From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 6:04 AM Subject: Millennium Summit, Forum, Assembly, Sept 5-8, 2000 As an accredited participant, I attended the United Nations Millennium Forum of civil society organizations from May 22-26, 2000. Some may be interested in knowing that bahais were central to the event which produced a report to advise heads of state to the Millennium Summit this September at the United Nations - the first such gathering of so many national heads since WW II. "The final edited version of the "We the Peoples Millennium Forum Declaration and Agenda for Action" has now been posted to the Forum's Website. This version includes ... several final additions that were adopted by the Forum on Friday, 26 May 2000 during its final session." It can be found through links at: https://www.millenniumforum.org as well as directly at: https://www.millenniumforum.org/html/papers/mfd26May.htm RealPlayer video of several Millennium Forum sessions, including Techeste Ahderom, co-chair of the forum and principal representative to the United Nations, bahai international community: https://www.un.org/millennium/summit1.htm Also some might find Kofi Annan's "We the Peoples," his official recommendations that will serve as the basis for this September's Millennium Summit, interesting: https://www.un.org/millennium/sg/report/ The uhj, in it's ridvan [April] 2000 message, jubilantly celebrated their increase of power, control, and influence at the United Nations: "It must be a source of great satisfaction to Baha'is everywhere that the Baha'i International Community as an NGO representing a cross-section of humankind has won such trust as a unifying agent in major discussions shaping the future of humankind. Our principal representative at the United Nations was appointed to co-chair the Committee on Non-Governmental Organizations, which was established by the Economic and Social Council--a position that is giving the Baha'i International Community a leading role in the organization of the Millennium Forum. This gathering, called by UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan and scheduled to be held in May, will give organizations of civil society an opportunity to formulate views and recommendations on global issues which will be taken up at the subsequent Millennium Summit in September of this year to be attended by heads of state and government." https://www.bahai-library.org/published.uhj/ridvan/index.html It was quite an experience hearing Techeste Ahderom, the bahai representative and Forum co-chair, in the UN General Assembly Hall, urging hypocritically the importance of strengthening human rights throughout the world.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 7:14 AM Subject: Charter & FAQ - (Re: << bahai >> newcomer) The Charter for talk.religion.bahai may be found at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRFD.htm My own personal trb FAQ my be found at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/FAQ.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Michel Boucher wrote in message news:UpHk5.47720$qS3.94022@tor-nn1.netcom.ca... > rlittle95@my-deja.com a écrit dans <8mv65r$969$1@nnrp1.deja.com>: > > >Hi Michel > > > >I have read thousands of articles on these newsgroups, and one of > >the very best and most insightful was written by Rick Schaut. It had > >to do with the institution of the Auxiliary Board. > > Were the words "thesis" and "ad hominem" used in it in their proper > context? :-) > > By the way, is there a charter and an FAQ for this group? > > >I agree that it may seem as if he has been forced to drink too much > >Seattle's finest lately, but never think he doesn't have at least > >one or two brain cells in operation at any given time. Additionally, > >I know him to be warm and caring. He just goes to the wrong coffee > >house, and spends his idle time bailing out a sailboat when he could > >be falling off a mountain bike. Yikes. > > You ask me to believe something I doubt from documentary evidence. Let > me say two things and be done with it: > > 1. Being warm and caring is not a quality unknown to very authoritarian > people. It's called paternalism and is often confused for > humanitarianism. If you doubt that, see (as one example) the work done > around the encyclical Rerum novarum (promulgated in 1891) where the > Church of Rome, a relatively conservative organization, made it binding > upon employers to promote the creation of workers' unions. Its real > purpose was to undermine the effects of politicization of the working > classes by Communists. > > 2. Asking me to believe something so personal which you state here is a > dangerous game, because I can ask *you* to believe something I would > say and know to be true which you would reject, so let's not get into > it. > > --------------- > > "Eating fries with cheese makes sense, mon eustsi." > > Guy > > To send private mail, get the zed out. > ICQ: 69205479 (take the five out) ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 7:35 AM Subject: Continuing Relevance of The Bahai Technique "The Bahai Technique": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 7:40 AM Subject: bahai Biographical Note Impartial nonbahai observers might wish to compare and decide for themselves whether the picture fundamentalists labor so hard to paint of me is accurate or not: https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm And then ask yourself why would they go to such extremes? What is it they don't want you to know? I submit the answers may be found on my bahai webpages.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 1:03 PM Subject: Re: Charter & FAQ - (Re: << bahai >> newcomer) They all on my main bahai webpage under Talk.Religion.Bahai finally passed on 3rd Vote - 218: 63 Talk.Religion.Bahai passed Jan 17 1997 - All related RFDs & Results, Documents (On the right, near the bottom) Or: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/trbmenu.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Michel Boucher wrote in message news:tqTk5.48096$qS3.94516@tor-nn1.netcom.ca... > Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com (Patrick Henry) a écrit dans > <5cRk5.64569$fR2.673325@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com>: > > >https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRFD.htm > > Interesting. Do you have the vote results and an FAQ? > > --------------- > > "Eating fries with cheese makes sense, mon eustsi." > > Guy > > To send private mail, get the zed out. > ICQ: 69205479 (take the five out) ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 7:17 AM Subject: Re: Charter & FAQ - (Re: << bahai >> newcomer) What's your opinion? -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Michel Boucher" wrote in message news:%UXk5.48163$qS3.94615@tor-nn1.netcom.ca... > Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com (Patrick Henry) a écrit dans > : > > >They all on my main bahai webpage under > > > >Talk.Religion.Bahai finally passed on 3rd Vote - 218: 63 > >Talk.Religion.Bahai passed Jan 17 1997 - All related RFDs & Results, > >Documents > > > >(On the right, near the bottom) > > > >Or: > >https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/trbmenu.htm > > Thanks. That's a fairly hefty pro vote for this group and its mandate. > > Very interesting to check the list of "losers". I did the same for a > proposed discussion group titled "rec.food.cooking.vegetables" which > was proposed (in the Big Eight, no less) as a corporate sponsored group > by an employee of Bird's Eye and a techie stooge. Fully half those who > voted "yes" (total of 48) had never posted to Usenet before (as per > deja). The group was defeated 300+ to 48 or so. It was, it seems, one > of the largest recorded NO votes in recent Usenet history. > > I'd be interested to know your opinion, as prime proponent, as to > whether this group is fulfilling its purpose as originally defined. > > --------------- > > "Eating fries with cheese makes sense, mon eustsi." > > Guy > > To send private mail, get the zed out. > ICQ: 69205479 (take the five out) ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 10:04 AM Subject: K. Paul Johnson on The Bahai Technique "But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence." --K. Paul Johnson Full text via https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 10:22 AM Subject: character assassination (Re: K. Paul Johnson on The Bahai Technique) Incidentally, The Bahai Technique has been revised and reformatted for easy printing. Please feel free to circulate and disbribute it offline too. "But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence." --K. Paul Johnson Full text via https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 10:52 AM Subject: bahai - Backbiting Slander I have been a member of the bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be foundon my main bahai page. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. The reason the uhj allows and encourages fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to backbite and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, and elsewhere may be discovered in the three messages below: To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJ72498.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/uhj12-10-99.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 8:52 AM Subject: Re: bahai - Backbiting Slander Havibakhshi, Thank you for sharing your experience and views. You have a rare inside perspective on these matters. I must say I believe I have the utmost respect for your courage to speak out about such matters. I know few of my fellow bahais have your honesty and integrity. And your criticism and insight into "BA FARHANG" is rare indeed. Thank you for sharing it with us. It is very much what I and other bahais find repulsive about bahai "community life." If interested, you may glean my own respect and knowledge of Western culture from my literary and genealogy pages (under brief bio). https://fglaysher.com/literary.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "S. Havibakhshi" wrote in message news:0b68e33c.caa2f038@usw-ex0105-037.remarq.com... > OK, I've just had a look at one of those links. This tidbit: > > > The > resorting to deceit and back-channel communication by > the > moderators of soc.religion.bahai > > > Is not surprising to me at all, and I can really sympathize with > you now. > > You see, sadly enough, this is an Iranian cultural trait: > backbiting, slyness, dishonesty and authoritarianism. Religion > doesn't necessarilly have anything to do with it. > > When it comes right down to it, Bahai Iranians aren't any better > than Muslim Iranians (although they certainly think that they > are). Iranian culture is found among all Iranians, even Christian > and Jewish Iranians. (I hesitate to say anything about > Zorastrians, because I have no experience with them.) > > While your average, respectable and successful American wouldn't > think that being sneaky and clever are great virtues that he > should brag about, his Iranian counterpart does. > > > It is unfortuenate for me to say this, since I am half-Iranian > through my father. But it is quite common to see even among > well-to-do Iranians, and those who consider themselves > westernized, educated and cultured (their favorite little term > for this is "BA FARHANG"), that it is a great mark of pride to > have acted cleverly, or to have lied cleverly, or to have > manipulated someone cleverly. > > They sit around and brag about it, in fact. All about how much > they bought some little piece of dung for a few pennies less than > its actual value, or about how they suckered someone into doing > something that he wouldn't have ordinarilly have done, if he had > been fully aware of what was going on. > > You are probably an honest person yourself, and it is again with > great regret that I must admit that the false atmosphere of > plastic smiles and friendly lies that persists among Iranians, is > disturbed by the presence of an honest outsider. Free inquiry and > honesty have always been the enemy of falsehood and pretense, > which is probably why there is antagonism towards you. > > Any way, those are my thoughts, for whatever they are worth. > > > S. Havibakhshi > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. > Up to 100 minutes free! > https://www.keen.com > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_henry1776@my-deja.com] Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 11:43 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: bahai - Backbiting Slander Havibakshsi: Looks like you really hit a nerve with Mr. Hazini, since he's responding like one of the fundamentalists intent on discrediting you! I assure you I am not racist against Iranians. My criticisms of Iranian bahais are merely based on INDIVIDUALS I've known and watched operate within the bahai "community" for over 20 years. In that sense, I find your observations on bahais quite suggestive. My basic contention is, however, as Abdul-Baha said, evil "continues and endures," within the the bahai administration, Iranians, and, yes, alas, all peoples, which Mr. Hazini rightly points out. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm In article <8ngrk7$pe3$1@gnamma.connect.com.au>, "Nima Hazini" wrote: > > S. Havibakhshi ranted: > > > You see, sadly enough, this is an Iranian cultural trait: > > backbiting, slyness, dishonesty and authoritarianism. > > An Iranian cultural trait, is it?? This is a sweeping indictment of *one* > culture where similar traits exist among peoples of almost most *all* other > cultures in equal if not greater degree. Italians, Arabs, Greeks, Slavs, > Spaniards, Chinese, Latin Americans, ad nauseum, also exhibit the same > cultural traits of backbiting, slyness, dishonesty and authoritarianism, as > do many White Anglo Saxons of Protestant backgrounds, be they Brits, > Australians, Americans, New Zealanders, et al. I speak from first hand > experience. In short, people are pricks everywhere, regardless of culture. > > >Religion > > doesn't necessarilly have anything to do with it. > > At least we can agree on that. > > > When it comes right down to it, Bahai Iranians aren't any better > > than Muslim Iranians (although they certainly think that they > > are). Iranian culture is found among all Iranians, even Christian > > and Jewish Iranians. (I hesitate to say anything about > > Zorastrians, because I have no experience with them.) > > Zoroastrians are Iranians, after all. > > > While your average, respectable and successful American wouldn't > > think that being sneaky and clever are great virtues that he > > should brag about, his Iranian counterpart does. > > This is errant nonesense. Your average successful WASP American successful > business person would not hesitate to put one over you in a business deal if > given the chance. After all, the all powerful dollar is still the hallmark > of a dominant class in America and the Western hemisphere; a dominant class > which are predominatly white and successful business people. > > > It is unfortuenate for me to say this, since I am half-Iranian > > through my father. > > Sounds like there are serious family issues that becloud your perception of > Iranians. > > > But it is quite common to see even among > > well-to-do Iranians, and those who consider themselves > > westernized, educated and cultured (their favorite little term > > for this is "BA FARHANG"), that it is a great mark of pride to > > have acted cleverly, or to have lied cleverly, or to have > > manipulated someone cleverly. > > Again, nonesense. > > > They sit around and brag about it, in fact. All about how much > > they bought some little piece of dung for a few pennies less than > > its actual value, or about how they suckered someone into doing > > something that he wouldn't have ordinarilly have done, if he had > > been fully aware of what was going on. > > You obviously have never spent any time in the Far East. Go to Hong Kong or > Shanghai sometime. The Chinese "BA FARHANG" business people make Iranians > look like Mother Teresa in their suckering and two-faced duplicitous > dishonesty. > > > You are probably an honest person yourself, and it is again with > > great regret that I must admit that the false atmosphere of > > plastic smiles and friendly lies that persists among Iranians, is > > disturbed by the presence of an honest outsider. > > What a royal crock. You have serious background issues you need to work out, > sir. No doubt your mother had something to do with these misplaced, > hysterical views you are espousing here about a great and proud people such > as we Iranians. > > > Free inquiry and > > honesty have always been the enemy of falsehood and pretense, > > which is probably why there is antagonism towards you. > > For the record, most of the hostility that Mr. Glaysher and people like > myself have faced from Baha'i Fundamentalists has been from those Baha'is > who predominantly hail from WASP backrounds and the like. Fred, however, > seems to be somewhat of a racist when it comes to Iranians. > > > Any way, those are my thoughts, for whatever they are worth. > > Zip! > > cheers, > Nima > > -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 7:45 AM Subject: ... bahai ... Credo I believe Baha'u'llah is the Prophet of God for mankind in this day and age. He Himself laid the foundation for the Universal House of Justice, hampered, thank God, though it be, by the loss of the Guardian. I trust that, in the long run of history, He will not leave his institution to itself but will lead it back, through perhaps the compelling Vision of his Writings and the devoted consciences of his followers, to its humble, modest, and balanced role as his legislative body. I have never repudiated my belief in Baha'u'llah nor the legitimacy of his institutions. That some benighted individual bahais have temporarily distorted the bahai faith into a hideous form of fanaticism and fundamentalism does not negate the Truth of his Revelation and its saving grace for this nihilistic desert. https://fglaysher.com/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 7:47 AM Subject: Improve your bahai newsgroups experience! Click on Tools, then Message Rules, followed by News. Add for talk.religion.bahai and for alt.religion.bahai the email addresses of the bahai fundamentalists and fanatics of your choice. Click on Apply Now. Further word of advice based on over three and a half years online: Also add them to Blocked Senders List. One of the best things about IE5 is that it is so easy to add fundamentalists as they show up or adopt other false identities. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 7:53 AM Subject: "bahais don't take criticism seriously" "In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out as "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." --Gibro Full text via https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 7:58 AM Subject: Re: Censorship on Soc.Religion.Bahai "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- "This is a goodly temple and congregation, for--praise be to God!--this is a house of worship [Central Congregational Church in Brooklyn on 16 June 1912] wherein conscientious opinion has free sway. Every religion and every religious aspiration may be freely voiced and expressed here. Just as in the world of politics there is need for free thought, likewise in the world of religion there should be the right of unrestricted individual belief. Consider what a vast difference exists between modern democracy and the old forms of despotism. Under an autocratic government the opinions of men are not free, and development is stifled, whereas in a democracy, because thought and speech are not restricted, the greatest progress is witnessed. It is likewise true in the world of religion. When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization may give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are inevitable. Therefore, this is a blessed church because its pulpit is open to every religion, the ideals of which may be set forth with openness and freedom." Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, 197. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Aaron Gervais" wrote in message news:8nieg4$mu9$1@dagger.ab.videon.ca... > I don't apologize for the ignorance of fellow Bahá'ís, but I do point out > the following words of the Abha Beauty regarding the trend that is > prevailent on the two unmoderated newsgroups: > > "Nothing whatever can, in this Day, inflict greater harm upon this Cause > than dissension and strife, contention, estrangement, and apathy amongst the > loved ones of God." > -Gleanings, 9 > > Let the ignorant stumble and learn; as least they do so honestly. > > Aaron > > > wrote in message news:8ni10v$8cq$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > Inconsistancy. They've recently accepted posts to the effect that > > Baha'is have an "Official Interpreter" which reads to this fundie as > > about as anti-covenant as one could get. > > > > Given the high caliber exchanges on the unmoderated forums, such as > > yours w/ Ashtor, I don't see what the rush was to post this thoughtful > > item there. Are they discussing this there? I've read all sorts of > > things on srb lately, some which I've found quite silly. > > > > One fellow suggested that only a few selected works from the Bab could > > be accepted in intelligent discourse, and argued against accepting > > selections from even that limited selection because Denis translated > > them, Go figure! > > > > Blessings! > > - Pat > > kohli@ameritel.net > > > > In article <8nhsn5$59b$1@gnamma.connect.com.au>, > > "Nima Hazini" wrote: > > > fyi > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Nima Hazini > > > To: Albert V > > > Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 9:31 AM > > > Subject: Re: The Bab and Baha'u'llah > > > > > > You people are unbelievable! Do you have any shred of discernment to > > > understand just what it is I am arguing?! And for what it's worth, > > take your > > > skewed interpretation of the Covenant and shove it! Fundamentalist > > idiot!! > > > > > > cheers, > > > Nima > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Albert V > > > To: Nima Hazini > > > Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 6:17 AM > > > Subject: Re: The Bab and Baha'u'llah > > > > > > Nima, > > > > > > Your submission was received and will not be posted, fore > > > it argues *against* the Covenant. > > > > > > Albert Verbrugh > > > Co-Moderator > > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Nima Hazini" > > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 11:30 PM > > > Subject: Re: The Bab and Baha'u'llah > > > > > > Yes, but, the fact remains that the Bab in fact did designate Mirza > > Yahya > > > Subh-e Azal as his vicar and *legitimate* successor, i.e. wasi. And > > this is > > > the central insoluble, enigmatic issue of the Babi/Baha'i religion(s). > > The > > > document of the Bab's Will & Testament (vasiyat naameh) is very > > explicit in > > > lauding Mirza Yahya Nuri in the highest, elevated terms when > > appointing him > > > to his post. Whatever one thinks of Subh-e Azal's later schizophrenic > > > leadership style, the people around him, his ordering of the > > assassination > > > of Dayyan, and his general botch up job of maintaining a consistent > > and > > > unified Babi movement by alienating many of the prominent Babis, etc, > > the > > > fact remains that he was the Bab's wali. The Baha'i claim that the Bab > > was > > > merely attempting to deflect premature attention from Baha'u'llah, > > while an > > > interesting theory, simply does not hold much historical water in the > > face > > > of Baha'u'llah's claim in the Tablet of the Two Rivers (Lawh-e > > Shattiyeh) of > > > the 1850s where he quite specifically denies having any claim, > > station, > > > mission, etc, and where he explicitly upholds the legitimacy of > > Azal's > > > vicegerency. Perhaps Baha'u'llah was simply practicing a central creed > > of > > > the Bayani faith, i.e.taqiyyah/dissimulation. Who knows?! But the > > issues in > > > question are not as simple as the simplisticisms of "official" Baha'i > > > histories and positions. > > > While in Baha'i literature Azal has gone down as the > > arch-covenant > > > breaker of Baha'u'llah's revelation, it stands to reason that Azal > > never > > > broke any covenant. He maintained his legitimate right to the > > leadership of > > > the Babi/Bayani community throughout his life; a position bestowed > > upon him > > > by none other than the Point of Bayan, i.e. Hazrate Nuqta-ye Ula > > Siyyid `Ali > > > Muhammad Shirazi, the Bab. Perhaps the truth lies in what Rumi says in > > his > > > Masnavi, > > > > > > When colourlessness became the captive of colour, > > > A Moses went to war with Moses! > > > > > > chon bi-rangi asir-e rang shod > > > musa ba musa andar jang shod! > > > > > > cheers, > > > Nima > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 8:00 AM Subject: Censorship on Soc.Religion.Bahai FYI "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:8nhsn5$59b$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > fyi > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Nima Hazini > To: Albert V > Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 9:31 AM > Subject: Re: The Bab and Baha'u'llah > > > You people are unbelievable! Do you have any shred of discernment to > understand just what it is I am arguing?! And for what it's worth, take your > skewed interpretation of the Covenant and shove it! Fundamentalist idiot!! > > cheers, > Nima > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Albert V > To: Nima Hazini > Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 6:17 AM > Subject: Re: The Bab and Baha'u'llah > > > Nima, > > Your submission was received and will not be posted, fore > it argues *against* the Covenant. > > Albert Verbrugh > Co-Moderator > soc.religion.bahai > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nima Hazini" > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 11:30 PM > Subject: Re: The Bab and Baha'u'llah > > > Yes, but, the fact remains that the Bab in fact did designate Mirza Yahya > Subh-e Azal as his vicar and *legitimate* successor, i.e. wasi. And this is > the central insoluble, enigmatic issue of the Babi/Baha'i religion(s). The > document of the Bab's Will & Testament (vasiyat naameh) is very explicit in > lauding Mirza Yahya Nuri in the highest, elevated terms when appointing him > to his post. Whatever one thinks of Subh-e Azal's later schizophrenic > leadership style, the people around him, his ordering of the assassination > of Dayyan, and his general botch up job of maintaining a consistent and > unified Babi movement by alienating many of the prominent Babis, etc, the > fact remains that he was the Bab's wali. The Baha'i claim that the Bab was > merely attempting to deflect premature attention from Baha'u'llah, while an > interesting theory, simply does not hold much historical water in the face > of Baha'u'llah's claim in the Tablet of the Two Rivers (Lawh-e Shattiyeh) of > the 1850s where he quite specifically denies having any claim, station, > mission, etc, and where he explicitly upholds the legitimacy of Azal's > vicegerency. Perhaps Baha'u'llah was simply practicing a central creed of > the Bayani faith, i.e.taqiyyah/dissimulation. Who knows?! But the issues in > question are not as simple as the simplisticisms of "official" Baha'i > histories and positions. > While in Baha'i literature Azal has gone down as the arch-covenant > breaker of Baha'u'llah's revelation, it stands to reason that Azal never > broke any covenant. He maintained his legitimate right to the leadership of > the Babi/Bayani community throughout his life; a position bestowed upon him > by none other than the Point of Bayan, i.e. Hazrate Nuqta-ye Ula Siyyid `Ali > Muhammad Shirazi, the Bab. Perhaps the truth lies in what Rumi says in his > Masnavi, > > When colourlessness became the captive of colour, > A Moses went to war with Moses! > > chon bi-rangi asir-e rang shod > musa ba musa andar jang shod! > > cheers, > Nima > > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2000 8:36 AM Subject: Re: Brave New World > Catch up on the September edition now at: > > https://www.bahai.us.com Violators of the Holy Word!!! THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm -------- >As a result, he >has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called >talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains >about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to >post open insults and sarcasm, Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared it.... >and the moderators >asked him to re-phrase his postings. "Self-censor" would be more like it.... >He refused, and claimed >he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to >create a new newsgroup. I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... >Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion >it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost >identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow >any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. >Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there >exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as >talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions >"freely". The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > >HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com > >With the only text of the message being: > > I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai > It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when 100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is full of ignorant fanatics? You're doing a good job of it. >I would be happy to provide further information or >answer any questions about this matter. > >Regards, >Mark Towfiq > > Frederick Glaysher ------------- From: FG Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:43:04 -0500 Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling through this morass.... The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the power to change the world.... -- Frederick Glaysher ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2000 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Apologies & Amends By SRB Moderators What a farce.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:8nkig6$l6$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > fyi > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rick Boatright > To: "Nima Hazini" > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2000 1:32 AM > Subject: your rejected post > > > Please be aware that there is substantial discussion going on in the > moderators group regarding Albert's decision. It is _very_ hard to moderate > a discussion group. > > _very_ hard. Sometimes our personal beliefs get in the way of encourageing > intelligent discussion. > > Please be aware that some of us _can_ discern what you are trying to argue. > And frankly, the "Yaha was a bad man." simplistic stance of what one Baha'i > scholar likes to call "fireside Baha'is" is overly simple. Each of us makes > bozo decisions sometimes. We're working on it. > > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Albert V > To: Nima Hazini > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2000 10:47 AM > Subject: Re: The Bab and Baha'u'llah > > > Nima, > After further consultation with my fellow modes, I posted your > submission, your unpolished remarks not withstanding. > > Albert Verbrugh > Co-Moderator > soc.religion.bahai > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nima Hazini" > To: "Albert V" > Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 5:31 PM > Subject: Re: The Bab and Baha'u'llah > > > You people are unbelievable! Do you have any shred of discernment to > understand just what it is I am arguing?! And for what it's worth, take your > skewed interpretation of the Covenant and shove it! Fundamentalist idiot!! > > cheers, > Nima > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Albert V > To: Nima Hazini > Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 6:17 AM > Subject: Re: The Bab and Baha'u'llah > > > Nima, > > Your submission was received and will not be posted, fore > it argues *against* the Covenant. > > Albert Verbrugh > Co-Moderator > soc.religion.bahai > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nima Hazini" > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 11:30 PM > Subject: Re: The Bab and Baha'u'llah > > > Yes, but, the fact remains that the Bab in fact did designate Mirza Yahya > Subh-e Azal as his vicar and *legitimate* successor, i.e. wasi. And this is > the central insoluble, enigmatic issue of the Babi/Baha'i religion(s). The > document of the Bab's Will & Testament (vasiyat naameh) is very explicit in > lauding Mirza Yahya Nuri in the highest, elevated terms when appointing him > to his post. Whatever one thinks of Subh-e Azal's later schizophrenic > leadership style, the people around him, his ordering of the assassination > of Dayyan, and his general botch up job of maintaining a consistent and > unified Babi movement by alienating many of the prominent Babis, etc, the > fact remains that he was the Bab's wali. The Baha'i claim that the Bab was > merely attempting to deflect premature attention from Baha'u'llah, while an > interesting theory, simply does not hold much historical water in the face > of Baha'u'llah's claim in the Tablet of the Two Rivers (Lawh-e Shattiyeh) of > the 1850s where he quite specifically denies having any claim, station, > mission, etc, and where he explicitly upholds the legitimacy of Azal's > vicegerency. Perhaps Baha'u'llah was simply practicing a central creed of > the Bayani faith, i.e.taqiyyah/dissimulation. Who knows?! But the issues in > question are not as simple as the simplisticisms of "official" Baha'i > histories and positions. > While in Baha'i literature Azal has gone down as the arch-covenant > breaker of Baha'u'llah's revelation, it stands to reason that Azal never > broke any covenant. He maintained his legitimate right to the leadership of > the Babi/Bayani community throughout his life; a position bestowed upon him > by none other than the Point of Bayan, i.e. Hazrate Nuqta-ye Ula Siyyid `Ali > Muhammad Shirazi, the Bab. Perhaps the truth lies in what Rumi says in his > Masnavi, > > When colourlessness became the captive of colour, > A Moses went to war with Moses! > > chon bi-rangi asir-e rang shod > musa ba musa andar jang shod! > > cheers, > Nima > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 8:33 AM Subject: [bahai] lying by uhj to UNITED NATIONS & US GOVERNMENT, et al. The uhj in "The Turning Point for All Nations," a 1997 policy piece aimed at the United Nations, presented to many prominent people in several different governments, hypocritically writes, "The minimum standards for conduct by a government towards its people have been well established in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and subsequent international covenants, collectively referred to as the International Bill of Human Rights." "Without an unshakable commitment to regular and periodic elections with universal participation by secret ballot, to ***freedom of expression*** and to other such ***human rights***, a member state stands in the way of the active and intelligent participation of the vast majority of its population in the affairs of its own communities." "We propose that there should be ***consequences*** for member states that violate these standards. Similarly, nations seeking recognition should be denied membership until they openly espouse these standards or make recognizable efforts to move in that direction." Yet the truth is that uhj has hypocritically violated the human rights of many, many Bahais, often intellectuals who have candidly expressed their views, often in the context of their studies and research, driving them out of the Bahai faith or ostracizing them, including academics in major American universities. It has done so without any ***consequences*** whatsoever, with impunity. The UN and other official government bodies should at least hold it accountable, instead of always being deceived by Bahai public relations people every time there is a crisis in Iran. The uhj continues its hypocrisy by saying "Far from encouraging the punitive spirit that has often masqueraded under its name in past ages, justice is the practical expression of awareness that, in the achievement of human progress, the interests of the individual and those of society are inextricably linked. To the extent that justice becomes a guiding concern of human interaction, a ***consultative climate*** is encouraged that permits options to be examined dispassionately and appropriate courses of action selected. In such a climate the perennial tendencies toward manipulation and partisanship are far less likely to deflect the decision-making process." It is the uhj itself that has poisoned the climate of the Bahai faith through suppression and tyranny and a pervasive ***punitive spirit*** that canonly tolerate its own fundamentalist voice. Many such passages of hypocrisy exist in the documents the uhj generates for release to the UN and various governments and public officials. Full text of "The Turning Point for All Nations" may be found at https://home.vicnet.net.au/~bahai/turning.html Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses other related human rights issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 8:35 AM Subject: [bahai] United Nations Millennium Summit - Sept 6-8, 2000 As an accredited participant, I attended the United Nations Millennium Forum of civil society organizations from May 22-26, 2000. Some may be interested in knowing that bahais were central to the event which produced a report to advise heads of state to the Millennium Summit this September at the United Nations - the first such gathering of so many national heads since WW II. "The final edited version of the "We the Peoples Millennium Forum Declaration and Agenda for Action" has now been posted to the Forum's Website. This version includes ... several final additions that were adopted by the Forum on Friday, 26 May 2000 during its final session." It can be found through links at: https://www.millenniumforum.org as well as directly at: https://www.millenniumforum.org/html/papers/mfd26May.htm RealPlayer video of several Millennium Forum sessions, including Techeste Ahderom, co-chair of the forum and principal representative to the United Nations, bahai international community: https://www.un.org/millennium/summit1.htm Also some might find Kofi Annan's "We the Peoples," his official recommendations that will serve as the basis for this September's Millennium Summit, interesting: https://www.un.org/millennium/sg/report/ The uhj, in it's ridvan [April] 2000 message, jubilantly celebrated their increase of power, control, and influence at the United Nations: "It must be a source of great satisfaction to Baha'is everywhere that the Baha'i International Community as an NGO representing a cross-section of humankind has won such trust as a unifying agent in major discussions shaping the future of humankind. Our principal representative at the United Nations was appointed to co-chair the Committee on Non-Governmental Organizations, which was established by the Economic and Social Council--a position that is giving the Baha'i International Community a leading role in the organization of the Millennium Forum. This gathering, called by UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan and scheduled to be held in May, will give organizations of civil society an opportunity to formulate views and recommendations on global issues which will be taken up at the subsequent Millennium Summit in September of this year to be attended by heads of state and government." https://www.bahai-library.org/published.uhj/ridvan/index.html It was quite an experience hearing Techeste Ahderom, the bahai representative and Forum co-chair, in the UN General Assembly Hall, urging hypocritically the importance of strengthening human rights throughout the world.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 6:46 AM Subject: Re: April 3 letter Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://209.185.176.10/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000824001150.02946.00002399@ng-fi1.aol.com... > > I posted > >your private message to me, so don't try to talk your way out of this one, > >Susan. > > Yes, I noted that. And this of course, is not the first time. Despite Juan's > whining about the ethics of posting private messages, he has allowed you to > post my private messages to you on his Talisman list, notwithstanding that the > threatened to kick off anyone who posted something I gave them permission to > post! > > > I'm waiting, Susan, post this letter or I will; or, where you bluffing, > >as usual. > > Don't worry, Nima, its coming. But it is a bit too late tonight. I spent a long > time chasing down a phantom text Juan cited in his message. Could'nt be found > in either the list of AHA publications nor in the Library of Congress listings. > Perhaps what he had in mind was this document: *Statement on Standards of > Professional Conduct.* Thing is it doesn't say anything resembling what Juan > said. Closest thing to it is a section on oral history. I don't do oral > history. People might want to take a look at it. It can be found here: > https://www.theaha.org/pubs/standard.htm > Pay special attention to the section under scholarship. I will spend sometime > discussing the implications of this document tomorrow, before I post the Aug. 3 > letter. > > warmest, Susan > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 6:53 AM Subject: Re: April 3 letter and Maneck's Lack of Ethics Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that further reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://209.185.176.10/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Juan Cole" wrote in message news:8nvpl4$hdi$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Susan Maneck has consistently behaved in an unethical manner for a > historian, because she simply does not understand the duties of an > academic to others. The Standards and Practices Guide of the American > Historical Association forbids a historian from publishing private > information from correspondents, given in confidence, without their > permission. Historians are to respect the desire for confidentiality > and to publish only those documents that the donor designates for > public consumption. This is an iron-bound contract between a historian > and the people he or she studies, and it over-rides our ever-present > concern for the integrity of the historical record. > > I published Birkland's letter to a prominent Baha'i academic (who did > not wish to be identified) with deletions because the source of the > document to me asked for confidentiality. The deletions were designed > to protect the recipient's identity. I was bound by those conditions > according to the Standards and Practices Guide, since although the > document had a public character I received it in confidence. I > regretted the conditions, since I wanted to publish the entire > document. When Maneck accused me of dishonesty (she should talk), I > asked the recipient for permission to put up some of the deleted > portion, and received it. Had I been refused, I would have declined to > change the posting, since my primary responsibility has to be to the > person who supplies me with a confidential text. > > Maneck, of course, was involved in actively spying on the H-Bahai > editorial board--she sent "reports" on its consultations to "counselor" > A. M. Ghadirian, supposedly a professor of psychiatry at McGill > University. Maneck was a member of the moderating team and bound by > canons of confidentiality. When her spying became known to the > Editorial Board, she resigned in disgrace. She later accused me of > forcing her out, even though I have archived a contemporary message > from that time wherein she makes it clear that she freely resigned. > > She has also published on the Internet private correspondence between > us, written by me at a time when I was full of hurt and she represented > herself as my friend. > > Maneck, in short, has no integrity whatsoever. She is the Linda Tripp > of the Baha'i Faith, with the exception that she has betrayed only the > innocent. She is an admitted spy, and she has violated the confidences > of numerous correspondents. She is now doing so again, by publishing > the Aug. 3 letter, which was sent to her by its recipient in confidence. > > What I put up on my Web site was a slightly different document from a > different source. In April, 2000, I was contacted by an Iranian- > American Baha'i with the information that the BWC Secretariat was > circulating two letters about me behind my back to Baha'is who inquired > from them about me. He faxed me the two letters as received from the > BWC Secretariat. I scanned the faxed letter and put it up on the Web. > I did not indicate ellipses because this FAX did not have any and I did > not leave any of the faxed letter out. > > Maneck claims she was told by a member of the Universal House of > Justice that it is not circulating such a letter. That member, > clearly, simply was not informed of the Secretariat's actions. It is > also possible that the member is lying. There is now a well-documented > pattern of lying on the part of some members of the Universal House of > Justice, as when they said that Alison Marshall was > repeatedly "counselled" before being expelled (she never once was). > > > I am sad for the recipient of the letter that it is being made public, > in case it should harm him in any way. However, I am personally > delighted to have it out in the open, since now it can be cited and > discussed in the book I am writing about cult-like behavior in the > Baha'i leadership. It is a very ugly letter, full of implied threats > and ignorant anti-intellectualism, which besmirches the name of the > tolerant and loving Cause of Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha that we > love. To what a low estate has the Baha'i Faith fallen, when the > friends cannot even order the first academic book about the early > history of the Cause published at an academic press from the Baha'i > Publishing Trusts! Is this sort of censorship and know-nothingism > really what `Abdu'l-Baha promised us about the future of the Faith? > > Maneck has once again violated the norms of academic scholarship with > this betrayal of confidence. Astonishingly, she attempts to represent > herself as some sort of savior of the truth. What she cannot face, > what she can never acknowledge, is that the basic acts of dishonesty > that have besmirched the name of our beloved Baha'i Faith in the past > five years have emanated from Douglas Martin and his soulmates. And > she herself is so lost in cultdom that she freely lies, as she did > about H-Bahai. > > > This is my last statement on the matter. The real tragedy is that I > have spent hours of my life talking to Maneck that I will never be able > to get back. > > Sincerely > > > Juan R. I. Cole > Professor of History > University of Michigan > > > -- > Juan Cole, https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm > Buy *Modernity & Millennium: Genesis of Baha'i* > https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0231110812/qid=933798168/sr=1-1/0 > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 9:18 AM Subject: Re: April 3 letter and Maneck's Lack of Ethics Alas, it is a farce.... Well said.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:8o3584$eqo$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Greetings, Susan. > Do you not understand the image this presents? Can you imagine > the satires that could be written? The Royal Canadian Air Farce > would love to have material like this. Saying it's a religion does > not excuse this kind of behaviour. I am overwhelmed, simply amazed > that you don't seem to get it. This reminds me of that famous trial > where the prosecutor asked, "Why did you kill him?" and was answered, > "Because he was Baha'i." "No more questions." And totally unaware of > the Western mindset some were assuming the murderer would get off, > when, of course, he'd confessed to murder and was so found guilty. > So, Alison Marshall expresses opinions varying from the > Party Line being imposed, contrary to Baha'i principle, as the > sending out of high officials to speak to individuals "having > problems" keeping opinions contrary to the Party Line to themselves > had not been very successful, re-education classes are conducted in > her community stating the Party Line, it is noted that she was > present at these re-education classes and fails still to accept the > Party Line, so she is considered to have been booted out after being > advised. > I gotta go, but maybe later I'll try some satire worthy of this. > You know, if I had stepped fresh off a space ship I'd still be > scratching my head about this and assuming our ATD (Automatic > Translating Device) was malfunctioning. But I've been here for > years, think I know the lingo, and oooh, you just don't seem to > understand what's coming across in your description of Baha'i > official activity. > To Humanity, > Michael > > Smaneck (smaneck@aol.com) writes: > > This simply represents a diffenence in perception. Inasmuch as the > > Institutions had had very poor results in sending Counselors around to > > talk to individuals having problems, they instead attempted to take a > > much softer approach in Alison's case. Rather than single her out, > > Counselors and Board Members held deepening classes in Alison's > > community specifically aimed at these issues with Alison in > > attendence. But it was obvious these were having no effect. > > > Susan Maneck > > History Dept. > > Stetson University > > > > > > > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 5:00 PM Subject: Re: Nostalgic Moscow Act One Scene Two Bravo, Michael. I hope there's more to follow.... A pleasure to find something worth reading on trb.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:8o3ihb$4r3$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > "Svyetlana, you'll never guess what I heard." > "You pay too much attention to rumours." > "No, Svyetlana. I heard this with my own ears through the wall from > the appartment next door." > "I can believe it. These old Soviet walls are so very thin you can hear > everything the neighbours do." > "Yes, Svyetlana, you are such an outspoken dissident. You are one of > the editors of that Horoshii Soviet Magazine, along with that notorious > Professor Kolyev." > "He may be misunderstood." > "I'll show you how misunderstood he is. He was at a little party at > another professor's place. He and some others in the living room there > didn't lower their voices, indeed, they spoke plainly, unaware that I, a > decent Soviet citizen, was overhearing them. Listen to this: "Look, idiot, > toss away that idea of stirring things up with petitions, etc. We've already > got a great winning strategy with these classes at the Cafe Talisman. Prof. > Ivanov's doing great with his translations. You, study your Old Slavonic > verbs. This struggle to demonstrate Lenin was not a totalitarian despot > won't be won in a day; you'll be needed in the future, only keep quiet > for now." > "O my ears, my ears, could it be true." > "It's true. You see, I had a number of good Soviets over at my place > following that session at the Talisman Cafe. We all heard it. See, and you > thought those classes were a dispassionate examination of Lenin's thought. > Really, as we heard from those guys in that living room, Prof. Kolyev > included, had a grand conspiracy in mind." > "Shocking!" > "I'll say, and this has reached the stratosphere. The Central > Committee is very concerned, as you can imagine. A grand conspiracy in > a living room in Moscow planning an agenda to demonstrate Lenin was not > a newspeak speaking totalitarian despot." > "If only they'd been doing something minor like having group sex, > but, a grand conspiracy to elevate understanding of Lenin. Absolutely > shocking. I don't know what to do." > "Ah, Svyetlana, we'd thought you'd never ask. Just make a note of > everything you hear from Prof. Kolyev etc. and send a copy to us at the > KGB." > "Thanks for everything." > "Don't mention it, Svyetlana. > End of Scene Two > > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 5:16 PM Subject: Re: April 3 letter and Maneck's Lack of Ethics Impartial observers of this thread should carefully weigh Juan Cole's statement here with a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her complete lack of scholarly principle: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other opinions as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other opinions as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm Includes a large number of her messages: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt While it is not a pretty picture that Professor Cole paints of her and the bahai uhj's involvement in coercion and suppression, alas, I know, from over four years of experiencing such things, it is an accurate one.... And to think that this is the "institution" that now exerts so much influence at the United Nations.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Juan Cole" wrote in message news:8o3mio$2n6$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Maneck now wishes to get off the hook of her ethical responsibilities > by alleging that she is "not engaged in oral history." But of course > she is. She is an academic specializing in Baha'i Studies. She runs a > Baha'i Studies list, where her comments as an expert are frequently > posted. Much of her information comes from oral sources. > > She went to a Baha'i who had received a personal letter. She asked him > for a copy. He gave her one in confidence. Why did she ask for it? > Because she studies the movement and wanted that information. Now she > intends to betray his trust, cause him harm (as she has admitted), and > post this private correspondence to the World Wide Web. Her behavior > is first of all simply rude and inhumane. But beyond that it is a > betrayal of her academic ethics. When she solicits such private > information from a person and uses it in her academic Baha'i studies > she is involved with a *human* subject, for dealing with which there > are AHA and Federal guidelines. She is not exempted from those > guidelines or from her ethical responsibilities under any circumstances. > > I received the correspondence about me being circulated at Douglas > Martin's orders from the BWC twice. The first time was by email, from > the BCCA and from a third party. The second time was in the form of > the two faxed sheets, sent to me by yet another person, about 8 months > later. I did not publish the emailed form as long as it was private. > But when I got the faxes, I felt relieved of any responsibility for the > material that was being made public, and I published that material on > the Web. In the case of the BCCA message I went back in my archives > and pulled out the original email, deleting the name of the > correspondent. This is because the fax and the original email were > identical with the exception of the cover letter from the BCCA. The > second one was too full of personal details about the recipient to be > treated that way, and I simply fed the fax into my scanner. I only > published material that was in the faxes, with the exception of a short > passage that seemed to me a crucial part of the original letter, and > which had nothing to do with the recipient. In the case of the longer > letter, I felt I had a responsibility to its recipient not to allow > details that might harm his reputation to appear, and so only put up > the fax. I do write Baha'i oral history, and I am bound by the AHA and > Federal guidelines. > > In publishing the excerpted letters being circulated by the BWC I did > nothing wrong at all, and it is astonishing that it is being alleged > that I did. In fact, I am the *victim* of a vicious and libellous > whisper campaign orchestrated by Douglas Martin from Haifa. Once I > received the faxes, I chose to make that campaign public, valuing the > truth over any damage that might result to my reputation among > conservative Baha'is. What I did was honorable. > > Maneck does not believe I was faxed the exerpts. She may believe as > she pleases. She has demonstrated herself to be an unethical person > many times over. She has admitted to publishing private correspondence > sent to her in confidence, to spying on her colleagues in breach of > academic confidentiality, and to profound betrayals of the trust of her > old friends. She has lied about the H-Bahai affair, in which she was > culpable. She is a latter-day Torquemada, an inquisitioner, and if she > could put those she sees as heretics on the rack, she would. I owe her > nothing, not explanation, not proof, not a reply. I am a respected > historian at a major university and nobody in my field believes that I > am anything but scrupulous about textual sources, a reputation I have > gained by dint of substantial historical research and publishing over > two decades (Three monographs at respected university presses, two > edited volumes, and large numbers of articles in refereed journals; and > I am myself editor of a major Cambridge University Press journal). I > stand on that reputation when I say I received the faxes. And, I give > my word on the life of my son, Arman, and on the Most Holy Book itself, > that those excerpted letters are being circulated by the BWC behind the > scenes and that they were faxed to me. > > Now, for some reason she doesn't want those texts up on my Web page. > And in order to force me to take them down, she threatened to harm a > friend of mine. But to take them down under such circumstances would > be to yield to blackmail and would in consequence be unethical. I > cannot act in such a way. She will have to do as she pleases. > > And, no doubt there will be a wisdom in it if she does post the entire > letter. One of the difficulties in proving to the Baha'is themselves > and to the outside world that there are cult-like elements in Baha'i > governance is that those elements tend to cover their tracks. They > prefer oral conversations to written documents. It is virtually > impossible to prove what was said in a conversation. Only occasionally > is someone in the administration so unwise as to commit a cult-like > communication, full of intimidation and bullying, to writing. And even > then they depend on the individual recipient being so afraid for his or > her reputation in the community that it won't be revealed. So, if this > letter, which drips of Scientology-like coercion and menace, is > published on the Web, it may well be the smoking gun needed to make > clear to everyone that there are glaze-eyed cultists in high Baha'i > office, who are ruining lives. If that smoking gun is provided by a > low-level cultist for her own warped reasons, the irony will be all the > more striking. > > Sincerely > > Juan R. I. Cole > Professor > History > University of Michigan > > > In article <20000824015025.06874.00002936@ng-cg1.aol.com>, > smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > Cole posted this rather odd message: > > > > "Maneck is already in violation of a number of these provisions and > is open to > > ethics charges before the AHA should her interviewee choose to make > them; these > > will become known to her Department, of course." > > > > Gee, don't you think they would have to established I conducted an > interview > > first? This stuff all deals with oral history, not something I do > much of. > > > >> Forum: talk.religion.bahai > >> Thread: Ethics (was Re: April 3 letter ...) > >> Message 25 of 36 > > > Subject: Re: Ethics (was Re: April 3 letter ...) > Date: 08/23/2000 > Author: Juan Cole > > << previous in thread · next in thread >> > > > > Schaut, that great master of the Internet, is unable to find a simple > document. This is what the Statement on Scholarship of the American > Historical Association says: > > "Certain kinds of research and conditions attached to employment or to > use of records impose obligations to maintain confidentiality, and oral > historians often must make promises to interviewees as conditions for > interviews. Scholars should honor any pledges made." > > It can be found at: > > https://www.theaha.org/pubs/standard.htm#Scholarship > > > Additionally, in the statement on interviewing, the AHA instructs: > > "1. Interviews should be recorded on tape but only after the person to > be interviewed has been informed of the mutual rights and > responsibilities involved in oral history, such as editing, > confidentiality, disposition, and dissemination of all forms of the > record. Interviewers should obtain legal releases and document any > agreements with interviewees." > > "4. The interviewer should guard against possible social injury to or > exploitation of interviewees and should conduct interviews with respect > for human dignity." > > See: > > https://www.theaha.org/pubs/standard.htm#Statement%20on%20Interviewing > > Maneck is already in violation of a number of these provisions and is > open to ethics charges before the AHA should her interviewee choose to > make them; these will become known to her Department, of course. She > has blatantly disregarded possible social injury to her interviewee, > whom she approached and asked for a confidential document. She has > attempted to exploit that person as a way of blackmailing me about what > is on my personal Web page (!). She has shown blatant disregard for > the human dignity of her source. > > So, no, Mr. Schaut, I am not making up these Standards. And I would be > glad to see a neutral third party decide if they have been violated. > > Finally, I confess that when I first began doing interviewing and using > email correspondence for research, I was unaware of the standards for > Oral History and came to know about them only through my colleagues > here. Since that time I have scrupulously adhered to them. Ignorance > is an excuse under the law. But now, what is Maneck's excuse? > > Sincerely > > Juan R. I. Cole > Professor > Department of History > > > > -- > Juan Cole, https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai.htm > Buy *Modernity & Millennium: Genesis of Baha'i* > https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0231110812/qid=933798168/sr=1-1/0 > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 5:29 PM Subject: [ bahai ] A Very Serious Suggestion (Re: April 3 Letter - Where?) Yes, I garbled it. So, that letter.... Well it's hard to keep up with every reprehensible deed the uhj lowers itself to.... Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that nothing new here has really happened to justify the ferocity. Seriously consider WHY Maneck and other fundamentalists are causing all this strife over a piece of OLD news.... During the last four years, I've seen them do this type of thing on a number of occasions. I suggest there is something else going on. It has the look of a diversionary tactic to my mind. And they create a huge flood of messages which accomplishes two things: 1. It renders more difficult for non-bahai observers to find the messages on trb and arb they don't want them to read. 2. It flushes out many servers around the world that are only set up to hold about a week's worth of postings. Why would they do this now? The only explanation I can think of is because of the Millennium Summit Sept. 5-8 and all of their intrigues at the United Nations to present themselves as the future for humankind, God forbid.... Also, it falls perfectly into The Bahai Technique: A lot of people lose their patience with the fanatics and strike back allowing non-bahai observers to think it's just religious bickering, as usual, which serves the fundamentalists' designs, concealing the endemic tyranny that now holds sway over the lives of rank and file bahais. Think about it. I'd appreciate hearing from others if you have any thoughts about it. Consider too how concerted a number of literalists have suddenly shown up spouting off with their predictable accusations and excuses. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 5:48 PM Subject: [ bahai ] UN MILLENNIUM SUMMIT Session To Be Landmark Event MILLENNIUM SUMMIT: Session To Be Landmark Event, Official Says https://www.unfoundation.org/unwire/unwire.cfm#1 Next month's UN Millennium Summit will be a landmark forum that will allow more informal and open discussions among political leaders and will help chart a blueprint for the UN's role in the new century, UN Deputy Secretary-General Louise Frechette told a New York press conference yesterday. The summit is to be the largest-ever gathering of heads of state with 150 leaders attending, Frechette said. The summit will run 6 - 8 September, and for the first time will include four roundtable discussions in addition to plenary meetings. Billed as "a working summit" by UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, Frechette emphasized that the event will meet "realistic but ambitious" goals on major world problems (UN Newservice, 24 Aug). Some of the most pressing issues to be discussed are alleviating poverty, strengthening UN peacekeeping operations, protecting the environment and reversing the spread of HIV/AIDS (UN Department of Public Information release, 24 Aug). "None of these problems can be solved by a very large wand in the year 2000 on the 6th of September, but it does make a difference if leaders from all countries get together and say these are our priorities, and we are determined to do whatever is necessary to reach these goals." Frechette said it is "easy to be cynical about these meetings" but said many similar events have produced real results by raising political will and focusing political energy on global issues. Frechette said the number of bilateral meetings among world leaders is expected to meet or exceed 703, the number of such meetings held during the 50th anniversary celebration of the UN in 1995. During or preceding the summit, Frechette announced meetings would include: A forum on girl's education sponsored by UNICEF; A UNESCO meeting on the dialogue among civilizations; The annual conference of nongovernmental organizations; A meeting organized by the Interparliamentary Union for presiding officers of national parliaments; and A meeting of the world's spiritual and religious leaders (UN Newservice, 24 Aug). ``````````````````````````````````````` [ANY GUESSES AS TO WHO WILL BE THERE, FROM A PARTICULAR ORGANIZATION, SPOUTING OFF ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS, WHILE CRUSHING THEM AMONGST THEIR OWN MEMBERS?] Frechette said the Security Council is also expected to hold a special conference during the summit to discuss peace and security, especially in Africa. She also added that at the formal conclusion of the Millennium Summit, there is likely be a declaration (UN release, 24 Aug). To read more of Frechette's comments on the Millennium Summit, click here. To read more about a UN advertising campaign alerting New York to the summit, click here. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 10:54 AM Subject: Re: Maneck and her dirty tactics!! "Review" is censorship, clear and simple. The claim someday it will be abolished is meaningless these 80+ years now.... There's nothing in Baha'u'llah's or Abdu'l-Baha's Writings to justify it, and I highly doubt Shoghi Effendi ever intended it to last this long. Much of the fundamentalist antics one sees on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, and elsewhere is merely the attempt to carry on the same system of "review" in other forums. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000827031940.22621.00000577@ng-md1.aol.com... > >Let me see if I've gotten it right: Are you telling me that > >authors have to submit their book for "official review" in Bahai Faith ? > > Dear Cyrus, > > If it deals with the Baha'i Faith, yes. This was something 'Abdu'l-Baha > established. Shoghi Effendi stated that review was to be temporary and would > eventually be abolished. > > warmest, Susan ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 10:54 AM Subject: Re: Maneck and her dirty tactics!! "Review" is censorship, clear and simple. The claim someday it will be abolished is meaningless these 80+ years now.... There's nothing in Baha'u'llah's or Abdu'l-Baha's Writings to justify it, and I highly doubt Shoghi Effendi ever intended it to last this long. Much of the fundamentalist antics one sees on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, and elsewhere is merely the attempt to carry on the same system of "review" in other forums. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000827033346.22621.00000579@ng-md1.aol.com... > >That's the problem that Juan faced when his book was "reviewed" by his > >"peers" > > Juan never submitted his book for review. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 10:55 AM Subject: Re: Maneck and her dirty tactics!! "Review" is censorship, clear and simple. The claim someday it will be abolished is meaningless these 80+ years now.... There's nothing in Baha'u'llah's or Abdu'l-Baha's Writings to justify it, and I highly doubt Shoghi Effendi ever intended it to last this long. Much of the fundamentalist antics one sees on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, and elsewhere is merely the attempt to carry on the same system of "review" in other forums. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000827033220.22621.00000578@ng-md1.aol.com... > >I am just curious ..do authors in _all_ fields of study must > >submit their work for "review" > > Dear Cyrus, > > Only if it talks about the Baha'i Faith. > > >.so, can > >someone write a book on "cloning" from genetic's point of view ? > >How about abortions ? How about unforseen technologies and science's > >that BF might oppose ? > > Yes, since those books would presumably not mention the Faith. According to > Shoghi Effendi this is intended to be a temporary messure to insure accuracy of > presentation while the Baha'i Faith is still in its infancy. > > warmest, Susan > > warmest, Susan > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 10:08 AM Subject: uhj's Backbiting Letter - 3 August 1999 A copy and paste job from Juan Cole's site. I'm guessing at the paragraph breaks. For his comments and response, see https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---- 3 August 1999 From: Department of the Secretariat Baha'i World Center Dear Baha'i Friend, Clearly, no one would dispute the right of Dr. Cole to write and publish whatever work a publisher is prepared to handle. Nor has anyone questioned the right of a Baha'i who is interested in such a book to purchase it. To suggest that the House of Justice is saying otherwise would be to seriously misconstrue the nature of its concern . . . As a participant in various Internet discussion groups over the past five years, and particularly in the last year or two, you cannot but be aware from these exchanges that Dr. Cole has embarked on a deliberate assault against the Baha'i Cause, in which he has not hesitated to attack its institutions, to misrepresent its fundamental teachings, and to abuse the trust of Baha'is who had been led to believe that they were engaged with him in a detached and scholarly search for the truth. These same Internet exchanges exposed you, like other participants, to a flood of calumny and invective against a great many of your fellow believers, on the part of Dr. Cole, that is scarcely credible in rational discourse. Had such a book as Modernity and the Millennium been written by a disinterested non-Baha'i scholar, its misconception of the nature of Baha'u'llah's Mission and its other shortcomings would have represented no more than understandable weaknesses of an honest attempt to explore a religious phenomenon as yet little understood in the West. Indeed, in this context, such an attempt to make the Baha'i Faith comprehensible to the Western academic mind, however inadequate it might appear to knowledgeable Baha'i scholars, would surely have earned its author a measure of genuine Baha'i appreciation for the writing and research skills deployed in devising it. As you -- like other participants in certain Internet discussion groups -- are well aware, however, the book's author is not a disinterested scholar. Rather, he is a deeply embittered individual who, as his book was in preparation, had just denounced in the most intemperate language an apparent twenty-year allegiance to Baha'u'llah, in the wake of a failed attempt on his part to impose his private ideological agenda on the Baha'i community's study of Baha'u'llah's Message. Modernity and the Millennium represents an effort to provide the current stage of this long-running scheme with the underpinnings of scholarly rationalization. What is this rationalization? Although distorted by its evasion of Baha'i Texts that contradict its main assertions, and blurred by reliance on speculations peculiar to its author's purpose, the thesis appears to run somewhat as follows: Baha'u'llah's work and Writings represent essentially one of several efforts by Middle East thinkers to work out a "response" to the challenges posed by European modernity in the form of rationalism, revolution, nationalism, economic upheaval, feminism and other contemporary developments. Although Oriental in origin, this particular "response", in contrast to various others, was unusually "progressive", "liberal", "idealistic", even "radical". Because it "grew up" in a congenial modernist era, its Author was able gradually to adjust and revise the ideas with which He had been "grappling", through benefiting (in a manner generally insinuated rather than explicitly stated) from successive interactions with other thinkers and movements. By 1862, apparently in order to deal with the problem of religious exclusivity in the Muslim world, and in response to some form of "private mystical experience", He "decided to make a prophetic claim of his own" . . . The Covenant, the distinguishing feature of Baha'u'llah's Revelation, has been made the central target of this effort (a maneuver that Dr. Cole's book is at particular pains to shore up). Although forced to acknowledge the appointments of `Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian as Interpreters of Baha'u'llah's Message, every effort has been made to call such authoritative interpretation into question wherever it presents a problem for the notions being promoted. Similarly, although ostensibly acknowledging that the Universal House of Justice is Head of the Baha'i Faith today, this opposition has tried by every means possible to undermine the broad authority conferred in Baha'u'llah's own words and emphasized in the Master's Will and Testament. (In Dr. Cole's book, this agenda makes its appearance in the conclusion: namely, that the Faith founded by Baha'u'llah has failed in its mission because, like "the Khomeinist state in Iran", it has been somehow captured by "fundamentalists", by which term Dr. Cole has repeatedly characterized the members of the Universal House of Justice.) . . . With loving Baha'i greetings, Department of the Secretariat ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 2:52 PM Subject: Re: Juan's Comment Noted Michael, I couldn't agree more with you! I recall being struck by Cole's observation in this regard whenever I first read it as well. It does seem to be perceptive of a very serious change in thinking among the power elites in the bahai faith. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:8oe47e$40c$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Greetings. > The following comment in Juan's response to this letter by Doug > Martin is of such significance that I post it separately: > > I was watching > >as "covenant-breaking" was being redefined from an attempt at schism to > >simply expressing liberal Baha'i views and critiques of the status quo > >on the internet! It was being misused as a tool to establish > >fundamentalism as the unchallengeable Baha'i dogma. > This calls for a lengthier comment than I can now make. > For now, the point is now drawn to your attention as one I see that > is highly significant. If a measure and concept initially intended to > resist sectarianism becomes applied to the natural variety of human > opinions, then it is being applied to achieve purposes exactly contrary > to its original intent. > M. > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 5:34 PM Subject: Re: uhj's Backbiting Letter - 3 August 1999 Well then, why don't you or someone else post them here for us? -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000828170640.02669.00000215@ng-fi1.aol.com... > >3 August 1999 > > > >From: Department of the Secretariat > >Baha'i World Center > > > >Dear Baha'i Friend, > > > >Clearly, no one would dispute the right of Dr. Cole to write and publish > >whatever work a publisher is prepared to handle. > > I should point out that there are about four paragraphs which proceed the one > which Cole has placed first in this letter. > > Susan Maneck > History Department > Stetson University ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 6:45 AM Subject: Re: Juan's Comment Noted Shall I post the letter, > warts and all, and let the world decide for themselves??? Let me suggest once more, it's the only way to deal with this crowd.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 10:27 AM Subject: Re: Juan's Comment Noted Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > >Doesn't quite jive with your previous denial, now does it!? > > Previous denial of what? > > warmest, Susan > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 6:42 AM Subject: Re: uhj's Backbiting Letter - 3 August 1999 Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000829221144.24624.00000173@ng-ch1.aol.com... > >this is a > >forum which ought to be dedicated to Baha'u'llah, and not to character > >assassination. By anyone. > > Dear Robert, > > I think you are forgetting that this forum was not establish to serve > Baha'u'llah. Fred pushed for its establishment in order to have a forum in > which he could freely bash the Baha'i Administration. > > warmest, Susan ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 6:47 AM Subject: ~ bahai ~ NEWCOMERS -- START HERE If newcomers to talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai desire not to be deceived by bahai fundamentalists, it will require more than a passing glance at a few messages. I suggest you begin with the links below which provide a historical survey of the last several years of bahai censorship and then visit further my and Professor Cole's websites. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Bahai Technique ---- Essential Reading https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations Documenting Censorship https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb-bq.htm alt.religion.bahai & talk.religion.bahai FAQ https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/FAQ.htm Bahai Attacks & Bullying https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/BahaiAttacksonme.htm Bahai Threats of Lawsuits & Censorship on AOL https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/BahaiThreatsLawsuit.htm Discussion Agenda for Talk.Religion.Bahai https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/DiscussionAgendaTrb.htm False Membership Statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/FalseStats.htm Continuing Harassment 1/31/2000 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/CHarassment.htm uhj LIES to United Nations & US Government June 2000 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UN.htm bahais at United Nations Millennium Forum & Summit June 2000 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UN2.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/uhj12-10-99.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJ72498.htm To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, surveys the many incidents of bahai censorship that have taken place during the last few decades in "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 6:48 AM Subject: ~ bahai ~ LIES of uhj to United Nations, et al. The uhj in "The Turning Point for All Nations," a 1997 policy piece aimed at the United Nations, presented to many prominent people in several different governments, hypocritically writes, "The minimum standards for conduct by a government towards its people have been well established in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and subsequent international covenants, collectively referred to as the International Bill of Human Rights." "Without an unshakable commitment to regular and periodic elections with universal participation by secret ballot, to ***freedom of expression*** and to other such ***human rights***, a member state stands in the way of the active and intelligent participation of the vast majority of its population in the affairs of its own communities." "We propose that there should be ***consequences*** for member states that violate these standards. Similarly, nations seeking recognition should be denied membership until they openly espouse these standards or make recognizable efforts to move in that direction." Yet the truth is that uhj has hypocritically violated the human rights of many, many Bahais, often intellectuals who have candidly expressed their views, often in the context of their studies and research, driving them out of the Bahai faith or ostracizing them, including academics in major American universities. It has done so without any ***consequences*** whatsoever, with impunity. The UN and other official government bodies should at least hold it accountable, instead of always being deceived by Bahai public relations people every time there is a crisis in Iran. The uhj continues its hypocrisy by saying "Far from encouraging the punitive spirit that has often masqueraded under its name in past ages, justice is the practical expression of awareness that, in the achievement of human progress, the interests of the individual and those of society are inextricably linked. To the extent that justice becomes a guiding concern of human interaction, a ***consultative climate*** is encouraged that permits options to be examined dispassionately and appropriate courses of action selected. In such a climate the perennial tendencies toward manipulation and partisanship are far less likely to deflect the decision-making process." It is the uhj itself that has poisoned the climate of the Bahai faith through suppression and tyranny and a pervasive ***punitive spirit*** that canonly tolerate its own fundamentalist voice. Many such passages of hypocrisy exist in the documents the uhj generates for release to the UN and various governments and public officials. Full text of "The Turning Point for All Nations" may be found at https://home.vicnet.net.au/~bahai/turning.html Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses other related human rights issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 6:49 AM Subject: ~ bahai ~ MILLENIUM SUMMIT - UN - SEPT 6-8, 2000 As an accredited participant, I attended the United Nations Millennium Forum of civil society organizations from May 22-26, 2000. Some may be interested in knowing that bahais were central to the event which produced a report to advise heads of state to the Millennium Summit this September at the United Nations - the first such gathering of so many national heads since WW II. "The final edited version of the "We the Peoples Millennium Forum Declaration and Agenda for Action" has now been posted to the Forum's Website. This version includes ... several final additions that were adopted by the Forum on Friday, 26 May 2000 during its final session." It can be found through links at: https://www.millenniumforum.org as well as directly at: https://www.millenniumforum.org/html/papers/mfd26May.htm RealPlayer video of several Millennium Forum sessions, including Techeste Ahderom, co-chair of the forum and principal representative to the United Nations, bahai international community: https://www.un.org/millennium/summit1.htm Also some might find Kofi Annan's "We the Peoples," his official recommendations that will serve as the basis for this September's Millennium Summit, interesting: https://www.un.org/millennium/sg/report/ The uhj, in it's ridvan [April] 2000 message, jubilantly celebrated their increase of power, control, and influence at the United Nations: "It must be a source of great satisfaction to Baha'is everywhere that the Baha'i International Community as an NGO representing a cross-section of humankind has won such trust as a unifying agent in major discussions shaping the future of humankind. Our principal representative at the United Nations was appointed to co-chair the Committee on Non-Governmental Organizations, which was established by the Economic and Social Council--a position that is giving the Baha'i International Community a leading role in the organization of the Millennium Forum. This gathering, called by UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan and scheduled to be held in May, will give organizations of civil society an opportunity to formulate views and recommendations on global issues which will be taken up at the subsequent Millennium Summit in September of this year to be attended by heads of state and government." https://www.bahai-library.org/published.uhj/ridvan/index.html It was quite an experience hearing Techeste Ahderom, the bahai representative and Forum co-chair, in the UN General Assembly Hall, urging hypocritically the importance of strengthening human rights throughout the world.