From - Thu Apr 10 08:21:19 1997 >From hmahmoudi@olivetnet.edu Thu Mar 27 12:43:49 1997 Received: from oc119.olivetnet.edu by netra (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA24242; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:45:46 -0500 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 15:45:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199703272045.PAA24242@netra> X-Sender: mahmoudi@netra.olivetnet.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: FG@hotmail.com From: Hoda Mahmoudi X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 583 Dear Mr. Glaysher: I have been reading your e-mail postings recently. I would like to speak with you by phone about some of your throughts and opinions regarding matters relevant to the Baha'i Faith. As an Auxiliary Board members for Michigan, I am always interested in issues which relate to individual spiritual responsibility and the Baha'i Faith's principle of unity. My phone number is 616/789-0590. Hope to hear from you soon. Hoda Hoda Mahmoudi, Ph.D. Associate Vice President for Academic Affairs Olivet College Olivet, MI 49076 616/749-7614 From - Tue Feb 04 09:02:21 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.45) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 07:33:58 -0500 Message-ID: <32F72E70.6573@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 07:41:20 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: Re: (Fwd) Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion References: <199701311619.LAA18997@gimantis.rs.itd.umich.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 6483 Juan R. I. Cole wrote: > > Bill Collins wrote: [clip] > Now, if you heard that the Dalai Lama had threatened to excommunicate the > editors of *Tricycle* for daring have a magazine not under his direct > control, which even suggested things might be better run in Buddhism, then > you would conclude that the Dalai Lama was acting in an authoritarian manner > and was a control freak. As to the Baha'i authorities, everyone can decide > for themselves. Please note that Dialogue magazine does not exist, since > the editors were heartbroken at their public denunciation and closed it, and > that nothing else like it exists, and that the major Baha'i periodical in > the U.S. is still The American Baha'i. > And an unreadable propaganda rag at that.... > When a prominent Baha'i academic started the talisman@indiana.edu > listserv discussion group, the Baha'i authorities again intervened. > This time the charge was not merely "negative campaigning," but > "making statements contrary to the covenant." I am unaware that > either "negative campaigning" or "making statements contrary to the > covenant" are crimes that could be found specified in Baha'i > scripture, but when needed such charges seem to be at hand and are > used to intimidate, silence or chase away any Baha'i who dares set up > a medium of communication not under the close supervision of the > Baha'i authorities. > The CFV (Call For Votes) should be out soon for talk.religion.bahai.... > As a result of these false and outrageous charges, > talisman@indiana.edu no longer exists, just as *Dialogue* no longer > exists. Indeed, several of those associated with Dialogue, who had > devoted thousands of dollars and man-hours to this enterprise for the > sake of the Baha'i faith, have now either been chased out of the > religion or silenced, as a reward for their efforts. > > Please name me another religion that has threatened its own > academics with the most extreme sanctions merely for posting e-mail > messages. Scientology? As to the ridiculous charge of libel, *none* of these > messages so much as mentioned the *name* of any Baha'i official in a > negative light. Some Talisman logs are up at > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/talisman.htm ; see for > yourself. None of the messages challenged the legitimate authority > of the Baha'i institutions in any way. Name me another religion in > which the highest authorities have consistently acted to blunt the > independent intellectual life of the community, Jim Jones' Kool-Aid Cult, Aum Sinryuku, Bagwansaresh, etc.... such that merely by > virtue of their being elected to high religious office, officials > suddenly claim the right to tell academics how to write history, > sociology, and religious studies. >Consultation is a hallmark of the > Faith, and >many of us who are authors and committed Baha'is have no > difficulty with >following a procedure which has never, in our > experience, resulted in >any actual "censorship" of our work - even > where we questioned a >commonly-held view among the faithful. > > Works by Baha'is' have been censored and things taken out. Marzieh Gail's > translation of the memoirs of Muhammad-`Ali Salmani was censored by the > Research Department at the Baha'i World Center, and a number of passages > were ordered suppressed. (This is rather like the Vatican ordering passages > taken out of the Gospel of Mark.) And, of course, no one has seen in print > the article slated for publication in *Dialogue* entitled a "Modest > Proposal." And a paper on the possibility of women's service on the > Universal House of Justice was banned from circulation or publication. The > purpose of "literature review" is selective. It is not to censor > everything, but only things seen as important by the authorities. > Examples of censored postings may be found at news.groups.... > >The indiscrimate painting of honest, upright and thoughtful people with > >the fundamentalist label is a hideous parody of the real problems > >involved in the betrayal of religious principles. It is also absolutely > >guaranteed to offend those against whom it is directed. > > Let's just review the evidence. I was criticized by the counsellor who > questioned me on behalf of the highest Baha'i authorities for speaking > about Baha'u'llah as though he were a historical figure. I was criticized > for insisting that Baha'i texts had to be contextualized in their time and > place in order to be properly understood. I was criticized for suggesting > that where science and religion conflict, science should take precedence. > All of these critiques of my position, which were part of the prologue to my > having been declared by the counsellors to have "made statements contrary to > the covenant" have an underlying fundamentalist logic. > > What really hurts me, and I suppose my anger is still visible, is that the > core principles of the Baha'i holy figures are so beautiful, that there are > so many good, kind-hearted, and upright Baha'is out there working against > prejudice and for the unity of humankind, that such bright possibilities > existed for the religion. But it has been derailed by a handful of > authoritarians who happen to have gotten into high office, and who > consistently and accross the board set policies that punish individual > initiative. Thus, Baha'is have no large-circulation magazine in the U.S. > comparable to *Tricycle* for Buddhism, which is what *Dialogue* could have > become. They have very little intellectual life or culture. There is > nothing attractive for most of the Baby Boomers who joined in the 60s and > 70s, and most of them have therefore gone right back out. You can have > tight control, or you can have growth and efflorescence. You can't have > both. The Baha'i authorities in the U.S. have opted for tight control, and > are now tightening it further with this silly doctrine that covenant > breaking is not just a matter of schism, but refers to disagreeing publicly > with the religion's officials. > > I'm sorry to see it happen, and even more sorry to see old friends of whom I > had thought so well support it. > > Sincerely, > > Juan R. I. Cole > Professor > Department of History > University of Michigan Oh human folly! -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 04 09:02:25 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.45) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:06:56 -0500 Message-ID: <32F7362B.696F@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:14:19 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups CC: sen.mcglinn@bahai.nl Subject: Re: (Fwd) Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion References: <"Umc7c.A.A8E.dxr9y"@bounty> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 5163 Sen McGlinn wrote: > [clip] > > I won't cite it all or deal with it point-by-point, but some things > were striking. Steve justifies review as saving the resources of the > Faith - but it is applied to *stop* those publishers who are willing > to put up their own money from publishing some things. He says that > it stops things being called 'Baha'i literature', but the opposite > is the case: things which have passed review - however appaling in > quality - are known as Baha'i literature, others are by definition > not. Steve points to the free speech which members of LSA and NSAs > have within those bodies in dealing with administrative matters, as > if this could be a substitute for free speech for academics or > freedom for Baha'i publishers to publish the scriptures, > translations and basic historical documents of the Faith. He points > to the fact that the Baha'i administrative members are elected for > short terms (1 year), but this is hardly relevant in the US, which > Juan was speaking of, since the eligible members of the National > Spiritual Assembly of the US (i.e., those not retiring for some > reason) have been reelected with 100% success rate for donkey's > years. As have the members of the Universal House of Justice. Thus > while the Baha'i Administration is formally elective, it actually has > a character resembling a village-elder system (once you are on, > there's very little chance you will ever get off). Maybe that's the > way it is intended to be - I suspect so. But whether you think it > should be that way or that this is a sign of some sort of > malfunction, it clearly is not a system in which the possibility of > not being re-elected can (or should?) have any effect on 'the > motivations of elected officials". Steve suggests that the effort put > into "dialogue" magazine could have been better spent on fulfilling > the goals of the Plan, and asks what anyone could do with a journal > that could not "have been done through already existing publications > and through the elected Institutions." But one of the goals of the > Plan at that time was something like a 'massive expansion of Baha'i > literature', and the Universal House of Justice was actively > supporting the establishment of independent Baha'i publishers and had > specifically included dialogue in this. Most of these, and > subsequent, efforts have failed, simply because the review policy > sets up a situation in which sooner or later the publisher and the > National Assembly will come into bitter conflict, and there can ony > be one loser then. Large -scale expansion of the Faith can hardly be > achieved without the development of its intellectual life, for which > scholarship and the organs to publish it and forums for well-ground > discussion of issues are essential. It is not a viable option to put > off the development of the life of the mind because we are too busy > teaching. For the teaching to be effective it has to be informed, for > the community to be attractive it has to have a vigorous intellectual > life. Dialogue was doing exactly what it ought to have been doing at > that time (no email, remember - a journal was the only way to deliver > the vitamins the body needed) and it was doing it how it was supposed > to - i.e., it submitted all its articles to the National Assembly for > checking (and had a fair few rejected, as I did in my project). Its > failure, and many many failures, are not due in my view to Juan's > "handful of authoritarians" (tch tch, conspiracy theories Juan??) but > rather to bad policy. Which is still in place, but fortunately less > burdensome in the days of email. > > Well, I'm only halfway down your post, but I will leave the rest. I > have the distinct impression that Baha'is as a whole are unaware of > how the censorship review system works, and how publishing in the > Baha'i framework works. For examples of censored email messages see my postings to news.groups. Not a few have expressed surprise to me that > there *was* such a system, while others - as we saw on srb a while > ago - would like to see a system in which the National Assemblies > first decide what the "Baha'i view" is and then get someone to write > it. In between these it's hard to have a well-informed discussion. > It really only affects writers and publishers in an immediate and > financial way, so it is hard to explain the concerns to others. > > sigh > > Sen > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sen McGlinn Sen.McGlinn@Bahai.NL > *** > Let the friends recall and ever bear in mind > the repeated exhortations and glowing promises of our beloved Master > with reference to the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar, > the crowning institution in every Baha'i community. > > (Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, page 108) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 04 17:00:14 1997 Received: from cliff.cybertrails.com (205.180.32.134) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 16:36:49 -0500 Message-ID: Received: from smsmith ([205.180.50.69]) by cliff.cybertrails.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAC159; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:42:30 -0700 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: smsmith@mail.cybertrails.com To: @moa.net Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:47:02 +0000 Subject: Re: (Fwd) Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion CC: srb-mods@bcca.