he did. You, on the other hand do not. Tell me why. > > Is this a new or an old bahai technique of using anonymity to do some devious > deeds? > > Mahdi Muhammad ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 7:57 AM Subject: Re: AOL - Maneck's fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards You're a liar. You deleted the message I'm referring to. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011216183619.12937.00000514@mb-cu.aol.com... > >> Actually, someone on the Board was rather annoyed that I reposed Fred's > >spam. > > > >"Reposed"? Euphemism for deleted, suppressed.... > > Or maybe responded? That post is still up there. > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 8:04 AM Subject: BeliefNet.com - Baha'i Faith Challenge & Critique BeliefNet.com - Baha'i Faith Challenge & Critique Some may be interested in looking in on BeliefNet.com https://www.beliefnet.com discussion boards, especially the one titled Baha'i Faith Challenge & Critique. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 8:42 AM Subject: Maneck & Hikmat Susan Maneck has a very long and complicated history of censorship and coercion on behalf of her fundamentalist interpretations of the bahai writings. Please see Professor Juan Cole's extensive comments below on her along with Paul Dodenhoff. Many other insights into her behavior may be found around this website written by many other people. For what Bahais call "hikmat" or wisdom or dissimulation, see Susan Maneck's :"Wisdom and Dissimulation: The Use and Meaning of Hikmat in the Baha'i Writings and History." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: Glaysh112001@aol.com[SMTP:Glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 9:39 AM To: SteveCase@aol.com Cc: Glaysh112001@aol.com; FG@home.com Subject: Bahai Message Board Community Leader I'm emailing Steve Case because it's proving impossible to get the attention of anyone at AOL other than your form responses from the TOSGeneral that refer me back to the community leader, WHO IS THE PROBLEM and IS UNFAIRLY MANIPULATING TOS RULES!!! The community leader of the bahai message boards, Shahid or Susan Maneck, is regularly TOSing more liberal-minded people for posting URLs while posting dozens of copies of her URL to her own fundamentalist website. As I mentioned, I and other liberal-minded bahais believe this volunteer leader regularly abuses her position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom she and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. This has gone on FOR YEARS on AOL. AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, such as Susan Maneck, to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views she opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... I'm only asking for fairness! IF we shouldn't post URLs, neither should she! She has now turned it into a "policy" permitting her to judge what is in "keeping with the Board purpose" while suppressing anyone who disagrees with her. See all of the examples below, scattered all over the bahai message boards. I have extensive documentation of censorship on AOL available on my website, probably more a couple of megabytes worth stretching back for at least three years. See below. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ DOCUMENTATION of abuse of AOL: "Recently, Dr. Maneck, A.K.A. LDRS LFST, Shahid, on America Online's Baha'i Faith Bulletin Board posted the following...." What may be expected from such a bahai community "leader" on AOL may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position" : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship1.htm Continuing AOL Censorship by bahais 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL2001.htm Those tired of Maneck posting her URL on AOL should see the relevant thread at Question to Community Leaders. Or call and complain at 800-827-6364. Also complain at Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, and then Ask the Staff, works well too. It goes over Maneck's head, as I was told on the phone. Incidentally, when you email the TOSGeneral from anywhere in bahai AOL space it in fact goes directly to Maneck, nobody else, which is again why you have to go around her now if you're tired of her manipulating TOS rules and employing her double standards on many fronts. SHE'S the TOSGeneral!! No wonder nothing results.... As a bahai for over 25 years, I'm very tired of her dishonest manipulation of AOL and wish AOL would replace her with an honest person who fairly allows all views to be heard. 1. (below from AOL member mrmahdi@aol.com Mr Mahdi) >It may be Maneck and the fundamentalist bahais >have a mole, in a sense, inside AOL who is protecting her/them, all the >more reason to go around her.... That is one of the reasons why I have yet to call AOL and report to them what goes on in the bahai message boards. I see calling them an exercise in futility and unfortunately that made me skeptical into thinking calling will do any change. It is also unfortunate that AOL does not have a system where members of AOL can vote for people whom they want to see moderate their message boards and other forums. You, me, and many people for the past several years have been harrassed by the coward bahai extremists. Recently, one of my messages was removed by the fanatic Maneck using the anonymous handle "Shahid." "Shahid," aka Maneck refuses to use her real name when moderating posts, something that the busta Mark Foster wouldn't even do (he as you know made it clear he was the moderator). May you Fred or someone else here can find a way to convince AOL to have a third party or a fair-minded person on AOL to investigate the matter and see the double-standard and outright hypocrisy of the bahai extremist domination of bahai forums on AOL. Because with taking this course, complaining to AOL will become something done in vain, unfortunately. Mahdi Muhammad --- Please do something to STOP the continual suppression of discussion here on AOL by Susan Maneck. Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience 2. >BASICALLY, hikmat as interpreted by Maneck means she may lie and deceive all >she wants in "service" of the faith..... It's her modus operandi.... Yes, her fanatical interpretation of "hikmat" has made her into a wolf in sheep's clothing. I that believe as a result, her and Mark Foster's bullying on the bahai message boards has led to people to leave the message boards in utter disgust of the double-standards and "good-ole' boy" system they got going on there where certain people have carte blanche while others (like me and you) do not. You Fred have documented on your site instances of outright double-standards employed by Foster and Maneck. I would like to ask you kindly to post in a new message to newsgroups and elsewhere the quotes of AOL members as well as others who complained and documented the double-standard and hypocrisy of Foster and Maneck and their extremist supporters. Forgive me for sound a bit pessimistic, but the I went through on the AOL bahai message boards have made me feel hopeless into thinking that fighting for rights on AOL will do any good. Maybe if we constantly remind AOL staff by either calling them or sending them emails about what goes on, then perhaps there will be a chance that justice will prevail. Hopefully something will be done and AOL will be heedful of our complaints and warnings. Mahdi Muhammad 3. >Forgive me for sound a bit pessimistic, but the I went through "Forgive me for sounding a bit pessimistic, but the experience I went through..." (I got a bad habit of not proofreading my posts!) At any rate, I would like to add that I know that the fanatical behavior of the "forum leaders" on AOL bahai message boards has led to not only people leaving, but having suspended and cancelled accounts over messages that do not contain profanity, slander, threats, spamming and so on. I have talked to people in chat rooms on AOL about members have their accounts terminated over posts that do not contain the above-mentioned things. Many of them thought I was lying or at least exaggerating because they thought it was too crazy to be true. Thanks to the bahai extremist domination on AOL bahai message boards, even the unbelievable has become a reality! Mahdi Muhammad ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 9:41 AM To: Mr Mahdi Subject: Re: bahai - FALSE Membership Statistics in India & Elsewhere Mr Mahdi, I urge you to email Steve Case yourself from your AOL account too. Just sent below. Fred Subj: Bahai Message Board Community Leader Date: 12/19/2001 9:39:19 AM Eastern Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 To: Steve Case CC: Glaysh112001, FG@home.com I'm emailing Steve Case because it's proving impossible to get the attention of anyone at AOL other than your form responses from the TOSGeneral that refer me back to the community leader, WHO IS THE PROBLEM and IS UNFAIRLY MANIPULATING TOS RULES!!! The community leader of the bahai message boards, Shahid or Susan Maneck, is regularly TOSing more liberal-minded people for posting URLs while posting dozens of copies of her URL to her own fundamentalist website. As I mentioned, I and other liberal-minded bahais believe this volunteer leader regularly abuses her position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom she and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. This has gone on FOR YEARS on AOL. AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, such as Susan Maneck, to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views she opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... I'm only asking for fairness! IF we shouldn't post URLs, neither should she! She has now turned it into a "policy" permitting her to judge what is in "keeping with the Board purpose" while suppressing anyone who disagrees with her. See all of the examples below, scattered all over the bahai message boards. I have extensive documentation of censorship on AOL available on my website, probably more a couple of megabytes worth stretching back for at least three years. See below. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ DOCUMENTATION of abuse of AOL: "Recently, Dr. Maneck, A.K.A. LDRS LFST, Shahid, on America Online's Baha'i Faith Bulletin Board posted the following...." What may be expected from such a bahai community "leader" on AOL may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position" : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship1.htm Continuing AOL Censorship by bahais 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL2001.htm Those tired of Maneck posting her URL on AOL should see the relevant thread at Question to Community Leaders. Or call and complain at 800-827-6364. Also complain at Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, and then Ask the Staff, works well too. It goes over Maneck's head, as I was told on the phone. Incidentally, when you email the TOSGeneral from anywhere in bahai AOL space it in fact goes directly to Maneck, nobody else, which is again why you have to go around her now if you're tired of her manipulating TOS rules and employing her double standards on many fronts. SHE'S the TOSGeneral!! No wonder nothing results.... As a bahai for over 25 years, I'm very tired of her dishonest manipulation of AOL and wish AOL would replace her with an honest person who fairly allows all views to be heard. 1. (below from AOL member mrmahdi@aol.com Mr Mahdi) >It may be Maneck and the fundamentalist bahais >have a mole, in a sense, inside AOL who is protecting her/them, all the >more reason to go around her.... That is one of the reasons why I have yet to call AOL and report to them what goes on in the bahai message boards. I see calling them an exercise in futility and unfortunately that made me skeptical into thinking calling will do any change. It is also unfortunate that AOL does not have a system where members of AOL can vote for people whom they want to see moderate their message boards and other forums. You, me, and many people for the past several years have been harrassed by the coward bahai extremists. Recently, one of my messages was removed by the fanatic Maneck using the anonymous handle "Shahid." "Shahid," aka Maneck refuses to use her real name when moderating posts, something that the busta Mark Foster wouldn't even do (he as you know made it clear he was the moderator). May you Fred or someone else here can find a way to convince AOL to have a third party or a fair-minded person on AOL to investigate the matter and see the double-standard and outright hypocrisy of the bahai extremist domination of bahai forums on AOL. Because with taking this course, complaining to AOL will become something done in vain, unfortunately. Mahdi Muhammad --- Please do something to STOP the continual suppression of discussion here on AOL by Susan Maneck. Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience 2. >BASICALLY, hikmat as interpreted by Maneck means she may lie and deceive all >she wants in "service" of the faith..... It's her modus operandi.... Yes, her fanatical interpretation of "hikmat" has made her into a wolf in sheep's clothing. I that believe as a result, her and Mark Foster's bullying on the bahai message boards has led to people to leave the message boards in utter disgust of the double-standards and "good-ole' boy" system they got going on there where certain people have carte blanche while others (like me and you) do not. You Fred have documented on your site instances of outright double-standards employed by Foster and Maneck. I would like to ask you kindly to post in a new message to newsgroups and elsewhere the quotes of AOL members as well as others who complained and documented the double-standard and hypocrisy of Foster and Maneck and their extremist supporters. Forgive me for sound a bit pessimistic, but the I went through on the AOL bahai message boards have made me feel hopeless into thinking that fighting for rights on AOL will do any good. Maybe if we constantly remind AOL staff by either calling them or sending them emails about what goes on, then perhaps there will be a chance that justice will prevail. Hopefully something will be done and AOL will be heedful of our complaints and warnings. Mahdi Muhammad 3. >Forgive me for sound a bit pessimistic, but the I went through "Forgive me for sounding a bit pessimistic, but the experience I went through..." (I got a bad habit of not proofreading my posts!) At any rate, I would like to add that I know that the fanatical behavior of the "forum leaders" on AOL bahai message boards has led to not only people leaving, but having suspended and cancelled accounts over messages that do not contain profanity, slander, threats, spamming and so on. I have talked to people in chat rooms on AOL about members have their accounts terminated over posts that do not contain the above-mentioned things. Many of them thought I was lying or at least exaggerating because they thought it was too crazy to be true. Thanks to the bahai extremist domination on AOL bahai message boards, even the unbelievable has become a reality! Mahdi Muhammad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mr Mahdi" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 5:13 PM Subject: Re: bahai - FALSE Membership Statistics in India & Elsewhere > >Forgive me for sound a bit pessimistic, but the I went through > > "Forgive me for sounding a bit pessimistic, but the experience I went > through..." (I got a bad habit of not proofreading my posts!) > > At any rate, I would like to add that I know that the fanatical behavior of the > "forum leaders" on AOL bahai message boards has led to not only people leaving, > but having suspended and cancelled accounts over messages that do not contain > profanity, slander, threats, spamming and so on. I have talked to people in > chat rooms on AOL about members have their accounts terminated over posts that > do not contain the above-mentioned things. Many of them thought I was lying or > at least exaggerating because they thought it was too crazy to be true. > > Thanks to the bahai extremist domination on AOL bahai message boards, even the > unbelievable has become a reality! > > Mahdi Muhammad ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 9:54 AM Subject: Re: AOL - Maneck's fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards Maneck's fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards "Recently, Dr. Maneck, A.K.A. LDRS LFST, Shahid, on America Online's Baha'i Faith Bulletin Board posted the following...." What may be expected from such a bahai community "leader" on AOL may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position" : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship1.htm Continuing AOL Censorship by bahais 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL2001.htm Those tired of Maneck posting her URL on AOL should see the relevant thread at Question to Community Leaders. Or call and complain at 800-827-6364. Also complain at Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, and then Ask the Staff, works well too. It goes over Maneck's head, as I was told on the phone. Similarly, email "Steve Case" from an AOL account, stevecase@aol.com Incidentally, when you email the TOSGeneral from anywhere in bahai AOL space it in fact goes directly to Maneck, nobody else, so I was told by an AOL representative, which is again why you have to go around her now if you're tired of her manipulating TOS rules and employing her double standards on many fronts. SHE'S the TOSGeneral!! No wonder nothing results.... As a bahai for over 25 years, I'm very tired of her dishonest manipulation of AOL and wish AOL would replace her with an honest person who fairly allows all views to be heard. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:fredglaysher@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 10:05 AM To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Bahai Message Boards Community Leader An AOL representative on the phone recommended I write Customer Service about the issue below. I'm writing Steve Case and Customer Service because it's proving impossible to get the attention of anyone at AOL other than your form responses from the TOSGeneral that refer me back to the community leader, WHO IS THE PROBLEM and IS UNFAIRLY MANIPULATING TOS RULES!!! The community leader of the bahai message boards, Shahid or Susan Maneck, is regularly TOSing more liberal-minded people for posting URLs while posting dozens of copies of her URL to her own fundamentalist website. As I mentioned, I and other liberal-minded bahais believe this volunteer leader regularly abuses her position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom she and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. This has gone on FOR YEARS on AOL. AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, such as Susan Maneck, to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views she opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... I'm only asking for fairness! IF we shouldn't post URLs, neither should she! She has now turned it into a "policy" permitting her to judge what is in "keeping with the Board purpose" while suppressing anyone who disagrees with her. See all of the examples below, scattered all over the bahai message boards. I have extensive documentation of censorship on AOL available on my website, probably more a couple of megabytes worth stretching back for at least three years. See below. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ DOCUMENTATION of abuse of AOL: "Recently, Dr. Maneck, A.K.A. LDRS LFST, Shahid, on America Online's Baha'i Faith Bulletin Board posted the following...." What may be expected from such a bahai community "leader" on AOL may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position" : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship1.htm Continuing AOL Censorship by bahais 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL2001.htm Those tired of Maneck posting her URL on AOL should see the relevant thread at Question to Community Leaders. Or call and complain at 800-827-6364. Also complain at Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, and then Ask the Staff, works well too. It goes over Maneck's head, as I was told on the phone. Incidentally, when you email the TOSGeneral from anywhere in bahai AOL space it in fact goes directly to Maneck, nobody else, which is again why you have to go around her now if you're tired of her manipulating TOS rules and employing her double standards on many fronts. SHE'S the TOSGeneral!! No wonder nothing results.... As a bahai for over 25 years, I'm very tired of her dishonest manipulation of AOL and wish AOL would replace her with an honest person who fairly allows all views to be heard. 1. (below from AOL member mrmahdi@aol.com Mr Mahdi) >It may be Maneck and the fundamentalist bahais >have a mole, in a sense, inside AOL who is protecting her/them, all the >more reason to go around her.... That is one of the reasons why I have yet to call AOL and report to them what goes on in the bahai message boards. I see calling them an exercise in futility and unfortunately that made me skeptical into thinking calling will do any change. It is also unfortunate that AOL does not have a system where members of AOL can vote for people whom they want to see moderate their message boards and other forums. You, me, and many people for the past several years have been harrassed by the coward bahai extremists. Recently, one of my messages was removed by the fanatic Maneck using the anonymous handle "Shahid." "Shahid," aka Maneck refuses to use her real name when moderating posts, something that the busta Mark Foster wouldn't even do (he as you know made it clear he was the moderator). May you Fred or someone else here can find a way to convince AOL to have a third party or a fair-minded person on AOL to investigate the matter and see the double-standard and outright hypocrisy of the bahai extremist domination of bahai forums on AOL. Because with taking this course, complaining to AOL will become something done in vain, unfortunately. Mahdi Muhammad --- Please do something to STOP the continual suppression of discussion here on AOL by Susan Maneck. Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience 2. >BASICALLY, hikmat as interpreted by Maneck means she may lie and deceive all >she wants in "service" of the faith..... It's her modus operandi.... Yes, her fanatical interpretation of "hikmat" has made her into a wolf in sheep's clothing. I that believe as a result, her and Mark Foster's bullying on the bahai message boards has led to people to leave the message boards in utter disgust of the double-standards and "good-ole' boy" system they got going on there where certain people have carte blanche while others (like me and you) do not. You Fred have documented on your site instances of outright double-standards employed by Foster and Maneck. I would like to ask you kindly to post in a new message to newsgroups and elsewhere the quotes of AOL members as well as others who complained and documented the double-standard and hypocrisy of Foster and Maneck and their extremist supporters. Forgive me for sound a bit pessimistic, but the I went through on the AOL bahai message boards have made me feel hopeless into thinking that fighting for rights on AOL will do any good. Maybe if we constantly remind AOL staff by either calling them or sending them emails about what goes on, then perhaps there will be a chance that justice will prevail. Hopefully something will be done and AOL will be heedful of our complaints and warnings. Mahdi Muhammad 3. >Forgive me for sound a bit pessimistic, but the I went through "Forgive me for sounding a bit pessimistic, but the experience I went through..." (I got a bad habit of not proofreading my posts!) At any rate, I would like to add that I know that the fanatical behavior of the "forum leaders" on AOL bahai message boards has led to not only people leaving, but having suspended and cancelled accounts over messages that do not contain profanity, slander, threats, spamming and so on. I have talked to people in chat rooms on AOL about members have their accounts terminated over posts that do not contain the above-mentioned things. Many of them thought I was lying or at least exaggerating because they thought it was too crazy to be true. Thanks to the bahai extremist domination on AOL bahai message boards, even the unbelievable has become a reality! Mahdi Muhammad ---------- From: MrMahdi@aol.com[SMTP:MrMahdi@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 3:40 PM To: patrick_henry@liberty.com Cc: Glaysh112001@aol.com; FG@home.com Subject: Re: bahai - FALSE Membership Statistics in India & Elsewhere Greetings Fred, Thank you for collecting relevant quotes so that I can send them to the people who need to review the complaints in order to take decisive action against the fanatic Maneck. Hopefully, this time, AOL will heed our complaints! Fred, I wondered if you considered suing AOL for not allowing you, me and other members of AOL the service that it deserves due to the allowance of extremists like Maneck who manipulates the bahai message board on AOL to promote your dogmatic agenda. If you recall, certain former (and I think current) members of AOL sued AOL because it wouldn't give them the right to enjoy the chat rooms without harrassment from those who came to disrupt them with hateful speech and attacks against their religion and people. AOL has TOS rules that were never or hardly enforced in these chat rooms. Here is an article for reference if you want to know more about the case: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22150-2001Aug30.html Thanks once again for the generous help. Peace, Mahdi Muhammad ---------- From: Glaysh112001[SMTP:glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 4:19 PM To: FG@home.com; SteveCase@aol.com; TOSGeneral@aol.com Subject: Re: ATTN - AOL - Result of Censorship by Maneck Mr. Mahdi, I suggest you email Steve Case@aol.com, post this to Notfify AOL, and snail mail a copy to AOL Customer Service, PO Box 10810, Herdon VA 20170. The number to call to complain is 800-827-6364. For those interested, I believe Mr. Mahdi's statements here under the bahai message boards at Question to Community Leaders>ATTN - AOL - Result of Censorshare essentially correct. I witnessed Shahid/Susan Maneck's unfair treatment of people of all persuasions on AOL and elsewhere for years. Extensive documentation may be found on my website about Maneck's abuse of her AOL position and her driving many, many people out of these forums. Thanks for trying to oppose her tyranny here. Perhaps someday someone at AOL will listen before they're sued over the censorship she has imposed in their name! Frederick Glaysher >Subject: Re: ATTN - AOL - Result of Censorship by Maneck >Date: 12/19/2001 3:54 PM Eastern Standard Time >From: Mr Mahdi >Message-id: <20011219155440.01439.00000028@mb-mk.aol.com> > > >>Well, well, Freddy, I see you've made an interesting bed-fellow with "Death >>to Baha'is" Muslim militant, Mr. Madhi. > >Dr. Maneck and has committed slander as well as mocked my name, both I take >it are not allowed under TOS. > >I have not advocated the death of any group, including bahais. I have made >it clear many times on the Internet in newsgroups such as TRB that I have >many bahai friends. My beliefs advocate the FREE discussion of beliefs and >the promotion of having forums where people can express and debate their >beliefs with other individuals. The alleged statement that Maneck claimed I >made was taken out of context when the topic of apostasy was discussed in a >chat room. Maneck should not feel that since she is also a forum leader >here, she can slander fellow members with impunity. > >Also, my handle is "Mr Mahdi" not Mr. "Madhi." It is obvious that "Madhi" is >an attempt to mock my name by insisting I am "mad." I would like an apology >and the removal of Maneck's post. > >>Try and keep the white powder off the board though, would you? >>warmest, Susan > >I find this tasteless, especially for a "forum leader." Maneck, are you >making light of the recent use of anthrax as a tool of terrorism? Please >clarify for us your statements! >Mahdi Muhammad > > > > > > Frederick Glaysher
Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 4:44 PM Subject: Talisman 9 Karen, Would you post info in this thread on how those interested in Talisman 9 might find it or apply for admission? Not for myself, don't worry! But others might be wondering. Feel free to post my URL there if you think anyone might find it of interest. Best, -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Karen Bacquet" wrote in message news:u21sin5ksmlp51@corp.supernews.com... > Hi, guys! > > Not much to say today, but since y'all have so kindly been wondering where > I've been, I thought I'd stop by and say hello. > > > > > There are over 200 subscribed to Talisman 9 at the moment. Karen's > > "Unenrolled Bahai" has I think around 50 << > > Unenrolled Baha'i stands at 49 right now. I was a bit worried if the list > would fly when I first started, but I have no problem at all attracting > subscribers. It is also growing less dependent upon my input, and members > are becoming a real support group to each other. There's a whole lot of > disillusioned Baha'is out there, folks, who have never heard of Juan Cole, > or ever seen Fred Glaysher's web page. I have a fantasy that all those > inactive and alienated people show up one day at Unit Convention and make > their voices heard. They'd swamp the place if they did. > > > > > > The essential business of war is the ability to cut through the > > smokescreen of disinformation to assess the damage inflicted on the > > enemy by one's operations. That is a complicated and complex > > business. In assessing the effect of Bahai Wars on the AO one has to > > learn to read the subtext. For example the UK NSA used to publish the > > names and numbers of new additions to the flock as well as the > > withdrawals. It hasn't done so for many moons past.<< > > One thing I noted was the statistics that they keep in the church page of my > annual almanac -- once upon a time they published LSAs, which was 1750, as > the number of congregations. Oddly, a few years ago, this number jumped to > over 8,000, which, I suppose is the number of localities, which includes > groups and isolated believers. What this tells me is that the number of > LSAs in this country has dropped significantly. I'd really like a hard > statistic on that if anyone's got one. > > > > > > >Nima (alas he has left the groups for the > > >time being) > > > is virulent, but backed up with sources. Karen and Melissa are > > always worth a > > > read. > > > > Dare one disagree with so cogent a point?,, > > Thanks, guys. I need a balm to my ego. I've just been recently accused of > "double-think" and "incoherence". Not by anybody I should care about, but > I'm thinner-skinned than I ought to be for somebody out in cyberspace. > > > >Even > > poor old Karen has been accused there of being a Violator and Covenant > > Breaker!<< > > I have also just been accused of single-handedly orchestrating the entire > Religious Debate fiasco. Not only did I have the moderator of that list in > my pocket, but sent my lapdogs, Nima, Paul, and even Juan, to that list to > do my evil bidding. (Hey, they didn't mention you, Dermod. How did you > manage to escape that?) Exactly how I got myself promoted to that status, I > haven't a clue. If I'm going to be the object of someone's paranoid > fantasies, I'd rather it be a Baha'i fundamentalist, where I can at least > understand why I'm hated. Maybe I'll go over to Beliefnet . . . > > Love, Karen > > > ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 4:59 PM To: Yorgos Marinakis Subject: Suing AOL Yorgos, Would you consider taking on a case against AOL? See link below. https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22150-2001Aug30.html There's extensive documentation on my website about Maneck's abuse of AOL's TOS rules and censorship of liberals and others. See in the left column of my homepage. I have many, many messages attempting to contact AOL which they have always ignored, while she continues to TOS me and others, driving different views off the bahai message boards. I know a number of people share my grievances with AOL and have also not received any response from them. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 7:17 AM Subject: bahai - Re: UNO-BP-011219-1-IRANRESOLUTION-144-S "They desire only their rights under the International Bill of Human Rights, of which Iran is a signatory, including the right to life, the right to profess and practice their religion, the right to liberty ALL of which is DENIED by the "universal" house of "justice" to MEMBERS of the bahai faith who live in the United States of America and elsewhere, outside Iran....... Contemptible hypocrites.... "The nature of the persecution is clearly based on > religious belief," she continued. "Baha'is have repeatedly > been offered relief from persecution if they were prepared > to recant their Faith. Just as is the PERSECUTION by the "universal" house of "justice" of MEMBERS of the bahai faith in the United States of America and elsewhere for EXPRESSING their IDEAS on the Internet, here on talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere.... Contemptible hypocrites.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Graham Sorenson" wrote in message news:EabU7.77874$Wd.21880483@news1.rdc1.az.home.com... > UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY AGAIN EXPRESSES CONCERN OVER CONTINUING > DISCRIMINATION AGAINST IRAN'S BAHA'IS > > UNITED NATIONS, 19 December 2001 (BWNS) -- UNITED NATIONS, 19 December 2001 > (BWNS) -- For the 16th > time in 17 years, the United Nations General Assembly has > expressed "concern" over human rights violations in Iran, > specifically noting the "still-existing discrimination" > against the Baha'i community of Iran. > > By a vote of 72 to 49, with 46 abstentions, the Assembly > passed a resolution on 19 December 2001 that calls on the > Islamic Republic of Iran to "eliminate all forms of > discrimination based on religious grounds" and, more > specifically, asks the Iranian Government to fully > implement previous United Nations recommendations that the > Baha'is be granted complete freedom to practice their > religion. > > The resolution followed a report issued in August by the UN > Human Rights Commission's special representative on Iran, > Professor Maurice Copithorne, that indicated that the > 300,000-member Iranian Baha'i community continues to > experience discrimination in the areas of education, > employment, travel, housing and the practice of religious > activities. > > More specifically, Prof. Copithorne said that Baha'i > property continues to be subject to confiscation. He > indicated that a number of Baha'i families were forced to > leave their homes and farmlands in the first months of 2001 > in Kata, Buyr-Ahmand. In 2000, he said, information was > received that four buildings were confiscated in Tehran, > three in Shiraz and one in Isfahan. > > "It is also reported that the issuance of business licenses > to Baha'is has been delayed and that some stores and > business owned by Baha'is have been closed," said Prof. > Copithorne. > > Prof. Copithorne also said that Baha'is continue to be > denied access to higher education in legally recognized > public institutions. "Recently three classrooms used by the > Baha'is for their own educational purposes were seized," he > said. > > "Baha'is are still, in effect, prevented from participation > in religious gatherings or educational activities," wrote > Prof. Copithorne. > > In its resolution, the Assembly decided to continue > monitoring Iran next year, "paying particular attention to > further developments, including the situation of the > Baha'is and other minority groups." > > Since the Islamic Revolutionary regime took power in Iran > in 1979, Baha'is have been harassed and persecuted solely > on account of their religious beliefs. More than 200 > Baha'is have been killed, hundreds have been imprisoned, > and thousands have been deprived of jobs, education or > property. In 1983, all Baha'i institutions were banned, and > they remain officially closed. > > Although the number of executions and imprisonments has > lessened in recent years, Baha'is in Iran remain without > any official recognition or legal protection that might > protect them from discrimination, said Bani Dugal, a Baha'i > International Community representative to the United > Nations. > > "We see these on-going actions -- the imprisonment of > Baha'is, the confiscation of property, the deprivation of > education, the restrictions on travel and worship, and the > banning of Baha'i institutions -- as evidence of the > continuing campaign of the government of Iran to strangle > the Baha'i community of that country," said Ms. Dugal. > > "The nature of the persecution is clearly based on > religious belief," she continued. "Baha'is have repeatedly > been offered relief from persecution if they were prepared > to recant their Faith. > > "So Baha'is continue to be viewed as 'unprotected > infidels,' by the Government, without any form of legal > protection, even though Iran is a signatory of the > International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights which > guarantees freedom of religious belief. > > "The Baha'is seek no special privileges," Ms. Dugal > said. "They desire only their rights under the > International Bill of Human Rights, of which Iran is a > signatory, including the right to life, the right to > profess and practice their religion, the right to liberty > and security of person, and the right to education and > work." > > > -- > UNO-BP-011219-1-IRANRESOLUTION-144-S > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > Advance release: Please check our website for the final version of this > article. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > Copyright 2001 by the Baha'i World News Service. All stories and photographs > produced by the Bah' World News Service may be freely reprinted, re-emailed, > re-posted to the World Wide Web and otherwise reproduced by any individual > or > organization as long as they are attributed to the Bah' World News Service . > For more information, visit https://www.bahaiworldnews.org. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > If you have questions about this list or wish to unsubscribe, contact > subscribe@bahaiworldnews.org > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > > > > -- > Graham Sorenson > https://TheGuideToAromatherapy.com > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 7:48 AM Subject: The Bahai Technique - Demonize, Discredit, Smear, Slander, Shun, Revile, Suppress, Attack, Bully, Intimidate, Threaten, Malign, Blackball, Coerce, Silence, Harass... etc., etc.... The Bahai Technique - Demonize, Discredit, Smear, Slander, Shun, Revile, Suppress, Attack, Bully, Intimidate, Threaten, Malign, Blackball, Coerce, Silence, Harass... etc., etc.... ------------------------------------------------------------------ During the last several years a number of observers have noted common methods many fundamentalist Bahais use to avoid various issues or discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Dermod Ryder, September 19, 2001: "And then Eureka! I realised why Fred gets the treatment he does . . . for Fred has painstakingly not only assembled the evidence of the canker within but he constantly publicises it to the extent that he really gets up noses and AO noses at that! . . . I basically agree with him that the AO terrorises people - terror is more than bombs or kamikaze aircraft. A whispered aside in the right circumstances can instil terror (like a threat to be made a CB) - most ethnic cleansing is carried out by a piece of "good" advice to the effect that one would be better off NOT living in this neighbourhood, from a gentleman who is known or assumed to have the "right connections" to ensure the advice is heeded. Twenty years ago the AO tried that particular threatening tactic on with me and were told where they could stick it! Others can also testify to that including Dennis Rogers whose experiences were posted on TRB recently. And you guys hate Fred for this, for his continued exposing of the sewer that the AO has become. Of course you all hate Juan, Alison, Michael, Nima etc as well and for the same reason and give them the same treatment but somewhat reduced for they don't post as much as Fred who is just a real pain in the butt for doing what he does so well! Fred is an avid counter terrorist and he's good at it as the whimpering from the BIGS proves!" https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Ryder2001.htm Mr Mahdi, November 14, 2000: "The extremism of those who are trying to get Fred Glaysher off the Internet is beyond any rational justification, for the simple fact that Fred does not use any lewd or obscene language nor does he post irrelevant topics that are not worthy of discussion. Bahais seem to be so obsessed at maintaining their superficial "progressive" image that anything that exposes the . . . hypocrisy of the bahai faith are suppressed and attacked, in order for the bahais to keep deceiving people into thinking that these are unwarranted and baseless attacks and accusations which hold no weight in reality." Professor Juan Cole, University of Michigan, June 12, 1998: "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified threats of declaring him or her a CB [Covenant Breaker (heretic)] to silence the individual, and if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the gullibility of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket." "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization ostensibly committed to tolerance!" https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole10.htm Professor Juan Cole, February 23, 1999: "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from enrolled Baha'isor when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon them to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do not fall silent." "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech about the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You will note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long-term heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose with the facts,' and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused of all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been backbitten by them." "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute." "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five years. He can explain it to you." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole71.htm Frederick Glaysher, May 12, 1992: "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [since 1976]. The usual stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the Truth." https://fglaysher.com/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm Ron House, November 14, 1997: "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so much he says something intemperate, then point out how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this technique works, so I've been making a conscious effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. At any other time, they would overlook faults, as Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode they go for the jugular.Very sad." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/House2.htm Fran Baker, May 1998: "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a groupacts this way. Very scary." Frederick Glaysher, June 1998: "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to talk.religion.bahai." K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in their condemnations of their fellow believers, I would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not character assassination by innuendo, what is?" https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Johnson18.htm Gibro28W, October 12, 1998:"In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out as "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs of its members in the first place."https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb73.htm David Langness, 31 Mar 1997: "I would advise you to be careful about any meetings, calls or correspondence with Hoda Mahmoudi, who used to be an ABM here in Southern California. She is quite conservative, and sees herself -- as do many of the appointed branch, sadly -- as a staunch defender of the Faith and the faithful, able and more than willing to marginalize people like you and I to discredit our ideas. This cultlike practice of shunning and casting out any dissidents has unfortunately become the chief tactic of those fundamentalist Baha'is bent on maintaining the current leadership. My worry is that the more progressive Baha'is like Juan Cole and Steve Scholl and yourself will all leave the Faith and thereby increase the power of the conservatives." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Langness.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------- Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Johnson21.htm And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb65.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------- This document at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 7:40 AM Subject: Re: Dermod=Fred? Who else is missing? Dermod, To correct the record, which certain fundamentalists distort in order to slander me, while I completed all requirements for a doctoral degree, I *chose* not to write a dissertation, and eventually *chose* to resign from university teaching. My bio note suggests why on both counts: https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm For the non-bahai observer looking in, this whole thread reveals yet again that bahai fundamentalists are truly only interested in slandering, discrediting, and maligning people of conscience. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Dermod=Fred? Who else is missing? You're a liar and a slanderer.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011221175742.05616.00001945@mb-fo.aol.com... > >To correct the record, which certain fundamentalists distort in > >order to slander me, while I completed all requirements for a > >doctoral degree, I *chose* not to write a dissertation, > > Really? I seem to recall you representing yourself as having a PhD in the past. > > > >n, and > >eventually *chose* to resign from university teaching. > > University teaching? Choice? Here is what is in one of your letters on your > website: > > "I've been denied tenure, such as it is, at this mediocre community college. > The denial of tenure also resulted in what would have been a loan on our first > house falling through." > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm > > >For the non-bahai observer looking in, this whole thread > >reveals yet again that bahai fundamentalists are truly only > >interested in slandering, discrediting, and maligning people > >of conscience. > > I think you just discredited yourself, Freddy. Be careful what you say to > people who can read a text. ;-} > > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 9:38 AM Subject: Re: Dermod=Fred? Who else is missing? What may be expected from such "bahai scholars" may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position" : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship1.htm Continuing AOL Censorship by bahais March 2001+ https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL2001.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 9:47 AM Subject: Re: Susan, I found your long lost relatives/Maneck sends virus to Baha'iAngst This is simple the way in which Maneck and other bahai fundamentalists operate. I too received the same virus from her about the same time. Her explanation of a badtrans virus using her address book is nothing more than plausible deniability.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "American Bahai" wrote in message news:20011225173029.13583.00001910@mb-fq.aol.com... > Dear Freethought: > > Why would I of all people get a virus from Susan Maneck, unless she targeted me > deliberately? > > I've already posted the notice about receiving the virus to > talk.religion.bahai. > > FYI, here is the routing information, showing who sent it: > > From : "Susan Maneck" <_smaneck@jam.rr.com> > To : brentmreed@hotmail.com > Subject : > Re: > Date : Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:43:01 -0600 > > Attachment : Card.DOC.pif (38k), text5.txt (0b) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > Received: from [24.93.35.222] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id > MHotMailBDCEF9C80075400431CE185D23DEC99F0; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:43:05 -0800 > Received: from aol.com (cs1703-204.jam.rr.com [24.170.3.204])by > sm10.texas.rr.com (8.12.0.Beta16/8.12.0.Beta16) with SMTP id fAT3h1df005829for > ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:43:02 -0600 > From smaneck@jam.rr.com Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:45:07 -0800 > Message-Id: <200111290343.fAT3h1df005829@sm10.texas.rr.com> > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Unsent: 1 > > Join us at Heart of the Baha'i Faith! ---> > https://groups.yahoo.com/group/heartofthebahaifaith > HBF is an oasis for Baha'is and their friends. Higher Unity is our goal, > through friendship, discussion and research on the Covenant and the > Guardianship. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 9:50 AM Subject: Re: Dermod=Fred? Who else is missing? Ad hominem. No substance. Garbled slander and insult. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011222164820.25705.00002655@mb-fi.aol.com... > > > >You're a liar and a slanderer.... > > > > About what Freddy? I'm just asking how you reconcile what you said about having > resigned voluntarily from your 'university' position when your own website > affirms you were denied tenure at a 'mediocre community college.' There you had > written the following: > > "During the last month I've received two pieces of unexpected news: one, a > Fulbright-Hays grant to China has gone through; two, I've been denied tenure, > such as it is, at this mediocre community college. The denial of tenure also > resulted in what would have been a loan on our first house falling through." > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm > > Now I don't think we could be talking about separate incidences because your > bio used to state that you resigned from university teaching because during > your Fullbright you became so upset that your US colleagues were defending > communism in a seminar at Beijing University and became disillusioned with > "academic literary culture" for that reason. Now that particular statement > seems to have been removed from your bio website where I found it the first > time when I quoted it on TRB last year. > https://groups.google.com/groups?q=Glaysher,+Beijing&start=20&hl=en&rnum=23 > &selm=xKmx5.51699%24QW4.598188%40news1.rdc1.mi.home.com > > I'm most curious as to what happened to it just as I am most curious to know > what the truth behind your short-lived academic career. Was your failure to > write finish a dessertation as voluntary as your failure to get tenure at this > community college? But let's face it, the real issue here is not your > credentials, its your credibility. > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 9:50 AM Subject: Re: Dermod=Fred? Who else is missing? Ad hominem. No substance. Garbled slander and insult. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011222192002.06156.00000975@mb-mq.aol.com... > > > >You're a liar and a slanderer.... > > You know Fred, if you hadn't been accusing me of lying and slander, I might not > have gone through the trouble of double -checking my facts and digging this all > up.;-} > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 9:51 AM Subject: Re: Dermod=Fred? Who else is missing? Ad hominem. No substance. Garbled slander and insult. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011222190821.06156.00000969@mb-mq.aol.com... > > I *chose* not to write a dissertation, and > >eventually *chose* to resign from university teaching. > > It does seem that Fred did resign from a university in 1996. But given the fact > that he insists he didn't have a PhD or any intention of finishing his > dissertation, it could not have been a permanent position. (He had already been > teaching in higher education for the past eight years, so it must have been > obvious.) Presumably then, it must have been either a visting position or an > adjunct position. Now having been a visiting professor myself on more than one > occasion, far be it for me to criticize this. The problem here is that Fred > states he *resigned* that position. This is most odd for such positions are > temporary anyhow. One doesn't resign them, one simply doesn't renew ones > contract. *Unless* what Fred means here is that resigned in the middle of a > contract. Now, that's a big no-no in academia. Fred, is that what happened? Did > you leave your students stranded in the middle of a term? Why would you do > that? Just because you were upset by your colleague's support of communism in > Beijing two years prior to this? Or might it have something to do with the > charges of racism and abuse that had been lodged against you at Oakland > University? That does make one wonder just how voluntary your resignation was. > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 9:52 AM Subject: Re: Dermod=Fred? Who else is missing? Ad hominem. No substance. Garbled slander and insult. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011227052319.18585.00001901@mb-bk.aol.com... > >The ad hominems in this newsgroup suggest that > >there could well be some considerable interest in such a project. > > Dear Michael, > > I'm afraid counsel, that such information does speak to credibility. > Furthermore, > I was responding to an accusation that I was somehow committing slander by > suggesting that Fred had a PhD. Since he had told me at one time, he did, I > thought I should check my facts. And I did so, uncovering a great deal of > information which I posted here in order to set the record straight. > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 6:37 AM Subject: More Maneck AOL Evidence - (Re: Susan, I found your long lost relatives/Maneck sends virus to Baha'iAngst) Further samples of Maneck's abuse of her AOL "position": Subj: Board Posting at Keyword: Baha'i Date: 12/23/2001 3:30:51 AM Eastern Standard Time From: LDRS LFST Shahid To: Glaysh112001 CC: LDRS LFST Mgr, LDRS LFST Jerry Dear Member, Regarding your messages posted at: Baha'i Message Boards To avoid further disruption to the message board, your posts have been removed. Please review Keyword: Message Board Product Guidelines and Keyword: Spirituality Message Board Standards for more information on what is appropriate in our community. Depending on the severity of the disruption, a report may have been submitted to AOL's Community Action Team for further review. Thanks for taking the time to read this letter. Please note, I cannot respond to replies. Please address any questions or comments to LDRS LFST Mgr. Regards, LDRS LFST Shahid Volunteer Message Board Host AOL Lifestyles Subject: Re: How to Report Maneck to AOL Date: 12/19/2001 7:56 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011219085618.01592.00000009@mb-ch.aol.com> Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, Ask the Staff goes around Maneck as well. I urge everyone to realize it's difficult to get AOL's attention but it can be done!!! Persist! Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: How to Report Maneck to AOL Date: 12/10/2001 6:45 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011210074556.11242.00002825@mb-fi.aol.com> Those tired of Maneck posting her URL should see the relevant thread at Question to Community Leaders. Or call and complain at 800-827-6364. Also Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, and then Ask the Staff, works well too. It goes over Maneck's head, as I was told on the phone. Incidentally, when you email the TOSGeneral it goes directly to Maneck, nobody else, which is again why you have to go around her now if you're tired of her manipulating TOS rules and employing her double standards on many fronts. As a bahai for over 25 years, I'm very tired of her dishonest manipulation of AOL and wish AOL would replace her with an honest person who fairly allows all views to be heard. Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: When is it o.k. not to forgive some one.according to the writings? Date: 12/13/2001 6:04 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011213070458.26004.00000008@mb-md.aol.com> >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Spam.... Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: How to Report Maneck to AOL Date: 12/13/2001 6:06 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011213070646.26004.00000011@mb-md.aol.com> >Gee, that's news to me. > > >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > That's what I was told by AOL. Still spamming your URL..... Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Sharing Knowledge Date: 12/15/2001 7:02 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011215080235.12941.00000208@mb-cu.aol.com> >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > NOT fair.... Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: How to Report Maneck to AOL Date: 12/19/2001 7:56 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011219085618.01592.00000009@mb-ch.aol.com> Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, Ask the Staff goes around Maneck as well. I urge everyone to realize it's difficult to get AOL's attention but it can be done!!! Persist! Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: How to Report Maneck to AOL Date: 12/19/2001 3:07 PM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011219160728.06255.00000146@mb-mq.aol.com> We can also snail mail AOL with a complaint about Maneck's fundamentalist double standard or whatever. Here's the address: AOL Customer Service PO Box 10810 Herdon, VA 20170 Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Sticks and stones...a few lizard tails...some gizzards...and dinner is ready! Date: 12/10/2001 7:12 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011210081226.11242.00002830@mb-fi.aol.com> >Gee, where can I get that clock? >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Please stop spamming your URL to AOL. Those tired of Maneck's double standard in this regard should see my note at Announcements. Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Sticks and stones... Date: 12/10/2001 7:13 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011210081359.11242.00002831@mb-fi.aol.com> >And even then, they must be doing this knowingly. As you know from your >participation on TRB, there are at least >three individuals lately that were engaging in the kind of activity I >mentioned. But they were not declared Covenant breakers, rather they were >removed from the rolls. Why? Because the Universal House of Justice >determined they did not really meet the criteria of membership and hence were >not wholly obligated to the provisions of the Covenant. >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com Now here's a sample of the way in which Maneck SLANDERS people on AOL.... Note too her double standard URL..... Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Why brainwashed Baha'is don't trust Prof. Juan Cole anymore Date: 12/11/2001 6:46 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011211074644.12731.00001739@mb-cu.aol.com> >The truth. >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > The truth is you are violating TOS rules regularly by posting your fundamentalist website URL while TOSing liberal-minded bahais like myself who attempt to present the other side of various issues. Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Ahh---the Pain - the Pain Date: 12/14/2001 11:30 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011214123002.29393.00000366@mb-ch.aol.com> >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Double standard. Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: My URL Date: 12/14/2001 11:35 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011214123526.29393.00000367@mb-ch.aol.com> Anyone else tired of Shahid/Maneck's double standard? The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ Call AOL and complain or use Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, Ask the Staff. Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: My URL Date: 12/15/2001 6:42 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011215074232.12941.00000199@mb-cu.aol.com> >He does it so his post will be removed and then he can complain that he is >being censored -- denied his freedom of speech. He will also claim the >Baha'is are doing it to him -- he will not admit that he violated AOL TOS. > False. It's obvious to any honest person that Maneck is SPAMMING the message boards with her URL while TOSing me and others. She is in violation of the TOS rules which anyone may corroborate by calling 800-827-6364 or Notify AOL, Message Boards, Ask the Stafff. Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: My URL Date: 12/15/2001 6:43 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011215074331.12941.00000200@mb-cu.aol.com> >https://www.susanmaneck.com There's nothing cute about shameless violation of the TOS rules. Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Sticks and stones... Date: 12/15/2001 7:01 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011215080123.12941.00000207@mb-cu.aol.com> >ttention from her. ;-} >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > TOS violation # 3,452.... Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Sticks and stones... Date: 12/15/2001 7:01 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011215080123.12941.00000207@mb-cu.aol.com> >ttention from her. ;-} >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > TOS violation # 3,452.... Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Posting URLs Date: 12/20/2001 7:12 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011220081221.01511.00000315@mb-ch.aol.com> >I would like to ask if it is considered spam if a hyperlink for a url is part >of a signature line? > Not if it's her URL. Otherwise, it's definitely spam.... Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Posting URLs Date: 12/20/2001 7:14 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011220081456.01511.00000316@mb-ch.aol.com> You're not citing AOL's policy on URLs. Attempting to justify spamming your own? Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Posting URLs Date: 12/21/2001 7:07 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011221080725.20183.00000391@mb-ba.aol.com> >"We encourage members to provide hyperlinks in their posts where applicable, >but please keep in mind that those websites must not violate AOL's Community >Guidelines. Post a link to that quotation. THAT is not what more than one AOL representative told me on the phone. Further, your fundamentalist interpretation of what is "appropriate" is not the same as AOL's but reveals your manipulation of the TOS rules in service of your fanatical views. You've been violating the TOS rules with impunity for years.... Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Posting URLs Date: 12/21/2001 7:07 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011221080725.20183.00000391@mb-ba.aol.com> >"We encourage members to provide hyperlinks in their posts where applicable, >but please keep in mind that those websites must not violate AOL's Community >Guidelines. Post a link to that quotation. THAT is not what more than one AOL representative told me on the phone. Further, your fundamentalist interpretation of what is "appropriate" is not the same as AOL's but reveals your manipulation of the TOS rules in service of your fanatical views. You've been violating the TOS rules with impunity for years.... Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: Proselytizing Date: 12/13/2001 6:01 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011213070118.26004.00000007@mb-md.aol.com> >that here. >warmest, Susan > >https://www.susanmaneck.com > Right. Still double-standard spamming your URL, I see.... Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: URLs Date: 12/16/2001 9:22 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011216102219.12878.00000468@mb-cu.aol.com> Deleting my message doesn't conceal the fact that you continue to suppress URLs of a liberal disposition versus your fanatical opinions.... The "community leader" knows very well she is violating the TOS rules to her advantage while suppressing URLs to any more liberal-minded bahai sites such as mine. All I ask for is fairness from AOL and she is not capable of providing it and has not now for years. I'm tired of it and ask that she be treated accordingly or removed and replaced with someone who can be fair. I've used Notify AOL, Message Boards, Ask the Staff many times to no avail. The community leader in question, Shahid/Susan Maneck knows she can rely on AOL not caring enough about an obscure religion board to do anything about it. Please prove her wrong.... Thank you for your help. Frederick Glaysher Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: ATTN - AOL - Result of Censorship by Maneck Date: 12/17/2001 6:16 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011217071635.05612.00000905@mb-fo.aol.com> For insight into what is the result of the incessant censorship imposed on the bahai message boards by Shahid/Maneck, see below: --- >It may be Maneck and the fundamentalist bahais >have a mole, in a sense, inside AOL who is protecting her/them, all the >more reason to go around her.... That is one of the reasons why I have yet to call AOL and report to them what goes on in the bahai message boards. I see calling them an exercise in futility and unfortunately that made me skeptical into thinking calling will do any change. It is also unfortunate that AOL does not have a system where members of AOL can vote for people whom they want to see moderate their message boards and other forums. You, me, and many people for the past several years have been harrassed by the coward bahai extremists. Recently, one of my messages was removed by the fanatic Maneck using the anonymous handle "Shahid." "Shahid," aka Maneck refuses to use her real name when moderating posts, something that the busta Mark Foster wouldn't even do (he as you know made it clear he was the moderator). May you Fred or someone else here can find a way to convince AOL to have a third party or a fair-minded person on AOL to investigate the matter and see the double-standard and outright hypocrisy of the bahai extremist domination of bahai forums on AOL. Because with taking this course, complaining to AOL will become something done in vain, unfortunately. Mahdi Muhammad --- Please do something to STOP the continual suppression of discussion here on AOL by Susan Maneck. Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: ATTN - AOL - Result of Censorship by Maneck Date: 12/19/2001 7:47 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011219084739.01592.00000004@mb-ch.aol.com> 3rd message from Mahdi on what Maneck is doing on AOL: >Forgive me for sound a bit pessimistic, but the I went through "Forgive me for sounding a bit pessimistic, but the experience I went through..." (I got a bad habit of not proofreading my posts!) At any rate, I would like to add that I know that the fanatical behavior of the "forum leaders" on AOL bahai message boards has led to not only people leaving, but having suspended and cancelled accounts over messages that do not contain profanity, slander, threats, spamming and so on. I have talked to people in chat rooms on AOL about members have their accounts terminated over posts that do not contain the above-mentioned things. Many of them thought I was lying or at least exaggerating because they thought it was too crazy to be true. Thanks to the bahai extremist domination on AOL bahai message boards, even the unbelievable has become a reality! Mahdi Muhammad Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: ATTN - AOL - Result of Censorship by Maneck Date: 12/19/2001 7:47 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011219084700.01592.00000003@mb-ch.aol.com> Another message reposted regarding Maneck's abuse of AOL: >BASICALLY, hikmat as interpreted by Maneck means she may lie and deceive all >she wants in "service" of the faith..... It's her modus operandi.... Yes, her fanatical interpretation of "hikmat" has made her into a wolf in sheep's clothing. I that believe as a result, her and Mark Foster's bullying on the bahai message boards has led to people to leave the message boards in utter disgust of the double-standards and "good-ole' boy" system they got going on there where certain people have carte blanche while others (like me and you) do not. You Fred have documented on your site instances of outright double-standards employed by Foster and Maneck. I would like to ask you kindly to post in a new message to newsgroups and elsewhere the quotes of AOL members as well as others who complained and documented the double-standard and hypocrisy of Foster and Maneck and their extremist supporters. Forgive me for sound a bit pessimistic, but the I went through on the AOL bahai message boards have made me feel hopeless into thinking that fighting for rights on AOL will do any good. Maybe if we constantly remind AOL staff by either calling them or sending them emails about what goes on, then perhaps there will be a chance that justice will prevail. Hopefully something will be done and AOL will be heedful of our complaints and warnings. Mahdi Muhammad Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: ATTN - AOL - Result of Censorship by Maneck Date: 12/19/2001 2:57 PM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011219155747.06255.00000143@mb-mq.aol.com> Maneck and you are the ones spewing out hatred, slander, and distortions. Both honest people among my fellow Bahais and non-Bahais of discernment increasingly realize that fact. Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: ATTN - AOL - Result of Censorship by Maneck Date: 12/20/2001 7:02 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011220080242.01511.00000311@mb-ch.aol.com> More smear and misrepresentations do not constitute addressing the issues of YOUR spamming your URL here on AOL and elsewhere for that matter.... Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Subject: Re: ATTN - AOL - Result of Censorship by Maneck Date: 12/20/2001 7:10 AM Central Standard Time From: Glaysh112001 Message-id: <20011220081007.01511.00000314@mb-ch.aol.com> >Mark Foster Foster was almost as bad of a "leader" here as Maneck. AOL representatives should look at my website under AOL Censorship for extensive documentation of that fact.... Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience "BrentMReed" wrote in message news:20011227181358.03595.00001501@mb-cg.aol.com... > Miss Maneck, I have sent you nothing directly to any of your emails. The only > contact you have had with me is indirect - through my posts to the AOL Message > Board. > > And yes, you me a message under your AOL screen name LFST HostShahid. And you > were very angry because I had reported you for censorship. As it turned out > though, you probably received the complaint that I sent to AOL . The > "malicious incurable virus" arrived with your name as sender immediately after > that. If I sent you an email directly, please produce it. > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 6:45 AM Subject: Maneck's "White Powder" Slander on AOL How low Maneck is willing to go in her efforts to slander others may be discerned below. Mr. Mahdi and I had both expressed our displeasure with her double standard of posting her URL all over AOL while TOSing or deleting URLs to my site or others. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship --- Subject: Re: ATTN - AOL - Result of Censorship by Maneck Date: 12/19/2001 1:57 AM Eastern Standard Time From: Smaneck Message-id: <20011219015744.26000.00001315@mb-md.aol.com> Well, well, Freddy, I see you've made an interesting bed-fellow with "Death to Baha'is" Muslim militant, Mr. Madhi. And you've been trying to persuade people your crusade is against fundamentalism. Try and keep the white powder off the board though, would you? warmest, Susan https://www.susanmaneck.com ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 6:47 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Re: UNO-BP-011219-1-IRANRESOLUTION-144-S "They desire only their rights under the International Bill of Human Rights, of which Iran is a signatory, including the right to life, the right to profess and practice their religion, the right to liberty ALL of which is DENIED by the "universal" house of "justice" to MEMBERS of the bahai faith who live in the United States of America and elsewhere, outside Iran....... Contemptible hypocrites.... "The nature of the persecution is clearly based on > religious belief," she continued. "Baha'is have repeatedly > been offered relief from persecution if they were prepared > to recant their Faith. Just as is the PERSECUTION by the "universal" house of "justice" of MEMBERS of the bahai faith in the United States of America and elsewhere for EXPRESSING their IDEAS on the Internet, here on talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere.... Contemptible hypocrites.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Graham Sorenson" wrote in message news:EabU7.77874$Wd.21880483@news1.rdc1.az.home.com... > UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY AGAIN EXPRESSES CONCERN OVER CONTINUING > DISCRIMINATION AGAINST IRAN'S BAHA'IS > > UNITED NATIONS, 19 December 2001 (BWNS) -- UNITED NATIONS, 19 December 2001 > (BWNS) -- For the 16th > time in 17 years, the United Nations General Assembly has > expressed "concern" over human rights violations in Iran, > specifically noting the "still-existing discrimination" > against the Baha'i community of Iran. > > By a vote of 72 to 49, with 46 abstentions, the Assembly > passed a resolution on 19 December 2001 that calls on the > Islamic Republic of Iran to "eliminate all forms of > discrimination based on religious grounds" and, more > specifically, asks the Iranian Government to fully > implement previous United Nations recommendations that the > Baha'is be granted complete freedom to practice their > religion. > > The resolution followed a report issued in August by the UN > Human Rights Commission's special representative on Iran, > Professor Maurice Copithorne, that indicated that the > 300,000-member Iranian Baha'i community continues to > experience discrimination in the areas of education, > employment, travel, housing and the practice of religious > activities. > > More specifically, Prof. Copithorne said that Baha'i > property continues to be subject to confiscation. He > indicated that a number of Baha'i families were forced to > leave their homes and farmlands in the first months of 2001 > in Kata, Buyr-Ahmand. In 2000, he said, information was > received that four buildings were confiscated in Tehran, > three in Shiraz and one in Isfahan. > > "It is also reported that the issuance of business licenses > to Baha'is has been delayed and that some stores and > business owned by Baha'is have been closed," said Prof. > Copithorne. > > Prof. Copithorne also said that Baha'is continue to be > denied access to higher education in legally recognized > public institutions. "Recently three classrooms used by the > Baha'is for their own educational purposes were seized," he > said. > > "Baha'is are still, in effect, prevented from participation > in religious gatherings or educational activities," wrote > Prof. Copithorne. > > In its resolution, the Assembly decided to continue > monitoring Iran next year, "paying particular attention to > further developments, including the situation of the > Baha'is and other minority groups." > > Since the Islamic Revolutionary regime took power in Iran > in 1979, Baha'is have been harassed and persecuted solely > on account of their religious beliefs. More than 200 > Baha'is have been killed, hundreds have been imprisoned, > and thousands have been deprived of jobs, education or > property. In 1983, all Baha'i institutions were banned, and > they remain officially closed. > > Although the number of executions and imprisonments has > lessened in recent years, Baha'is in Iran remain without > any official recognition or legal protection that might > protect them from discrimination, said Bani Dugal, a Baha'i > International Community representative to the United > Nations. > > "We see these on-going actions -- the imprisonment of > Baha'is, the confiscation of property, the deprivation of > education, the restrictions on travel and worship, and the > banning of Baha'i institutions -- as evidence of the > continuing campaign of the government of Iran to strangle > the Baha'i community of that country," said Ms. Dugal. > > "The nature of the persecution is clearly based on > religious belief," she continued. "Baha'is have repeatedly > been offered relief from persecution if they were prepared > to recant their Faith. > > "So Baha'is continue to be viewed as 'unprotected > infidels,' by the Government, without any form of legal > protection, even though Iran is a signatory of the > International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights which > guarantees freedom of religious belief. > > "The Baha'is seek no special privileges," Ms. Dugal > said. "They desire only their rights under the > International Bill of Human Rights, of which Iran is a > signatory, including the right to life, the right to > profess and practice their religion, the right to liberty > and security of person, and the right to education and > work." > > > -- > UNO-BP-011219-1-IRANRESOLUTION-144-S > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > Advance release: Please check our website for the final version of this > article. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > Copyright 2001 by the Baha'i World News Service. All stories and photographs > produced by the Bah' World News Service may be freely reprinted, re-emailed, > re-posted to the World Wide Web and otherwise reproduced by any individual > or > organization as long as they are attributed to the Bah' World News Service . > For more information, visit https://www.bahaiworldnews.org. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > If you have questions about this list or wish to unsubscribe, contact > subscribe@bahaiworldnews.org > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > > > > -- > Graham Sorenson > https://TheGuideToAromatherapy.com > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 6:59 AM Subject: bahai - Re: Maneck & Hikmat The non-bahai observer happening along here might want to consider Professor Juan Cole on Susan Maneck: I wish Susan Maneck well. We became friends in the early 1980s and I supported her, speaking well of her in the Middle East and South Asia fields where she was attempting to make a career. I have never harmed her in any way, and have until now practiced a sin-covering eye in her regard. However, she has behaved toward me in an academic setting with dishonesty and deceit in such a way as deprives her of the right to debate me publicly. She spied on me and lied about it. She betrayed confidences in such a way as to cause her academic colleagues to demand and get her resignation from a position she had held. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole20.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:9vkso1$g6peh$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > Susan Maneck has a very long and complicated history of censorship and > coercion on behalf of her fundamentalist interpretations of the bahai > writings. Please see Professor Juan Cole's extensive comments below on her > along with Paul Dodenhoff. Many other insights into her behavior may be > found around this website written by many other people. > > For what Bahais call "hikmat" or wisdom or dissimulation, see Susan Maneck's > :"Wisdom and Dissimulation: The Use and Meaning of Hikmat in the Baha'i > Writings and History." > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 7:07 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Re: Maneck & Hikmat ALSO, The non-bahai observer happening along here might want to consider this 2nd message from Professor Juan Cole's on Susan Maneck: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole19.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" wrote in message news:a0hmrj$kuhfi$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > The non-bahai observer happening along here might want to consider > Professor Juan Cole on Susan Maneck: > > I wish Susan Maneck well. We became friends in the early 1980s and I > supported her, speaking well of her in the Middle East and South Asia > fields where she was attempting to make a career. I have never harmed her > in any way, and have until now practiced a sin-covering eye in her regard. > However, she has behaved toward me in an academic setting with dishonesty > and deceit in such a way as deprives her of the right to debate me > publicly. She spied on me and lied about it. She betrayed confidences in > such a way as to cause her academic colleagues to demand and get her > resignation from a position she had held. > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole20.htm > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" > wrote in message news:9vkso1$g6peh$1@ID-75545.news.dfncis.de... > > Susan Maneck has a very long and complicated history of censorship and > > coercion on behalf of her fundamentalist interpretations of the bahai > > writings. Please see Professor Juan Cole's extensive comments below on her > > along with Paul Dodenhoff. Many other insights into her behavior may be > > found around this website written by many other people. > > > > For what Bahais call "hikmat" or wisdom or dissimulation, see Susan > Maneck's > > :"Wisdom and Dissimulation: The Use and Meaning of Hikmat in the Baha'i > > Writings and History." > > > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > > https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 7:15 AM Subject: Re: Maneck's "White Powder" Slander on AOL I believe AOL has left people who respect free speech and discussion no choice but to sue them. I suggest you call AOL and ask for their lawyer's email or telephone number. Tell them a number of regular users of the AOL bahai messages boards are fed up with their permitting Maneck and the other fundamentalists to suppress their rights to respond and post fairly. Remind the lawyers of the lawsuit against AOL filed by the Muslims in Washington, DC. Let them know this is AOL's last chance. AOL: 800-827-6364. Be sure to save copies of all emails or letters in order to document further in court the fact that every effort has been made to apprise AOL of the situation on the AOL bahai message boards. I have contacted a lawyer along these lines.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Mr Mahdi" wrote in message news:20011228065452.11823.00002076@mb-fx.aol.com... > >Mr. Mahdi and I had both expressed > >our displeasure with her double standard of posting her URL > >all over AOL while TOSing or deleting URLs to my site or others. > > Fred, the other day I got a TOS on my account after posting the URL > "www.answeringbahaullah.com" in a bahai forum on AOL. Wendy and other bahai > extremist fanatics regularly post their URLs in chat room and message boards on > AOL without ever being TOSed. > > I would like to know how can we make AOL realize the double-standards in its > own forums? I mean, I tried calling and other means but to no avail. There > must be some other means because if not, I might give up on all attempts to > notify AOL. > > Mahdi Muhammad ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 7:26 AM Subject: Re: Maneck & Hikmat BASICALLY, hikmat as interpreted by Maneck means she may lie and deceive all she wants in "service" of the faith..... It's her modus operandi.... https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm For her "hikmat" or wisdom or dissimulation see Susan Maneck's :"Wisdom and Dissimulation: The Use and Meaning of Hikmat in the Baha'i Writings and History." For a Muslim perspective on Bahai dissimulation, see Amir Butler on ""Taqaiya" On H-Bahai: The Practice of Taqiyyah (Dissimulation) in the Babi and Bahai Religions by Sepehr Manuchehri -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 7:47 AM Subject: Re: Maneck & Hikmat For Cole's comments back in January on Maneck's slanderous tactics, essentially "hikmat": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole2001.htm Then click Edit, Find "Maneck" for message below and other comments: JuanFrom: "Juan Cole" Subject: Re: common ground Date: Sunday, January 14, 2001 3:20 AM I do not have the time or the inclination to spend a lot of time on usenet right now, but since I have been slandered (and not for the first time) by Susan Stiles Maneck in her recent posting, I am forced to reply (yet again) to these falsehoods. But first, I would like to make my own mea culpas. I retract almost everything I said about the faith on email between May 4, 1996 and January 30, 1999. I was very depressed in the wake of the false charges that were launched against me, and as a result had temporarily lost my faith, which had been at the core of my being for 24 years. I am a very sensitive person, and this was a nightmare ordeal for me. I had the misfortune of being among the first persons in history to live through such a period of disorientation in the age of the Internet. Lots of rightwing Baha'is were eager to misrepresent themselves as my friends so as to get out of me my innermost thoughts, and these have been archived in Haifa, and Maneck posts private messages from me from that period occasionally in order to discredit me. Well, if it matters, I know I said a lot of things that were overdrawn or overly emotional, in my hurt, and I disavow them now. I consider myself a follower of Baha'u'llah again, now (however much I am unwanted), and while I am empathetic with my unbelieving self, that is no longer me. I am glad to admit I got lots of things wrong. Peter Khan's family was Muslim before becoming Baha'i. An Australian Baha'i misled me that they had at one point been Christian. I was wrong. The members of the House of Justice have all kinds of cars and not just Mercedes. However, they do preside over a budget that runs to hundreds of millions of dollars, and their refusal to publish any budget breakdown does raise questions about the nature of finances in Haifa. However, if I got their car types wrong or imputed to them chauffeurs they don't have, I am glad to retract. Accuracy means a lot to me. Pilgrims had told me these things, and they were pilgrims I trust more than I trust Maneck, but where there is doubt one cannot claim certainty. Moreover, some of my motives in talking about the members' lifestyle were hurt at the enormous injustice they had done to me, which was an unworthy motive. >And the hypocrisy of their actions became increasingly apparent. They >would complain of censorship and then tell me when I was moderator of >H-Bahai that I shouldn't allow somebody to post because they were >an "ultramontanist" and a "big Nixon supporter." Let's talk a little bit about hypocrisy. From about August of 1997, when Maneck started secretly working for "counselor" Ghadirian, she began sending him regular spy reports of the confidential deliberations of its academic editors. She began attempting to disrupt the list and "muddy the waters" in accordance with her instructions. We have a rule that subscribers should have a master's degree or more in the humanities or social sciences, to ensure an academic tone to discussions. She suddenly announced that she was going to start enrolling persons without those credentials. One of the persons she proposed to enroll in this maverick way was a lawyer who is also an Auxiliary Board Member for Protection, and who is no academic. I said no. I said that, moreover, the person had kooky ideas about Nixon having been innocent & etc. I mentioned his thinking Dick Nixon was the innocent target of a smear campaign (!!!) as yet another piece of evidence that this person was not a bona fide academic; but lack of credentials was what was determinative. Maneck's announcement that she would ignore the rules and do as she pleased; her frequent rejection of posts from Steve Scholl and other liberals on purely ideological grounds; her vicious insults directed at a prospective liberal moderator with the intent of scaring him away from helping the list; her constant spy reports to Ghadirian; her expression of delight that a subscriber had signed off that she viewed as a 'covenant breaker' because she intended to mount a campaign on the list to firm the academics up in the covenant; were all capped by a demand that I resign as editor. Ultimately she voluntarily resigned from her editorship in disgrace because she inadvertently supplied evidence, in the course of her persecution of me, that she was spying on the list for Ghadirian. She later publicly accused me on this very list of having fired her! While I would have if I could have, that was for the Editorial Board, and she did not give even them the opportunity. The fact is that she was misusing her position on an academic list to undermine its independence in favor of the imposition of some wacky fundamentalist orthodoxy, and she is still sore at having failed. >When they tried to persuade me that the Faith had been > taken over by a secret cabal going back to Mason Remey and Horace >Holley, I *really* had to step back and ask myself just what had I gotten myself into? If you knew anything about American Baha'i history you would know that both those individuals were deeply involved in creating a rightwing Baha'i culture. As for a cabal, I was upset when I said that. But it isn't far-fetched that the rightwing Counsellors who have taken over the Faith have some sort of at least informal network that allows them to politick so successfully and to come to power and remain there. On the other hand, this phenomenon could be more haphazard. I frankly don't know. At the time, I was commiserating with someone I thought a friend. And people say I never admit having been wrong! > Then I was sent a rough draft of the Panopticon article and saw it was filled > with distortions about matters where they author had to know better. The Panopticon article is not filled with distortions. I believe every word of it to be true, and I believed so when I wrote it. And, I sent it to Maneck for her comments, virtually all of which I incorporated into the final draft. So, if it was 'filled with distortions' she had every chance to set me straight on *all* of them, and it is her own fault if she did not. > Meanwhile, unfounded charges were being made saying things like the House had > ordered Abbas Amanat expelled from the Faith which I knew simply weren't true. If that is what you thought was being said, no wonder you thought it wasn't true. What I said was that Derek Cockshut waged a brutal campaign to protest the Bahai Publishing Trust's carrying Abbas Amanat's *Resurrection and Renewal* in 1989 when it came out. And that the NSA took the issue to the House of Justice. And that the House of Justice wrote that it was all right to carry the book because Abbas Amanat "is not a Baha'i." Abbas, however, was and is an enrolled Baha'i in the US community, and he has never disavowed faith in Baha'u'llah. In the wake of the 1990 letter the NSA sent him several insulting letters demanding to know his conscience (I thought there was no confession in our religion?) He declined to reply, last I knew. `Abdu'l-Baha in the Hizar Bayti said we don't have the Muslim custom of declaring believing Baha'is to be infidels because we don't like their views, and I found the arrogance of the 1990 letter breathtaking. It was my first clue that something was very rotten in Haifa, and it wasn't just Wilmette. If Maneck turned against me because of this statement, she *reallY* wronged me! > Or I was told that the NSA of Canada had sold off a important collection within > their archives to prevent it from falling into the hands of academics, > something which proved to be utterly false. First of all, I've said publicly a number of times that I was wrong about that. It seems to me a relatively minor little affair, anyway. I got the story's details wrong, and a more knowledgeable poster corrected them. However, I am unaware that the NSA of Canada has provided its INBA set (manuscript facsimiles of the Baha'i Writings) to any scholars, and I think Maneck knows that it is problematic whether they would do so. > And something else would happen as well. I would start have arguments with > people on Talisman on basic issues like the existence of revelation and began > to realize that the people I was supporting didn't really believe in it in any > meaningful way. In other words, we had to be basically fundamentalists or neo- Calvinists or something, or else Maneck would gleefully join in the auto-da-fe against anything we said. Her idea of "Revelation" isn't dogma that all Baha'is have to accept, and her problems with deism are her problems. >But it was becoming increasingly apparent that if I went down, I > wasn't going down alone and began to realize that for the sake of >these Baha'is I needed to search for solutions rather than add to the >problems. So I began to behave much less recklessly. If you had behaved less recklessly that would have been fine. You turned into a Stasi-like spy, a fifth columnist, and an Inquisitor. And you decided that only by waging a smear campaign against me could you hope to make Baha'i scholarship acceptable to the fundies. That, you didn't have to do. These actions warped your personality and made you a poor Baha'i. > Right around this time there was a very lurid thread going on on Talisman > discussing some prominet Baha'i's supposed sexual indiscretions. Then Juan came > bursting on to Talisman saying, "I've been backbitten and so have you!" It was > in reference to a talk Counselor Gharian had made in London critical of the > Talisman list. Ghadirian's talk in London wasn't critical just of the Talisman list. He libelled me and David Langness and did all but issue Anathemas against us just as though he were an ayatollah in a turban. (And I thought you weren't supposed to backbite; David was a particular victim in this). Ghadirian should be careful. In the U.K., libel is easy to prove. As for the other issue, that a high Baha'i official resigned in disgrace from his profession for sexual harassment and then was immediately appointed to a cushy Baha'i job in Geneva was of interest to talismanians like Linda Walbridge. She had been threatened with being declared a covenant breaker for advocating more rights for Baha'i women, including service on the House of Justice. And here was a man in the old buddy system of high Baha'i administration who was actually promoted despite a public scandal that was in the newspapers. It wasn't just a matter of gossiping about someone's private life. It was outrage that innocent liberals were persecuted out of the faith and calumnied, but if you had friends in high places you could get away with anything. > Ghadirian. how his saintliness and love eventually overcame my fears and > suspicions. Oh, yeah, all the saints I know call meetings in London to backbite people, and then have their agents spy on people and make reports about their confidential conversations. Why, the KGB was full of saints in its heyday!! Maneck can't see that the only reason she got love-bombed by this manipulative physician was precisely because of his hope of gaining a spy "asset" known to be in close contact with me. And I have to hand it to him, he did a world-class job of turning her into a mole. >I began to realize that the House of Justice > was not out to destroy academic scholarship on the Baha'i Faith as I >had mistakenly believed all those years, It seems to be pretty arbitrary. Some people seem to be able to publish and not get in any particular trouble. Others are come down on like a ton of bricks, and it is not always clear why. I wonder if the unpredictability of it isn't intended to disrupt scholarship by making the academics nervous about saying anything at all about the faith. Denis MacEoin told me the story of how House of Justice members Ian Semple and David Hoffman threatened him and chased him out, destroying his faith. And, of course, we all saw what happened to the academics who dared speak publicly on talisman-1. >and that they did not eat scholars for breakfast Mainly they seem to threaten them them with some form of ostracization if they don't fall silent. But they do this to some and not to others. I have never been able to figure out why. sincerely, Juan Cole ---------- From: Glaysh112001@aol.com[SMTP:Glaysh112001@aol.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 8:08 AM To: SteveCase@aol.com Cc: FG@home.com Subject: SUING AOL - Re: Bahai Message Boards Community Leader) Your form letter below does not address the issues I contacted Steve Case about. One of your AOL Representatives on you 800 line instructed me to email Mr. Case about the continual censorship of the AOL bahai message boards. NOTE: AOL is leaving me and other members no alternative but to SUE in order to receive a fair and honest response to the problem of our fellow bahai who is a fundamentalist and consistently suppressing free speech and discussion. I have now contacted a lawyer and herewith request that you provide me with the name, address, and phone number of your lawyer. Sincerely, Frederick Glaysher glaysh112001@aol.com ------ Subj: Re: Bahai Message Boards Community Leader Date: 12/27/2001 10:08:20 AM Eastern Standard Time From: Steve Case To: Glaysh112001 Dear Glaysh112001, I am responding to your letter on behalf of Steve Case. Thank you for taking the time to write to us. As you can imagine, Mr. Case, as the Chairman of AOL Time Warner, is extremely busy throughout the week. As a result, his schedule does not permit him to respond personally to the hundreds of email messages he receives daily. He asked me to help respond to the letters he receives, so that all members receive prompt replies to their inquiries. To keep Mr. Case informed, we compose a monthly update advising him of the member concerns and comments received. Again, thanks for writing. Sincerely, Crystal Office of the Chairman ----------original message---------- From: Glaysh112001@aol.com To: SteveCase@aol.com ALSO snail-mailed to Customer Service: An AOL representative on the phone recommended I write Customer Service and Steve Case about the issue below. I'm writing Steve Case and Customer Service because it's proving impossible to get the attention of anyone at AOL other than your form responses from the TOSGeneral that refer me back to the community leader, WHO IS THE PROBLEM and IS UNFAIRLY MANIPULATING TOS RULES!!! The community leader of the bahai message boards, Shahid or Susan Maneck, is regularly TOSing more liberal-minded people for posting URLs while posting dozens of copies of her URL to her own fundamentalist website. As I mentioned, I and other liberal-minded bahais believe this volunteer leader regularly abuses her position and uses it to silence and attack people with whom she and the more fundamentalist-minded among my fellow Bahais disagree. This has gone on FOR YEARS on AOL. AOL's allowing the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, such as Susan Maneck, to run the messages boards is neither FUN nor ENTERTAINING.... Please stop the basic violation, year after year, of our very basic constitutional rights, both those of fellow Bahais, such as myself, and non-Bahais on AOL.... It should be noted by the non-bahai observer, especially anyone involved with AOL, that the "community leader" regularly TOSes or removes links from people whose views she opposes but allows other fundamentalists to post links to fundamentalist sites and events.... I'm only asking for fairness! IF we shouldn't post URLs, neither should she! She has now turned it into a "policy" permitting her to judge what is in "keeping with the Board purpose"  while suppressing anyone who disagrees with her. See all of the examples below, scattered all over the bahai message boards. I have extensive documentation of censorship on AOL available on my website, probably more a couple of megabytes worth stretching back for at least three years. See below. Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ DOCUMENTATION of abuse of AOL: "Recently, Dr. Maneck, A.K.A. LDRS LFST, Shahid, on America Online's Baha'i Faith Bulletin Board posted the following...." What may be expected from such a bahai community "leader" on AOL may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position" : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship1.htm Continuing AOL Censorship by bahais 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL2001.htm Those tired of Maneck posting her URL on AOL should see the relevant thread at Question to Community Leaders. Or call and complain at 800-827-6364. Also complain at Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, and then Ask the Staff, works well too. It goes over Maneck's head, as I was told on the phone. Incidentally, when you email the TOSGeneral from anywhere in bahai AOL space it in fact goes directly to Maneck, nobody else, which is again why you have to go around her now if you're tired of her manipulating TOS rules and employing her double standards on many fronts. SHE'S the TOSGeneral!! No wonder nothing results.... As a bahai for over 25 years, I'm very tired of her dishonest manipulation of AOL and wish AOL would replace her with an honest person who fairly allows all views to be heard. 1. (below from AOL member mrmahdi@aol.com Mr Mahdi) >It may be Maneck and the fundamentalist bahais >have a mole, in a sense, inside AOL who is protecting her/them, all the >more reason to go around her.... That is one of the reasons why I have yet to call AOL and report to them what goes on in the bahai message boards.  I see calling them an exercise in futility and unfortunately that made me skeptical into thinking calling will do any change. It is also unfortunate that AOL does not have a system where members of AOL can  vote for people whom they want to see moderate their message boards and other forums.  You, me, and many people for the past several years have been harrassed by the coward bahai extremists.  Recently, one of my messages was removed by the fanatic Maneck using the anonymous handle "Shahid." "Shahid," aka Maneck refuses to use her real name when moderating posts, something that the busta Mark Foster wouldn't even do (he as you know made it clear he was the  moderator). May you Fred or someone else here can find a way to convince AOL to have a third party or a fair-minded person on AOL to investigate the matter and see the double-standard and outright hypocrisy of the bahai extremist domination of bahai forums on AOL.  Because with taking this course, complaining to AOL will become something done in vain, unfortunately. Mahdi Muhammad --- Please do something to STOP the continual suppression of discussion here on AOL by Susan Maneck. Frederick Glaysher Website: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience 2. >BASICALLY, hikmat as interpreted by Maneck means she may lie and deceive all >she wants in "service" of the faith..... It's her modus operandi.... Yes, her fanatical interpretation of "hikmat" has made her into a wolf in sheep's clothing.   I that believe as a result, her and Mark Foster's bullying on the bahai message boards has led to people to leave the message boards in utter disgust of the double-standards and "good-ole' boy" system they got going on there where certain people have carte blanche while others (like me and you) do not. You Fred have documented on your site instances of outright double-standards employed by Foster and Maneck.  I would like to ask you kindly to post in a new message to newsgroups and elsewhere the quotes of AOL members as well as others  who complained and documented the double-standard and hypocrisy of Foster and  Maneck and their extremist supporters. Forgive me for sound a bit pessimistic, but the I went through on the AOL bahai message boards have made me feel hopeless into thinking that fighting for rights on AOL will do any good.  