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 6:51 AM Subject: ~ bahai ~ Right Wing bahais "....right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute." --Professor Juan Cole Full text at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 6:53 AM Subject: ~ bahai ~ Two Messages to uhj This file contains two messages: "to uhj 12-10-99," "to uhj 7-24-1998": From: Patrick Henry Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights of Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... Including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed would never be violated in their religion. I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; indeed, the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending Baha'u'llah'sTeachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his Revelation. -- Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.) From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message regarding: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Patrick Henry patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor ; bahai-faith @ makelist.com Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM July 24,1998 Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in Iran would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the international community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, always courting the President and other members of the government, has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents as I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many individuals, Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within the Bahai community and administration. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more than a year and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat twice now, along with the collusion of other Bahais, the creation of an unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under Bahai-Discuss Archives. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/BCCAmenu.htm Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA has approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban for more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding talk.religion.bahai. The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," if you will, of Bahai censorship? -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:19 AM Subject: Re: [ bahai ] A Very Serious Suggestion (Re: April 3 Letter - Where?) Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000830235522.05196.00001277@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >Well, Susan is satisfied because she thinks she discredited Juan, but > >she has not. She has asserted a few things, but she has not shown that > >Juan's explanation fails. > > Dear Bruce, > > You just don't get it. > > Juan's explanation was that he inserted material into a fax he received. That > constitutes tampering with a text, by any reasonable definition. > > >As for my curiosity, I have the letter in question in toto. > > Hmmm. I see the letter did get distributed fairly widely, even to non-Baha'is. > > Interesting. > > warmest, Susan > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:19 AM Subject: Re: Juan's Comment Noted Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000831030242.06137.00000416@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >What he posted on his website is a reasonable > >condensation of the original letter containing the core material from > >the faxes. > > Bruce, > > That is not what he presented it as. He presented it as a general letter being > sent out to anyone who inquired about his book. It was not. > > >Your whine seems to be centered around the greeting header > >and the sign-off, that these were not part of faxes. How would you know > > I believe I have stated here several times that I wrote the World Centre and > was told that there was not document sent around in that form. Special > attention was drawn to the misleading nature of the greeting and close. > > >The faxes support the letter and one could easily take it that it is > >the letter that is being condensed, since it that which he received > >first. > > If such a fax exists I don't doubt that it contains excerpts from the letter in > question. Had Cole posted only those excerpts and presented them as such, I > would have no cause for complaint. Instead, he presented the material as a > general letter being sent out, which it was not. > > To my comment: > > > I can say with 100% certainty that what Cole posted on his website > >was not a > >> true facsimile of what the BWC was distributing, which is what Cole > >represented > >> it as. > > Bruce wrote: > > >And how can you say that? > > I can say that on the basis of what I was told by the World Centre and I can > say that on the basis of what Cole himself has said here. > > >And tell us again what is different from what > >Juan posted and what the BWC was distributing. > > That I can't say because I don't have the original fax. All I can say is that > Cole admitted to inserting material not in the fax. It is anyones guess how > much of that he did. > > >"Of what the BWC was distributing." You are, then, admiting that the > >BWC was distributing something, and we can then assume that was at > >least the faxes. > > I am presuming that to be the case solely on the basis of Cole's remarks. I was > not told there was any such fax, only that the World Centre had not distributed > anything in the form Cole had posted on his list, as he had alleged. > > >As so contrary to Schuat, you are trying to discredit Juan, which seems > >to be your only purpose here. > > I am pointing out that he has made serious ethical lapses in his presentation > of material, yes. > > > If Juan is completely correct, then he > >used the faxes to verify the letter, > > Cole said nothing about using the faxes to verify the letter. The authenticity > of the letter was never in question. > > >The officio-crats have obviously fed you > >information concerning this issue, setting you up as the attack- > >Chihuahua. > > Not so. I sought this information from the World Centre after I became outraged > at seeing the Aug. 3 letter being misrepresented in terms of its purpose and > intended audience. > > >Your motivation certainly does not come across as search for > >the truth. > > I would not make such serious accusations unless I had already investigated the > matter pretty thoroughly. > > I'm sorry you cannot see the very serious nature of interpolating a text. But > besides the issues it raises in terms of academic integrity, for Baha'is > letters from the House of Justice have a sacred quality to them and to > interpolate them is a matter of grave spiritual concern as well. > > warmest, Susan ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:19 AM Subject: Re: Juan's Comment Noted Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000831031403.06804.00006201@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >Ah, here we have it. An admission that outside of the headers and sign- > >off, the fax material has been sent around by the Baha'i officio-cracy. > >Juan's paranoia has been well founded, indeed. > > Dear Bruce, > > I have no idea whether such fax materials exist or not. Cole says he received a > copy of one and posted it up, adding material from the Aug. 3 letter. I am > taking his word for it that such a fax might exist because, unlike his earlier > assertion that what he had posted was the fax itself as sent, this explanation > seems plausible. > > >posting the > >letter would add nothing in support of your attack on Juan, > > It would have shown that the letter was not what it had been represented to be. > Nothing more, nothing less. > > Susan Maneck > History Department > Stetson University > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:19 AM Subject: Re: Juan's Comment Noted Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000831001352.05196.00001289@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >What the heck was the point her posting that, what did she really > >expect would happen? > > > > My point was to demonstrate that Cole has been misrepresenting the actions of > the Institutions and that one of the ways he has done this is by tampering with > texts. That remains my contention. > > >I never expected that she would. Hers was a hollow threat. > > It was hardly hollow. If it had been, I would not have informred the World > Centre of my intention beforehand. If Cole had persisted in insisting that this > was an exact replica of a message being sent around by Baha'i World Centre to > anyone who asked about his book, the letter would have definitely gone up. Once > he backed away from that claim, there was no longer any reason to post it. > > Susan Maneck > History Department > Stetson University > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:20 AM Subject: Re: The letter Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000831032032.05196.00001351@ng-cg1.aol.com... > T > Bruce asks: > > >So, what did he add? > > Cole wouldn't tell us that. He simply admitted he inserted stuff into the > original fax. > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:20 AM Subject: Re: The letter Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000831023808.05196.00001325@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >I would like Susan to show us what is not in the original letter. I > >would like her to show us where Juan has distorted the letter. > > Bruce, > > You apparently have not been paying close attention. What Cole originally > asserted was that this document was a general letter being sent around to > people, not the original Aug. 3 letter. Later he admitted he had added some > parts to a fax he had received. > > warmest, Susan ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:20 AM Subject: Re: Modernity and the Millennium Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000831022258.05196.00001322@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >I question any attempt at "locating Baha'u'llah within the > >social/political milieu, historical matrix and cultural ethos of his > >time." > > Dear Robert, > > I don't so much have a problem with that per se. In fact one of my major > complaint against Cole's book is that it places Baha'u'llah in a millieu to > which He didn't belong. Baha'u'llah is presented as borrowing His ideas from a > myriad of Western Enlightenment sources without really adequate proof that He > was in fact familiar with them. Cole seems to think it is sufficient, for > instance, to establish that there might have been represenatives of this or > that ideology as far away as Egypt. > > This insistence on placing Baha'u'llah within the context of Enlightenment > thought, btw, is one of the reasons I think Cole's work so much resembles the > 19th century "Search." Like those earlier works the end product is that > Baha'u'llah appears to be the perfect example of Western liberalism. In this > respect I think Amanat's Resurrection and Renewal represents a much better > work. At least there we have a Bab that looks like a 19th century Persian > rather than a western liberal. In that respect Amanat's work is more up to the > standards of the more recent "Search for the Historical Jesus" which does not > so much come up with a Jesus who looks like us. > > Normally if you are going to establish that a major thinker was influenced by > someone else, the first thing you will do is check out the books in their > library. Which ones have they read? Were comments placed in the margins which > might indicate how significant that work was to them? Yet there is no mention > of any of this in Cole's book. Of course, an even more telling sign would be > Baha'u'llah actually quoting one fo these figures and we are not presented with > evidence of that either. This is not because Baha'u'llah was reticent to quote > either, for classical sources are quoted by Him on a regular basis. A more > plausible case might have been made for such influences on the thought of > 'Abdu'l-Baha, but not Baha'u'llah. > > Earlier I mentioned the similarities between Cole's treatment of Baha'u'llah > and the 19th century treatments of the "historical Jesus." One thing that > should have made a difference is that in the case of Jesus we are lacking in > sources while in the case of Baha'u'llah we are literally drowning in them. It > is surprising therefore, that Cole posits so many so-called influences on so > little evidence. > > Susan Maneck > History Department > Stetson University ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:20 AM Subject: Re: Modernity and the Millennium Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000831015053.05196.00001316@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >> History Department *(visiting professor/adjunct/not tenured) > > Uh, Nima, I'm not an adjunct. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:20 AM Subject: Re: Modernity and the Millennium Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000831023141.05196.00001324@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >I am not saying that people should write apologies but if the method > >requires one to discount the major claim of the Claimant, which then > >forces the explanation of Baha'ullah's Writings as reactions (something that > >is not neutral), then there is only one conclusion: the method > >is flawed. > > Dear Saman, > > The extent to which we as historians must take a figures self-understanding > seriously, is a very real issue. I recall at one point, Cole states in his book > that Baha'u'llah expressed His opinions in the "style" of prophetic revelation, > thus suggesting that this claim simply a matter of style rather than an > integral part of the Message itself. > > Susan Maneck > History Department > Stetson University > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:21 AM Subject: Re: The "L" word (was: Juan's Comment Noted) Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000831004257.05196.00001302@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >My guess is it goes back farther than that, to some falling out the two > >had in pre-arb years and then to the JuneorJuly first postin on the 3 > >Aug letter. > > Dear Pat, > > I was not even aware of the June/July posting. My reaction came purely as a > result of it being brought to my attention by a very sincere person who had > been misled, confused and filled with doubts as a result of the manner in which > this letter had been misrepresented. > > >I think she thought that Juan was lying about certain details and would > >retract. > > He did lie to me initially. He said what he had posted was exactly what the > World Centre had been distributing. That was not true and I doubled-checked it > with Haifa just to make sure. Nor did I think Juan would retract. His statement > that he had inserted materials into the fax he received was a surpise, and it > was solely that revelation that made posting the letter unnecessary. > > >I can also empathize w/ why some Baha'is see that Juan exagerated > >distribution of the letter and find the authorship assertion far > >fetched. > > Pat, you still don't seem to understand the heart of the issue. Whether or not > Cole exaggerated the distribution of some excerpts he had receieved is a side > issue. Whether or not he correctly identified the author is a side issue as > well. The key issue is the fact that he took a text and tampered with it, > whether he took the original Aug. 3 letter and deleted portions ,presenting > that as what the BWC was sending around, or whether he took the fax from > someone and then inserted material into it. > > From the standpoint of professional ethics it is this inserting or deleting > material from a document in this manner which is unconsionable. This is why I > was reluctant to have you mediate any kind of solution. You didn't seem to > understand what the real problem was and instead kept focusing on issues of > authorship and distribution. > > >I'm not saying that Juan lied about its distribution, it is > >quite likely he believes it was in wide distribution, but I know I have > >not seen it through Baha'i channels, as I might if it were in wide > >distribution. Consequently, I see Baha'is making character charges as > >they might if they believe they were lied to, but counter character > >accusations don't help. > > Again, for the record Pat, the extent of distribution of this fax which Cole > supposedly received is not the reason I raised issues regarding his character. > It was the fact that what he posted was not a true representation of the > document in question. > > Susan Maneck > History Department > Stetson University ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:21 AM Subject: Re: spin doctoring uhj's Letter - 3 August 1999 Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000831014913.05196.00001315@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >> That is because you don't understand the issue. There is nothing in > >the fax > >> which is not in the letter. > > > >Having read the letter in toto, that is true. So Juan is not distorting > >the contents of the letter. > > Dear Burl, > > > > He distorted it by saying this was a letter addressed to anyone who inquired > as to his book. That was not true. > > > > > >So who was the fax sent to? > Did Juan get it from the original > >recipient? Did the original recipient send it to someone else who sent > >it to Juan? Were portions of the letter sent to others? > > Cole hasn't told us any of this. He originally claimed it was being distributed > to anyone who asks about his book but presents no evidence to substantiate it. > But as I told Pat, that is not my gripe with him. It is the fact that whatever > he put up, is neither a true represenation of the Aug. 3 letter nor of the fax > he supposedly received. > > >What do you > >really know about the fax? > > Mostly only what Cole has said about it, that he inserted material into that > fax before posting it and then presented that as what the BWC was sending > around. But without the fax, I obviously can't know how misleading those > insertions were. That's why the original fax would tell us more than would the > original Aug. 3 letter. > > But of course, to interpolate even a single line or word into a text is a > serious ethics violation. > > >Do you know for certain that the letter or > >portions of it, or similar statements were not sent by the original > >author/"Dept of the Secretariat" to others to prevent support for > >Juan's book by Baha'i book-mongers. > > I know that nothing was sent out to others in the form in which it was posted > on Cole's website. It is plausible that there were some excerpts from that > letter were sent to someone, however. > > >The letter opens with "Dear Baha'i Friend," and closes with "With > >loving Baha'i Greetings, Department of the Secretriat." That is how it > >was sent to the original recipient. > > But Cole stated that what he was posting was a general letter sent to anyone > who enquired about the book. That was not the nature of the original letter, as > you well know. Excerpts from the World Centre never include those two things. > > >That Juan condensed the letter, > >keeping the greeting and sign-off is not a problem. > > If what he was posting was the original letter, as I had intially presumed it > is a problem for the following reasons: > > 1) Cole would then have misrepresented its intended audience as being aimed at > a general inquiry rather than a specific problem. > > 2) He deleted portions of the letter without any signal that those portions > were taken out. I refer here especially to the first four paragraphs. > > If on the other hand, it is supposed to represent the fax, Cole claims he > received it is still a problem because material was inserted into the text that > was not in the original fax. It is a matter of speculation as to how misleading > those insertions might have been however, because we don't have the original > fax to compare it with. > > But regardless, it is simply unethical to do this. > > >You seem to think > >that Juan is arguing that what he posted has been sent to a number of > >people as Juan posted it > > >Show me where he says that or anything like > >that. > > You asked for it, you got it. This is the message Cole wrote in response to my > complaints before I started this thread: > > " Please tell Ms. Mafiosa that the Doug Martin letter on my Web page was sent > to me in that form by an Iranian Baha'i as a FAX; he received it as a xerox > copy of an enclosure routinely sent out by the UHJ behind the scenes to Baha'is > who inquire about my book from the World Center." > > I'd say that is pretty clear. > > >And you can say for certain that others who might ask about or > >support Juan's book would not get a similar letter? > > Whether they would get a similiar letter is a matter of speculation. The > question here is whether Cole accurately represented who they did send it to > and why. > > >If they would not, > >why then did the original recipient get this nasty work? > > The original recipient of this letter got the message he did because he is seen > as being in cahoots with Cole to promote an agenda which undermines the > Covenant. > > > His quotation of the letter was actually > >quite restrained and does not distort the content > > The deletions or insertions distort the true context. But regardless, one > simply can't do that with a text. Where deletions occur must be adequately > identified while insertions are never permissable. > > Susan Maneck > History Department > Stetson University > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:24 AM Subject: ~ bahai ~ The bahai Technique During the last several years, a number of experienced observers have remarked on the methods many Bahais use to avoid various issues or discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Frederick Glaysher, May 12, 1992: "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [since 1976]. The usual stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the Truth." https://fglaysher.com/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm Ron House, November 14, 1997: "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so much he says something intemperate, then point out how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this technique works, so I've been making a conscious effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. At any other time, they would overlook faults, as Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode they go for the jugular. Very sad." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/House2.htm Fran Baker, May 1998: "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a groupacts this way. Very scary." Professor Juan Cole, June 12, 1998: "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified threats of declaring him or her a CB [Covenant Breaker (heretic)] to silence the individual, and if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the gullibility of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and could never do anything wrong. It is a perfectracket." "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization ostensibly committed to tolerance!" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Cole10.htm Frederick Glaysher, June 1998: "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to talk.religion.bahai." K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in their condemnations of their fellow believers, I would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not character assassination by innuendo, what is?" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson18.htm Gibro28W, October 12, 1998: "In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out as "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs of its members in the first place." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb73.htm Barthaman on September 14, 1998: "Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too. Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)-- after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion? Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on, however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud. Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb66.htm Professor Juan Cole wrote, February 23, 1999: "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon them to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do not fall silent." "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech about the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You will note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long-term heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose with the facts,' and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused of all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been backbitten by them." "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute." "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five years. He can explain it to you." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Cole71.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Johnson21.htm And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb65.htm This document at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:25 AM Subject: ~ bahai ~ Bullying Attacks This file contains two messages: "attacks by Bahais" & "Bahai Bullying": The non-Bahai will note that a year later, now March 2000, my fellow Bahais only continue, with renewed ferocity, their attempts to silence and suppress what they don't want you to know about: Incessant Bahai attacks upon my freedom of speech and liberty, as well as on others, have made it necessary for me to adopt a persona for my own protection and well being. Other measures have been taken. During the late winter and spring of 1999, Bahais twice flooded my hotmail account with up to 1000 messages per day resulting in considerable inconvenience and expenditure of time and effort to block, and ultimately close, the offending accounts; they have, by using numerous Bahai trolls, especially Gyr Falcon, slandered, maligned, and caricatured me in a further effort to discredit me and portray me on talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere as a disturbed and errant individual; through concerted false charges and allegations against me, they have now succeeded in deceiving Hotmail into closing my email account, which I depended on for a considerable part of my income and livelihood. For documentation of many similar incidents of Bahai oppression during the last decade, see The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- BULLYING: I'm alarmed at the Bahai attempts, during May of 1999, at character assassination, ridicule, and generally portraying me and others as disturbed individuals. This tactic has been used for over three years and continues to be used against me and other Bahais and non-Bahais or ex-Bahais on and off talk.religion.bahai. I have never claimed to be perfect. At times I have apologized to Bahais, Muslims, and other non-Bahais when I felt, or was convinced, that I was wrong or had spoken unfairly. I find the constant technique to portray me as a megalomanic or paranoid quite offensive. Similarly, the tactic of accusing me of spam for posting my opinions is calculated to discredit the validity of my and others' concerns regarding censorship in Bahai forums and has also been used on AOL. Such accusations reveal the frustration that Bahai fundamentalists apparently feel over my having found ways of enduring and resisting the onslaught of their concerted attacks, while preserving a historical record on a markedly ephermeral medium for innocent Bahais and non-Bahais.... Fair-minded Bahai and non-Bahai observers may judge for themselves whether my and others' allegations of censorship are valid by reading the record preserved under "Assorted Controversial Documents" on my website at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm As further corroboration that I am not the only person concerned with the intolerance and censorship that has overtaken the Bahai Faith, I recommend Professor Juan Cole's new book Modernity & the Millennium: The Genesis of the Bahai Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East, available through Columbia University Press or Amazon.com at https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0231110812/002-4036721-8058448 In his conclusion, which would never have passed the system of Bahai "review" that the UHJ imposes on all publications brought out under its tight control, Professor Cole, of the Department of History at The University of Michigan, quite accurately identifies the distortions that have been wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings: "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriachy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth- century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed." (196) He himself and many others, as evidence under the "Assorted Controversial Documents," have suffered at the hands of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the religion: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement." (201) These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on AOL, talk.religion.bahai, and alt.religion.bahai for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. The UHJ is also in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums of public discussion. I recommend all newcomers to these matters read "The Bahai Technique": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm On The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:26 AM Subject: ~ bahai ~ soc.religion.bahai Censorship; trb FAQ This file contains two messages: talk.religion.bahai FAQ and observations on soc.religion.bahai censorship: ---------------------------------------------------- SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI: Robert J. Pease, December 5, 1998: "I support your efforts to expose SRB as a fundamentalist group." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb84.htm Ron House: "I think the following is a clear case of malicious rejection of an article by the worst of the moderators of soc.religion.bahai." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb53.htm Timothy Mulligan: "(Sigh) Fred, I'm beginning to think you're right about those SRB moderators." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb59.htm RobertNik: "these guys are pompous arseholes IMHO." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb54.htm Bruce Burrill: "What are Baha'i afraid of?" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb60.htm Zuteflute: "Frankly I could not see anything in the letter I wrote which would prompt someone to ask whether or not I am a Baha'i." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb50.htm YU ZIR: "But as an outsider, I can perhaps see the point Fred Glaysher is making, and which point none of SRB's defenders seem to address." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb46.htm Matthew Cromer: "The current moderators regulate the contents--posting articles which they agree with...." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb47.htm Kavosh Soltani, December 9, 1998: "So many Bahais on these forums have shown to be ready to forget logic and reason, ignore clear evidence and Word of God, and come up with exactly the same line of tired and inaccurate excuses and arguments to justify their position, that it can not be a simple coincidence." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb77.htm Shakti3, December 4, 1998: "Sorry to hear that you've been surpressed on srb. Your comments were alway very "right on." Altho it does not surprise me one bit, seeing the way these newsgroups operate." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Ex7.htm Harold Shinsato: "It seems like there is an oppression over the Baha'i Faith." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb33.htm Steve Tomljenovic, December 3, 1998: "The moderators are a bit overzealous at times. Since all the controversy started, it has gotten worse." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb79.htm Laeterna: "To say I was flabberghasted at this type of "moderating" was putting it mildly indeed." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/censored2.htm Robin Peters: "I think you're to be commended for your persistence in the face of consistent censorship." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb43.htm jgoldberg: "I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. " https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb57.htm Ruletherod, November 17, 1998: "Too much damage has already been done in the name and to the name of Baha'u'llah by right-wing administrative bullies, linear-thinking apologists, and doctrinaire-fundamentalists. You can't just blame it all on the critics." https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb76.htm Many other similar messages may be found on my web site under soc.religion.bahai censorship. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for Alt.Religion.Bahai, Talk.Religion.Bahai This FAQ will be reposted approximately every two weeks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ People with only web access might want to use www.deja.com www.reference.com or www.newsguy.com or https://www.remarq.com/ They all offer reading and posting capabilities for people who can't directly access alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai and filter out spam. Alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai are available on America Online (AOL) Keyword, Newsgroups, then search for alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai An unmoderated Italian Bahai newgroup is now available: it.cultura.religioni.bahai If your ISP does not offer talk.religion.bahai, follow this news.groupie advice: "If your ISP doesn't have the group shortly, I suggest that you ask the newsmaster there to add it (Try news@isp.net, or newsmaster@isp.net) Ask politely. Include the msg ID of the results posting, and of the newgroup msg." Dave Cornejo's RESULT posting: https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp? AN=431106082&CONTEXT=918305125.781648012&hi tnum=0 David Lawrence's newgroup msg creating talk.religion.bahai: https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp? AN=434026333&CONTEXT=918304600.713490686&hi tnum=3 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ NOTE: Not all people agree on the interpretations given below. Question #1 "Why create arb or t.r.b.?" ANSWER #1: Because many people believe they experienced or are continuing to experience censorship when attempting to post to soc.religion.bahai. See the quotations from Abdu'l-Baha: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ANSWER #2: Because the Bahai writings support free speech and religious conscience. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ANSWER #3: [fill in the blank according to your own opinion.] Question #2: "Why do the srb moderators oppose trb?" ANSWER: Perhaps they'll supply an answer to place here. (Three years later their NO votes are their only answer.) Question #3: "Are Bahais opposed to freedom of speech and conscience?" ANSWER: Despite glowing words of love and support for other people's opinions, despite the Universal House of Justice stating at least publicly it is not opposed to an unmoderated forum, the record of actual behavior by Bahais and on soc.religion.bahai and the experience of TENS of THOUSANDS of Bahais and people who have left the Bahai Faith give serious reason for concern. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chronology of major events: talk.religion.bahai ---------------------------------------------------------------------- January 17, 1997: The 1st proposal for talk.religion.bahai was submitted to news.announce.newgroups. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/1stRFD.htm Early March 1997: Mark Towfiq, chairman of the BCCA, the Bahai Computer and Communication Association, posts to three Bahai-only mailing lists a call for Bahais to vote NO against talk.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Towfiq.htm March 1997: soc.religion.bahai bans all discussion of talk.religion.bahai from its newsgroup. This ban is still in effect more than a year and a half later. March 31, 1997: The 1st proposal was defeated 157 YES to 691 NO. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/1stRESULT.htm April 3, 1997: Jonathan Grobe, a non-Bahai, creates alt.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/arb.htm October 14, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases a message stating it has no objection to unmoderated newsgroups: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJ1.htm November 1997: At a time when discussion was highly favorable in support of talk.religion.bahai, the BCCA deprives Frederick Glaysher of access to the private Bahai-only mailing list bahai-discuss and all of its other lists, inflaming Bahai passions against trb. See bahai-discuss archived files and correspondence between Frederick Glaysher and the BCCA committee: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/archive.htm December 19, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases a message that suggests it does not understand the nature of Usenet interest polling: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJ2.htm January 12, 1998: The 2nd proposal for talk.religion.bahai was submitted. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/2ndRFD.htm February 22, 1998: The 2nd proposal was defeated 109 YES to 65 NO. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/2ndRESULT.htm May 25, 1998: srb bans all messages from Frederick Glaysher that contain his signature file: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb23.htm September 9,1998: America Online (AOL) places a Bahai-inspired TOS against Frederick Glaysher; AOL removes the TOS after considering both sides of the issue, i.e., Bahai messages attacking and threatening him and the experience of others: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm September 14, 1998: soc.religion.bahai extends its ban on Frederick Glaysher's signature file to include all signature files and URLs from all posters, allowing only email addresses and the name of the poster: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srbban.htm October 14, 1998: Soc.religion.bahai moderator Bill Hyman backbites and casts aspersions on proponent Ron House and attempts to undermine the new support for the "neutral" RFD: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb67.htm December 3, 1998: The Call For Votes (CFV) was posted to news.announce.newgroups and news.groups for the 3rd interest poll for talk.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRFD.htm December 7, 1998: Bahai scholar Susan Maneck begins her NO vote campaign on AOL and alt.religion.bahai. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm January 10, 1999: Talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63. https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRESULT.htm It should be noted that talk.religion.bahai eventually passed despite of the opposition of Bahais. The annotated RESULT may be read at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/3rdRESULT.htm The annotated NO voters list may be read at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/NOvoters3rd.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------ For past discussion of censorship on soc.religion.bahai and other issues, including censorship within the Bahai community, see the website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/index.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This document at https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/FAQ.htm See The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:29 AM Subject: ~ bahai ~ Discussion Agenda I provide the "headlines" below for newcomers and Bahais on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai. Otherwise, other than my periodic reposts to preserve the historical record, I expect to be posting less frequently, having learnt during the last years, since fall 1996, what I needed to know about my fellow Bahais and the uhj.... I am content to have played a central role in the propagation or creation of alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai, forums where others of all points of view and persuasions may now speak freely about the Bahai faith. Should anything be posted that might be especially suitable for my website, I'd appreciate someone emailing a copy to patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com with "Bahai" in the subject line. Unlikely as it may be, should the uhj come to its senses and abolish "review," I'd appreciate someone informing me to that effect.... In the meantime, I must return to my literary interests, prepared for, and now accepting, a more arduous psychomachia.... Others will have to step forward.... Patrick Henry.... The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------- Newcomers might want to start here: The Bahai Technique Essential Reading soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations Documenting Censorship alt.religion.bahai & talk.religion.bahai FAQ(Frequently Asked Questions) Bahais on AOL Late 1998 & early 1999 Bahai Attacks I & II Fall & Spring 1999 Bahai Threats of Lawsuits During Spring 1999 Discussion Agenda for Talk.Religion.Bahai (Topics Bahais never discuss) Continuing Harassment 1/31/2000 To uhj 12-10-1999 To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Juan Cole surveys the major incidents of Bahai censorship: "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997" "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Baha'i Scriptures" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Assorted Controversial Documents "A Modest Proposal" 1987 David Langness "The Service of Women" 1988 Several authors [Bahai] "Psychiatrist cuts deal on sex assault charges" 4/94 re Dr. Danesh The Majnun Post 2/7/96 (On talisman) John Walbridge The Pickering Tape 4/96 "Crisis of Faith" 5/15/96 Steven Scholl Letter: Stephen Birkland, Continental Board of Counsellors 7/16/96 "Baha'i Leaders Vexed by On-Line Critics" Winter 1997 Stephen Scholl re the suppression of Dialogue Magazine 1997 Mark Towfiq's NO Vote Campaign on BCCA mailing lists 3/12/97 Michael McKenny - uhj throws him out of the Bahai faith 7/97 BCCA Collusion Suppressing talk.religion.bahai Fall 1997 Susan Maneck's NO Vote Campaign on AOL 12/7/98 Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - NSA warns Australian Bahais 11/4/97 Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - his response to Bahai NSA Surveillance 9/7/99 My case - a letter to my friends 7/28/99 Terry Culhane Juan Cole, Dismissal of NSA Member Judge James F. Nelson... April, 1999A Brief History of Douglas Martin, member, uhj 1/31/00 "Suppression and Distortion in . . . Baha'i Literature" Vance Salisbury How "Review" acts as Censorship 3/28/00 Alison Marshall re Bahai World Alison Marshall - "Removed your Name from Membership Rolls" 3/29/00 Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" Letter of Resignation - Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Universal House of Justice From the UHJ: 14 October 1997 From the UHJ: 19 December 1997 To the UHJ: December 21, 1997 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Newspaper Articles/Releases "Critics chafe at Baha'i conservatism" IRA RIFKIN c.1997 Religion News Service "Such Freedoms": New York Times, January 1998 NSA Media Release 12/6/1998 -------------------------------------- For the full text of the messages above, see https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997," which surveys the many, many incidents of censorship and oppression that have taken place in the Bahai faith during the last decade or more: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:30 AM Subject: ~ bahai ~ Continual Harassment I believe it is the counter on my website, registering over 18,000, that inspires the desperate, futile efforts of my fellow Bahais to silence and discredit me, as well as their fanatical attempts to suppress any possible knowledge of the truth documented there. In February 2000, I filed a police report regarding a variety of items and placed a trace on my telephone line. Other actions have been taken. While my fellow Bahais continue to attack, harass, malign, and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, and elsewhere, falsely accusing me of "spamming," of misrepresenting the intrigues of the "universal" house of "justice" to silence and ostracize people, of being mentally unstable and so on, it has been widely observed by other Bahais and non-Bahais that Bahai fundamentalists routinely refuse all discussion of the facts and EVIDENCE of the oppression and tyranny committed by the uhj. Those interested in impartially judging my sanity and background for themselves may find my bio helpful: https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm ----- The non-Bahai observer might want to give careful consideration to the probability that the ujh itself supported and encouraged this person in his continual harassment of me since I notified them of his actions on January 30, 2000, receiving back confirmation of their receipt of my message, while he continued hounding me for weeks. The three-plus year record of Bahai tyranny, on my website, documents that fundamentalist Bahais have gone from one attempt to another in the hope of silencing me and many, many others. ----- On January 30, 2000, I wrote to the uhj: A Bahai continues to harass me despite my polite requests that he cease emailing me his insults and threats. I hold the uhj directly responsible for the actions of this and other Bahai fanatics. The uhj routinely inspires this type of fundamentalism in my fellow Bahais and then uses them to suppress and control others. I shall be sending a copy of this message to the uhj along with the individual's name and email address. As a member of the Bahai faith since 1976, I have every right to express my conscience and beliefs as both Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha guaranteed their followers.... -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Bahá'í World Centre To: Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 11:09 AM Subject: RE: Bahai>>> Continuing Harassment Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message has been received at the Bahá'í World Centre. Electronic Communications Operation, Bahá'í World Centre ----- When I asked him to desist, he spammed my account with a dozen copies of this message: >I will post you and I will stand behind everything I wrote............. One of his earlier messages was: > You have truly mastered the high-tech form of rhetorical masturbation. >You continue to post the things which seem to excite you the most to people >who don't really care what you are posting. It is a shame that you feel >that this has become such a deep seated motivation for so much of your time.I have heard all the drivel you are posting, before, and it has always come >from individuals who have had their hand slapped for one reason or another. >Get over it. The Baha'i Faith is divine and nothing you can say(mostly >imagination) can ever effect it in the least. You will never have the >opportunity to understand the significance of the UHJ or its members in >your lifetime. Jealousy takes all forms. Why not stick to an area of your >expertise and get out of this one? No one here cares anymore about you or >your fantasies. "Mark Elderkin" wrote in message news:JuXu4.20$1j4.2147@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net... > > > It was a common stratagem of the Soviets and > > their academic puppets in the West to smear > > the characters and reputations of people who > > had the courage and honesty to confront the reality > > of the use of terror and tyranny by Stalin and his > > ilk. > > > > Comparably speaking, it will require a great effort on > > the part of those interested in the truth about the > > current Bahai uhj if they are not to be misled by my > > fellow Bahais and their deceptions on talk.religion.bahai > > and elsewhere. > > It is nice to see that Fred can actually write a real posting here. Now if we can get Fred to quit cross-posting to people who don't want to here or see of him. I have an idea. I think Fred needs to quit hiding behind his > usual spam postings of Patrick Henry. So ..... here goes...... 'give me > liberty or, > give Fred a call: > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXX > and as you can see, I have cross-posted this to all of Fred Preselected > news-servers. Let your fingers do the walking. > Mark "Mark Elderkin" wrote in message news:hH1v4.125$1j4.6711@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net... > Pat and all others concerned, > I probably misstepped the guidelines by posting Freddys Facts ........ > but I think it will give Fred a chance to realize that he is not-so > anonomous anymore and might wish to quit cross-posting. I understand that > there are a lot of crazys out there that might not like the things he > regularly posts and now he can't hide behind his mothers dress. I have > posted my own phone number before and will always make myself available for > anyones input. Thanks. > Always Remember... Let your fingers do the walking. > Mark ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 7:32 AM Subject: ~ bahai ~ David Horowitz - Radical Son "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). --David Horowitz - Radical Son For similar observations, see "The Bahai Technique": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 5:35 PM Subject: Re: www.bahai.us.com - new issue > In article <8olqds$hjf$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > almarbig@my-deja.com wrote: > > What Ho chaps and chapettes! > > > > A Special Edition of Brave New World is up for your perusal at > > https://www.bahai.us.com Whooooaaaaa! What a scream! Big Al, I've gotta hand it to ya. Ya understand da beast.... Love that DOLLAR SIGN$$$$$ And what an honor to be lampooned on your guestbook! THOU SHALT NOT STOP!!!! "SRB POSTS A MESSAGE." (Glad to hear I'm not the only to notice how rare that is :-). May Swift bless you from on high, Fred ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 8:02 AM Subject: bahai "scholar" Susan Maneck Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 8:04 AM Subject: Improve your bahai newsgroup experience Click on Tools, then Message Rules, followed by News. Add for talk.religion.bahai and for alt.religion.bahai the email addresses of the bahai fundamentalists and fanatics of your choice. Click on Apply Now. Further word of advice based on over three and a half years online: Also add them to Blocked Senders List. One of the best things about IE5 is that it is so easy to add fundamentalists as they show up or adopt other false identities. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 8:05 AM Subject: Character assassination "But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence." --K. Paul Johnson Full text via https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 8:07 AM Subject: Biographical note Impartial nonbahai observers might wish to compare and decide for themselves whether the concerted picture fundamentalists labor so hard to paint of me is accurate or not: https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm And then ask yourself why would they go to such extremes? What is it they don't want you to know? I submit the answers may be found on my bahai webpages.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 8:09 AM Subject: Ever-Continuing Relevance of bahai Technique Try the new easy to print format! "The Bahai Technique": https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 8:10 AM Subject: bahais don't take criticism seriously.... "In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out as "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." --Gibro Full text in an easy to print format via https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 8:12 AM Subject: Baha'u'llah on Tyranny Selections from the Writings of Baha'u'llah on Tyranny and Oppression: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Tyranny.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 8:28 AM Subject: The Maneck Technique - (Re: Juan's Comment Noted) I believe the observations made here by Karen Bacquet are quite perceptive of what Susan Maneck is really up to. Let me add that other bahai fundamentalists operate along similar lines. Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Karen Bacquet" wrote in message news:8omb8e$7np$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8ol3hl$49v$1@gnamma.connect.com.au>, > "Nima Hazini" wrote: > > Susan, > > It is so glaringly obvious how you are yanking everyone's chain > here, > > that it's not funny anymore! > > > > Nima > > > Dear Nima, > > Of course! Chain-yanking is what this woman is all about. I watched > the exchange between Juan and Susan very carefully, and the emotional > dynamic going on here is really a sight to behold. > > This has got nothing to do with Susan's beliefs, her moral outrage, or > loyalty to the AO or any of that. This is about emotional manipulation > and control. > > I don't think she ever intended to post that letter. What she really > wanted to do was fuck with Juan's mind. (Note that I only use four- > letter words to describe situations ugly enough to merit it.) She just > wanted to hook him into a confrontation and jerk him around a little. > Why should she post the letter when she can savor the sense of power > she gets from imagining that he is squirming and waiting for the other > shoe to drop? I saw the gloating remark about "what's on her hard > drive" -- she's totally getting off on this power trip. > > You didn't ask for my advice, Nima, but I'll give it any way: stop > sparring with this woman. As long as you do, you're still playing her > game. > > Love, Karen ---------- From: FG@hotmail.com[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 9:28 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Juan's Comment Noted ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by FG@hotmail.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: Juan's Comment Noted From: kpauljohnson@my-deja.com Date: 2000/09/02 Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.bahai In article <8oovva$a2v$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, patk9018@my-deja.com wrote: > Allahu Abha! Namaste! > > Hey, I thought you'd drop in sooner. I think this one has run its > course. Seems that the relative credibility of Maneck and Cole has become symbolic of much wider issues of trust and reliability. I noticed Karen stopped by, too. Did this latest Hatfield- > McCoy incident get mentioned on some other forum? Yes. If so, why not > sooner? It was sooner. I was on vacation in California (where Baha'is have snatched up some highly visible stretches of road to adopt, e.g where the 210 reaches the 5.) > > > Well, that does sound unflattering, It was deceptive. I was described as someone who had bounced from one religion to another ever since leaving Baha'i, chronically dissatisfied, temporarily at rest among the followers of Edgar Cayce. Implication: this guy is unstable, not to be taken seriously, acting out of idiosyncratic religio-psychological motives. The truth: I left Baha'i in 1974 and by the end of 1977 had focused my spiritual interests on Cayce and Blavatsky and affiliated with the movements they founded; have had no formal affiliation with any other movements in the subsequent 23 years; remain on good terms with both A.R.E. and the Theosophical movement as evidenced by the fact that this month I'll be participating as a speaker in colloquia for both groups; studied Blavatsky and Cayce in such a focused way as to result in three well-received and influential university press books-- even though I'm not an academic as Maneck has scornfully noted. Implication: this guy is stable, to be taken seriously, siding with Cole out of empathy with a a persecuted scholar despite having little interest in Baha'i politics for their own sake. (Rather, it's how Baha'i illustrates wider issues about religion and scholarship that intrigue me.) I complain about this because Susan's MO in my case as in Juan's was to impugn integrity and blame the messenger rather than deal with the substance of argument, and to dismiss someone whose scholarship in religious history has been widely recognized as balanced and objective. This pattern says something. but if someone brought up your > article on this forum, some might engage in speculations as to your > motivation. Speculations are fine. Dismissive and false descriptions of the author of a piece, without a single attempt to discuss it objectively, don't inspire confidence. Look at the extract of the 3 Aug letter - Juan has decided > its really from Doug Martin. These things happen. > > > > > Juan has in my experience fit this description consistently. > > Juan is certainly capable of restrained, diplomatic, "Good Boy Scout > all around" discourse, even when provoked w/ nastiness. But nastiness from someone who was once a friend, who played sounding board at a time of great sorrow and then betrayed one, becoming an enemy publicly and privately, is not just any nastiness. This is a heavy karmic deal between these two. > > Sorry, when the Dan-Jane 'debate' gets going, all sorts of pejoratives > come out. What does _tenure_ really have to do w/ the topic? It does Only this. Susan is saying (mostly to Baha'is): "You can't trust Juan; he's a deceiver and manipulator acting out of destructive motives." How much respect and recognition the accuser and accused have in the scholarly world is relevant to evaluating their credibility in this dispute. > > Just because Robert doesn't have a web page dedicated to the missteps > of the AO does not mean he does not see. All I've seen is a steady record of denial or at least diversion. Refusal to discuss the real problems, and focusing on blaming the messengers. > > > b) recognizing the virtues of the AO's victims > > Not so. I agree with much of the virtues Robert recognizes in Nima. Missed that. > > > You've been out for a couple of months, I'm sure we are all glad to see > you stop in, but in the rare coin of credibility w/in 'the other camp', > who really has much more than nominal credibility? You for example have more with me than Robert because you aren't as predictable. I know that you are > perfectly capable of being unbiased at times, but I associate you > w/ 'the other camp' and I tend not to assume that something is so just > because you said so. My facts are pretty reliable and my judgments are clearly labeled as such. It's when people present their judgments as facts that you really have to look out. I should hope you see me in largely the same way; > you wouldn't take my conclusions w/o considering the examples I offer, > right? Sure. Cheers, PJ > > Good to see you back. Stay dry. > > Blessings! > - Pat > kohli@ameritel.net > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/thread/%3c8oqspi$c2f$1@nnrp1.deja.com%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/ ---------- From: FG@hotmail.com[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 9:35 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Juan's Comment Noted ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was forwarded to you from Deja.com by FG@hotmail.com. Deja.com offers free consumer information, including ratings and reviews on thousands of products and services. Before you buy, visit https://www.deja.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (beginning of original message) Subject: Re: Juan's Comment Noted From: Karen Bacquet Date: 2000/08/31 Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai In article <8ol3hl$49v$1@gnamma.connect.com.au>, "Nima Hazini" wrote: > Susan, > It is so glaringly obvious how you are yanking everyone's chain here, > that it's not funny anymore! > > Nima Dear Nima, Of course! Chain-yanking is what this woman is all about. I watched the exchange between Juan and Susan very carefully, and the emotional dynamic going on here is really a sight to behold. This has got nothing to do with Susan's beliefs, her moral outrage, or loyalty to the AO or any of that. This is about emotional manipulation and control. I don't think she ever intended to post that letter. What she really wanted to do was fuck with Juan's mind. (Note that I only use four- letter words to describe situations ugly enough to merit it.) She just wanted to hook him into a confrontation and jerk him around a little. Why should she post the letter when she can savor the sense of power she gets from imagining that he is squirming and waiting for the other shoe to drop? I saw the gloating remark about "what's on her hard drive" -- she's totally getting off on this power trip. You didn't ask for my advice, Nima, but I'll give it any way: stop sparring with this woman. As long as you do, you're still playing her game. Love, Karen Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. (end of original message) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You can view this message and the related discussion by following this link: https://www.deja.com/thread/%3c8omb8e$7np$1@nnrp1.deja.com%3e%231/1 We hope to see you soon at Deja.com. Before you buy. https://www.deja.com/ ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_henry1776@my-deja.com] Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 9:49 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Juan's Comment Noted In article <8opmfq$425$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, kpauljohnson@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <8op7ir$jci$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, But the bottom line remains, I've > seen Susan do really hateful things to people, whereas Fred just rants > and raves and has no power to hurt anyone. You're aghast at the loud > barking on one side of the fence and not noticing that quieter dog > on the other side is the one that really bites. > > PJ Paul, Please be fair. I do not "rant and rave." And I'm glad to hear you think I have no "power to hurt anyone" since I do not wish to, nor regard myself as trying, to hurt anyone. It's hard for me to see Ms. Maneck as a "quiet dog." Rather quite vociferous and vicious, really. If you look more carefully and objectively at my posts, they are merely stating my views and chronicling the sad state of bahai affairs as I see them for the benefit of newcomers uninformed of the record. Many will disagree, and I do not dispute their right to do so calling them ranters and ravers.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 8:03 AM Subject: ~ bahai ~ Very Serious Suggestion - MILLENNIUM SUMMIT Sept 5-8, 2000 Seriously consider WHY Maneck and other bahai fundamentalists are causing all this strife over a piece of OLD news.... During the last four years, I've seen them do this type of thing on a number of occasions. I suggest there is something else going on. It has the look of a diversionary tactic to my mind. And they create a huge flood of messages which accomplishes two things: 1. It renders more difficult for non-bahai observers to find the messages on trb and arb they don't want them to read. 2. It flushes out many servers around the world that are only set up to hold about a week's worth of postings. Why would they do this now? The only explanation I can think of is because of the Millennium Summit Sept. 5-8, its related conferences (see below), and all of their other intrigues at the United Nations to present themselves as the future for humankind, God forbid.... Also, it falls perfectly into The Bahai Technique: A lot of people lose their patience with the fanatics and strike back allowing non-bahai observers to think it's just religious bickering, as usual, which serves the fundamentalists' designs, concealing the endemic tyranny that now holds sway over the lives of rank and file bahais. Consider too how concerted a number of literalists have suddenly shown up spouting off with their predictable accusations and excuses. For further details of bahai activities at the United Nations see https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UN.htm and https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UN2.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm DPI/NGO Conference, August 28-30, 2000: BAHA'I INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY E/D 866 United Nations Plaza Suite 120 New York NY 10017 UNITED STATES Ahderom, Techeste Arturo, Lawrence Dugal-Gujral, Bani Mahboubian, Nikoo Michael, Suzanne ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 8:09 AM Subject: Re: ~ bahai ~ Very Serious Suggestion - MILLENNIUM SUMMIT Sept 5-8, 2000 Seriously consider WHY Maneck and other bahai fundamentalists are causing all this strife over a piece of OLD news.... During the last four years, I've seen them do this type of thing on a number of occasions. I suggest there is something else going on. It has the look of a diversionary tactic to my mind. And they create a huge flood of messages which accomplishes two things: 1. It renders more difficult for non-bahai observers to find the messages on trb and arb they don't want them to read. 2. It flushes out many servers around the world that are only set up to hold about a week's worth of postings. Why would they do this now? The only explanation I can think of is because of the Millennium Summit Sept. 5-8, its related conferences (see below), and all of their other intrigues at the United Nations to present themselves as the future for humankind, God forbid.... Also, it falls perfectly into The Bahai Technique: A lot of people lose their patience with the fanatics and strike back allowing non-bahai observers to think it's just religious bickering, as usual, which serves the fundamentalists' designs, concealing the endemic tyranny that now holds sway over the lives of rank and file bahais. Consider too how concerted a number of literalists have suddenly shown up spouting off with their predictable accusations and excuses. For further details of bahai activities at the United Nations see https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UN.htm and https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UN2.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----- DPI/NGO Conference, August 28-30, 2000: BAHA'I INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY E/D 866 United Nations Plaza Suite 120 New York NY 10017 UNITED STATES Ahderom, Techeste Arturo, Lawrence Dugal-Gujral, Bani Mahboubian, Nikoo Michael, Suzanne (Found under "Millennium Related Events" link: https://www.un.org/millennium/ ) ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 8:33 AM Subject: ~ bahai ~ In Perfectly Good Standing.... I have been a member of the bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be foundon my main bahai page. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. The reason the uhj allows and encourages fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to backbite and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, and elsewhere may be discovered in the three messages below: To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJ72498.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/uhj12-10-99.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 8:34 AM Subject: ~ bahai ~ Credo I believe Baha'u'llah is the Prophet of God for mankind in this day and age. He Himself laid the foundation for the Universal House of Justice, hampered, thank God, though it is, by the loss of the Guardian. I trust that, in the long run of history, He will not leave his institution to itself but will lead it back, through perhaps the compelling Vision of his Writings and the devoted consciences of his followers, to its humble, modest, and balanced role as his legislative body. I have never repudiated my belief in Baha'u'llah nor the legitimacy of his institutions. That some benighted individual bahais have temporarily distorted the bahai faith into a hideous form of fanaticism and fundamentalism does not negate the Truth of his Revelation and its saving grace for this nihilistic desert. https://fglaysher.com/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 10:24 AM Subject: { bahai } Maneck Technique I believe the observations made here by Karen Bacquet are quite perceptive of what Susan Maneck is really up to. Let me add that other bahai fundamentalists operate along similar lines. Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Karen Bacquet" wrote in message news:8omb8e$7np$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8ol3hl$49v$1@gnamma.connect.com.au>, > "Nima Hazini" wrote: > > Susan, > > It is so glaringly obvious how you are yanking everyone's chain > here, > > that it's not funny anymore! > > > > Nima > > > Dear Nima, > > Of course! Chain-yanking is what this woman is all about. I watched > the exchange between Juan and Susan very carefully, and the emotional > dynamic going on here is really a sight to behold. > > This has got nothing to do with Susan's beliefs, her moral outrage, or > loyalty to the AO or any of that. This is about emotional manipulation > and control. > > I don't think she ever intended to post that letter. What she really > wanted to do was fuck with Juan's mind. (Note that I only use four- > letter words to describe situations ugly enough to merit it.) She just > wanted to hook him into a confrontation and jerk him around a little. > Why should she post the letter when she can savor the sense of power > she gets from imagining that he is squirming and waiting for the other > shoe to drop? I saw the gloating remark about "what's on her hard > drive" -- she's totally getting off on this power trip. > > You didn't ask for my advice, Nima, but I'll give it any way: stop > sparring with this woman. As long as you do, you're still playing her > game. > > Love, Karen ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 11:54 AM Subject: Re: Juan's Comment Noted You're entitled to your opinion.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8or5g3$l7a$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > > Paul, > > > > Please be fair. I do not "rant and rave." > > Okay. You don't rant and rave. You simply annoy the hell (and beyond) > out people with your continuous, repetitious (cross) postings, which in > the recent Maneck case added nothing by being repeated and repeated and > re-repeated. You add very little to any conversation or argument by > your boilerplate postings. You have been asked more than once to stop > the cross posting, which often bring onto ARB and TRB wackos from the > cross posted list. You have absolutely no perspective on how you are > coming across here, and because of that and because of what is seen as > a fanatical obsession, any valid argument you might present in your > repetative posting is not taken seriously. Not taken seriously at all. > You are here your own worst enemy. Where you could have been a voice > for change and conscience, you have made your self into a wacko, not to > taken seriously. > > It certainly is not too late to rehabilitate yourself. > One thing you need to do is dial it back, way back. > > Good luck > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 9:05 AM Subject: Antinomies https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Antinomies.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 7:19 AM Subject: Re: [ bahai ] A Very Serious Suggestion (Re: April 3 Letter - Where?) Juan Cole: "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech about the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You will note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long-term heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose with the facts,' and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused of all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been backbitten by them." Full text via The Bahai Technique: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000905025235.12320.00007552@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >I dunno, but from where I sit, the only facts we know fersure are the > >ones provided by Juan. > > Dear Michael, > > That is true. But the fact Cole himself provided was the fact that he had > inserted additional material into a fax he scanned and then falsely represented > that as something that was being circulated to any one who inquired about his > book. > > >If Dr. Maneck does not want to provide > >refutation, that's her choice, > > What is there to refute? My original accusation was that, Cole was tampering > with texts. Since he himself has admitted to doing this what is to be served by > posting the original document? > > warmest, Susan > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 7:27 AM Subject: Re: Comments on Doug's Letter Part Three Impartial observers of this thread may find it useful to consider a few of Ms. Maneck's messages that reveal her frequent unethical approach to online discussion and her lack of scholarly principles: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Her slandering other views as Garbage: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Her slandering other views as Litter: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/Maneck7.htm See also her efforts to censor free speech on AOL: https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOL.htm https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000904172328.09727.00002762@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >> he misleadingly made it appear the review was > >> the primary purpose of the Aug. 3 letter, when in fact it involved a > >matter of > >> much greater seriousness. > > > >LOL! And what exactly was that matter of seriousness, Manic > > The matter of greater seriousness, as you well know, was the the recipients > relationship to the Covenant. > > ---------- From: PatrickHenry1954[SMTP:patrickhenry1954@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 10:06 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: TOS Guidelines >The Bill of Rights are the laws of this country, Sunni. They're greater than >AOL's rules. Do you remember what they are? Do you uphold them as a >Baha'i, as Baha'u'llah demanded? If you did, you would quit bringing up the >need to silence posters with the threat of being TOSsed. Nothing is presently > >happening at this board to warrant this kind of discussion. > >--Rule I believe Rule is quite right here. It's the fundamentalists and fanatics among my fellow bahais who are abusing the law of the land in contravention of the Teachings of Baha'u'llah---not those, like myself and others, Juan Cole, etc., who have attempted to defend free speech and inquiry.... - Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 6:40 AM Subject: bahai -- MILLENNIUM SUMMIT As an accredited participant, I attended the United Nations Millennium Forum of civil society organizations from May 22-26, 2000. Some may be interested in knowing that bahais were central to the event which produced a report to advise heads of state to the Millennium Summit this September at the United Nations - the first such gathering of so many national heads since WW II. "The final edited version of the "We the Peoples Millennium Forum Declaration and Agenda for Action" has now been posted to the Forum's Website. This version includes ... several final additions that were adopted by the Forum on Friday, 26 May 2000 during its final session." It can be found through links at: https://www.millenniumforum.org as well as directly at: https://www.millenniumforum.org/html/papers/mfd26May.htm RealPlayer video of several Millennium Forum sessions, including Techeste Ahderom, co-chair of the forum and principal representative to the United Nations, bahai international community: https://www.un.org/millennium/summit1.htm Also some might find Kofi Annan's "We the Peoples," his official recommendations that will serve as the basis for this September's Millennium Summit, interesting: https://www.un.org/millennium/sg/report/ The uhj, in it's ridvan [April] 2000 message, jubilantly celebrated their increase of power, control, and influence at the United Nations: "It must be a source of great satisfaction to Baha'is everywhere that the Baha'i International Community as an NGO representing a cross-section of humankind has won such trust as a unifying agent in major discussions shaping the future of humankind. Our principal representative at the United Nations was appointed to co-chair the Committee on Non-Governmental Organizations, which was established by the Economic and Social Council--a position that is giving the Baha'i International Community a leading role in the organization of the Millennium Forum. This gathering, called by UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan and scheduled to be held in May, will give organizations of civil society an opportunity to formulate views and recommendations on global issues which will be taken up at the subsequent Millennium Summit in September of this year to be attended by heads of state and government." https://www.bahai-library.org/published.uhj/ridvan/index.html It was quite an experience hearing Techeste Ahderom, the bahai representative and Forum co-chair, in the UN General Assembly Hall, urging hypocritically the importance of strengthening human rights throughout the world.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 6:42 AM Subject: bahai -- uhj & United Nations.... The uhj in "The Turning Point for All Nations," a 1997 policy piece aimed at the United Nations, presented to many prominent people in several different governments, hypocritically writes, "The minimum standards for conduct by a government towards its people have been well established in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and subsequent international covenants, collectively referred to as the International Bill of Human Rights." "Without an unshakable commitment to regular and periodic elections with universal participation by secret ballot, to ***freedom of expression*** and to other such ***human rights***, a member state stands in the way of the active and intelligent participation of the vast majority of its population in the affairs of its own communities." "We propose that there should be ***consequences*** for member states that violate these standards. Similarly, nations seeking recognition should be denied membership until they openly espouse these standards or make recognizable efforts to move in that direction." Yet the truth is that uhj has hypocritically violated the human rights of many, many Bahais, often intellectuals who have candidly expressed their views, often in the context of their studies and research, driving them out of the Bahai faith or ostracizing them, including academics in major American universities. It has done so without any ***consequences*** whatsoever, with impunity. The UN and other official government bodies should at least hold it accountable, instead of always being deceived by Bahai public relations people every time there is a crisis in Iran. The uhj continues its hypocrisy by saying "Far from encouraging the punitive spirit that has often masqueraded under its name in past ages, justice is the practical expression of awareness that, in the achievement of human progress, the interests of the individual and those of society are inextricably linked. To the extent that justice becomes a guiding concern of human interaction, a ***consultative climate*** is encouraged that permits options to be examined dispassionately and appropriate courses of action selected. In such a climate the perennial tendencies toward manipulation and partisanship are far less likely to deflect the decision-making process." It is the uhj itself that has poisoned the climate of the Bahai faith through suppression and tyranny and a pervasive ***punitive spirit*** that canonly tolerate its own fundamentalist voice. Many such passages of hypocrisy exist in the documents the uhj generates for release to the UN and various governments and public officials. Full text of "The Turning Point for All Nations" may be found at https://home.vicnet.net.au/~bahai/turning.html Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses other related human rights issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 6:43 AM Subject: bahai -- NEWCOMERS - START HERE If newcomers to talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai desire not to be deceived by bahai fundamentalists, it will require more than a passing glance at a few messages. I suggest you begin with the links below which provide a historical survey of the last several years of bahai censorship and then visit further my and Professor Cole's websites. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Bahai Technique ---- Essential Reading https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/technique.htm soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations Documenting Censorship https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/srb-bq.htm alt.religion.bahai & talk.religion.bahai FAQ https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/FAQ.htm Bahai Attacks & Bullying https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/BahaiAttacksonme.htm Bahai Threats of Lawsuits & Censorship on AOL https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/BahaiThreatsLawsuit.htm Discussion Agenda for Talk.Religion.Bahai https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/DiscussionAgendaTrb.htm False Membership Statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/FalseStats.htm Continuing Harassment 1/31/2000 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/CHarassment.htm uhj LIES to United Nations & US Government June 2000 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UN.htm bahais at United Nations Millennium Forum & Summit June 2000 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UN2.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/uhj12-10-99.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UHJ72498.htm To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, surveys the many incidents of bahai censorship that have taken place during the last few decades in "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 6:45 AM Subject: bahai -- A Most Serious Suggestion Seriously consider WHY Maneck and other bahai fundamentalists are now causing all this strife over a piece of OLD news on talk.religion.bahai.... During the last four years, I've seen them do this type of thing on a number of occasions. I suggest there is something else going on. It has the look of a diversionary tactic to my mind. And they create a huge flood of messages which accomplishes two things: 1. It renders more difficult for non-bahai observers to find the messages on trb and arb they don't want them to read. 2. It flushes out many servers around the world that are only set up to hold about a week's worth of postings. Why would they do this now? The only explanation I can think of is because of the Millennium Summit Sept. 5-8, its related conferences (see below), and all of their other intrigues at the United Nations to present themselves as the future for humankind, God forbid.... Also, it falls perfectly into The Bahai Technique: A lot of people lose their patience with the fanatics and strike back allowing non-bahai observers to think it's just religious bickering, as usual, which serves the fundamentalists' designs, concealing the endemic tyranny that now holds sway over the lives of rank and file bahais. Consider too how concerted a number of literalists have suddenly shown up spouting off with their predictable accusations and excuses. For further details of bahai activities at the United Nations see https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UN.htm and https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/UN2.