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 5603 Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. I am returning it to you and requesting that you substantially cut down on the included text. Thank you. S. Michele Smith co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai [resond to: srb-mods@bcca.org] > Sen McGlinn wrote: > > > [clip] > > > > I won't cite it all or deal with it point-by-point, but some things > > were striking. Steve justifies review as saving the resources of the > > Faith - but it is applied to *stop* those publishers who are willing > > to put up their own money from publishing some things. He says that > > it stops things being called 'Baha'i literature', but the opposite > > is the case: things which have passed review - however appaling in > > quality - are known as Baha'i literature, others are by definition > > not. Steve points to the free speech which members of LSA and NSAs > > have within those bodies in dealing with administrative matters, as > > if this could be a substitute for free speech for academics or > > freedom for Baha'i publishers to publish the scriptures, > > translations and basic historical documents of the Faith. He points > > to the fact that the Baha'i administrative members are elected for > > short terms (1 year), but this is hardly relevant in the US, which > > Juan was speaking of, since the eligible members of the National > > Spiritual Assembly of the US (i.e., those not retiring for some > > reason) have been reelected with 100% success rate for donkey's > > years. As have the members of the Universal House of Justice. Thus > > while the Baha'i Administration is formally elective, it actually has > > a character resembling a village-elder system (once you are on, > > there's very little chance you will ever get off). Maybe that's the > > way it is intended to be - I suspect so. But whether you think it > > should be that way or that this is a sign of some sort of > > malfunction, it clearly is not a system in which the possibility of > > not being re-elected can (or should?) have any effect on 'the > > motivations of elected officials". Steve suggests that the effort put > > into "dialogue" magazine could have been better spent on fulfilling > > the goals of the Plan, and asks what anyone could do with a journal > > that could not "have been done through already existing publications > > and through the elected Institutions." But one of the goals of the > > Plan at that time was something like a 'massive expansion of Baha'i > > literature', and the Universal House of Justice was actively > > supporting the establishment of independent Baha'i publishers and had > > specifically included dialogue in this. Most of these, and > > subsequent, efforts have failed, simply because the review policy > > sets up a situation in which sooner or later the publisher and the > > National Assembly will come into bitter conflict, and there can ony > > be one loser then. Large -scale expansion of the Faith can hardly be > > achieved without the development of its intellectual life, for which > > scholarship and the organs to publish it and forums for well-ground > > discussion of issues are essential. It is not a viable option to put > > off the development of the life of the mind because we are too busy > > teaching. For the teaching to be effective it has to be informed, for > > the community to be attractive it has to have a vigorous intellectual > > life. Dialogue was doing exactly what it ought to have been doing at > > that time (no email, remember - a journal was the only way to deliver > > the vitamins the body needed) and it was doing it how it was supposed > > to - i.e., it submitted all its articles to the National Assembly for > > checking (and had a fair few rejected, as I did in my project). Its > > failure, and many many failures, are not due in my view to Juan's > > "handful of authoritarians" (tch tch, conspiracy theories Juan??) but > > rather to bad policy. Which is still in place, but fortunately less > > burdensome in the days of email. > > > > Well, I'm only halfway down your post, but I will leave the rest. I > > have the distinct impression that Baha'is as a whole are unaware of > > how the censorship review system works, and how publishing in the > > Baha'i framework works. > > For examples of censored email messages see my postings to news.groups. > > Not a few have expressed surprise to me that > > there *was* such a system, while others - as we saw on srb a while > > ago - would like to see a system in which the National Assemblies > > first decide what the "Baha'i view" is and then get someone to write > > it. In between these it's hard to have a well-informed discussion. > > It really only affects writers and publishers in an immediate and > > financial way, so it is hard to explain the concerns to others. > > > > sigh > > > > Sen > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Sen McGlinn Sen.McGlinn@Bahai.NL > > *** > > Let the friends recall and ever bear in mind > > the repeated exhortations and glowing promises of our beloved Master > > with reference to the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar, > > the crowning institution in every Baha'i community. > > > > (Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, page 108) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > From - Mon Feb 10 04:52:45 1997 Received: from drew.berry.edu (168.31.232.19) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 23:44:11 -0500 Received: from odin.berry.edu (odin.berry.edu [168.31.232.26]) by drew.berry.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA14863 for <@moa.net>; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 22:56:16 -0500 Received: from ODIN/SpoolDir by odin.berry.edu (Mercury 1.21); 10 Feb 97 00:00:37 -400 Received: from SpoolDir by ODIN (Mercury 1.30); 10 Feb 97 00:00:26 -400 From: "Susan Maneck" Organization: Berry College To: @moa.net Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 00:00:20 EST Subject: (Fwd) censorship Reply-to: SManeck@berry.edu Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <24C89B23C8E@odin.berry.edu> X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5886 ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Self To: talisman@umich.edu Subject: censorship Cc: Ahang Rabbani,srb-mods Reply-to: SManeck@Berry.Edu Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 23:58:48 EST Dear Friends, I recently had a post rejected on SRB. On another list the need for consultation instead of disunity was raised. I pointed out that it is very difficult to have genuine consultation when not all voices can be heard. When this post was initially rejected I asked the moderators to reconsider their decision. That request, made over 24 hours ago, was never responded to so I decided to post my "rejection slip" here which includes my rejected post. You can decide for yourselves whether or not it was made it was written in a tone conducive to consultation. I will also post my letter asking the moderators to reconsider. People within the community don't seem to "get it" that when otherwise moderate voices become shrill it is often because they are suppressed even when they are the most reasonable. Susan ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: smsmith@mail.cybertrails.com To: SManeck@berry.edu Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 22:09:30 +0000 Subject: Re: censorship Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org Priority: normal Susan, Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. I am returning this submission to you unposted for a couple of reason. Firstly, much of the material in it is repetative in nature. This seems to have been hashed and rehashed. Secondly, I think that the coverage of this issue is getting too deep for much of the general readership of soc.religion.bahai. Please keep in mind that many of the readers of this newsgroup are seekers. They do not have the background in the Faith that you and others who have been discussing this issue, have. In reading through the many postings on this thread, there is much repetion, charges and countercharges, and it gets very confusing to follow. If someone who is interested in