Maybe if we constantly remind AOL staff by either calling them or sending them emails about what goes on, then perhaps there will be a chance that justice will prevail. Hopefully something will be done and AOL will be heedful of our complaints and warnings. Mahdi Muhammad 3. >Forgive me for sound a bit pessimistic, but the I went through "Forgive me for sounding a bit pessimistic, but the experience I went through..." (I got a bad habit of not proofreading my posts!) At any rate, I would like to add that I know that the fanatical behavior of the "forum leaders" on AOL bahai message boards has led to not only people leaving, but having suspended and cancelled accounts over messages that do not contain profanity, slander, threats, spamming and so on.  I have talked to people in chat rooms on AOL about members have their accounts terminated over posts that do not contain the above-mentioned things.  Many of them thought I was lying or at least exaggerating because they thought it was too crazy to be true. Thanks to the bahai extremist domination on AOL bahai message boards, even the unbelievable has become a reality! Mahdi Muhammad X-Rep: 21 X-MailId: 3765729 X-Queue: 2 X-Mailer: SwiftMail v3.86 ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 8:36 AM Subject: "Obviously, there are thousands of Baha'is who do not share the current "Obviously, there are thousands of Baha'is who do not share the current uhj's fundamentalist mindset, and they can't put them all on trial, so most of you are probably safe enough. Their tactic appears to be to identify persons who are persistent posters and who therefore are becoming "prominent," with whom they disagree about their vision of the Baha'i faith, and then to target them in hopes of either silencing them or forcing them out of the religion. They probably also hope that a few such publicized cases will scare every other non-fundamentalist into silence, as well. If so, they haven't dealt with many Americans." Juan Cole, December 03, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/anonymous.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 8:37 AM Subject: "That includes blowing the whistle on coercion, "That includes blowing the whistle on coercion, manipulation and abuse by Baha'i administrators of innocent adherents. I plead for all right thinking and compassionate persons to join me in trying to reform the Baha'i administration by critiquing it. It is out of kilter. Its members know it is out of kilter. It needs to be righted. Kowtowing only keeps it out of kilter." Professor Juan Cole, October 12, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole19.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 8:39 AM Subject: WARNING - Psychological WAR ZONE - WARNING - Psychological WAR ZONE - WARNING - Psychological WAR ZONE - WARNING - Psychological WAR ZONE - Those new to talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai might want to consider that they have entered a psychological war zone, one in which bahai fundamentalists have been attempting for at least five years to portray many fellow bahais and non-bahais in exceedingly negative terms. A more than decade-long record of this psychological, spiritual battle may be quickly skimmed, or read to the degree of your interest, at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 8:45 AM Subject: The Genesis of the Baha'i Faith in Middle Eastern Modernity by Juan Cole FYI https://www.isim.nl/newsletter/2/regional/1.html The Genesis of the Baha'i Faith in Middle Eastern Modernity by Juan Cole Middle Eastern religion is seldom mentioned in the same breath with modernism, at least in the West. However, the Baha'i faith, which originated in nineteenth-century Iran, poses key conundrums to our understanding of the relationship between modernity and religion in the global South. Modernity was conceived in binary oppositions, between superstition and reason, absolutism and liberty, nation and Other, civilized and barbarian, and male and female. Proponents of modernity, as Edward Said demonstrated in his masterful Orientalism,1 managed to range a number of such oppositions together, coding reason, liberty, nation, civilization and maleness as European, whereas both Europe's medieval ('immature') past and Europe's Oriental Others, especially Islam, were painted as possessing the opposite and inferior characteristics. European modernity tended to hide from itself its own darker traits, including chauvinist hatreds, industrialized warfare, racism, colonialism and male chauvinism, and the degree to which the modern form of these phenomena was inextricably intertwined with the entire modernist project. From a postmodern point of view, modernity has lacked a sense of ambiguity and irony, and suffers from limiting its typologies to mere binary oppositions, when in fact social phenomena come in three's, four's, and even higher ordinals, not just in two's. North Atlantic modernists have also privileged the European experience of modernity in ways that seem peculiar to anyone who knows something about world history. Anthony Giddens in The Consequences of Modernity (Stanford, 1990), argues that modernity is not a static matter of binary oppositions, but is rather dialectical. Movements against absolutism give rise not only to parliamentary regimes, but also to national security states that appear to many citizens to deprive them of liberties instead of bestowing them, thus generating oppositional grassroots movements campaigning for democracy (as opposed to elitist Liberalism) and for workers' rights. That is, he challenges modernists' insistence that the contenders in political battles can be neatly divided into 'reactionaries' and 'progressives'. Giddens gives the name 'utopian realist' to the movements, such as those of workers, women, peace groups and others, that challenge the industrial, militant nation-states of bourgeois modernity. Islam's encounter with nineteenth-century modernity produced not only reactionary, revivalist, millenarian, liberal and fundamentalist responses, as some have argued, but in the form of the Baha'i faith it produced a mixture of millenarianism, liberalism and utopian realism that later turned sharply toward a sort of fundamentalism. The latter turn has tended to obscure the original emphases of the religion's founder, which can only be recovered through reading his voluminous letters in their nineteenth-century political and cultural context. The Baha'i faith developed out of the esoteric, kabbalistic Shaykhi movement of Shicite Islam, founded by Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsa'i (1753-1826), and out of the apocalyptic and messianic Babi movement, founded by cAli Muhammad Shirazi, the 'Bab' or door to the divine, in 1844, which racked Iran with religious ferment and turmoil, leading to the Bab's execution in 1850 and a retaliatory attempt on the life of Nasiru'd-Din Shah by radical Babis in 1852, and thence to a nation-wide pogrom against the new religion.2 Out of this maelstrom emerged an entirely different sort of messianic movement, the Baha'i faith, founded in Baghdad in 1863 by Mirza Husayn cAli Nuri, Baha'u'llah (1817-1892). Baha'u'llah, a high notable born in Tehran whose father had been a provincial governor married into the royal family, had emerged after the Bab's execution as a prominent Babi leader, though his more radical younger half-brother, Mirza Yahya Subh-i Azal, was more widely recognized as the vicar of the Bab in the 1850s and early 1860s. Baha'u'llah was exiled first to Ottoman Baghdad (1853), then to Istanbul (1863), Edirne (1863-1868) and finally in 1868 to Akka on the coast of Ottoman Syria, where he lived until his death. In 1867 he had broken decisively with Azal, proclaiming himself the messianic successor of the Bab and founding a new religion, the Baha'i faith. Partly due to his exiles to the Ottoman Empire, which was more directly imbricated in European modernity than Qajar Iran, Baha'u'llah turned Babism from a millenarian protest movement into one that mixed modernist and utopian realist themes. He expressed approval of some aspects of modernity, whereby he critiqued the absolutist Ottoman and Qajar states, including a call for parliamentary democracy, some separation of religion and state, a guarantee of freedom of conscience and expression, greater rights for women, and an end to arbitrary decrees, which should be replaced by tribunals. At the same time, however, he critiqued nineteenth-century modernity itself, condemning chauvinist nationalism (whether religious, linguistic or ethnic in character), European colonialism, industrialized warfare paid for by high taxes on the poor, the anarchy of international relations based upon the absolute sovereignty of nation-states (which he wished to curb through international peace conferences), and what he thought of as over-developed civilization, by which he appears to have meant materialism, pollution and massively destructive weaponry. Baha'u'llah's mixture of rationalization (e.g. parliamentary institutions and due process), appeal to human rights, and yet his communitarian emphasis on the creation of a new, revealed missionary religion, prefigured some of the convergences between the old Right and Left that French sociologist Alain Touraine perceives as characteristic of the turn of the twentieth century. In a fascinating about-face, the later Baha'i faith's leaders turned increasingly to the Right, condemning multi-party democracy as factious and plutocratic, advocating theocracy, and curbing individual freedom of conscience and expression within the community. This right wing shell has preserved the utopian realist core of Baha'u'llah's own emphases, however, creating a unique sectarian community that has remained tiny in the literate world, in part because of its strict controls on discourse, but which has had some success missionizing in India and elsewhere in the global South. The Babi-Bahai movements underwent an odyssey from militancy in the 1840s to pacifist, liberal globalism under Baha'u'llah and thence in the twentieth century to two contending emphases: a liberal stream that maintains a universalist and tolerant outlook and a conservative one that dreams of theocratic domination and insistence on scriptural literalism. The movement thus defies any easy teleology of modernity, and in many ways parallels the major reformist intellectual currents of modern Iran's Shicite majority. Juan R. I. Cole is Professor of Middle Eastern and South Asian History at the University of Michigan, USA. He is author of Modernity and the Millennium: The Genesis of the Baha'i Faith in the Nineteenth Century Middle East. New York: Columbia University Press. Notes 1. New York: Vintage, 1978. 2. Abbas Amanat (1989), Resurrection and Renewal: The Making of the Babi Movement in Iran, 1844-1850. Cornell: Cornell University Press. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This Page: 2/Regional/1.html Last Updated: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 9:03 AM Subject: bahai - Hoda Mahmoudi - Coercion of Conscience bahai - Hoda Mahmoudi - Coercion of Conscience Notice first that Dave Fiorito's distortions during August of 2001 didn't work so enter Maneck in the fall.... To whose claims I ask, if a letter or message had been sent by me to Hoda Mahmoudi, auxiliary board member, why and how would Maneck know anything about it? The Mahmoudi message was sent to me the very morning of the day that the first voting period for talk.religion.bahai ended and the RESULTS was posted, when over 600 fundamentalists followed the advice of fanatic Mark Towfiq and others to oppose free speech and open discussion. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Towfiq.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/1stRESULT.htm If a letter was sent to Mahoudi, it addressed only that context. It's a well known fact that Maneck is Gharidian's sycophant. If she has been given a letter intended for the context of Hoda Mahmoudi's interferring in the free and unfettered voting for talk.religion.bahai, thereby violating the very Words of Abdu'l-Baha extolling freedom of speech and conscience and which led me to appeal to the uhj for an explanation of Mahmoudi's deceitful interference, let her post a copy of it on talk.religion.bahai, though it is tantamount to backbiting and further slander, in my opinion, to distort a communication in one context to fit the evil designs of a corrupted fundamentalist administration in another. See Mahmoudi's deceitfully sugarcoated, intimidating letter at the bottom of the link below. Note that Mahmoudi never asked to meet with me but to telephone her. The other claims along these lines are false, i.e., that if a letter or message was sent to Mahmoudi it was posted to Usenet. Further note that the administration is definitely interferring in free speech and conscience here on talk.religion.bahai and other online venues through their various sycophants in contradistinction to Abdu'l-Baha's elevating vision. To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ72498.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/uhj12-10-99.htm I reiterate that I am under no obligation to believe the claims of vulgar liars and slanderous pseudo-academicians distorting past events and communications to fit a now different agenda. https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain I notified the nsa of my declaration of belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976. They acknowledged my declaration by sending me back the ID card available for viewing on my homepage and by accepting monetary contributions from me for years, not to mention many personal sacrifices. Further details of my participation in the bahai faith, in sundry ways, may be found in my uhj letters also accessible from my homepage. If the nsa has unilaterally changed my status as a member of the bahai faith, the obligation resides with them to notify me to that effect, which they have never done.... I urge the non-bahai looking in on this exchange to investigate and reflect carefully on the issues involved and on what they reveal about the bahai faith in practice versus theory.... Consider too that the real target of the fundamentalist attack on me may actually be the bahai community at large, to strike fear and obedience in their hearts in order to control them and to insure their submission, lest they too become the object of such a ferocious, incessant onslaught of slander and abuse.... Other relevant messages and details at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/images/Bahai-IDgif.gif For those who think this smear campaign is something new, Google archives my being hounding by the fundamentalists along these lines for years: https://groups.google.com/groups?q=Mahmoudi&hl=en&group=talk.religion.bahai&filter=0 I place my trust in Baha'u'llah. And I am a Baha'i in *Perfectly* Good Standing. I repeat that if a letter was written to Mahmoudi and Maneck has a copy of it, let her post it to talk.religion.bahai.... Maneck stated I had written and posted a message to Mahmoudi on google. I've neither acknowledged nor denied that I wrote a letter to her but rather that if one exists she's free to post it to talk.religion.bahai. If such a letter ever existed, it never appeared on my website. Note: Maneck has again revealed the extent to which she works behind the scenes with the fundamentalist elements of the administration. Her obvious game here is merely to discredit and smear me with malicious charges based on distortions taken out of context. I've answered her distortions sufficiently below. Her personal insults reveal much about her and the tactics of her fellow fundamentalists who have also betrayed Abdu'l-Baha's great Words, "in the world of religion there should be the right of unrestricted individual belief." The link below demonstrates no such message from me to Mahmoudi exists on Google: https://groups.google.com/groups?q=Mahmoudi&hl=en&group=talk.religion.bahai&filter=0 And it's not on my website. Since you're the one claiming it exists and was posted on my website, it's up to you to prove it. If your bosses have given you a copy, post it here on talk.religion.bahai. Or are you a liar, who can only slander, smear, and discredit other bahais who don't share your fundamentalist interpretations with bogus claims, attempting to drive them out since you can't tolerate anyone who doesn't mirror back to you your literal-minded views.... More insight on Hoda Mahmoudi by Paul Dodenhoff who resigned from the bahai faith and his position as an Assistant to the Auxiliary Board : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb95.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship See too David Langness, author of the suppressed "Modest Proposal," on Hoda Mahmoudi: "I would advise you to be careful about any meetings, calls or correspondence with Hoda Mahmoudi, who used to be an ABM here in Southern California. She is quite conservative, and sees herself -- as do many of the appointed branch, sadly -- as a staunch defender of the Faith and the faithful, able and more than willing to marginalize people like you and I to discredit our ideas. This cultlike practice of shunning and casting out any dissidents has unfortunately become the chief tactic of those fundamentalist Baha'is bent on maintaining the current leadership. My worry is that the more progressive Baha'is like Juan Cole and Steve Scholl and yourself will all leave the Faith and thereby increase the power of the conservatives." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Langness.htm ---------- From: MrMahdi@aol.com[SMTP:MrMahdi@aol.com] Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 1:52 PM To: patrick_henry@liberty.com; Glaysh112001@aol.com; FG@home.com Subject: Fwd: Terms of Service <> Greetings Fred, Here is the TOS violation notice I got from AOL. Bahai fanatics reported me on the bahai chat room for posting the "Answering Bahaullah" link. Bahais regularly post their links in bahai chat rooms and they never get TOSed. I urge you to also monitor chat rooms on AOL and see the double-standards employed by both AOL and Maneck et al. Sincerely, Mahdi Muhammad ---------- From: MrMahdi@aol.com[SMTP:MrMahdi@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 4:42 AM To: patrick_henry@liberty.com; Glaysh112001@aol.com; FG@home.com Subject: Concerning the lawsuit... Greetings Fred, I would like to ask about the possibility of suing AOL. You mentioned on the messages boards and on TRB about suing AOL for its constant refusal to heed customer complaints and take action against bahai ultra-extremism on its message boards and even chat rooms. If you do decide to sue, what would be the role of victims like myself in the lawsuit? Would I have to be subpoenaed as a result? I ask because I am working on music album at this current time with plans on moving to Los Angeles next year. Due to my background, I do not think I would favor too highly to travel to whatever court room and testify. But what ever I can do to help the case, I would most likely help you. If you need emails, newsgroups postings, etc., please feel free to ask. I hope whatever you do, in the end, we will get the rights we deserves as paying members of AOL. Sincerely, Mahdi Muhammad ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 8:09 AM Subject: Re: Extremist Maneck violates AOL's TOS with impunity False. There's more to it. AOL Community Representatives emphatically state that URLs may not be posted to AOL message boards, including Maneck's URL when I have spoken with them on the telephone on two occasions. Maneck is defining in her fundamentalist way what is the bahai faith, what constitutes "support and/or fellowship," and then censoring anyone who in her opinion differs with her view. THAT is blatant violation of people's constitutional rights and the freedom of conscience and speech extolled by Abdu'l-Baha. AOL is not above the law nor is Maneck. AOL has been put on notice. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011229001949.14774.00002368@mb-df.aol.com... > > > >Susan Maneck, the extremist bahai fanatic who is "in charge" of the bahai > >message boards on AOL, continues to violate AOL's TOS by posting her URLs > > Here are the AOL rules for posting all hyperlinks, including URLs: > > "Hyperlinks in Posts > We encourage members to provide hyperlinks in their posts where applicable, but > please keep in mind that those websites must not violate AOL's Community > Guidelines." > > The following are the community guidelines for the spirituality forums: > > "About the Spirituality Forums > Intelligent and thought-provoking discussions are always welcomed and > encouraged, however many of the Spirituality message boards are dedicated to > support and/or fellowship. Please bear in mind that debate topics may be > removed from these areas. Members wishing to discuss or debate religion with > members of faiths other than their own, we offer the Interfaith message board > which encompasses many interdenominational discussion topics. > > Proselytizing > Proselytizing or exhortation of any member to convert religions, abandon their > faith, or accept a faith other than their own is not allowed in the > Spirituality forums. Posts containing such material may be removed and may be > reported to AOL for furthetion." > > > > > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 8:11 AM Subject: Maneck's fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards Maneck's fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards "Recently, Dr. Maneck, A.K.A. LDRS LFST, Shahid, on America Online's Baha'i Faith Bulletin Board posted the following...." What may be expected from such a bahai community "leader" on AOL may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position" : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship1.htm Continuing AOL Censorship by bahais 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL2001.htm Those tired of Maneck posting her URL on AOL should see the relevant thread at Question to Community Leaders. Or call and complain at 800-827-6364. Also complain at Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, and then Ask the Staff, works well too. It goes over Maneck's head, as I was told on the phone. Incidentally, when you email the TOSGeneral from anywhere in bahai AOL space it in fact goes directly to Maneck, nobody else, which is again why you have to go around her now if you're tired of her manipulating TOS rules and employing her double standards on many fronts. SHE'S the TOSGeneral!! No wonder nothing results.... As a bahai for over 25 years, I'm very tired of her dishonest manipulation of AOL and wish AOL would replace her with an honest person who fairly allows all views to be heard. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 8:12 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Hoda Mahmoudi - Coercion of Conscience You're a liar. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship Maneck's fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards "Recently, Dr. Maneck, A.K.A. LDRS LFST, Shahid, on America Online's Baha'i Faith Bulletin Board posted the following...." What may be expected from such a bahai community "leader" on AOL may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position" : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship1.htm Continuing AOL Censorship by bahais 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL2001.htm Those tired of Maneck posting her URL on AOL should see the relevant thread at Question to Community Leaders. Or call and complain at 800-827-6364. Also complain at Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, and then Ask the Staff, works well too. It goes over Maneck's head, as I was told on the phone. Incidentally, when you email the TOSGeneral from anywhere in bahai AOL space it in fact goes directly to Maneck, nobody else, which is again why you have to go around her now if you're tired of her manipulating TOS rules and employing her double standards on many fronts. SHE'S the TOSGeneral!! No wonder nothing results.... As a bahai for over 25 years, I'm very tired of her dishonest manipulation of AOL and wish AOL would replace her with an honest person who fairly allows all views to be heard. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011229001332.14774.00002367@mb-df.aol.com... > >To whose claims I ask, if a=20 > >letter or message had been sent by me to Hoda Mahmoudi, auxiliary=20 > >board member, why and how would Maneck know anything about it?