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm DPI/NGO Conference, August 28-30, 2000: BAHA'I INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY E/D 866 United Nations Plaza Suite 120 New York NY 10017 UNITED STATES Ahderom, Techeste Arturo, Lawrence Dugal-Gujral, Bani Mahboubian, Nikoo Michael, Suzanne ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 6:47 AM Subject: bahai -- MILLENNIUM SUMMIT As an accredited participant, I attended the United Nations Millennium Forum of civil society organizations from May 22-26, 2000. Some may be interested in knowing that bahais were central to the event which produced a report to advise heads of state to the Millennium Summit this September at the United Nations - the first such gathering of so many national heads since WW II. "The final edited version of the "We the Peoples Millennium Forum Declaration and Agenda for Action" has now been posted to the Forum's Website. This version includes ... several final additions that were adopted by the Forum on Friday, 26 May 2000 during its final session." It can be found through links at: https://www.millenniumforum.org as well as directly at: https://www.millenniumforum.org/html/papers/mfd26May.htm RealPlayer video of several Millennium Forum sessions, including Techeste Ahderom, co-chair of the forum and principal representative to the United Nations, bahai international community: https://www.un.org/millennium/summit1.htm Also some might find Kofi Annan's "We the Peoples," his official recommendations that will serve as the basis for this September's Millennium Summit, interesting: https://www.un.org/millennium/sg/report/ The uhj, in it's ridvan [April] 2000 message, jubilantly celebrated their increase of power, control, and influence at the United Nations: "It must be a source of great satisfaction to Baha'is everywhere that the Baha'i International Community as an NGO representing a cross-section of humankind has won such trust as a unifying agent in major discussions shaping the future of humankind. Our principal representative at the United Nations was appointed to co-chair the Committee on Non-Governmental Organizations, which was established by the Economic and Social Council--a position that is giving the Baha'i International Community a leading role in the organization of the Millennium Forum. This gathering, called by UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan and scheduled to be held in May, will give organizations of civil society an opportunity to formulate views and recommendations on global issues which will be taken up at the subsequent Millennium Summit in September of this year to be attended by heads of state and government." https://www.bahai-library.org/published.uhj/ridvan/index.html It was quite an experience hearing Techeste Ahderom, the bahai representative and Forum co-chair, in the UN General Assembly Hall, urging hypocritically the importance of strengthening human rights throughout the world.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: abuse@tripod.com[SMTP:abuse@tripod.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 9:00 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Cancellation of your account Dear fglaysher, Tripod has received a variety of complaints regarding the promotion of your Tripod page by means of sending unsolicited e-mail or posting inappropriate messages to newsgroups. Known generally as spamming, these activites are costly and wasteful of Internet resources while being in direct violation of the Terms of Service that you agreed to at the time of registration. Tripod has therefore discontinued serving your content, and this notice should serve as cancellation of your Tripod membership. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 7:34 AM Subject: 19,000+ hits on Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Find out why.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 8:47 PM To: abuse@tripod.com Cc: Juan Cole Subject: Re: Cancellation of your account I ask you to seriously consider that the fundamentalists among my fellow Bahais are using Tripod to further their agenda. I must express surprise at your abrupt decision. Given the seriousness of your action, I believe I should at least be allowed to state that the charges you claim have been leveled against me are not true. I post and have posted only to newsgroups that are related to my interests in the censorship among my fellow Bahais: talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.misc (open to all faiths), soc.culture.iranian (Iran is where the Bahai Faith originated and many Bahais regularly post there), and soc.culture.israel (where we Bahais have our World Centre and many historic events took place). Please consider that each of these newsgroups has many extreme fundamentalists who not stop at ANYTHING to silence people with opinions other than their own. Their success in bringing down my site will only serve their purposes. Your charge of "spamming" is completely inaccurate and does not take into account the more than 10 years that Bahais have attempted to suppress all freedom of speech and conscience on and offline. While I've crossposted messages to the above 5 newsgroups that does not constitute spam and is nowhere near the 12 to 15 or more newsgroups that many people regularly post to. I'm concerned that Tripod is being deceived by a concerted effort of Bahais who are opposed not only to my own site but to anyone expressing opinions other than doctrinally acceptable views. As one example, I suggest you look at an article on the website of Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, The Baha’i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm If you take the time to read Professor Cole's article, or at least skim it, you should begin to realize there are many religious complexities of which you are not informed involved with my website. Bahais have on many occasions slandered people en masse in order to discredit them and seduce people into believing or acting in various ways as Professor Cole's article suggests. You might contact Professor Cole at jrcole@umich.edu for an independent opinion on this matter. I ask you to please reconsider your decision and reinstate my website or allow me to reupload it. Let me also say I started with Tripod when it was just beginning and have always appreciate its service and learnt a lot from it about building websites and so on. I have always been and endeavored to be a worthy member of the Tripod community and believe I still am. Thank you. I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible. Sincerely, Frederick Glaysher 668 Bolinger Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 248-651-3380 FG@hotmail.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 9:00 AM Subject: Cancellation of your account > Dear fglaysher, > > Tripod has received a variety of complaints regarding the promotion of your Tripod > page by means of sending unsolicited e-mail or posting inappropriate messages to newsgroups. > Known generally as spamming, these activites are costly and wasteful of Internet resources > while being in direct violation of the Terms of Service that you agreed to at the time of registration. Tripod > has therefore discontinued serving your content, and this notice should serve as cancellation of > your Tripod membership. > ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 8:58 PM To: Juan Cole Subject: A Request (Fw: Cancellation of your account) Juan, My gut feeling is that I've been set up during the last week or so with the whole Susan Maneck incident, as you were. It seemed to me she/they were intentionally flooding trb to suppress the relevant messages during the Millennium Summit. As a result, I may have posted a few too many times the same messages giving them the opportunity to appeal to Tripod. But I'm quite innocous compared to the real nuts out there. See my message below to Tripod. I'd appreciate it if you could put in a good word for me and the website in anyway, if you can in good conscience. Hate to have redo all those links and upload elsewhere.... Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frederick Glaysher" To: Cc: "Juan Cole" Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Cancellation of your account > I ask you to seriously consider that the fundamentalists > among my fellow Bahais are using Tripod to further their agenda. > > I must express surprise at your abrupt decision. Given the > seriousness of your action, I believe I should at least be allowed > to state that the charges you claim have been leveled against me > are not true. > > I post and have posted only to newsgroups that are > related to my interests in the censorship among my > fellow Bahais: talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, > talk.religion.misc (open to all faiths), soc.culture.iranian > (Iran is where the Bahai Faith originated and many Bahais > regularly post there), and soc.culture.israel (where we > Bahais have our World Centre and many historic events > took place). Please consider that each of these newsgroups > has many extreme fundamentalists who not stop at ANYTHING > to silence people with opinions other than their own. Their > success in bringing down my site will only serve their purposes. > > Your charge of "spamming" is completely inaccurate and > does not take into account the more than 10 years that > Bahais have attempted to suppress all freedom of speech > and conscience on and offline. While I've crossposted > messages to the above 5 newsgroups that does not constitute > spam and is nowhere near the 12 to 15 or more newsgroups that > many people regularly post to. > > I'm concerned that Tripod is being deceived by a concerted effort > of Bahais who are opposed not only to my own site but to anyone > expressing opinions other than doctrinally acceptable views. As one > example, I suggest you look at an article on the website of Professor > Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, > The Baha’i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > If you take the time to read Professor Cole's article, or at least > skim it, you should begin to realize there are many religious complexities > of which you are not informed involved with my website. Bahais have > on many occasions slandered people en masse in order to discredit > them and seduce people into believing or acting in various ways as > Professor Cole's article suggests. You might contact Professor Cole > at jrcole@umich.edu for an independent opinion on this matter. > > I ask you to please reconsider your decision and reinstate > my website or allow me to reupload it. > > Let me also say I started with Tripod when it was just beginning > and have always appreciate its service and learnt a lot from it > about building websites and so on. I have always been and > endeavored to be a worthy member of the Tripod community and > believe I still am. > > Thank you. I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible. > > Sincerely, > > Frederick Glaysher > 668 Bolinger > Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 > 248-651-3380 > FG@hotmail.com > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 9:00 AM > Subject: Cancellation of your account > > > > Dear fglaysher, > > > > Tripod has received a variety of complaints regarding the promotion of your Tripod > > page by means of sending unsolicited e-mail or posting inappropriate messages to newsgroups. > > Known generally as spamming, these activites are costly and wasteful of Internet resources > > while being in direct violation of the Terms of Service that you agreed to at the time of > registration. Tripod > > has therefore discontinued serving your content, and this notice should serve as cancellation of > > your Tripod membership. > > > ---------- From: abuse@tripod.com[SMTP:abuse@tripod.com] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 12:01 PM To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Re: Cancellation of your account (KMM5299871C0KM) Hello Frederick, Thank you for your concern but the account in question was found to be in violation of our Term of Service, specifically for the sending of unsolicited bulk emails that pointed to your Tripod page. Tripod does not condone nor will it subsidize such netiquette violations and removes such sites as we become aware of them. Consequently, this account will not be reinstated to our servers. Abuse Specialist Tripod.com - Part of the Lycos Network Original message follows: ------------------------- I ask you to seriously consider that the fundamentalists among my fellow Bahais are using Tripod to further their agenda. I must express surprise at your abrupt decision. Given the seriousness of your action, I believe I should at least be allowed to state that the charges you claim have been leveled against me are not true. I post and have posted only to newsgroups that are related to my interests in the censorship among my fellow Bahais: talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.misc (open to all faiths), soc.culture.iranian (Iran is where the Bahai Faith originated and many Bahais regularly post there), and soc.culture.israel (where we Bahais have our World Centre and many historic events took place). Please consider that each of these newsgroups has many extreme fundamentalists who not stop at ANYTHING to silence people with opinions other than their own. Their success in bringing down my site will only serve their purposes. Your charge of "spamming" is completely inaccurate and does not take into account the more than 10 years that Bahais have attempted to suppress all freedom of speech and conscience on and offline. While I've crossposted messages to the above 5 newsgroups that does not constitute spam and is nowhere near the 12 to 15 or more newsgroups that many people regularly post to. I'm concerned that Tripod is being deceived by a concerted effort of Bahais who are opposed not only to my own site but to anyone expressing opinions other than doctrinally acceptable views. As one example, I suggest you look at an article on the website of Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, The Baha’i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm If you take the time to read Professor Cole's article, or at least skim it, you should begin to realize there are many religious complexities of which you are not informed involved with my website. Bahais have on many occasions slandered people en masse in order to discredit them and seduce people into believing or acting in various ways as Professor Cole's article suggests. You might contact Professor Cole at jrcole@umich.edu for an independent opinion on this matter. I ask you to please reconsider your decision and reinstate my website or allow me to reupload it. Let me also say I started with Tripod when it was just beginning and have always appreciate its service and learnt a lot from it about building websites and so on. I have always been and endeavored to be a worthy member of the Tripod community and believe I still am. Thank you. I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible. Sincerely, Frederick Glaysher 668 Bolinger Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 248-651-3380 FG@hotmail.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 9:00 AM Subject: Cancellation of your account > Dear fglaysher, > > Tripod has received a variety of complaints regarding the promotion of your Tripod > page by means of sending unsolicited e-mail or posting inappropriate messages to newsgroups. > Known generally as spamming, these activites are costly and wasteful of Internet resources > while being in direct violation of the Terms of Service that you agreed to at the time of registration. Tripod > has therefore discontinued serving your content, and this notice should serve as cancellation of > your Tripod membership. > ---------- From: abuse@tripod.com[SMTP:abuse@tripod.com] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 2:48 PM To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Re: Cancellation of your account (KMM5301537C0KM) Hello Frederick, Thank you for your concern but the account in question was found to be in violation of our Term of Service, specifically for the sending of unsolicited bulk emails that pointed to your Tripod page. Tripod does not condone nor will it subsidize such netiquette violations and removes such sites as we become aware of them. Consequently, this account will not be reinstated to our servers. Abuse Specialist Tripod.com - Part of the Lycos Network Original message follows: ------------------------- Tripod Abuse Specialist: There appears to be a misunderstanding on the part of Tripod. I have not sent any "unsolicited bulk emails." I have posted to a very limited number of newsgroups (only 5) messages with my signature file and specific documents on my Tripod account which are relevant to many readers of those newsgroups. That a few would complain is only to expected of newsgroups given to Israel, Iran, and religious discussion! Let me emphasize I have not sent any email from my Tripod account and don't even have an email account with Tripod that I can recall or ever use. Since I joined Tripod back in May of 1998, if you have now changed your terms of service to include any posts whatsoever on newsgroups, I would appreciate notification to that effect so that I might be aware of it and follow it. Again, I value my website being on Tripod and request that you reactivate my account and inform me as to what your policy is. Sincerely, Frederick Glaysher 668 Bolinger Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 248-651-3380 FG@hotmail.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Frederick Glaysher" Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 12:01 PM Subject: Re: Cancellation of your account (KMM5299871C0KM) Hello Frederick, Thank you for your concern but the account in question was found to be in violation of our Term of Service, specifically for the sending of unsolicited bulk emails that pointed to your Tripod page. Tripod does not condone nor will it subsidize such netiquette violations and removes such sites as we become aware of them. Consequently, this account will not be reinstated to our servers. Abuse Specialist Tripod.com - Part of the Lycos Network Original message follows: ------------------------- I ask you to seriously consider that the fundamentalists among my fellow Bahais are using Tripod to further their agenda. I must express surprise at your abrupt decision. Given the seriousness of your action, I believe I should at least be allowed to state that the charges you claim have been leveled against me are not true. I post and have posted only to newsgroups that are related to my interests in the censorship among my fellow Bahais: talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.misc (open to all faiths), soc.culture.iranian (Iran is where the Bahai Faith originated and many Bahais regularly post there), and soc.culture.israel (where we Bahais have our World Centre and many historic events took place). Please consider that each of these newsgroups has many extreme fundamentalists who not stop at ANYTHING to silence people with opinions other than their own. Their success in bringing down my site will only serve their purposes. Your charge of "spamming" is completely inaccurate and does not take into account the more than 10 years that Bahais have attempted to suppress all freedom of speech and conscience on and offline. While I've crossposted messages to the above 5 newsgroups that does not constitute spam and is nowhere near the 12 to 15 or more newsgroups that many people regularly post to. I'm concerned that Tripod is being deceived by a concerted effort of Bahais who are opposed not only to my own site but to anyone expressing opinions other than doctrinally acceptable views. As one example, I suggest you look at an article on the website of Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm If you take the time to read Professor Cole's article, or at least skim it, you should begin to realize there are many religious complexities of which you are not informed involved with my website. Bahais have on many occasions slandered people en masse in order to discredit them and seduce people into believing or acting in various ways as Professor Cole's article suggests. You might contact Professor Cole at jrcole@umich.edu for an independent opinion on this matter. I ask you to please reconsider your decision and reinstate my website or allow me to reupload it. Let me also say I started with Tripod when it was just beginning and have always appreciate its service and learnt a lot from it about building websites and so on. I have always been and endeavored to be a worthy member of the Tripod community and believe I still am. Thank you. I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible. Sincerely, Frederick Glaysher 668 Bolinger Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 248-651-3380 FG@hotmail.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 9:00 AM Subject: Cancellation of your account > Dear fglaysher, > > Tripod has received a variety of complaints regarding the promotion of your Tripod > page by means of sending unsolicited e-mail or posting inappropriate messages to newsgroups. > Known generally as spamming, these activites are costly and wasteful of Internet resources > while being in direct violation of the Terms of Service that you agreed to at the time of registration. Tripod > has therefore discontinued serving your content, and this notice should serve as cancellation of > your Tripod membership. > ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 2:32 PM To: abuse@tripod.com Subject: Re: Cancellation of your account (KMM5299871C0KM) Tripod Abuse Specialist: There appears to be a misunderstanding on the part of Tripod. I have not sent any "unsolicited bulk emails." I have posted to a very limited number of newsgroups (only 5) messages with my signature file and specific documents on my Tripod account which are relevant to many readers of those newsgroups. That a few would complain is only to expected of newsgroups given to Israel, Iran, and religious discussion! Let me emphasize I have not sent any email from my Tripod account and don't even have an email account with Tripod that I can recall or ever use. Since I joined Tripod back in May of 1998, if you have now changed your terms of service to include any posts whatsoever on newsgroups, I would appreciate notification to that effect so that I might be aware of it and follow it. Again, I value my website being on Tripod and request that you reactivate my account and inform me as to what your policy is. Sincerely, Frederick Glaysher 668 Bolinger Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 248-651-3380 FG@hotmail.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Frederick Glaysher" Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 12:01 PM Subject: Re: Cancellation of your account (KMM5299871C0KM) Hello Frederick, Thank you for your concern but the account in question was found to be in violation of our Term of Service, specifically for the sending of unsolicited bulk emails that pointed to your Tripod page. Tripod does not condone nor will it subsidize such netiquette violations and removes such sites as we become aware of them. Consequently, this account will not be reinstated to our servers. Abuse Specialist Tripod.com - Part of the Lycos Network Original message follows: ------------------------- I ask you to seriously consider that the fundamentalists among my fellow Bahais are using Tripod to further their agenda. I must express surprise at your abrupt decision. Given the seriousness of your action, I believe I should at least be allowed to state that the charges you claim have been leveled against me are not true. I post and have posted only to newsgroups that are related to my interests in the censorship among my fellow Bahais: talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.misc (open to all faiths), soc.culture.iranian (Iran is where the Bahai Faith originated and many Bahais regularly post there), and soc.culture.israel (where we Bahais have our World Centre and many historic events took place). Please consider that each of these newsgroups has many extreme fundamentalists who not stop at ANYTHING to silence people with opinions other than their own. Their success in bringing down my site will only serve their purposes. Your charge of "spamming" is completely inaccurate and does not take into account the more than 10 years that Bahais have attempted to suppress all freedom of speech and conscience on and offline. While I've crossposted messages to the above 5 newsgroups that does not constitute spam and is nowhere near the 12 to 15 or more newsgroups that many people regularly post to. I'm concerned that Tripod is being deceived by a concerted effort of Bahais who are opposed not only to my own site but to anyone expressing opinions other than doctrinally acceptable views. As one example, I suggest you look at an article on the website of Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm If you take the time to read Professor Cole's article, or at least skim it, you should begin to realize there are many religious complexities of which you are not informed involved with my website. Bahais have on many occasions slandered people en masse in order to discredit them and seduce people into believing or acting in various ways as Professor Cole's article suggests. You might contact Professor Cole at jrcole@umich.edu for an independent opinion on this matter. I ask you to please reconsider your decision and reinstate my website or allow me to reupload it. Let me also say I started with Tripod when it was just beginning and have always appreciate its service and learnt a lot from it about building websites and so on. I have always been and endeavored to be a worthy member of the Tripod community and believe I still am. Thank you. I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible. Sincerely, Frederick Glaysher 668 Bolinger Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 248-651-3380 FG@hotmail.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 9:00 AM Subject: Cancellation of your account > Dear fglaysher, > > Tripod has received a variety of complaints regarding the promotion of your Tripod > page by means of sending unsolicited e-mail or posting inappropriate messages to newsgroups. > Known generally as spamming, these activites are costly and wasteful of Internet resources > while being in direct violation of the Terms of Service that you agreed to at the time of registration. Tripod > has therefore discontinued serving your content, and this notice should serve as cancellation of > your Tripod membership. > ---------- From: brad@oc.mv.com[SMTP:brad@oc.mv.com] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 6:55 PM To: MFNews@egroups.com Subject: [MFNews] Head of Millennium Forum to address Millennium Summit tomorrow -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> Find out the TRUTH about Anyone! Criminal records, unlisted phone numbers, FBI files and more! Grab your Instant Download Now: https://click.egroups.com/1/9017/17/_/_/_/968371002/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> NEWS FROM The Millennium Forum For more information, CONTACT bpokorny@bic.org or mngof@bic.org For Immediate Release Date: 7 September 2000 CO-CHAIR OF THE MILLENNIUM FORUM TO ADDRESS WORLD LEADERS AT THE MILLENNIUM SUMMIT TOMORROW UNITED NATIONS – Techeste Ahderom, the Co-Chair of the Millennium Forum, is scheduled to address the United Nations Millennium Summit on Friday, 8 September 2000. Mr. Ahderom is expected to tell world leaders gathered at the Summit about the wide ranging concerns of global civil society, focusing especially on the views developed at the Millennium Forum last May on the issues of peace, globalization, poverty eradication and UN reform. In his capacity as the Co-Chair of the Millennium Forum, Mr. Ahderom, led the Millennium Forum, which brought together some 1,350 representatives of non-governmental organizations (NGOs) at the United Nations last May to consult about humanity's future in anticipation of this week's Millennium Summit of world leaders. Mr. Ahderom is expected to ask Summit leaders to carefully review the Millennium Forum Declaration and Agenda for Action, a document that was drafted and adopted by NGOs and civil society organizations gathered at the Forum last May, who came from some 115 countries – including a large number from the developing world. "This document offers not only a bold vision for humanity's future, it outlines a series of concrete steps that the United Nations, governments, and members of civil society themselves can take to address the global problems facing humanity today," said Mr. Ahderom, explaining that it addresses key issues relating to peace and security, poverty eradication, human rights, sustainable development and the environment, and meeting the challenges of globalization. The Forum's Declaration condemns global poverty as a "violation of human rights," urges the immediate cancellation of Third World debt, calls for a "strengthened and democratized United Nations" with a reformed Security Council, invigorated through an enlarged membership, more democratic procedures, and eventual elimination of the veto. The Forum's Declaration states that while globalizations offers "significant opportunities for people to connect, share and learn from each other," in its currently unregulated form it increases "inequities between and within countries, undermines local traditions and cultures, and escalates disparities between rich and poor, thereby marginalizing large numbers of people in urban and rural areas." The Declaration urges governments to make serious "commitments to restructure the global financial architecture based on principles of equity, transparency, accountability, and democracy…," stating clearly that the United Nations should be the preeminent international organization, overseeing the World Bank, the IMF and the WTO. The speech will be webcast at the United Nations sometime late in the afternoon, Eastern Standard Time. It can be viewed at www.un.org, and follow the links to the "Millennium Summit." For more information about the Millennium Forum, visit https://www.millenniumforum.org To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: MFNews-unsubscribe@egroups.com ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 8:37 PM To: abuse@tripod.com Subject: Re: Cancellation of your account (KMM5301537C0KM) Tripod Abuse Specialist: I'm baffled by your ignoring the fact that I have never sent "unsolicited bulk email." If it was sent out with my name and email address, I'd very much like to see a sample of it since I'm essentially being framed by someone. I'd very much like to see the full header of such an email because it was not sent by me. If it appears to have come from my hotmail account, I would think hotmail too should be notified and ought to able to confirm that I NEVER sent out from my account a bulk mailing. Again, please investigate this cancellation of my account with hotmail and reinstate my Tripod website. Thank you, Frederick Glaysher 668 Bolinger Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 248-651-3380 FG@hotmail.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Frederick Glaysher" Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 2:48 PM Subject: Re: Cancellation of your account (KMM5301537C0KM) > Hello Frederick, > > Thank you for your concern but the account in question was found to be > in violation of our Term of Service, specifically for the sending of > unsolicited bulk emails that pointed to your Tripod page. > > Tripod does not condone nor will it subsidize such netiquette violations > and removes such sites as we become aware of them. Consequently, this > account will not be reinstated to our servers. > > > > > > Abuse Specialist > Tripod.com - Part of the Lycos Network > > > > > Original message follows: > ------------------------- > > Tripod Abuse Specialist: > > There appears to be a misunderstanding on the part > of Tripod. I have not sent any "unsolicited bulk emails." > I have posted to a very limited number of newsgroups (only 5) > messages with my signature file and specific documents > on my Tripod account which are relevant to many readers > of those newsgroups. That a few would complain is only > to expected of newsgroups given to Israel, Iran, and > religious discussion! > > Let me emphasize I have not sent any email from my > Tripod account and don't even have an email account with > Tripod that I can recall or ever use. > > Since I joined Tripod back in May of 1998, if you have now > changed your terms of service to include any posts whatsoever > on newsgroups, I would appreciate notification to that effect so > that I might be aware of it and follow it. > > Again, I value my website being on Tripod and request that you > reactivate my account and inform me as to what your policy is. > > Sincerely, > > Frederick Glaysher > 668 Bolinger > Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 > 248-651-3380 > FG@hotmail.com > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Frederick Glaysher" > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 12:01 PM > Subject: Re: Cancellation of your account (KMM5299871C0KM) > > > Hello Frederick, > > Thank you for your concern but the account in question was found to be > in violation of our Term of Service, specifically for the sending of > unsolicited bulk emails that pointed to your Tripod page. > > Tripod does not condone nor will it subsidize such netiquette violations > and removes such sites as we become aware of them. Consequently, this > account will not be reinstated to our servers. > > > > Abuse Specialist > Tripod.com - Part of the Lycos Network > > > > > Original message follows: > ------------------------- > > I ask you to seriously consider that the fundamentalists > among my fellow Bahais are using Tripod to further their agenda. > > I must express surprise at your abrupt decision. Given the > seriousness of your action, I believe I should at least be allowed > to state that the charges you claim have been leveled against me > are not true. > > I post and have posted only to newsgroups that are > related to my interests in the censorship among my > fellow Bahais: talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, > talk.religion.misc (open to all faiths), soc.culture.iranian > (Iran is where the Bahai Faith originated and many Bahais > regularly post there), and soc.culture.israel (where we > Bahais have our World Centre and many historic events > took place). Please consider that each of these newsgroups > has many extreme fundamentalists who not stop at ANYTHING > to silence people with opinions other than their own. Their > success in bringing down my site will only serve their purposes. > > Your charge of "spamming" is completely inaccurate and > does not take into account the more than 10 years that > Bahais have attempted to suppress all freedom of speech > and conscience on and offline. While I've crossposted > messages to the above 5 newsgroups that does not constitute > spam and is nowhere near the 12 to 15 or more newsgroups that > many people regularly post to. > > I'm concerned that Tripod is being deceived by a concerted effort > of Bahais who are opposed not only to my own site but to anyone > expressing opinions other than doctrinally acceptable views. As one > example, I suggest you look at an article on the website of Professor > Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, > The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > If you take the time to read Professor Cole's article, or at least > skim it, you should begin to realize there are many religious > complexities > of which you are not informed involved with my website. Bahais have > on many occasions slandered people en masse in order to discredit > them and seduce people into believing or acting in various ways as > Professor Cole's article suggests. You might contact Professor Cole > at jrcole@umich.edu for an independent opinion on this matter. > > I ask you to please reconsider your decision and reinstate > my website or allow me to reupload it. > > Let me also say I started with Tripod when it was just beginning > and have always appreciate its service and learnt a lot from it > about building websites and so on. I have always been and > endeavored to be a worthy member of the Tripod community and > believe I still am. > > Thank you. I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible. > > Sincerely, > > Frederick Glaysher > 668 Bolinger > Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 > 248-651-3380 > FG@hotmail.com > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 9:00 AM > Subject: Cancellation of your account > > > > Dear fglaysher, > > > > Tripod has received a variety of complaints regarding the promotion of > your Tripod > > page by means of sending unsolicited e-mail or posting inappropriate > messages to newsgroups. > > Known generally as spamming, these activites are costly and wasteful > of Internet resources > > while being in direct violation of the Terms of Service that you > agreed to at the time of > registration. Tripod > > has therefore discontinued serving your content, and this notice > should serve as cancellation of > > your Tripod membership. > > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 8:42 PM Subject: Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Please note the new address for The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience. https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm All pages may be reached by replacing https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/ with https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/ -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 9:02 PM Subject: "The Victory of World Governance" - Millennium Summit, Sept 7, 2000 "The Victory of World Governance": "...Though the hour might again become dark and threatening, though the odor of decay lingers in the air, though many setbacks have been and will surely be experienced, the means of escape stands almost fully formed at the door and merely awaits complete and unqualified implementation to accomplish what all high-minded human beings throughout history have longed and hoped for. While the possibility of crisis from unexpected quarters continues to loom large, threatening the 21st Century, while I cannot discern the exact steps, the direction of the international community is irrefutable, and there are clarifying tendencies that are struggling to grasp the opportunity of the hour and to establish what Tennyson called "the Federation of the world" on the quintessential values and traditions of civilization. Then shall the world become, as E. B. White once wrote, "A federation of free states, with its national units undisturbed and its peoples elevated to a new and greater sovereignty." Then shall the nations learn, as Jean Monnet wrote, "to live together under common rules and institutions freely arrived at." Then shall dawn that long awaited reconciliation of the tensions that first advanced themselves in the Renaissance and that have plagued civilization ever since. Then shall arise that glorious civilization animating the hopes of all peoples from the earliest days of recorded history." Full text at https://fglaysher.com/WorldGov.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/ ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 9:34 PM Subject: bahai -- Hypocrite to Address MILLENNIUM SUMMIT on 9-8-2000 - view it on the web! See the actual record of my fellow bahais on human rights at The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm It should now be clear to all on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai why Susan Maneck and other bahai fundamentalists have been vehemently attacking ProfessorJuan Cole and my website during the last week. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com (accredited participant at the Millennium Forum) ---- For Immediate Release Date: 7 September 2000 CO-CHAIR OF THE MILLENNIUM FORUM TO ADDRESS WORLD LEADERS AT THE MILLENNIUM SUMMIT TOMORROW UNITED NATIONS - Techeste Ahderom, the Co-Chair of the Millennium Forum, is scheduled to address the United Nations Millennium Summit on Friday, 8 September 2000. Mr. Ahderom is expected to tell world leaders gathered at the Summit about the wide ranging concerns of global civil society, focusing especially on the views developed at the Millennium Forum last May on the issues of peace, globalization, poverty eradication and UN reform. In his capacity as the Co-Chair of the Millennium Forum, Mr. Ahderom, led the Millennium Forum, which brought together some 1,350 representatives of non-governmental organizations (NGOs) at the United Nations last May to consult about humanity's future in anticipation of this week's Millennium Summit of world leaders. Mr. Ahderom is expected to ask Summit leaders to carefully review the Millennium Forum Declaration and Agenda for Action, a document that was drafted and adopted by NGOs and civil society organizations gathered at the Forum last May, who came from some 115 countries including a large number from the developing world. "This document offers not only a bold vision for humanity's future, it outlines a series of concrete steps that the United Nations, governments, and members of civil society themselves can take to address the global problems facing humanity today," said Mr. Ahderom, explaining that it addresses key issues relating to peace and security, poverty eradication, human rights, sustainable development and the environment, and meeting the challenges of globalization. The Forum's Declaration condemns global poverty as a "violation of human rights," urges the immediate cancellation of Third World debt, calls for a "strengthened and democratized United Nations" with a reformed Security Council, invigorated through an enlarged membership, more democratic procedures, and eventual elimination of the veto. The Forum's Declaration states that while globalizations offers "significant opportunities for people to connect, share and learn from each other," in its currently unregulated form it increases "inequities between and within countries, undermines local traditions and cultures, and escalates disparities between rich and poor, thereby marginalizing large numbers of people in urban and rural areas." The Declaration urges governments to make serious "commitments to restructure the global financial architecture based on principles of equity, transparency, accountability, and democracy.," stating clearly that the United Nations should be the preeminent international organization, overseeing the World Bank, the IMF and the WTO. The speech will be webcast at the United Nations sometime late in the afternoon, Eastern Standard Time. It can be viewed at www.un.org, and follow the links to the "Millennium Summit." [Exact link is probably the following one]: https://www.un.org/ga/webcast/indexe.htm For more information about the Millennium Forum, visit https://www.millenniumforum.org ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:f_glaysher@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 6:13 AM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Fwd: The Baha'i Faith >From: "David W. Lehning" >To: >Subject: The Baha'i Faith >Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 14:28:20 -0400 > > >Hello Patrick, > >I was looking at talk.religion.bahai and found your post. I then visited the >link that you had provided there. I am a former Baha'i who was more or less >driven out of the Faith by an increasingly authoritarian, manipulative, and >controlling admninistration. I am also gay, which makes the matter even >worse! It seems to me that these conditions have become worse since I have >left. I found my way to this news group after visiting a gay Baha'i's Web >site and then from a post in his message board. I am interested in spiritual >mysticism and the mystical aspects of sacred writings, but there was a time >quite a few years ago when I was even accused of being a Covenant Breaker >because of my "unauthorized interpretatation" of the Sacred Baha'i Writings. >I finally said enough, left the Faith, and really have no interest in >returning, but I had become curious about the status of gays in the Faith, >and, as I said, that led me here. It does seem that people in the Faith wear >many faces. They can turn their friendly "Nice loving Baha'i" face, then >later, turn a very angry, judgemental, authoritarian face. To me, the Baha'i >faith is no better than any of the other orgainized religions. They are just >as controling, and prejudiced as everyone else. If you are still active in >the faith, you are a very brave soul. I desire to remain a free spirit, >seeker and mystic, unfettered by doctrines and religious authorities. But >for you, keep up the fight. > >Kind Regards, >David W. Lehning ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 8:58 AM Subject: NEW ADDRESS - Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience Please note the new address for The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience. https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm If preferred, all pages may be reached by replacing existing links with https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/ with this stem: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/ -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 10:43 AM Subject: Maneck's Slandering of Prof. Juan Cole - Re: bahai -- Hypocrite to Address MILLENNIUM SUMMIT on 9-8-2000 - view it on the web! See the actual record of my fellow bahais on human rights at The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm It should now be clear to all on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai WHY Susan Maneck and other bahai fundamentalists have been vehemently attacking Professor Juan Cole and my website during the last week. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com (accredited participant at the Millennium Forum) ---- For Immediate Release Date: 7 September 2000 CO-CHAIR OF THE MILLENNIUM FORUM TO ADDRESS WORLD LEADERS AT THE MILLENNIUM SUMMIT TOMORROW UNITED NATIONS - Techeste Ahderom, the Co-Chair of the Millennium Forum, is scheduled to address the United Nations Millennium Summit on Friday, 8 September 2000. Mr. Ahderom is expected to tell world leaders gathered at the Summit about the wide ranging concerns of global civil society, focusing especially on the views developed at the Millennium Forum last May on the issues of peace, globalization, poverty eradication and UN reform. In his capacity as the Co-Chair of the Millennium Forum, Mr. Ahderom, led the Millennium Forum, which brought together some 1,350 representatives of non-governmental organizations (NGOs) at the United Nations last May to consult about humanity's future in anticipation of this week's Millennium Summit of world leaders. Mr. Ahderom is expected to ask Summit leaders to carefully review the Millennium Forum Declaration and Agenda for Action, a document that was drafted and adopted by NGOs and civil society organizations gathered at the Forum last May, who came from some 115 countries including a large number from the developing world. "This document offers not only a bold vision for humanity's future, it outlines a series of concrete steps that the United Nations, governments, and members of civil society themselves can take to address the global problems facing humanity today," said Mr. Ahderom, explaining that it addresses key issues relating to peace and security, poverty eradication, human rights, sustainable development and the environment, and meeting the challenges of globalization. The Forum's Declaration condemns global poverty as a "violation of human rights," urges the immediate cancellation of Third World debt, calls for a "strengthened and democratized United Nations" with a reformed Security Council, invigorated through an enlarged membership, more democratic procedures, and eventual elimination of the veto. The Forum's Declaration states that while globalizations offers "significant opportunities for people to connect, share and learn from each other," in its currently unregulated form it increases "inequities between and within countries, undermines local traditions and cultures, and escalates disparities between rich and poor, thereby marginalizing large numbers of people in urban and rural areas." The Declaration urges governments to make serious "commitments to restructure the global financial architecture based on principles of equity, transparency, accountability, and democracy.," stating clearly that the United Nations should be the preeminent international organization, overseeing the World Bank, the IMF and the WTO. The speech will be webcast at the United Nations sometime late in the afternoon, Eastern Standard Time. It can be viewed at www.un.org, and follow the links to the "Millennium Summit." [Exact link is probably the following one]: https://www.un.org/ga/webcast/indexe.htm For more information about the Millennium Forum, visit https://www.millenniumforum.org ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 12:55 PM To: Juan Cole Subject: Fw: Maneck's Slandering of Prof. Juan Cole - Re: bahai -- Hypocrite to Address MILLENNIUM SUMMIT on 9-8-2000 - view it on the web! fyi ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Henry" Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.israel,talk.religion.bahai,talk.religion.misc Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 9:40 AM Subject: Maneck's Slandering of Prof. Juan Cole - Re: bahai -- Hypocrite to Address MILLENNIUM SUMMIT on 9-8-2000 - view it on the web! > See the actual record of my fellow bahais on human rights > at The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > It should now be clear to all on talk.religion.bahai and > alt.religion.bahai WHY Susan Maneck and other bahai > fundamentalists have been vehemently attacking > Professor Juan Cole and my website during the last week. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > (accredited participant at the Millennium Forum) > > ---- > For Immediate Release > Date: 7 September 2000 > > > CO-CHAIR OF THE MILLENNIUM FORUM TO ADDRESS > WORLD LEADERS AT THE MILLENNIUM SUMMIT TOMORROW > > > UNITED NATIONS - Techeste Ahderom, the Co-Chair of the Millennium > Forum, is scheduled to address the United Nations Millennium Summit > on Friday, 8 September 2000. > > Mr. Ahderom is expected to tell world leaders gathered at the Summit > about the wide ranging concerns of global civil society, focusing > especially on the views developed at the Millennium Forum last May on > the issues of peace, globalization, poverty eradication and UN reform. > > In his capacity as the Co-Chair of the Millennium Forum, Mr. Ahderom, > led the Millennium Forum, which brought together some 1,350 > representatives of non-governmental organizations (NGOs) at the > United Nations last May to consult about humanity's future in > anticipation of this week's Millennium Summit of world leaders. > > Mr. Ahderom is expected to ask Summit leaders to carefully review the > Millennium Forum Declaration and Agenda for Action, a document that > was drafted and adopted by NGOs and civil society organizations > gathered at the Forum last May, who came from some 115 countries > including a large number from the developing world. > > "This document offers not only a bold vision for humanity's > future, it outlines a series of concrete steps that the United Nations, > governments, and members of civil society themselves can take to > address the global problems facing humanity today," said Mr. > Ahderom, explaining that it addresses key issues relating to peace > and security, poverty eradication, human rights, sustainable > development and the environment, and meeting the challenges of > globalization. > > The Forum's Declaration condemns global poverty as a > "violation of human rights," urges the immediate cancellation of > Third World debt, calls for a "strengthened and democratized United > Nations" with a reformed Security Council, invigorated through an > enlarged membership, more democratic procedures, and eventual > elimination of the veto. > > The Forum's Declaration states that while globalizations offers > "significant opportunities for people to connect, share and learn > from each other," in its currently unregulated form it increases > "inequities between and within countries, undermines local > traditions and cultures, and escalates disparities between rich and > poor, thereby marginalizing large numbers of people in urban and > rural areas." > > The Declaration urges governments to make serious "commitments to > restructure the global financial architecture based on principles of > equity, transparency, accountability, and democracy.," > stating clearly that the United Nations should be the preeminent > international organization, overseeing the World Bank, the IMF and > the WTO. > > The speech will be webcast at the United Nations sometime late in the > afternoon, Eastern Standard Time. It can be viewed at www.un.org, and > follow the links to the "Millennium Summit." [Exact link is probably the > following one]: https://www.un.org/ga/webcast/indexe.htm > > For more information about the Millennium Forum, visit > https://www.millenniumforum.org > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 3:10 PM Subject: bahai Hypocrite Soon to Address United Nations - Re: Maneck's Slandering of UM Prof. Juan Cole - Re: bahai -- Hypocrite to Address MILLENNIUM SUMMIT on 9-8-2000 - view it on the web! Witness the hypocrisy for yourself and then compare it to the actual record of bahai censorship and deception on The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: United Nations Millennium Summit Webcast: https://webcast.mediaondemand.com/united_nations/summit/live100mr_english.ram The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > See the actual record of my fellow bahais on human rights > at The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > It should now be clear to all on talk.religion.bahai and > alt.religion.bahai WHY Susan Maneck and other bahai > fundamentalists have been vehemently attacking > Professor Juan Cole and my website during the last week. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > (accredited participant at the Millennium Forum) > > ---- > For Immediate Release > Date: 7 September 2000 > > > CO-CHAIR OF THE MILLENNIUM FORUM TO ADDRESS > WORLD LEADERS AT THE MILLENNIUM SUMMIT TOMORROW > > > UNITED NATIONS - Techeste Ahderom, the Co-Chair of the Millennium > Forum, is scheduled to address the United Nations Millennium Summit > on Friday, 8 September 2000. > > Mr. Ahderom is expected to tell world leaders gathered at the Summit > about the wide ranging concerns of global civil society, focusing > especially on the views developed at the Millennium Forum last May on > the issues of peace, globalization, poverty eradication and UN reform. > > In his capacity as the Co-Chair of the Millennium Forum, Mr. Ahderom, > led the Millennium Forum, which brought together some 1,350 > representatives of non-governmental organizations (NGOs) at the > United Nations last May to consult about humanity's future in > anticipation of this week's Millennium Summit of world leaders. > > Mr. Ahderom is expected to ask Summit leaders to carefully review the > Millennium Forum Declaration and Agenda for Action, a document that > was drafted and adopted by NGOs and civil society organizations > gathered at the Forum last May, who came from some 115 countries > including a large number from the developing world. > > "This document offers not only a bold vision for humanity's > future, it outlines a series of concrete steps that the United Nations, > governments, and members of civil society themselves can take to > address the global problems facing humanity today," said Mr. > Ahderom, explaining that it addresses key issues relating to peace > and security, poverty eradication, human rights, sustainable > development and the environment, and meeting the challenges of > globalization. > > The Forum's Declaration condemns global poverty as a > "violation of human rights," urges the immediate cancellation of > Third World debt, calls for a "strengthened and democratized United > Nations" with a reformed Security Council, invigorated through an > enlarged membership, more democratic procedures, and eventual > elimination of the veto. > > The Forum's Declaration states that while globalizations offers > "significant opportunities for people to connect, share and learn > from each other," in its currently unregulated form it increases > "inequities between and within countries, undermines local > traditions and cultures, and escalates disparities between rich and > poor, thereby marginalizing large numbers of people in urban and > rural areas." > > The Declaration urges governments to make serious "commitments to > restructure the global financial architecture based on principles of > equity, transparency, accountability, and democracy.," > stating clearly that the United Nations should be the preeminent > international organization, overseeing the World Bank, the IMF and > the WTO. > > The speech will be webcast at the United Nations sometime late in the > afternoon, Eastern Standard Time. It can be viewed at www.un.org, and > follow the links to the "Millennium Summit." [Exact link is probably the > following one]: https://www.un.org/ga/webcast/indexe.htm > > For more information about the Millennium Forum, visit > https://www.millenniumforum.org > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: brad@oc.mv.com[SMTP:brad@oc.mv.com] Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 7:56 AM To: MFDiscuss@egroups.com Subject: [MFDiscuss] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium Summit -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates of 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Ongoing APR* and no annual fee! Apply NOW! https://click.egroups.com/1/9146/6/_/_/_/968676985/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> THE MILLENNIUM SUMMIT (6-8 September 2000) Afternoon Plenary -- Friday, 8 September 2000 Statenet of Techeste Ahderom Co-Chair, The Millennium Forum Madam and Mr. Co-Chairs, Distinguished Heads of State and Government, Mr. Secretary-General, Excellencies, Last May, representatives of civil society and non-governmental organizations from all over the world gathered in this great hall to consult about humanity's common future and, particularly, about the role of the United Nations in the 21st Century. The meeting was called the Millennium Forum, and, in light of the wide ranging concerns of its participants, the geographic reach they embodied -- including broad representation from developing countries - - and the depth and breath of the organizations they represented, it was one of the most diverse -- and significant -- gatherings of civil society organizations ever held. The Forum was significant for its attempt to accelerate the process among NGOs of networking and coalition building across issue areas that has proved to be such a powerful force for change and social action in today's world. The issues we considered included how to establish a just and lasting peace; how to eradicate poverty; how to set humanity on a path of sustainable development while protecting our shared environment; how to see that human rights everywhere are upheld -- at all times, by all nations; and how to face up to the urgent challenges of globalization. In the end, despite our great diversity, we successfully agreed on a powerfully worded "Declaration and Agenda for Action." It offers a bold vision for humanity's future and outlines a series of concrete steps that the United Nations, governments, and members of civil society themselves can take to address the global problems facing humanity today. After hearing your speeches here over the last three days, I must say that our vision and plan of action are consonant with much of what has been said here. I am personally heartened by this and feel that this historic Summit may well be remembered as having opened the door to a long-awaited era of peace, justice and prosperity for all humanity. This new era will, of course, require concrete deeds and not just words. We in civil society stand ready to work with you and your governments, side by side, in a strong new partnership to create this new world. At the same time, civil society also stands ready to hold you to your commitments if you do not deliver on your words. Throughout history, from the abolition of slavery to the recognition of the equality of women and men, most great social movements have begun not with governments but with ordinary people. Even the idea of creating an international organization to end war and establish a permanent peace originated with civil society. Before the outbreak of the First World War, the leaders of a number of international NGOs argued for the establishment of a "Commonwealth of Nations" or "League of Nations" in which all states would band together in collective security. These same organizations actively supported the work of the League of Nations in the late 1920's. In 1945, civil society again played an important role in shaping many of the key articles found in the Charter of the United Nations, especially in the area of human rights. More recently, NGOs have played a leading role in shaping and supporting an International Criminal Court, in the movement for debt cancellation, and in the International Campaign to Ban Landmines. Likewise, NGOs have led in creating such partnerships with the UN and governments as with the NGO Steering Committee for the Commission on Sustainable Development. On a number of occasions, Secretary General Kofi Annan has said that civil society participation in and partnership with the United Nations is not an "option," but a "necessity." We appreciate his efforts to facilitate effective partnership with civil society at the United Nations. We thank him especially for opening the UN to the Millennium Forum last May. As many of you know, the idea for our Forum essentially originated with Mr. Annan some three years ago when he called for a "companion People's Assembly" to this Summit. And we thank Mr. Annan for making the Millennium Forum Declaration available to this Summit as a UN document. The Millennium Forum itself grew out of long-established NGO committees and networks. Planning began with the Conference on Non- Governmental Organizations (CONGO), and included the UN DPI/NGO Executive Committee. We sought to build upon an impressive series of global NGO gatherings held last year, such as the Hague Appeal for Peace, the Seoul International Conference of NGOs, World Civil Society Conference, and the Young People's Millennium Assembly, as well as all of the great global NGO forums held in parallel with the major United Nations conferences of the last decade, including Earth Summit, the Beijing Women's Conference, and the Social Summit, among others. We ask that you review carefully our Millennium Forum Declaration. I think you'll find that, for the most part, we are simply calling on governments to live up to the commitments and the principles that they agreed to in the great global conferences of the 1990s. We are also seeking increased NGO access to the UN General Assembly and its main committees. Allow me to give you a few highlights of what the Forum called for in its Declaration. The Forum's participants believe that, when a billion people go to bed hungry, it is a gross violation of human rights. The Declaration calls for immediate debt cancellation. It also calls for a "Global Poverty Eradication Fund," aimed at offering the poor access to credit. On globalization, the Forum took the view that, while it offers "significant opportunities for people to connect, share and learn from each other," in its currently unregulated form it increases "inequities between and within countries, undermines local traditions and cultures, and escalates disparities between rich and poor, thereby marginalizing large numbers of people in urban and rural areas." The Declaration urges governments to make serious "commitments to restructure the global financial architecture based on principles of equity, transparency, accountability, and democracy…," stating clearly that the United Nations should be the preeminent international organization overseeing the World Bank, the IMF and the WTO. The Declaration also calls for a greatly strengthened and democratized United Nations, the most important global institution in the world today -- and the only one currently capable of providing the international framework and coordination needed to address the critical challenges ahead. Specifically, the Forum called for a strengthened peacekeeping regime, with the establishment of permanent police and peacekeeping forces. It also calls for a reformed Security Council, invigorated through an enlarged membership, more democratic procedures, and eventual elimination of the veto. It also urges the formulation of a draft proposal for global disarmament, to be discussed in a Special Session of the General Assembly. In this day of global interdependence, a much strengthened United Nations is our best protection against global calamity, be it economic, environmental, the spread of a new epidemic or a major new conflict. To conclude, the Millennium Forum Declaration seeks to articulate the hopes and aspirations of the peoples of the world. As its opening paragraphs state: "Our vision is of a world that is human-centered and genuinely democratic, where all human beings are full participants and determine their own destinies. In our vision we are one human family, in all our diversity, living on one common homeland and sharing a just, sustainable and peaceful world, guided by universal principles of democracy, equality, inclusion, voluntarism, non-discrimination and participation by all persons…." Thank you for your attention. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: MFDiscuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 7:04 AM Subject: bahai - MT CARMEL - Nine Fascists Attack US Academics This is from the same uhj that pretends at the United Nations to care so much about human rights: ------ 3 August 1999 From: Department of the Secretariat Baha'i World Center Dear Baha'i Friend, Clearly, no one would dispute the right of Dr. Cole to write and publish whatever work a publisher is prepared to handle. Nor has anyone questioned the right of a Baha'i who is interested in such a book to purchase it. To suggest that the House of Justice is saying otherwise would be to seriously misconstrue the nature of its concern . . . As a participant in various Internet discussion groups over the past five years, and particularly in the last year or two, you cannot but be aware from these exchanges that Dr. Cole has embarked on a deliberate assault against the Baha'i Cause, in which he has not hesitated to attack its institutions, to misrepresent its fundamental teachings, and to abuse the trust of Baha'is who had been led to believe that they were engaged with him in a detached and scholarly search for the truth. These same Internet exchanges exposed you, like other participants, to a flood of calumny and invective against a great many of your fellow believers, on the part of Dr. Cole, that is scarcely credible in rational discourse. Had such a book as Modernity and the Millennium been written by a disinterested non-Baha'i scholar, its misconception of the nature of Baha'u'llah's Mission and its other shortcomings would have represented no more than understandable weaknesses of an honest attempt to explore a religious phenomenon as yet little understood in the West. Indeed, in this context, such an attempt to make the Baha'i Faith comprehensible to the Western academic mind, however inadequate it might appear to knowledgeable Baha'i scholars, would surely have earned its author a measure of genuine Baha'i appreciation for the writing and research skills deployed in devising it. As you -- like other participants in certain Internet discussion groups -- are well aware, however, the book's author is not a disinterested scholar. Rather, he is a deeply embittered individual who, as his book was in preparation, had just denounced in the most intemperate language an apparent twenty-year allegiance to Baha'u'llah, in the wake of a failed attempt on his part to impose his private ideological agenda on the Baha'i community's study of Baha'u'llah's Message. Modernity and the Millennium represents an effort to provide the current stage of this long-running scheme with the underpinnings of scholarly rationalization. What is this rationalization? Although distorted by its evasion of Baha'i Texts that contradict its main assertions, and blurred by reliance on speculations peculiar to its author's purpose, the thesis appears to run somewhat as follows: Baha'u'llah's work and Writings represent essentially one of several efforts by Middle East thinkers to work out a "response" to the challenges posed by European modernity in the form of rationalism, revolution, nationalism, economic upheaval, feminism and other contemporary developments. Although Oriental in origin, this particular "response", in contrast to various others, was unusually "progressive", "liberal", "idealistic", even "radical". Because it "grew up" in a congenial modernist era, its Author was able gradually to adjust and revise the ideas with which He had been "grappling", through benefiting (in a manner generally insinuated rather than explicitly stated) from successive interactions with other thinkers and movements. By 1862, apparently in order to deal with the problem of religious exclusivity in the Muslim world, and in response to some form of "private mystical experience", He "decided to make a prophetic claim of his own" . . . The Covenant, the distinguishing feature of Baha'u'llah's Revelation, has been made the central target of this effort (a maneuver that Dr. Cole's book is at particular pains to shore up). Although forced to acknowledge the appointments of `Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian as Interpreters of Baha'u'llah's Message, every effort has been made to call such authoritative interpretation into question wherever it presents a problem for the notions being promoted. Similarly, although ostensibly acknowledging that the Universal House of Justice is Head of the Baha'i Faith today, this opposition has tried by every means possible to undermine the broad authority conferred in Baha'u'llah's own words and emphasized in the Master's Will and Testament. (In Dr. Cole's book, this agenda makes its appearance in the conclusion: namely, that the Faith founded by Baha'u'llah has failed in its mission because, like "the Khomeinist state in Iran", it has been somehow captured by "fundamentalists", by which term Dr. Cole has repeatedly characterized the members of the Universal House of Justice.) . . . With loving Baha'i greetings, Department of the Secretariat ----- See Professor Juan Cole's response at https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm Reviews of his book are available on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0231110812/o/qid=924015204/sr=2-1/002 -1823748- Further documentation of the uhj coercing academics and suppressing free speech and conscience may be found on my bahai website. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: abuse@tripod.com[SMTP:abuse@tripod.com] Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 12:19 PM To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Re: Cancellation of your account (KMM5335766C0KM) Hello Frederick, Posting to newsgroups is also considered a violation. Your account will not be reinstated. Abuse Specialist Tripod.com - Part of the Lycos Network Original message follows: ------------------------- Tripod Abuse Specialist: I'm baffled by your ignoring the fact that I have never sent "unsolicited bulk email." If it was sent out with my name and email address, I'd very much like to see a sample of it since I'm essentially being framed by someone. I'd very much like to see the full header of such an email because it was not sent by me. If it appears to have come from my hotmail account, I would think hotmail too should be notified and ought to able to confirm that I NEVER sent out from my account a bulk mailing. Again, please investigate this cancellation of my account with hotmail and reinstate my Tripod website. Thank you, Frederick Glaysher 668 Bolinger Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 248-651-3380 FG@hotmail.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Frederick Glaysher" Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 2:48 PM Subject: Re: Cancellation of your account (KMM5301537C0KM) > Hello Frederick, > > Thank you for your concern but the account in question was found to be > in violation of our Term of Service, specifically for the sending of > unsolicited bulk emails that pointed to your Tripod page. > > Tripod does not condone nor will it subsidize such netiquette violations > and removes such sites as we become aware of them. Consequently, this > account will not be reinstated to our servers. > > > > > > Abuse Specialist > Tripod.com - Part of the Lycos Network > > > > > Original message follows: > ------------------------- > > Tripod Abuse Specialist: > > There appears to be a misunderstanding on the part > of Tripod. I have not sent any "unsolicited bulk emails." > I have posted to a very limited number of newsgroups (only 5) > messages with my signature file and specific documents > on my Tripod account which are relevant to many readers > of those newsgroups. That a few would complain is only > to expected of newsgroups given to Israel, Iran, and > religious discussion! > > Let me emphasize I have not sent any email from my > Tripod account and don't even have an email account with > Tripod that I can recall or ever use. > > Since I joined Tripod back in May of 1998, if you have now > changed your terms of service to include any posts whatsoever > on newsgroups, I would appreciate notification to that effect so > that I might be aware of it and follow it. > > Again, I value my website being on Tripod and request that you > reactivate my account and inform me as to what your policy is. > > Sincerely, > > Frederick Glaysher > 668 Bolinger > Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 > 248-651-3380 > FG@hotmail.com > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Frederick Glaysher" > Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 12:01 PM > Subject: Re: Cancellation of your account (KMM5299871C0KM) > > > Hello Frederick, > > Thank you for your concern but the account in question was found to be > in violation of our Term of Service, specifically for the sending of > unsolicited bulk emails that pointed to your Tripod page. > > Tripod does not condone nor will it subsidize such netiquette violations > and removes such sites as we become aware of them. Consequently, this > account will not be reinstated to our servers. > > > > Abuse Specialist > Tripod.com - Part of the Lycos Network > > > > > Original message follows: > ------------------------- > > I ask you to seriously consider that the fundamentalists > among my fellow Bahais are using Tripod to further their agenda. > > I must express surprise at your abrupt decision. Given the > seriousness of your action, I believe I should at least be allowed > to state that the charges you claim have been leveled against me > are not true. > > I post and have posted only to newsgroups that are > related to my interests in the censorship among my > fellow Bahais: talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, > talk.religion.misc (open to all faiths), soc.culture.iranian > (Iran is where the Bahai Faith originated and many Bahais > regularly post there), and soc.culture.israel (where we > Bahais have our World Centre and many historic events > took place). Please consider that each of these newsgroups > has many extreme fundamentalists who not stop at ANYTHING > to silence people with opinions other than their own. Their > success in bringing down my site will only serve their purposes. > > Your charge of "spamming" is completely inaccurate and > does not take into account the more than 10 years that > Bahais have attempted to suppress all freedom of speech > and conscience on and offline. While I've crossposted > messages to the above 5 newsgroups that does not constitute > spam and is nowhere near the 12 to 15 or more newsgroups that > many people regularly post to. > > I'm concerned that Tripod is being deceived by a concerted effort > of Bahais who are opposed not only to my own site but to anyone > expressing opinions other than doctrinally acceptable views. As one > example, I suggest you look at an article on the website of Professor > Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, > The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > If you take the time to read Professor Cole's article, or at least > skim it, you should begin to realize there are many religious > complexities > of which you are not informed involved with my website. Bahais have > on many occasions slandered people en masse in order to discredit > them and seduce people into believing or acting in various ways as > Professor Cole's article suggests. You might contact Professor Cole > at jrcole@umich.edu for an independent opinion on this matter. > > I ask you to please reconsider your decision and reinstate > my website or allow me to reupload it. > > Let me also say I started with Tripod when it was just beginning > and have always appreciate its service and learnt a lot from it > about building websites and so on. I have always been and > endeavored to be a worthy member of the Tripod community and > believe I still am. > > Thank you. I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible. > > Sincerely, > > Frederick Glaysher > 668 Bolinger > Rochester Hills, Michigan 48307 > 248-651-3380 > FG@hotmail.com > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 9:00 AM > Subject: Cancellation of your account > > > > Dear fglaysher, > > > > Tripod has received a variety of complaints regarding the promotion of > your Tripod > > page by means of sending unsolicited e-mail or posting inappropriate > messages to newsgroups. > > Known generally as spamming, these activites are costly and wasteful > of Internet resources > > while being in direct violation of the Terms of Service that you > agreed to at the time of > registration. Tripod > > has therefore discontinued serving your content, and this notice > should serve as cancellation of > > your Tripod membership. > > > > > ---------- From: [SMTP:earthrisepress@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 7:38 AM To: brad@oc.mv.com Cc: jrcole@umich.edu Subject: Re: [MFNews] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium Summit Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, observes in the conclusion of his book Modernity and the Millennium (Columbia University Press, 1998): "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriarchy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed" (196). Cole himself and many others have suffered at the hands of Baha'i fundamentalists who hide behind putatively liberal activities, such as at the United Nations: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement" Cole (201). These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai on Usenet for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. Both my and Cole's Bahai websites provide essential documentation along these lines. It should be noted that the Universal House of Justice has actively worked through the BCCA (Bahai Computer and Communications Association) to suppress all links to websites with other than its own "comprehensive" point of view on such major portals as Yahoo.com, Excite.com, and other search engines. The UHJ has gone even further by advising Bahais to remove any link whatsoever to Professor Cole's website. See his comments along these lines: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm And his article The Baha’i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. I find it distressing that this forum is being used for such purposes with an uninformed audience. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm >From: brad@oc.mv.com >To: MFNews@egroups.com >Subject: [MFNews] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium Summit >Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:55:09 -0000 > >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> >Nothing makes you feel like a new car >So treat yourself the easy way >Click below >https://click.egroups.com/1/8419/17/_/_/_/968677086/ >---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> > >It has been requested that we post the full statement of Millennium >Forum Co-Chair Techeste Ahderom to this group. It follows: > >THE MILLENNIUM SUMMIT > >8 September 2000 > > >Afternoon Plenary -- Friday, 8 September 2000 > >Statement of Techeste Ahderom >Co-Chair, The Millennium Forum > > > >Madam and Mr. Co-Chairs, Distinguished Heads of State and Government, >Mr. Secretary-General, Excellencies, > > >Last May, representatives of civil society and non-governmental >organizations from all over the world gathered in this great hall to >consult about humanity's common future and, particularly, about >the >role of the United Nations in the 21st Century. > >The meeting was called the Millennium Forum, and, in light of the >wide ranging concerns of its participants, the geographic reach they >embodied -- including broad representation from developing countries - >- and the depth and breath of the organizations they represented, it >was one of the most diverse -- and significant -- gatherings of civil >society organizations ever held. > >The Forum was significant for its attempt to accelerate the process >among NGOs of networking and coalition building across issue areas >that has proved to be such a powerful force for change and social >action in today's world. The issues we considered included how to >establish a just and lasting peace; how to eradicate poverty; how to >set humanity on a path of sustainable development while protecting >our shared environment; how to see that human rights everywhere are >upheld -- at all times, by all nations; and how to face up to the >urgent challenges of globalization. > >In the end, despite our great diversity, we successfully agreed on a >powerfully worded "Declaration and Agenda for Action." It offers >a >bold vision for humanity's future and outlines a series of concrete >steps that the United Nations, governments, and members of civil >society themselves can take to address the global problems facing >humanity today. > >After hearing your speeches here over the last three days, I must say >that our vision and plan of action are consonant with much of what >has been said here. > >I am personally heartened by this and feel that this historic Summit >may well be remembered as having opened the door to a long-awaited >era of peace, justice and prosperity for all humanity. This new era >will, of course, require concrete deeds and not just words. > >We in civil society stand ready to work with you and your >governments, side by side, in a strong new partnership to create this >new world. At the same time, civil society also stands ready to hold >you to your commitments if you do not deliver on your words. > >Throughout history, from the abolition of slavery to the recognition >of the equality of women and men, most great social movements have >begun not with governments but with ordinary people. > >Even the idea of creating an international organization to end war >and establish a permanent peace originated with civil society. Before >the outbreak of the First World War, the leaders of a number of >international NGOs argued for the establishment of a "Commonwealth of >Nations" or "League of Nations" in which all states would band >together in collective security. These same organizations actively >supported the work of the League of Nations in the late 1920's. > >In 1945, civil society again played an important role in shaping many >of the key articles found in the Charter of the United Nations, >especially in the area of human rights. > >More recently, NGOs have played a leading role in shaping and >supporting an International Criminal Court, in the movement for debt >cancellation, and in the International Campaign to Ban Landmines. >Likewise, NGOs have led in creating such partnerships with the UN and >governments as with the NGO Steering Committee for the Commission on >Sustainable Development. > >On a number of occasions, Secretary General Kofi Annan has said that >civil society participation in and partnership with the United >Nations is not an "option," but a "necessity." > >We appreciate his efforts to facilitate effective partnership with >civil society at the United Nations. We thank him especially for >opening the UN to the Millennium Forum last May. As many of you know, >the idea for our Forum essentially originated with Mr. Annan some >three years ago when he called for a "companion People's Assembly" to >this Summit. And we thank Mr. Annan for making the Millennium Forum >Declaration available to this Summit as a UN document. > >The Millennium Forum itself grew out of long-established NGO >committees and networks. Planning began with the Conference on Non- >Governmental Organizations (CONGO), and included the UN DPI/NGO >Executive Committee. We sought to build upon an impressive series of >global NGO gatherings held last year, such as the Hague Appeal for >Peace, the Seoul International Conference of NGOs, World Civil >Society Conference, and the Young People's Millennium Assembly, >as >well as all of the great global NGO forums held in parallel with the >major United Nations conferences of the last decade, including Earth >Summit, the Beijing Women's Conference, and the Social Summit, among >others. > >We ask that you review carefully our Millennium Forum Declaration. I >think you'll find that, for the most part, we are simply calling on >governments to live up to the commitments and the principles that >they agreed to in the great global conferences of the 1990s. We are >also seeking increased NGO access to the UN General Assembly and its >main committees. > >Allow me to give you a few highlights of what the Forum called for in >its Declaration. > >The Forum's participants believe that, when a billion people go >to >bed hungry, it is a gross violation of human rights. The Declaration >calls for immediate debt cancellation. It also calls for a >"Global >Poverty Eradication Fund," aimed at offering the poor access to >credit. > >On globalization, the Forum took the view that, while it >offers "significant opportunities for people to connect, share >and >learn from each other," in its currently unregulated form it >increases "inequities between and within countries, undermines >local >traditions and cultures, and escalates disparities between rich and >poor, thereby marginalizing large numbers of people in urban and >rural areas." > >The Declaration urges governments to make serious "commitments to >restructure the global financial architecture based on principles of >equity, transparency, accountability, and democracy…," >stating >clearly that the United Nations should be the preeminent >international organization overseeing the World Bank, the IMF and the >WTO. > >The Declaration also calls for a greatly strengthened and >democratized United Nations, the most important global institution in >the world today -- and the only one currently capable of providing >the international framework and coordination needed to address the >critical challenges ahead. > >Specifically, the Forum called for a strengthened peacekeeping >regime, with the establishment of permanent police and peacekeeping >forces. It also calls for a reformed Security Council, invigorated >through an enlarged membership, more democratic procedures, and >eventual elimination of the veto. It also urges the formulation of a >draft proposal for global disarmament, to be discussed in a Special >Session of the General Assembly. > >In this day of global interdependence, a much strengthened United >Nations is our best protection against global calamity, be it >economic, environmental, the spread of a new epidemic or a major new >conflict. > >To conclude, the Millennium Forum Declaration seeks to articulate the >hopes and aspirations of the peoples of the world. As its opening >paragraphs state: > >"Our vision is of a world that is human-centered and genuinely >democratic, where all human beings are full participants and >determine their own destinies. In our vision we are one human family, >in all our diversity, living on one common homeland and sharing a >just, sustainable and peaceful world, guided by universal principles >of democracy, equality, inclusion, voluntarism, non-discrimination >and participation by all persons…." > >Thank you for your attention. > > > > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >MFNews-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > ---------- From: earthrisepress@hotmail.com[SMTP:earthrisepress@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 7:38 AM To: brad@oc.mv.com Cc: jrcole@umich.edu Subject: Re: [MFNews] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium Summit Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, observes in the conclusion of his book Modernity and the Millennium (Columbia University Press, 1998): "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriarchy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed" (196). Cole himself and many others have suffered at the hands of Baha'i fundamentalists who hide behind putatively liberal activities, such as at the United Nations: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement" Cole (201). These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai on Usenet for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. Both my and Cole's Bahai websites provide essential documentation along these lines. It should be noted that the Universal House of Justice has actively worked through the BCCA (Bahai Computer and Communications Association) to suppress all links to websites with other than its own "comprehensive" point of view on such major portals as Yahoo.com, Excite.com, and other search engines. The UHJ has gone even further by advising Bahais to remove any link whatsoever to Professor Cole's website. See his comments along these lines: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm And his article The Baha’i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. I find it distressing that this forum is being used for such purposes with an uninformed audience. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm >From: brad@oc.mv.com >To: MFNews@egroups.com >Subject: [MFNews] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium Summit >Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:55:09 -0000 > >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> >Nothing makes you feel like a new car >So treat yourself the easy way >Click below >https://click.egroups.com/1/8419/17/_/_/_/968677086/ >---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> > >It has been requested that we post the full statement of Millennium >Forum Co-Chair Techeste Ahderom to this group. It follows: > >THE MILLENNIUM SUMMIT > >8 September 2000 > > >Afternoon Plenary -- Friday, 8 September 2000 > >Statement of Techeste Ahderom >Co-Chair, The Millennium Forum > > > >Madam and Mr. Co-Chairs, Distinguished Heads of State and Government, >Mr. Secretary-General, Excellencies, > > >Last May, representatives of civil society and non-governmental >organizations from all over the world gathered in this great hall to >consult about humanity's common future and, particularly, about >the >role of the United Nations in the 21st Century. > >The meeting was called the Millennium Forum, and, in light of the >wide ranging concerns of its participants, the geographic reach they >embodied -- including broad representation from developing countries - >- and the depth and breath of the organizations they represented, it >was one of the most diverse -- and significant -- gatherings of civil >society organizations ever held. > >The Forum was significant for its attempt to accelerate the process >among NGOs of networking and coalition building across issue areas >that has proved to be such a powerful force for change and social >action in today's world. The issues we considered included how to >establish a just and lasting peace; how to eradicate poverty; how to >set humanity on a path of sustainable development while protecting >our shared environment; how to see that human rights everywhere are >upheld -- at all times, by all nations; and how to face up to the >urgent challenges of globalization. > >In the end, despite our great diversity, we successfully agreed on a >powerfully worded "Declaration and Agenda for Action." It offers >a >bold vision for humanity's future and outlines a series of concrete >steps that the United Nations, governments, and members of civil >society themselves can take to address the global problems facing >humanity today. > >After hearing your speeches here over the last three days, I must say >that our vision and plan of action are consonant with much of what >has been said here. > >I am personally heartened by this and feel that this historic Summit >may well be remembered as having opened the door to a long-awaited >era of peace, justice and prosperity for all humanity. This new era >will, of course, require concrete deeds and not just words. > >We in civil society stand ready to work with you and your >governments, side by side, in a strong new partnership to create this >new world. At the same time, civil society also stands ready to hold >you to your commitments if you do not deliver on your words. > >Throughout history, from the abolition of slavery to the recognition >of the equality of women and men, most great social movements have >begun not with governments but with ordinary people. > >Even the idea of creating an international organization to end war >and establish a permanent peace originated with civil society. Before >the outbreak of the First World War, the leaders of a number of >international NGOs argued for the establishment of a "Commonwealth of >Nations" or "League of Nations" in which all states would band >together in collective security. These same organizations actively >supported the work of the League of Nations in the late 1920's. > >In 1945, civil society again played an important role in shaping many >of the key articles found in the Charter of the United Nations, >especially in the area of human rights. > >More recently, NGOs have played a leading role in shaping and >supporting an International Criminal Court, in the movement for debt >cancellation, and in the International Campaign to Ban Landmines. >Likewise, NGOs have led in creating such partnerships with the UN and >governments as with the NGO Steering Committee for the Commission on >Sustainable Development. > >On a number of occasions, Secretary General Kofi Annan has said that >civil society participation in and partnership with the United >Nations is not an "option," but a "necessity." > >We appreciate his efforts to facilitate effective partnership with >civil society at the United Nations. We thank him especially for >opening the UN to the Millennium Forum last May. As many of you know, >the idea for our Forum essentially originated with Mr. Annan some >three years ago when he called for a "companion People's Assembly" to >this Summit. And we thank Mr. Annan for making the Millennium Forum >Declaration available to this Summit as a UN document. > >The Millennium Forum itself grew out of long-established NGO >committees and networks. Planning began with the Conference on Non- >Governmental Organizations (CONGO), and included the UN DPI/NGO >Executive Committee. We sought to build upon an impressive series of >global NGO gatherings held last year, such as the Hague Appeal for >Peace, the Seoul International Conference of NGOs, World Civil >Society Conference, and the Young People's Millennium Assembly, >as >well as all of the great global NGO forums held in parallel with the >major United Nations conferences of the last decade, including Earth >Summit, the Beijing Women's Conference, and the Social Summit, among >others. > >We ask that you review carefully our Millennium Forum Declaration. I >think you'll find that, for the most part, we are simply calling on >governments to live up to the commitments and the principles that >they agreed to in the great global conferences of the 1990s. We are >also seeking increased NGO access to the UN General Assembly and its >main committees. > >Allow me to give you a few highlights of what the Forum called for in >its Declaration. > >The Forum's participants believe that, when a billion people go >to >bed hungry, it is a gross violation of human rights. The Declaration >calls for immediate debt cancellation. It also calls for a >"Global >Poverty Eradication Fund," aimed at offering the poor access to >credit. > >On globalization, the Forum took the view that, while it >offers "significant opportunities for people to connect, share >and >learn from each other," in its currently unregulated form it >increases "inequities between and within countries, undermines >local >traditions and cultures, and escalates disparities between rich and >poor, thereby marginalizing large numbers of people in urban and >rural areas." > >The Declaration urges governments to make serious "commitments to >restructure the global financial architecture based on principles of >equity, transparency, accountability, and democracy…," >stating >clearly that the United Nations should be the preeminent >international organization overseeing the World Bank, the IMF and the >WTO. > >The Declaration also calls for a greatly strengthened and >democratized United Nations, the most important global institution in >the world today -- and the only one currently capable of providing >the international framework and coordination needed to address the >critical challenges ahead. > >Specifically, the Forum called for a strengthened peacekeeping >regime, with the establishment of permanent police and peacekeeping >forces. It also calls for a reformed Security Council, invigorated >through an enlarged membership, more democratic procedures, and >eventual elimination of the veto. It also urges the formulation of a >draft proposal for global disarmament, to be discussed in a Special >Session of the General Assembly. > >In this day of global interdependence, a much strengthened United >Nations is our best protection against global calamity, be it >economic, environmental, the spread of a new epidemic or a major new >conflict. > >To conclude, the Millennium Forum Declaration seeks to articulate the >hopes and aspirations of the peoples of the world. As its opening >paragraphs state: > >"Our vision is of a world that is human-centered and genuinely >democratic, where all human beings are full participants and >determine their own destinies. In our vision we are one human family, >in all our diversity, living on one common homeland and sharing a >just, sustainable and peaceful world, guided by universal principles >of democracy, equality, inclusion, voluntarism, non-discrimination >and participation by all persons…." > >Thank you for your attention. > > > > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >MFNews-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > ---------- From: [SMTP:earthrisepress@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 6:21 PM To: MFDiscuss@egroups.com Subject: Re: [MFDiscuss] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium Summit -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> eLerts It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free! https://click.egroups.com/1/9068/6/_/_/_/968797072/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, observes in the conclusion of his book Modernity and the Millennium (Columbia University Press, 1998): "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriarchy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed" (196). Cole himself and many others have suffered at the hands of Baha'i fundamentalists who hide behind putatively liberal activities, such as at the United Nations: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement" Cole (201). These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai on Usenet for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. Both my and Cole's Bahai websites provide essential documentation along these lines. It should be noted that the Universal House of Justice has actively worked through the BCCA (Bahai Computer and Communications Association) to suppress all links to websites with other than its own "comprehensive" point of view on such major portals as Yahoo.com, Excite.com, and other search engines. The UHJ has gone even further by advising Bahais to remove any link whatsoever to Professor Cole's website. See his comments along these lines: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm And his article The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. I find it distressing that this forum is being used for such purposes with an uninformed audience. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm >From: brad@oc.mv.com >To: MFNews@egroups.com >Subject: [MFNews] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium >Summit >Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:55:09 -0000 > > >It has been requested that we post the full statement of Millennium >Forum Co-Chair Techeste Ahderom to this group. It follows: > >THE MILLENNIUM SUMMIT > >8 September 2000 > > >Afternoon Plenary -- Friday, 8 September 2000 > >Statement of Techeste Ahderom >Co-Chair, The Millennium Forum > > > >Madam and Mr. Co-Chairs, Distinguished Heads of State and Government, >Mr. Secretary-General, Excellencies, > > >Last May, representatives of civil society and non-governmental >organizations from all over the world gathered in this great hall to >consult about humanity's common future and, particularly, about >the >role of the United Nations in the 21st Century. > >The meeting was called the Millennium Forum, and, in light of the >wide ranging concerns of its participants, the geographic reach they >embodied -- including broad representation from developing countries - >- and the depth and breath of the organizations they represented, it >was one of the most diverse -- and significant -- gatherings of civil >society organizations ever held. > >The Forum was significant for its attempt to accelerate the process >among NGOs of networking and coalition building across issue areas >that has proved to be such a powerful force for change and social >action in today's world. The issues we considered included how to >establish a just and lasting peace; how to eradicate poverty; how to >set humanity on a path of sustainable development while protecting >our shared environment; how to see that human rights everywhere are >upheld -- at all times, by all nations; and how to face up to the >urgent challenges of globalization. > >In the end, despite our great diversity, we successfully agreed on a >powerfully worded "Declaration and Agenda for Action." It offers >a >bold vision for humanity's future and outlines a series of concrete >steps that the United Nations, governments, and members of civil >society themselves can take to address the global problems facing >humanity today. > >After hearing your speeches here over the last three days, I must say >that our vision and plan of action are consonant with much of what >has been said here. > >I am personally heartened by this and feel that this historic Summit >may well be remembered as having opened the door to a long-awaited >era of peace, justice and prosperity for all humanity. This new era >will, of course, require concrete deeds and not just words. > >We in civil society stand ready to work with you and your >governments, side by side, in a strong new partnership to create this >new world. At the same time, civil society also stands ready to hold >you to your commitments if you do not deliver on your words. > >Throughout history, from the abolition of slavery to the recognition >of the equality of women and men, most great social movements have >begun not with governments but with ordinary people. > >Even the idea of creating an international organization to end war >and establish a permanent peace originated with civil society. Before >the outbreak of the First World War, the leaders of a number of >international NGOs argued for the establishment of a "Commonwealth of >Nations" or "League of Nations" in which all states would band >together in collective security. These same organizations actively >supported the work of the League of Nations in the late 1920's. > >In 1945, civil society again played an important role in shaping many >of the key articles found in the Charter of the United Nations, >especially in the area of human rights. > >More recently, NGOs have played a leading role in shaping and >supporting an International Criminal Court, in the movement for debt >cancellation, and in the International Campaign to Ban Landmines. >Likewise, NGOs have led in creating such partnerships with the UN and >governments as with the NGO Steering Committee for the Commission on >Sustainable Development. > >On a number of occasions, Secretary General Kofi Annan has said that >civil society participation in and partnership with the United >Nations is not an "option," but a "necessity." > >We appreciate his efforts to facilitate effective partnership with >civil society at the United Nations. We thank him especially for >opening the UN to the Millennium Forum last May. As many of you know, >the idea for our Forum essentially originated with Mr. Annan some >three years ago when he called for a "companion People's Assembly" to >this Summit. And we thank Mr. Annan for making the Millennium Forum >Declaration available to this Summit as a UN document. > >The Millennium Forum itself grew out of long-established NGO >committees and networks. Planning began with the Conference on Non- >Governmental Organizations (CONGO), and included the UN DPI/NGO >Executive Committee. We sought to build upon an impressive series of >global NGO gatherings held last year, such as the Hague Appeal for >Peace, the Seoul International Conference of NGOs, World Civil >Society Conference, and the Young People's Millennium Assembly, >as >well as all of the great global NGO forums held in parallel with the >major United Nations conferences of the last decade, including Earth >Summit, the Beijing Women's Conference, and the Social Summit, among >others. > >We ask that you review carefully our Millennium Forum Declaration. I >think you'll find that, for the most part, we are simply calling on >governments to live up to the commitments and the principles that >they agreed to in the great global conferences of the 1990s. We are >also seeking increased NGO access to the UN General Assembly and its >main committees. > >Allow me to give you a few highlights of what the Forum called for in >its Declaration. > >The Forum's participants believe that, when a billion people go >to >bed hungry, it is a gross violation of human rights. The Declaration >calls for immediate debt cancellation. It also calls for a >"Global >Poverty Eradication Fund," aimed at offering the poor access to >credit. > >On globalization, the Forum took the view that, while it >offers "significant opportunities for people to connect, share >and >learn from each other," in its currently unregulated form it >increases "inequities between and within countries, undermines >local >traditions and cultures, and escalates disparities between rich and >poor, thereby marginalizing large numbers of people in urban and >rural areas." > >The Declaration urges governments to make serious "commitments to >restructure the global financial architecture based on principles of >equity, transparency, accountability, and democracy.," >stating >clearly that the United Nations should be the preeminent >international organization overseeing the World Bank, the IMF and the >WTO. > >The Declaration also calls for a greatly strengthened and >democratized United Nations, the most important global institution in >the world today -- and the only one currently capable of providing >the international framework and coordination needed to address the >critical challenges ahead. > >Specifically, the Forum called for a strengthened peacekeeping >regime, with the establishment of permanent police and peacekeeping >forces. It also calls for a reformed Security Council, invigorated >through an enlarged membership, more democratic procedures, and >eventual elimination of the veto. It also urges the formulation of a >draft proposal for global disarmament, to be discussed in a Special >Session of the General Assembly. > >In this day of global interdependence, a much strengthened United >Nations is our best protection against global calamity, be it >economic, environmental, the spread of a new epidemic or a major new >conflict. > >To conclude, the Millennium Forum Declaration seeks to articulate the >hopes and aspirations of the peoples of the world. As its opening >paragraphs state: > >"Our vision is of a world that is human-centered and genuinely >democratic, where all human beings are full participants and >determine their own destinies. In our vision we are one human family, >in all our diversity, living on one common homeland and sharing a >just, sustainable and peaceful world, guided by universal principles >of democracy, equality, inclusion, voluntarism, non-discrimination >and participation by all persons.." > >Thank you for your attention. > > > > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >MFNews-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at https://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at https://profiles.msn.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: MFDiscuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com ---------- From: [SMTP:earthrisepress@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 5:06 PM To: MFNews@egroups.com Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [MFNews] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium Summit Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, observes in the conclusion of his book Modernity and the Millennium (Columbia University Press, 1998): "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriarchy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed" (196). Cole himself and many others have suffered at the hands of Baha'i fundamentalists who hide behind putatively liberal activities, such as at the United Nations: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement" Cole (201). These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai on Usenet for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. Both my and Cole's Bahai websites provide essential documentation along these lines. It should be noted that the Universal House of Justice has actively worked through the BCCA (Bahai Computer and Communications Association) to suppress all links to websites with other than its own "comprehensive" point of view on such major portals as Yahoo.com, Excite.com, and other search engines. The UHJ has gone even further by advising Bahais to remove any link whatsoever to Professor Cole's website. See his comments along these lines: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm And his article The Baha’i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. I find it distressing that this forum is being used for such purposes with an uninformed audience. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm >From: brad@oc.mv.com >To: MFNews@egroups.com >Subject: [MFNews] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium Summit >Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:55:09 -0000 > >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> >Nothing makes you feel like a new car >So treat yourself the easy way >Click below >https://click.egroups.com/1/8419/17/_/_/_/968677086/ >---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> > >It has been requested that we post the full statement of Millennium >Forum Co-Chair Techeste Ahderom to this group. It follows: > >THE MILLENNIUM SUMMIT > >8 September 2000 > > >Afternoon Plenary -- Friday, 8 September 2000 > >Statement of Techeste Ahderom >Co-Chair, The Millennium Forum > > > >Madam and Mr. Co-Chairs, Distinguished Heads of State and Government, >Mr. Secretary-General, Excellencies, > > >Last May, representatives of civil society and non-governmental >organizations from all over the world gathered in this great hall to >consult about humanity's common future and, particularly, about >the >role of the United Nations in the 21st Century. > >The meeting was called the Millennium Forum, and, in light of the >wide ranging concerns of its participants, the geographic reach they >embodied -- including broad representation from developing countries - >- and the depth and breath of the organizations they represented, it >was one of the most diverse -- and significant -- gatherings of civil >society organizations ever held. > >The Forum was significant for its attempt to accelerate the process >among NGOs of networking and coalition building across issue areas >that has proved to be such a powerful force for change and social >action in today's world. The issues we considered included how to >establish a just and lasting peace; how to eradicate poverty; how to >set humanity on a path of sustainable development while protecting >our shared environment; how to see that human rights everywhere are >upheld -- at all times, by all nations; and how to face up to the >urgent challenges of globalization. > >In the end, despite our great diversity, we successfully agreed on a >powerfully worded "Declaration and Agenda for Action." It offers >a >bold vision for humanity's future and outlines a series of concrete >steps that the United Nations, governments, and members of civil >society themselves can take to address the global problems facing >humanity today. > >After hearing your speeches here over the last three days, I must say >that our vision and plan of action are consonant with much of what >has been said here. > >I am personally heartened by this and feel that this historic Summit >may well be remembered as having opened the door to a long-awaited >era of peace, justice and prosperity for all humanity. This new era >will, of course, require concrete deeds and not just words. > >We in civil society stand ready to work with you and your >governments, side by side, in a strong new partnership to create this >new world. At the same time, civil society also stands ready to hold >you to your commitments if you do not deliver on your words. > >Throughout history, from the abolition of slavery to the recognition >of the equality of women and men, most great social movements have >begun not with governments but with ordinary people. > >Even the idea of creating an international organization to end war >and establish a permanent peace originated with civil society. Before >the outbreak of the First World War, the leaders of a number of >international NGOs argued for the establishment of a "Commonwealth of >Nations" or "League of Nations" in which all states would band >together in collective security. These same organizations actively >supported the work of the League of Nations in the late 1920's. > >In 1945, civil society again played an important role in shaping many >of the key articles found in the Charter of the United Nations, >especially in the area of human rights. > >More recently, NGOs have played a leading role in shaping and >supporting an International Criminal Court, in the movement for debt >cancellation, and in the International Campaign to Ban Landmines. >Likewise, NGOs have led in creating such partnerships with the UN and >governments as with the NGO Steering Committee for the Commission on >Sustainable Development. > >On a number of occasions, Secretary General Kofi Annan has said that >civil society participation in and partnership with the United >Nations is not an "option," but a "necessity." > >We appreciate his efforts to facilitate effective partnership with >civil society at the United Nations. We thank him especially for >opening the UN to the Millennium Forum last May. As many of you know, >the idea for our Forum essentially originated with Mr. Annan some >three years ago when he called for a "companion People's Assembly" to >this Summit. And we thank Mr. Annan for making the Millennium Forum >Declaration available to this Summit as a UN document. > >The Millennium Forum itself grew out of long-established NGO >committees and networks. Planning began with the Conference on Non- >Governmental Organizations (CONGO), and included the UN DPI/NGO >Executive Committee. We sought to build upon an impressive series of >global NGO gatherings held last year, such as the Hague Appeal for >Peace, the Seoul International Conference of NGOs, World Civil >Society Conference, and the Young People's Millennium Assembly, >as >well as all of the great global NGO forums held in parallel with the >major United Nations conferences of the last decade, including Earth >Summit, the Beijing Women's Conference, and the Social Summit, among >others. > >We ask that you review carefully our Millennium Forum Declaration. I >think you'll find that, for the most part, we are simply calling on >governments to live up to the commitments and the principles that >they agreed to in the great global conferences of the 1990s. We are >also seeking increased NGO access to the UN General Assembly and its >main committees. > >Allow me to give you a few highlights of what the Forum called for in >its Declaration. > >The Forum's participants believe that, when a billion people go >to >bed hungry, it is a gross violation of human rights. The Declaration >calls for immediate debt cancellation. It also calls for a >"Global >Poverty Eradication Fund," aimed at offering the poor access to >credit. > >On globalization, the Forum took the view that, while it >offers "significant opportunities for people to connect, share >and >learn from each other," in its currently unregulated form it >increases "inequities between and within countries, undermines >local >traditions and cultures, and escalates disparities between rich and >poor, thereby marginalizing large numbers of people in urban and >rural areas." > >The Declaration urges governments to make serious "commitments to >restructure the global financial architecture based on principles of >equity, transparency, accountability, and democracy…," >stating >clearly that the United Nations should be the preeminent >international organization overseeing the World Bank, the IMF and the >WTO. > >The Declaration also calls for a greatly strengthened and >democratized United Nations, the most important global institution in >the world today -- and the only one currently capable of providing >the international framework and coordination needed to address the >critical challenges ahead. > >Specifically, the Forum called for a strengthened peacekeeping >regime, with the establishment of permanent police and peacekeeping >forces. It also calls for a reformed Security Council, invigorated >through an enlarged membership, more democratic procedures, and >eventual elimination of the veto. It also urges the formulation of a >draft proposal for global disarmament, to be discussed in a Special >Session of the General Assembly. > >In this day of global interdependence, a much strengthened United >Nations is our best protection against global calamity, be it >economic, environmental, the spread of a new epidemic or a major new >conflict. > >To conclude, the Millennium Forum Declaration seeks to articulate the >hopes and aspirations of the peoples of the world. As its opening >paragraphs state: > >"Our vision is of a world that is human-centered and genuinely >democratic, where all human beings are full participants and >determine their own destinies. In our vision we are one human family, >in all our diversity, living on one common homeland and sharing a >just, sustainable and peaceful world, guided by universal principles >of democracy, equality, inclusion, voluntarism, non-discrimination >and participation by all persons…." > >Thank you for your attention. > > > > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >MFNews-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > ---------- From: earthrisepress@hotmail.com[SMTP:earthrisepress@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 5:06 PM To: MFNews@egroups.com Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [MFNews] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium Summit Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, observes in the conclusion of his book Modernity and the Millennium (Columbia University Press, 1998): "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriarchy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed" (196). Cole himself and many others have suffered at the hands of Baha'i fundamentalists who hide behind putatively liberal activities, such as at the United Nations: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement" Cole (201). These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai on Usenet for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. Both my and Cole's Bahai websites provide essential documentation along these lines. It should be noted that the Universal House of Justice has actively worked through the BCCA (Bahai Computer and Communications Association) to suppress all links to websites with other than its own "comprehensive" point of view on such major portals as Yahoo.com, Excite.com, and other search engines. The UHJ has gone even further by advising Bahais to remove any link whatsoever to Professor Cole's website. See his comments along these lines: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm And his article The Baha’i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. I find it distressing that this forum is being used for such purposes with an uninformed audience. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm >From: brad@oc.mv.com >To: MFNews@egroups.com >Subject: [MFNews] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium Summit >Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:55:09 -0000 > >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> >Nothing makes you feel like a new car >So treat yourself the easy way >Click below >https://click.egroups.com/1/8419/17/_/_/_/968677086/ >---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> > >It has been requested that we post the full statement of Millennium >Forum Co-Chair Techeste Ahderom to this group. It follows: > >THE MILLENNIUM SUMMIT > >8 September 2000 > > >Afternoon Plenary -- Friday, 8 September 2000 > >Statement of Techeste Ahderom >Co-Chair, The Millennium Forum > > > >Madam and Mr. Co-Chairs, Distinguished Heads of State and Government, >Mr. Secretary-General, Excellencies, > > >Last May, representatives of civil society and non-governmental >organizations from all over the world gathered in this great hall to >consult about humanity's common future and, particularly, about >the >role of the United Nations in the 21st Century. > >The meeting was called the Millennium Forum, and, in light of the >wide ranging concerns of its participants, the geographic reach they >embodied -- including broad representation from developing countries - >- and the depth and breath of the organizations they represented, it >was one of the most diverse -- and significant -- gatherings of civil >society organizations ever held. > >The Forum was significant for its attempt to accelerate the process >among NGOs of networking and coalition building across issue areas >that has proved to be such a powerful force for change and social >action in today's world. The issues we considered included how to >establish a just and lasting peace; how to eradicate poverty; how to >set humanity on a path of sustainable development while protecting >our shared environment; how to see that human rights everywhere are >upheld -- at all times, by all nations; and how to face up to the >urgent challenges of globalization. > >In the end, despite our great diversity, we successfully agreed on a >powerfully worded "Declaration and Agenda for Action." It offers >a >bold vision for humanity's future and outlines a series of concrete >steps that the United Nations, governments, and members of civil >society themselves can take to address the global problems facing >humanity today. > >After hearing your speeches here over the last three days, I must say >that our vision and plan of action are consonant with much of what >has been said here. > >I am personally heartened by this and feel that this historic Summit >may well be remembered as having opened the door to a long-awaited >era of peace, justice and prosperity for all humanity. This new era >will, of course, require concrete deeds and not just words. > >We in civil society stand ready to work with you and your >governments, side by side, in a strong new partnership to create this >new world. At the same time, civil society also stands ready to hold >you to your commitments if you do not deliver on your words. > >Throughout history, from the abolition of slavery to the recognition >of the equality of women and men, most great social movements have >begun not with governments but with ordinary people. > >Even the idea of creating an international organization to end war >and establish a permanent peace originated with civil society. Before >the outbreak of the First World War, the leaders of a number of >international NGOs argued for the establishment of a "Commonwealth of >Nations" or "League of Nations" in which all states would band >together in collective security. These same organizations actively >supported the work of the League of Nations in the late 1920's. > >In 1945, civil society again played an important role in shaping many >of the key articles found in the Charter of the United Nations, >especially in the area of human rights. > >More recently, NGOs have played a leading role in shaping and >supporting an International Criminal Court, in the movement for debt >cancellation, and in the International Campaign to Ban Landmines. >Likewise, NGOs have led in creating such partnerships with the UN and >governments as with the NGO Steering Committee for the Commission on >Sustainable Development. > >On a number of occasions, Secretary General Kofi Annan has said that >civil society participation in and partnership with the United >Nations is not an "option," but a "necessity." > >We appreciate his efforts to facilitate effective partnership with >civil society at the United Nations. We thank him especially for >opening the UN to the Millennium Forum last May. As many of you know, >the idea for our Forum essentially originated with Mr. Annan some >three years ago when he called for a "companion People's Assembly" to >this Summit. And we thank Mr. Annan for making the Millennium Forum >Declaration available to this Summit as a UN document. > >The Millennium Forum itself grew out of long-established NGO >committees and networks. Planning began with the Conference on Non- >Governmental Organizations (CONGO), and included the UN DPI/NGO >Executive Committee. We sought to build upon an impressive series of >global NGO gatherings held last year, such as the Hague Appeal for >Peace, the Seoul International Conference of NGOs, World Civil >Society Conference, and the Young People's Millennium Assembly, >as >well as all of the great global NGO forums held in parallel with the >major United Nations conferences of the last decade, including Earth >Summit, the Beijing Women's Conference, and the Social Summit, among >others. > >We ask that you review carefully our Millennium Forum Declaration. I >think you'll find that, for the most part, we are simply calling on >governments to live up to the commitments and the principles that >they agreed to in the great global conferences of the 1990s. We are >also seeking increased NGO access to the UN General Assembly and its >main committees. > >Allow me to give you a few highlights of what the Forum called for in >its Declaration. > >The Forum's participants believe that, when a billion people go >to >bed hungry, it is a gross violation of human rights. The Declaration >calls for immediate debt cancellation. It also calls for a >"Global >Poverty Eradication Fund," aimed at offering the poor access to >credit. > >On globalization, the Forum took the view that, while it >offers "significant opportunities for people to connect, share >and >learn from each other," in its currently unregulated form it >increases "inequities between and within countries, undermines >local >traditions and cultures, and escalates disparities between rich and >poor, thereby marginalizing large numbers of people in urban and >rural areas." > >The Declaration urges governments to make serious "commitments to >restructure the global financial architecture based on principles of >equity, transparency, accountability, and democracy…," >stating >clearly that the United Nations should be the preeminent >international organization overseeing the World Bank, the IMF and the >WTO. > >The Declaration also calls for a greatly strengthened and >democratized United Nations, the most important global institution in >the world today -- and the only one currently capable of providing >the international framework and coordination needed to address the >critical challenges ahead. > >Specifically, the Forum called for a strengthened peacekeeping >regime, with the establishment of permanent police and peacekeeping >forces. It also calls for a reformed Security Council, invigorated >through an enlarged membership, more democratic procedures, and >eventual elimination of the veto. It also urges the formulation of a >draft proposal for global disarmament, to be discussed in a Special >Session of the General Assembly. > >In this day of global interdependence, a much strengthened United >Nations is our best protection against global calamity, be it >economic, environmental, the spread of a new epidemic or a major new >conflict. > >To conclude, the Millennium Forum Declaration seeks to articulate the >hopes and aspirations of the peoples of the world. As its opening >paragraphs state: > >"Our vision is of a world that is human-centered and genuinely >democratic, where all human beings are full participants and >determine their own destinies. In our vision we are one human family, >in all our diversity, living on one common homeland and sharing a >just, sustainable and peaceful world, guided by universal principles >of democracy, equality, inclusion, voluntarism, non-discrimination >and participation by all persons…." > >Thank you for your attention. > > > > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >MFNews-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > ---------- From: [SMTP:earthrisepress@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 6:16 PM To: MFNews-owner@egroups.com Subject: [MFNews] Re Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, observes in the conclusion of his book Modernity and the Millennium (Columbia University Press, 1998): "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriarchy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed" (196). Cole himself and many others have suffered at the hands of Baha'i fundamentalists who hide behind putatively liberal activities, such as at the United Nations: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement" Cole (201). These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai on Usenet for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. Both my and Cole's Bahai websites provide essential documentation along these lines. It should be noted that the Universal House of Justice has actively worked through the BCCA (Bahai Computer and Communications Association) to suppress all links to websites with other than its own "comprehensive" point of view on such major portals as Yahoo.com, Excite.com, and other search engines. The UHJ has gone even further by advising Bahais to remove any link whatsoever to Professor Cole's website. See his comments along these lines: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm And his article The Baha’i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. I find it distressing that this forum is being used for such purposes with an uninformed audience. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm >From: brad@oc.mv.com >To: MFNews@egroups.com >Subject: [MFNews] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium >Summit >Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:55:09 -0000 > >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> >Nothing makes you feel like a new car >So treat yourself the easy way >Click below >https://click.egroups.com/1/8419/17/_/_/_/968677086/ >---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> > >It has been requested that we post the full statement of Millennium >Forum Co-Chair Techeste Ahderom to this group. It follows: > >THE MILLENNIUM SUMMIT > >8 September 2000 > > >Afternoon Plenary -- Friday, 8 September 2000 > >Statement of Techeste Ahderom >Co-Chair, The Millennium Forum > > > >Madam and Mr. Co-Chairs, Distinguished Heads of State and Government, >Mr. Secretary-General, Excellencies, > > >Last May, representatives of civil society and non-governmental >organizations from all over the world gathered in this great hall to >consult about humanity's common future and, particularly, about >the >role of the United Nations in the 21st Century. > >The meeting was called the Millennium Forum, and, in light of the >wide ranging concerns of its participants, the geographic reach they >embodied -- including broad representation from developing countries - >- and the depth and breath of the organizations they represented, it >was one of the most diverse -- and significant -- gatherings of civil >society organizations ever held. > >The Forum was significant for its attempt to accelerate the process >among NGOs of networking and coalition building across issue areas >that has proved to be such a powerful force for change and social >action in today's world. The issues we considered included how to >establish a just and lasting peace; how to eradicate poverty; how to >set humanity on a path of sustainable development while protecting >our shared environment; how to see that human rights everywhere are >upheld -- at all times, by all nations; and how to face up to the >urgent challenges of globalization. > >In the end, despite our great diversity, we successfully agreed on a >powerfully worded "Declaration and Agenda for Action." It offers >a >bold vision for humanity's future and outlines a series of concrete >steps that the United Nations, governments, and members of civil >society themselves can take to address the global problems facing >humanity today. > >After hearing your speeches here over the last three days, I must say >that our vision and plan of action are consonant with much of what >has been said here. > >I am personally heartened by this and feel that this historic Summit >may well be remembered as having opened the door to a long-awaited >era of peace, justice and prosperity for all humanity. This new era >will, of course, require concrete deeds and not just words. > >We in civil society stand ready to work with you and your >governments, side by side, in a strong new partnership to create this >new world. At the same time, civil society also stands ready to hold >you to your commitments if you do not deliver on your words. > >Throughout history, from the abolition of slavery to the recognition >of the equality of women and men, most great social movements have >begun not with governments but with ordinary people. > >Even the idea of creating an international organization to end war >and establish a permanent peace originated with civil society. Before >the outbreak of the First World War, the leaders of a number of >international NGOs argued for the establishment of a "Commonwealth of >Nations" or "League of Nations" in which all states would band >together in collective security. These same organizations actively >supported the work of the League of Nations in the late 1920's. > >In 1945, civil society again played an important role in shaping many >of the key articles found in the Charter of the United Nations, >especially in the area of human rights. > >More recently, NGOs have played a leading role in shaping and >supporting an International Criminal Court, in the movement for debt >cancellation, and in the International Campaign to Ban Landmines. >Likewise, NGOs have led in creating such partnerships with the UN and >governments as with the NGO Steering Committee for the Commission on >Sustainable Development. > >On a number of occasions, Secretary General Kofi Annan has said that >civil society participation in and partnership with the United >Nations is not an "option," but a "necessity." > >We appreciate his efforts to facilitate effective partnership with >civil society at the United Nations. We thank him especially for >opening the UN to the Millennium Forum last May. As many of you know, >the idea for our Forum essentially originated with Mr. Annan some >three years ago when he called for a "companion People's Assembly" to >this Summit. And we thank Mr. Annan for making the Millennium Forum >Declaration available to this Summit as a UN document. > >The Millennium Forum itself grew out of long-established NGO >committees and networks. Planning began with the Conference on Non- >Governmental Organizations (CONGO), and included the UN DPI/NGO >Executive Committee. We sought to build upon an impressive series of >global NGO gatherings held last year, such as the Hague Appeal for >Peace, the Seoul International Conference of NGOs, World Civil >Society Conference, and the Young People's Millennium Assembly, >as >well as all of the great global NGO forums held in parallel with the >major United Nations conferences of the last decade, including Earth >Summit, the Beijing Women's Conference, and the Social Summit, among >others. > >We ask that you review carefully our Millennium Forum Declaration. I >think you'll find that, for the most part, we are simply calling on >governments to live up to the commitments and the principles that >they agreed to in the great global conferences of the 1990s. We are >also seeking increased NGO access to the UN General Assembly and its >main committees. > >Allow me to give you a few highlights of what the Forum called for in >its Declaration. > >The Forum's participants believe that, when a billion people go >to >bed hungry, it is a gross violation of human rights. The Declaration >calls for immediate debt cancellation. It also calls for a >"Global >Poverty Eradication Fund," aimed at offering the poor access to >credit. > >On globalization, the Forum took the view that, while it >offers "significant opportunities for people to connect, share >and >learn from each other," in its currently unregulated form it >increases "inequities between and within countries, undermines >local >traditions and cultures, and escalates disparities between rich and >poor, thereby marginalizing large numbers of people in urban and >rural areas." > >The Declaration urges governments to make serious "commitments to >restructure the global financial architecture based on principles of >equity, transparency, accountability, and democracy…," >stating >clearly that the United Nations should be the preeminent >international organization overseeing the World Bank, the IMF and the >WTO. > >The Declaration also calls for a greatly strengthened and >democratized United Nations, the most important global institution in >the world today -- and the only one currently capable of providing >the international framework and coordination needed to address the >critical challenges ahead. > >Specifically, the Forum called for a strengthened peacekeeping >regime, with the establishment of permanent police and peacekeeping >forces. It also calls for a reformed Security Council, invigorated >through an enlarged membership, more democratic procedures, and >eventual elimination of the veto. It also urges the formulation of a >draft proposal for global disarmament, to be discussed in a Special >Session of the General Assembly. > >In this day of global interdependence, a much strengthened United >Nations is our best protection against global calamity, be it >economic, environmental, the spread of a new epidemic or a major new >conflict. > >To conclude, the Millennium Forum Declaration seeks to articulate the >hopes and aspirations of the peoples of the world. As its opening >paragraphs state: > >"Our vision is of a world that is human-centered and genuinely >democratic, where all human beings are full participants and >determine their own destinies. In our vision we are one human family, >in all our diversity, living on one common homeland and sharing a >just, sustainable and peaceful world, guided by universal principles >of democracy, equality, inclusion, voluntarism, non-discrimination >and participation by all persons…." > >Thank you for your attention. > > > > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >MFNews-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at https://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at https://profiles.msn.com. ---------- From: [SMTP:earthrisepress@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 6:21 PM To: MFDiscuss@egroups.com Subject: Re: [MFDiscuss] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium Summit Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, observes in the conclusion of his book Modernity and the Millennium (Columbia University Press, 1998): "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriarchy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed" (196). Cole himself and many others have suffered at the hands of Baha'i fundamentalists who hide behind putatively liberal activities, such as at the United Nations: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement" Cole (201). These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai on Usenet for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. Both my and Cole's Bahai websites provide essential documentation along these lines. It should be noted that the Universal House of Justice has actively worked through the BCCA (Bahai Computer and Communications Association) to suppress all links to websites with other than its own "comprehensive" point of view on such major portals as Yahoo.com, Excite.com, and other search engines. The UHJ has gone even further by advising Bahais to remove any link whatsoever to Professor Cole's website. See his comments along these lines: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm And his article The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. I find it distressing that this forum is being used for such purposes with an uninformed audience. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm >From: brad@oc.mv.com >To: MFNews@egroups.com >Subject: [MFNews] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium >Summit >Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:55:09 -0000 > >-------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> >Nothing makes you feel like a new car >So treat yourself the easy way >Click below >https://click.egroups.com/1/8419/17/_/_/_/968677086/ >---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> > >It has been requested that we post the full statement of Millennium >Forum Co-Chair Techeste Ahderom to this group. It follows: > >THE MILLENNIUM SUMMIT > >8 September 2000 > > >Afternoon Plenary -- Friday, 8 September 2000 > >Statement of Techeste Ahderom >Co-Chair, The Millennium Forum > > > >Madam and Mr. Co-Chairs, Distinguished Heads of State and Government, >Mr. Secretary-General, Excellencies, > > >Last May, representatives of civil society and non-governmental >organizations from all over the world gathered in this great hall to >consult about humanity's common future and, particularly, about >the >role of the United Nations in the 21st Century. > >The meeting was called the Millennium Forum, and, in light of the >wide ranging concerns of its participants, the geographic reach they >embodied -- including broad representation from developing countries - >- and the depth and breath of the organizations they represented, it >was one of the most diverse -- and significant -- gatherings of civil >society organizations ever held. > >The Forum was significant for its attempt to accelerate the process >among NGOs of networking and coalition building across issue areas >that has proved to be such a powerful force for change and social >action in today's world. The issues we considered included how to >establish a just and lasting peace; how to eradicate poverty; how to >set humanity on a path of sustainable development while protecting >our shared environment; how to see that human rights everywhere are >upheld -- at all times, by all nations; and how to face up to the >urgent challenges of globalization. > >In the end, despite our great diversity, we successfully agreed on a >powerfully worded "Declaration and Agenda for Action." It offers >a >bold vision for humanity's future and outlines a series of concrete >steps that the United Nations, governments, and members of civil >society themselves can take to address the global problems facing >humanity today. > >After hearing your speeches here over the last three days, I must say >that our vision and plan of action are consonant with much of what >has been said here. > >I am personally heartened by this and feel that this historic Summit >may well be remembered as having opened the door to a long-awaited >era of peace, justice and prosperity for all humanity. This new era >will, of course, require concrete deeds and not just words. > >We in civil society stand ready to work with you and your >governments, side by side, in a strong new partnership to create this >new world. At the same time, civil society also stands ready to hold >you to your commitments if you do not deliver on your words. > >Throughout history, from the abolition of slavery to the recognition >of the equality of women and men, most great social movements have >begun not with governments but with ordinary people. > >Even the idea of creating an international organization to end war >and establish a permanent peace originated with civil society. Before >the outbreak of the First World War, the leaders of a number of >international NGOs argued for the establishment of a "Commonwealth of >Nations" or "League of Nations" in which all states would band >together in collective security. These same organizations actively >supported the work of the League of Nations in the late 1920's. > >In 1945, civil society again played an important role in shaping many >of the key articles found in the Charter of the United Nations, >especially in the area of human rights. > >More recently, NGOs have played a leading role in shaping and >supporting an International Criminal Court, in the movement for debt >cancellation, and in the International Campaign to Ban Landmines. >Likewise, NGOs have led in creating such partnerships with the UN and >governments as with the NGO Steering Committee for the Commission on >Sustainable Development. > >On a number of occasions, Secretary General Kofi Annan has said that >civil society participation in and partnership with the United >Nations is not an "option," but a "necessity." > >We appreciate his efforts to facilitate effective partnership with >civil society at the United Nations. We thank him especially for >opening the UN to the Millennium Forum last May. As many of you know, >the idea for our Forum essentially originated with Mr. Annan some >three years ago when he called for a "companion People's Assembly" to >this Summit. And we thank Mr. Annan for making the Millennium Forum >Declaration available to this Summit as a UN document. > >The Millennium Forum itself grew out of long-established NGO >committees and networks. Planning began with the Conference on Non- >Governmental Organizations (CONGO), and included the UN DPI/NGO >Executive Committee. We sought to build upon an impressive series of >global NGO gatherings held last year, such as the Hague Appeal for >Peace, the Seoul International Conference of NGOs, World Civil >Society Conference, and the Young People's Millennium Assembly, >as >well as all of the great global NGO forums held in parallel with the >major United Nations conferences of the last decade, including Earth >Summit, the Beijing Women's Conference, and the Social Summit, among >others. > >We ask that you review carefully our Millennium Forum Declaration. I >think you'll find that, for the most part, we are simply calling on >governments to live up to the commitments and the principles that >they agreed to in the great global conferences of the 1990s. We are >also seeking increased NGO access to the UN General Assembly and its >main committees. > >Allow me to give you a few highlights of what the Forum called for in >its Declaration. > >The Forum's participants believe that, when a billion people go >to >bed hungry, it is a gross violation of human rights. The Declaration >calls for immediate debt cancellation. It also calls for a >"Global >Poverty Eradication Fund," aimed at offering the poor access to >credit. > >On globalization, the Forum took the view that, while it >offers "significant opportunities for people to connect, share >and >learn from each other," in its currently unregulated form it >increases "inequities between and within countries, undermines >local >traditions and cultures, and escalates disparities between rich and >poor, thereby marginalizing large numbers of people in urban and >rural areas." > >The Declaration urges governments to make serious "commitments to >restructure the global financial architecture based on principles of >equity, transparency, accountability, and democracy.," >stating >clearly that the United Nations should be the preeminent >international organization overseeing the World Bank, the IMF and the >WTO. > >The Declaration also calls for a greatly strengthened and >democratized United Nations, the most important global institution in >the world today -- and the only one currently capable of providing >the international framework and coordination needed to address the >critical challenges ahead. > >Specifically, the Forum called for a strengthened peacekeeping >regime, with the establishment of permanent police and peacekeeping >forces. It also calls for a reformed Security Council, invigorated >through an enlarged membership, more democratic procedures, and >eventual elimination of the veto. It also urges the formulation of a >draft proposal for global disarmament, to be discussed in a Special >Session of the General Assembly. > >In this day of global interdependence, a much strengthened United >Nations is our best protection against global calamity, be it >economic, environmental, the spread of a new epidemic or a major new >conflict. > >To conclude, the Millennium Forum Declaration seeks to articulate the >hopes and aspirations of the peoples of the world. As its opening >paragraphs state: > >"Our vision is of a world that is human-centered and genuinely >democratic, where all human beings are full participants and >determine their own destinies. In our vision we are one human family, >in all our diversity, living on one common homeland and sharing a >just, sustainable and peaceful world, guided by universal principles >of democracy, equality, inclusion, voluntarism, non-discrimination >and participation by all persons.." > >Thank you for your attention. > > > > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >MFNews-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at https://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at https://profiles.msn.com. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 8:10 PM Subject: bahai - Re: [MFDiscuss] Statement of the Millennium Forum to Millennium Summit FYI ----- Original Message ----- From: "" To: Millennium Forum Discussion Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 6:21 PM Subject: Re: [MFDiscuss] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium Summit > Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, > observes in the conclusion of his book Modernity and the Millennium > (Columbia University Press, 1998): > > "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers > increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural > literalism, patriarchy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and > denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-century > Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a > minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed" > (196). > > Cole himself and many others have suffered at the hands of Baha'i > fundamentalists who hide behind putatively liberal activities, > such as at the United Nations: > > "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the > community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and > antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of > prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement" > Cole (201). > > These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on > talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai on Usenet for impartial viewers > to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever > forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. Both my and Cole's > Bahai websites provide essential documentation along these lines. > > It should be noted that the Universal House of Justice has actively worked > through the BCCA (Bahai Computer and Communications Association) to suppress > all links to websites with other than its own "comprehensive" point of view > on such major portals as Yahoo.com, Excite.com, and other search engines. > The UHJ has gone even further by advising Bahais to remove any link > whatsoever to Professor Cole's website. See his comments along these lines: > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm > And his article The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the > manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions > and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while > pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. > > I find it distressing that this forum is being used for such purposes with > an uninformed audience. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > > > >From: brad@oc.mv.com > >To: MFNews@egroups.com > >Subject: [MFNews] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium > >Summit > >Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:55:09 -0000 > > > > > >It has been requested that we post the full statement of Millennium > >Forum Co-Chair Techeste Ahderom to this group. It follows: > > > >THE MILLENNIUM SUMMIT > > > >8 September 2000 > > > > > >Afternoon Plenary -- Friday, 8 September 2000 > > > >Statement of Techeste Ahderom > >Co-Chair, The Millennium Forum > > > > > > > >Madam and Mr. Co-Chairs, Distinguished Heads of State and Government, > >Mr. Secretary-General, Excellencies, > > > > > >Last May, representatives of civil society and non-governmental > >organizations from all over the world gathered in this great hall to > >consult about humanity's common future and, particularly, about > >the > >role of the United Nations in the 21st Century. > > > >The meeting was called the Millennium Forum, and, in light of the > >wide ranging concerns of its participants, the geographic reach they > >embodied -- including broad representation from developing countries - > >- and the depth and breath of the organizations they represented, it > >was one of the most diverse -- and significant -- gatherings of civil > >society organizations ever held. > > > >The Forum was significant for its attempt to accelerate the process > >among NGOs of networking and coalition building across issue areas > >that has proved to be such a powerful force for change and social > >action in today's world. The issues we considered included how to > >establish a just and lasting peace; how to eradicate poverty; how to > >set humanity on a path of sustainable development while protecting > >our shared environment; how to see that human rights everywhere are > >upheld -- at all times, by all nations; and how to face up to the > >urgent challenges of globalization. > > > >In the end, despite our great diversity, we successfully agreed on a > >powerfully worded "Declaration and Agenda for Action." It offers > >a > >bold vision for humanity's future and outlines a series of concrete > >steps that the United Nations, governments, and members of civil > >society themselves can take to address the global problems facing > >humanity today. > > > >After hearing your speeches here over the last three days, I must say > >that our vision and plan of action are consonant with much of what > >has been said here. > > > >I am personally heartened by this and feel that this historic Summit > >may well be remembered as having opened the door to a long-awaited > >era of peace, justice and prosperity for all humanity. This new era > >will, of course, require concrete deeds and not just words. > > > >We in civil society stand ready to work with you and your > >governments, side by side, in a strong new partnership to create this > >new world. At the same time, civil society also stands ready to hold > >you to your commitments if you do not deliver on your words. > > > >Throughout history, from the abolition of slavery to the recognition > >of the equality of women and men, most great social movements have > >begun not with governments but with ordinary people. > > > >Even the idea of creating an international organization to end war > >and establish a permanent peace originated with civil society. Before > >the outbreak of the First World War, the leaders of a number of > >international NGOs argued for the establishment of a "Commonwealth of > >Nations" or "League of Nations" in which all states would band > >together in collective security. These same organizations actively > >supported the work of the League of Nations in the late 1920's. > > > >In 1945, civil society again played an important role in shaping many > >of the key articles found in the Charter of the United Nations, > >especially in the area of human rights. > > > >More recently, NGOs have played a leading role in shaping and > >supporting an International Criminal Court, in the movement for debt > >cancellation, and in the International Campaign to Ban Landmines. > >Likewise, NGOs have led in creating such partnerships with the UN and > >governments as with the NGO Steering Committee for the Commission on > >Sustainable Development. > > > >On a number of occasions, Secretary General Kofi Annan has said that > >civil society participation in and partnership with the United > >Nations is not an "option," but a "necessity." > > > >We appreciate his efforts to facilitate effective partnership with > >civil society at the United Nations. We thank him especially for > >opening the UN to the Millennium Forum last May. As many of you know, > >the idea for our Forum essentially originated with Mr. Annan some > >three years ago when he called for a "companion People's Assembly" to > >this Summit. And we thank Mr. Annan for making the Millennium Forum > >Declaration available to this Summit as a UN document. > > > >The Millennium Forum itself grew out of long-established NGO > >committees and networks. Planning began with the Conference on Non- > >Governmental Organizations (CONGO), and included the UN DPI/NGO > >Executive Committee. We sought to build upon an impressive series of > >global NGO gatherings held last year, such as the Hague Appeal for > >Peace, the Seoul International Conference of NGOs, World Civil > >Society Conference, and the Young People's Millennium Assembly, > >as > >well as all of the great global NGO forums held in parallel with the > >major United Nations conferences of the last decade, including Earth > >Summit, the Beijing Women's Conference, and the Social Summit, among > >others. > > > >We ask that you review carefully our Millennium Forum Declaration. I > >think you'll find that, for the most part, we are simply calling on > >governments to live up to the commitments and the principles that > >they agreed to in the great global conferences of the 1990s. We are > >also seeking increased NGO access to the UN General Assembly and its > >main committees. > > > >Allow me to give you a few highlights of what the Forum called for in > >its Declaration. > > > >The Forum's participants believe that, when a billion people go > >to > >bed hungry, it is a gross violation of human rights. The Declaration > >calls for immediate debt cancellation. It also calls for a > >"Global > >Poverty Eradication Fund," aimed at offering the poor access to > >credit. > > > >On globalization, the Forum took the view that, while it > >offers "significant opportunities for people to connect, share > >and > >learn from each other," in its currently unregulated form it > >increases "inequities between and within countries, undermines > >local > >traditions and cultures, and escalates disparities between rich and > >poor, thereby marginalizing large numbers of people in urban and > >rural areas." > > > >The Declaration urges governments to make serious "commitments to > >restructure the global financial architecture based on principles of > >equity, transparency, accountability, and democracy.," > >stating > >clearly that the United Nations should be the preeminent > >international organization overseeing the World Bank, the IMF and the > >WTO. > > > >The Declaration also calls for a greatly strengthened and > >democratized United Nations, the most important global institution in > >the world today -- and the only one currently capable of providing > >the international framework and coordination needed to address the > >critical challenges ahead. > > > >Specifically, the Forum called for a strengthened peacekeeping > >regime, with the establishment of permanent police and peacekeeping > >forces. It also calls for a reformed Security Council, invigorated > >through an enlarged membership, more democratic procedures, and > >eventual elimination of the veto. It also urges the formulation of a > >draft proposal for global disarmament, to be discussed in a Special > >Session of the General Assembly. > > > >In this day of global interdependence, a much strengthened United > >Nations is our best protection against global calamity, be it > >economic, environmental, the spread of a new epidemic or a major new > >conflict. > > > >To conclude, the Millennium Forum Declaration seeks to articulate the > >hopes and aspirations of the peoples of the world. As its opening > >paragraphs state: > > > >"Our vision is of a world that is human-centered and genuinely > >democratic, where all human beings are full participants and > >determine their own destinies. In our vision we are one human family, > >in all our diversity, living on one common homeland and sharing a > >just, sustainable and peaceful world, guided by universal principles > >of democracy, equality, inclusion, voluntarism, non-discrimination > >and participation by all persons.." > > > >Thank you for your attention. > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 8:10 PM To: Juan Cole Subject: bahai - Re: [MFDiscuss] Statement of the Millennium Forum to Millennium Summit FYI ----- Original Message ----- From: "" To: Millennium Forum Discussion Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 6:21 PM Subject: Re: [MFDiscuss] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium Summit > Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, > observes in the conclusion of his book Modernity and the Millennium > (Columbia University Press, 1998): > > "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers > increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural > literalism, patriarchy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and > denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-century > Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a > minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed" > (196). > > Cole himself and many others have suffered at the hands of Baha'i > fundamentalists who hide behind putatively liberal activities, > such as at the United Nations: > > "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the > community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and > antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of > prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement" > Cole (201). > > These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on > talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai on Usenet for impartial viewers > to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever > forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. Both my and Cole's > Bahai websites provide essential documentation along these lines. > > It should be noted that the Universal House of Justice has actively worked > through the BCCA (Bahai Computer and Communications Association) to suppress > all links to websites with other than its own "comprehensive" point of view > on such major portals as Yahoo.com, Excite.com, and other search engines. > The UHJ has gone even further by advising Bahais to remove any link > whatsoever to Professor Cole's website. See his comments along these lines: > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm > And his article The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the > manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions > and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while > pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. > > I find it distressing that this forum is being used for such purposes with > an uninformed audience. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > > > >From: brad@oc.mv.com > >To: MFNews@egroups.com > >Subject: [MFNews] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium > >Summit > >Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:55:09 -0000 > > > > > >It has been requested that we post the full statement of Millennium > >Forum Co-Chair Techeste Ahderom to this group. It follows: > > > >THE MILLENNIUM SUMMIT > > > >8 September 2000 > > > > > >Afternoon Plenary -- Friday, 8 September 2000 > > > >Statement of Techeste Ahderom > >Co-Chair, The Millennium Forum > > > > > > > >Madam and Mr. Co-Chairs, Distinguished Heads of State and Government, > >Mr. Secretary-General, Excellencies, > > > > > >Last May, representatives of civil society and non-governmental > >organizations from all over the world gathered in this great hall to > >consult about humanity's common future and, particularly, about > >the > >role of the United Nations in the 21st Century. > > > >The meeting was called the Millennium Forum, and, in light of the > >wide ranging concerns of its participants, the geographic reach they > >embodied -- including broad representation from developing countries - > >- and the depth and breath of the organizations they represented, it > >was one of the most diverse -- and significant -- gatherings of civil > >society organizations ever held. > > > >The Forum was significant for its attempt to accelerate the process > >among NGOs of networking and coalition building across issue areas > >that has proved to be such a powerful force for change and social > >action in today's world. The issues we considered included how to > >establish a just and lasting peace; how to eradicate poverty; how to > >set humanity on a path of sustainable development while protecting > >our shared environment; how to see that human rights everywhere are > >upheld -- at all times, by all nations; and how to face up to the > >urgent challenges of globalization. > > > >In the end, despite our great diversity, we successfully agreed on a > >powerfully worded "Declaration and Agenda for Action." It offers > >a > >bold vision for humanity's future and outlines a series of concrete > >steps that the United Nations, governments, and members of civil > >society themselves can take to address the global problems facing > >humanity today. > > > >After hearing your speeches here over the last three days, I must say > >that our vision and plan of action are consonant with much of what > >has been said here. > > > >I am personally heartened by this and feel that this historic Summit > >may well be remembered as having opened the door to a long-awaited > >era of peace, justice and prosperity for all humanity. This new era > >will, of course, require concrete deeds and not just words. > > > >We in civil society stand ready to work with you and your > >governments, side by side, in a strong new partnership to create this > >new world. At the same time, civil society also stands ready to hold > >you to your commitments if you do not deliver on your words. > > > >Throughout history, from the abolition of slavery to the recognition > >of the equality of women and men, most great social movements have > >begun not with governments but with ordinary people. > > > >Even the idea of creating an international organization to end war > >and establish a permanent peace originated with civil society. Before > >the outbreak of the First World War, the leaders of a number of > >international NGOs argued for the establishment of a "Commonwealth of > >Nations" or "League of Nations" in which all states would band > >together in collective security. These same organizations actively > >supported the work of the League of Nations in the late 1920's. > > > >In 1945, civil society again played an important role in shaping many > >of the key articles found in the Charter of the United Nations, > >especially in the area of human rights. > > > >More recently, NGOs have played a leading role in shaping and > >supporting an International Criminal Court, in the movement for debt > >cancellation, and in the International Campaign to Ban Landmines. > >Likewise, NGOs have led in creating such partnerships with the UN and > >governments as with the NGO Steering Committee for the Commission on > >Sustainable Development. > > > >On a number of occasions, Secretary General Kofi Annan has said that > >civil society participation in and partnership with the United > >Nations is not an "option," but a "necessity." > > > >We appreciate his efforts to facilitate effective partnership with > >civil society at the United Nations. We thank him especially for > >opening the UN to the Millennium Forum last May. As many of you know, > >the idea for our Forum essentially originated with Mr. Annan some > >three years ago when he called for a "companion People's Assembly" to > >this Summit. And we thank Mr. Annan for making the Millennium Forum > >Declaration available to this Summit as a UN document. > > > >The Millennium Forum itself grew out of long-established NGO > >committees and networks. Planning began with the Conference on Non- > >Governmental Organizations (CONGO), and included the UN DPI/NGO > >Executive Committee. We sought to build upon an impressive series of > >global NGO gatherings held last year, such as the Hague Appeal for > >Peace, the Seoul International Conference of NGOs, World Civil > >Society Conference, and the Young People's Millennium Assembly, > >as > >well as all of the great global NGO forums held in parallel with the > >major United Nations conferences of the last decade, including Earth > >Summit, the Beijing Women's Conference, and the Social Summit, among > >others. > > > >We ask that you review carefully our Millennium Forum Declaration. I > >think you'll find that, for the most part, we are simply calling on > >governments to live up to the commitments and the principles that > >they agreed to in the great global conferences of the 1990s. We are > >also seeking increased NGO access to the UN General Assembly and its > >main committees. > > > >Allow me to give you a few highlights of what the Forum called for in > >its Declaration. > > > >The Forum's participants believe that, when a billion people go > >to > >bed hungry, it is a gross violation of human rights. The Declaration > >calls for immediate debt cancellation. It also calls for a > >"Global > >Poverty Eradication Fund," aimed at offering the poor access to > >credit. > > > >On globalization, the Forum took the view that, while it > >offers "significant opportunities for people to connect, share > >and > >learn from each other," in its currently unregulated form it > >increases "inequities between and within countries, undermines > >local > >traditions and cultures, and escalates disparities between rich and > >poor, thereby marginalizing large numbers of people in urban and > >rural areas." > > > >The Declaration urges governments to make serious "commitments to > >restructure the global financial architecture based on principles of > >equity, transparency, accountability, and democracy.," > >stating > >clearly that the United Nations should be the preeminent > >international organization overseeing the World Bank, the IMF and the > >WTO. > > > >The Declaration also calls for a greatly strengthened and > >democratized United Nations, the most important global institution in > >the world today -- and the only one currently capable of providing > >the international framework and coordination needed to address the > >critical challenges ahead. > > > >Specifically, the Forum called for a strengthened peacekeeping > >regime, with the establishment of permanent police and peacekeeping > >forces. It also calls for a reformed Security Council, invigorated > >through an enlarged membership, more democratic procedures, and > >eventual elimination of the veto. It also urges the formulation of a > >draft proposal for global disarmament, to be discussed in a Special > >Session of the General Assembly. > > > >In this day of global interdependence, a much strengthened United > >Nations is our best protection against global calamity, be it > >economic, environmental, the spread of a new epidemic or a major new > >conflict. > > > >To conclude, the Millennium Forum Declaration seeks to articulate the > >hopes and aspirations of the peoples of the world. As its opening > >paragraphs state: > > > >"Our vision is of a world that is human-centered and genuinely > >democratic, where all human beings are full participants and > >determine their own destinies. In our vision we are one human family, > >in all our diversity, living on one common homeland and sharing a > >just, sustainable and peaceful world, guided by universal principles > >of democracy, equality, inclusion, voluntarism, non-discrimination > >and participation by all persons.." > > > >Thank you for your attention. > > > ---------- From: Bob Bogen[SMTP:bobbogen@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 3:17 AM To: MFDiscuss@egroups.com Subject: Re: [MFDiscuss] Digest Number 55 -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor -------------------------~-~> eLerts It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free! https://click.egroups.com/1/9068/6/_/_/_/969005854/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> Frederick Glaysher has raised a very thoughtful and serious, if very general, concern in regard to the report on the Millennial Forum to the Millennium Summit. Until now I recall no other serious substantive Forum question on this discussion group other than the two I raised. I do recall seconding Glaysher's distress at the swamping preemption of the MF Discussion Group by a LETS spokesman. The clear implication of Glaysher's report is that the Millennium Forum Secretariat offered by the Baha'i office in New York and/or its staff introduced some substantial bias or other unfortunate impact on the Declaration or perhaps on the entire process. I have not yet had an opportunity to follow up Glaysher's references about the Baha'i internal criticisms, but unless the generalized concern can be related to some specific portions of the Declaration, at least as examples, or specific problems in the Forum process as a whole, the concern may reasonably be put down as a reflection of an internal dispute within the Baha'i community. The referenced report to the Millennium Summit did tone down the severe demands for changes in the Security Council stated in the Declaration and as questioned by my earlier posting on this site. However I did not find the slightest reference, which I understood was promised, to the right of shelter in the report to the Millennium Summit. Basic human rights for food, safe water, shelter, education and health are resisted in current UN discussions by some nation states. But my professional collegues in architecture and planning had gotten approval for insertion of the shelter right by the Declaration drafting committee. I am willing to believe the loss of that language in the final version of the Declaration was inadvertent. However we provided very clear documentation, including the initialing of the right to shelter language by the drafting committee Reporteur and a tape recording of the presentation by the drafting committee mentioning the shelter right in the final Plenary session of the Forum, which session approved the Declaration....all to no avail. Even so it is not clear to me that this is a case of the bias Glaysher has in mind. It does seem appropriate that some better examples, or a pattern of probable examples, should be identified if the serious assertions are to stand. Bob K. Bogen, Representative of the US Board of Directors for Architects/Designers/Planners for Social Responsibility _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at https://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at https://profiles.msn.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: MFDiscuss-unsubscribe@egroups.com ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 7:11 AM Subject: Re: bahai.us.com & the Olympics Brave New World: "Beginning with our December issue Brave New World is to go into print and be circulated to households throughout the civilised world. This breakthrough has been made possible by our acquisition, by means that are best not talked about, of the mailing addresses of Baha'is in the United States, Canada, Australia and the United Kingdom." Assuming this assertion is serious (always a big assumption with Brave New World!), I'd appreciate it if you would include my website name & URL in your mass mailing: The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "The Texas Brigade, under the command of Colonel Doctor Maniac...." :-) LOVE your sense of humor.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm wrote in message news:8psg5a$tpp$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > You can put the flowers and chocolates away: it's okay - we do it for > the love of it! > > Yes boys and girls, the Brave New World Team have put forward yet > ANOTHER special September edition - just in time to celebrate the world- > uniting event being held in 'Sideney' Australia... THE OLYMPICS! > > Here's the now infamous URL again: > https://www.bahai.us.com/ > > This month's inside gossip (sorry ... news) includes: > *Gender test for House members > *Baha'i community new 'Survivor' location > *Brave New World goes for Review > *ARB/TRB latest war news > > As well as brand new segments: > *Soapbox > *Competition Time > *Part One (for those who missed it on the newsgroups) of Michael > McKenny's "Nostalgic Moscow" > > Not only that but you can get your own back on the AO with "Hendi's > Horror" - have fun being the little birdy that sits on Big Al's > shoulder. > > https://www.bahai.us.com/ > > What Ho! > Al Marbig > *Not to be confused with a certain lovely lady who got excommunicated > (sorry ... removed from the rolls). > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 7:53 AM Subject: [ bahai ] Why I don't respond to fundamentalists After over four years of observing their tactics, I've learnt a few things about the way they operate: 1. Always smear and attack the individual. 2. Lure into supposed discussion then cut the jugular. 3. Work together to create the perception for non-bahais that the individual is unbalanced, aberrant, etc.... 4. Change or ignore the subject. Finally, it's simple a waste of time and energy, as long as the uhj uses "review" to suppress all free thought and discussion. Further details at "The Bahai Technique": https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 7:59 AM Subject: Re: bahai.us.com & the Olympics Considering including too, if you would, the content description: The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience. Documenting censorship and suppression of free speech and conscience within the Baha'i Faith. https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm Thanks. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Patrick Henry" wrote in message news:lynw5.47671$QW4.549338@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > Brave New World: > "Beginning with our December issue Brave New World is to go into print and > be circulated to households throughout the civilised world. This > breakthrough has been made possible by our acquisition, by means that are > best not talked about, of the mailing addresses of Baha'is in the United > States, Canada, Australia and the United Kingdom." > > Assuming this assertion is serious (always a big assumption > with Brave New World!), I'd appreciate it if you would include > my website name & URL in your mass mailing: > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > "The Texas Brigade, under the command of Colonel > Doctor Maniac...." :-) LOVE your sense of humor.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > > > wrote in message news:8psg5a$tpp$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > You can put the flowers and chocolates away: it's okay - we do it for > > the love of it! > > > > Yes boys and girls, the Brave New World Team have put forward yet > > ANOTHER special September edition - just in time to celebrate the world- > > uniting event being held in 'Sideney' Australia... THE OLYMPICS! > > > > Here's the now infamous URL again: > > https://www.bahai.us.com/ > > > > This month's inside gossip (sorry ... news) includes: > > *Gender test for House members > > *Baha'i community new 'Survivor' location > > *Brave New World goes for Review > > *ARB/TRB latest war news > > > > As well as brand new segments: > > *Soapbox > > *Competition Time > > *Part One (for those who missed it on the newsgroups) of Michael > > McKenny's "Nostalgic Moscow" > > > > Not only that but you can get your own back on the AO with "Hendi's > > Horror" - have fun being the little birdy that sits on Big Al's > > shoulder. > > > > https://www.bahai.us.com/ > > > > What Ho! > > Al Marbig > > *Not to be confused with a certain lovely lady who got excommunicated > > (sorry ... removed from the rolls). > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2000 7:56 AM Subject: Re: History, Theology and Quantum Mechanics "Juan Cole" wrote in message news:8pv4e9$t5n$1@nnrp1.deja.com... The > American Historical Review says some will call me an "apologist" > for "religion" because of this book and notes that I say Baha'u'llah > insisted that secular democracy was not enough but that a transcendent > dimension was necessary in building a healthy society. These reviewers > would be astonished that I was being denounced by the Baha'i Right for > having capitulated to materialism and dressed Baha'u'llah up as a > Persian Rousseau. I am astonished, as well. It is astonishing. Yet that's the level of ignorance that the right wing operates on under its nine ayatollahs.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2000 11:19 AM Subject: Re: REVISED - bahai - Bullying Attacks You're entitled to your views. I to mine. And in my opinion my comments are relevant to the newsgroups I post to. Your constant vulgarity is disgraceful. Shame on you. This is the first and last time I shall be responding to you. Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "dltjxx" wrote in message news:8q018p$p8h$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net... > Would you mind not crossposting your crap? > > writes: > > > >All the more pertinent after Susan Maneck's reprehensible attack > >on Professor Juan Cole during late August to September 2000. > > [snip crap] ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2000 11:33 AM Subject: Re: Robert Fisk & Sabra and Chatilla. Let me share a few poems that attempt to touch somewhat on Sabra and Chatilla: Into the Ruins I Smoke curls above the ruins of Lebanon that smother the bodies of those who had hoped for peace. Behind broken walls broken men and women seek refuge from a Fury that stalks them as relentlessly as destiny. I lie in bed looking into the dark and see nothing but the vaguest fancies mankind has ever dreamt. Somewhere behind a broken wall something begins to move, to assume a shape met somewhere once before. Out from the ruins he steps and stands amid the scintillating dark, waiting quietly. *** V Seen through smoke, past five-month-old rotting bodies, Muslim militiamen brandish from a jeep jawless Christian skulls on cudgels, wave them with glee to taunt those who butchered old women and children now dried to ash by the Lebanese sun. We move past withered remains and out of the broken building. And those sockets that once knew life, that saw the One Sun rise and set, rise and set, stare back. I stumble down the hill as one lost in blindness stumbles through darkness. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "joseph hobeika" wrote in message news:39C385FA.D3BDAC4@attglobal.net... > I don't know what REALLY happened here, but believe that Cobra's account > of the 1982 events attempts to "whitewash" Sharon. If his men, > stationed at the outskirts of the camps, could hear the cries of "bloody > murder," why didn't they intervene? Israel, as an occupying power, > remains STRICTLY LIABLE for what happened in the areas under its control > --per the Fourth Geneva Convention. Period. > > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 8:49 AM Subject: Re: REVISED - bahai - Bullying Attacks "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000916232334.20177.00001420@ng-md1.aol.com... > >You can find his number at > >https://homes.hypermart.net/. > > Interesting that someone with a PhD in English is selling Real Estate. https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 6:00 AM Subject: Re: Justice There are none. See the links below: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/UHJ2.htm https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/UHJ1.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm wrote in message news:8q4agq$e3s$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > What are the processes to provide justice within the Baha'i community? > > Curious. > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 7:13 AM Subject: Re: REVISED - bahai - Bullying Attacks "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000918021653.29037.00003895@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >> > >> Interesting that someone with a PhD in English is selling Real Estate. > > > >https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm > > Fred's bio reads: > > "After experiencing the shock in 1994 of US colleagues defending >communism in a seminar at Beijing University, and witnessing that >evening an impoverished peasant, in the street, washing the rags he >had to wear as clothes, he grew increasingly disaffected with >academic literary culture, especially the Marxist antics of deconstruction, >resigning from university teaching in 1996 and began a successful >career in real estate, with Century 21 Associates, having now sold > over ten million dollars worth of property." > > Ahh, now I get. Having witnessed utter impoverishment of China and the > hypocrisy of academia, he decided to fully embrace the virtues of >capitalism. > > Hope you're enjoying it Fred! Like so many bahais and academicians, you have such a shallow mind.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 7:02 AM Subject: Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Think carefully about the way things stand today in the bahai faith: One has to *ask* for one's "rights"; one has to ask people who have no sense of justice for justice.... Gee, it's obvious Cathy Freeman just isn't a very good bahai.... And definitely not the type of prominent "person of capacity" the uhj wants.... Lackies only.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qcfnf$1cj$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <20000921003218.08907.00000121@ng-fi1.aol.com>, > smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > >Anyway, the initial point stands, and attracting and > > >_keeping_ "people of capacity" (even when they're atheletes) should > be a > > >consistent policy followed throughout. > > > > I have to echo, Pat's sentiment. Do we give special treatment to > famous > > atheletes you should get special treatment in relationship to Baha'i > law? > > > > As to the question as to why her rights haven't yet been restored, > did she ask > > for them? > > Given the less than liberating performance of the Baha'i AO, maybe she > doesn't want them back. Maybe being a Baha'i is less important to her > than is her own integrity. > > > > > > warmest, Susan ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:12 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: Administrative Rights in the Baha'i Faith What bahai would want such deceitful "rights." I sure as hell don't. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qf95q$ae1$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article , > Chris Manvell wrote: > > On talk.religion.bahai, Saman Ahmadi (mailto:saman@ticnet.com) wrote: > > > > > > > > >As far as I know, when person loses his/her administrative rights, > > >it is usually because of a certain behavior - stealing money > > >in the guise of a legtimate business, for example. Once the > > >person corrects his/her behavior, it is up to the person to > > >request that his/her rights be restored. > > > > Dear Saman, > > > > That is correct. > > > > There is a lot of misinformation about the losing of admin rights, > > misinformation that can lead to unnecessary hurt. > > > > If a person blatantly breaks the laws of Baha'u'llah (frequent > examples > > are adultery, alcohol abuse, political activism > > > Political activism. Sure looks like one of Freeman's sins. > > From, www.abc.net.au/ 1999 > > Cathy Freeman > > > Cathy Freeman is the colossus of Australian athletics. Others in the > team have legitimate medal hopes, but none burn as bright as Freeman’s. > > Twice she has been world champion over 400 metres. In 1996 in Atlanta > she won an Olympic silver medal behind the great Frenchwoman Marie-Jose > Perec. > > And yet there is so much more to admire about Freeman than her ability > over 400 metres. > > She is humble, self-effacing, charming, effervescent, engaging, funny. > She also accepts her position as a role model - for both Aboriginal and > non-Aboriginal people alike - with pride and dignity. > > For someone so young - she will be 27 when the Sydney Games begin - she > has shown an amazing ability to soak up pressure. > > At 16 Freeman won a Commonwealth Games gold medal as part of the 4x100 > metres relay team. The same year - 1990 - she was named Young > Australian of the Year, the following year she became Aboriginal > Athlete of the Year. > > The spotlight has shone ever brighter since, and there have been times > when she has been burned. > > Like in 1994, when a proud Freeman paraded both the Australian and the > Aboriginal flags around the stadium in Victoria after her wins in the > 200m and 400m events. > > For Freeman, it was the act of a patriotic Australian and a proud > Aborigine. But that’s not how it was seen by some in officialdom, > Arthur Tunstall most famously among them. > > To an extent, this polarised Freeman in the minds of Australians, but > even more than that, it raised her profile through the roof. Everyone > knew who Cathy Freeman was. > > > > From, app.com.au/ 18 July 2000 > > Freeman joins 'stolen' debate Cathy Freeman > > ABORIGINAL leaders applauded sprint champion Cathy Freeman for speaking > out about the stolen children yesterday and said the comments would > strengthen her bid to win Olympic gold. > > Freeman has spoken for the first time about her family's pain over the > stolen generation and accused the Government of insensitivity for > refusing to apologise. > > "I was so angry because they were denying they had done anything wrong, > denying that a whole generation was stolen," she told Britain's Sunday > Telegraph. > > "The fact is, parts of people's lives were taken away, they were > stolen. I'll never know who my grandfather was, I didn't know who my > great-grandmother was, and that can never be replaced." > > Aboriginal leaders across Australia said they hoped the comments would > put new pressure on the Government to apologise for the policy of > forced removal, which continued into the 1960s. > > But they said Freeman should put the issue behind her and concentrate > on winning gold in the 400m in Sydney. > > Activist Mr Charles Perkins said Freeman's comments would give her > added strength. > > "I don't think it will affect her performance — it will make her focus > even more strongly on the Olympics," Mr Perkins said. > > Former chairman of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission > Ms Lowitja O'Donoghue, who is head of the Olympics National Indigenous > Advisory Committee, said Freeman's comments would help the debate about > the stolen children. > > "We welcome the statement but I'd like to say she ought not to be > pressured in relation to political statements at this time of her > preparation for the Games," Ms O'Donoghue said. > > > > From, foxsports.com--Jul 31, 2000 4:31 a.m. ET > > Running for office > Politicians race to enlist Cathy Freeman > > by Associated Press > > SYDNEY, Australia — Australian politicians are racing to enlist Cathy > Freeman after the world champion runner revealed an interest in > pursuing a career in government. > Freeman, a silver medalist in 400 meters at the 1996 Atlanta Olympics > and Australia's top hope for a medal on the track at the upcoming > Sydney Games, is keen to campaign on indigenous issues. > > After winning the 400 Saturday at the Bislett Games in Oslo, Norway, > the 27-year-old Aboriginal sprinter told reporters she is becoming more > aware of her political power. > > "Maybe one day when I can channel all my energies into changing the > state of politics back home, I'll do it," she was as quoted saying in > Sydney's Sunday Telegraph. > > "I'd definitely take on that role of taking a stand on issues, like the > government saying it's giving an apology or acknowledging indigenous > history a bit more." > > Australian Labor Party leader Kim Beazley invited Freeman to meet with > him after the Olympics, when she will try to become the first > Australian Aborigine to win an individual Olympic gold. > > "I don't know what her preferences are in that regard," Beazley, leader > of the federal opposition, told Channel Nine TV. > > "I think she'd be a very good politician, she'd have something to > offer." > > Democrat Aden Ridgeway, Australia's only indigenous senator, said he'd > endorse Freeman. > > "I think Cathy has already displayed certain values in terms of > perseverance and stamina in relation to athletics — and they are > transferable to politics," Ridgeway said. > > But he said Freeman should concentrate on the Olympics first and push > the reconciliation cause by doing a lap of honor brandishing both the > national and Aboriginal flags, as she did at the 1997 World > Championships in Athens, Greece. She defended that title last year in > Seville, Spain. > > Earlier this month, Aboriginal leaders lauded Freeman for speaking out > about the "stolen generation" of Aborigines and the hardship felt by > many families. > > Freeman, who is training in London in the buildup to the Olympics, told > British media that her family had been effected by previous policies of > Australian governments concerning Aborigines. > > The policy of the forced removal of Aboriginal children from their > families continued into the 1960s. John Howard's Liberal government has > refused to apologize, saying it cannot be responsible for the practices > of previous governments. > > "I was so angry because they were denying they had done anything wrong, > denying that a whole generation was stolen," Freeman said. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:13 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: Administrative Rights in the Baha'i Faith What absurd dishonesty. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000922140907.26686.00000440@ng-ch1.aol.com... > >As far as I know, when person loses his/her administrative rights, > >it is usually because of a certain behavior - stealing money > >in the guise of a legtimate business, for example. > > Dear Saman, > > In the West most Baha'is who lose their administrative rights do so because of > failure to follow Baha'i law requiring parental consent before marriage. > > warmest, Susan ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:14 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: Administrative Rights in the Baha'i Faith You're one of the worst.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qgbdn$k5s$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Martin Luther King. > > > > Can we please drop this subject - if a person feels that he/she *must* > > know > > why a Baha'i has lost her administrative rights, he/she can contact > the > > National Spiritual Assembly of that country and ask. > > And you'll be told the reasons? Goodness. So what then is the problem > if the NSA will tell the reasons. You are a BIGS, let us set this to > rest. Ask the OZ NSA why. > > > > > > -saman > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:15 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: Administrative Rights in the Baha'i Faith Now a shred of integrity.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qgujh$aov$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8qgo74$3ht$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > rlittle95@my-deja.com wrote: > > Mr. Burrill > > > > You seem to have an inordinate interest in the personal life of an > > attractive young woman whom you have not met. > > I could not give a rat's ass about her personal life, but it certainly > seems that the Baha'i prelacy is overly concerned about it, and it > seems you poor Baha'i are doing your best from keeping the prelacy from > looking bad, but it is far too late for that, Mr Little. > > > > Since you consider that > > asking questions of a highly personal nature constitute appropriate > > behavior, why don't you relate to your readers some details of your > own > > personal life, details similar in nature to the ones you are seeking? > > What would you like to know? > > > > > > Hmm, since this is a Baha'i newsgroup, you'd have to post them in > > another newsgroup though. Well, just go ahead and do it, and let us > > know where to look. > > Cute, but no cigar. > > > > > Robert A. Little > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:17 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: Administrative Rights in the Baha'i Faith "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qhk07$1gr$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > >A bahai lacky said: > > You can relax your sphincter, Mr. Burrill, and you probably should do > so> > before you give yourself even greater health problems than you already> > suffer. > Bruce responded: > Ah, we finally hear from merde-man shout, who tries to make a funny, > though nightsoil is his what he is best at. But then merde man is > correct, all I know about "Baha'i" Cathy Freeman is that she is a > Baha'i who is not in good standing with the prelacy for either co- > habiting with her husband to be, and/or possibily her rather strong > political advocacy, a rather un-Baha'i-ish thing. But since she is in > violation of some Baha'i rule or other leading to official sanction, > then she not some one Baha'is can point to with puffed up chests. She > is no longer a BIGS. > > The fact that merde man shout has no tone in spincter does not mean we > all must follow his lead. Obviously, only persons who can be used may apply.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:19 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! I realize you're being sarcastic.... Doug Martin, official uhj Inquisitor, is my guess.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:8pudkn$l4g$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > Aboriginal Baha'i and OZ's great track athelete, Kathy Freeman, lights the > Olympic torch! Now someone explain for me who the Einstein was in the AO who > took her administrative rights away?! > > cheers, > Nima > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:20 AM Subject: Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Apologists, Nima. Why bother with them? -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:8pvs8o$4ck$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > It's "Nima" and nope, no email. > > cheers, > Nima > > > wrote in message news:8pvb6e$4k5$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > Mina > > > > Would you please tell me whether or not you received an email from me > > within the last 24 hours? > > > > Robert A. Little > > > > In article <8pudkn$l4g$1@gnamma.connect.com.au>, > > "Nima Hazini" wrote: > > > Aboriginal Baha'i and OZ's great track athelete, Kathy Freeman, > > lights the > > > Olympic torch! Now someone explain for me who the Einstein was in the > > AO who > > > took her administrative rights away?! > > > > > > cheers, > > > Nima > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:21 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! They're watching and counting Shaking their fists, so you better be nice.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8q1l20$ids$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8q1kpa$ibb$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > rlittle95@my-deja.com wrote: > > Dear Nima > > > > Ok. Temperature is going down. I had written you about this very > > subject, and had asked you to reply privately, as I felt she has a > > right to privacy, and did not want her name up in lights, as has > > happened. Well, sorta. Is the email address you show correct? I don't > > recall getting it bounced back. > > > > She has received great attention these last two days here, all of it > > glowing. I hope the participants here follow that lead. > > > > Robert > > > Oh, good grief. Your concern here is not with Freeman, but with the > possible bad press for the silly Baha'i AO sin-keepers. > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:22 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! It's meaningless as can be when the house of injustice is involved.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Maryam Rachel" wrote in message news:39c553e9.1277002@news.mel.ihug.com.au... > Actually the names of Baha'is who have had their voting rights removed > are already made public in national Baha'i publications (where it > would be more of a 'shocker' if you will, than here on the newsgroups > where absolutely nothing seems to be left unsaid *g*.) At anyrate, I > remember at the time Cathy Freeman was at Uni the local Baha'i Society > were advised (by the overseeing LSA) not to seek out contact with her, > which at the time I admit I thought was a touch strange (given that > Baha'is generally love to know the other odd soul floating around they > can bump into) but at the time I put it down to her not really wanting > 'groupies' come up and say "heyyy.... you know that religion you > belong to..." (*said a bit tongue in cheek*). Whether or not it had > happened already (losing her VR) I don't know - but it may have been > because of this reason. > > MR ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:23 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Hard to say who the worst is.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8q3q4h$sb2$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8q3e9s01adg@enews2.newsguy.com>, > "Adelard R" wrote: > > > > Until when are you going to reduce your insults? > > When you going away, goofus/doofus/dorkus. > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:24 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! "bilious venting" - that's a good way to describe "bahai love." -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qeq2f$1od$1@grandprime.binc.net... > > wrote in message news:8q572j$dqp$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > His presence here has purpose. His motives fit with the purpose of > > this forum. You on the other hand are just here to bully and harass. > > You jump over rumors and inuendo as if it were hard fact just to vomit > > your poison on people who are just trying to talk about issues. > > > > Sheesh > > "Sheesh?" Hardly appropriate for such a bilious venting. The problem is, > David, you are so very afraid of what you hear. I was hoping on your vaction > that you would have addressed this. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:25 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Fascists are always fearful of getting caught, someone, anyone, standing up to their treachery.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qgarh$jdr$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8qfpua$tnt$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > > Show your doctorate in psychology that makes you able to assess my > > mental state. > > The point is, Dave/Dude, is that spill your mental state all over the > place. Anger, which you readily displasy when challenged, is a > secondary emotion, most often kickied by fear, and in the context of > your displays of your all too frequent anger, it is when your beliefs > are being challenged. The fear under the anger in your case is quite > obvious. > > > > > > > Hmmm ... That's what I thought. Don't have that kind of expertise do > > you? > > Actually, I have worked a number of years with psych patients, enough > to recognize the fear behind anger. > > > > > > > Bruce, I am not affraid of you, your ideas, or your false accusations. > > You are very good at mind games and pissing matches though. > > You always accuse others of mind games when they are able to present a > position trhat differs from and challenges your. It was your favorite > dodge for refusing to discuss anything about Buddhism with me. Mind > games, so you would say, but fear is what you broadcast. > > > > > > Gotta give you that one. > > > > My vacation did do one thing for me - it reaffirmed my belief that > > Baha'u'llah truly is the Voice of God for the age in which we live. > > That's nice, but why then are you so fearful? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Dave > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:25 AM Subject: Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! I think you're right.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8q3qbk$sdt$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8q3ptv$rq2$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > > In article <8q1l20$ids$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > Bruce wrote: > > > > > Oh, good grief. Your concern here is not with Freeman, but with the > > > possible bad press for the silly Baha'i AO sin-keepers. > > > > Bruce, > > > > You are so wrong on this one. > > The Baha'i sin-keepers seem to have determine that she is not able to > fully participate as a Baha'i. Too bad. Baha'i's loss. > > > > > Look > > if you just want more ammo in you Jihad to end the Baha'i Faith > > End the Baha'i Faith? Fundies like you and Adelardo and the reactionary > AO will do that all by yourselves. > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:27 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! "you also seem to > hold to a rather rigid view of the supremacy and inerrancy of Baha'i which > puts you into a fundie bucket. > And I think most people should be able to guess what that bucket is full of.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qeqfg$1vd$1@grandprime.binc.net... > > wrote in message news:8q56pe$dlr$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > In article <8q3qbk$sdt$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > Bruce wrote: > > > In article <8q3ptv$rq2$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > In article <8q1l20$ids$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > > > Bruce wrote: > > > > > > > > > Oh, good grief. Your concern here is not with Freeman, but with > > the > > > > > possible bad press for the silly Baha'i AO sin-keepers. > > > > > > > > Bruce, > > > > > > > > You are so wrong on this one. > > > > > > The Baha'i sin-keepers seem to have determine that she is not able to > > > fully participate as a Baha'i. Too bad. Baha'i's loss. > > > > > > And how do you know its too bad? Do you know the details of the > > situation? You assume. You love to assume becasue it suits your > > desire to throw mud. > > Throw mud? Naw. > > > > > > Budhists do the exact same thing. Their are rules and those who break > > the rules pay the penalty. How many monks have been defrocked in > > Thailand recently? > > You tell me how many. But the comparison is not equal. Baha'i supposedly has > not clergy, so the equivalent would be how many Buddhist lay persons have > been denied access to a temple for co-habiting. > > > > Don't play inocent while distorting a situation you > > know nothing about to your already twisted and biased view of the > > Baha'i Faith. > > Of course my view of Baha'i is biased and twisted, for it does not agree > with yours, the correct, pure view. > > > > > > > > > > > Look > > > > if you just want more ammo in you Jihad to end the Baha'i Faith > > > > > > End the Baha'i Faith? Fundies like you and Adelardo and the > > > reactionary AO will do that all by yourselves. > > > > I have yet to have you actuall show that I am a "fundie" as you put > > it. As I said in one of my recent posts to you I have opinions that do > > not fit nicely into any of the buckets you invent. > > You certainly do have a number view about some things, but you also seem to > hold to a rather rigid view of the supremacy and inerrancy of Baha'i which > puts you into a fundie bucket. > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:28 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: SYMBOL OF RECONCILIATION LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Yawn.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Vahid Salsabil" wrote in message news:39CB2092.D4E3C383@yahoo.com... > > > Bruce wrote: > > > wrote in message news:8q56pe$dlr$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > In article <8q3qbk$sdt$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > > Bruce wrote: > > > > In article <8q3ptv$rq2$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > > > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > > In article <8q1l20$ids$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > > > > Bruce wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, good grief. Your concern here is not with Freeman, > > > > > > but with the possible bad press for the > > > > > > silly Baha'i AO sin-keepers. > > My concern is this: I am not aware of Cathy Freeman declaring > her Bahai affiliation(?) or estrangement(?), she certainly has kept > it such pretty quiet over the years. > > If she has not chosen to make her faith, lack of it, or indifference, > an issue for public speculation, why do others? > > As to her private life, I suppose she runs the same risks of > intrusion and scrutiny that any famous celebrity runs, > and I have the same lack of interest in celebrity gossip > as I always do. > > But she is a great young athlete. A champion for both > indigenous and non-indigenous Australians. > > Australia, like many other nations, has a great spiritual > wound in its past, and the choice of Cathy Freeman, and > the inclusion of indiginous participants in the opening > ceremony, the largest corroboree in history, was a > particularly significant event on the path to healing. > > So.. I don't care how Bahia's and non-Bahais want to > hammer out their differences, but I would ask, given > that Cathy has not made a big issue of her faith, > or possible estrangement(?) from it.. given that she > is easily the target of resentful racists and xenophobes > in this country... how about leaving her out of your > shitfight, from either side? > > Loyal Bahai's can try and build something truly attractive to > people, and not rely on reflected celebrity.. > > And the critics can rip into the Administration for its actions > in the abstract.. if the problems under discussion are endemic > you don't need a particular person as whipping horse. > > This will probably fall on deaf ears.. > > but then.. more people will be watching and cheering Cathy > than reading this NG anyway.. ;-) > > GO CATHY! > > "Changing the world... 400m at a time!" > > > > > > > > > > > Bruce, > > > > > > > > > > You are so wrong on this one. > > > > > > > > The Baha'i sin-keepers seem to have determine that she is not able to > > > > fully participate as a Baha'i. Too bad. Baha'i's loss. > > > > > > > > > And how do you know its too bad? Do you know the details of the > > > situation? You assume. You love to assume becasue it suits your > > > desire to throw mud. > > > > Throw mud? Naw. > > > > > > > > Budhists do the exact same thing. Their are rules and those who break > > > the rules pay the penalty. How many monks have been defrocked in > > > Thailand recently? > > > > You tell me how many. But the comparison is not equal. Baha'i supposedly has > > not clergy, so the equivalent would be how many Buddhist lay persons have > > been denied access to a temple for co-habiting. > > > > Don't play inocent while distorting a situation you > > > know nothing about to your already twisted and biased view of the > > > Baha'i Faith. > > > > Of course my view of Baha'i is biased and twisted, for it does not agree > > with yours, the correct, pure view. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Look > > > > > if you just want more ammo in you Jihad to end the Baha'i Faith > > > > > > > > End the Baha'i Faith? Fundies like you and Adelardo and the > > > > reactionary AO will do that all by yourselves. > > > > > > I have yet to have you actuall show that I am a "fundie" as you put > > > it. As I said in one of my recent posts to you I have opinions that do > > > not fit nicely into any of the buckets you invent. > > > > You certainly do have a number view about some things, but you also seem to > > hold to a rather rigid view of the supremacy and inerrancy of Baha'i which > > puts you into a fundie bucket. > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:28 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: SYMBOL OF RECONCILIATION LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! They've might as well have taken a whip to her soul.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qf7sv$95v$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <39CB2092.D4E3C383@yahoo.com>, > Vahid Salsabil wrote: > > > > > > Bruce wrote: > > > > > wrote in message > news:8q56pe$dlr$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > > In article <8q3qbk$sdt$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > > > Bruce wrote: > > > > > In article <8q3ptv$rq2$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > > > > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > > > In article <8q1l20$ids$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > > > > > Bruce wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, good grief. Your concern here is not with Freeman, > > > > > > > but with the possible bad press for the > > > > > > > silly Baha'i AO sin-keepers. > > > > My concern is this: I am not aware of Cathy Freeman declaring > > her Bahai affiliation(?) or estrangement(?), she certainly has kept > > it such pretty quiet over the years. > > > > If she has not chosen to make her faith, lack of it, or indifference, > > an issue for public speculation, why do others? > > > > You tell me? Baha'is seem to get all atither when a big name rumored to > be a Baha'i. On SRB there was a discussion of whether or not Cher was a > Baha'i. Is Joanne Woodward a Baha'i? Etc, etc.... > > Actually, Freeman need not make her religion a direct issue. It may be > just part of who she is andwhat informs her, but when Baha'is start > getting all giggly over famous people who are Baha'is, it might be > important for them to ask why this Baha'i is not a BIGS, a Baha'i in > good standing. > > > > > > But she is a great young athlete. A champion for both > > indigenous and non-indigenous Australians. > > > > And apparently she is quite outspoken, which is not something, it seems > that the Baha'i prelacy likes very much. > > > Australia, like many other nations, has a great spiritual > > wound in its past, and the choice of Cathy Freeman, and > > the inclusion of indiginous participants in the opening > > ceremony, the largest corroboree in history, was a > > particularly significant event on the path to healing. > > She seems to be a wonderful choice. > > > > > > So.. I don't care how Bahia's and non-Bahais want to > > hammer out their differences, but I would ask, given > > that Cathy has not made a big issue of her faith, > > or possible estrangement(?) from it.. given that she > > is easily the target of resentful racists and xenophobes > > in this country... how about leaving her out of your > > shitfight, from either side? > > Shitfight? Your choice of words, not mine. > > > > > > Loyal Bahai's can try and build something truly attractive to > > people, and not rely on reflected celebrity.. > > But again, Baha'is seem to have this thing about celebs who might be or > who are Baha'is. > > > > > And the critics can rip into the Administration for its actions > > in the abstract.. if the problems under discussion are endemic > > you don't need a particular person as whipping horse. > > Freeman's no whipping horse here. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:30 AM Subject: Re: SYMBOL OF RECONCILIATION LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! The MOST GREAT bahai sin is to maintain that the Writing uphold freedom of speech and thought. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm is free "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:8qg49b$s2j$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Greetings, Dave. > You wrote: > > Another load of crap from Bruce. This is a baseless accusation and I > > challenge you to show me one Baha'i who was sanctioned for how much > > they speak. > Uhm, it's not entirely the number of syllables I pronounced, or tapped > onto my keyboard, launching them into cyberspace that had me declared > ineligible to be a Baha'i; it was the way they joined together into words > and thoughts such as: there is freedom of thought and expression within > Baha'i. Go back and read the archives of the various Baha'i lists and > you'll see me repeatedly saying that I am a proof that there is freedom of > thought and expression within Baha'i. If Doug and his pals had not bothered > to decide to disprove my assertion, I could well be repeating this assertion > here and now. But, by their action they have made it impossible for me to > do that. > I still assert that freedom of thought and expression is a Baha'i > principle, even if Doug and his buddies don't approve. > > And personally I do not care what famous person is or is not a Baha'i. > > The reason others get excited about it because our culture is one of > > celebrity endorsement as if their opinions are somehow more valid than > > our own. I don't buy it. > What I'd like to see you admit to buying, is Baha'u'llah's principle > that not only your own understanding is valid, but the vast variety of > other understandings as well. The rainbow of human opinions is valid. > Also, Doug's opinion (even when expressed in a triad of triads) is not > any more valid than any other opinion. The legislation of the UHJ is > legislation, but the opinions expressed by Doug, even when signed Dept of > the Secretariat, are as valid, and as invalid, as any other, as you will > read under the signature Dept of the Secretariat, either by Doug himself > or his successors. > To Tolerance Within Baha'i, > Michael > > Dave > > > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:31 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: SYMBOL OF RECONCILIATION LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! To state that the bahai writings uphold freedom of speech and thought is indeed the greatest threat to the nine liars of Carmel.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:8qg49b$s2j$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Greetings, Dave. > You wrote: > > Another load of crap from Bruce. This is a baseless accusation and I > > challenge you to show me one Baha'i who was sanctioned for how much > > they speak. > Uhm, it's not entirely the number of syllables I pronounced, or tapped > onto my keyboard, launching them into cyberspace that had me declared > ineligible to be a Baha'i; it was the way they joined together into words > and thoughts such as: there is freedom of thought and expression within > Baha'i. Go back and read the archives of the various Baha'i lists and > you'll see me repeatedly saying that I am a proof that there is freedom of > thought and expression within Baha'i. If Doug and his pals had not bothered > to decide to disprove my assertion, I could well be repeating this assertion > here and now. But, by their action they have made it impossible for me to > do that. > I still assert that freedom of thought and expression is a Baha'i > principle, even if Doug and his buddies don't approve. > > And personally I do not care what famous person is or is not a Baha'i. > > The reason others get excited about it because our culture is one of > > celebrity endorsement as if their opinions are somehow more valid than > > our own. I don't buy it. > What I'd like to see you admit to buying, is Baha'u'llah's principle > that not only your own understanding is valid, but the vast variety of > other understandings as well. The rainbow of human opinions is valid. > Also, Doug's opinion (even when expressed in a triad of triads) is not > any more valid than any other opinion. The legislation of the UHJ is > legislation, but the opinions expressed by Doug, even when signed Dept of > the Secretariat, are as valid, and as invalid, as any other, as you will > read under the signature Dept of the Secretariat, either by Doug himself > or his successors. > To Tolerance Within Baha'i, > Michael > > Dave > > > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:36 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: SYMBOL OF RECONCILIATION LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! She's Outspoken? Oh, my. That's unforgiveable.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qg8ho$ge8$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8qfoqk$s9h$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > > In article <8qf7sv$95v$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > Bruce wrote: > > > > > > > And apparently she is quite outspoken, which is not something, it > > > seems that the Baha'i prelacy likes very much. > > > > Another load of crap from Bruce. > > You sure have been paying attention, but then when it comes to things > that threaten your view of how the Baha'i prelacy actually functions, > you get pissed and deny any problem exists. > > > > This is a baseless accusation and I > > challenge you to show me one Baha'i who was sanctioned for how much > > they speak. > > Allison, Mike, and a number of others from Talisman 1, and it looks > like Freeman, for her political activity. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:37 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: SYMBOL OF RECONCILIATION LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Maneck is the worst, most shameless fanatic apologist.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000922164946.26918.00000558@ng-md1.aol.com... > >Allison, Mike, and a number of others from Talisman 1, and it looks > >like Freeman, for her political activity. > > Dear Bruce, > > You had no reason to believe this had anything to do with her political > activities. In fact my sources tell me just the opposite. But I'm not going to > invade this woman's privacy by discussing the detail of this here. > > Recently there was a letter from the Universal House of Justice in response to > question about how Baha'i Institutions should be compared to western democratic > political systems. They wrote the following: > > "In general one can say that modern democracies have been established > as the outcome of attempts to limit the power of absolute monarchy, of > dictatorships, or of certain dominant classes. This may have come about > gradually through the centuries, or tumultuously by a series of > revolutions. Thus, even when democratic constitutions and structures > have been established, there remains a suspicion of authority as such, and > a tension between the degree of freedom accorded to individual citizens and > the imposition of sufficient public discipline to protect the weak > against the selfish pursuits of the strong among the citizenry. The > operation of transparency, accountability, freedom of the press and > critical dialogue is thus imbued with a spirit of partisanship that easily > descends into the merciless invasion of personal privacy, the dissemination > of calumny, the exaggeration of mistrust, and the misuse of the news media > at the hands of vested interests." > > I think this is a good example of how the > "spirit of partianship" so "easily descends into the merciless invasion of > personal privacy" and the "dissemination of calumny." > > warmest, Susan > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:37 AM Subject: Re: SYMBOL OF RECONCILIATION LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Maneck's game is all to change the subject, evasion.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qgjs4$ujm$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <20000922164946.26918.00000558@ng-md1.aol.com>, > smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > >Allison, Mike, and a number of others from Talisman 1, and it looks > > >like Freeman, for her political activity. > > > > Dear Bruce, > > > > You had no reason to believe this had anything to do with her > political > > activities. In fact my sources tell me just the opposite. But I'm not > going to > > invade this woman's privacy by discussing the detail of this here. > > Your sources. And just who are they when they at home, or at work? So, > the sort of political activity that Freeman is involved and looks to be > considering is okay with the Baha'i prelacy? Obviously "co-habiting" > isn't. > > If Freeman opts for a life in poltics, which will be partisan, is this > something the Baha'i prelacy will be okay with? What does Baha'i offer > as alternative? We certainly cannot criticize the UHJ, can't even stand > in terms of loyal opposition. We have seen the prelacy's heavy handed, > reactionary responses to what it imagines as threats to their > understanding of how Baha'i should. > > > > warmest, Susan > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:39 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: SYMBOL OF RECONCILIATION LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! You're the one always uttering calumny, of Professor Juan Cole et al.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000922225542.26596.00001059@ng-fi1.aol.com... > >So, > >the sort of political activity that Freeman is involved and looks to be > >considering is okay with the Baha'i prelacy? Obviously "co-habiting" > >isn't. > > > > So you knew full well what the truth was behind the loss of her administrative > rights when you uttered that calumny. > > Interesting. > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:40 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: SYMBOL OF RECONCILIATION LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! You've got it, Bruce. She's the only one uttering calumny, trying to deceive people outside the bahai faith who might happen to drop in on this.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qhb50$obj$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <20000922225542.26596.00001059@ng-fi1.aol.com>, > smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > >So, > > >the sort of political activity that Freeman is involved and looks to > be > > >considering is okay with the Baha'i prelacy? Obviously "co-habiting" > > >isn't. > > > > > > > So you knew full well what the truth was behind the loss of her > administrative > > rights when you uttered that calumny. > > Calumny? It was suggested that Freeman lost her rights because she was > co-habiting, but it was also suggested that her political activism, > which seems rather unBaha'i-ish, was also part of it. So, what do your > unnamed sources tell you? The only calumny here is your accusation of > calumny. > > > > > Interesting. > > What is intersting is your claim to sources who know why her rights > were revoked, but then you won't reveal who your supposed sources are > or what they tell you. The only calumny going on here is your > accusation of calumny. > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:41 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Where all the little hacks do so much of their hatchet work.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000922143138.26686.00000451@ng-ch1.aol.com... > >Baha'i supposedly has > >not clergy, so the equivalent would be how many Buddhist lay persons have > >been denied access to a temple for co-habiting. > > Not quite. Even non-Baha'is can get access to our Temples. What you couldn't do > is go to all those exciting business meetings we hold every 19 days. :-) > > warmest, Susan ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:42 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Oh boy.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qgau7$jeq$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <20000922143138.26686.00000451@ng-ch1.aol.com>, > smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > >Baha'i supposedly has > > >not clergy, so the equivalent would be how many Buddhist lay persons > have > > >been denied access to a temple for co-habiting. > > > > Not quite. Even non-Baha'is can get access to our Temples. What you > couldn't do > > is go to all those exciting business meetings we hold every 19 > days. :-) > > > > warmest, Susan > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:43 AM Subject: Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! So she's blowing hot air.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qgb0b$jmb$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <20000922143138.26686.00000451@ng-ch1.aol.com>, > smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > >Baha'i supposedly has > > >not clergy, so the equivalent would be how many Buddhist lay persons > have > > >been denied access to a temple for co-habiting. > > > > Not quite. Even non-Baha'is can get access to our Temples. What you > couldn't do > > is go to all those exciting business meetings we hold every 19 > days. :-) > > So? > > > > > > > warmest, Susan > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:44 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Notice how deftly she dismisses the basic freedom and rights of others.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000922225725.26596.00001060@ng-fi1.aol.com... > >What you > >couldn't do > >> is go to all those exciting business meetings we hold every 19 > >days. :-) > > > >So? > > So what are you making such a big deal about? ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:45 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Non sequiturs are her modus operandi, all fascists depend upon them.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qhb8c$oc6$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <20000922225725.26596.00001060@ng-fi1.aol.com>, > smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > >What you > > >couldn't do > > >> is go to all those exciting business meetings we hold every 19 > > >days. :-) > > > > > >So? > > > > So what are you making such a big deal about? > > I am not. David is, and you joined in with a non sequitur. > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:46 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! They'll only ignore the more immediate context since there's no way to really justify it to anyone with half a heart and brain.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qhg29$thm$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <39CC3DAC.267B4B53@ameritel.net>, > Pat Kohli wrote: > > > > > > Bruce wrote: > > > > > > > > I am not. David is, and you joined in with a non sequitur. > > > > Sure had me fooled. It looked to me about a third of the messages in > > this thread were you making a big deal about CF not having admin > rights. > > Trying focusing on the more immediate context. > > > > > Blessings! > > - Pat > > kohli@ameritel.net > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:47 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! You're quite right that they are afraid, afraid of the plain and obvious truth of being found out.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qg9i3$hj5$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8qfplh$t5m$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > > In article <8qeqfg$1vd$1@grandprime.binc.net>, > > "Bruce" wrote: > > > > > > > Throw mud? Naw. > > > > It is what you do best. > > Oh, David, you are so afraid, so you get so angry. > > > > > > > You tell me how many. But the comparison is not equal. Baha'i > > > supposedly has not clergy, so the equivalent would be how many > > > Buddhist lay persons have been denied access to a temple for co- > > > habiting. > > > > Each member of the Baha'i faith is called to reach the high moral > > standard expected of clergy. > > Oh, dear, you try so hard, but the reality is that outside of the > ersatz Baha'i clergy, Baha'is are laity, and the rules aren't quite the > same, nor are the expectations, but being a Bahga'i you can't seem to > understand that. > > > > Each individual Baha'i is held to a high > > standard. So your comparison to Buddhist lay persons is a poor > > choice. And BTW - the number of defrocked monks in Thailand in just > > the last few months is over 18 according to the BBC: > > > > https://news6.thdo.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia%2Dpacific/newsid% > > 5F923000/923367.stm > > Baha'is seem to think that they have this _high_ standard about > everything that the other religions don't or are too corrupt or > something. The reality is, Dave, until you understand why monks are > disrobed and for what reason, the comparison with laity is not > appropriate. > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course my view of Baha'i is biased and twisted, for it does not \ > > > agree with yours, the correct, pure view. > > > > No Bruce, you would find that you and I agree on many points about the > > Baha'i community, however your desire to smudge the image of the Faith > > is so strong that you have allowed rumor and gossip form the > foundation > > of your recent string of attacks. > > No, I have no interest in "smudging" Baha'i, though clearly the present > Baha'i prelacy is hardly above criticism. > > > > You are quick to dismiss the > > positive and you are far too quick to embrace the negative - like > > Mahdi's comments. > > You very sad little person. If you look at this thread, Mahdi had > nothing to do with this thread. > > > > > > > You certainly do have a number view about some things, but you also > > > seem to hold to a rather rigid view of the supremacy and inerrancy > of > > > Baha'i which puts you into a fundie bucket. > > > > So I am a fundamentalist because I believe that the Baha'i Faith > > represents a Revelation from God? I am a "fundie" because I believe > > Baha'u'llah's claims? Dude - that is messed up thinking on your part. > > > > Dude? Is this Bill or Ted? I thought your name was David. Dude. It is > the rigidity that you are demonstrating, it is the fear that you are > deomstrating when clallenged, it is the unwillingness to listen to > anything that might challenge your bubble.... > > > > Dave > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:48 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! They targeted her for some reason, that's for sure. Some contemptible little hack somewhere in Australia was worried about her.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:8q77m3$b8g$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > > wrote in message news:8q5d5u$lit$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > Cathy Freeman is also a recent Australian of the Year, 1998, I believe. > > Correct... > > > If that was done, it would have been done by the Oz NSA. If you are > > interested, you might contact johnwalker@ozemail.com.au for details. > > I already know the details, as well as John Walker who lives here in > Queensland. Walker and another one of the OZ NSA members, to me, are two of > the nicest people in the AO I have so far met. Would that the rest of the AO > be like the Aussies, and completely unlike the Americans. Thanks anyway :) > > > While you're chatting him up, could you ask if he is the famous miler > > of 1975? > > Will do...But since you also have his email, ask him yourself. I'm sure he'd > be happy to hear from you. > > > Regardless of whether she did or did not loose her admin rights, it is > > queer how I've been reading from some quarters there are no Baha'is to > > speak of in various parts of the world and voila, one is lighting the > > Olympic flame. Makes ya wonder a bit, eh? > > Makes me wonder why they did not seek to re-establish her rights, especially > given that she is now a married woman, apparently to some head-honcho at > Nike, it would seem. Anyway, the initial point stands, and attracting and > _keeping_ "people of capacity" (even when they're atheletes) should be a > consistent policy followed throughout. Some people in the BFC do much worse > things (some on a continual basis), as I'm sure all of us know, but they're > rarely if ever sanctioned. > > cheers, > Nima > > > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:50 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Sure hope Brave New World does an issue or two on this one!!! -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:8q7p5h$g2q$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > > wrote in message news:8q7mi2$b1v$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > Instead, my hunch- > > cruncher is telling me that what got her on the other side of her admin > > rights is likely common to most other Baha'is who've lost their admin > > rights and has nothing much to do w/ her super-athlete/flag-waving > > Aboriginal activities. > > Well, knowing the kinds of political activities CF is involved in (ones > which I myself wholeheartedly support, btw) , and given how prominent an > athlete and activist she is out here, I would say it was probably a > combination of both. CF -- and fyi we share a mutual friend -- found herself > in a bad situation some years ago. Sufficeth to say that the situation has > completely changed now (180 degrees), which is why the both of us have been > wondering why her rights haven't been reinstated since. If her rights were > reinstated, she would be a veritable "treasure" to the BFC as a whole, not > just OZ. To me, she's an Aboriginal version of a Muhammad Ali [Cassius Clay] > (a great athlete and a vocal political activist all rolled into one). > Now let's say for the sake of argument that Muhammad Ali had become a > Baha'i instead of a Black Muslim in 1964. Let's say as a Baha'i as well as > conscientitous objector (and the greatest boxer of all time to boot), he > refused to be drafted and sent to Vietnam, and even as a Baha'i made the > true, but infamous, remark to the media "no Vietcong ever called me a > nigger." Let's say Ali was going through the same marital problems as he was > then even as a Baha'i. Would the AO still sanction him or no?? What would > you recommend if you were (hypothetically speaking) the chairman of the US > NSA circa 1964-7. Freeman's situation, right now at least, would be very > similar to Ali's back in the mid 60s. > > > If that is the case, do you think Einstein should have two standards, > > one for Cathy Freeman|Dan Seals|(other persons of 'capacity') and a > > different set of standards for the rest of the 'no carport' Baha'is? > > Then, "Brave New World" really would have something to harp about. > > Talk to Big Al. BNW is Al's brainchild, not mine. But, even still, a little > satire, parody and comedy never hurt anyone. > > > > > cheers, > Nima > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:52 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Yawn, and double yawn.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:8q80m0$i7e$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > > wrote in message news:8q7rue$ht6$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > 2) Less than a year after my enrollment I was elected to an LSA in the > > midst of the outgoing secretaries (and another LSA member's) 'marital > > problems'. One of the two was having an extramarital affair in an > > apparent way, even telling their spouse 'I'll be over at (my lover's) > > place for a few days, mind the kids'. At some point the other party > > brought their marital problems to the LSA, as is needed for a year of > > patience. The other party did not get reelected at Rizwan; I got > > elected in their stead and fell into the middle of the LSA's facet of > > the problem. The adulterating party got some sympathy from their > > spouse, who described her as an ACOA, and encouraged patience. That > > spouse learned a whole lot real quick, I might add. Furthermore, the > > 3rd party had apparently intruded into several previous marriages. At > > some point the LSA directed the other spouse to break off their > > relationship immediately w/ the third party and when this was not done, > > they were recommended for loss of admin rights. > > Ouch! Sticky situation (no pun intended)! > > > Having seen much of the final phase of the dissolution of these > > people's marriage, even thought I thought the LSA could have been > > helped by more maturity, I don't see much that would have pulled this > > one out of the crapper. One of the spouses fell into the arms of a > > home-breaker and when this pattern of the third party was pointed out, > > the spouse persisted rather than realizing that they'd made a series of > > mistakes, they'd been deceived and were being exploited. > > Why is it that 2/3 of everything LSAs deal with from north to south involves > marital conflicts?! > > > ----- > > > > I had no idea that Muhammad Ali was having marital problems in the mid- > > 1960s. > > He did...Married twice just in that decade alone. Another 2 in the following > decade. > > > I do recall he got a boxing championship - Olympic Gold, > > Light Heavyweight division, yep. > > > I > > believe, joined NoI, changed his name, likely got the HW pro > > championship belt, > > After upsetting the "unbeatable" heavyweight champion Sonny Liston in Miami > Beach, FL in Feb. 1964 by the end of the 6th round, and Liston failing to > get up from his corner, forcing the referee and judges to call a KO defeat > by Clay/Ali, going on to KO Liston for real in 1 round in their rematch a > year later and beating everyone following until they wouldn't let him box > for refusing to be drafted. > > >declined the draft, went to jail, > > Actually, he didn't spend any time in a real jail, but legal battle after > legal battle. Just had his license to box revoked all over the US and then > his passport taken away, so he couldn't box elsewhere, which for a > professional athlete amounts to the same. > > > got out years > > later, > > The whole row lated 3 years. > > > got the belt again, > > Nope. Didn't regain his title again until upsetting another so called > "unbeatable" heavyweight champion, George Foreman, in 8 rounds in Zaire 1974 > (i.e. "The Rumble in the Jungle"). > > cheers, > Nima > > > > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:53 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! A sure sign of a trouble maker.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qeqqv$216$1@grandprime.binc.net... > > > > > >declined the draft, went to jail, > > > > Actually, he didn't spend any time in a real jail, but legal battle after > > legal battle. Just had his license to box revoked all over the US and then > > his passport taken away, so he couldn't box elsewhere, which for a > > professional athlete amounts to the same. > > > > > got out years > > > later, > > > > The whole row lated 3 years. > > It was during that time Ali became a very potent, articulate voice for > political and moral change. Seeing films of his speeches gives us a > fascinating view of a man of deep conviction and understanding and great > skill at speechifying. However, when he was able to resume boxing this > public political activity stopped, which was too bad. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:53 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Note Well: One must ask for supposed "rights." The bahai way.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000921003218.08907.00000121@ng-fi1.aol.com... > >Anyway, the initial point stands, and attracting and > >_keeping_ "people of capacity" (even when they're atheletes) should be a > >consistent policy followed throughout. > > I have to echo, Pat's sentiment. Do we give special treatment to famous > atheletes you should get special treatment in relationship to Baha'i law? > > As to the question as to why her rights haven't yet been restored, did she ask > for them? > > warmest, Susan ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:54 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Bruce wrote: > Given the less than liberating performance of the Baha'i AO, maybe she > doesn't want them back. Maybe being a Baha'i is less important to her > than is her own integrity. Good for her! -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qcfnf$1cj$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <20000921003218.08907.00000121@ng-fi1.aol.com>, > smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > >Anyway, the initial point stands, and attracting and > > >_keeping_ "people of capacity" (even when they're atheletes) should > be a > > >consistent policy followed throughout. > > > > I have to echo, Pat's sentiment. Do we give special treatment to > famous > > atheletes you should get special treatment in relationship to Baha'i > law? > > > > As to the question as to why her rights haven't yet been restored, > did she ask > > for them? > Bruce wrote: > Given the less than liberating performance of the Baha'i AO, maybe she > doesn't want them back. Maybe being a Baha'i is less important to her > than is her own integrity. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:55 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Can't help quoting myself.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Patrick Henry" wrote in message news:_Rly5.3991$hD4.731196@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > Think carefully about the way things stand today in the > bahai faith: > > One has to *ask* for one's "rights"; one has to ask people > who have no sense of justice for justice.... Gee, it's obvious > Cathy Freeman just isn't a very good bahai.... And definitely > not the type of prominent "person of capacity" the uhj wants.... > > Lackies only.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > "Bruce" wrote in message > news:8qcfnf$1cj$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > In article <20000921003218.08907.00000121@ng-fi1.aol.com>, > > smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > > >Anyway, the initial point stands, and attracting and > > > >_keeping_ "people of capacity" (even when they're atheletes) should > > be a > > > >consistent policy followed throughout. > > > > > > I have to echo, Pat's sentiment. Do we give special treatment to > > famous > > > atheletes you should get special treatment in relationship to Baha'i > > law? > > > > > > As to the question as to why her rights haven't yet been restored, > > did she ask > > > for them? > > > > Given the less than liberating performance of the Baha'i AO, maybe she > > doesn't want them back. Maybe being a Baha'i is less important to her > > than is her own integrity. > > > > > > > > > > warmest, Susan > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:56 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! You're the liars slashing people clandestinely in the lockerroom.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qe0jp$ss9$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8qdbu1$2g9$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > rlittle95@my-deja.com wrote: > > You are discussing a woman you do not know, have never met, and who > > would most certainly not wish her name dragged around as you are > doing. > > Please take this back to your locker room. > > > > Robert A. Little > > > You Baha'i. Whata bunch. How many Baha'is were thrilled to see a Baha'i > light the olimpic flame, but never mind that she had her standing as a > Baha'i reduced by the Baha'i AO. Does she want to be a Baha'i good > standing? Damdifino, but there are certainly good reasons why she > wouldn't. While Baha'i has attracked "people of capacity" in the past, > it seems to now, in the ultra-consevative guise it has taken on, to be > sorely lacking "people of capacity," or in the ability to bring them in > to the Baha'i fold. > > Let me repeat a comment I think you made and my response: > > ==== > > > "We are just now entering a stage (talking about the century now > unfolding) which will see the Baha'i Faith explode onto the world stage, > and assume an increasingly larger role in world affairs, a role it will > earn not through force of numbers initially, but through spiritual and > moral authority in a world which is growing increasingly morally > bankrupt." < > > I have heard that for thirty years. Not having [any longer readily > available] the juice of inner transformation that is found in the likes > of Buddhism, Pentecostalism, etc, it will never have the moral > authority you so hope for. Where is the Baha'i Martin Luther King, > Dalai Lama, Gandhi, Pope John XXIII, Mother Teresa, Aung Sun Suu Kyi, > Elie Weisel, Thich Nhat Hanh, Albert Schweitzer, Pete Seeger, Ram Dass, > Van Morrison, Thomas Merton, Helen Keller, Jack Kerouac, Allen > Ginsberg, Krishnamurti, Aldous Huxley, Toni Morrison, Rachel Carson, > Jimmy Carter, Muhammed Ali, Bob Dylan, Issan Dorsey, Chogyam Trungpa, > Phillip Glass, bell hooks, Sulak Sivaraska, Malcolm X, Gary Snyder, > Tetsugen Glassman Roshi, Matthew Fox, Issac Bonewits, Alan Watts, > Starhawk, Robert Thurman, etc, etc? > > ==== > > Well, it had Cathy Freeman, but it seems to have lost her. > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:57 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! The ao's technique? Silence or Drive them out!!! -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:8qec2t$gu1$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > > > > I can name some Americans: Dizzy Gillespie, Fayard Nicholas, Robert > > Hayden, Inez Morris, Alex Rocco, Jim Seals, Dash Crofts, Dan Crofts, as > > well as Cathy Freeman. > > Umm, Cathy Freeman is an Aussie, mate! > > >I'm less familiar w/ famous Iranians who > > are/were Baha'is. > > The acclaimed singers Houshmand Aghili, Ahdieh, several actors whose names > escape me now, the millionaire industrialists Habib Sabet and Hojbar > Yazdani, etc -- off the top of my head... > > cheers, > Nima > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:58 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Yawn again. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Curious" wrote in message news:8qedln$c21$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > I thought it was a great list Bruce.Loved it. > Mind if I suggest the addition of some local product? > > Henry 'Banjo' Clarke. > > (Feature articles-The Age,Tues 21st Dec 19999 and Fri 24th March 2000 > Obituary-The Australian Tues 28th March 2000). > > Theology; "That Adam and Eve....how come they ate the apple instead of > the snake?......you get a much better feed out of a snake!!!" > > Curious. > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:58 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Indeed. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qee0a$ck8$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8qedln$c21$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Curious wrote: > > I thought it was a great list Bruce.Loved it. > > Mind if I suggest the addition of some local product? > > > > Henry 'Banjo' Clarke. > > > > (Feature articles-The Age,Tues 21st Dec 19999 and Fri 24th March 2000 > > Obituary-The Australian Tues 28th March 2000). > > > > Theology; "That Adam and Eve....how come they ate the apple instead of > > the snake?......you get a much better feed out of a snake!!!" > > Indeed. > > > > > Curious. > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 9:59 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Such a despicable hack. Why do you bother with him? -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qeduj$cjr$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > David, > > > "All of those people that you mentioned can be said to be a part of > the cult of personality that modern society fosters." < > > Well, Dave, let's do what we can to dismiss this naughty cult of > personality, or we can recognize your sour grapes for what they are. > The fact of the matter is that the supposed new revelation of the > supposed unknowable essence is not doing very well at the hands of its > reactionary handlers, whereas the "relic" religions continue to produce > individuals who have far reaching impact upon the world around them. > > > "Individual Baha'is should not seek the kind of fame the people you > mentioned saught." < > > Sour grapes, sour grapes, sour grapes. The great majority of the > individuals I mentioned people did not seek fame. That those who have > "fame" is not the point of what they have to offer, though it may help. > > > "What good would it do to perpetuate the very faults that make the > world the pit that it has become." < > > And you are saying that these people I mentioned are doing that? > Bitterly sour grapes. > > > "And just a quick point - Cathy Freeman _IS_ a Baha'i. She has not > withdrawn, she has not been removed, she is not a Covenant > breaker."< > > Is she active as a Baha'i, does she have her rights, or is she just > letting > her Baha'i-ness lapse while she move on to something less confining of > her spirit? > > > 'And finaly I am sick and tired of your grand conspiracy theory that > the Baha'i Faith is some kind of "fundy enclave" who only want sheep > as followers.' < > > I have not posited that as a theory, but it certainly does seem to be > the > case that the Baha'i prelacy has serious trouble with diversity. > > > 'That is pure crap. I have yet to see a single scrap of evidence that > your opinion on that issue holds any water." < > > The sad thing is, David, you are too scared to really, carefully look. > When evidence is presented to you, you get angry and defensive, as you > do with most anything that threatens your view of Baha'i supremacy. > > > Pat, > > > 'I can name some Americans: Dizzy Gillespie, Fayard Nicholas, > Robert Hayden, Inez Morris, Alex Rocco, Jim Seals, Dash Crofts, Dan > Crofts, as well as Cathy Freeman. I'm less familiar w/ famous Iranians > who are/were Baha'is. Among other parts of the world, I don't > know."< > > A rather short list with only a couple of real lights in it. Let me > offer: > > Shaykhu'r-Ra'is Qajar, Alain Locke, and Mark Tobey. > >  > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:01 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Yes, Bruce, you're so few, so few.... How could it be otherwise given the fascism of the uhj which only drives out anyone of any real ability.... Like Cathy Freeman.