learning the fundamentals of the Faith were to jump in in the middle of all this, what would be their first impression? I ask you to consider this in light of the delicate nature of this thread. Sincerely, S. Michele Smith co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai [respond to: srb-mods@bcca.org] > From: "Susan Maneck" > Organization: Berry College > To: bahai-faith@bcca.org > Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:39:14 EST > Subject: Re: censorship > Reply-to: SManeck@berry.edu > Priority: normal > John writes: > > > >Dear Friends: This folly of incinuating that both the United States > > >National Spiritual Assembly and the Dialogue staff were 50 to 50% both to > > >blame and both were miscommunicating, seems to me a very good way to > > >elevate the station of the Journal staff, as well as to think that we are > > >qualified to judge our National Spiritual Assemblies. Folks, we do not > > >know, what goes on within our National Spiritual Assemblies, we do not > > >know what the group dynamics are, and for people connected to dialogue to > > >post here and portray that they can give us a picture of what the > > >National Spiritual Assembly did or did not do, I find as poor a paractice > > >as sitting in marriage counseling and focusing on the absent spouse, it > > >just doesn't work. au revoir > > > Dear John, > > If it is inappropriate to judge our NSA is not egually inappropriate > to judge the Dialogue staff? Mistakes were made. Apparently action > was initiated against these Baha'is under the mistaken premise that > they had distributed the article to delegates prior to the Convention. > Those sanctions were not withdrawn even after the mistake was > realized, perhaps because of the intemperate tone of the > communications which these individuals had with the institutions in > the course of the investigation. . But anger and even paranoia are a > human thing to express when one believes a grave injustice has been > done to them. Thereafter these Baha'is felt antagonistic towards the > Administration. Talisman created a network of people some of whom > shared similarily negative experiences with the Administration. As > one former Talismanian put it; a skewed discourse developed which was > "grounded in the assumption that these experiences were were somehow > normative or key to understanding the essential characteristics of > Baha'i organizational practices." As these experiences were related > and recycled over and over again an exceedingly negative "group think" > developed. These extreme expressions created concern in the World > Centre which launched an investigation into the loyalty of these > persons and Covenantal issues were raised. That action, however, only > confirmed these individuals worst fears over the nature of our > administrative structure. > > Grave errors, it seems to me, were made on many peoples parts, and the > damage done probably cannot be entirely undone. The question is where > do we go from here? To what extent might prevailing attitudes within > the Baha'i community which tend to stifle open discussions lead to > extreme negative criticisms when people suddenly find they have a > forum? We all know from our own experience that when we "sit" on our > anger, it often explodes down the road in an inappropriate manner. How > do we nuture a "safe" environment within our feasts and on the floors > of our conventions and within our Institutions in which Baha'is will > feel encourage to express themselves fully and without recrimination? > > I hope these are the issues we can now focus on. > > Susan > > > From - Thu Feb 13 06:14:22 1997 Received: from drew.berry.edu (168.31.232.19) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:35:45 -0500 Received: from odin.berry.edu (odin.berry.edu [168.31.232.26]) by drew.berry.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id HAA13507 for <@moa.net>; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:47:56 -0500 Received: from ODIN/SpoolDir by odin.berry.edu (Mercury 1.21); 12 Feb 97 08:53:27 -400 Received: from SpoolDir by ODIN (Mercury 1.30); 12 Feb 97 08:53:18 -400 From: "Susan Maneck" Organization: Berry College To: @moa.net Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:53:10 EST Subject: (Fwd) Re: Dialogue thread on SRB Reply-to: SManeck@berry.edu Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <2856CE935FE@odin.berry.edu> X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 10761 Here it is. Susan ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- To: bahai-faith@bcca.org Reply-to: bahai-faith@bcca.org From: sscholl@jeffnet.org (White Cloud Press) Subject: Re: Dialogue thread on SRB Date: 10 Feb 1997 21:06:04 -0700 Organization: ---- Dear Friends, I have been informed of some of the posts on this list re: Dialogue magazine and the article "A Modest Proposal." It seems to me that several key issues remain unclear and, in some instances, the actions taken by the Dialogue editorial board have been misrepresented. Let me attempt to clarify. 1. The article "A Modest Proposal" was a collective effort by a fairly wide group of Baha'is in the Los Angeles area, mostly members of the Dialogue staff but a number of others joined in the consultation process that helped develop the article. The article's primary author was David Langness, who developed an initial draft, presented it to the Dialogue staff and interested friends. This led to a second draft that became the working paper that was submited to the NSA for review under the full title: "A Modest Proposal: Nine Recommendations for the Revitalization of the American Baha'i Community." We sent this working draft to the NSA even though we realized it was not in final form. 2. At the same time I sent the draft to the NSA for their review, I sent it to seven outside readers to solicit their feedback. To my knowledge none of these individuals were national convention delegates. However, it might be of interest to know who they were. They included Aux. Board members, the head of a permanent Baha'i school, senior NSA staff, two Baha'i scholars, a couple of national committee members. In short, I circulated it to prominent Baha'is who were either on the NSA payroll or close to the NSA--not a bright move if we were planning to take over the NSA! In doing so we sought their feedback to improve the article, to help us make it better and more acceptable to the Baha'i administration and the community at large. Most of the outside reviewers responded positively to the project and offered criticisms to the draft for improving it. None of these prominent and deepened Baha'is contacted me saying they felt we were engaged in any kind of negative criticism or improper action. 3. Once the NSA read the article they reacted in a rather extreme manner. In an attempt to better understand their concerns and to work with them in a spirit of cooperation, we met with two NSA members to go over the article line by line. These NSA members were very open and frank and expressed their concerns and explained how certain wording or specific proposals would be interpreted by the NSA as confrontational, or, in some instances, our initial proposals were, in fact, matters that should be addressed to the Universal House of Justice. We agreed to adopt every one of the suggestions of the NSA members, and Dialogue editor Sidney Morrison was asked to prepare a final draft for the NSA. At this meeting, it was emphasized by the NSA members that they understood the positive spirit and motivations of the Dialogue staff in preparing the article, that the proposals, as they were to be modified based on this consultation, were important and should be circulated within the community. It was even suggested by the NSA members that it is these kinds of ideas that should be circulated to the national convention delegates. 