=20 > > Because you had posted it on your website, Freddy. > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 8:46 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Hoda Mahmoudi - Coercion of Conscience "The Bahai Technique": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 10:07 AM Subject: bahai - Re: NSA statement in New York Times What the bahai nsa does not want Americans to know about: The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ----- Original Message ----- From: "slaveswagen" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 8:09 PM Subject: NSA statement in New York Times Any reactions to the Baha'i National Spiritual Assembly full page ad in the New York times? See the text below: > The Destiny of America and > The Promise of World Peace > > At this time of world turmoil, the United States > Baha'i community offers a perspective on the > destiny of America as the promoter of world > peace. > > More than a hundred years ago, Baha'u'llah > the founder of the Baha'i Faith, addressing > heads of state, proclaimed that the age of > maturity for the entire human race had come. > The unity of humankind was now to be > established as the foundation of the great > peace that would mark the highest stage in > humanity's spiritual and social evolution. > Revolutionary and world-shaking changes were > therefore inevitable. > > The Baha'i writings state: > The world is moving on. Its events are > unfolding ominously and with bewildering > rapidity. The whirlwind of its passions is swift > and alarmingly violent. The New World is > insensibly drawn into its vortex. . . . Dangers, > undreamt of and unpredictable, threaten it both > from within and from without. Its governments > and peoples are being gradually enmeshed in > the coils of the world's recurrent crises and > fierce controversies. . . . The world is > contracting into a neighborhood. America, > willingly or unwillingly, must face and grapple > with this new situation. For purposes of national > security, let alone any humanitarian motive, she > must assume the obligations imposed by this > newly created neighborhood. Paradoxical as it > may seem, her only hope of extricating herself > from the perils gathering around her is to > become entangled in that very web of > international association which the Hand of an > inscrutable Providence is weaving. > > The American nation, Baha'is believe, will > evolve, through tests and trials to become a > land of spiritual distinction and leadership, a > champion of justice and unity among all > peoples and nations, and a powerful servant of > the cause of everlasting peace. This is the > peace promised by God in the sacred texts of > the world's religions. > > Establishing peace is not simply a matter of > signing treaties and protocols; it is a complex > task requiring a new level of commitment to > resolving issues not customarily associated > with the pursuit of peace. > > Universal acceptance of the spiritual principle > of the oneness of humankind is essential to any > successful attempt to establish world peace. > Racism, one of the most baneful and persistent > evils, is a major barrier to peace. > The emancipation of women, the achievement > of full equality of the sexes, is one of the most > important, though less acknowledged, > prerequisites of peace. > > The inordinate disparity between rich and poor > keeps the world in a state of instability, > preventing the achievement of peace. > Unbridled nationalism, as distinguished from a > sane and legitimate patriotism, must give way > to a wider loyalty, to the love of humanity as a > whole. > > Religious strife, the cause of innumerable wars > and conflicts throughout history, is a major > obstacle to progress. The challenge facing the > world's religious leaders is to contemplate, with > hearts filled with compassion and the desire for > truth, the plight of humanity, and to ask > themselves whether they cannot, in humility > before their God, submerge their theological > differences in a great spirit of mutual > forbearance that will enable them to work > together for the advancement of human > understanding and peace. > > Baha'is pray, "May this American Democracy > be the first nation to establish the foundation of > international agreement. May it be the first > nation to proclaim the unity of mankind. May it > be the first to unfurl the standard of the Most > Great Peace." > > During this hour of crisis, we affirm our abiding > faith in the destiny of America. We know that > the road to its destiny is long, thorny and > tortuous, but we are confident that America will > emerge from her trials undivided and > undefeatable. > > -National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the > United States > > The National Spiritual Assembly's Statement "The Destiny of > America and the Promise of World Peace" to appear in the New > York Times, Sunday, December 23, 2001. > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 10:15 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Hoda Mahmoudi - Coercion of Conscience You're a liar and a slanderer. You've established nothing but that you twist everything you touch in order to smear and discredit those with whom you disagree. Your MISunderstanding of my biography is a case in point. You've obviously distorted it to suit your agenda, proving yet once again you have no purpose but serving the fundamentalist hacks who control you. "The Bahai Technique": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20011230040621.01059.00001277@mb-mk.aol.com... > > > >You're a liar. > > I'm a liar, huh? I believe I've already established some things about your own > credibility in regards to your statements about 'voluntarily resigning' from > academia because of your disillusionment in Bejing. > Susan Maneck > Associate Professor of History > Jackson State University > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > https://bahaistudies.net/susanmaneck/ > ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 10:19 AM Subject: Re: Notice: Mild Usenet annoyance, Fred "Baha'i in *Perfectly* Good Standing" Gleysher, STILL at it! Unlike the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, who so consistently employ slander and character assassination, I invite fair-minded people to judge the facts for themselves: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "NightShadow" wrote in message news:3c2de2a1.17191808@news... > Thpppppppptttt!!! > > >:-) > > Dateline: Somewhere in Cyberia, December 29, 2001 > > After more than three years of taking up the mantle to aprise and > alert non-Baha'is to the so-called (by Mr. Gleysher) "terrorist" > organization known as the esteemed Baha'i Faith, Mr. Gleysher has > staunchly continued his efforts to inform, MISinform and generally > annoy Usenet. > > Facts relating to the validity, sincerity, patience, unity, tolerance, > kindness, growth, developing maturity and cohesion of the Baha'i Faith > seem to have no effect on Mr. Gleysher's attempts to discredit, defame > and dismantle it. His continued diatribe and drivel, hearsay and rife > complaints against the Faith have gone on, largely unchecked, for > going on three years. Through crossposts to unrelated newsgroups on > Usenet, ad hominem arguments and personal attacks of individual > Baha'is on Usenet, Mr. Gleysher repeatedly and consistently attempts > to undercut the noble virtues of the Baha'i Faith by pointing out ONLY > its failures without tempering his posts regarding its successes- all > in the name of justice. Where, in this, is the justice of his actions? > Where is the balance of truth and wisdom? > > This man is to be commended for his dedication to his goal. Such > determination shows a strength and temerity rarely seen in human > beings. > > Unfortunately, such laudible characteristics are being applied at the > Baha'i Faith's destruction, but that does not seem to deter him in the > slightest. He has been engaged many a time over the years by various > members of the Baha'i Faith, many of them at first interested in > opening up a meritous dialogue with him, but said conversations have > degenerated to Mr. Gleysher pointing fingers and calling anyone who > questions him a "fundamentalist Baha'i." > > Some basic tenets of the Baha'i Faith: > Religion must go hand-in-hand with science. > Both men and women are equal > The abolition of war and slavery amongst Humanity > There is to be no division of the "races" within Humanity > The independent investigation of Truth > Baha'u'llah, the Faith's founder, is the promised one for this Day > and Age. > The advent of single World Government. > The advent of single World Currency/Economy > The advent of single World Auxilliary Language > No one religion is greater than another; all religions are equal > and unified through the Baha'i Faith. > > Mr. Gleysher contends that anyone who questions his views on the > Baha'i Faith, its Administrative Order and its growth is a "fundie." > > Question: > Considering the items listed above, who in their right mind would NOT > want to take on such ideals as fundamental to their way of thinking? > > Find out more about the Baha'i Faith at: > https://www.bahai.org > > For a complete online compendium of selected Baha'i writings and > teachings: > https://www.ibiblio.org/Bahai/TrueSeeker/ > > Learn for yourself, with discerning eyes, which claim is true. > > The Baha'i Faith's Administrative Order has not ONCE, as an > authoritative entity, come out to publicly criticise or defame Mr. > Gleysher- yet he persists in attacking it, its followers and its child > organizations. > > > Note: This message brought to you by an individual believer of the > Baha'i Faith and NOT a member of its administrative organization. Feel > free to contact me at seals_jay@hotmail.com for further questions > regarding the Baha'i Faith and its writings. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 10:40 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Re: NSA statement in New York Times According to the national "spiritual" assembly of the baha'is of the United States of America in its 12-23-01 propaganda ad in the New York Times: Religious strife, the cause of innumerable wars > and conflicts throughout history, is a major > obstacle to progress. The challenge facing the > world's religious leaders is to contemplate, with > hearts filled with compassion and the desire for > truth, the plight of humanity, and to ask > themselves whether they cannot, in humility > before their God, submerge their theological > differences in a great spirit of mutual > forbearance that will enable them to work > together for the advancement of human > understanding and peace. "Submerge their theological differences"? Like the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais who drive out leading American scholars at the University of Michigan and Indiana University for expressing their candid views and opinions on bahai history? Like the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais who drive out and attack diverse voices on AOL, beliefnet.com, talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, and every other online forum and mailing list on the Internet today? No one actually familiar with the record of my fellow bahais on such matters, painstakingly documented on my website, will fail to recognize the gross hypocrisy of the national "spiritual" assembly of the baha'is of the United States of America in its 12-23-01 propaganda ad in the New York Times.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 11:48 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Re: NSA statement in New York Times "The Bahai Technique": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "NightShadow" wrote in message news:3c2f4008.23605894@news... > There was someone named "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" > who once said...: > > >According to the national "spiritual" assembly of the baha'is > >of the United States of America in its 12-23-01 propaganda > >ad in the New York Times: > > > > Religious strife, the cause of innumerable wars > >> and conflicts throughout history, is a major > >> obstacle to progress. The challenge facing the > >> world's religious leaders is to contemplate, with > >> hearts filled with compassion and the desire for > >> truth, the plight of humanity, and to ask > >> themselves whether they cannot, in humility > >> before their God, submerge their theological > >> differences in a great spirit of mutual > >> forbearance that will enable them to work > >> together for the advancement of human > >> understanding and peace. > > > >"Submerge their theological differences"? > > > >Like the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais > >who drive out leading American scholars at the > >University of Michigan and Indiana University for > >expressing their candid views and opinions on bahai > >history? > > > >Like the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais > >who drive out and attack diverse voices on AOL, > >beliefnet.com, talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, > >and every other online forum and mailing list on the > >Internet today? > > > >No one actually familiar with the record of my fellow > >bahais on such matters, painstakingly documented on > >my website, will fail to recognize the gross hypocrisy > >of the national "spiritual" assembly of the baha'is of the > >United States of America in its 12-23-01 propaganda > >ad in the New York Times.... > > > >-- > >Frederick Glaysher > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > >https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > > > > But, alas, how far the might do fall. > > Hypocrisy: Fred claims to be a believer of the Baha'i Faith, and a > Baha'i in *perfectly* good standing. One who stands is seen. A Baha'i > is one who believes that Baha'u'llah is the messenger of God for this > day- and Baha'u'llah enjoins ALL believers to support His Faith. One > who is perfect is without blemish. Fred does not perfectly stand up > and support the Faith. Rather, he toils daily to destroy it. Is this > the act of someone who supports his religion? > > I think not. > > Injustice: Fred publicly posts to Usenet with no other intention but > to slander the Baha'i Faith's Administrative Order in its entirety. He > levies an idle complaint of his own and conveys the cries of "foul" by > others, substantiating hearsay. And yet, the Baha'i Administrative > Order does nothing to attack or slander him. Is this justice, the best > beloved of all things in the eyes of God? > > I think not. > > Fred is a relatively brilliant man with a keen eye for noticing the > flaws of mortal men. Should his sight turn to the *successes* and good > deeds of the Baha'i Faith also and note them well, think of the > justice he could perform! ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 11:49 AM Subject: Re: Notice: Mild Usenet annoyance, Fred "Baha'i in *Perfectly* Good Standing" Gleysher, STILL at it! "The Bahai Technique": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship "NightShadow" wrote in message news:3c2f39f4.22049991@news... > There was someone named "BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing" > who once said...: > > >Unlike the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, who so > >consistently employ slander and character assassination, > >I invite fair-minded people to judge the facts for themselves: > >https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > > >-- > >Frederick Glaysher > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > >https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship > > It's about time you eat some crow, Fred. If you put yourself in the > spotlight, expect people to see you- warts and all. And believe me, > people ARE watching. > > You see fit to attack the Baha'i Faith while still claiming to be a > member of it. If that isn't hypocrisy I don't know what is. This is > just your basic, run-of-the-mill karma, Fred. You repeatedly attempt > to slander and assassinate the character of the entire Baha'i Faith- > which is very much like a living entity in its own right. Well, guess > what? What goes around, comes around. > > You reap what you sow. In all fairness, you asked for it- by having > such a loud yapper in the first place. > > These posts about you and your duplicity will continue until you > decide to stop spamming unjustly and take responsibility for yourself. > Pay attention there, kiddo. JUSTICE. If you're going to shout out the > faults of the Baha'i Faith, it would be fair to also praise its > successes. > > It's called balance. Yin and Yang. Half and Half. Good and Bad. Light > and Darkness. Heaven and Hell. When you decide to present a BALANCED > view of the Baha'i Faith, your so-called "fundamentalists" will step > back. Until then, expect to be met measure for measure. > > And, for the record, this is NOT censorship. If you were being > censored here then you would not be allowed to post. Period. You're > still allowed to post. We just request that you do it with balance, > fairness and objectivity in mind. And you will be hounded until you do > so- in due fairness and justice. > > Call it "due process." > > Right now you're behaving just like any other propaganda machine. For > every one bad thing you criticise about the Faith, there's ten good > things you're not praising about it. > > It's aaaaaall about the balance. ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 11:56 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Hoda Mahmoudi - Coercion of Conscience Since Maneck has again slandered me, those interested may judge me for themselves at https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm My reviews discussing race, in various dimensions, may be found at https://fglaysher.com/Reviews.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:24 PM Subject: The Bahai Technique - Demonize, Discredit, Smear, Slander, Shun, Revile, Suppress, Attack, Bully, Intimidate, Threaten, Malign, Blackball, Coerce, Silence, Harass... etc., etc.... The Bahai Technique - Demonize, Discredit, Smear, Slander, Shun, Revile, Suppress, Attack, Bully, Intimidate, Threaten, Malign, Blackball, Coerce, Silence, Harass... etc., etc.... ------------------------------------------------------------------ During the last decade or so a number of observers have noted common methods many fundamentalist Bahais use to avoid various issues or discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Dermod Ryder, September 19, 2001: "And then Eureka! I realised why Fred gets the treatment he does . . . for Fred has painstakingly not only assembled the evidence of the canker within but he constantly publicises it to the extent that he really gets up noses and AO noses at that! . . . I basically agree with him that the AO terrorises people - terror is more than bombs or kamikaze aircraft. A whispered aside in the right circumstances can instil terror (like a threat to be made a CB) - most ethnic cleansing is carried out by a piece of "good" advice to the effect that one would be better off NOT living in this neighbourhood, from a gentleman who is known or assumed to have the "right connections" to ensure the advice is heeded. Twenty years ago the AO tried that particular threatening tactic on with me and were told where they could stick it! Others can also testify to that including Dennis Rogers whose experiences were posted on TRB recently. And you guys hate Fred for this, for his continued exposing of the sewer that the AO has become. Of course you all hate Juan, Alison, Michael, Nima etc as well and for the same reason and give them the same treatment but somewhat reduced for they don't post as much as Fred who is just a real pain in the butt for doing what he does so well! Fred is an avid counter terrorist and he's good at it as the whimpering from the BIGS proves!" https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Ryder2001.htm Mr Mahdi, November 14, 2000: "The extremism of those who are trying to get Fred Glaysher off the Internet is beyond any rational justification, for the simple fact that Fred does not use any lewd or obscene language nor does he post irrelevant topics that are not worthy of discussion. Bahais seem to be so obsessed at maintaining their superficial "progressive" image that anything that exposes the . . . hypocrisy of the bahai faith are suppressed and attacked, in order for the bahais to keep deceiving people into thinking that these are unwarranted and baseless attacks and accusations which hold no weight in reality." Professor Juan Cole, University of Michigan, June 12, 1998: "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified threats of declaring him or her a CB [Covenant Breaker (heretic)] to silence the individual, and if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the gullibility of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket. Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization ostensibly committed to tolerance!" https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole10.htm Professor Juan Cole, February 23, 1999: "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they will admit to being "Baha'i" at all). Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from enrolled Baha'isor when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith. The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon them to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do not fall silent. With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech about the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You will note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long-term heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose with the facts,' and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused of all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been backbitten by them." "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute. Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five years. He can explain it to you." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole71.htm Frederick Glaysher, May 12, 1992: "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [since 1976]. The usual stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the Truth." https://fglaysher.com/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm Ron House, November 14, 1997: "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so much he says something intemperate, then point out how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this technique works, so I've been making a conscious effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. At any other time, they would overlook faults, as Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode they go for the jugular.Very sad." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/House2.htm Fran Baker, May 1998: "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a groupacts this way. Very scary." Frederick Glaysher, June 1998: "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to talk.religion.bahai." K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in their condemnations of their fellow believers, I would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not character assassination by innuendo, what is?" https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Johnson18.htm Gibro28W, October 12, 1998:"In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out as "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs of its members in the first place."https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb73.htm David Langness, 31 Mar 1997: "I would advise you to be careful about any meetings, calls or correspondence with Hoda Mahmoudi, who used to be an ABM here in Southern California. She is quite conservative, and sees herself -- as do many of the appointed branch, sadly -- as a staunch defender of the Faith and the faithful, able and more than willing to marginalize people like you and I to discredit our ideas. This cultlike practice of shunning and casting out any dissidents has unfortunately become the chief tactic of those fundamentalist Baha'is bent on maintaining the current leadership. My worry is that the more progressive Baha'is like Juan Cole and Steve Scholl and yourself will all leave the Faith and thereby increase the power of the conservatives." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Langness.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------- LaAeterna on the fundamentalist silencing of opponents: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb65.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------- This document at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:27 PM Subject: bahai - START HERE - NEWCOMERS bahai - START HERE - NEWCOMERS If newcomers to talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai desire not to be deceived, it will require more than a passing glance at a few messages. I suggest you begin with the links below which provide a historical survey of the last several years of bahai censorship and then visit further my and Professor Cole's websites. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roll Call of Victims https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/RollCall.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ72498.htm To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm The Bahai Technique ---- **Essential Reading** ---- Demonize, Discredit, Smear, Suppress, Malign, Slander, Shun... etc.... https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations Documenting Censorship https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb-bq.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, surveys the many incidents of bahai censorship that have taken place during the last few decades in "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- FULL TEXT: New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AmicusC.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:29 PM Subject: bahai - Roll Call of Victims bahai - Roll Call of Victims The many victims of bahai fundamentalists include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman, and Deborah Buckhorn, whose story may be read at New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AmicusC.htm David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:31 PM Subject: bahai - FALSE - Membership Statistics in India Professor Juan Cole of the University of Michigan commented in April 2001 that, since 1968, 50% of the people who entered the bahai faith have left it. According to him, a professor of religious history and studies at the University of Michigan, the usually figure for most Christian denominations is approximately 80% retention, meaning about only 20% decide to leave once they become a member. 50% is truly a remarkably high number and reveals emphatically that something is indeed wrong about the atmosphere within the bahai faith, once one has declared one's belief and is taken into the fold to be properly censored, coerced, and manipulated.... Bahai fanatics online exude the same duplicity and dishonesty the new adherent quickly comes to realize is normative behind the facade of love and brotherhood. The FULL TEXT of the New Mexico lawsuit reveals what many of the problems are that are driving sensitive and thoughtful people out of the bahai faith in droves. Cole has also stated that according to the official census figures of India there are approximately only 5,000 bahais that they were able to find in the country compare with the millions claimed by the bahai administration, a fact worth lingering on.