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qeppt$pl2$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > > I think there are a lot of Baha'is in the grass, in the local NAACP, > in > > volunteer humanitarian organizations, advancing a Baha'i agenda, for a > > better world. I don't know all the names, but they are all people of > > capacity to me. > > You need to talk with Cal Rollins about Baha'is in the Civil Rights > Movement and how they were discouraged. It might worth your while to > pop over to Talisman for such a discussion. > > I am sure there are good people who are doing good things who are > Baha'is, but outside of the few names mentioned, it surprising that the > latest revelation, the spiritual light for this age, has produced so > very few luminaries. > > > > > > Blessings! > > - Pat > > kohli@ameritel.net > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:02 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! There are many messages on my bahai website from Professor Juan Cole and others regarding the suppressing of bahais during the civil rights days. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qg9nk$hts$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8qfram$vcv$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > > In article <8qeppt$pl2$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > Bruce wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I think there are a lot of Baha'is in the grass, in the local > NAACP, > > > in > > > > volunteer humanitarian organizations, advancing a Baha'i agenda, > > for a > > > > better world. I don't know all the names, but they are all people > > of > > > > capacity to me. > > > > > > You need to talk with Cal Rollins about Baha'is in the Civil Rights > > > Movement and how they were discouraged. It might worth your while to > > > pop over to Talisman for such a discussion. > > > > Cal has some insight but to be honest I have heard very different > > stories from Baha'is who actually marched with Dr. King and they tell > a > > very different story. > > > Cal was there during this time. I'll take his first hand knowledge over > your vague after the fact "different story." > > > > > > I am sure there are good people who are doing good things who are > > > Baha'is, but outside of the few names mentioned, it surprising that > > the > > > latest revelation, the spiritual light for this age, has produced so > > > very few luminaries. > > > > Just because you do not see the light does not mean it is not there. > > As for luminaries - Abdu'l-Baha comes to mind. > > Long dead. > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:03 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! How long ago.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Curious" wrote in message news:8qf3nt$4q4$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Oh.....what a fun game. > My Baha'is bigger than your Baha'is bigger than your non Baha'i..... > > Richard St Barbe Baker-(Sexist environmentalist:) Founder of Men of the > trees. > > Bernard Leach- Principal force behind revival of Western studio > pottery tradition. (Now he's go a lot to answer for). > > Curious. > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:04 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Only one opinion is allowed by the liars of Mt Carmel.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:8qg5fi$dl$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...> Greetings, Dave. > Alas, you didn't read enough Baha'i material to rise above this > childish concept of enemies of the faith. > The whole point is that just because something isn't convincing to > you does not render it invalid nor inimical. Baha'u'llah intended that the > rainbow of human thought be accepted as valid, not solely your opinion. > In actual fact, it is a valid thought that the Guardianship is to > be understood as a spiritual rather than a genetic inheritance. It's fine > if you disagree, on the condition you don't reincarnate the attitudes of > the Dark Ages. Humans are capable of having a great diversity of opinions > and the visualization of enemies and demons is not a mature response to > this divinely created capacity of this species. > To You Accepting the Validity of More Than Your Own Opinion, > Michael > > (dfiorito@my-deja.com) writes: > > Ooooo. I am so frightened. I have seen the evidence, and frankly, it > > amounts to nothing. When I was researching the Baha'i Faith I read a > > ton of work by Covenant breakers and enemies of the Faith, I read > > everything I could get my hands on and it still was unconvincing. > > You'll just have to do better. > > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:05 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Couldn't agree more.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qgacc$iu2$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8qg5fi$dl$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>, > bn872@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael McKenny) wrote: > > Greetings, Dave. > > Alas, you didn't read enough Baha'i material to rise above this > > childish concept of enemies of the faith. > > The whole point is that just because something isn't convincing to > > you does not render it invalid nor inimical. Baha'u'llah intended > that the > > rainbow of human thought be accepted as valid, not solely your > opinion. > > In actual fact, it is a valid thought that the Guardianship is to > > be understood as a spiritual rather than a genetic inheritance. It's > fine > > if you disagree, on the condition you don't reincarnate the attitudes > of > > the Dark Ages. Humans are capable of having a great diversity of > opinions > > and the visualization of enemies and demons is not a mature response > to > > this divinely created capacity of this species. > > To You Accepting the Validity of More Than Your Own Opinion, > > Michael > > Lucidly on point. > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:06 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Very small indeed, and getting smaller all the time.... And now the Nine Assholes of Haifa have driven out Cathy Freeman.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qga8g$ill$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8qfqvr$uud$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > dfiorito@my-deja.com wrote: > > In article <8qeduj$cjr$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > Bruce wrote: > > > > > > Not sour grapes Bruce. You just don't get it. You think someone must > > achieve fame to be important or have capacity? That is shallow. > > The issue of fame is yours not mine. Some of the people of my list are > not famous. One of my points about the way Baha'i is presently being > run is that it is remarkably obscure. One would think, being the light > of the world, that it would produce individuals who would make a > broader mark. > > > > > > > > > "And just a quick point - Cathy Freeman _IS_ a Baha'i. She has > not > > > withdrawn, she has not been removed, she is not a Covenant > > > breaker."< > > > > > > Is she active as a Baha'i, does she have her rights, or is she just > > > letting her Baha'i-ness lapse while she move on to something less > > > confining of her spirit? > > > > Bruce, that last comment is wild speculation on your part though it is > > par for the course as far as you are concerned. Her status is her > > business and your speculation is just more evidence of your > underhanded > > tactics. > > It may be speculation, but given her very active politics, it is not a > matter of speculation to see why she was bumped and why she has not > asked for reinstatement. > > > > > > > > 'And finaly I am sick and tired of your grand conspiracy theory > that > > > the Baha'i Faith is some kind of "fundy enclave" who only want sheep > > > as followers.' < > > > > > > I have not posited that as a theory, but it certainly does seem to > be > > > the case that the Baha'i prelacy has serious trouble with diversity. > > > > So you have not posited a theory and then you posit a theory. Make up > > you mind Bruce. > > I posisted no theory. Simply made an observation. > > > > > > > > > > > 'That is pure crap. I have yet to see a single scrap of evidence > > > > that your opinion on that issue holds any water." < > > > > > > The sad thing is, David, you are too scared to really, carefully > look. > > > When evidence is presented to you, you get angry and defensive, as > you > > > do with most anything that threatens your view of Baha'i supremacy. > > > > Ooooo. I am so frightened. > > The thing is, you are. > > > > >I have seen the evidence, and frankly, it > > amounts to nothing. > > Only when you close your eyes. > > > When I was researching the Baha'i Faith I read a > > ton of work by Covenant breakers and enemies of the Faith, I read > > everything I could get my hands on and it still was unconvincing. > > You'll just have to do better. > > All I need to do is point to your anger and refusal to listen to anyone > who might challenge your beliefs. > > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > > > 'I can name some Americans: Dizzy Gillespie, Fayard Nicholas, > > > Robert Hayden, Inez Morris, Alex Rocco, Jim Seals, Dash Crofts, Dan > > > Crofts, as well as Cathy Freeman. I'm less familiar w/ famous > > Iranians > > > who are/were Baha'is. Among other parts of the world, I don't > > > know."< > > > > > > A rather short list with only a couple of real lights in it. Let me > > > offer: > > > > > > Shaykhu'r-Ra'is Qajar, Alain Locke, and Mark Tobey. > > > > And one of the top anthropologists in the nation John Adair. A true > > pioneer in visual anthropology. Then their is Kevin Locke who is a > > leader in the Lakota arts movement. > > Still a very small list for the new light of the world. > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:07 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Please name the assistant and provide the details, if you would. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:8qg620$172$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Actually, Dave, one context for this is that the UHJ had the goal of > attracting people of capacity to the faith as a prelude to entry by troops. > Ottawa even had an assistant with this responsibility, but this assistant > resigned from the Faith. > To Tolerance Within Baha'i, > Michael > (dfiorito@my-deja.com) writes: > > All of those people that you mentioned can be said to be a part of the > > cult of personality that modern society fosters. They each caught on > > in some popular way. They are icons. There are plenty of Baha'i icons > > but what you fail to see is that they are just a part of the fabric of > > the Baha'i community. You see equality goes beyond race and gender and > > includes station. Individual Baha'is should not seek the kind of fame > > the people you mentioned saught. What good would it do to perpetuate > > the very faults that make the world the pit that it has become. Fame > > is a material pursuit. There will always be people of capacity in the > > Baha'i Faith. You may just not notice them for what they are. > > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:08 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! She's trying to avoid the real issue, the tyranny of bahai fanaticism.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000921220920.16203.00000326@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >You are discussing a woman you do not know, have never met, and who > >would most certainly not wish her name dragged around as you are doing. > >Please take this back to your locker room. > > Dear Robert, > > I'm not discussing the woman in question, who as you note, I know nothing > about. I'm discussing only the principle behind Nima's suggestion that > celebrities should get special treatment. > > warmest, Susan ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:09 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Which it obviously doesn't.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:8qg5mo$nf$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Greetings, Susan. > I agree completely. The UHJ ought to treat everyone decently. > To Tolerance Within Baha'i, > Michael > > Smaneck (smaneck@aol.com) writes: > > I'm not discussing the woman in question, who as you note, I know nothing > > about. I'm discussing only the principle behind Nima's suggestion that > > celebrities should get special treatment. > > warmest, Susan > > > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:10 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! The uhj wouldn't hesitate for a moment to rape her soul if they thought it was necessary to preserve their grip on power.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000922142253.26686.00000446@ng-ch1.aol.com... > As long as we are mentioning prominent Baha'is, don't forget Layli Miller > Bashir, who fought successfully for asylum status for those women who would be > victims of female circumcision.. She now operates the Tahirih Justice Center > in D.C. > > Check out her book *Do They Hear You When You Cry?* > > warmest, Susan ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:11 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Yeah, right. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qgb62$jqe$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <20000922142253.26686.00000446@ng-ch1.aol.com>, > smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > As long as we are mentioning prominent Baha'is, don't forget Layli > Miller > > Bashir, who fought successfully for asylum status for those women > who would be > > victims of female circumcision.. She now operates the Tahirih > Justice Center > > in D.C. > > > > Check out her book *Do They Hear You When You Cry?* > > It is intersting to see these names. Baha'is should know about these > people in their midst as should non-Baha'is. > > > > > > warmest, Susan > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:12 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! I.e., fundamentalists work together.... So what's new? -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000922142641.26686.00000449@ng-ch1.aol.com... > >Robert was following up after a post of Bruce's. At least, that is how it > >looks on my reader. > > Okay. He had trailed it with my post. > > warmest, Susan ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:13 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Oh, my, one should NEVER accuse bahai institutions of any impropriety.... THEY'RE FROM GOD!!!!! -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000922230345.26596.00001061@ng-fi1.aol.com... > >it is very, very wrong to publicly speculate about the presumed > >foibles and failures of someone who is not present and who we know > >absolutely nothing about. > > Dear Robert, > > You are quite correct. And it is egually wrong to accuse the Baha'i > Institutions of having acted inappropriately in a matter which we know nothing > about. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:14 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! That's right. Anyone not the list for cheering the nine liars of Carmel merits only contumely.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qhbdm$olo$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <20000922230345.26596.00001061@ng-fi1.aol.com>, > smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > >it is very, very wrong to publicly speculate about the presumed > > >foibles and failures of someone who is not present and who we know > > >absolutely nothing about. > > > > Dear Robert, > > > > You are quite correct. And it is egually wrong to accuse the Baha'i > > Institutions of having acted inappropriately in a matter which we > know nothing > > about. > > > > And it is also wrong for Baha'is to get all giggly over someone who not > a BIGS, who has been officialy reduced in standing. > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:15 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: bahai.us.com & the Olympics Hope you have all the satire regarding Cathy Freeman.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm wrote in message news:8psg5a$tpp$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > You can put the flowers and chocolates away: it's okay - we do it for > the love of it! > > Yes boys and girls, the Brave New World Team have put forward yet > ANOTHER special September edition - just in time to celebrate the world- > uniting event being held in 'Sideney' Australia... THE OLYMPICS! > > Here's the now infamous URL again: > https://www.bahai.us.com/ > > This month's inside gossip (sorry ... news) includes: > *Gender test for House members > *Baha'i community new 'Survivor' location > *Brave New World goes for Review > *ARB/TRB latest war news > > As well as brand new segments: > *Soapbox > *Competition Time > *Part One (for those who missed it on the newsgroups) of Michael > McKenny's "Nostalgic Moscow" > > Not only that but you can get your own back on the AO with "Hendi's > Horror" - have fun being the little birdy that sits on Big Al's > shoulder. > > https://www.bahai.us.com/ > > What Ho! > Al Marbig > *Not to be confused with a certain lovely lady who got excommunicated > (sorry ... removed from the rolls). > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:15 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: bahai.us.com & the Olympics Glad to hear it. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Patrick Henry" wrote in message news:lynw5.47671$QW4.549338@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > Brave New World: > "Beginning with our December issue Brave New World is to go into print and > be circulated to households throughout the civilised world. This > breakthrough has been made possible by our acquisition, by means that are > best not talked about, of the mailing addresses of Baha'is in the United > States, Canada, Australia and the United Kingdom." > > Assuming this assertion is serious (always a big assumption > with Brave New World!), I'd appreciate it if you would include > my website name & URL in your mass mailing: > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > "The Texas Brigade, under the command of Colonel > Doctor Maniac...." :-) LOVE your sense of humor.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > > > wrote in message news:8psg5a$tpp$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > You can put the flowers and chocolates away: it's okay - we do it for > > the love of it! > > > > Yes boys and girls, the Brave New World Team have put forward yet > > ANOTHER special September edition - just in time to celebrate the world- > > uniting event being held in 'Sideney' Australia... THE OLYMPICS! > > > > Here's the now infamous URL again: > > https://www.bahai.us.com/ > > > > This month's inside gossip (sorry ... news) includes: > > *Gender test for House members > > *Baha'i community new 'Survivor' location > > *Brave New World goes for Review > > *ARB/TRB latest war news > > > > As well as brand new segments: > > *Soapbox > > *Competition Time > > *Part One (for those who missed it on the newsgroups) of Michael > > McKenny's "Nostalgic Moscow" > > > > Not only that but you can get your own back on the AO with "Hendi's > > Horror" - have fun being the little birdy that sits on Big Al's > > shoulder. > > > > https://www.bahai.us.com/ > > > > What Ho! > > Al Marbig > > *Not to be confused with a certain lovely lady who got excommunicated > > (sorry ... removed from the rolls). > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:23 AM Subject: Re: Reply to Doug's Review of Juan's Book Concluding Part Thank you for insightful analysis of present-day uhj tyranny.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:8qfo3b$b5n$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Greetings. > Here is the conclusion of my analysis of Doug's letter. Doug wrote: > >this opposition has tried by every means possible to undermine the > >broad authority conferred in Baha'u'llah's own words and emphasized in > >the Master's Will and Testament. > I concede, Doug, that the gold medal for undermining the authority of > the Universal House of Justice has been won by you and your colleagues. > Without your exclusivist fundamentalism, who knows, half the world might > be Baha'i by now. > >(In Dr. Cole's book, this agenda makes its appearance in the > >conclusion: namely, that the Faith founded by Baha'u'llah has failed in > >its mission because, like "the Khomeinist state in Iran", it has been > >somehow captured by "fundamentalists", by which term Dr. Cole has > >repeatedly characterized the members of the Universal House of > >Justice.) . . . > Actually, from an historical point of view, you could provide a very > valuable primary source for information on this point. Would you consider > sharing with us how precisely it was that you and your colleagues came to > dominate the religion and to try so hard to impose your personal > understanding of Shoghi Effendi's writings as the sole doctrine of the > Baha'i religion? If the mission of Baha'u'llah is understood as the > educating of humanity so it could accept its vast variety, including its > vast variety of thought and belief, within Baha'i, then, indeed, your rise > to power and your insistence on a single allowable doctrine is the failure > of that mission. Of course, at some point the influence of the broad- > minded and tolerant founder of the religion may succeed in overcoming your > temporary defeat of his purpose. > To Tolerance In Baha'i, > Michael > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 10:32 AM Subject: REVISED - David Horowitz - Radical Son Just as applicable to bahai tyranny: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). --David Horowitz - Radical Son For similar observations, see "The Bahai Technique": https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 11:42 AM Subject: Re: Cathy Freeman - Re: Administrative Rights in the Baha'i Faith I meant the other person. Not you. Posts and Replies can get confusing. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qif19$tdf$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > I'm one of the worst? One of the worst what? > > > You're one of the worst.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > www.fglaysher.com > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > > > "Bruce" wrote in message > > news:8qgbdn$k5s$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > Martin Luther King. > > > > > > > > Can we please drop this subject - if a person feels that he/she > *must* > > > > know > > > > why a Baha'i has lost her administrative rights, he/she can > contact > > > the > > > > National Spiritual Assembly of that country and ask. > > > > > > And you'll be told the reasons? Goodness. So what then is the > problem > > > if the NSA will tell the reasons. You are a BIGS, let us set this to > > > rest. Ask the OZ NSA why. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -saman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com https://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:47 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - The bahai Technique bahai attempts to suppress knowledge of what the uhj has done to Cathy Freeman by maligning me will not deceive those people who desire the truth. As of September 2000, the continuing relevance of these observations should be apparent to any fair-minded person. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- During the last several years, a number of experienced observers have remarked on the methods many bahais use to avoid various issues or discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Frederick Glaysher, May 12, 1992: "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [since 1976]. The usual stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the Truth." https://fglaysher.com/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm Ron House, November 14, 1997: "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so much he says something intemperate, then point out how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this technique works, so I've been making a conscious effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. At any other time, they would overlook faults, as Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode they go for the jugular. Very sad." https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/House2.htm Fran Baker, May 1998: "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a groupacts this way. Very scary." Professor Juan Cole, June 12, 1998:"Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified threats of declaring him or her a CB [Covenant Breaker (heretic)] to silence the individual, and if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the gullibility of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and could never do anything wrong. It is a perfectracket." "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization ostensibly committed to tolerance!" https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/Cole10.htm Frederick Glaysher, June 1998: "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to talk.religion.bahai." K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in their condemnations of their fellow believers, I would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not character assassination by innuendo, what is?" https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/Johnson18.htm Gibro28W, October 12, 1998: "In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out as "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant."If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs of its members in the first place." https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/srb73.htm Barthaman on September 14, 1998: "Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned by their fathers,so-to-speak. They have been cast out and dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too. Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)-- after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion? Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on, however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud. Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend." https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/srb66.htm Professor Juan Cole wrote, February 23, 1999: "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon them to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do not fall silent." "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech about the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You will note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long-term heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose with the facts,' and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused of all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been backbitten by them." "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute." "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five years.He can explain it to you." https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/Cole71.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/Johnson21.htm And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/srb65.htm This document at https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:51 AM Subject: Re: SYMBOL OF RECONCILIATION LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! After over four years of observing their tactics, I've learnt a few things about the way they operate: 1. Always smear and attack the individual. 2. Lure into supposed discussion then cut the jugular. 3. Work together to create the perception for non-bahais that the individual is unbalanced, aberrant, etc.... 4. Change or ignore the subject. Finally, it's simple a waste of time and energy, as long as the uhj uses "review" to suppress all free thought and discussion. "The Bahai Technique": https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/technique.htm Frederick Glaysher....The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/bahai.htm On talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, and AOL: Keyword Bahai, Message Boards "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000924015522.16269.00001191@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >it was also suggested that her political activism, > >which seems rather unBaha'i-ish, was also part of it. > > You are the one I heard going on and on about how the AO had condemned her for > her political activities. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:54 AM Subject: Re: SYMBOL OF RECONCILIATION LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! You've certainly right on this one too.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:8qid5k$93g$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Yum, Doug or somebody has written a letter about the origins of democracy > and how we ought not really have it, how despotism is better. Could someone > kindly post this here in its complete form, as long as this complete form > does not include any naming of individuals being warned about covenantal > concerns, in which case may we please have posted here the general bits > about nasty democracy and jolly tyranny. > Excpectantly, > Michael > Smaneck (smaneck@aol.com) writes: > > > > Recently there was a letter from the Universal House of Justice in response to > > question about how Baha'i Institutions should be compared to western democratic > > political systems. They wrote the following: > > > > "In general one can say that modern democracies have been established > > as the outcome of attempts to limit the power of absolute monarchy, of > > dictatorships, or of certain dominant classes. This may have come about > > gradually through the centuries, or tumultuously by a series of > > revolutions. Thus, even when democratic constitutions and structures > > have been established, there remains a suspicion of authority as such, and > > a tension between the degree of freedom accorded to individual citizens and > > the imposition of sufficient public discipline to protect the weak > > against the selfish pursuits of the strong among the citizenry. The > > operation of transparency, accountability, freedom of the press and > > critical dialogue is thus imbued with a spirit of partisanship that easily > > descends into the merciless invasion of personal privacy, the dissemination > > of calumny, the exaggeration of mistrust, and the misuse of the news media > > at the hands of vested interests." > > > > warmest, Susan > > > > > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:55 AM Subject: Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Only a fool would want to given how deceitful and dishonest what passes for "administration" has become. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000922143138.26686.00000451@ng-ch1.aol.com... > >Baha'i supposedly has > >not clergy, so the equivalent would be how many Buddhist lay persons have > >been denied access to a temple for co-habiting. > > Not quite. Even non-Baha'is can get access to our Temples. What you couldn't do > is go to all those exciting business meetings we hold every 19 days. :-) > > warmest, Susan ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! You think you're so clever but are only repeating the prevailing cliches on both accounts.... Obviously beyond your level.... I wouldn't contribute a nickel to the bahai faith today given the way the uhj distorts Baha'u'llah's Teachings. Apparently many, MANY thousands of other American bahais feel the same way this year.... Your attempts at smearing my character, Professor Juan Cole, and others are quite pathetic. The non-bahai observer seeking the truth of what is really going on won't be fooled by you and your cohort of liars.... Incidentally, like so many academics today, though I don't believe you really are one in the proper sense, you haven't a clue regarding what business is really all about.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000924015337.16269.00001190@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >Notice how deftly she dismisses the basic freedom > >and rights of others... > > Dear Fred, > > I am so sorry that you have been deprived of the basic freedom to contribute > all that money you are making selling Real Estate to the construction of the > Arc on Mt. Carmel. I'm also sorry you have lost your right to eat cookies and > drink tea while listening to tapes of Robert Henderson's exciting Feast > letters. > > I hope you can adjust. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 9:06 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Here we have one of the worst bahai fanatics known on Usenet revealing quite clearly what the received opinion is toward Cathy Freeman, as it is or would be towards others who fail to lock step.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000924014047.16269.00001188@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >And it is also wrong for Baha'is to get all giggly over someone who not > >a BIGS, who has been officialy reduced in standing. > > No, it is just silly. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Let me also state unequivocally that I have no desire nor would I ever attend any bahai event such as "feast" given the oppression and coercion that the uhj has wreaked on many people now for over a decade.... The non-bahai observer may find the details on my bahai website. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Patrick Henry" wrote in message news:AUmz5.9320$hD4.1871441@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > You think you're so clever but are only repeating the > prevailing cliches on both accounts.... Obviously > beyond your level.... > > I wouldn't contribute a nickel to the bahai faith today > given the way the uhj distorts Baha'u'llah's Teachings. > Apparently many, MANY thousands of other American > bahais feel the same way this year.... > > Your attempts at smearing my character, Professor Juan > Cole, and others are quite pathetic. The non-bahai > observer seeking the truth of what is really going on won't > be fooled by you and your cohort of liars.... > > Incidentally, like so many academics today, though I don't > believe you really are one in the proper sense, you haven't a > clue regarding what business is really all about.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > > "Smaneck" wrote in message > news:20000924015337.16269.00001190@ng-cg1.aol.com... > > >Notice how deftly she dismisses the basic freedom > > >and rights of others... > > > > Dear Fred, > > > > I am so sorry that you have been deprived of the basic freedom to > contribute > > all that money you are making selling Real Estate to the construction of > the > > Arc on Mt. Carmel. I'm also sorry you have lost your right to eat cookies > and > > drink tea while listening to tapes of Robert Henderson's exciting Feast > > letters. > > > > I hope you can adjust. > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 11:05 AM Subject: Re: Cathy Freeman - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! "Bruce" wrote in message news:8qjg2c$q7c$1@grandprime.binc.net... > I have no idea why Fred feels he must do > this, other than he is a bit unbalanced and a bit of a jerk. I hate think I > got caught up in his spamming behavior. Very rude of you, really. I've never referred to you in such terms nor derided your views on Buddhism and the bahai faith. You owe me an apology. My crossposts to soc.culture.israel, soc.culture.iranian, and talk.religion.misc are entirely within the acceptable parameters for crossposting to newsgroups related to the subject at hand: the bahai faith began in Iran, the major bahai religious sites and institutions are located there, and all religions may join discussion on trm. It should be evident to any intelligent person that fundamentalists have a hidden agenda and their self-interest in mind when they malign me and many, many other people on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, and elsewhere. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they'll have to get used to it. Their slandering me for "spamming" also won't prevent perceptive people from realizing what's really going on. Those interested in judging independently for themselves my background and whether I'm "unbalanced" may do so by reading my Biographical Note: https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 11:28 AM Subject: Re: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000924014505.16269.00001189@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >Do you think spamming irrelevant newsgroups with 54 posts on bahai > >in one day presents a good impression of Bahai? > > David, > > It would be much more effective if you would collect all of Fred's spam and > send it to abuse@bigfoot.com and abuse@yahoo.com than to do all this spamming> yourself. My crossposts to soc.culture.israel, soc.culture.iranian, and talk.religion.misc are entirely within the acceptable parameters for crossposting to newsgroups related to the subject at hand: the bahai faith BEGAN in Iran, the major bahai religious sites and institutions are LOCATED there, and all religions may be DISCUSSED on trm. It should be evident to any intelligent person that fundamentalists have a hidden agenda and their self-interest in mind when they malign me and many, many other people on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, and elsewhere. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they're having more than a little trouble getting used to it. Their slandering me for "spamming" also won't prevent perceptive people from realizing what's really going on. Those interested in judging independently for themselves my background may do so by reading my Biographical Note: https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm Those interested in reading the record of Susan Maneck's activities which many believe are against freedom of speech and conscience on AOL and elsewhere may read https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/AOL.htm https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/AOLcensorship.txt https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/Maneck1.htm Garbage: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/Maneck3.htm Litter: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/Maneck7.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 11:33 AM Subject: Re: What $cientology Wants from YOU Sounds like the bahai faith. -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "An Metet" wrote in message news:78bb8ec017cdc90a49f2d8eeb1998142@mixmaster.shinn.net... > What does $cientology want from you? > > The answer is simple. They want your MONEY. They want all > the money you have. Once they have you hooked on their > "auditing" (very expensive counselling techniques sold > through high-pressure, false promises and manipulation), > they will expect you to empty your bank account and cash in > all your investments to pay for it. They will expect you to > sell everything you own and give the money to them. It > doesn't matter if you only partly own it, like your home. > So long as you have any financial control over its > disposal, they'll find a means of taking it. How can they > do this? By brainwashing you into believing their > "religion," which convinces you that material things are > worthless compared to the "total freedom" and spiritual > salvation they alone can deliver. > > But all the money you have is not enough for the "church" > of $cientology. Even if you have given them everything you > have and have even remortgaged your home they will still > want more. They will pressure and manipulate you into > taking out loans, and even arrrange them for you. They will > teach you what lies to tell to obtain the loans, and will > accompany you to make sure you don't back out of it. They > will pressure you into borrowing to the maximum possible > extent. They will insist on going through your finances in > detail to find out everything you earn and everything you > spend your money on. They will work out how you could spend > less, such as fewer vacations and less spent on leisure > activities. They will want to know the maximum you can > afford to pay a week in paying off the loan they will > pressure you into taking out. They will arrange for you to > get the maximum loan you can possibly afford to repay, and > will take all that money from you. They want it NOW of > course, not tomorrow or next week. If they think you can > borrow $100,000, they will persuade you to take out a > bridging loan with your bank. Forgot the bank's phone > number? No problem to a $cientology registrar, well trained > in taking every cent possible from you through high > pressure and psychological manipulation. The $cientology > registrar will phone directory assistance and find out the > bank's number for you. He or she will then call that number > and put the phone in your hand while it is still ringing. > He will watch you closely as you talk to the bank manager > to arrange the bridging loan, and tell you exactly what lie > to tell when the manager asks what you need the money for. > > But all the money you have and all the money you can borrow > is not > enough for $cientology. They will pry further, finding out > if you have any trust funds set up for your children by > their grandparents, and whether you > have financial control over them. If so they will arrange > for you to > cash in those trust funds and give the money to them. They > will tell you exactly what to say. They will find the phone > number of the firm keeping the funds, then call that number > and put the phone in your hand while it is still ringing, > watching you closely as you talk to them. > > But all the money you have, all the money you can borrow, > and all your > children's money for their future is not enough for the > "church" of $cientology. They will want to know how much > your parents will leave you when they die. They will > persuade you to talk to your parents and persuade them to > hand over as much of that money as possible now. Not next > year, not next month, but today. They will ask you for your > parents' phone number, dial that number and put the phone > in your hand. They will be scrutinizing you as you speak to > make sure you say the right things to your parents to get > the money from them. And if your parents agree to give you > money they will want it immediately. They will work out a > way they can get it transfered from your parents' account > to your account and then to $cientology in less than an > hour. They will have you phone your parents again if > necessary to pressure them into agreement. They say they > don't have a fax? Well what about them phoning up their > bank to tell them they are coming, then taking a taxi there > to sign a form for an electronic funds transfer to your > account? Then they'll have you contact your own bank to > find out when the transfer has cleared, and then sign the > forms for the transfer of the money to $cientology's > account. > > $CIENTOLOGY WANTS YOUR MONEY. ALL OF IT. NOW. And they'll > use any and every lie and trick there is to get it. And if > you think you'll ever get anything of worth from them in > exchange for giving all you have, you are an even bigger > sucker than they take you for. > > LEARN MORE ABOUT THIS CRIMINAL CON-GAME CULT AT THESE > WEBSITES: > https://www.xenu.net > https://www.scientology-kills.org > https://www.scientology-lies.com > https://www.entheta.org > https://www.factnet.org/Scientology > www.xenuTV.com > www.users.wineasy.se/noname/multimed > https://www.infoman.demon.co.uk/cicmain.html > https://www.shassan.com > Follow the links to more websites. > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 7:54 PM Subject: Re: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Thank you, Michael, once again for your nack of finding the right words. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Michael McKenny" wrote in message news:8qle0b$llf$1@freenet9.carleton.ca... > Hi, Susan. Uhm: > the right to vote, be elected, consult in meetings, to serve the religion > in a collective capacity, indeed to be considered one of the community. > It ought not be ignored that one darn effective method of holding on > to power would be for those who have power to identify the most capable > other individuals in the organization and in some way drive them out and > define them as outside the organization. There are other techniques of > those holding power in Baha'i that political observers can readily note > as effective, not in a democratic, but in a power-holder preserving way. > The fact no one holding power on the UHJ has ever been defeated in a > Baha'i election and almost no US NSA member, despite annual elections, > has been defeated in the past 40 years testify to the success of these > techniques. As to be expected, the power-holders in Baha'i insist such > techniques are among the holy of holies, most sanctified unalterable (at > least for 1,000 years) aspects of the religion. > Such an interpretation would be more acceptable, if their continued > domination of power had not resulted in such a mess. Other understandings > are valid and it is only to be expected that these guys will sooner or > later will be history. > Cheers, > Michael > > > Smaneck (smaneck@aol.com) writes: > >>Let me also state unequivocally that I have no desire > >>nor would I ever attend any bahai event such as "feast" > > > > Well since that is the only "right and freedom" they are empowered to take > > away, what are you complaining about? > > > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 7:56 PM Subject: Re: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! So now the uhj is declaring marriages null & void!! -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Thirinel" wrote in message news:#0mZl9kJAHA.279@cpmsnbbsa07... > Actually Susan, I think that in losing one's administrative rights, one also > loses the ability to have a Baha'i marriage -- this is something that is not > imposed on non-members of the Baha'i Community. > Alma > Smaneck wrote in message <20000924123007.26592.00001129@ng-ch1.aol.com>... > >>Let me also state unequivocally that I have no desire > >>nor would I ever attend any bahai event such as "feast" > > > >Well since that is the only "right and freedom" they are empowered to take > >away, what are you complaining about? > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 6:47 AM Subject: Re: Cathy Freeman - Cos I'm Free.... You're changing your story about the bahai ao taking away her administrative rights? -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nima Hazini" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 7:11 PM Subject: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! > Aboriginal Baha'i and OZ's great track athelete, Kathy Freeman, lights the > Olympic torch! Now someone explain for me who the Einstein was in the AO who > took her administrative rights away?! > > cheers, > Nima > > wrote in message news:8qmt80$ko0$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Umm, Fred, in all fairness, the UHJ hasn't done anything to Cathy > Freeman. > > cheers, > Nima > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 6:56 AM Subject: [ bahai ] START HERE - NEWCOMERS Given the incessant character attacks on American and UK academics and others by bahai fundamentalists, if newcomers to talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai desire not to be deceived, it will require more than a passing glance at a few messages. I suggest you begin with the links below which provide a historical survey of the last several years of bahai censorship and then visit further my and Professor Cole's websites. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Bahai Technique ---- Essential Reading https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/technique.htm soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations Documenting Censorship https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/srb-bq.htm alt.religion.bahai & talk.religion.bahai FAQ https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/FAQ.htm Bahai Attacks & Bullying https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/BahaiAttacksonme.htm Bahai Threats of Lawsuits & Censorship on AOL https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/BahaiThreatsLawsuit.htm Discussion Agenda for Talk.Religion.Bahai https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/DiscussionAgendaTrb.htm False Membership Statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/FalseStats.htm Continuing Harassment 1/31/2000 https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/CHarassment.htm uhj LIES to United Nations & US Government June 2000 https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/UN.htm bahais at United Nations Millennium Forum & Summit June 2000 https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/UN2.htm To uhj 12-10-1999https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/uhj12-10-99.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/UHJ72498.htm To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, surveys the many incidents of bahai censorship that have taken place during the last few decades in "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 7:06 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Cos I'm Free.... Brave New World.... The ezine Brave New World satirizes the stripping of Cathy Freeman's "administrative rights" by the bahai clergy: https://www.bahai.us.com/ -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 7:23 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Cos I'm Free.... Changing your story too, huh? -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20000924203136.16295.00001375@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >bahai attempts to suppress knowledge of what the > >uhj has done to Cathy Freeman > > What evidence do you have that the House of Justice did anything to Cathy > Freeman? They don't usually get involved in this kind of thing. COMPARE: > In article <20000921003218.08907.00000121@ng-fi1.aol.com>, > smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > >Anyway, the initial point stands, and attracting and > > >_keeping_ "people of capacity" (even when they're atheletes) should > be a consistent policy followed throughout. > > > > I have to echo, Pat's sentiment. Do we give special treatment to > famous atheletes you should get special treatment in relationship to Baha'i > law? > > > > As to the question as to why her rights haven't yet been restored, > did she ask for them? And again I say one must ask for one's "rights"!! ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 12:49 PM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Deprived of bahai "rights" She and thousands of others.... For details see my bahai webpage. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 12:58 PM Subject: Re: Cathy Freeman - Cos I'm Free.... Non-bahai observers should be aware that there is more than a little damage control going on in the bahai newsgroups at the moment.... Other victims fo the fundamentalist "universal" house of "justice": To uhj 12-10-1999 https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/uhj12-10-99.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/UHJ72498.htm To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Patrick Henry" wrote in message news:fxGz5.10190$hD4.2293120@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > Changing your story too, huh? > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > > "Susan Maneck " wrote in message > news:20000924203136.16295.00001375@ng-cg1.aol.com... > > >bahai attempts to suppress knowledge of what the > > >uhj has done to Cathy Freeman > > > > What evidence do you have that the House of Justice did anything to Cathy > > Freeman? They don't usually get involved in this kind of thing. > > COMPARE: > > > In article <20000921003218.08907.00000121@ng-fi1.aol.com>, > > smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > > >Anyway, the initial point stands, and attracting and > > > >_keeping_ "people of capacity" (even when they're atheletes) should > > be a consistent policy followed throughout. > > > > > > I have to echo, Pat's sentiment. Do we give special treatment to > > famous atheletes you should get special treatment in relationship to > Baha'i > > law? > > > > > > As to the question as to why her rights haven't yet been restored, > > did she ask for them? > > And again I say one must ask for one's "rights"!! > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2000 1:10 PM Subject: Cathy Freeman - Cos I'm Free.... DEPRIVED OF VOTING RIGHTS (was Re: no different than) And there was nothing "aggressive" about the cruel and abusive treatment visited upon all the victims of the fundamentalist "universal" house of "justice"? Including now Cathy Freeman? To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/UHJ72498.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/uhj12-10-99.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Eire" wrote in message news:01c02747$06f5b0a0$94f9869f@default... > I've been quietly following this "discussion", and with all due respect, I > find it extremely unhelpful and absolutist. We should be bringing people > closer together, in the knowledge that there are many paths to "God", to > fulfilment. And in order to do so, we must celebrate our own religious > traditions, while including without constantly bombarding those of other > faiths or belief systems with narrow theological points of contention and > so on. That, to my mind, defeats the very central purpose of Baha'i Faith. > The love, and the universality of the Faith is contradicted immeasurably > by what would appear to my mind aggressive arguments. > > Sincerely, > Éire > > Bruce wrote in article > <8qoeh3$fg0$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > > David, > > > > > "Ball's in your court dude." < ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 6:26 AM Subject: Re: Cathy Freeman - Cos I'm Free.... dltjxx is certainly in my Message Rules along with the majority of my fellow bahais who are fundamentalists.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:8qs7ul$n1g$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > Dear dltjxx, > > May I recommend you just put Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com in your filters and > thus not have to be subjected to his spamming?! > > cheers, > Nima > > dltjxx wrote in message > news:8qp62r$vl7$1@slb1.atl.mindspring.net... > > Please stop spamming soc.culture.iranian and soc.culture.israel > > with your unwanted, off-topic posts. > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > In "Patrick Henry" > > <> >Changing your story too, huh? > > > > > >-- > > >Frederick Glaysher > > >www.fglaysher.com > > > > fglaysher - is that some kind of alternate spelling of feygalah? > > > > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > > >https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > > > > > > > >"Susan Maneck " wrote in message > > >news:20000924203136.16295.00001375@ng-cg1.aol.com... > > >> >bahai attempts to suppress knowledge of what the > > >> >uhj has done to Cathy Freeman > > >> > > >> What evidence do you have that the House of Justice did anything to > > Cathy > > >> Freeman? They don't usually get involved in this kind of thing. > > > > > >COMPARE: > > > > > >> In article <20000921003218.08907.00000121@ng-fi1.aol.com>, > > >> smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > >> > >Anyway, the initial point stands, and attracting and > > >> > >_keeping_ "people of capacity" (even when they're atheletes) > > should > > >> be a consistent policy followed throughout. > > >> > > > >> > I have to echo, Pat's sentiment. Do we give special treatment to > > >> famous atheletes you should get special treatment in relationship to > > >Baha'i > > >> law? > > >> > > > >> > As to the question as to why her rights haven't yet been restored, > > >> did she ask for them? > > > > > >And again I say one must ask for one's "rights"!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 6:37 AM Subject: Re: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! Let me also state unequivocally that I have no desire nor would I ever attend any bahai event such as "feast" given the oppression and coercion that the uhj has wreaked on many people now for over a decade.... The non-bahai observer may find the details on my bahai website. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000924123007.26592.00001129@ng-ch1.aol.com... > >Let me also state unequivocally that I have no desire > >nor would I ever attend any bahai event such as "feast" > > Well since that is the only "right and freedom" they are empowered to take > away, what are you complaining about? ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 6:38 AM Subject: Re: Cathy Freeman __ Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! You think you're so clever but are only repeating the prevailing cliches on both accounts.... Obviously beyond your level.... I wouldn't contribute a nickel to the bahai faith today given the way the uhj distorts Baha'u'llah's Teachings. Apparently many, MANY thousands of other American bahais feel the same way this year.... Your attempts at smearing my character, Professor Juan Cole, and others are quite pathetic. The non-bahai observer seeking the truth of what is really going on won't be fooled by you and your cohort of liars.... Incidentally, like so many academics today, though I don't believe you really are one in the proper sense, you haven't a clue regarding what business is really all about.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000924015337.16269.00001190@ng-cg1.aol.com... > >Notice how deftly she dismisses the basic freedom > >and rights of others... > > Dear Fred, > > I am so sorry that you have been deprived of the basic freedom to contribute > all that money you are making selling Real Estate to the construction of the > Arc on Mt. Carmel. I'm also sorry you have lost your right to eat cookies and > drink tea while listening to tapes of Robert Henderson's exciting Feast > letters. > > I hope you can adjust. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 6:45 AM Subject: Maneck's deceptions.... Your attempts at smearing my character, Professor Juan Cole, and others are quite pathetic. The non-bahai observer seeking the truth of what is really going on won't be fooled by you and your cohort of liars.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20000926223517.26876.00002285@ng-md1.aol.com... > >Has anyone tried > >just ignoring Mr. Henry. > > Well, yeah, but the spamming keeps on going. The only real solution is to > report this to abuse@bigfoot.com and abuse@yahoo.com. > > > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 6:50 AM Subject: Re: To Frederick Glaysher/"Patrick Henry" Your motives are false and deceitful--two faced as can be. Non-bahai observes can see right through you and your fellow fundamentalists and what you're trying to hide.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Smaneck" wrote in message news:20000924122906.26592.00001127@ng-ch1.aol.com... > >Please stop spamming irrelevant NGs with your off-topic and > >unwanted garbage. > > > > Please, David, we don't need two spammers. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 6:55 AM Subject: Cathy Freeman - lost generation - Re: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! The non-bahai trying to figure out what's really going on regarding Cathy Freeman should consider the message quoted below and compare it with the smoke screen created by Ms Susan Maneck and other bahais attempting to hide the truth of the bahai officials depriving Freeman of her voting rights for speaking out about the lost generation.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Nima Hazini" wrote in message news:8pudkn$l4g$1@gnamma.connect.com.au... > Aboriginal Baha'i and OZ's great track athelete, Kathy Freeman, lights the > Olympic torch! Now someone explain for me who the Einstein was in the AO who > took her administrative rights away?! > > cheers, > Nima > > > > ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 7:03 AM To: Juan Cole Subject: Website address change Please consider updating your link at https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/bahaixf.htm to my website address below. -- Frederick Glaysher The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 8:17 AM Subject: [ bahai ] Manipulation of governments More bahai double speak and deception given the treatment Cathy Freeman and many other bahais receive from the "administrative" "order": -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ----- https://www.uga.edu/bahai/News/031800-2.html Published: Saturday, March 18, 2000 WORTH HEARING``It seem the world has no conscience when it comes to human life. When the West wants to intervene militarily anywhere in the world, they get there in record time.'' -- Graca Machel, former first lady of Mozambique and now wife of Nelson Mandela, former South African president, commenting on the slow response of Western governments to aid her country in the wake of catastrophic floods as quoted by the Associated Press. U.S. demands freedom for Bahais in Iran The U.S. government has called for the United Nations to condemn Iran's persecution of members of the Bahai faith. According to the Commission on International Religious Freedom, a revolutionary court has sentenced three members of the Bahai faith to death for unspecified anti-security acts three different times. Iran's supreme court overturned the charges after the first two arrests but the men have now been detained again and await execution. The men were arrested for holding monthly Bahai ``family life'' meetings. The Bahai faith claims 6.4 million members around the world and teaches that all religions lead to the path of truth. Believers stress peace and the unity of all faiths. But in Iran the religion is considered a heresy of Islam, and Baha'i believers have been persecuted and executed for decades. ``The Bahais on death row must be freed without delay and the systemic persecution of the Bahai community must stop,'' said the chairman of the Commission on Religious Freedom, David Saperstein. ``The Iranian government should understand that the world is watching.'' -- Clark Morphew, staff writer ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 10:32 AM To: editor@dailycampus.com; editor@siu.edu; daily-iowan@uiowa.edu; ke892194@oak.cats.ohiou.edu; gwalsh@globe.com; localnews@globe.com; feedback@charlotte.com; sfuqua@cimedia.com; letter@twtmail.com; daily.letters@umich.edu; World@MSNBC.com; nigelw@suntimes.com; msato@pla-net.net; info@hoosiertimes.com; info@enews.com; bmw@pilotonline.com; campbels@metronet.lib.mi.us; chronfeedback@sfgate.com; clay@panix.com; comments@www.azcentral.com; conedit@ajc.com; dwaink@on-net.net; dwyatt@pioneerpress.com; Editor Reuters; editor@clari.net; feedback@al.com; hci@chron.com; info@gilc.org; info@ifea.net; jrnledit@ajc.com; lawya@leeds.ac.uk; Letters to Editor; letters@courant.com; letters@latimes.com; letters@newsday.com; letters@sjmercury.com; letters@suntimes.com; news@freedomforum.org; newsfeedback@wired.com; newsroom@timesnewspapers.com; ohio@akron.infi.net; oped@csps.com; pfaw@pfaw.org; PortlandPaper@server.nlis.net; rcfp@rcfp.org; release@starnews.com; sun@sunnews.com; United Press International; vtw@vtw.org; webmaster@ciec.org; webmaster@netcaucus.org; wlundy@pioneerpress.com; wsjcontact@cor.dowjones.com; wtree@acs.wooster.edu; dailydemo@decaturnet.com; cnssd@aol.com; cnn.onair@cnn.com; spectator@columbia.edu; letters@baltsun.com; feedback@thewire.ap.org; news@cleveland.com; editors@phillynews.com; wsn@nyu.edu; talbot@bcn.boulder.co.us; daletter@mail.sdsu.edu Subject: NEWSRELEASE - Cathy Freeman - Deprived of Bahai Voting Rights for Support of Lost Generation FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Frederick Glaysher : 248-651-3380 Olympic Champion Cathy Freeman has been deprived of her voting rights in the Bahai Faith for her involvement and support of the cause of the Lost Generation of the Australian aborigines. Voting rights include the right to vote, be elected, consult in meetings, to serve the Baha'i religion in a collective capacity, indeed to be considered one of the community, as well as receive a Baha'i marriage. For further details see talk.religion.bahai on Usenet or The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 10:32 AM Subject: NEWSRELEASE - Cathy Freeman - Deprived of Bahai Voting Rights for Support of Lost Generation FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Frederick Glaysher : 248-651-3380 Olympic Champion Cathy Freeman has been deprived of her voting rights in the Bahai Faith for her involvement and support of the cause of the Lost Generation of the Australian aborigines. Voting rights include the right to vote, be elected, consult in meetings, to serve the Baha'i religion in a collective capacity, indeed to be considered one of the community, as well as receive a Baha'i marriage. For further details see talk.religion.bahai on Usenet or The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 10:34 AM To: daletter@mail.sdsu.edu; talbot@bcn.boulder.co.us; wsn@nyu.edu; editors@phillynews.com; news@cleveland.com; feedback@thewire.ap.org; letters@baltsun.com; spectator@columbia.edu; cnn.onair@cnn.com; cnssd@aol.com; dailydemo@decaturnet.com; wtree@acs.wooster.edu; wsjcontact@cor.dowjones.com; wlundy@pioneerpress.com; webmaster@netcaucus.org; webmaster@ciec.org; vtw@vtw.org; United Press International; sun@sunnews.com; release@starnews.com; rcfp@rcfp.org; PortlandPaper@server.nlis.net; pfaw@pfaw.org; oped@csps.com; ohio@akron.infi.net; newsroom@timesnewspapers.com; newsfeedback@wired.com; news@freedomforum.org; New York Times; letters@suntimes.com; letters@sjmercury.com; letters@newsday.com; letters@latimes.com; letters@courant.com; lawya@leeds.ac.uk; jrnledit@ajc.com; info@ifea.net; info@gilc.org; hci@chron.com; feedback@al.com; editor@clari.net; Editor Reuters; dwyatt@pioneerpress.com; dwaink@on-net.net; conedit@ajc.com; comments@www.azcentral.com; clay@panix.com; chronfeedback@sfgate.com; campbels@metronet.lib.mi.us; bmw@pilotonline.com; info@enews.com; info@hoosiertimes.com; msato@pla-net.net; nigelw@suntimes.com; World@MSNBC.com; daily.letters@umich.edu; letter@twtmail.com; sfuqua@cimedia.com; feedback@charlotte.com; localnews@globe.com; gwalsh@globe.com; ke892194@oak.cats.ohiou.edu; daily-iowan@uiowa.edu; editor@siu.edu; editor@dailycampus.com Subject: Media Release - Cathy Freeman - Deprived of Baha'i Voting Rights for Support of Lost Generation FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Frederick Glaysher : 248-651-3380 Olympic Champion Cathy Freeman has been deprived of her voting rights in the Bahai Faith for her involvement and support of the cause of the Lost Generation of the Australian aborigines. Voting rights include the right to vote, be elected, consult in meetings, to serve the Baha'i religion in a collective capacity, indeed to be considered one of the community, as well as receive a Baha'i marriage. For further details see talk.religion.bahai on Usenet or The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 11:26 AM To: New York Times Subject: News Release - Cathy Freeman - Deprived of Baha'i Voting Rights for Support of Lost Generation FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Frederick Glaysher : 248-651-3380 Olympic Champion Cathy Freeman has been deprived of her voting rights in the Bahai Faith for her involvement and support of the cause of the Lost Generation of the Australian aborigines. Voting rights include the right to vote, be elected, consult in meetings, to serve the Baha'i religion in a collective capacity, indeed to be considered one of the community, as well as receive a Baha'i marriage. For further details see talk.religion.bahai on Usenet or The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 11:58 AM Subject: Prof. Juan Cole' Modernity & Millennium See my review of his book on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-reviews/-/AJG3OFH9N4HDP/1/ref %3Dcm%5Fmp%5Frv/102-8996906-9840960 or link off my literary website. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 12:13 PM Subject: Re: Cathy Freeman - The bahai Technique > "Brii P.R." (brieze_way@nospam.hotmail.com) writes: > > I new to this newsgroup so forgive my studpid question: Has anyone tried > > just ignoring Mr. Henry. > > > > This tactic worked on Bullies at my elementary school. Quite laughable since the real bullies on talk.religion.bahai have been and are the fundamentalists among my co-religionists. The non-Bahai will note that my fellow Bahais only continue, with renewed ferocity, their attempts to silence and suppress what they don't want you to know about: Incessant Bahai attacks upon my freedom of speech and liberty, as well as on others, have made it necessary for me to adopt a persona for my own protection and well being. Other measures have been taken. During the late winter and spring of 1999, Bahais twice flooded my hotmail account with up to 1000 messages per day resulting in considerable inconvenience and expenditure of time and effort to block, and ultimately close, the offending accounts; they have, by using numerous Bahai trolls, especially Gyr Falcon, slandered, maligned, and caricatured me in a further effort to discredit me and portray me on talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere as a disturbed and errant individual; through concerted false charges and allegations against me, they have now succeeded in deceiving Hotmail into closing my email account, which I depended on for a considerable part of my income and livelihood. For documentation of many similar incidents of Bahai oppression during the last decade, see The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/bahai.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- BULLYING: I'm alarmed at the Bahai attempts, during May of 1999, at character assassination, ridicule, and generally portraying me and others as disturbed individuals. This tactic has been used for over three years and continues to be used against me and other Bahais and non-Bahais or ex-Bahais on and off talk.religion.bahai. I have never claimed to be perfect. At times I have apologized to Bahais, Muslims, and other non-Bahais when I felt, or was convinced, that I was wrong or hadspoken unfairly. I find the constant technique to portray me as a megalomanic or paranoid quite offensive. Similarly, the tactic of accusing me of spam for posting my opinions is calculated to discredit the validity of my and others' concerns regarding censorship in Bahai forums and has also been used on AOL. Such accusations reveal the frustration that Bahai fundamentalists apparently feel over my having found ways of enduring and resisting the onslaught of their concerted attacks, while preserving a historical record on a markedly ephermeral medium for innocent Bahais and non-Bahais.... Fair-minded Bahai and non-Bahai observers may judge for themselves whether my and others' allegations of censorship are valid by reading the record preserved under "Assorted Controversial Documents" on my website at https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/bahai.htm As further corroboration that I am not the only person concerned with the intolerance and censorship that has overtaken the Bahai Faith, I recommend Professor Juan Cole's new book Modernity & the Millennium: The Genesis of the Bahai Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East, available through Columbia University Press or Amazon.com at https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0231110812/002-4036721-8058448 In his conclusion, which would never have passed the system of Bahai "review" that the UHJ imposes on all publications brought out under its tight control, Professor Cole, of the Department of History at The University of Michigan, quite accurately identifies the distortions that have been wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings: "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriachy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth- century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed." (196) He himself and many others, as evidence under the"Assorted Controversial Documents," have suffered at the hands of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the religion: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement." (201) These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on AOL, talk.religion.bahai, and alt.religion.bahai for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. The UHJ is also in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums of public discussion. I recommend all newcomers to these matters read "The Bahai Technique": https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/technique.htm On The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 8:32 PM Subject: Re: s.c.i.fredglaysher (was: Killfile the fantasy writer) "The Bahai Technique": https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20000927182123.26656.00002738@ng-ch1.aol.com... > >So, I'm encouraging killfile for a month or two > > Pat, > > Don't you think complaining to his ISP would be even more effective? I mean if > everyone did that as often as they respond to his posts, how much of this would > he be able to continue to do? > > warmest, > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 8:35 PM Subject: Why I don't respond to fundamentalists After over four years of observing their tactics, I've learnt a few things about the way they operate: 1. Always smear and attack the individual. 2. Lure into supposed discussion then cut the jugular. 3. Work together to create the perception for non-bahais that the individual is unbalanced, aberrant, etc.... 4. Change or ignore the subject. Finally, it's simple a waste of time and energy, as long as the uhj uses "review" to suppress all free thought and discussion and encourages such unseemly tactics. Further details at "The Bahai Technique": https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Alma.Rosas@chron.com[SMTP:Alma.Rosas@chron.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 1:23 PM To: FG@home.com Subject: RE: Media Release - Cathy Freeman - Deprived of Baha'i Voting Rights for Support of Lost Generation Thank you for contacting the Houston Chronicle. Your message has been fowarded to the Religion Section. If you have additional questions or problems, our customer service representatives are available to help you from 8:00 A.M. to 5:00 P.M. Monday through Friday. Our telephone number is 713.220.2700. You may also contact us via e-mail at online@chron.com. Thank you, Alma Rosas Online Customer Service Representative https://www.HoustonChronicle.com -----Original Message----- From: Fred Glaysher [mailto:FG@home.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 10:35 AM To: online@chron.com; daletter@mail.sdsu.edu; talbot@bcn.boulder.co.us; wsn@nyu.edu; editors@phillynews.com; news@cleveland.com; feedback@thewire.ap.org; letters@baltsun.com; spectator@columbia.edu; cnn.onair@cnn.com; cnssd@aol.com; dailydemo@decaturnet.com; wtree@acs.wooster.edu; wsjcontact@cor.dowjones.com; wlundy@pioneerpress.com; webmaster@netcaucus.org; webmaster@ciec.org; vtw@vtw.org; United Press International; sun@sunnews.com; release@starnews.com; rcfp@rcfp.org; PortlandPaper@server.nlis.net; pfaw@pfaw.org; oped@csps.com; ohio@akron.infi.net; newsroom@timesnewspapers.com; newsfeedback@wired.com; news@freedomforum.org; New York Times; letters@suntimes.com; letters@sjmercury.com; letters@newsday.com; letters@latimes.com; letters@courant.com; lawya@leeds.ac.uk; jrnledit@ajc.com; info@ifea.net; info@gilc.org; hci@chron.com; feedback@al.com; editor@clari.net; Editor Reuters; dwyatt@pioneerpress.com; dwaink@on-net.net; conedit@ajc.com; comments@www.azcentral.com; clay@panix.com; chronfeedback@sfgate.com; campbels@metronet.lib.mi.us; bmw@pilotonline.com; info@enews.com; info@hoosiertimes.com; msato@pla-net.net; nigelw@suntimes.com; World@MSNBC.com; daily.letters@umich.edu; letter@twtmail.com; sfuqua@cimedia.com; feedback@charlotte.com; localnews@globe.com; gwalsh@globe.com; ke892194@oak.cats.ohiou.edu; daily-iowan@uiowa.edu; editor@siu.edu; editor@dailycampus.com Subject: Media Release - Cathy Freeman - Deprived of Baha'i Voting Rights for Support of Lost Generation FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Frederick Glaysher : 248-651-3380 Olympic Champion Cathy Freeman has been deprived of her voting rights in the Bahai Faith for her involvement and support of the cause of the Lost Generation of the Australian aborigines. Voting rights include the right to vote, be elected, consult in meetings, to serve the Baha'i religion in a collective capacity, indeed to be considered one of the community, as well as receive a Baha'i marriage. For further details see talk.religion.bahai on Usenet or The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 6:07 AM To: Wall Street Journal Subject: News Release - Cathy Freeman - Deprived of Bahai Voting Rights for Support of Lost Generation FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Frederick Glaysher : 248-651-3380 Olympic Champion Cathy Freeman has been deprived of her voting rights in the Bahai Faith for her involvement and support of the cause of the Lost Generation of the Australian aborigines. Voting rights include the right to vote, be elected, consult in meetings, to serve the Baha'i religion in a collective capacity, indeed to be considered one of the community, as well as receive a Baha'i marriage. For further details see talk.religion.bahai on Usenet or The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 6:26 AM Subject: Re: NEWSRELEASE - Cathy Freeman - Deprived of Bahai Voting Rights for Support of Lost Generation Note well that the facts are not in dispute despite what those bahais who are attempting to deceive are saying. See the evidence below. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nima Hazini" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai,alt.religion.bahai Sent: Friday, September 15, 2000 7:11 PM Subject: BAHA'I LIGHTS OLYMPIC TORCH! > Aboriginal Baha'i and OZ's great track athelete, Kathy Freeman, lights the > Olympic torch! Now someone explain for me who the Einstein was in the AO who took her administrative rights away?! > > cheers, > Nima ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 6:31 AM Subject: Re: NEWSRELEASE - Cathy Freeman - Deprived of Bahai Voting Rights for Support of Lost Generation Note well the acknowledgement of the FACTS: > In article <20000921003218.08907.00000121@ng-fi1.aol.com>, > smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > > > As to the question as to why her rights haven't yet been restored, > did she ask for them? -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20000927233129.26598.00002374@ng-ch1.aol.com... > >I can't believe Fred is saying this. > > I wonder who was the Einstein who opened this can of worms to begin with. > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 6:36 AM Subject: Re: Cathy Freeman - The bahai Technique ||||||| (* *) oOOo-----(_)-----oOOo | DoN'T fEeD | | tHe | | TrOlls | +--oooO--------Oooo--+ ( ) ( ) | ( ) | (__) (__) "The Bahai Technique": https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Brii P.R." wrote in message news:39D23101.3CEBA8A0@nospam.hotmail.com... > For the record I am a Bahá'í (24 years ago). > > Your spamming in this newsgroup was much to great for me to risk > providing my regular email address. It is unfortunate that you have been > hurt by others, but it is not fair to continue this accusatory stance, > harsh and abrasive tones with this group; members come and go and new, > like myself have no clue why you are so angry. > > If you are trying to persuade others to your side, as you believe that > your side is the truth, you might try a little more honey and a lot less > vinegar. > > Brii P.R. > > > > Patrick Henry wrote: > > > > > "Brii P.R." (brieze_way@nospam.hotmail.com) writes: > > > > I new to this newsgroup so forgive my studpid question: Has anyone tried > > > > just ignoring Mr. Henry. > > > > > > > > This tactic worked on Bullies at my elementary school. > > > > Quite laughable since the real bullies on talk.religion.bahai > > have been and are the fundamentalists among my > > co-religionists. > > > > The non-Bahai will note that my fellow Bahais only continue, > > with renewed ferocity, their attempts to silence and suppress > > what they don't want you to know about: > > > > Incessant Bahai attacks upon my freedom of speech > > and liberty, as well as on others, have made it necessary for > > me to adopt a persona for my own protection and well being. > > Other measures have been taken. > > > > During the late winter and spring of 1999, Bahais twice flooded > > my hotmail account with up to 1000 messages per day > > resulting in considerable inconvenience and expenditure > > of time and effort to block, and ultimately close, the > > offending accounts; they have, by using numerous Bahai trolls, > > especially Gyr Falcon, slandered, maligned, and caricatured > > me in a further effort to discredit me and portray me on > > talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere as a disturbed and errant > > individual; through concerted false charges and allegations against > > me, they have now succeeded in deceiving Hotmail into closing > > my email account, which I depended on for a considerable > > part of my income and livelihood. > > > > For documentation of many similar incidents of Bahai oppression > > during the last decade, see The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of > > Conscience: > > > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > BULLYING: > > > > I'm alarmed at the Bahai attempts, during May of 1999, > > at character assassination, ridicule, and generally > > portraying me and others as disturbed individuals. This > > tactic has been used for over three years and continues > > to be used against me and other Bahais and non-Bahais > > or ex-Bahais on and off talk.religion.bahai. > > > > I have never claimed to be perfect. At times I have > > apologized to Bahais, Muslims, and other non-Bahais > > when I felt, or was convinced, that I was wrong or hadspoken unfairly. I > > find the constant technique to portray > > me as a megalomanic or paranoid quite offensive. > > > > Similarly, the tactic of accusing me of spam for posting > > my opinions is calculated to discredit the validity of my and > > others' concerns regarding censorship in Bahai forums and > > has also been used on AOL. Such accusations reveal the > > frustration that Bahai fundamentalists apparently feel over > > my having found ways of enduring and resisting the onslaught of > > their concerted attacks, while preserving a historical record on > > a markedly ephermeral medium for innocent Bahais and > > non-Bahais.... > > > > Fair-minded Bahai and non-Bahai observers may > > judge for themselves whether my and others' allegations of > > censorship are valid by reading the record preserved under > > "Assorted Controversial Documents" on my website at > > > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > As further corroboration that I am not the only person > > concerned with the intolerance and censorship that has > > overtaken the Bahai Faith, I recommend Professor Juan Cole's > > new book Modernity & the Millennium: The Genesis of the > > Bahai Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East, available > > through Columbia University Press or Amazon.com at > > > > https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0231110812/002-4036721-8058448 > > > > In his conclusion, which would never have passed the > > system of Bahai "review" that the UHJ imposes on all > > publications brought out under its tight control, Professor Cole, > > of the Department of History at The University of Michigan, > > quite accurately identifies the distortions that have been > > wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings: > > > > "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given > > answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, > > stressing scriptural literalism, patriachy, theocracy, > > censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key > > democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth- > > century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, > > continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a > > different set of emphases prevailed." (196) > > > > He himself and many others, as evidence under the"Assorted Controversial > > Documents," have suffered at the > > hands of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the > > religion: > > > > "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused > > tension in the community, whose present-day leadership > > tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, > > and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent > > academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the > > movement." (201) > > > > These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are > > evident on AOL, talk.religion.bahai, and alt.religion.bahai > > for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident > > to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may > > be trying to control and influence. > > > > As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always > > found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai > > fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and > > leaders of government, the United Nations, and public > > opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private > > or at Bahai-only meetings. > > > > Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that > > is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear > > and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha as > > the following: > > > > "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the > > conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that > > liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of > > morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets > > of the contingent world." > > Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. > > > > The UHJ is also in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics > > and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais > > merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums > > of public discussion. > > > > I recommend all newcomers to these matters read > > "The Bahai Technique": > > > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/technique.htm > > On The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, > > discusses related issues in his journal article "The > > Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": > > > > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > > > Also see: > > > > Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm > > > > Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/Outburst.htm > > > > Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary > > Board > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 6:38 AM Subject: Re: NEWSRELEASE - Cathy Freeman - Deprived of Bahai Voting Rights for Support of Lost Generation Note well the acknowledgement of the FACTS. Oh, let me add, again, ONE HAS TO ASK FOR ONE'S RIGHTS!!!!!! > In article <20000921003218.08907.00000121@ng-fi1.aol.com>, > smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > > > As to the question as to why her rights haven't yet been restored, > did she ask for them? -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Susan Maneck " wrote in message news:20000927233129.26598.00002374@ng-ch1.aol.com... > >I can't believe Fred is saying this. > > I wonder who was the Einstein who opened this can of worms to begin with. > > "And we were gathered in one place, a generation lost in space, with no time > left to start again . . " > Don McLean's American Pie > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 6:45 AM Subject: Re: NEWSRELEASE - Cathy Freeman - Deprived of Bahai Voting Rights for Support of Lost Generation I suggest news agencies NOT take at face value either side expressed here but dispassionately INVESTIGATE for themselves with Cathy Freeman and other reliable sources. Note carefully that bahai fundamentalists have tried to *conceal* the truth in this matter. Note well, also, below, the acknowledgement of the FACTS by Ms. Maneck and other bahai literalists *before* my sending out a news release. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > In article <20000921003218.08907.00000121@ng-fi1.aol.com>, > smaneck@aol.com (Smaneck) wrote: > > > > As to the question as to why her rights haven't yet been restored, > did she ask for them? ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 8:51 AM Subject: Re: Cathy Freeman - The bahai Technique If you're not one of the many false identities adopted by bahai fundamentalists attempting to obscure the real issues, I suggest you read Professor Juan Cole's article published in The Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Volume 37, No. 2 (June 1998): 234-248: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm or his comments on Letter of Douglas Martin via the Secretariat of the Baha'i World Center: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm wrote in message news:39d2a883.11925205@news... > On Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:10:06 GMT, "Patrick Henry" > wrote: > > > Sorry to barge in Mr. Patrick_Henry. I've been lurking here for a > couple of days now and as a free thinker I feel obligated to say a few > things. > > >Quite laughable since the real bullies on talk.religion.bahai > >have been and are the fundamentalists among my > >co-religionists. > > I see no evidence to support the above statement. > > > >The non-Bahai will note that my fellow Bahais only continue, > >with renewed ferocity, their attempts to silence and suppress > >what they don't want you to know about: > > I have read all the posts in this ng and I find no evidence to speak > of that even remotely supports your claim that attempts are being made > to silence and suppress you. On the other hand, I sense a great deal > of ferocity in your attempt to sway me into believing your claims. > Claims, I will add, that are apparently based on nothing more than > your....well....claims. For all I know, the names you have mentioned > in your previous posts ( those who believe as you do ) are merely > figments of your imagination. Truly sir, you offer me no tangible > proof at all. Tangible proof sir, IMHO, would not include statements > made by folks that are simply pissed-off at other folks. > > >Incessant Bahai attacks upon my freedom of speech > >and liberty, as well as on others, have made it necessary for > >me to adopt a persona for my own protection and well being. > >Other measures have been taken. > > I have not witnessed any attacks upon your right to speak freely. As > to your liberty, what exactly do you mean by that? Do you wish me to > believe that the Baha'i's, whom you genuinely seem to loathe, have > somehow enslaved you? > There are several interpretations for the word liberty. Some that come > to mind, specifically in contrast to your statement above, are: > *impertinence > *inaccurate portrayal of facts and/or data. > > I wish you no ill will sir. As I stated at the start of this post, I > simply felt the need to respond. > > Best Regards, > /Sheldon > > > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 8:53 AM Subject: Re: Cathy Freeman - The bahai Technique If you're not one of the many false identities adopted by bahai fundamentalists attempting to obscure the real issues, I suggest you read Professor Juan Cole's article published in The Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, Volume 37, No. 2 (June 1998): 234-248: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm or his comments on Letter of Douglas Martin via the Secretariat of the Baha'i World Center: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Brii P.R." wrote in message news:39D23101.3CEBA8A0@nospam.hotmail.com... > For the record I am a Bahá'í (24 years ago). > > Your spamming in this newsgroup was much to great for me to risk > providing my regular email address. It is unfortunate that you have been > hurt by others, but it is not fair to continue this accusatory stance, > harsh and abrasive tones with this group; members come and go and new, > like myself have no clue why you are so angry. > > If you are trying to persuade others to your side, as you believe that > your side is the truth, you might try a little more honey and a lot less > vinegar. > > Brii P.R. > > > > Patrick Henry wrote: > > > > > "Brii P.R." (brieze_way@nospam.hotmail.com) writes: > > > > I new to this newsgroup so forgive my studpid question: Has anyone tried > > > > just ignoring Mr. Henry. > > > > > > > > This tactic worked on Bullies at my elementary school. > > > > Quite laughable since the real bullies on talk.religion.bahai > > have been and are the fundamentalists among my > > co-religionists. > > > > The non-Bahai will note that my fellow Bahais only continue, > > with renewed ferocity, their attempts to silence and suppress > > what they don't want you to know about: > > > > Incessant Bahai attacks upon my freedom of speech > > and liberty, as well as on others, have made it necessary for > > me to adopt a persona for my own protection and well being. > > Other measures have been taken. > > > > During the late winter and spring of 1999, Bahais twice flooded > > my hotmail account with up to 1000 messages per day > > resulting in considerable inconvenience and expenditure > > of time and effort to block, and ultimately close, the > > offending accounts; they have, by using numerous Bahai trolls, > > especially Gyr Falcon, slandered, maligned, and caricatured > > me in a further effort to discredit me and portray me on > > talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere as a disturbed and errant > > individual; through concerted false charges and allegations against > > me, they have now succeeded in deceiving Hotmail into closing > > my email account, which I depended on for a considerable > > part of my income and livelihood. > > > > For documentation of many similar incidents of Bahai oppression > > during the last decade, see The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of > > Conscience: > > > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > BULLYING: > > > > I'm alarmed at the Bahai attempts, during May of 1999, > > at character assassination, ridicule, and generally > > portraying me and others as disturbed individuals. This > > tactic has been used for over three years and continues > > to be used against me and other Bahais and non-Bahais > > or ex-Bahais on and off talk.religion.bahai. > > > > I have never claimed to be perfect. At times I have > > apologized to Bahais, Muslims, and other non-Bahais > > when I felt, or was convinced, that I was wrong or hadspoken unfairly. I > > find the constant technique to portray > > me as a megalomanic or paranoid quite offensive. > > > > Similarly, the tactic of accusing me of spam for posting > > my opinions is calculated to discredit the validity of my and > > others' concerns regarding censorship in Bahai forums and > > has also been used on AOL. Such accusations reveal the > > frustration that Bahai fundamentalists apparently feel over > > my having found ways of enduring and resisting the onslaught of > > their concerted attacks, while preserving a historical record on > > a markedly ephermeral medium for innocent Bahais and > > non-Bahais.... > > > > Fair-minded Bahai and non-Bahai observers may > > judge for themselves whether my and others' allegations of > > censorship are valid by reading the record preserved under > > "Assorted Controversial Documents" on my website at > > > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > As further corroboration that I am not the only person > > concerned with the intolerance and censorship that has > > overtaken the Bahai Faith, I recommend Professor Juan Cole's > > new book Modernity & the Millennium: The Genesis of the > > Bahai Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East, available > > through Columbia University Press or Amazon.com at > > > > https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0231110812/002-4036721-8058448 > > > > In his conclusion, which would never have passed the > > system of Bahai "review" that the UHJ imposes on all > > publications brought out under its tight control, Professor Cole, > > of the Department of History at The University of Michigan, > > quite accurately identifies the distortions that have been > > wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings: > > > > "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given > > answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, > > stressing scriptural literalism, patriachy, theocracy, > > censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key > > democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth- > > century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, > > continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s a > > different set of emphases prevailed." (196) > > > > He himself and many others, as evidence under the"Assorted Controversial > > Documents," have suffered at the > > hands of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the > > religion: > > > > "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused > > tension in the community, whose present-day leadership > > tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, > > and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent > > academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the > > movement." (201) > > > > These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are > > evident on AOL, talk.religion.bahai, and alt.religion.bahai > > for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident > > to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may > > be trying to control and influence. > > > > As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always > > found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai > > fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and > > leaders of government, the United Nations, and public > > opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private > > or at Bahai-only meetings. > > > > Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that > > is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear > > and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha as > > the following: > > > > "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the > > conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that > > liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of > > morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets > > of the contingent world." > > Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. > > > > The UHJ is also in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics > > and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais > > merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums > > of public discussion. > > > > I recommend all newcomers to these matters read > > "The Bahai Technique": > > > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/technique.htm > > On The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/bahai.htm > > > > Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, > > discusses related issues in his journal article "The > > Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": > > > > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > > > Also see: > > > > Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm > > > > Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/Outburst.htm > > > > Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary > > Board > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm > > > > -- > > Patrick Henry.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: > > https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 7:47 AM Subject: Re: REVISED - bahai - Maneck's Slandering of Prof. Juan Cole of the University of Michigan; UHJ Slanderous Backbiting Letter My posts to sci are not spam. The Bahai Faith began in Iran. Perhaps you haven't heard.... It is regularly discussed on sci. if you haven't noticed, etc..... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm "CyrusTheGreat" wrote in message news:8r1u1d$l91$1@news.ihug.co.nz... > You are spamming SCI with your Bahai propaganda. > Anchor your boat some place else ..Do you mind ? > > Patrick Henry wrote in message ... > >The recent flooding of talk.religion.bahai by Susan Maneck > >and other fundamentalists should be properly viewed as not > >only a subterfuge to conceal the hypocritical involvement > >of bahais at the United Nations but also an attempt to slander > >Professor Cole and to dissuade people from considering his > >critique of the Haifa uhj in both his book Modernity & the > >Millennium and his many statements on his website and elsewhere. > > > >As a sample of the extreme views opposing free speech and > >academic freedom held by the uhj and its fundamentalists on > >talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere, see below the text of the uhj's > >letter circulated behind Cole's back, slandering him within the > >bahai community. There have now been many American bahai > >academics who have received this type of treatment and been > >driven out of the bahai faith in one way or another, a fact they > >seek to conceal from the United Nations and government > >officials. > > > >For his comments and response, see > >https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm > > > >-- > >Frederick Glaysher > >www.fglaysher.com > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > >https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > > > > > > >---- > >3 August 1999 > > > >From: Department of the Secretariat > >Baha'i World Center > > > >Dear Baha'i Friend, > > > >Clearly, no one would dispute the right of Dr. Cole to write and publish > >whatever work a publisher is prepared to handle. Nor has anyone questioned > >the right of a Baha'i who is interested in such a book to purchase it. To > >suggest that the House of Justice is saying otherwise would be to seriously > >misconstrue the nature of its concern . . . > > > >As a participant in various Internet discussion groups over the past five > >years, and particularly in the last year or two, you cannot but be aware > >from these exchanges that Dr. Cole has embarked on a deliberate assault > >against the Baha'i Cause, in which he has not hesitated to attack its > >institutions, to misrepresent its fundamental teachings, and to abuse the > >trust of Baha'is who had been led to believe that they were engaged with > him > >in a detached and scholarly search for the truth. These same Internet > >exchanges exposed you, like other participants, to a flood of calumny and > >invective against a great many of your fellow believers, on the part of Dr. > >Cole, that is scarcely credible in rational discourse. > > > >Had such a book as Modernity and the Millennium been written by a > >disinterested non-Baha'i scholar, its misconception of the nature of > >Baha'u'llah's Mission and its other shortcomings would have represented no > >more than understandable weaknesses of an honest attempt to explore a > >religious phenomenon as yet little understood in the West. Indeed, in this > >context, such an attempt to make the Baha'i Faith comprehensible to the > >Western academic mind, however inadequate it might appear to knowledgeable > >Baha'i scholars, would surely have earned its author a measure of genuine > >Baha'i appreciation for the writing and research skills deployed in > devising > >it. > > > >As you -- like other participants in certain Internet discussion groups -- > >are well aware, however, the book's author is not a disinterested scholar. > >Rather, he is a deeply embittered individual who, as his book was in > >preparation, had just denounced in the most intemperate language an > apparent > >twenty-year allegiance to Baha'u'llah, in the wake of a failed attempt on > >his part to impose his private ideological agenda on the Baha'i community's > >study of Baha'u'llah's Message. Modernity and the Millennium represents an > >effort to provide the current stage of this long-running scheme with the > >underpinnings of scholarly rationalization. > > > >What is this rationalization? Although distorted by its evasion of Baha'i > >Texts that contradict its main assertions, and blurred by reliance on > >speculations peculiar to its author's purpose, the thesis appears to run > >somewhat as follows: Baha'u'llah's work and Writings represent essentially > >one of several efforts by Middle East thinkers to work out a "response" to > >the challenges posed by European modernity in the form of rationalism, > >revolution, nationalism, economic upheaval, feminism and other contemporary > >developments. Although Oriental in origin, this particular "response", in > >contrast to various others, was unusually "progressive", "liberal", > >"idealistic", even "radical". Because it "grew up" in a congenial modernist > >era, its Author was able gradually to adjust and revise the ideas with > which > >He had been "grappling", through benefiting (in a manner generally > >insinuated rather than explicitly stated) from successive interactions with > >other thinkers and movements. By 1862, apparently in order to deal with the > >problem of religious exclusivity in the Muslim world, and in response to > >some form of "private mystical experience", He "decided to make a prophetic > >claim of his own" . . . > > > >The Covenant, the distinguishing feature of Baha'u'llah's Revelation, has > >been made the central target of this effort (a maneuver that Dr. Cole's > book > >is at particular pains to shore up). Although forced to acknowledge the > >appointments of `Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian as Interpreters of > >Baha'u'llah's Message, every effort has been made to call such > authoritative > >interpretation into question wherever it presents a problem for the notions > >being promoted. > > > >Similarly, although ostensibly acknowledging that the Universal House of > >Justice is Head of the Baha'i Faith today, this opposition has tried by > >every means possible to undermine the broad authority conferred in > >Baha'u'llah's own words and emphasized in the Master's Will and Testament. > > > >(In Dr. Cole's book, this agenda makes its appearance in the conclusion: > >namely, that the Faith founded by Baha'u'llah has failed in its mission > >because, like "the Khomeinist state in Iran", it has been somehow captured > >by "fundamentalists", by which term Dr. Cole has repeatedly characterized > >the members of the Universal House of Justice.) . . . > > > >With loving Baha'i greetings, > > > >Department of the Secretariat > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 9:54 AM Subject: Re: - bahai - universal house of "justice" - Backbiting Prof. Juan Cole, Dept. of History, The University of Michigan I also recommend the non-bahai observer attempting to understand both sides read or skim the documents on Professor Cole's website at https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bhdoc.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm "Patrick Henry" wrote in message news:4u%A5.14534$hD4.3821119@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > 3 August 1999 > > From: Department of the Secretariat > Baha'i World Center > > Dear Baha'i Friend, > > Clearly, no one would dispute the right of Dr. Cole to write and publish > whatever work a publisher is prepared to handle. Nor has anyone questioned > the right of a Baha'i who is interested in such a book to purchase it. To > suggest that the House of Justice is saying otherwise would be to seriously > misconstrue the nature of its concern . . . > > As a participant in various Internet discussion groups over the past five > years, and particularly in the last year or two, you cannot but be aware > from these exchanges that Dr. Cole has embarked on a deliberate assault > against the Baha'i Cause, in which he has not hesitated to attack its > institutions, to misrepresent its fundamental teachings, and to abuse the > trust of Baha'is who had been led to believe that they were engaged with him > in a detached and scholarly search for the truth. These same Internet > exchanges exposed you, like other participants, to a flood of calumny and > invective against a great many of your fellow believers, on the part of Dr. > Cole, that is scarcely credible in rational discourse. > > Had such a book as Modernity and the Millennium been written by a > disinterested non-Baha'i scholar, its misconception of the nature of > Baha'u'llah's Mission and its other shortcomings would have represented no > more than understandable weaknesses of an honest attempt to explore a > religious phenomenon as yet little understood in the West. Indeed, in this > context, such an attempt to make the Baha'i Faith comprehensible to the > Western academic mind, however inadequate it might appear to knowledgeable > Baha'i scholars, would surely have earned its author a measure of genuine > Baha'i appreciation for the writing and research > skills deployed in devising it. > > As you -- like other participants in certain Internet discussion groups -- > are well aware, however, the book's author is not a disinterested scholar. > Rather, he is a deeply embittered individual who, as his book was in > preparation, had just denounced in the most intemperate language an apparent > twenty-year allegiance to Baha'u'llah, in the wake of a failed > attempt on his part to impose his private ideological agenda on the > Baha'i community's study of Baha'u'llah's Message. Modernity and > the Millennium represents an effort to provide the current stage of this > long-running scheme with the underpinnings of scholarly rationalization. > > What is this rationalization? Although distorted by its evasion of Baha'i > Texts that contradict its main assertions, and blurred by reliance on > speculations peculiar to its author's purpose, the thesis appears to run > somewhat as follows: Baha'u'llah's work and Writings represent essentially > one of several efforts by Middle East thinkers to work out a "response" to > the challenges posed by European modernity in the form of rationalism, > revolution, nationalism, economic upheaval, feminism and other contemporary > developments. Although Oriental in origin, this particular "response", in > contrast to various others, was unusually "progressive", "liberal", > "idealistic", even "radical". Because it "grew up" in a congenial modernist > era, its Author was able gradually to adjust and revise the ideas with which > He had been "grappling", through benefiting (in a manner generally > insinuated rather than explicitly stated) from successive interactions with > other thinkers and movements. By 1862, apparently in order to deal with the > problem of religious exclusivity in the Muslim world, and in response to > some form of "private mystical experience", He "decided to make a prophetic > claim of his own" . . . > > The Covenant, the distinguishing feature of Baha'u'llah's Revelation, has > been made the central target of this effort (a maneuver that Dr. Cole's book > is at particular pains to shore up). Although forced to acknowledge the > appointments of `Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian as Interpreters of > Baha'u'llah's Message, every effort has been made to call such authoritative > interpretation into question wherever it presents a problem for the notions > being promoted. > > Similarly, although ostensibly acknowledging that the Universal House of > Justice is Head of the Baha'i Faith today, this opposition has tried by > every means possible to undermine the broad authority conferred in > Baha'u'llah's own words and emphasized in the Master's Will and Testament. > > (In Dr. Cole's book, this agenda makes its appearance in the conclusion: > namely, that the Faith founded by Baha'u'llah has failed in its mission > because, like "the Khomeinist state in Iran", it has been somehow captured > by "fundamentalists", by which term Dr. Cole has repeatedly characterized > the members of the Universal House of Justice.) . . . > > With loving Baha'i greetings, > > Department of the Secretariat > > ----- > For his comments and response, see > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:Patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 10:01 AM Subject: Re: - bahai - universal house of "justice" - Backbiting Prof. Juan Cole, Dept. of History, The University of Michigan Especially, that is, the bottom half of the page: > I also recommend the non-bahai observer attempting > to understand both sides read or skim the documents > on Professor Cole's website at > > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bhdoc.htm > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > > > > "Patrick Henry" wrote in message > news:4u%A5.14534$hD4.3821119@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > > 3 August 1999 > > > > From: Department of the Secretariat > > Baha'i World Center > > > > Dear Baha'i Friend, > > > > Clearly, no one would dispute the right of Dr. Cole to write and publish > > whatever work a publisher is prepared to handle. Nor has anyone questioned > > the right of a Baha'i who is interested in such a book to purchase it. To > > suggest that the House of Justice is saying otherwise would be to > seriously > > misconstrue the nature of its concern . . . > > > > As a participant in various Internet discussion groups over the past five > > years, and particularly in the last year or two, you cannot but be aware > > from these exchanges that Dr. Cole has embarked on a deliberate assault > > against the Baha'i Cause, in which he has not hesitated to attack its > > institutions, to misrepresent its fundamental teachings, and to abuse the > > trust of Baha'is who had been led to believe that they were engaged with > him > > in a detached and scholarly search for the truth. These same Internet > > exchanges exposed you, like other participants, to a flood of calumny and > > invective against a great many of your fellow believers, on the part of > Dr. > > Cole, that is scarcely credible in rational discourse. > > > > Had such a book as Modernity and the Millennium been written by a > > disinterested non-Baha'i scholar, its misconception of the nature of > > Baha'u'llah's Mission and its other shortcomings would have represented no > > more than understandable weaknesses of an honest attempt to explore a > > religious phenomenon as yet little understood in the West. Indeed, in this > > context, such an attempt to make the Baha'i Faith comprehensible to the > > Western academic mind, however inadequate it might appear to knowledgeable > > Baha'i scholars, would surely have earned its author a measure of genuine > > Baha'i appreciation for the writing and research > > skills deployed in devising it. > > > > As you -- like other participants in certain Internet discussion groups -- > > are well aware, however, the book's author is not a disinterested scholar. > > Rather, he is a deeply embittered individual who, as his book was in > > preparation, had just denounced in the most intemperate language an > apparent > > twenty-year allegiance to Baha'u'llah, in the wake of a failed > > attempt on his part to impose his private ideological agenda on the > > Baha'i community's study of Baha'u'llah's Message. Modernity and > > the Millennium represents an effort to provide the current stage of this > > long-running scheme with the underpinnings of scholarly rationalization. > > > > What is this rationalization? Although distorted by its evasion of Baha'i > > Texts that contradict its main assertions, and blurred by reliance on > > speculations peculiar to its author's purpose, the thesis appears to run > > somewhat as follows: Baha'u'llah's work and Writings represent essentially > > one of several efforts by Middle East thinkers to work out a "response" to > > the challenges posed by European modernity in the form of rationalism, > > revolution, nationalism, economic upheaval, feminism and other > contemporary > > developments. Although Oriental in origin, this particular "response", in > > contrast to various others, was unusually "progressive", "liberal", > > "idealistic", even "radical". Because it "grew up" in a congenial > modernist > > era, its Author was able gradually to adjust and revise the ideas with > which > > He had been "grappling", through benefiting (in a manner generally > > insinuated rather than explicitly stated) from successive interactions > with > > other thinkers and movements. By 1862, apparently in order to deal with > the > > problem of religious exclusivity in the Muslim world, and in response to > > some form of "private mystical experience", He "decided to make a > prophetic > > claim of his own" . . . > > > > The Covenant, the distinguishing feature of Baha'u'llah's Revelation, has > > been made the central target of this effort (a maneuver that Dr. Cole's > book > > is at particular pains to shore up). Although forced to acknowledge the > > appointments of `Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian as Interpreters of > > Baha'u'llah's Message, every effort has been made to call such > authoritative > > interpretation into question wherever it presents a problem for the > notions > > being promoted. > > > > Similarly, although ostensibly acknowledging that the Universal House of > > Justice is Head of the Baha'i Faith today, this opposition has tried by > > every means possible to undermine the broad authority conferred in > > Baha'u'llah's own words and emphasized in the Master's Will and Testament. > > > > (In Dr. Cole's book, this agenda makes its appearance in the conclusion: > > namely, that the Faith founded by Baha'u'llah has failed in its mission > > because, like "the Khomeinist state in Iran", it has been somehow captured > > by "fundamentalists", by which term Dr. Cole has repeatedly characterized > > the members of the Universal House of Justice.) . . . > > > > With loving Baha'i greetings, > > > > Department of the Secretariat > > > > ----- > > For his comments and response, see > > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > www.fglaysher.com > > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > > https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 6:22 PM To: Michael McKenny Subject: Re: Tag up? (was: s.c.i.fredglaysher) Thanks, Michael. I'm at a rather low moment and really appreciate your kind words of support.... After months, nay, years under siege, one begins to feel a bit shell shocked. They've knocked my website out twice in the last two weeks. Keep that a secret if you would. At least not online, unless I decide to disclose it. Susan suckered me into overposting with her flood against Juan in late August and they were counting the numbers. They're quite determined of late. My postings on the UN, Cathy Freeman, and steady crossposting to Iran and Israel must really have them worried and resulted in some unpleasant questions from some quarters. Only guessing, but their ferocity seems to have increased, with Maneck leading the charge. The analogy with the USSR has of course been in my mind all along. I've heard a rumor that the fund isn't doing too well this year. I haven't been to feast in over four years so it's hard to judge. It's been years since anyone has called to invite me! In the long run, I hope you're right. They've gone so far against the clear and evident meaning of so many passages of the Writings. Yet, to my mind, they still appear to be digging in their heels harder than ever. One hopes for an unexpected mistake on their part or revelation, scandal. Hitler held on until the end, taking down as many with him as he could.... One thing is for sure, they fear satire and the facts. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McKenny" Newsgroups: talk.religion.bahai Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 4:13 PM Subject: Re: Tag up? (was: s.c.i.fredglaysher) > Greetings, Pat. > Uhm, no, my intent was to use your post as is, disguising only the > names. Nostalgic Moscow was an additional idea. > Uhm, no, it was fundamentalists who suggested Fred mustn't be all > there; I was doing a quote thing. I reckon the vote on news.groups with > hundreds of NOs confirmed Fred's claims that they (fundies) wanted to > prevent him from speaking; having this great collaborative FAQ against > him would only further validate any claims he's made, right? > Uhm, no, my constant recommendation and practise re trolls is not > to feed them. I saw no need to prepare an FAQ against the guy elsewhere > who had a news release saying aliens were going to interfere in the war > in Yugoslavia. No, your idea is the opposite of my thought on trolls. > Further, and more important official Baha'i response to what's posted to > cyberspace exposes inept leadership. As I've said repeatedly as long as > Clinton et al do not respond to alt.conspiracy all is well. > Uhm, no, the newsgroup is not an elevator; you may even killfile > whomever you like, or dislike, no need even to glimpse their posts, so > accomodating is technology. The fundy problem is not that they see Fred's > posts or those of others with whom they disagree, but that other people may > see these posts, hence Fred is correct that they wish to interfere with his > freedom of speech, hence, despite fundy claims to the contrary, he's as > sane as they come, my position, by the way. > Uhm, no, sadly enough Nostalgic Moscow is not fiction; it is satire, > and it's satire drawn from reality. Satire was a response to old Soviet > system; it is a traditional Irish response to inept leadership; the UHJ > begs for it, by its perversion of Baha'i into a clone of inept Soviet > system. One exposes how ridiculous such a system is, and then, gods > willing, the very serious consequences of such inept leadership may be > overcome. > To Health and Sanity Within Baha'i, > Michael > > (patk9018@my-deja.com) writes: > > Diai dhuit, > > > > Sure, but dress it up well. Instead of me giving Fred some benefit of > > the doubt regarding his emotional state just edit it so I'm describing > > him as a definite fruitcake, OK? That is what you've suggested I've > > done in your remarks below. > > > > There are plenty of contenders. Methinks your wife lives w/ one, a > > modest one who may not be fully aware of his own abilities. > > > > For a bunch of folks to cooperate there often is some 'at odds > > accomodation'. Personally, I'm not convinced that a FAQ is needed, but > > I think it might assist in coopting all concerned. Though I alluded to > > fruitcake above, I'd like to point out that you're the one who > > introduced the notion that Fred is bonkers here; of course Fred drags > > the notion out himself just so he can say he's not crazy. But for your > > piece, put it on me - it's fiction, right? > > > > The fact is we _regularly_ get complaints on the cross posts and when > > folks set out to refute what Fred wrote a certain percentage > > inadvertantly cross post setting off more protests. > > > > Laugh all you want Michael. I'm just trying to figure out a course of > > action so that reading the NG is not so much of a overcrowded elevator > > w/ complaints of toes being mashed. > > > > Dress it out smartly for BNW. My guess is that the editors who amuse > > themselves the most over notions of their preconceptions of double > > standards are the ones who most would most like to see them for folks > > they like. I can't stop Fred and I won't stop you either. When your > > done, rest assured I'll get over it. Have a good laugh, though, that > > is the important thing. > > > > Slan, > > - Pat > > kohli@ameritel.net > > -- > "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." > (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) > ---------- From: Juan Cole[SMTP:jrcole@umich.edu] Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 5:23 PM To: Fred Glaysher Subject: Re: Website address change There is something wrong with this URL; it just generates a 404 error. JRIC At 07:03 AM 9/27/00 -0500, you wrote: >Please consider updating your link at >https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/bahaixf.htm >to my website address below. > >-- >Frederick Glaysher >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > ---------- From: John Rose[SMTP:tinfoil42@icqmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 11:21 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: ODP listing of "Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience" You have submitted the URL https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm to Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Bahá'i/Alternative_Views with the note: << Please consider removing all old links beginning with https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/ and replacing them with my new address: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm As a Bahai myself, my website belongs under your Alternative category, not Opposing Views. -- Frederick Glaysher FG@hotmail.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm >> You are probably right, but the new URL yields this: "FILE NOT FOUND ERROR: Could not find the URL you are searching for..." And the old tripod URL yields: "Sorry, but the page or file that you're looking for is not here." Suggestions? Open Directory Project Editor "jrose" ------------------------------------------------------------- Sign up for ICQmail at https://www.icq.com/icqmail/signup.html ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 6:51 AM To: Juan Cole Subject: Re: Website address change Juan, Maneck has managed to knock out my website a second time. I've moved it to https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm No telling for how long. Fred ----- Original Message ----- From: "Juan Cole" To: "Fred Glaysher" Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 5:23 PM Subject: Re: Website address change > > There is something wrong with this URL; it just generates a 404 error. > > JRIC > > At 07:03 AM 9/27/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Please consider updating your link at > >https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/bahaixf.htm > >to my website address below. > > > >-- > >Frederick Glaysher > >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > >https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > > > > > ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 7:02 AM To: John Rose Subject: Re: ODP listing of "Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience" After submitting a few places, I decided NBCi.com was a better site. Please consider including https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm in Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Bahá'i/Alternative_Views Thanks. Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Rose" To: Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 11:21 PM Subject: ODP listing of "Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience" > You have submitted the URL https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm to Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Bahá'i/Alternative_Views with the note: > > << Please consider removing all old links beginning with https://members.tripod.com/~fglaysher/ and replacing them with my new address: https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm As a Bahai myself, my website belongs under your Alternative category, not Opposing Views. -- Frederick Glaysher FG@hotmail.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://users5.50megs.com/fglaysher/index.htm >> > > You are probably right, but the new URL yields this: "FILE NOT FOUND ERROR: Could not find the URL you are searching for..." > > And the old tripod URL yields: "Sorry, but the page or file that you're looking for is not here." > > Suggestions? > > Open Directory Project Editor "jrose" > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Sign up for ICQmail at https://www.icq.com/icqmail/signup.html > ---------- From: roger.prentice[SMTP:roger.prentice@ntlworld.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 1:13 PM To: FG@home.com Subject: Query Dear Fred Where is your Baha'i conscience site? Thanks Roger ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, October 16, 2000 6:13 AM To: williamgull@bigfoot.com Cc: fglaysher Subject: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com - Account Complaints I'm writing you regarding my account patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com I regularly post to alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai, soc.culture.iranian, soc.culture.israel, and talk.religion.misc, all of which are releveant to discussion of the bahai faith which began in Iran and has its administrative offices and many holy sites in Israel. These are all newsgroups that are unmoderated. As a member of the bahai faith who believes in free speech and conscience, I am routinely attacked and maligned by fundamentalists who have been attempting to discredit me and other bahais and non-bahais who expose the coercion and suppression prevelant within bahai circles. Before you or anyone else deletes my bigfoot account, I ask that you at least please visit my website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience, paying particular attention to the articles by Professor Juan Cole of the University of Michigan's History Department, one of which I cite: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm I should mention that since there are many bahai fundamentalists opposing open discussion of their methods, similar to sciencetology, they have been flooding various people's ISPs and account administrators with complaints in hope of discrediting and having diverse voices silenced. I included below one such message. Thank you for your fair treatment in this manner. Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ----- Patrick Henry wrote: > My crossposts to soc.culture.israel, soc.culture.iranian, > and talk.religion.misc are . . . [some deletions] Pardon the intrusion. I recently sent an email to bigfoot.com and received the response below. I promise that this is the last time that I will post this. -saman _______________________ Re: Spam - do not respond with an automatic message Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 11:11:55 -0400 From: William Gull To: Saman Ahmadi I need to see a complaint from the Newsgroup administrator i order to cancel the Bigfoot account. Currently you are the only person complaining about this address, which is not sufficient cause for terminating the account. I need multiple complaints from multiple users. Thank you. ---------- From: FGlays@aol.com[SMTP:FGlays@aol.com] Sent: Monday, October 16, 2000 8:00 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: False allegation of TOS I'm writing you regarding my account on AOL and the allegation of a TOS violation on the Bahai message boards. I regularly post to AOL, alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai, soc.culture.iranian, soc.culture.israel, and talk.religion.misc, all of which are relevant to discussion of the bahai faith which began in Iran and has its administrative offices and many holy sites in Israel. These are all message boards and newsgroups that are unmoderated. As a member of the bahai faith who believes in free speech and conscience, I am routinely attacked and maligned by fundamentalists who have been attempting to discredit me and other bahais and non-bahais who expose the coercion and suppression prevelant within bahai circles. Before you or anyone else files a TOS against my account, I ask that you at least please visit my website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience, paying particular attention to the articles by Professor Juan Cole of the University of Michigan's History Department, one of which I cite: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm I should mention that since there are many bahai fundamentalists opposing open discussion of their methods on AOL, similar to sciencetology, they have been flooding various people's ISPs and account administrators with complaints in hope of discrediting and having diverse voices silenced. Thank you for your fair treatment in this manner. Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Jacqui Chapple[SMTP:info@steading.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 1:33 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Website address. Dear Mr. Glaysher, I have lately been trying to locate your website on the "Baha'i Faith & Freedom of Conscience" - which I have viewed before & enjoyed - but with no success. If this page is still on the net I'd be extremely grateful if you could send me the website address. My e-mail address is bill@steading.co.uk Thank you, Bill Lloyd. Steading Holidays info@steading.co.uk. www.steading.co.uk. Phone: 01972 510 262 Fax: 01972 510 337 ---------- From: Jacqui Chapple[SMTP:info@steading.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 3:49 PM To: F GLAYSHER Subject: New website address. Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for the very prompt reply. I've tried the address you gave me & got the site on screen with no problems. Kind regards, Bill Lloyd. Steading Holidays info@steading.co.uk. www.steading.co.uk. Phone: 01972 510 262 Fax: 01972 510 337 ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 3:35 PM To: Jacqui Chapple Subject: Re: Website address. Dear Mr. Chapple, Thanks for the good word. Fundamentalists twice knocked out my site in September by flooding the host ISP with complaints. They outnumber me. Anyway, there are many other places to upload it. You may now find it at https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Best, Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Jacqui Chapple To: FG@hotmail.com Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 2:33 PM Subject: Website address. Dear Mr. Glaysher, I have lately been trying to locate your website on the "Baha'i Faith & Freedom of Conscience" - which I have viewed before & enjoyed - but with no success. If this page is still on the net I'd be extremely grateful if you could send me the website address. My e-mail address is bill@steading.co.uk Thank you, Bill Lloyd. Steading Holidays info@steading.co.uk. www.steading.co.uk. Phone: 01972 510 262 Fax: 01972 510 337 ---------- From: Fred Glaysher[SMTP:FG@home.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 8:55 AM To: fglaysher Subject: Subj: SUBJECT: Board Posting at Baha'i Faith Subj: SUBJECT: Board Posting at Baha'i Faith Date: 10/27/2000 4:24:46 PM Eastern Standard Time From: LDRS LFST Shahid To: PatrickHenry1954 CC: LDRS LFST Jerry, LDRS LFST Mgr Dear Patrick, Regarding your message posted at: Lifestyle>Spirituality>Baha'i Message Board>Announcements>10/27/00 8:20 AM. I have also removed your posts from the For Inquirers folder and the Question to the Forum Leader folder which I place below as well. To avoid disruption to the message board discussion, your message has been removed. The Baha'i Message Board is devoted to dedicated to support and/or fellowship of the the Baha'i Community not posts which are designed only to inflame, anger and disrupt the ongoing discussions. Also, posting the same message in numerous folders constitutes spamming. Changing the subject line will not make it a different post. Because you have received such a warnings numerous times this message will be reported to AOL's Community Action Team. Please read our Spirituality Message Board Guidelines regarding message board participation and AOL's Terms of Service at Keyword: TOS. We anticipate your understanding and look forward to your future participation in our community discussions. LDRS LFST Shahid Volunteer Message Board Leader Baha'i Message Board Subject: bahai Victims of Conscience.... Date: 10/27/00 8:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027082049.24905.00000928@ng-cg1.aol.com> Their many victims include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Subject: Arafat bahais.... Date: 10/27/00 8:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027081322.09979.00003806@ng-cg1.aol.com> Their many victims include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Subject: Re: Can They Do That? Date: 10/27/00 8:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027081548.10564.00001908@ng-cg1.aol.com> >--Rule, who welcomes all new Baha'is who think for themselves > Rule, As you know this is what happens to those who think for themselves: Their many victims include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Subject: Re: Your Online Experience Date: 10/27/00 8:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027081737.10564.00001909@ng-cg1.aol.com> >LDRS LFST Shahid >Volunteer Message Board Leader >Baha'i Message Board Let's all filter out the person above since he contributes nothing to honest discussion and exchange on AOL. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: PatrickHenry1954@aol.com[SMTP:PatrickHenry1954@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 7:07 AM To: WillH@aol.com Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Baha'i Message Board - False TOSs The Volunteer Message Board Leader of Baha'i Message Board is abusing his position by not allowing anyone to post anything whatsoever. He's TOSing people for trivial reasons in the hope of driving them off AOL or using and duping you into kicking off bahais and ex-bahais who don't accept his fundamentalist line of thought. As a bahai since 1976, I'm very tired of watching their manipulating AOL and wish you would not allow it. The people you are permitting to control the bahai forums are among the worst fanatics in the religion today. Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ------------------------------- Subj: SUBJECT: Board Posting at Baha'i Faith Date: 10/27/2000 4:24:46 PM Eastern Standard Time From: LDRS LFST Shahid To: PatrickHenry1954 CC: LDRS LFST Jerry, LDRS LFST Mgr Dear Patrick, Regarding your message posted at: Lifestyle>Spirituality>Baha'i Message Board>Announcements>10/27/00 8:20 AM. I have also removed your posts from the For Inquirers folder and the Question to the Forum Leader folder which I place below as well. To avoid disruption to the message board discussion, your message has been removed. The Baha'i Message Board is devoted to dedicated to support and/or fellowship of the the Baha'i Community not posts which are designed only to inflame, anger and disrupt the ongoing discussions. Also, posting the same message in numerous folders constitutes spamming. Changing the subject line will not make it a different post. Because you have received such a warnings numerous times this message will be reported to AOL's Community Action Team. Please read our Spirituality Message Board Guidelines regarding message board participation and AOL's Terms of Service at Keyword: TOS. We anticipate your understanding and look forward to your future participation in our community discussions. LDRS LFST Shahid Volunteer Message Board Leader Baha'i Message Board Subject: bahai Victims of Conscience.... Date: 10/27/00 8:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027082049.24905.00000928@ng-cg1.aol.com> Their many victims include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Subject: Arafat bahais.... Date: 10/27/00 8:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027081322.09979.00003806@ng-cg1.aol.com> Their many victims include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Subject: Re: Can They Do That? Date: 10/27/00 8:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027081548.10564.00001908@ng-cg1.aol.com> >--Rule, who welcomes all new Baha'is who think for themselves > Rule, As you know this is what happens to those who think for themselves: Their many victims include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Subject: Re: Your Online Experience Date: 10/27/00 8:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027081737.10564.00001909@ng-cg1.aol.com> >LDRS LFST Shahid >Volunteer Message Board Leader >Baha'i Message Board Let's all filter out the person above since he contributes nothing to honest discussion and exchange on AOL. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: PatrickHenry1954@aol.com[SMTP:PatrickHenry1954@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 7:08 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Baha'i Message Board The Volunteer Message Board Leader of Baha'i Message Board is abusing his position by not allowing anyone to post anything whatsoever. He's TOSing people for trivial reasons in the hope of driving them off AOL or using and duping you into kicking off bahais and ex-bahais who don't accept his fundamentalist line of thought. As a bahai since 1976, I'm very tired of watching their manipulating AOL and wish you would not allow it. The people you are permitting to control the bahai forums are among the worst fanatics in the religion today. Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ------------------------------- Subj: SUBJECT: Board Posting at Baha'i Faith Date: 10/27/2000 4:24:46 PM Eastern Standard Time From: LDRS LFST Shahid To: PatrickHenry1954 CC: LDRS LFST Jerry, LDRS LFST Mgr Dear Patrick, Regarding your message posted at: Lifestyle>Spirituality>Baha'i Message Board>Announcements>10/27/00 8:20 AM. I have also removed your posts from the For Inquirers folder and the Question to the Forum Leader folder which I place below as well. To avoid disruption to the message board discussion, your message has been removed. The Baha'i Message Board is devoted to dedicated to support and/or fellowship of the the Baha'i Community not posts which are designed only to inflame, anger and disrupt the ongoing discussions. Also, posting the same message in numerous folders constitutes spamming. Changing the subject line will not make it a different post. Because you have received such a warnings numerous times this message will be reported to AOL's Community Action Team. Please read our Spirituality Message Board Guidelines regarding message board participation and AOL's Terms of Service at Keyword: TOS. We anticipate your understanding and look forward to your future participation in our community discussions. LDRS LFST Shahid Volunteer Message Board Leader Baha'i Message Board Subject: bahai Victims of Conscience.... Date: 10/27/00 8:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027082049.24905.00000928@ng-cg1.aol.com> Their many victims include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Subject: Arafat bahais.... Date: 10/27/00 8:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027081322.09979.00003806@ng-cg1.aol.com> Their many victims include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Subject: Re: Can They Do That? Date: 10/27/00 8:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027081548.10564.00001908@ng-cg1.aol.com> >--Rule, who welcomes all new Baha'is who think for themselves > Rule, As you know this is what happens to those who think for themselves: Their many victims include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Subject: Re: Your Online Experience Date: 10/27/00 8:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027081737.10564.00001909@ng-cg1.aol.com> >LDRS LFST Shahid >Volunteer Message Board Leader >Baha'i Message Board Let's all filter out the person above since he contributes nothing to honest discussion and exchange on AOL. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: PatrickHenry1954@aol.com[SMTP:PatrickHenry1954@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 6:57 AM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Baha'i Message Board Leader - Abuse of Position Subj: Baha'i Message Board Date: 11/2/2000 7:08:49 AM Eastern Standard Time From: PatrickHenry1954 To: TOSGeneral CC: FG@hotmail.com The Volunteer Message Board Leader of Baha'i Message Board is abusing his position by not allowing anyone to post anything whatsoever. He's TOSing people for trivial reasons in the hope of driving them off AOL or using and duping you into kicking off bahais and ex-bahais who don't accept his fundamentalist line of thought. As a bahai since 1976, I'm very tired of watching their manipulating AOL and wish you would not allow it. The people you are permitting to control the bahai forums are among the worst fanatics in the religion today. Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ------------------------------- Subj: SUBJECT: Board Posting at Baha'i Faith Date: 10/27/2000 4:24:46 PM Eastern Standard Time From: LDRS LFST Shahid To: PatrickHenry1954 CC: LDRS LFST Jerry, LDRS LFST Mgr Dear Patrick, Regarding your message posted at: Lifestyle>Spirituality>Baha'i Message Board>Announcements>10/27/00 8:20 AM. I have also removed your posts from the For Inquirers folder and the Question to the Forum Leader folder which I place below as well. To avoid disruption to the message board discussion, your message has been removed. The Baha'i Message Board is devoted to dedicated to support and/or fellowship of the the Baha'i Community not posts which are designed only to inflame, anger and disrupt the ongoing discussions. Also, posting the same message in numerous folders constitutes spamming. Changing the subject line will not make it a different post. Because you have received such a warnings numerous times this message will be reported to AOL's Community Action Team. Please read our Spirituality Message Board Guidelines regarding message board participation and AOL's Terms of Service at Keyword: TOS. We anticipate your understanding and look forward to your future participation in our community discussions. LDRS LFST Shahid Volunteer Message Board Leader Baha'i Message Board Subject: bahai Victims of Conscience.... Date: 10/27/00 8:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027082049.24905.00000928@ng-cg1.aol.com> Their many victims include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Subject: Arafat bahais.... Date: 10/27/00 8:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027081322.09979.00003806@ng-cg1.aol.com> Their many victims include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Subject: Re: Can They Do That? Date: 10/27/00 8:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027081548.10564.00001908@ng-cg1.aol.com> >--Rule, who welcomes all new Baha'is who think for themselves > Rule, As you know this is what happens to those who think for themselves: Their many victims include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Subject: Re: Your Online Experience Date: 10/27/00 8:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027081737.10564.00001909@ng-cg1.aol.com> >LDRS LFST Shahid >Volunteer Message Board Leader >Baha'i Message Board Let's all filter out the person above since he contributes nothing to honest discussion and exchange on AOL. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 9:37 AM Subject: Attempts to Discredit Me.... Michael McKenny wrote: >In the case of Frederick Glaysher they've even trumped that, it >appears, and not even bothered to have him notified > they were booting him out. That bahai hypocrites malign, backbite, and repudiate my faith merely proves how desperate the uhj has become, using such reprehensible tactics that spurn these words of Abdul-Baha: "likewise in the world of religion there should be the right of unrestricted individual belief." -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: PatrickHenry1954@aol.com[SMTP:PatrickHenry1954@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 5:48 PM To: TOSGeneral@aol.com Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Baha'i Message Board Leader - Abuse of Position The Volunteer Message Board Leader of Baha'i Message Board is abusing his position by not allowing anyone to post anything whatsoever. He's TOSing people for trivial reasons in the hope of driving them off AOL or using and duping you into kicking off bahais and ex-bahais who don't accept his fundamentalist line of thought. As a bahai since 1976, I'm very tired of watching their manipulating AOL and wish you would not allow it. The people you are permitting to control the bahai forums are among the worst fanatics in the religion today. Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ------------------------------- Subj: SUBJECT: Board Posting at Baha'i Faith Date: 10/27/2000 4:24:46 PM Eastern Standard Time From: LDRS LFST Shahid To: PatrickHenry1954 CC: LDRS LFST Jerry, LDRS LFST Mgr Dear Patrick, Regarding your message posted at: Lifestyle>Spirituality>Baha'i Message Board>Announcements>10/27/00 8:20 AM. I have also removed your posts from the For Inquirers folder and the Question to the Forum Leader folder which I place below as well. To avoid disruption to the message board discussion, your message has been removed. The Baha'i Message Board is devoted to dedicated to support and/or fellowship of the the Baha'i Community not posts which are designed only to inflame, anger and disrupt the ongoing discussions. Also, posting the same message in numerous folders constitutes spamming. Changing the subject line will not make it a different post. Because you have received such a warnings numerous times this message will be reported to AOL's Community Action Team. Please read our Spirituality Message Board Guidelines regarding message board participation and AOL's Terms of Service at Keyword: TOS. We anticipate your understanding and look forward to your future participation in our community discussions. LDRS LFST Shahid Volunteer Message Board Leader Baha'i Message Board Subject: bahai Victims of Conscience.... Date: 10/27/00 8:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027082049.24905.00000928@ng-cg1.aol.com> Their many victims include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Subject: Arafat bahais.... Date: 10/27/00 8:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027081322.09979.00003806@ng-cg1.aol.com> Their many victims include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Subject: Re: Can They Do That? Date: 10/27/00 8:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027081548.10564.00001908@ng-cg1.aol.com> >--Rule, who welcomes all new Baha'is who think for themselves > Rule, As you know this is what happens to those who think for themselves: Their many victims include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Subject: Re: Your Online Experience Date: 10/27/00 8:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: PatrickHenry1954 Message-id: <20001027081737.10564.00001909@ng-cg1.aol.com> >LDRS LFST Shahid >Volunteer Message Board Leader >Baha'i Message Board Let's all filter out the person above since he contributes nothing to honest discussion and exchange on AOL. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_henry1776@my-deja.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 5:16 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: bahais - Hit my website - 3rd Time.... The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience fglaysher wrote: > >For the third time since early September 2000, bahais > >have managed to suppress and knock my website off > >the Internet. Mr. Mahdi wrote: > The extremism of those who are trying to get Fred Glaysher >off the Internet is beyond any rational justification, for >the simple fact that Fred does not use any lewd or obscene >language nor does he post irrelevant topics that are not >worthy of discussion. Bahais seem to be so obsessed at >maintaining their superficial "progressive" image that >anything that exposes the falsehood and hypocrisy of the >bahai faith are suppressed and attacked, in order for the >bahais to keep decieving people into thinking that these >are unwarranted and baseless attacks and accusations which >hold no weight in reality. I wish to thank Mr. Mahdi for his honest, candid words. I believe he understands quite well the dynamics of what bahai fundamentalists are doing to the unsuspecting.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 7:31 AM Subject: bahai - Re: 0.9% Growth-Rate...Dismal! Although Professor Juan Cole's figures are too high, they are still suggestive of the manner in which the fundamentalists among my fellow bahais prefer mindless obedience and submission to the responsible spirituality that Baha'u'llah envisions.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ "Juan Cole" wrote in message news:8t34j3$b6f$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > Yes, and the NSA's own bureaucracy estimates that 50% of enrollees > leave the faith, so of the 1200 entering in 1998-99, only 600 are > likely to stay in. And, these have to be weighed against deaths. I'd > be very surprised if the faith has been growing at all for the past 20 > years, aside from Iranian immigrants. > > There were 48,000 adult Baha'is with good addresses in 1979. There are > probably about 56,000 to 60,000 (if you calculate from the election > districts) with good addresses today. And, 12000-15000 Iranians came > in, in the meantime. This would mean there was actually a decline in > the number of non-Iranian US Baha'is in this period! > > Robert Henderson, the secretary-general of the US National Spiritual > Assembly, gave a speech in Washington state last weekend in which he > alleged that the faith grew from 10,000 Baha'is in 1970 to 150,000 > today. > > But, in fact there were already 13,000 in 1968, so his 1970 figure is > low. And, the 150,000 figure is pure fantasy. He was claiming 120,000 > US Baha'is in the early 1990s, and half of those were mail returns. If > he's managed to add only 600 enduring converts per year for the past > ten years (not even counting subtractions through deaths), how does he > go to 150,000 in this period? He is lying with statistics, what Mark > Twain called "damn lies," to make his tenure as secretary-general look > good. > > The number of *active* Baha'is in the US is probably on the order of > 17,000. Soon they will have the burden of supporting half a million > Henderson phantoms on their poor tired shoulders. > > In the meantime, the people of the US are hungry for Baha'u'llah's > *spirituality*, not for the worship of bureaucracy and the submission > to blind obedience that are the central message of the fundamentalists > today. That was the difference in the '70s. We who embraced the faith > then did so for high ideals and the independent investigation of > reality. Not so we could be accused of "covenant breaking" at every > difference of opinion by some asshole addicted to quoting *Lights of > Guidance*. > > cheers Juan Cole ---------- From: FG[SMTP:FG@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 9:50 AM To: williamgull@bigfoot.com Subject: Account I'm afraid bigfoot has been duped by a concerted barage of complaints by bahai fundamentalists on Usenet who hope to conceal their coercion and censorship of bahai dissidents such as myself and others. Please see my message to bigfoot below. Saman Ahmadi, who complained below, is one of the most intolerant bahai fundamentalists on Usenet today. I would appreciate your reinstating my account: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Henry To: williamgull@bigfoot.com Cc: fglaysher Sent: Monday, October 16, 2000 7:13 AM Subject: patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com - Account Complaints I'm writing you regarding my account patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com I regularly post to alt.religion.bahai, talk.religion.bahai, soc.culture.iranian, soc.culture.israel, and talk.religion.misc, all of which are releveant to discussion of the bahai faith which began in Iran and has its administrative offices and many holy sites in Israel. These are all newsgroups that are unmoderated. As a member of the bahai faith who believes in free speech and conscience, I am routinely attacked and maligned by fundamentalists who have been attempting to discredit me and other bahais and non-bahais who expose the coercion and suppression prevelant within bahai circles. Before you or anyone else deletes my bigfoot account, I ask that you at least please visit my website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience, paying particular attention to the articles by Professor Juan Cole of the University of Michigan's History Department, one of which I cite: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm I should mention that since there are many bahai fundamentalists opposing open discussion of their methods, similar to sciencetology, they have been flooding various people's ISPs and account administrators with complaints in hope of discrediting and having diverse voices silenced. I included below one such message. Thank you for your fair treatment in this manner. Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm _______________________ Re: Spam - do not respond with an automatic message Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 11:11:55 -0400 From: William Gull To: Saman Ahmadi I need to see a complaint from the Newsgroup administrator i order to cancel the Bigfoot account. Currently you are the only person complaining about this address, which is not sufficient cause for terminating the account. I need multiple complaints from multiple users. Thank you. ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2000 9:40 AM Subject: Professor Juan Cole on Right Wing bahais "....right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute." --Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan Full text at https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/technique.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 6:24 AM Subject: bahai - Character Assassination.... The bahai fundamentalist way: "But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence." --K. Paul Johnson Full text via https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 6:25 AM Subject: Brief Bio.... Impartial nonbahai observers might wish to compare and decide for themselves whether the picture fundamentalists labor so hard to paint of me is accurate or not: https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm And then ask yourself why would they go to such extremes? What is it they don't want you to know? I submit the answers may be found on my bahai webpages.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Jeanne Hales[SMTP:jhales@mail1.asf.alaska.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 8:25 PM To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Like your page Fred, I've read most of the documents on your page, and I have one question: there is a reference to a Dr. Daniel Jordan, then another reference to Dan Jordan. Is this a case of a son moving up to fill a NSA seat? My other question is that you seemed to suggest that the Bahai's had something to do with Dr. Jordan's death. Is this purely speculation, or can you recount anything that might lead you to think so? Thanks, Jean ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 5:43 AM Subject: [ bahai ] The Technique - ESSENTIAL READING During the last several years a number of observers have noted common methods many fundamentalist Bahais use to avoid various issues or discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Mr Mahdi, November 14, 2000: "The extremism of those who are trying to get Fred Glaysher off the Internet is beyond any rational justification, for the simple fact that Fred does not use any lewd or obscene language nor does he post irrelevant topics that are not worthy of discussion. Bahais seem to be so obsessed at maintaining their superficial "progressive" image that anything that exposes the . . . hypocrisy of the bahai faith are suppressed and attacked, in order for the bahais to keep deceiving people into thinking that these are unwarranted and baseless attacks and accusations which hold no weight in reality." Professor Juan Cole, June 12, 1998: "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified threats of declaring him or her a CB [Covenant Breaker (heretic)] to silence the individual, and if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the gullibility of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket." "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization ostensibly committed to tolerance!" https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Cole10.htm Professor Juan Cole, February 23, 1999: "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon them to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do not fall silent." "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech about the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You will note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long-term heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose with the facts,' and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused of all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been backbitten by them." "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute." "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five years. He can explain it to you." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Cole71.htm Frederick Glaysher, May 12, 1992: "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [since 1976]. The usual stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the Truth." https://fglaysher.com/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm Ron House, November 14, 1997: "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so much he says something intemperate, then point out how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this technique works, so I've been making a conscious effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. At any other time, they would overlook faults, as Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode they go for the jugular. Very sad." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/House2.htm Fran Baker, May 1998: "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a groupacts this way. Very scary." Frederick Glaysher, June 1998: "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to talk.religion.bahai." K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in their condemnations of their fellow believers, I would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not character assassination by innuendo, what is?" https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Johnson18.htm Gibro28W, October 12, 1998:"In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out as "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs of its members in the first place." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb73.htm Barthaman, September 14, 1998: "Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned by their fathers, so-to-speak. They have been cast out and dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too. Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)-- after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion? Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on, however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud. Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb66.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Johnson21.htm And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb65.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 5:45 AM Subject: [ bahai ] ESSENTIAL READING - The Technique During the last several years a number of observers have noted common methods many fundamentalist Bahais use to avoid various issues or discredit people who hold opinions other than their own: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Mr Mahdi, November 14, 2000: "The extremism of those who are trying to get Fred Glaysher off the Internet is beyond any rational justification, for the simple fact that Fred does not use any lewd or obscene language nor does he post irrelevant topics that are not worthy of discussion. Bahais seem to be so obsessed at maintaining their superficial "progressive" image that anything that exposes the . . . hypocrisy of the bahai faith are suppressed and attacked, in order for the bahais to keep deceiving people into thinking that these are unwarranted and baseless attacks and accusations which hold no weight in reality." Professor Juan Cole, University of Michigan, June 12, 1998: "Let me ask you why in the world you think that I would risk my professional reputation by publicly stating falsehoods? ...The very technique of the more glaze-eyed among these people is to unbearably bully a Baha'i whom they don't like, use unjustified threats of declaring him or her a CB [Covenant Breaker (heretic)] to silence the individual, and if the person will not be silenced, then to depend upon the gullibility of the Baha'is in refusing to listen to any victim's story because, of course, the Baha'i institutions are infallible and divinely guided and could never do anything wrong. It is a perfect racket." "Of course, this technique of making liberals go away has been enormously successful, and ex-Baha'i liberals have no credibility with the remaining Baha'is nor do most of them have any energy to continue to make a case, either to the Baha'is or the outside world, for the incredible abuses that go on inside this organization ostensibly committed to tolerance!" https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Cole10.htm Professor Juan Cole, February 23, 1999: "There is nothing to be puzzled by. Right wing Baha'is only like to hear the sound of their own voices (which are the only voices they will admit to being "Baha'i" at all)." "Obviously, the world is so constructed that they cannot in fact only hear their own voices. They are forced to hear other voices that differ from theirs. This most disturbs them when the voices come from enrolled Baha'is or when the voices speak of the Baha'i faith." "The way they sometimes deal with the enrolled Baha'is is to summon them to a heresy inquiry and threaten them with being shunned if they do not fall silent." "With non-Baha'is or with ex-Baha'is, they deal with their speech about the faith by backbiting, slandering and libelling the speaker. You will note that since I've been on this list I have been accused of long-term heresy, of "claiming authority," of out and out lying (though that was retracted, twice), of misrepresentation, of 'playing fast and loose with the facts,' and even of being 'delusional.' I have been accused of all these falsehoods by *Baha'is*, by prominent Baha'is. I have been backbitten by them." "This shows that all the talk about the danger a sharp tongue can do, all the talk about the need for harmony, for returning poison with honey, for a sin-covering eye, is just *talk* among right wing Baha'is. No one fights dirtier than they when they discover a voice they cannot silence and cannot refute." "Paul Johnson has seen all these things, as well, for the past five years. He can explain it to you." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Cole71.htm Frederick Glaysher, May 12, 1992: "The Baha'i Faith has become very oppressive and manipulative of the individual. That to me is merely a statement of fact, as I have experienced it, for nearly sixteen years now [since 1976]. The usual stratagem in dealing with anyone who would express his conscience in good faith is to pretend the Cause is above any kind of criticism whatsoever while intimating that anyone who would speak honestly must have something wrong with him, i.e., his spiritual life isn't what it should be, he doesn't understand the nature of unity, or he's accused of trying to obtain power for himself, which at times seems merely a calculated way of discrediting the person, and so on. Another common strategy used to acquire control over the individual is to humor the person by letting him pour himself out, etc., and then self-righteously giving him the Truth." https://fglaysher.com/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm Ron House, November 14, 1997: "I know what you mean. I've found over the years that there is a technique used by traditional Baha'is and others to squash dissension: harry the dissenter so much he says something intemperate, then point out how 'loving' and 'compassionate' they are and how nasty the dissenter is. The trouble is that this technique works, so I've been making a conscious effort not to fall for it. Also, when they get the dissenter discouraged and miserable enough, he invariably makes a slip-up sooner or later that they can REALLY let loose the venom over. IMHO, they did this to you when you misread Sharon's intentions. At any other time, they would overlook faults, as Baha'u'llah says, but when they're in this mode they go for the jugular. Very sad." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/House2.htm Fran Baker, May 1998: "Just have to say that in my experience this is a common technique of manipulative people in general; it is especially effective with thoughtful people who are willing to see both sides of things, i.e., their own fault. I consider this brow-beating technique to be a form of abuse. The only way to deal with it is to call them on it every time and to refuse to let yourself be beat up, i.e., not to do your part of the "tango." This can be very hard to do, but it works.You can break this pattern in a personal relationship. I don't know whether it's possible when a groupacts this way. Very scary." Frederick Glaysher, June 1998: "Some of the most striking methods demonstrated repeatedly by many Bahais during the last year and a half of discussion about an unmoderated newsgroup is their refusal to listen and respond to the criticisms of those who are in favor of talk.religion.bahai, ignoring their concerns, never responding analytically to their messages and reasoning and logic and evidence, attacking them through character assassination and ad hominem, ganging up on individuals, and "circling the wagons" around every action of the srb moderators or others who are opposed to talk.religion.bahai." K. Paul Johnson, September 15, 1998: "If that principle [people are innocent until proven guilty] were followed by Baha'i administration and individuals in their condemnations of their fellow believers, I would have very little to complain about regarding Baha'i affairs. But character assassination by innuendo is the preferred way of dealing with anything remotely resembling dissidence. Seems like that's exactly what you're doing to Juan Cole in your message. Saying I don't want to know what you've "got" on him, thus attacking me but insinuating you have some awful proof of unspecified guilt on his part. If that's not character assassination by innuendo, what is?" https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Johnson18.htm Gibro28W, October 12, 1998:"In summary, the biggest problem, as I see it, is that most Baha'is don't take criticism seriously--they tune it out as "negative" or "harmful to spiritual growth." This selfish attitude is very stupid. First of all, Baha'is entice people to join them. When they do, they indoctrinate them until they think like the group. But as soon as a red flare of doubt goes up in the convert's mind, they're cordoned off by the group and reminded of their "spiritual" obligations in the name of Baha'u'llah or the "Covenant." If left unresolved and doubt gives vent to prolonged criticism, the convert is sent packing or is kicked out. What we have here is a broken family that had failed to truly listen to the needs of its members in the first place." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb73.htm Barthaman, September 14, 1998: "Baha'i dissenters, more or less, are wounded souls abandoned by their fathers, so-to-speak. They have been cast out and dismissed or shunned without having had a fair hearing. Consider their pain when the rest of their "family" dismisses them too. Can you know what it's like to be accused of heresy and shunned following a sincere intellectual conflict (inspired by doubt)-- after you've sacrificed years in devoted service to your religion? Can you comprehend their sense of betrayal and injustice? This is why disillusioned believers leave their religions each year--while some still hang around, banging on the door now and then, demanding a refund for their lost youth. In time they will have to move on, however, writing the Baha'i Faith off as another lesson in fraud. Mock these people all you want--but for the grace of God, the next dissenter could be you. Don't be too confident, my friend." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb66.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Cf. K. Paul Johnson's general reflections on coercive techniques https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Johnson21.htm And LaAeterna's method of silencing opponents https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb65.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 5:46 AM Subject: [ bahai ] Newcomers - START HERE Given the incessant character attacks on American and UK academics and others by bahai fundamentalists, if newcomers to talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai desire not to be deceived, it will require more than a passing glance at a few messages. I suggest you begin with the links below which provide a historical survey of the last several years of bahai censorship and then visit further my and Professor Cole's websites. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Bahai Technique ---- Essential Reading https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/technique.htm soc.religion.bahai - Brief Quotations Documenting Censorship https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb-bq.htm alt.religion.bahai & talk.religion.bahai FAQ https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/FAQ.htm Bahai Attacks & Bullying https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/BahaiAttacksonme.htm Bahai Threats of Lawsuits & Censorship on AOL https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/BahaiThreatsLawsuit.htm Discussion Agenda for Talk.Religion.Bahai https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/DiscussionAgendaTrb.htm False Membership Statistics on Encyclopedia Britannica https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/FalseStats.htm Continuing Harassment 1/31/2000 https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/CHarassment.htm uhj LIES to United Nations & US Government June 2000 https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/UN.htm bahais at United Nations Millennium Forum & Summit June 2000 https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/UN2.htm To uhj 12-10-1999https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/uhj12-10-99.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/UHJ72498.htm To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, surveys the many incidents of bahai censorship that have taken place during the last few decades in "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 5:47 AM Subject: [ bahai ] Messages to uhj.... This file contains two messages: "to uhj 12-10-99," "to uhj 7-24-1998": From: Patrick Henry Subject: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:33 AM Given the uhj's oppressive tactics and violation of the human rights of Linda and John Walbridge, Stephen Scholl, other editors of the Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff who resigned, and so on, and so on, and so on.... All the victims documented on my website.... I hesitate to put the uhj above any reprehensible act.... including conspiracy to murder Dr. Daniel Jordan. I have been a member of the Bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my website. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. Anything I have ever said is a matter of the sanctity of my individual God-given conscience that both Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha claimed would never be violated in their religion. I shall "cc" this message to the uhj so that they hear from me directly on the matter. I would consider it an honor to be one of its official victims; indeed, the highest spiritual achievement of my Bahai life, defending Baha'u'llah'sTeachings from the fanaticism that has overwhelmed and hamstrung his Revelation. -- Frederick Glaysher.... "Give me liberty or give me death!" The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (Confirmation of receipt by the uhj of the message above.) From: Incoming Electronic Communication Operations Subject: Your Message Has Been Received... Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 5:36 AM Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message regarding: Re: Fred's Baha'i Membership Could Not Confirmed has been received at the Baha'i World Centre. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Patrick Henry patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com To: UHJ ; Letters to Editor ; bahai-faith @ makelist.com Subject: To UHJ July 24, 1998 Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 9:03 PM July 24,1998 Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: As a Bahai, I am saddened by the news of the execution of yet another Bahai in Iran. However, the immediate public statements made by Firuz Kazemzadeh of the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, reminiscent of Robert Henderson's piece in The New York Times on January 13th of this year, appear equally lamentable for their blatant hypocrisy: "We had hoped that President Khatami's assertions about freedom, justice and the rule of law in Iran would apply to the Baha'is of that country.... We urge the international community to protest vigorously Mr. Rowhani's killing and to seek justice for the beleaguered Iranian Baha'i community." The tragic loss of Bahai lives in Iran and the subsequent exploitation of their deaths by Bahai spokesmen, often in the American media, always courting the President and other members of the government, has become a predictable pattern rendered intolerable in the context of continuing and pervasive Bahai censorship and denial of human and civil rights in the United States and elsewhere. Such incidents as I queried you about in my unanswered email of March 31, 1997, available on my Web site, regarding the crushing of the magazine Dialogue, the resignations of a number of scholars from the Bahai Encyclopedia, the attacks on the listserv known as Talisman I at Indiana University, the harassing and blacklisting of many individuals, Bahai and non-Bahai, suggest profoundly deep-seated problems within the Bahai community and administration. https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm To these incidents must now be added the apparent conspiracy for more than a year and a half of the Bahai Computer and Communications Committee (BCCA), under the chairmanship of Mark Towfiq, to defeat twice now, along with thecollusion of other Bahais, the creation of an unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith which would be known as talk.religion.bahai. You may find extensive documentation for all of these violations of the basic human rights of many Bahais and non-Bahais on my Web site, "The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience": https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm Because the third interest poll for talk.religion.bahai on Usenet is approaching, after August 28th, I ask you again to investigate the BCCA and its depriving me of access last November from all private Bahai-only mailing lists at a crucial moment just when the tide of discussion was going very much in favor of the newsgroup, noted by many observers. I also ask whether you supported or were involved in that decision? The relevant files can be found on my Web site under Bahai-Discuss Archives. https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/BCCAmenu.htm Similarly, I would like to know whether your institution or the BCCA has approved of or advocated the recent ban of my email signature file by the moderators of soc.religion.bahai, as well as their complete ban for more than a year and a half now on all discussion regarding talk.religion.bahai. The prevailing atmosphere of suppression of free speech and religious conscience that now characterizes the Bahai Faith cannot but call into question the honesty of many members of the Bahai administration and perhaps the institutions themselves. I ask once more whether censorship is allowed in the Bahai Faith and what passages of the Bahai Writings support it, what are the "rules," if you will, of Bahai censorship? -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 5:48 AM Subject: [ bahai ] soc.religion.bahai; FAQ - trb This file contains two messages: talk.religion.bahai FAQ and observations on soc.religion.bahai censorship: ---------------------------------------------------- SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI: Robert J. Pease, December 5, 1998: "I support your efforts to expose SRB as a fundamentalist group." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb84.htm Ron House: "I think the following is a clear case of malicious rejection of an article by the worst of the moderators of soc.religion.bahai." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb53.htm Timothy Mulligan: "(Sigh) Fred, I'm beginning to think you're right about those SRB moderators." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb59.htm RobertNik: "these guys are pompous arseholes IMHO." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb54.htm Bruce Burrill: "What are Baha'i afraid of?" https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb60.htm Zuteflute: "Frankly I could not see anything in the letter I wrote which would prompt someone to ask whether or not I am a Baha'i." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb50.htm YU ZIR: "But as an outsider, I can perhaps see the point Fred Glaysher is making, and which point none of SRB's defenders seem to address." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb46.htm Matthew Cromer: "The current moderators regulate the contents--posting articles which they agree with...." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb47.htm Kavosh Soltani, December 9, 1998:"So many Bahais on these forumshave shown to be ready to forget logic and reason, ignore clear evidence and Word of God, and come up with exactly the same line of tired and inaccurate excuses and arguments to justify their position, that it can not be a simple coincidence." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb77.htm Shakti3, December 4, 1998: "Sorry to hear that you've been surpressed on srb. Your comments were alway very "right on." Altho it does not surprise me one bit, seeing the way these newsgroups operate." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Ex7.htm Harold Shinsato: "It seems like there is an oppression over the Baha'i Faith." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb33.htm Steve Tomljenovic, December 3, 1998: "The moderators are a bit overzealous at times. Since all the controversy started, it has gotten worse." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb79.htm Laeterna: "To say I was flabberghasted at this type of "moderating" was putting it mildly indeed." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/censored2.htm Robin Peters: "I think you're to be commended for your persistence in the face of consistent censorship." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb43.htm jgoldberg: "I refuse to post on soc.religion.bahai because of the arbitrary and mean-spirited manner of censorship practiced by the moderators. " https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb57.htm Ruletherod, November 17, 1998: "Too much damage has already been done in the name and to the name of Baha'u'llah by right-wing administrative bullies, linear-thinking apologists, and doctrinaire-fundamentalists. You can't just blame it all on the critics." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb76.htm Many other similar messages may be found on my web site under soc.religion.bahai censorship. https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) for Alt.Religion.Bahai, Talk.Religion.Bahai This FAQ will be reposted approximately every two weeks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ People with only web access might want to use www.deja.com www.reference.com or www.newsguy.com or https://www.remarq.com/ They all offer reading and posting capabilities for people who can't directly access alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai and filter out spam. Alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai are available on America Online (AOL) Keyword, Newsgroups, then search for alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai An unmoderated Italian Bahai newgroup is now available: it.cultura.religioni.bahai If your ISP does not offer talk.religion.bahai, follow this news.groupie advice: "If your ISP doesn't have the group shortly, I suggest that you ask the newsmaster there to add it (Try news@isp.net, or newsmaster@isp.net) Ask politely. Include the msg ID of the results posting, and of the newgroup msg." Dave Cornejo's RESULT posting: https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp? AN=431106082&CONTEXT=918305125.781648012&hi tnum=0 David Lawrence's newgroup msg creating talk.religion.bahai: https://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp? AN=434026333&CONTEXT=918304600.713490686&hi tnum=3 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ NOTE: Not all people agree on the interpretations given below. Question #1 "Why create arb or t.r.b.?" ANSWER #1: Because many people believe they experienced or are continuing to experience censorship when attempting to post to soc.religion.bahai. See the quotations from Abdu'l-Baha: https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/bahai.htm ANSWER #2: Because the Bahai writings support free speech andreligious conscience.https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/bahai.htm ANSWER #3: [fill in the blank according to your own opinion.] Question #2: "Why do the srb moderators oppose trb?" ANSWER: Perhaps they'll supply an answer to place here. (Three years later their NO votes are their only answer.) Question #3: "Are Bahais opposed to freedom of speech and conscience?" ANSWER: Despite glowing words of love and support for other people's opinions, despite the Universal House of Justice stating at least publicly it is not opposed to an unmoderated forum, the record of actual behavior by Bahais and on soc.religion.bahai and the experience of TENS of THOUSANDS of Bahais and people who have left the Bahai Faith give serious reason for concern. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chronology of major events: talk.religion.bahai ---------------------------------------------------------------------- January 17, 1997: The 1st proposal for talk.religion.bahai was submitted to news.announce.newgroups. https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/1stRFD.htm Early March 1997: Mark Towfiq, chairman of the BCCA, the Bahai Computer and Communication Association, posts to three Bahai-only mailing lists a call for Bahais to vote NO against talk.religion.bahai. https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Towfiq.htm March 1997: soc.religion.bahai bans all discussion of talk.religion.bahai from its newsgroup. This ban is still in effect more than a year and a half later. March 31, 1997: The 1st proposal was defeated 157 YES to 691 NO. https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/1stRESULT.htm April 3, 1997: Jonathan Grobe, a non-Bahai, creates alt.religion.bahai. https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/arb.htm October 14, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releasesa message stating it has no objection to unmoderatednewsgroups: https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/UHJ1.htm November 1997: At a time when discussion was highly favorable in support of talk.religion.bahai, the BCCA deprives Frederick Glaysher of access to the private Bahai-only mailing list bahai-discuss and all of its other lists, inflaming Bahai passions against trb. See bahai-discuss archived files and correspondence between Frederick Glaysher and the BCCA committee: https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/archive.htm December 19, 1997: The Universal House of Justice releases a message that suggests it does not understand the nature of Usenet interest polling: https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/UHJ2.htm January 12, 1998: The 2nd proposal for talk.religion.bahai was submitted. https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/2ndRFD.htm February 22, 1998: The 2nd proposal was defeated 109 YES to 65 NO. https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/2ndRESULT.htm May 25, 1998: srb bans all messages from Frederick Glaysher that contain his signature file: https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb23.htm September 9,1998: America Online (AOL) places a Bahai-inspired TOS against Frederick Glaysher; AOL removes the TOS after considering both sides of the issue, i.e., Bahai messages attacking and threatening him and the experience of others: https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/AOL.htm September 14, 1998: soc.religion.bahai extends its ban on Frederick Glaysher's signature file to include all signature files and URLs from all posters, allowing only email addresses and the name of the poster: https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srbban.htm October 14, 1998: Soc.religion.bahai moderator Bill Hyman backbites and casts aspersions on proponent Ron House and attempts to undermine the new support for the"neutral" RFD: https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/srb67.htm December 3, 1998: The Call For Votes (CFV) was posted to news.announce.newgroups and news.groups for the 3rd interest poll for talk.religion.bahai. https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/3rdRFD.htm December 7, 1998: Bahai scholar Susan Maneck begins her NO vote campaign on AOL and alt.religion.bahai. https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Maneck1.htm January 10, 1999: Talk.religion.bahai passes 218: 63. https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/3rdRESULT.htm It should be noted that talk.religion.bahai eventually passed despite of the opposition of Bahais. The annotated RESULT may be read at https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/3rdRESULT.htm The annotated NO voters list may be read at https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/NOvoters3rd.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------ For past discussion of censorship on soc.religion.bahai and other issues, including censorship within the Bahai community, see the website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This document at https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/FAQ.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 5:49 AM Subject: [ bahai ] Censorship on AOL; Lawsuit Threats This file contains two messages: "Bahai Threats of Lawsuits" and "Bahai Censorship on AOL": Given the Bahai threats of lawsuits against me during the spring and early summer of 1999 let me say I have never committed slander against any individual, Bahai or otherwise, nor against any Bahai institution. If anyone has been slandered on talk.religion.bahai, it is I by the constant character assassination Bahais have marshalled against me since the fall of 1996. I'd be happy to appear in court and present an American judge and jury with the evidence of Bahai lies, deceit, censorship, and tyranny over the last decade. I highly doubt any legitimately established jury would look favorably on what Bahai fundamentalists have done to the Walbridges, Juan Cole, Michael McKenny, Stephen Scholl, and many, many other, indeed, TENS of THOUSANDS, of American ex-Bahais.... I'd be happy to appear in an American court and present the judge and jury with the many passages from the Bahai Writings in which the Figures speak favorably of free speech and conscience, such as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. Only one of the nine tyrants on Mt. Carmel could distort such passages to mean the kinds of things they have had the gall to foist on American Bahais in their statement this April, which Professor Juan Cole has candidly and accurately referred to as an "outburst of vehement ignorance." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Outburst.htm Bahais falsely accuse me of slander. Far from slandering the UHJ, I have stood up to Bahai fundamentalists and honestly spoken my conscience. They are free to call that "slander." I doubtany judge or jury in the West would call it such, especially after reading the EVIDENCE and reflecting on the enormous discrepancy between the sycophantic treatment leaders in government, the UN, and the media regularly receive from Bahais who are always interested in attempting to exploit their positions of power for one reason or another and the reality of abuse of the most basic human rights now well documented on Professor Juan Cole's website and on mine. I trust the American legal system to protect me from such organizations and fundamentalist reprobates. The objective observer will note the Bahai tactic of resorting to threats and intimidation instead of engaging in discussion of the actual incidents of censorship and oppression, extensively noted in "The Bahai Technique." https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/technique.htm Such tactics remind me of a comment by Dr. Martin Luther King in his Letter from Birmingham Jail: "You deplore the demonstrations taking place in Birmingham. But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations." Fundamentalist Bahais typify this same mentality. They rail and threaten me, and others who dare speak their minds, but express no concern whatsoever for the underlying conditions of censorship and oppression that have led to distrust and contempt for the UHJ and its fascist distortion of Baha'u'llah's Teachings. Everything I have said is a matter of religious conscience protected under the US Constitution. My Bahai membership card proves it, and a scanned copy of it may be found on my website. I would be happy to present the original to any judge or jury in the land. "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." --Thomas Jefferson -- Patrick Henry "Give me liberty or give me death."Visit The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/bahai.htm Saman Ahmadi wrote in messagenews:376EF2DE.221BD43@earthlink.net... > > I have stated that I may sue you - that is singular. I am not aware of > anyone else's attempt. BTW, my suing you is not a threat - a threat > is I will do this if you do that. You have already crossed that line. > I > said I would first take it up with Dejanews - Roger pointed out that > you were not using Dejanews to post your articles so I suppose it > is bigfoot at first. > > Now, if it gets to the point that I decide to sue you, I will offer > anyone > who wishes to join in a class-action suit, if that is legally possible. > > My feet are firmly on the ground - I am not joking or mincing words. > > Saman Ahmadi > > > Patrick Henry wrote: > > > Given the recurrent Bahai threats of lawsuits against me, > > let me say I have never committed slander. > > P.S. Ever heard of the Furman tapes? > ------------------------------------------------------------- BAHAI CENSORSHIP ON AOL: In August of 1998 I took out an account on AOL. It quickly became apparent that my fellow Bahais were using AOL in such a way as to further withhold knowledge and information from AOL's more than 14 million members. It appeared to me that there were four main issues. Alt.religion.bahai, which had been created in April of 1997 and which had had more than 20,000 messages posted to it, was not even offered in the list of AOL newsgroups. AOL personnel with which I spoke over the phone werevery puzzled why it wasn't and even implied that some action would have had to have been taken to keep it from automatically being picked up and added to their newsgroups. It took more than a month of strenuous effort to get AOL to add alt.religion.bahai. On the AOL Bahai Forums it became apparent that Bahais were manipulating and controlling information by NOT making it available, by essentially preserving the frozen, non-functioning state of affairs or the status quo: 1. The Libraries were not accepting new uploads for others then to download and read. 2. The list of Newsgroups on the Main Menu for Bahai offered only soc.religion.bahai with no mention of alt.religion.bahai, or talk.religion.bahai once it was created in January of 1999. Coupled with soc.religion.bahai's suppression of all mention of alt.religion.bahai or talk.religion.bahai, this prevents people from even hearing of their existence. 3. The available links for Web Sites on the Main Menu for Bahai did not offered my website The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience, though it has to be one of the most visited sites on the Bahai Faith with more than 7,000 hits since May 1998. As the months went by, my repeated attempts to improve these deficiencies met with greater and greater opposition from the Bahai fundamentalists on AOL. Similiarly, my requests, beginning in August of 1998, that the Forum Leader, Mark Foster, who no one had seen for months, resign, for derilection of duty, were increasingly opposed while various excuses were offered for his absence. Not until talk.religion.bahai was passed five months later in January 1999 did he suddenly reappear only to begin immediately reporting absolutely EVERY message I posted to AOL as a TOS. It quickly became clear to me that he was back in order to target and build a case against me to have me suspended from AOL. My account was then temporarily suspended on three different occasions and finally terminated March 6, 1999. Of the four issues, only two have partially been remedied. 1. Alt.religion.bahai and now talk.religion.bahai are available under AOL's Keyword Newsgroups, Expert Add. 2. The Libraries are accepting some uploads, though Foster banned the 15+ megabytes I uploaded in late February of my entire archive of discussion for talk.religion.bahai and which is at least available on my website. It's obvious Foster is finding pretexts for suppressing further uploads. While Foster has claimed since mid-January that alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai would be added to the Main Menu under Newsgroups, he continued to make excuses for it not happening. As of March 9, 1999 they were not yet listed under Newsgroups along with soc.religion.bahai. All of these factors, coupled with Mark Foster's abuse of his position as Forum Leader and his harassing and targetting of dissenting voices, not only mine, leaves no doubt that he and other Bahais, including some among the Bahai Administration, are involved in manipulating and censoring discourse on AOL. For an instance of "back-channel" email coercion on AOL see https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/AOL.htm For an instance of Foster's double standard handling fundamentalist Bahais see Susan Maneck's accusations on AOL against me of "slander" and references to my views as "garbage" and "litter": https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Maneck1.htm The immediate pretext for terminating my account, according to the AOL official with whom I spoke on the phone, was that I had pointed out in a newly created Folder called Censorship that I and other AOL members had requested a Folder entitled Bahai Censorship and thereby undermined the authority of the Forum Leader.... In closing let me add that AOL personnel are extremely uninformed about the Bahai Faith, especially its practice of censorship, and its ability to exploit the TOS system.... Half a megabyte of messages documenting Bahai censorship on AOL may be found at https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/AOL.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 5:50 AM Subject: [ bahai ] Attacks by Bullies This file contains two messages: "Attacks by Bahais" & "Bahai Bullying": The non-Bahai will note that a year later, now March 2000, my fellow Bahais only continue, with renewed ferocity, their attempts to silence and suppress what they don't want you to know about: Incessant Bahai attacks upon my freedom of speech and liberty, as well as on others, have made it necessary for me to adopt a persona for my own protection and well being. Other measures have been taken. During the late winter and spring of 1999, Bahais twice flooded my hotmail account with up to 1000 messages per day resulting in considerable inconvenience and expenditure of time and effort to block, and ultimately close, the offending accounts; they have, by using numerous Bahai trolls, especially Gyr Falcon, slandered, maligned, and caricatured me in a further effort to discredit me and portray me on talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere as a disturbed and errant individual; through concerted false charges and allegations against me, they have now succeeded in deceiving Hotmail into closing my email account, which I depended on for a considerable part of my income and livelihood. For documentation of many similar incidents of Bahai oppression during the last decade, see The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/bahai.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- BULLYING: I'm alarmed at the Bahai attempts, during May of 1999, at character assassination, ridicule, and generally portraying me and others as disturbed individuals. This tactic has been used for over three years and continues to be used against me and other Bahais and non-Bahais or ex-Bahais on and off talk.religion.bahai. I have never claimed to be perfect. At times I have apologized to Bahais, Muslims, and other non-Bahais when I felt, or was convinced, that I was wrong or hadspoken unfairly. I find the constant technique to portray me as a megalomanic or paranoid quite offensive. Similarly, the tactic of accusing me of spam for posting my opinions is calculated to discredit the validity of my and others' concerns regarding censorship in Bahai forums and has also been used on AOL. Such accusations reveal the frustration that Bahai fundamentalists apparently feel over my having found ways of enduring and resisting the onslaught of their concerted attacks, while preserving a historical record on a markedly ephermeral medium for innocent Bahais and non-Bahais.... Fair-minded Bahai and non-Bahai observers may judge for themselves whether my and others' allegations of censorship are valid by reading the record preserved under "Assorted Controversial Documents" on my website at https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/bahai.htm As further corroboration that I am not the only person concerned with the intolerance and censorship that has overtaken the Bahai Faith, I recommend Professor Juan Cole's new book Modernity & the Millennium: The Genesis of the Bahai Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East, available through Columbia University Press or Amazon.com at https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0231110812/002-4036721-8058448 In his conclusion, which would never have passed the system of Bahai "review" that the UHJ imposes on all publications brought out under its tight control, Professor Cole, of the Department of History at The University of Michigan, quite accurately identifies the distortions that have been wreaked upon Baha'u'llah's Teachings: "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural literalism, patriachy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth- century Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a minority view, by the late 1990s adifferent set of emphases prevailed." (196) He himself and many others, as evidence under the"Assorted Controversial Documents," have suffered at the hands of the fundamentalists who have taken control of the religion: "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement." (201) These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on AOL, talk.religion.bahai, and alt.religion.bahai for impartial viewers to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. Ultimately, it is the Bahai Universal House of Justice that is responsible for the perversion and corruption of such clear and elevating teachings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha as the following: "These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of the contingent world." Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveler's Narrative, 91. The UHJ is also in the end responsible for inciting Bahai fanatics and fundamentalists to attack other Bahais and non-Bahais merely for their views expressed on and off line in free forums of public discussion. I recommend all newcomers to these matters read "The Bahai Technique": https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/technique.htm On The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience: https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/bahai.htm Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/UHJLetterApril71999.htm Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 5:52 AM Subject: [ bahai ] What's Never Discussed.... Even though the bahai administration's imposition of censorship through "review" obviates any real discussion and exchange of opinion within the bahai faith, I provide the "headlines" of what attempts have been made below for newcomers and Bahais on talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai. Otherwise, other than my periodic reposts to preserve the historical record, I expect to be posting less frequently, having learnt during the last years, since fall 1996, what I needed to know about my fellow Bahais and the uhj.... I am content to have played a central role in the propagation or creation of alt.religion.bahai and talk.religion.bahai, forums where others of all points of view and persuasions may now speak freely about the Bahai faith. Should anything be posted that might be especially suitable for my website, I'd appreciate someone posting a copy to talk.religion.bahai with "Bahai" in the subject line. Unlikely as it may be, should the uhj come to its senses and abolish "review," I'd appreciate someone informing me to that effect.... In the meantime, I must return to my literary interests, prepared for, and now accepting, a more arduous psychomachia.... Others will have to step forward.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------- Newcomers might want to start here: The Bahai Technique Essential Reading Reposts of several messages documenting censorship and harassment. See especially below by Prof. Juan Cole & Assorted Controversial Documents. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Juan Cole surveys major incidents of Bahai censorship: "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997" "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Baha'i Scriptures" "Race, Immorality and Money in the American Baha'i Community" Religion 30, 2 (2000) uhj 8 August 1999 - Re Professor Juan Cole, Modernity and the Millennium ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Assorted Controversial Documents: "A Modest Proposal" 1987 David Langness "The Service of Women" 1988 Several authors [Bahai] "Psychiatrist cuts deal on sex assault charges" 4/94 re Dr. Danesh The Majnun Post 2/7/96 (On talisman) John Walbridge The Pickering Tape 4/96 "Crisis of Faith" 5/15/96 Steven Scholl Letter: Stephen Birkland, Continental Board of Counsellors 7/16/96 "Baha'i Leaders Vexed by On-Line Critics" Winter 1997 Stephen Scholl re the suppression of Dialogue Magazine 1997 Mark Towfiq's NO Vote Campaign on BCCA mailing lists 3/12/97 Michael McKenny - uhj throws him out of the Bahai faith 7/97 BCCA Collusion Suppressing talk.religion.bahai Fall 1997 Susan Maneck's NO Vote Campaign on AOL 12/7/98 Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - NSA warns Australian Bahais 11/4/97 Nima Hazini - ex-Bahai - his response to Bahai NSA Surveillance 9/7/99 My case - a letter to my friends 7/28/99 Terry Culhane Juan Cole, Dismissal of NSA Member Judge James F. Nelson... April 1999 Doug Martin's uhj Backbiting Campaign Against Juan Cole 8/3/99 Brief History of Douglas Martin, member, uhj 1/31/00 How "Review" acts as Censorship 3/28/00 Alison Marshall re Bahai World Alison Marshall - "Removed your Name from Membership Rolls" 3/29/00 Informal History of a Rural Baha'i Community, Karen Bacquet Full Text of UHJ's Letter of April 7, 1999 Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" Letter of Resignation - Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Universal House of Justice: To uhj 12-10-1999 Frederick Glaysher To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 Frederick Glaysher To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 Frederick Glaysher From the UHJ: 14 October 1997 From the UHJ: 19 December 1997 To the UHJ: December 21, 1997 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Talk.Religion.Bahai finally passed on 3rd Vote - 218: 63 Talk.Religion.Bahai passed Jan 17 1997 - All related RFDs & Results, Documents ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Newspaper Articles/Releases: Media ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan,discusses related issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963- 1997," which surveys the many, many incidents of censorship and oppression that have taken place in the Bahai faith during the last decade or more: https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm Also see: Juan Cole, "Commentary" on UHJ's "outburst of vehement ignorance" https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/Outburst.htm Letter of Resignation from Paul Dodenhoff, Assistant to the Auxiliary Board https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/LetterResignationPD.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 5:53 AM Subject: [ bahai ] Continual Harassment It is the bahai way.... further proven by the August 2000 attacks on Professor Juan Cole, of the History Department of the University of Michigan, by Susan Maneck on talk.religion.bahai.... I believe it is the counter on my website, registering over 20,000, that inspires the desperate, futile efforts of my fellow Bahais to silence and discredit me, as well as their fanatical attempts to suppress any possible knowledge of the truth documented there. In February 2000, I filed a police report regarding a variety of items and placed a trace on my telephone line. Other actions have been taken. While my fellow Bahais continue to attack, harass, malign, and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, and elsewhere, falsely accusing me of "spamming," of misrepresenting the intrigues of the "universal" house of "justice" to silence and ostracize people, of being mentally unstable and so on, it has been widely observed by other Bahais and non-Bahais that Bahai fundamentalists routinely refuse all discussion of the facts and EVIDENCE of the oppression and tyranny committed by the uhj. Those interested in impartially judging my sanity and background for themselves may find my bio helpful: https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm ----- The non-Bahai observer might want to give careful consideration to the probability that the ujh itself supported and encouraged this person in his continual harassment of me since I notified them of his actions on January 30, 2000, receiving back confirmation of their receipt of my message, while he continued hounding me for weeks. The three-plus year record of Bahai tyranny, on my website, documents that fundamentalist Bahais have gone from one attempt to another in the hope of silencing me and many, many others. ----- On January 30, 2000, I wrote to the uhj: A Bahai continues to harass me despite my polite requests that he cease emailing me his insults and threats. I hold the uhj directly responsible for the actions of this and other Bahai fanatics. The uhj routinely inspires this type of fundamentalism in my fellow Bahais and then uses them to suppress and control others. I shall be sending a copy of this message to the uhj alongwith the individual's name and email address. As a member of the Bahai faith since 1976, I have every right to express my conscience and beliefs as both Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha guaranteed their followers.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Bahá'í World Centre To: Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 11:09 AM Subject: RE: Bahai>>> Continuing Harassment Dear Friend, This is an automated acknowledgement. Your message has been received at the Bahá'í World Centre. Electronic Communications Operation, Bahá'í World Centre ----- When I asked him to desist, he spammed my account with a dozen copies of this message: >I will post you and I will stand behind everything I wrote............. One of his earlier messages was: > You have truly mastered the high-tech form of rhetorical masturbation. >You continue to post the things which seem to excite you the most to people >who don't really care what you are posting. It is a shame that you feel >that this has become such a deep seated motivation for so much of your time.I have heard all the drivel you are posting, before, and it has always come >from individuals who have had their hand slapped for one reason or another. >Get over it. The Baha'i Faith is divine and nothing you can say(mostly >imagination) can ever effect it in the least. You will never have the >opportunity to understand the significance of the UHJ or its members in >your lifetime. Jealousy takes all forms. Why not stick to an area of your >expertise and get out of this one? No one here cares anymore about you or >your fantasies. "Mark Elderkin" wrote in message news:JuXu4.20$1j4.2147@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...> > > It was a common stratagem of the Soviets and > > their academic puppets in the West to smear > > the characters and reputations of people who > > had the courage and honesty to confront the reality > > of the use of terror and tyranny by Stalin and his > > ilk. > > > > Comparably speaking, it will require a great effort on > > the part of those interested in the truth about the > > current Bahai uhj if they are not to be misled by my > > fellow Bahais and their deceptions on talk.religion.bahai > > and elsewhere. > > It is nice to see that Fred can actually write a real posting here. Now if we can get Fred to quit cross-posting to people who don't want to here or see of him. I have an idea. I think Fred needs to quit hiding behind his > usual spam postings of Patrick Henry. So ..... here goes...... 'give me > liberty or, > give Fred a call: > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXXX > and as you can see, I have cross-posted this to all of Fred Preselected > news-servers. Let your fingers do the walking. > Mark "Mark Elderkin" wrote in message news:hH1v4.125$1j4.6711@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net... > Pat and all others concerned, > I probably misstepped the guidelines by posting Freddys Facts ........ > but I think it will give Fred a chance to realize that he is not-so > anonomous anymore and might wish to quit cross-posting. I understand that > there are a lot of crazys out there that might not like the things he > regularly posts and now he can't hide behind his mothers dress. I have > posted my own phone number before and will always make myself available for > anyones input. Thanks. > Always Remember... Let your fingers do the walking. > Mark ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 5:54 AM Subject: [ bahai ] Lying to the United Nations.... No. 1 As an accredited participant, I attended the United Nations Millennium Forum of civil society organizations from May 22-26, 2000. Some may be interested in knowing that bahais were central to the event which produced a report to advise heads of state to the Millennium Summit September 6-8, 2000 at the United Nations - the largest gathering of so many national heads of state since WW II. "The final edited version of the "We the Peoples Millennium Forum Declaration and Agenda for Action" has now been posted to the Forum's Website. This version includes ... several final additions that were adopted by the Forum on Friday, 26 May 2000 during its final session." It can be found through links at: https://www.millenniumforum.org as well as directly at: https://www.millenniumforum.org/html/papers/mfd26May.htm RealPlayer video of several Millennium Forum sessions, including Techeste Ahderom, co-chair of the forum and principal representative to the United Nations, bahai international community: https://www.un.org/millennium/summit1.htm Also some might find Kofi Annan's "We the Peoples," his official recommendations that will serve as the basis for this September's Millennium Summit, interesting: https://www.un.org/millennium/sg/report/ The uhj, in it's ridvan [April] 2000 message, jubilantly celebrated their increase of power, control, and influence at the United Nations: "It must be a source of great satisfaction to Baha'is everywhere that the Baha'i International Community as an NGO representing a cross-section of humankind has won such trust as a unifying agent in major discussions shaping the future of humankind. Our principal representative at the United Nations was appointed to co-chair the Committee on Non-Governmental Organizations, which was established by the Economic and Social Council--a position that is giving the Baha'i International Community a leading role in the organization of the Millennium Forum. This gathering, called by UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan and scheduled to be held in May, will give organizations of civil society an opportunity to formulate views and recommendations on global issues which will be taken up at the subsequent Millennium Summit in September of this year to be attendedby heads of state and government." https://www.bahai-library.org/published.uhj/ridvan/index.html It was quite an experience hearing Techeste Ahderom, the bahai representative and Forum co-chair, in the UN General Assembly Hall, urging hypocritically the importance of strengthening human rights throughout the world.... He further deceived the assembled leaders at the Millennium Summit on September 8th when he addressed them on behalf of the NGO community pretending to support human rights and democratic values that neither he nor the bahai "administration" respect. See below. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ----- Original Message ----- To: Millennium Forum Discussion Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 6:21 PM Subject: Re: [MFDiscuss] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium Summit > Professor Juan Cole, Department of History, University of Michigan, > observes in the conclusion of his book Modernity and the Millennium > (Columbia University Press, 1998): > > "Some contemporary leaders of the Baha'i Faith have given answers > increasingly similar to those of fundamentalists, stressing scriptural > literalism, patriarchy, theocracy, censorship, intellectual intolerance, and > denying key democratic values. While the values of the nineteenth-century > Baha'i movement, which was far more tolerant, continue to exist as a > minority view, by the late 1990s a different set of emphases prevailed" > (196). > > Cole himself and many others have suffered at the hands of Baha'i > fundamentalists who hide behind putatively liberal activities, > such as at the United Nations: > > "The rise of academic Baha'i scholarship has caused tension in the > community, whose present-day leadership tends to be fundamentalist and > antiliberal in orientation, and this has led to pressure on a number of> prominent academics to resign or dissociate themselves from the movement" > Cole (201). > > These same forces of fundamentalist orthodoxy are evident on > talk.religion.bahai and alt.religion.bahai on Usenet for impartial viewers > to witness. They will be evident to all perceptive observers of whatever > forum Bahais may be trying to control and influence. Both my and Cole's > Bahai websites provide essential documentation along these lines. > > It should be noted that the Universal House of Justice has actively worked > through the BCCA (Bahai Computer and Communications Association) to suppress all links to websites with other than its own "comprehensive" point of view on such major portals as Yahoo.com, Excite.com, and other search engines. > The UHJ has gone even further by advising Bahais to remove any link > whatsoever to Professor Cole's website. See his comments along these lines: > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm > And his article The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997: > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm > > As a Bahai since 1976, I myself have always found especially repulsive the > manner in which Bahai fundamentalists attempt to manipulate the institutions > and leaders of government, the United Nations, and public opinion, while > pretending to values they deride in private or at Bahai-only meetings. > > I find it distressing that this forum is being used for such purposes with > an uninformed audience. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > www.fglaysher.com > The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience > https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > > > >From: brad@oc.mv.com > >To: MFNews@egroups.com > >Subject: [MFNews] Statement of the Millennium Forum to the Millennium > >Summit > >Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 12:55:09 -0000 > > > >> >It has been requested that we post the full statement of Millennium > >Forum Co-Chair Techeste Ahderom to this group. It follows: > > > >THE MILLENNIUM SUMMIT > > > >8 September 2000 > > > > > >Afternoon Plenary -- Friday, 8 September 2000 > > > >Statement of Techeste Ahderom > >Co-Chair, The Millennium Forum > > > > > > > >Madam and Mr. Co-Chairs, Distinguished Heads of State and Government, > >Mr. Secretary-General, Excellencies, > > > > > >Last May, representatives of civil society and non-governmental > >organizations from all over the world gathered in this great hall to > >consult about humanity's common future and, particularly, about > >the > >role of the United Nations in the 21st Century. > > > >The meeting was called the Millennium Forum, and, in light of the > >wide ranging concerns of its participants, the geographic reach they > >embodied -- including broad representation from developing countries - > >- and the depth and breath of the organizations they represented, it > >was one of the most diverse -- and significant -- gatherings of civil > >society organizations ever held. > > > >The Forum was significant for its attempt to accelerate the process > >among NGOs of networking and coalition building across issue areas > >that has proved to be such a powerful force for change and social > >action in today's world. The issues we considered included how to > >establish a just and lasting peace; how to eradicate poverty; how to > >set humanity on a path of sustainable development while protecting > >our shared environment; how to see that human rights everywhere are > >upheld -- at all times, by all nations; and how to face up to the > >urgent challenges of globalization. > > > >In the end, despite our great diversity, we successfully agreed on a > >powerfully worded "Declaration and Agenda for Action." It offers > >a > >bold vision for humanity's future and outlines a series of concrete> >steps that the United Nations, governments, and members of civil > >society themselves can take to address the global problems facing > >humanity today. > > > >After hearing your speeches here over the last three days, I must say > >that our vision and plan of action are consonant with much of what > >has been said here. > > > >I am personally heartened by this and feel that this historic Summit > >may well be remembered as having opened the door to a long-awaited > >era of peace, justice and prosperity for all humanity. This new era > >will, of course, require concrete deeds and not just words. > > > >We in civil society stand ready to work with you and your > >governments, side by side, in a strong new partnership to create this > >new world. At the same time, civil society also stands ready to hold > >you to your commitments if you do not deliver on your words. > > > >Throughout history, from the abolition of slavery to the recognition > >of the equality of women and men, most great social movements have > >begun not with governments but with ordinary people. > > > >Even the idea of creating an international organization to end war > >and establish a permanent peace originated with civil society. Before > >the outbreak of the First World War, the leaders of a number of > >international NGOs argued for the establishment of a "Commonwealth of > >Nations" or "League of Nations" in which all states would band > >together in collective security. These same organizations actively > >supported the work of the League of Nations in the late 1920's. > > > >In 1945, civil society again played an important role in shaping many > >of the key articles found in the Charter of the United Nations, > >especially in the area of human rights. > > > >More recently, NGOs have played a leading role in shaping and > >supporting an International Criminal Court, in the movement for debt > >cancellation, and in the International Campaign to Ban Landmines. > >Likewise, NGOs have led in creating such partnerships with the UN and > >governments as with the NGO Steering Committee for the Commission on > >Sustainable Development. > > > >On a number of occasions, Secretary General Kofi Annan has said that > >civil society participation in and partnership with the United > >Nations is not an "option," but a "necessity." > > > >We appreciate his efforts to facilitate effective partnership with> >civil society at the United Nations. We thank him especially for > >opening the UN to the Millennium Forum last May. As many of you know, > >the idea for our Forum essentially originated with Mr. Annan some > >three years ago when he called for a "companion People's Assembly" to > >this Summit. And we thank Mr. Annan for making the Millennium Forum > >Declaration available to this Summit as a UN document. > > > >The Millennium Forum itself grew out of long-established NGO > >committees and networks. Planning began with the Conference on Non- > >Governmental Organizations (CONGO), and included the UN DPI/NGO > >Executive Committee. We sought to build upon an impressive series of > >global NGO gatherings held last year, such as the Hague Appeal for > >Peace, the Seoul International Conference of NGOs, World Civil > >Society Conference, and the Young People's Millennium Assembly, > >as > >well as all of the great global NGO forums held in parallel with the > >major United Nations conferences of the last decade, including Earth > >Summit, the Beijing Women's Conference, and the Social Summit, among > >others. > > > >We ask that you review carefully our Millennium Forum Declaration. I > >think you'll find that, for the most part, we are simply calling on > >governments to live up to the commitments and the principles that > >they agreed to in the great global conferences of the 1990s. We are > >also seeking increased NGO access to the UN General Assembly and its > >main committees. > > > >Allow me to give you a few highlights of what the Forum called for in > >its Declaration. > > > >The Forum's participants believe that, when a billion people go > >to > >bed hungry, it is a gross violation of human rights. The Declaration > >calls for immediate debt cancellation. It also calls for a > >"Global > >Poverty Eradication Fund," aimed at offering the poor access to > >credit. > > > >On globalization, the Forum took the view that, while it > >offers "significant opportunities for people to connect, share > >and > >learn from each other," in its currently unregulated form it > >increases "inequities between and within countries, undermines > >local > >traditions and cultures, and escalates disparities between rich and > >poor, thereby marginalizing large numbers of people in urban and> >rural areas." > > > >The Declaration urges governments to make serious "commitments to > >restructure the global financial architecture based on principles of > >equity, transparency, accountability, and democracy.," > >stating > >clearly that the United Nations should be the preeminent > >international organization overseeing the World Bank, the IMF and the > >WTO. > > > >The Declaration also calls for a greatly strengthened and > >democratized United Nations, the most important global institution in > >the world today -- and the only one currently capable of providing > >the international framework and coordination needed to address the > >critical challenges ahead. > > > >Specifically, the Forum called for a strengthened peacekeeping > >regime, with the establishment of permanent police and peacekeeping > >forces. It also calls for a reformed Security Council, invigorated > >through an enlarged membership, more democratic procedures, and > >eventual elimination of the veto. It also urges the formulation of a > >draft proposal for global disarmament, to be discussed in a Special > >Session of the General Assembly. > > > >In this day of global interdependence, a much strengthened United > >Nations is our best protection against global calamity, be it > >economic, environmental, the spread of a new epidemic or a major new > >conflict. > > > >To conclude, the Millennium Forum Declaration seeks to articulate the > >hopes and aspirations of the peoples of the world. As its opening > >paragraphs state: > > > >"Our vision is of a world that is human-centered and genuinely > >democratic, where all human beings are full participants and > >determine their own destinies. In our vision we are one human family, > >in all our diversity, living on one common homeland and sharing a > >just, sustainable and peaceful world, guided by universal principles > >of democracy, equality, inclusion, voluntarism, non-discrimination > >and participation by all persons.." > > > >Thank you for your attention. > > > ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 5:55 AM Subject: [ bahai ] Lying to the United Nations.... No 2 All the more true now after the performance of Techeste Ahderom at the Millennium Forum and Summit in May and September 2000: The uhj in "The Turning Point for All Nations," a 1997 policy piece aimed at the United Nations, presented to many prominent people in several different governments, hypocritically writes, "The minimum standards for conduct by a government towards its people have been well established in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and subsequent international covenants, collectively referred to as the International Bill of Human Rights." "Without an unshakable commitment to regular and periodic elections with universal participation by secret ballot, to ***freedom of expression*** and to other such ***human rights***, a member state stands in the way of the active and intelligent participation of the vast majority of its population in the affairs of its own communities." "We propose that there should be ***consequences*** for member states that violate these standards. Similarly, nations seeking recognition should be denied membership until they openly espouse these standards or make recognizable efforts to move in that direction." Yet the truth is that uhj has hypocritically violated the human rights of many, many Bahais, often intellectuals who have candidly expressed their views, often in the context of their studies and research, driving them out of the Bahai faith or ostracizing them, including academics in major American universities. It has done so without any ***consequences*** whatsoever, with impunity. The UN and other official government bodies should at least hold it accountable, instead of always being deceived by Bahai public relations people every time there is a crisis in Iran. The uhj continues its hypocrisy by saying "Far from encouraging the punitive spirit that has often masqueraded under its name in past ages, justice is the practical expression of awareness that, in the achievement of human progress, the interests of the individual and those of society are inextricably linked. To the extent that justice becomes a guiding concern of human interaction, a ***consultative climate*** is encouraged that permits options to be examined dispassionately and appropriate courses of action selected. In such a climate the perennial tendencies toward manipulation and partisanship are farless likely to deflect the decision-making process." It is the uhj itself that has poisoned the climate of the Bahai faiththrough suppression and tyranny and a pervasive ***punitive spirit*** that canonly tolerate its own fundamentalist voice. Many such passages of hypocrisy exist in the documents the uhj generates for release to the UN and various governments and public officials. Full text of "The Turning Point for All Nations" may be found at https://home.vicnet.net.au/~bahai/turning.html Professor Juan Cole, of the University of Michigan, discusses other related human rights issues in his journal article "The Baha'i Faith in America as Panopticon, 1963-1997": https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/jssr/bhjssr.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 5:55 AM Subject: [ bahai ] Why I Crosspost My crossposts to soc.culture.israel, soc.culture.iranian, and talk.religion.misc are entirely within the acceptable parameters for crossposting to newsgroups related to the subject at hand: the bahai faith *began* in Iran, the major bahai religious sites and institutions are *located* in *Israel*, and *all* religions may join discussion on talk.religion.misc. It should be evident to any intelligent person that bahai fundamentalists have a hidden agenda and their self-interest in mind when they malign me and many, many other people on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, and elsewhere. Since fundamentalists among my fellow bahais have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes that possible, as dramatically demonstrated with the former USSR and China, the universal house of "justice," like other totalitarian regimes, will have to confront and answer for the consequences of their own hypocrisy. Their slandering me for "spamming" also won't prevent perceptive people from realizing what's really going on.... Those interested in judging independently for themselves my background and whether I'm "unbalanced," as bahai fundamentalist struggle to portray me, may do so by reading my Biographical Note: https://fglaysher.com/bio.htm I believe it is my duty, bahai and otherwise, to inform my fellow citizens, local and global, of the appalling and incessant hypocrisy that lies behind the deceptive, progressive facade that the uhj so often fobs off on the unsuspecting public.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Jeanne Hales[SMTP:jhales@mail1.asf.alaska.edu] Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 1:54 PM To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Re: Like your page Well, what was he saying, that he needed to be silenced? >Jeanne, > >Daniel and Dan are the same person. > >I've publicly stated a number of times that I have no evidence >or knowledge regarding the murder of Dr. Daniel Jordan. >However, given the pervasive atmosphere of coercion and >suppression within the Bahai Faith, I do believe it is entirely >possible that there was either official or unofficial involvement >in his murder, to one degree or another, in order to silence him. >I continue to believe so. > >Frederick Glaysher >www.fglaysher.com >The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience >https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jeanne Hales" >To: >Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 8:25 PM >Subject: Like your page > > >> Fred, >> >> I've read most of the documents on your page, and I have one >> question: there is a reference to a Dr. Daniel Jordan, then another >> reference to Dan Jordan. Is this a case of a son moving up to fill a >> NSA seat? >> >> My other question is that you seemed to suggest that the Bahai's had >> something to do with Dr. Jordan's death. Is this purely speculation, >> or can you recount anything that might lead you to think so? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jean >> ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 7:52 AM Subject: Rollcall of bahai Victims.... Their many victims include Indiana University Professors Linda and John Walbridge, editor Stephen Scholl, other editors of Dialogue magazine, the Bahai Encyclopedia editors who resigned in protest, David Langness, Professor Juan Cole of the History Department of the University of Michigan, writer Michael McKenny, Nima Hazini, former Assistant to the Auxiliary Board Paul Dodenhoff, Alison Marshall for writing a critique of bahai publishing and censorship, and most recently Australian Olympic champion Cathy Freeman.... David Horowitz's observations in his book Radical Son apply equally well to bahai fundamentalism: "I, too, had to face the savage personal attacks by my former comrades that were designed to warn others to remain within the fold" (2). I urge the perceptive reader seeking to understand the bahai faith to consider the experience and views of the bahais and ex-bahais mentioned above. Many of their testimonies may be found on my bahai webpage below. Since bahai fundamentalists have always relied on their ability to operate one way in one country and another elsewhere and the Internet now no longer makes it possible, they have mounted a concerted campaign on Usenet to discredit and malign diverse voices. Their slandering me for "spamming" won't prevent perceptive people who even glance at the record from realizing what's really going on in their desperate attempt to prevent people in Israel, Iran, and elsewhere from knowing what is actually taking place in bahai cirlces around the world. -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 7:56 AM Subject: bahai Enrollment & Fund DOWN, DOWN, DOWN, DOWN,DOWN.... Perhaps some of the fundamentalists would like to explain why.... It would appear that fundamentalists among my fellow bahais are not above even attempting to purge the Internet of diverse opinions in their effort to present a sanitized version to the unsuspecting general public.... Well might the nine fundamentalists of Haifa ponder the futility of the exertions of the former USSR, and lately of China, to muzzle the free will and conscience of humanity. May they come to understand that they themselves are responsible for keeping out the masses and hamstringing His Revelation.... > Both facts tell the story but the fundamentalists who control > and distort the Teachings of Baha'u'llah continue to cover > their ears and close their minds to the overwhelming message, > blaming the victims, the many, many victims of injustice and > fanaticism.... > > These Two Major Facts may also suggest why the fanatics > among my fellow bahais are so desperate to discredit > me and prevent others from reading the simple, sad, often > tragic accounts by many ex-bahais on my website.... > > It is easier to blame me and my website for the Two Major Facts > than for the nine members of the uhj to accept responsibility for their > tyranny and straying from the Teachings of Baha'u'llah.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://www.angelfire.com/mi3/bahai/ ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 7:57 AM Subject: uhj's Backbiting of U of M Professor Juan Cole 3 August 1999 From: Department of the Secretariat Baha'i World Center Dear Baha'i Friend, Clearly, no one would dispute the right of Dr. Cole to write and publish whatever work a publisher is prepared to handle. Nor has anyone questioned the right of a Baha'i who is interested in such a book to purchase it. To suggest that the House of Justice is saying otherwise would be to seriously misconstrue the nature of its concern . . . As a participant in various Internet discussion groups over the past five years, and particularly in the last year or two, you cannot but be aware from these exchanges that Dr. Cole has embarked on a deliberate assault against the Baha'i Cause, in which he has not hesitated to attack its institutions, to misrepresent its fundamental teachings, and to abuse the trust of Baha'is who had been led to believe that they were engaged with him in a detached and scholarly search for the truth. These same Internet exchanges exposed you, like other participants, to a flood of calumny and invective against a great many of your fellow believers, on the part of Dr. Cole, that is scarcely credible in rational discourse. Had such a book as Modernity and the Millennium been written by a disinterested non-Baha'i scholar, its misconception of the nature of Baha'u'llah's Mission and its other shortcomings would have represented no more than understandable weaknesses of an honest attempt to explore a religious phenomenon as yet little understood in the West. Indeed, in this context, such an attempt to make the Baha'i Faith comprehensible to the Western academic mind, however inadequate it might appear to knowledgeable Baha'i scholars, would surely have earned its author a measure of genuine Baha'i appreciation for the writing and research skills deployed in devising it. As you -- like other participants in certain Internet discussion groups -- are well aware, however, the book's author is not a disinterested scholar. Rather, he is a deeply embittered individual who, as his book was in preparation, had just denounced in the most intemperate language an apparent twenty-year allegiance to Baha'u'llah, in the wake of a failed attempt on his part to impose his private ideological agenda on the Baha'i community's study of Baha'u'llah's Message. Modernity and the Millennium represents an effort to provide the current stage of this long-running scheme with the underpinnings of scholarly rationalization. What is this rationalization? Although distorted by its evasion of Baha'i Texts that contradict its main assertions, and blurred by reliance on speculations peculiar to its author's purpose, the thesis appears to run somewhat as follows: Baha'u'llah's work and Writings represent essentially one of several efforts by Middle East thinkers to work out a "response" to the challenges posed by European modernity in the form of rationalism, revolution, nationalism, economic upheaval, feminism and other contemporary developments. Although Oriental in origin, this particular "response", in contrast to various others, was unusually "progressive", "liberal", "idealistic", even "radical". Because it "grew up" in a congenial modernist era, its Author was able gradually to adjust and revise the ideas with which He had been "grappling", through benefiting (in a manner generally insinuated rather than explicitly stated) from successive interactions with other thinkers and movements. By 1862, apparently in order to deal with the problem of religious exclusivity in the Muslim world, and in response to some form of "private mystical experience", He "decided to make a prophetic claim of his own" . . . The Covenant, the distinguishing feature of Baha'u'llah's Revelation, has been made the central target of this effort (a maneuver that Dr. Cole's book is at particular pains to shore up). Although forced to acknowledge the appointments of `Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian as Interpreters of Baha'u'llah's Message, every effort has been made to call such authoritative interpretation into question wherever it presents a problem for the notions being promoted. Similarly, although ostensibly acknowledging that the Universal House of Justice is Head of the Baha'i Faith today, this opposition has tried by every means possible to undermine the broad authority conferred in Baha'u'llah's own words and emphasized in the Master's Will and Testament. (In Dr. Cole's book, this agenda makes its appearance in the conclusion: namely, that the Faith founded by Baha'u'llah has failed in its mission because, like "the Khomeinist state in Iran", it has been somehow captured by "fundamentalists", by which term Dr. Cole has repeatedly characterized the members of the Universal House of Justice.) . . . With loving Baha'i greetings, Department of the Secretariat ----- For his comments and response, see https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 7:58 AM Subject: Why I don't Respond to Fundamentalists and Fanatics After over four years of observing the tactics of bahai fundamentalists, I've learnt a few things about the way they operate: 1. Always smear and attack the individual. 2. Lure into supposed discussion then cut the jugular. 3. Work together to create the perception for non-bahais that the individual is unbalanced, aberrant, etc.... 4. Change or ignore the subject. Attempting to disucss anything with them is simple a waste of time and energy, as long as the uhj uses "review" to suppress all free thought and discussion and encourages such unseemly tactics. I have many interests in life. Documenting bahai fundamentalism is only one of them. Bahai fundamentalists are only interested in smearing others, pretending they want to talk. An old bahai fundamentalist Technique, well documented in "The Bahai Technique": https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/technique.htm Others may disagree with me, which is fine. All I can say is that there are many hidden agendas among my fellow bahais. Nobody has to read my reposts who has done so already. My Message Rules are full of fundamentalists. Others may use the same technology to filter out my reposts.They're intended for the uninformed.... And they will be staying on the newsgroups I choose as long as bahai censorship and deceit continue. It should be evident that fundamentalists desire to suppress all knowledge of their suppression and coercion of bahais and non-bahais over the last decade or more now. I fear most non-bahais will be unable to penetrate the veil of lies and dishonesty of my fellow bahais. Perhaps eventually someone will. I hope so. It is my deepest desire to bear witness to the distortion of Baha'u'llah's Teachings by the universal house of "justice" and their appointed, delegated lackies on talk.religion.bahai.... I am only interested in preserving the record of what bahai fundamentalists have done. Others may read it and decide for themselves. I'm not interested in talking TO or WITH bahai fundamentalists. I've done that in the past four years. Anyone interested in my views may read them in my archives or glean them from my reposts, which, in my view, preserve the historical record of how low bahai fanatics have been willing to go.... Others may read or ignore them. The fanatics among my fellow bahais will stop at nothing to deceive outside observers, the general public, prominent people, etc. I can only hope by serving humbly, as the self-appointed archivist/historian for talk.religion.bahai and for all the many victims of the "universal" house of "justice," that someday someone will come along who will dig deep enough into the record that the truth will begin to surface. It is my hope that then the distortions of the uhj will begin to purged, it will gradually reform itself, acknowledging the broad and liberal Teachings of Baha'u'llah that it has suppressed now for so long..... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 7:59 AM Subject: A Bahai in Perfectly Good Standing.... Despite the slander of many fundamentalists among my fellow bahais, I have been a member of the bahai faith since 1976. My ID Card may be found on my main bahai page. I have never been contacted by the uhj or any of its underlings to the contrary. The reason the uhj allows and encourages fundamentalists among my fellow bahais to backbite and slander me on talk.religion.bahai, alt.religion.bahai, AOL, and elsewhere may be discovered in the three messages below: To the Universal House of Justice - March 31, 1997 https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/To-UHJ1.htm To the Universal House of Justice - July 24, 1998 https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/UHJ72498.htm To uhj 12-10-1999 https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/uhj12-10-99.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 8:00 AM Subject: Credo - Credo - Credo - Credo.... Baha'u'llah is the Prophet of God for mankind in this day and age. He Himself laid the foundation for the Universal House of Justice, hampered, thank God, though it be, by the loss of the Guardian. I trust that, in the long run of history, He will not leave his institution to itself but will lead it back, through perhaps the compelling Vision of his Writings and the devoted consciences of his followers, to its humble, modest, and balanced role as his legislative body. I have never repudiated my belief in Baha'u'llah nor the legitimacy of his institutions. That some benighted individual bahais have temporarily distorted the bahai faith into a hideous form of fanaticism and fundamentalism does not negate the Truth of his Revelation and its saving grace for this nihilistic desert. https://fglaysher.com/LettersAmD1989-1994.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 8:01 AM Subject: Fundamentalist Slandering of US & UK Academics The flooding of talk.religion.bahai in August 2000 by Susan Maneck and other fundamentalists should be properly viewed as not only a subterfuge to conceal the hypocritical involvement of many of my fellow bahais at the United Nations but also as an attempt to slander Professor Cole and to dissuade people from considering his critique of the Haifa uhj in both his book Modernity & the Millennium and his many statements on his website and elsewhere. As a sample of the extreme views opposing free speech and academic freedom held by the uhj and its fundamentalists on talk.religion.bahai and elsewhere, see below the text of the uhj's letter circulated behind Cole's back, slandering him within the bahai community. There have now been many American bahai academics who have received this type of treatment and been driven out of the bahai faith in one way or another, a fact they seek to conceal from the United Nations and US government officials. For his comments and response, see https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/1999/modernit.htm -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm ---- 3 August 1999 From: Department of the Secretariat Baha'i World Center Dear Baha'i Friend, Clearly, no one would dispute the right of Dr. Cole to write and publish whatever work a publisher is prepared to handle. Nor has anyone questioned the right of a Baha'i who is interested in such a book to purchase it. To suggest that the House of Justice is saying otherwise would be to seriously misconstrue the nature of its concern . . . As a participant in various Internet discussion groups over the past five years, and particularly in the last year or two, you cannot but be aware from these exchanges that Dr. Cole has embarked on a deliberate assault against the Baha'i Cause, in which he has not hesitated to attack its institutions, to misrepresent its fundamental teachings, and to abuse the trust of Baha'is who had been led to believe that they were engaged with him in a detached and scholarly search for the truth. These same Internet exchanges exposed you, like other participants, to a flood of calumny and invective against a great many of your fellow believers, on the part of Dr. Cole, that is scarcely credible in rational discourse. Had such a book as Modernity and the Millennium been written by a disinterested non-Baha'i scholar, its misconception of the nature of Baha'u'llah's Mission and its other shortcomings would have represented no more than understandable weaknesses of an honest attempt to explore a religious phenomenon as yet little understood in the West. Indeed, in this context, such an attempt to make the Baha'i Faith comprehensible to the Western academic mind, however inadequate it might appear to knowledgeable Baha'i scholars, would surely have earned its author a measure of genuine Baha'i appreciation for the writing and research skills deployed in devising it. As you -- like other participants in certain Internet discussion groups -- are well aware, however, the book's author is not a disinterested scholar. Rather, he is a deeply embittered individual who, as his book was in preparation, had just denounced in the most intemperate language an apparent twenty-year allegiance to Baha'u'llah, in the wake of a failed attempt on his part to impose his private ideological agenda on the Baha'i community's study of Baha'u'llah's Message. Modernity and the Millennium represents an effort to provide the current stage of this long-running scheme with the underpinnings of scholarly rationalization. What is this rationalization? Although distorted by its evasion of Baha'i Texts that contradict its main assertions, and blurred by reliance on speculations peculiar to its author's purpose, the thesis appears to run somewhat as follows: Baha'u'llah's work and Writings represent essentially one of several efforts by Middle East thinkers to work out a "response" to the challenges posed by European modernity in the form of rationalism, revolution, nationalism, economic upheaval, feminism and other contemporary developments. Although Oriental in origin, this particular "response", in contrast to various others, was unusually "progressive", "liberal", "idealistic", even "radical". Because it "grew up" in a congenial modernist era, its Author was able gradually to adjust and revise the ideas with which He had been "grappling", through benefiting (in a manner generally insinuated rather than explicitly stated) from successive interactions with other thinkers and movements. By 1862, apparently in order to deal with the problem of religious exclusivity in the Muslim world, and in response to some form of "private mystical experience", He "decided to make a prophetic claim of his own" . . . The Covenant, the distinguishing feature of Baha'u'llah's Revelation, has been made the central target of this effort (a maneuver that Dr. Cole's book is at particular pains to shore up). Although forced to acknowledge the appointments of `Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian as Interpreters of Baha'u'llah's Message, every effort has been made to call such authoritative interpretation into question wherever it presents a problem for the notions being promoted. Similarly, although ostensibly acknowledging that the Universal House of Justice is Head of the Baha'i Faith today, this opposition has tried by every means possible to undermine the broad authority conferred in Baha'u'llah's own words and emphasized in the Master's Will and Testament. (In Dr. Cole's book, this agenda makes its appearance in the conclusion: namely, that the Faith founded by Baha'u'llah has failed in its mission because, like "the Khomeinist state in Iran", it has been somehow captured by "fundamentalists", by which term Dr. Cole has repeatedly characterized the members of the Universal House of Justice.) . . . With loving Baha'i greetings, Department of the Secretariat ---------- From: Patrick Henry[SMTP:patrick_Henry@bigfoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 8:03 AM Subject: DRAMATICALLY Improve your bahai newsgroup experience.... Assuming you use IE5, click on Tools, then Message Rules, followed by News. Add for talk.religion.bahai and for alt.religion.bahai the email addresses or names of the bahai fundamentalists and fanatics of your choice: smaneck@aol.com dfiorito@my-deja.com rlittle95@my-deja.com kohliCUT@ameritel.net postmaster@ishop-usa.com brieze_way@nospam.hotmail.com patk9018@my-deja.com RSSchaut@email.msn.NOSPAMcom saman@ticnet.com mee@tsn.cc roger@rreini.com dr.walker@fsandp.remove.com Click on Apply Now. Further word of advice based on over three and a half years online: Also add them to Blocked Senders List. One of the best things about IE5 is that it is so easy to add fundamentalists as they show up or adopt false identities.... -- Frederick Glaysher www.fglaysher.com The Bahai Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience https://members.nbci.com/fglaysher/index.htm