4. Based on this positive meeting, I contacted the Office of the Secretary in Wilmette and suggested that if the revised article met with the approval of the NSA, we would be happy to provide national convention delegates with a copy of the article. I did not expect this to be approved, but in light of the positive response we received from two NSA members, I thought it was a long shot worth asking about. 5. Shortly thereafter I was accused by the NSA of circulating the article to dozens and dozens of delgates in an attempt to engage in "negative electioneering" and to attack the NSA. In fact, to the best of my knowledge only two delegates saw the draft of "A Modest Proposal," and these two were Los Angeles area members of the Dialogue editorial and advisory boards. On hearing this charge, I submitted to the NSA the extent of the circulation of the draft and the cover letter I sent to the outside readers. In my letter to outside readers there was no indication of this being a "dissident manifesto" or any kind of subtle attempt to undermine the authority, or malign the integrity, of the NSA. 6. These documented *facts* always seems to get lost in the accounts by those who criticize our actions and assume to know our motivations. A proper understanding of the sequence of events is crucial to reaching an accurate assessment of the affair and of the motives of the disputants. It deals with the old Watergate question: what did they know and when did they know it? The NSA was informed very early on that we did not circulate the article to delegates. A full month before they denounced the Dialogue staff at national convention and circulated their accusations of negative electioneering and attempting to sway the delegates, they had all the information from us about who the article had been sent to along with my cover letter to the outside readers. I have requested the NSA or UHJ to provide any evidence of this accusation, to bring forth even one delegate who I sent the article to let alone the "dozens and dozens" of delegates I supposedly contacted according to the NSA. They have yet to respond with any contrary evidence to support their charges. 7. Consequently, I disagree with Susan Maneck when she says things like: >Apparently >action was initiated against these Baha'is under the mistaken premise >that they had distributed the article to delegates prior to the >Convention. While others have their opinions, it is my feeling that the National Spiritual Assembly had to be aware that we were innocent of these charges and I feel that they somehow misled the Universal House of Justice, the convention delegates, and the general community due to what I personally perceive as false accusations. 8. In one post on this list it was noted that Dialgoue was never commanded by the Baha'i institutions to cease and desist publication. This is true, but reveals a rather unsophisticated understanding of how Baha'i publishing operates. It seems to me that modus operandi of the NSA re: Dialogue was to make it clear to the American Baha'i community that we were a renegade "dissident" group attempting to subvert the administrative order via our campaign of negative criticisms. This was done by sending out the letter to all Aux. Board members and assistants disparging our work followed by an open denunciation of the editors by the NSA to the national convention delegates. Furthermore, members of national committees, national center staff, and prominent Baha'is were warned not to have any association with the editors or to write for the magazine. It is my understanding from national center staff that at least some of the Dialogue editors were designated "internal enemies of the faith" and that a blacklist was circulated in high Baha'i circles. In a closed system such as the Baha'i faith, which is a very small community where most information is spread via gossip and backchannel communications, this is the prefered method for marginalizing unwelcome views and those who hold them. There was no need to officially ban the magazine when the magazine could be shut down by more delicate and PR-friendly forms of control. This campaign was, indeed, effective, and we realized that in such a hostile environment it was impossible to carry on with our work. The closing of the magazine was devastating to the staff. 9. I would like to remind the members of this list that Dialogue followed all the established policies and guidelines for Baha'i publishing. Every article dealing with the Baha'i faith was first approved by the NSA's review committee. Prof. Maneck is correct that our work was carefully monitored and scrutinized. I find it unfair for Baha'i institutions to demand that we submit to censorship and then condemn our publishing program as an attack on the integrity of Baha'i institutions for publishing materials that the official review agency approved. You just cannot have it both ways. I am grateful to Prof. Maneck for emphasizing that "A Modest Proposal" was never published and that all the hub-bub was over an article that had been properly submitted for review and was still in the review stages. As I noted in an appeal letter to the Universal House of Justice, if the NSA had honest concerns about the title, the listing of a the collective authors names, or any content, all they needed to do was present their concerns to us. If they found the title offensive, we would have changed it. If they did not like a listing of all those involved in the creation of the article as co-authors, we would have dropped the names and run it under "From the Editors" or whatever they suggested. 10. Finally, when I was a Baha'i, I sought in many ways to resolve these issues with the Baha'i institutions, quietly, privately, and in a spirit of openness and reconciliation. But reconciliation requires two parties to come together to seek understanding and healing. Following a meeting in Wilmette in 1987 with the NSA, I expressed my hope that we had put behind us any misgivings regarding each others' motives and that we find a way to work together for the good of the faith. I invited the NSA to suggest a publishing project for Dialogue to work on that would be of assistance to them. I invited every member of the NSA to phone me at any time with any concerns they might have about the magazine. I invited every member of the NSA to contribute an article to the magazine. I suggested that a meeting between the NSA and the Dialogue staff be held at the Bosch School as this would provide an opportunity to spend some relaxed time together in prayer, consultation and fellowship, so that we could come to know each other in a friendly fashion and seek ways to resolve issues and create a sincere love and appreciation for each other. Each and every one of these attempts at reconciliation initiated by me were met with silence. I trust that these comments are useful in helping those trying to follow this discussion. With best wishes, Steve Scholl ----------------------- Steven Scholl White Cloud Press PO Box 3400 Ashland, OR 97520 Phone/fax 541-488-6415 From - Mon Apr 07 07:52:14 1997 >From newgroups-errors@isc.org Fri Mar 28 04:20:54 1997 Received: (from tale@localhost) by gro.dd.