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Upon further reflection, a better estimate might be arrived at for true Baha'i world membership statistics than 6.7 million by extrapolating what is generally accepted regarding USA Bahai membership. The Bahai administration regularly claims 140,000 US Bahais. Having never seen such large numbers of US Bahais, most thoughtful Bahais prefer the figure of 60,000 US Bahais based on the widely known existence of actual mailing addresses for that number, many of whom though never participate in Bahai activities, being regarded as "inactive." If we subtract the "inactive" Bahais from the 60,000, we have the figure of approximately only 25,000 Bahais who show up regularly in the United States. Taking these two widely held figures, I calculate 43% and 19% of the 140,000 claimed by the Bahai administration: 140,000 X 43 % = 60,200 addresses for "Bahais" in US 140,000 X 19% = 26,600 "active" US Bahais Applying that formula to the similarly inflated figure of worldwide Bahai membership of 6.7 million, I believe the true worldwide membership numbers to be close to the following: 6.7 million X 43% = 2,881,000 known "addresses" worldwide 6.7 million X 19% = 1,273,000 "active" Bahais worldwide Rounding up, giving the benefit of the doubt, and there are probably only a maximum of 3 million Bahais at best worldwide, especially since there are essentially no Bahais in Europe beyond a negligible few hundred to a thousand in most countries, as in Japan. Many Bahais have for decades been suspicious of the administration's claims of millionsin the developing world. Hope this helps the Encyclopedia Britannica in its effort to ascertain a reliable figure. I should like to add two points: 1) A number of Bahais or ex-Bahais who worked at the NSA of the United States have stated online over the past years that they knew for a fact that only about 60,000 addresses existed for American Bahais-- all other snail mail would bounce.... Hence, the 60,000 figure. 2) TENS of THOUSANDS of people have entered the Bahai faith and then left, or been driven out, often without caring enough to bother with officially "withdrawing." It would appear approximately 80,000 of them.... Both facts should be considered by the Encyclopedia of Britannica when attempting to determine worldwide membership and probably both corroborate further my estimates based on 43% and 19% according to known discrepancies in the United States enrollment figures. Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: bahai.htm ----- Juan, Thanks for contacting the Encyclopedia Britannica. I myself doubt 5 million Bahais exist. The statistics for India and other countries of the developing world are certainly inflated and they usually have only the vaugest idea of what they're doing when they sign a Bahai card, never or seldom to show up again for any Bahai activity. 3 to 4 million would still be too many. Anything below 6.7 million, though, is headed in the right direction. Obviously, the Bahai institutions are unreliable. Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: bahai.htm ----- FYI: Thanks, Fred. I wrote them that even 5 million is an exaggeration. cheers JRIC [Juan Cole] ----- FYI mdiller@us.britannica.com : Hello. Your comment has been bouncing around our email network, from editors to World Data authorities, and the resolution is that we would like to revise our figures for Baha'i membership worldwide provided we can come across hard statistical data to go by. Given that our current figures are based on the best available statistics currently at our disposal, however, we will not be able to make such a change unless you can point us in the direction of publications that indicate exaggerated membership totals in the areas you mention. Do you know of such a reference source that we could consult? Sincerely, Mark Diller, Ph.D. Online Editor, Religion Britannica.com, Inc. > -----Original Message----- > From: Trumbull, Charles > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 8:54 AM > To: Sturgis, Joseph; Diller, Mark > Subject: RE: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia > Britannica > > Our figure this year for total Bahais worldwide is about 6.9 million. I'm > sure the authors of the table would be interested in any hard statistics > any of these readers may have that indicate our figures are too high. > > Charlie > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sturgis, Joseph > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 7:02 AM > To: Trumbull, Charles > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Diller, Mark > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 08:31 AM > To: Sturgis, Joseph > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia Britannica > > > > > > RE: World Religions Table. Joe Sturgis > > -----Original Message----- > From: Himick, Michael > Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 4:34 PM > To: Diller, Mark > Subject: FW: False Bahai membership statistics on > Encyclopedia > Britannica ---- FYI A response from the Encyclopedia of Britannica: --- Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your feedback regarding the Britannica.com site. We value and appreciate all comments from our visitors. Your suggestions have been forwarded to the appropriate department. Thank you again for contacting Britannica.com. Sincerely, Jin Britannica.com Customer Service www.britannica.com -----Original Message----- From: FG Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 5:33 AM To: editorial-comments@us.britannica.com Subject: False Bahai membership statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica Actually the Encyclopedia Brittanica figure (6 million) is misleading. There has been a discussion on numerous Baha'i lists for some years about the actual number of "active Baha'is" in the world and the number is closer to 1 million than 6+ million. The numbers claimed for the global south, for example, in such places as India, Africa as well as Latin America are often exagerrated. cheers, Nima ----- In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote regard Washington Post article: > https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100- > idx.html > > "Bahai's 6,764,000" > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > bahai.htm ----- Patrick Henry wrote in message news:s7123gsg5k2185@corp.supernews.com... > I've emailed the Encyclopedia Britannica regarding these > false Bahai membership statistics. > > -- > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > bahai.htm > [The Washington Post took as accurate the inflated figure of Bahai membership and reported it in its paper:] ----- > > In article <84l8ip$67f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > patrick_henry@bigfoot.com wrote: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/01/136l-010100-idx.html "Bahai's 6,764,000" Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > bahai.htm --- Finally, Juan Cole, in the following articles, places Bahai membership in the USA at 60,000, a figure that, in my opinion, is still too high: "Race, Immorality and Money in the American Baha'i Community" Religion 30, 2 (2000) ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:33 PM Subject: Conference Call - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Conference Call - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Now may be the time for a conference of Baha'is of all persuasions to come together and debate the great issues of freedom of speech and conscience in the Baha'i Faith for the salvation of the Cause of the Blessed Beauty. I invite Juan Cole to consider hosting such a conference at the University of Michigan for the participation of people of all points of view, including representatives of the administrative order. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:34 PM Subject: Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Despite the slander of many fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, I have been a member of the bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my main bahai page. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. The reason the uhj allows and encourages fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to backbite and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet, and elsewhere may be discovered in the four messages below: To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ72498.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/uhj12-10-99.htm Open Petition for Baha'i Reformation February 8, 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Reformation.htm My Request Not to Receive the American Bahai 1996 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:35 PM Subject: bahai - "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." bahai - "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." In 1996 my request to the circulation department for the American Bahai, repeated twice and perhaps a third time, read, "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." I had torn off the preprinted address change label regularly published on the back page of the American Bahai and mailed it into the address given for subscription changes. I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be removed from the mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, no threat, etc.... Dermod Ryder's speculation that willingness to receive the American Bahai has become compulsory should give pause.... Again, note well, I used the address on the back of the American Bahai given specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write the nsa, its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the simplest of requests: remove my name and address from your mailing list. Not a word or suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith, nor any criticism of it whatsoever, real nor implied. I conveyed my wishes to the proper address, as announced in the American Bahai itself. That I received a response back from an entirely different address speaks volumes, as they say. After six years, I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. I've scanned the letter so others might read the original. I am not about to accept the slander and backbiting of fanatics and fundamentalists nor allow them to provoke me into one action or another. I prefer the facts: Again, I declared my belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976 and notified the nsa, who sent me back the declaration card available on my homepage. I have never notified them otherwise. They, as distinguished from liars and sycophants online, have never notified me to the contrary. Scanned orignials at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm The other two letters were related to the Detroit local spiritual assembly and its junk mail. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:35 PM Subject: Baha'u'llah is the Prophet of God for mankind in this day Baha'u'llah is the Prophet of God for mankind in this day and age. He Himself laid the foundation for the Universal House of Justice, hampered, thank God, though it be, by the loss of the Guardian. I trust that, in the long run of history, He will not leave his institution to itself but will lead it back, through perhaps the compelling Vision of his Writings and the devoted consciences of his followers, to its humble, modest, and balanced role as his legislative body. I have never repudiated my belief in Baha'u'llah nor the legitimacy of his institutions. That some benighted individual bahais have temporarily distorted the bahai faith into a hideous form of fanaticism and fundamentalism does not negate the Truth of his Revelation and its saving grace for this nihilistic desert. https://fglaysher.com/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:36 PM Subject: bahai- Two Messages to bahai Taliban bahai- Two Messages to bahai Taliban --------------------------------------------------------------- This file contains two messages: "to uhj 12-10-99," "to uhj 7-24-1998": From: Patrick Henry Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights of Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed would never be violated in their religion. I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; indeed, the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending Baha'u'llah'sTeachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his Revelation. -- Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.)From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message regarding: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Patrick Henry patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor ; bahai-faith @ makelist.com Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM July 24,1998 Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in Iran would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the international community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, always courting the President and other members of the government, has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents as I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many individuals, Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within the Bahai community and administration. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more than ayear and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat twice now, along with thecollusion of other Bahais, the creation of an unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under Bahai-Discuss Archives. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/BCCAmenu.htm Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA has approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban for more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding talk.religion.bahai. The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," if you will, of Bahai censorship? -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:37 PM Subject: bahai - Slandering & Backbiting US Academics bahai - Slandering & Backbiting US Academics As a sample of the extreme views opposing free speech and academic freedom held by the uhj and its fundamentalists on talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere, see below the text of the uhj's letter circulated behind Cole's back, slandering and backbiting him within the bahai community. There have now been many American bahai academics who have received this type of treatment and been driven out of the bahai faith in one way or another, a fact the uhj seeks to conceal from the United Nations and US government officials. For Cole's comments and response, see this link: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---- 3 August 1999 From: Department of the Secretariat Baha'i World Center Dear Baha'i Friend, Clearly, no one would dispute the right of Dr. Cole to write and publish whatever work a publisher is prepared to handle. Nor has anyone questioned the right of a Baha'i who is interested in such a book to purchase it. To suggest that the House of Justice is saying otherwise would be to seriously misconstrue the nature of its concern . . . As a participant in various Internet discussion groups over the past five years, and particularly in the last year or two, you cannot but be aware from these exchanges that Dr. Cole has embarked on a deliberate assault against the Baha'i Cause, in which he has not hesitated to attack its institutions, to misrepresent its fundamental teachings, and to abuse thetrust of Baha'is who had been led to believe that they were engaged with him in a detached and scholarly search for the truth. These same Internetexchanges exposed you, like other participants, to a flood of calumny and invective against a great many of your fellow believers, on the part of Dr. Cole, that is scarcely credible in rational discourse. Had such a book as Modernity and the Millennium been written by a disinterested non-Baha'i scholar, its misconception of the nature of Baha'u'llah's Mission and its other shortcomings would have represented no more than understandable weaknesses of an honest attempt to explore a religious phenomenon as yet little understood in the West. Indeed, in this context, such an attempt to make the Baha'i Faith comprehensible to the Western academic mind, however inadequate it might appear to knowledgeable Baha'i scholars, would surely have earned its author a measure of genuine Baha'i appreciation for the writing and research skills deployed in devising it. As you -- like other participants in certain Internet discussion groups -- are well aware, however, the book's author is not a disinterested scholar. Rather, he is a deeply embittered individual who, as his book was in preparation, had just denounced in the most intemperate language an apparent twenty-year allegiance to Baha'u'llah, in the wake of a failed attempt on his part to impose his private ideological agenda on the Baha'i community's study of Baha'u'llah's Message. Modernity and the Millennium represents an effort to provide the current stage of this long-running scheme with the underpinnings of scholarly rationalization. What is this rationalization? Although distorted by its evasion of Baha'i Texts that contradict its main assertions, and blurred by reliance on speculations peculiar to its author's purpose, the thesis appears to run somewhat as follows: Baha'u'llah's work and Writings represent essentially one of several efforts by Middle East thinkers to work out a "response" to the challenges posed by European modernity in the form of rationalism, revolution, nationalism, economic upheaval, feminism and other contemporary developments. Although Oriental in origin, this particular "response", in contrast to various others, was unusually "progressive", "liberal", "idealistic", even "radical". Because it "grew up" in a congenial modernist era, its Author was able gradually to adjust and revise the ideas with which He had been "grappling", through benefiting (in a manner generally insinuated rather than explicitly stated) from successive interactions with other thinkers and movements. By 1862, apparently in order to deal with the problem of religious exclusivity in the Muslim world, and in response to some form of "private mystical experience", He "decided to make a prophetic claim of his own" . . . The Covenant, the distinguishing feature of Baha'u'llah's Revelation, has been made the central target of this effort (a maneuver that Dr. Cole's book is at particular pains to shore up). Although forced to acknowledge theappointments of `Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian as Interpreters of Baha'u'llah's Message, every effort has been made to call such authoritative interpretation into question wherever it presents a problem for the notions being promoted. Similarly, although ostensibly acknowledging that the Universal House of Justice is Head of the Baha'i Faith today, this opposition has tried by every means possible to undermine the broad authority conferred in Baha'u'llah's own words and emphasized in the Master's Will and Testament. (In Dr. Cole's book, this agenda makes its appearance in the conclusion: namely, that the Faith founded by Baha'u'llah has failed in its mission because, like "the Khomeinist state in Iran", it has been somehow captured by "fundamentalists", by which term Dr. Cole has repeatedly characterized the members of the Universal House of Justice.) . . . With loving Baha'i greetings, Department of the Secretariat ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:37 PM Subject: bahai - New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 bahai - New Mexico LAWSUIT against bahai institutions for FRAUD & LIBEL 3/2/2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuit.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitResponse.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NMLawsuitAttorney.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AmicusC.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:38 PM Subject: soc.religion.bahai CENSORSHIP soc.religion.bahai CENSORSHIP https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb.htm Robert J. Pease, December 5, 1998: "I support your efforts to expose SRB as a fundamentalist group." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb84.htm Ron House: "I think the following is a clear case of malicious rejection of an article by the worst of the moderators of soc.religion.bahai." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb53.htm Timothy Mulligan: "(Sigh) Fred, I'm beginning to think you're right about those SRB moderators." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb59.htm RobertNik: "these guys are pompous arseholes IMHO." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb54.htm Bruce Burrill: "What are Baha'i afraid of?" https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb60.htm Zuteflute: "Frankly I could not see anything in the letter I wrote which would prompt someone to ask whether or not I am a Baha'i." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb50.htm YU ZIR: "But as an outsider, I can perhaps see the point Fred Glaysher is making, and which point none of SRB's defenders seem to address." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb46.htm Matthew Cromer: "The current moderators regulate the contents--posting articles which they agree with...." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb47.htm Kavosh Soltani, December 9, 1998:"So many Bahais on these forumshave shown to be ready to forget logic and reason, ignore clear evidence and Word of God, and come up with exactly the same line of tired and inaccurate excuses and arguments to justify their position, that it can not be a simple coincidence."https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb77.htm Shakti3, December 4, 1998: "Sorry to hear that you've been surpressed on srb. Your comments were alway very "right on." Altho it does not surprise me one bit, seeing the way these newsgroups operate." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Ex7.htm Harold Shinsato: "It seems like there is an oppression over the Baha'i Faith." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb33.htm Steve Tomljenovic, December 3, 1998: "The moderators are a bit overzealous at times. Since all the controversy started, it has gotten worse." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb79.htm Laeterna: "To say I was flabberghasted at this type of "moderating" was putting it mildly indeed." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/censored2.htm Robin Peters: "I think you're to be commended for your persistence in the face of consistent censorship." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb43.htm jgoldberg: "I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. " https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb57.htm Ruletherod, November 17, 1998: "Too much damage has already been done in the name and to the name of Baha'u'llah by right-wing administrative bullies, linear-thinking apologists, and doctrinaire-fundamentalists. You can't just blame it all on the critics." https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb76.htm Many other similar messages may be found on my web site under soc.religion.bahai censorship. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb.htm -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:38 PM Subject: FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions for Alt.Religion.Bahai, Talk.Religion.Bahai FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions for Alt.Religion.Bahai, Talk.Religion.Bahai This FAQ will be reposted approximately every two weeks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ People with only web access might want to use https://groups.google.com/ It offers reading and posting capabilities for people who can't directly access alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai. Alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai are available on America Online (AOL) Keyword, Newsgroups, then search for alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai An unmoderated Italian Bahai newgroup is now available: it.cultura.religioni.bahai If your ISP does not offer talk.religion.bahai, follow this news.groupie advice: "If your ISP doesn't have the group shortly, I suggest that you ask the newsmaster there to add it (Try news@isp.net, or newsmaster@isp.net) Ask politely. Include the msg ID of the results posting, and of the newgroup msg." Dave Cornejo's RESULT posting: https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=431106082&CONTEXT=918305125.781648012&hi tnum=0 David Lawrence's newgroup msg creating talk.religion.bahai: https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=434026333&CONTEXT=918304600.713490686&hi tnum=3 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ NOTE: Not all people agree on the interpretations given below. Question #1 "Why create arb or t.r.b.?" ANSWER #1: Because many people believe they experienced or are continuing to experience censorship when attempting to post to soc.religion.bahai. See the quotations from Abdu'l-Baha: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ANSWER #2: Because the Bahai writings support free speech and religious conscience. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ANSWER #3: [fill in the blank according to your own opinion.] Question #2: "Why do the srb moderators oppose trb?" ANSWER: Perhaps they'll supply an answer to place here. (Three years later their NO votes are their only answer.) Question #3: "Are Bahais opposed to freedom of speech andconscience?" ANSWER: Despite glowing words of love and support for other people's opinions, despite the Universal House of Justice stating at least publicly it is not opposed to an unmoderated forum, the record of actual behavior by Bahais and on soc.religion.bahai and the experience of TENS of THOUSANDS of Bahais and people who have left the Bahai Faith give serious reason for concern. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chronology of major events: talk.religion.bahai ---------------------------------------------------------------------- January 17, 1997: The 1st proposal for talk.religion.bahai was submitted to news.announce.newgroups. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/1stRFD.htm Early March 1997: Mark Towfiq, chairman of the BCCA, the Bahai Computer and Communication Association, posts to three Bahai-only mailing lists a call for Bahais to vote NO against talk.religion.bahai. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Towfiq.htm March 1997: soc.religion.bahai bans all discussion of talk.religion.bahai from its newsgroup. This ban is still in effect more than a year and a half later. March 31, 1997: The 1st proposal was defeated 157 YES to 691 NO. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/1stRESULT.htm April 3, 1997: Jonathan Grobe, a non-Bahai, creates alt.religion.bahai. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/arb.htm October 14, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases a message stating it has no objection to unmoderated newsgroups: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ1.htm November 1997: At a time when discussion was highly favorable in support of talk.religion.bahai, the BCCA deprives Frederick Glaysher of access to the private Bahai-only mailing list bahai-discuss and all of its other lists, inflaming Bahai passions against trb. See bahai-discuss archived files and correspondence between Frederick Glaysher and the BCCA committee: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/archive.htm December 19, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases a message that suggests it does not understand the nature of Usenet interest polling: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ2.htm January 12, 1998: The 2nd proposal for talk.religion.bahai was submitted. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/2ndRFD.htm February 22, 1998: The 2nd proposal was defeated 109 YES to 65 NO. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/2ndRESULT.htm May 25, 1998: srb bans all messages from Frederick Glaysher that contain his signature file: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb23.htm September 9,1998: America Online (AOL) places a Bahai-inspired TOS against Frederick Glaysher; AOL removes the TOS after considering both sides of the issue, i.e., Bahai messages attacking and threatening him and the experience of others: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm September 14, 1998: soc.religion.bahai extends its ban on Frederick Glaysher's signature file to include all signature files and URLs from all posters, allowing only email addresses and the name of the poster: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srbban.htm October 14, 1998: Soc.religion.bahai moderator Bill Hyman backbites and casts aspersions on proponent Ron House and attempts to undermine the new support for the "neutral" RFD: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/srb67.htm December 3, 1998: The Call For Votes (CFV) was posted to news.announce.newgroups and news.groups for the 3rd interest poll for talk.religion.bahai. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/3rdRFD.htm December 7, 1998: Bahai scholar Susan Maneck begins her NO vote campaign on AOL and alt.religion.bahai. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm January 10, 1999: Talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63. https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/3rdRESULT.htm It should be noted that talk.religion.bahai eventually passed despite of the opposition of Bahais. The annotated RESULT may be read at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/3rdRESULT.htm The annotated NO voters list may be read at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/NOvoters3rd.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------ For past discussion of censorship on soc.religion.bahai and other issues, including censorship within the Bahai community, see the website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:39 PM Subject: Why I Crosspost to Four Newsgroups Why I Crosspost to Four Newsgroups My crossposts to soc.culture.israel, soc.culture.iranian, talk.religion.misc, soc.culture.indian are entirely within the acceptable parameters for crossposting to newsgroups related to the subject at hand: The bahai faith *began* in Iran in 1844, the major bahai religious sites and institutions are *located* in HAIFA *Israel*, *all* religions may join discussion on talk.religion.misc, and the bahai administration regularly LIES to people about the number of Indians who have converted to the bahai faith, especially in regard to the new bahai house of worship in New Delhi. The unsuspecting public ought to be informed and have the opportunity to judge and decide the facts for itself. It should be evident to any intelligent person that bahai fundamentalists have a hidden agenda and their self-interest in mind when they malign me and many, many other people on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet.com, and elsewhere. Since fundamentalists among my fellow bahais have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere, and the Internet now no longer makes that possible, as dramatically demonstrated with the former USSR and China, the "universal" house of "justice," like other totalitarian regimes, will have to confront and answer for the consequences of its own hypocrisy. Slandering me for "spamming" also won't prevent perceptive people from realizing what's really going on.... Those interested in judging independently for themselves my background and whether I'm "unbalanced," as bahai fundamentalist struggle to portray me, may do so by reading my Biographical Note: https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm I believe it is my duty, bahai and otherwise, to inform my fellow citizens, local and global, of the appalling and incessant hypocrisy that lies behind the deceptively progressive facade that the uhj regularly fobs off on the unsuspecting public.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:42 PM Subject: bahai - Why I Don't Respond to bahai Fundamentalistsbahai - Why I Don't Respond to bahai Fundamentalists bahai - Why I Don't Respond to bahai Fundamentalists Having observed the tactics of bahai fundamentalists for over twenty-five years, I've learnt a few things about the way they operate: 1. Always Demonize, Smear, Slander, Discredit, Shun, Revile, Suppress, Attack, Bully, Intimidate, Threaten, Malign, Silence, Harass, etc., etc., the individual.... All of which has become known as "The Bahai Technique": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm 2. Lure into supposed discussion then cut the jugular. 3. Work together to create the perception for uninformed non-bahais that the individual in question is unbalanced, aberrant, "spamming," a liar, crazy, disgruntled, reprobate, etc.... 4. Change or ignore the subject by shifting to the past and arguing over who said what, when, where, how, etc.... As long as the uhj uses the "temporary measure" of "review," for over 80 years now, to suppress all free thought and discussion and encourages such unseemly tactics, attempting to discuss anything with them is simply a waste of time and energy. Many people other than myself have noted "The Bahai Technique": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm Nobody has to read my reposts who has done so already. My Message Rules are full of bahai fundamentalists. Others may use the same technology to filter out my reposts. My reposts are intended for the uninformed and naive, exactly what enrages the extremists among my fellow bahais. Anyone interested in my views may read them in my archives or glean them from my reposts, which, in my view, preserve the historical record of how low bahai fanatics have been and are willing to go.... I can only hope by serving humbly, as the self-appointed archivist/historian for talk.religion.bahai and for all the many victims of the "universal" house of "justice," that someday someone will come along who will dig deep enough into the record so that the truth will begin to surface. Impartial nonbahai observers might wish to compare and decide for themselves whether the picture fundamentalists labor so hard to paint of me is accurate or not: https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm And then ask yourself why would they go to such extremes? What is it they don't want you to know? I submit the answers may be found on my bahai website. It is my hope that the distortions of the uhj will begin to be purged, it will gradually reform itself, acknowledging the broad and liberal Teachings of Baha'u'llah that it has suppressed now for so many years.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:35 AM Subject: bahai - Maneck's fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards bahai - Maneck's fundamentalist grip on AOL bahai message boards "Recently, Dr. Maneck, A.K.A. LDRS LFST, Shahid, on America Online's Baha'i Faith Message Board posted the following...." What may be expected from such a bahai community "leader" on AOL may be judged from Ms. Maneck's past treatment of opinions other than her own: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck1.htm See her slandering other views as garbage: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck3.htm See her slandering other views as litter: https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Maneck7.htm See also messages related to her abuse of her AOL "position" : https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOLcensorship1.htm Continuing AOL Censorship by bahais 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL2001.htm Those tired of Maneck posting her URL on AOL should see the relevant thread at Question to Community Leaders. Or call and complain at 800-827-6364. Also complain at Keyword Notify AOL, Message Boards, and then Ask the Staff, works well too. It goes over Maneck's head, as I was told on the phone. Similarly, email "Steve Case" from an AOL account, stevecase@aol.com I urge you also to write AOL Customer Service, which I was told would definitely investigate the matter if contacted through regularly mail: AOL Customer Service PO Box 10810 Herdon, VA 20170 Incidentally, when you email the TOSGeneral from anywhere in bahai AOL space it may in fact go directly to Maneck, nobody else, so I was told by an AOL representative, which is again why you have to go around her now if you're tired of her manipulating TOS rules and employing her double standards on many fronts. SHE'S the TOSGeneral!! No wonder nothing results.... As a bahai for over 25 years, I'm very tired of her dishonest manipulation of AOL and wish AOL would replace her with an honest person who fairly allows all views to be heard. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:36 AM Subject: - IMPROVE IT! - Your bahai Newgroup Experience Your bahai Newgroup Experience - IMPROVE IT! Assuming you use IE5, click on Tools, then Message Rules, followed by News. Add for talk.religion.bahai and for alt.religion.bahai the email addresses or names of the bahai fundamentalists and fanatics of your choice: smaneck@aol.com bighappymonkey@yahoo.com rlittle95@my-deja.com rlittle1@socal.rr.com kohliCUT@ameritel.net kohliCUT_THE_CAPS@ameritel.net mspmenge@msn.com postmaster@ishop-usa.com brieze_way@nospam.hotmail.com patk9018@my-deja.com RSSchaut@email.msn.NOSPAMcom saman@ticnet.com mee@tsn.cc roger@rreini.com dr.walker@fsandp.remove.com Click on Apply Now. Further word of advice based on several years online in bahai cyberspace: Also add them to Blocked Senders List. There are others you might want to add. Despite the hounding of the fundamentalists, the names above do not appear in any rank order. One of the best things about IE5 is that it is so easy to add fundamentalists as they show up or adopt false identities.... -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:38 AM Subject: bahai - Why Maneck Hates University of Michigan Prof. Juan Cole bahai - Why Maneck Hates University of Michigan Prof. Juan Cole Having a first-rate intellect, he's written a book worth reading.... bahai - "Modernity and the Millennium" - Columbia Univ Press by Juan Ricardo Cole (available on Amazon) In his conclusion, which would never have passed the system of censorship, "Bahai review," that the UHJ imposes on all publications brought out under its tight control, Professor Cole, of the Department of History at the University of Michigan, quite accurately identifies the distortions that have been wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings: "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriarchy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed." (196) Cole himself and many others have suffered at the hands of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the religion: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement." (201) These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai on Usenet for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. Both my and Cole's websites provide essential documentation along these lines. It should be noted that the Universal House of Justice has actively worked through the BCCA (Bahai Computer and Communications Association) to suppress all links to websites with other than its own "comprehensive" point of view on such major portals as Yahoo.com, Excite.com, and other search engines. The UHJ has gone even further by advising Bahais to remove any link whatsoever to Professor Cole's website. As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. The UHJ is also in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums of public discussion. Professor Cole's Modernity and the Millennium will remain, for many years to come, the most important book available on the Baha'i Faith. His discussion of its historical development within the intellectual milieu of progressive 19th Century thought is particularly brilliant and insightful. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:39 AM Subject: WARNING - Psychological WAR ZONE - WARNING - Psychological WAR ZONE - WARNING - Psychological WAR ZONE - WARNING - Psychological WAR ZONE - Those new to talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai might want to consider that they have entered a psychological war zone, one in which bahai fundamentalists have been attempting for at least five years to portray many fellow bahais and non-bahais in exceedingly negative terms. A more than decade-long record of this psychological, spiritual battle may be quickly skimmed, or read to the degree of your interest, at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:40 AM Subject: "That includes blowing the whistle on coercion, "That includes blowing the whistle on coercion, manipulation and abuse by Baha'i administrators of innocent adherents. I plead for all right thinking and compassionate persons to join me in trying to reform the Baha'i administration by critiquing it. It is out of kilter. Its members know it is out of kilter. It needs to be righted. Kowtowing only keeps it out of kilter." Professor Juan Cole, October 12, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole19.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:41 AM Subject: "Obviously, there are thousands of Baha'is who do not share the current "Obviously, there are thousands of Baha'is who do not share the current uhj's fundamentalist mindset, and they can't put them all on trial, so most of you are probably safe enough. Their tactic appears to be to identify persons who are persistent posters and who therefore are becoming "prominent," with whom they disagree about their vision of the Baha'i faith, and then to target them in hopes of either silencing them or forcing them out of the religion. They probably also hope that a few such publicized cases will scare every other non-fundamentalist into silence, as well. If so, they haven't dealt with many Americans." Juan Cole, December 03, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/anonymous.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:41 AM Subject: bahai - Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative bahai - Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative Any group of people who can take the words of Abdu'l-Baha below and make of them what the uhj has during the last decade is little better than the Taliban, in my opinion.... "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of creation, and manifestation of the hidden verities of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants. So in the world of existence two persons unanimous in all grades [of thought] and all beliefs cannot be found." --Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:42 AM Subject: bahai - "These are the people who sent their man to my own home to bahai - "These are the people who sent their man to my own home to interrogate me and then had me (a well known professor of Middle East Studies at a major university!) threatened with being shunned unless I fell silent! If that isnt' the coercion of conscience then I don't know what is!" Professor Juan Cole, January 31, 1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole72.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:43 AM Subject: bahai - "Shunning is the marker of a cult . . . note that these are all bahai - "Shunning is the marker of a cult . . . note that these are all relatively small cults and none of them will ever really amount to anything in mainstream society." "I think shunning is a human rights abuse. It may be legal (in non-tort situations), but then, lots of human rights abuses are legal. I don't see the difference between the Mafia organizing a conspiracy to have someone's restaurant boycotted unless he pays protection money, and a religious organization threatening to prevent someone from seeing his coreligionist relatives at reunions unless he is blindly obedient to them. Both are forms of coercion that invade privacy and detract from the autonomy and dignity of the individual." - Professor Juan Cole, February 12, 1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole54.htm I myself see no difference between the malice and deceit that actuated the WTC terrorists and the endemic dishonesty of bahai ao fundamentalists.... The underlying dynamics are the same. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:43 AM Subject: "Abdu'l-Baha clearly advocated not only freedom of conscience but "Abdu'l-Baha clearly advocated not only freedom of conscience but also freedom of *speech* and a democratic society." Juan Cole, December 03, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Freedom2.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:44 AM Subject: bahai - "Suppression (that is what it was) of Dialogue magazine by bahai - "Suppression (that is what it was) of Dialogue magazine by Kazemzadeh and Henderson." Professor Juan Cole, May 13, 1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Cole30.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:45 AM Subject: bahai - "....right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they bahai - "....right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute." --Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan Full text at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm -- The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:51 AM Subject: Re: The bahai Taliban - fanatics running amok The bahai Taliban For the record, I said and say the bahai uhj is "little better" than the WTC terrorists. That, in my reading, acknowledges they're not yet quite as despicable, though I believe, given their record, it is not unlikely, at this juncture, that they'll devolve into similar violence as well. The hatred animating the person in question further substantiates it. One may slander and lie for years about my status as a bahai, write an obscenely filthy message clearly intended to discredit me with unsuspecting non-bahais, manipulate AOL, distort out of context my messages, and that's entirely acceptable, in bahai fundamentalist quarters.... I certainly don't believe any claims, including putative apologies, made by the person in question and who wrote this message: https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain Non-bahais might also want to look at "The Bahai Technique": https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:52 AM Subject: bahai - Terrorism & OFF- ONline Stalking bahai - Terrorism & OFF- ONline Stalking After twenty-five years as a member of the bahai faith, I see *little* difference between the basic underlying fanaticism of the perpetrators of the WTC terrorist attack and the fundamentalism of the worst elements among my fellow bahais. I cite Dave Fiorito's intolerant, threatening, hateful post as further EVIDENCE, along with much of the documentation on my website. https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain In my view, only the uhj can begin to remedy this situation by abolishing the censorship of "review" and ceasing to interpret out of existence of the moderate and liberal Teachings on free speech and conscience, thereby by setting a new direction and tone for the faith. Realism requires me to acknowledge it's very unlikely ever to happen.... I consider it my duty, as a bahai and otherwise, to inform my fellow believers and citizens of how grave matters truly stand within what purports to be Baha'u'llah's religion. Some of the evidence may be found at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/hate.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/CHarassment.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/BahaiThreatsLawsuit.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/BahaiAttacksonme.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/AOL.htm https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Ex.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ ---------- From: BIGS - Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing[SMTP:patrick_henry@liberty.com] Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 7:57 AM Subject: bahai - LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, bahai - LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, bahai - LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES bahai - LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, LIES, "Dave Fiorito" wrote in message news:f0853486.0111051240.4d5df95e@posting.google.com... > You guys are both overlooking the fact that Fred requested to be > removed. Why would the NSA confirm something for which they were > given a written request. > > Fred asked - they did what he asked - end of story. AGAIN, this allegation is an unmitiaged LIE, a twisting and distorting of what happended in order to fit the fanaticism and hatred that runs rife in fundamentalist bahai circles. For details regarding what I did request see below. I have NEVER requested to be removed from the bahai rolls nor denied my belief in Baha'u'llah. The tactic of denying my membership is the bahai faith by this fundamentalist is clearly calculated to discredit my criticism of censorship regularly imposed by the bahai institutions. I invite those interested in the truth to read my account below and to consider that the same person who is making such a slanderous claim is the one who wrote the vulgar attack on me available at https://groups.google.com/groups?selm=f0853486.0109141001.2fd2b8c%40posting.google.com&output=gplain In 1996 my request to the circulation department for the American Bahai, repeated twice and perhaps a third time, read, "Please remove my name and address from your mailing list." I had torn off the preprinted address change label regularly published on the back page of the American Bahai and mailed it into the address given for subscription changes. I asked for nothing other than my name and address to be removed from the mailing list--no gloss, no explanation, no complaint, no threat, etc.... Dermod Ryder's speculation that willingness to receive the American Bahai has become compulsory should give pause.... Again, note well, I used the address on the back of the American Bahai given specifically for handling subscription addresses. I did not write the nsa, its secretary, etc. My communication was limited to the simplest of requests: remove my name and address from your mailing list. Not a word or suggestion about withdrawing from the Bahai Faith, nor any criticism of it whatsoever, real nor implied. I conveyed my wishes to the proper address, as announced in the American Bahai itself. That I received a response back from an entirely different address speaks volumes, as they say. After six years, I believe the time is now right to release it publicly. I've scanned the letter so others might read the original. I am not about to accept the slander and backbiting of fanatics and fundamentalists nor allow them to provoke me into one action or another. I prefer the facts: Again, I declared my belief in Baha'u'llah in 1976 and notified the nsa, who sent me back the declaration card available on my homepage. I have never notified them otherwise. They, as distinguished from liars and sycophants online, have never notified me to the contrary. Scanned orignials at https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm The other two letters were related to the Detroit local spiritual assembly and its junk mail. See my message below for other relevant details. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/ Bahai in *Perfectly* Good Standing Despite the slander of many fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, I have been a member of the bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my main bahai page. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. The reason the uhj allows and encourages fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to backbite and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, BeliefNet, and elsewhere may be discovered in the four messages below: To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/UHJ72498.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/uhj12-10-99.htm Open Petition for Baha'i Reformation February 8, 2001 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/Reformation.htm My Request Not to Receive the American Bahai 1996 https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/nsa1996.htm -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.fortunecity.com/bahaicensorship/