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) id HAA10894 for FG@hotmail.com; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 07:20:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 07:20:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703281220.HAA10894@gro.dd.org> Precedence: junk Errors-To: newgroups-errors@isc.org From: newgroups-request@isc.org (David C Lawrence) Reply-To: group-advice@isc.org To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: [auto-reply] Re: Coercion in the Bahai Faith X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1184 This is an automatically generated reply to a message from you which landed in my mailbox. Auto-replies for moderators-request or group-advice mail will be sent for every message. Others will only be sent once per week to any given address. group-advice@isc.org has received your message and one of the three of us (Russ Allbery, David Wright or I) should be replying as soon as we reasonably can, but that might unfortunately be a few days depending on how very busy we all are. If you have not heard from us in over a week and feel you really need a reply, then please write again and be sure to include reference to your earlier message. Your message might be forwarded to group-mentors@acpub.duke.edu if it is a request for help with a group proposal. This group is a larger body of volunteers who assist people in putting together good proposals for new Usenet groups. Please understand that moderating news.announce.newgroups and working at group-advice@isc.org is volunteer service. Your patience and understanding for the occasional long delay in handling your message is greatly appreciated. David Lawrence, moderator, news.announce.newgroups From - Mon Apr 07 07:52:17 1997 >From bill@netagw.com Fri Mar 28 09:11:22 1997 Received: from alterdial.UU.NET by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.22]) id QQcivs05989; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:11:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from netagw.com by alterdial.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: Cust111.Max27.Orlando.FL.MS.UU.NET [153.34.176.111]) id QQcivs19562; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:11:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by netagw.com id MAA15549; Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:11:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:11:09 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Aten Message-Id: <199703281711.MAA15549@netagw.com> To: FG@f19.hotmail.com Subject: [auto-reply] Re: Coercion in the Bahai Faith Errors-To: bill@netagw.com Precedence: bulk X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4928 This is an automatically generated reply to a message from you which has landed in my personal mailbox. You should only see this message once a week for any given e-mail address. This auto-reply system exists because I get a lot of mail from people with whom I have never corresponded. It may be a few days or even a couple of weeks before I can reply to some of it. I sincerely apologize to any of you that this message bothers. The vast majority of mail that I receive has something to do with the Usenet newsgroup creation process. Answers to the majority of the questions that I receive are listed below. If this auto-reply answers your particular question, this may be the only response that you get from me. If your mail had nothing to do with the UVV or Usenet in general, the rest of this auto-reply probably has nothing to do with you and it may even be quite confusing, so you may want to stop reading here. :) If your mail was: * to ask about help regarding Usenet newsgroups: About Contact instead ----- --------------- Request a copy of the Usenet article "Where to find out how to create a newsgroup" ---> Help creating a new newsgroup ---> RFD submission status/issues ---> Request a copy of the Proponent Questionnaire (PQ) ---> Questions about an active CFV Proposal questions ---> "proponent listed in the CFV" Voting questions ---> "votetaker listed in the CFV" Other UVV/CFV questions/issues ---> Questions about alt.* groups ---> Sorry, but you need to look elsewhere. The UVV doesn't deal with alt.* groups. Try reading the alt.config newsgroup. * to ask about the status of a RFD or CFV *after* the n.a.n moderator has published it in the news.announce.newgroups newsgroup, go to the news.groups newsgroup and find the "UVV: Daily RFD, PQ, and CFV status report" posting. It details everything the UVV is currently tracking. * to ask about a Proponent Questionnaire (PQ) submission, new submissions will be added to the database as quickly as possible, but this still may take me several days depending on my work schedule. Please be patient. I WILL send you an email stating that your PQ was either accepted or rejected (with an explanation). If you do NOT receive an email from me in a reasonable amount of time, I'm either away from the net for a few days and haven't processed your submission, or I did not receive it. If in doubt, write me directly and ask. Don't assume! * meant to be a vote, this is the wrong address. You need to read the CFV and try again. In the unlikely event that your vote was addressed correctly but it wound up in this mailbox anyway, (it can happen) I will notice that and take care of it after I return. Don't panic. * to ask about how to access a newsgroup that has recently passed a vote, you should ask your news administrator. * to ask (or comment) about a proposal, you have the wrong person. I am not the proponent. Please READ the RFD or CFV again and contact the proponent at the address listed in the article. * to request a copy of a CFV, please look in "news.announce.newgroups" or "news.groups" on your news server. If you still cannot find it, try the following URL (replace "proposal.name" with the real proposed newsgroup name): * to ask when the results of a particular vote that I am running will be posted, it takes me some time to sort through hundreds of mail messages to make a reasonable effort to verify the results. The results will get posted as quickly as possible after the vote closes. * to ask when a new newsgroup will be created after it passed its vote, I do not know. I only take the votes. David Lawrence, the moderator for news.announce.newgroups, issues the newgroup commands. But please do not bug him either, he is far busier than I am and answering these questions only delays the process further. * an unsolicited commercial advertisement... go away, I'm not interested. Thank you for your patience and understanding. -- Bill Aten Member, UseNet Volunteer Votetakers UseNet Volunteer Votetakers WWW page: From - Thu Apr 10 08:20:56 1997 >From bill@netagw.com Thu Mar 27 09:14:55 1997 Received: from alterdial.UU.NET by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.22]) id QQcisa12045; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:12:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from netagw.com by alterdial.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: Cust101.Max27.Orlando.FL.MS.UU.NET [153.34.176.101]) id QQcisa24581; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:12:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by netagw.com id MAA06983; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:12:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:12:31 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Aten Message-Id: <199703271712.MAA06983@netagw.com> To: FG@f12.hotmail.com Subject: [auto-reply] Re: Copy of Towfiq's NO vote instructions Errors-To: bill@netagw.com Precedence: bulk X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4928 This is an automatically generated reply to a message from you which has landed in my personal mailbox. You should only see this message once a week for any given e-mail address. This auto-reply system exists because I get a lot of mail from people with whom I have never corresponded. It may be a few days or even a couple of weeks before I can reply to some of it. I sincerely apologize to any of you that this message bothers. The vast majority of mail that I receive has something to do with the Usenet newsgroup creation process. Answers to the majority of the questions that I receive are listed below. If this auto-reply answers your particular question, this may be the only response that you get from me. If your mail had nothing to do with the UVV or Usenet in general, the rest of this auto-reply probably has nothing to do with you and it may even be quite confusing, so you may want to stop reading here. :) If your mail was: * to ask about help regarding Usenet newsgroups: About Contact instead ----- --------------- Request a copy of the Usenet article "Where to find out how to create a newsgroup" ---> Help creating a new newsgroup ---> RFD submission status/issues ---> Request a copy of the Proponent Questionnaire (PQ) ---> Questions about an active CFV Proposal questions ---> "proponent listed in the CFV" Voting questions ---> "votetaker listed in the CFV" Other UVV/CFV questions/issues ---> Questions about alt.* groups ---> Sorry, but you need to look elsewhere. The UVV doesn't deal with alt.* groups. Try reading the alt.config newsgroup. * to ask about the status of a RFD or CFV *after* the n.a.n moderator has published it in the news.announce.newgroups newsgroup, go to the news.groups newsgroup and find the "UVV: Daily RFD, PQ, and CFV status report" posting. It details everything the UVV is currently tracking. * to ask about a Proponent Questionnaire (PQ) submission, new submissions will be added to the database as quickly as possible, but this still may take me several days depending on my work schedule. Please be patient. I WILL send you an email stating that your PQ was either accepted or rejected (with an explanation). If you do NOT receive an email from me in a reasonable amount of time, I'm either away from the net for a few days and haven't processed your submission, or I did not receive it. If in doubt, write me directly and ask. Don't assume! * meant to be a vote, this is the wrong address. You need to read the CFV and try again. In the unlikely event that your vote was addressed correctly but it wound up in this mailbox anyway, (it can happen) I will notice that and take care of it after I return. Don't panic. * to ask about how to access a newsgroup that has recently passed a vote, you should ask your news administrator. * to ask (or comment) about a proposal, you have the wrong person. I am not the proponent. Please READ the RFD or CFV again and contact the proponent at the address listed in the article. * to request a copy of a CFV, please look in "news.announce.newgroups" or "news.groups" on your news server. If you still cannot find it, try the following URL (replace "proposal.name" with the real proposed newsgroup name): * to ask when the results of a particular vote that I am running will be posted, it takes me some time to sort through hundreds of mail messages to make a reasonable effort to verify the results. The results will get posted as quickly as possible after the vote closes. * to ask when a new newsgroup will be created after it passed its vote, I do not know. I only take the votes. David Lawrence, the moderator for news.announce.newgroups, issues the newgroup commands. But please do not bug him either, he is far busier than I am and answering these questions only delays the process further. * an unsolicited commercial advertisement... go away, I'm not interested. Thank you for your patience and understanding. -- Bill Aten Member, UseNet Volunteer Votetakers UseNet Volunteer Votetakers WWW page: From - Sun Apr 13 08:04:33 1997 >From bn872@freenet.carleton.ca Thu Apr 10 11:26:54 1997 Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca (bn872@freenet3.carleton.ca [134.117.136.23]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.3/8.6.4) with ESMTP id OAA22884 for ; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:19:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (bn872@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca (8.8.4/NCF-Sun-Client) id OAA25894; Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:19:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:19:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199704101819.OAA25894@freenet3.carleton.ca> From: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca (McKenny Michael) To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: [bn872@freenet.carleton.ca: Letter to UHJ and Reply] Reply-To: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 29010 ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca (McKenny Michael) To: bahai-st@jcccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us Cc: talisman@umich.edu Subject: Letter to UHJ and Reply Date: Thu, 10 Apr In the Baha'i Studies List today: Greetings from Ottawa. Here's a copy of the letter sent to the Universal House of Justice on March 23rd and the reply. I've not studied the reply, so I have no comment at this time. I believe the appendices to the reply are already well-known. If not, I'll post them soon. If anyone wishes a copy of one or more of these and doesn't see the desired appendex (ices) within say 24 hours, simply ask me to send it (them). Happy Reading, Peace, Michael To the Universal House of Justice Greetings from Ottawa. In January when Auxiliary Board Member Susie Tamas met with me she warmly encouraged me to present my concerns about the Universal House of Justice to you. Throughout February she very attentively considered the preliminary drafts of the letter I began to compose in response. On reflection, moved by the spirit of this special period of the Fast, I came to perceive from her considered comments that I was trying to write to you from the head and that this was not enough. Aware of my imperfections, here I try also to open to you my heart. In the darkest hour before the dawn, when war seemed inevitable and the prime minister of this country travelled to the capitals of the nuclear powers to plead for peace, I prayed to the beloved Guardian: "Dearest Shoghi Effendi, my understanding is that you have said quite clearly this cataclysm will come. Your words depict the falling of fearsome weapons of destruction upon our cities and the deaths of two thirds of the people of the world. Please, I beg you, would it not be better for us to be spared this devastation, for us to find a symbolic explanation of such frightful words than for you to be confirmed as completely and literally correct by means of the murder of these billions of people?" My ardent prayer, often repeated at that time, was that God demonstrate His all-compelling authority and might by inspiring us peacefully to transform this planet into that reflection of heaven foretold in Sacred Scripture. I asked Him: "Is it not a greater sign of divine power and love to grant human leaders the imagination and will to move ever more peacefully towards world peace than through inaction to provide the opportunity for the indescribable agonies of such a holocaust? Is it not more befitting the Almighty, the Most Munificent Creator of the Worlds to lead us to transform with our own hands physically and spiritually the dark landscapes around our bodies and our souls into the perfumed gardens visualized in the Writings than to watch the burning craters appear, radiation ride the winds and the minority of survivors driven rather than guided into the Cause of God?" I was not alone. In every Terran language, from every land on Earth the pleas for peace were raised to Heaven. And the Prime Mover, to the astonishment of the nations of the world, answered. That mortal man portrayed by Cold War rhetoric as the Evil Emperor was inspired to lead the way in the move to peace, even at the cost of his position and his Empire itself, an event perhaps without parallel in the annals of this world. And the very precious soul we call the Priceless Pearl did not insist on inflicting humanity with the literal fulfillment of his authoritative statements about weapons and death. Auxiliary Board Member Susie Tamas in response to concerns I raised at what I considered a dangerously divisive impression that the definition of a true and loyal believer consisted in one's literal interpretation of the Word of God shared with me this passage which you wrote on March 6, 1982: "In considering the whole field of divinely conferred infallibility one must be careful to avoid the literal understanding and petty mindedness that has so often characterized discussions of this matter in the Christian world. The Manifestation of God (and to a lesser degree, Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi) has to convey tremendous concepts covering the whole field of human life and activity to people whose present knowledge and degree of understanding are far below His. He must use the limited medium of human language against the limited and often erroneous background of His audience's traditional knowledge and current understanding to raise them to a wholly new level of awareness and behaviour. It is a human tendency against which the Manifestation warns us, to measure His statements against the inaccurate standard of the acquired knowledge of mankind. We tend to take them and place them within one or the other of the existing categories of human philosophy or science while, in reality, they transcend these and will, if properly understood, open new and vast horizons to our understanding. "Some sayings of the Manifestation are clear and obvious. Among these are laws of behaviour. Others are elucidations which lead men from their present level of understanding to a new one. Others are pregnant allusions, the significance of which only becomes apparent as the knowledge and understanding of the reader grow. And all are integral parts of one great Revelation intended to raise mankind to a new level of its evolution." This uplifting of humanity is a process which seems to be continuing outside the Faith. The beloved Guardian says, "It should also be borne in mind that the machinery of the Cause has been so fashioned, that whatever is deemed necessary to incorporate into it in order to keep it in the forefront of all progressive movements, can, according to the provisions made by Baha'u'llah, be safely embodied therein." (WOB 22-23) In 1988 in response to your call to summon the troops into the Cause of God by sharing with them the Peace Message, I presented a copy of this document to almost everyone I knew. I invited many of them to regular followup "Peace Talks" at my place. This resulted in some keen consideration of this Faith by people of capacity, members of many circles and organizations. Whatever the probability, it was not impossible that some of these very active and capable individuals could have ignited the fire of the love of the Glory of God within troops of souls. When a non-Baha'i exposed that this Faith does not practise the full equality of the sexes, none of these people could accept that the Will of God for this Age could be so far from the forefront of all progressive movements as to perpetuate the concept and the practice of women being excluded from highest office. The spirit of this very communication, "The Promise of World Peace", moved the leaders of the Cold War beyond mistrust and the paralysis of will which had so divided and threatened humankind for decades. It would appear that the Cause of God today needs to be uplifted above such mistrust and paralysis of will. You called for: the submergence of theological differences, identification of and guidance by principle, the sweeping away of assumptions and formulae ceasing to promote the welfare of a continually evolving humanity, women to be welcomed into full partnership. Indeed, you advised the rulers and peoples of this world: "The emancipation of women, the achievement of full equality between the sexes, is one of the most important, though less acknowledged prerequisites of peace." I am delighted to be able to tell you that almost everyone I know seems to agree with you on this point. The openness of my heart compels me to add that apparently no non-Baha'i I know accepts that the Baha'i Faith may claim to practise what it is preaching until women may serve on the Universal House of Justice. An assertion that somehow there may be equality of men and women with the highest positions reserved for men, draws forth scorn and demonstrates that this is a false religion ("By their fruits shall ye know them") of people "whose words exceed their deeds", a people given to Orwellian Newspeak, doubletalk and euphemism. Last year I learned of some of the energizing discoveries made which facilitate our demonstration of the clearly expressed principle of the equality of men and women that we may surpass that petty minded preference of an interpretation which not only tasks reasonable thought when read in full, but tests souls beyond their capacity, something God has urged us not to do. If there is to be a choice between a literal application of the concept of infallibility and the implementation of such a basic principle as the equality of men and women, bearing in mind your own words concerning literalism and infallibility quoted above and the quote that "It is incumbent upon them who are in authority to exercise moderation in all things" (THE PROCLAMATION OF BAHA'U'LLAH p. 113) are we truly powerless to be people whose principled deeds clearly match our words? There is also the warning: "In all matters moderation is desirable. If a thing is carried to excess, it will prove a source of evil." (Quoted in BAHA'U'LLAH p. 46.) The chief tidings in my prayer to you is that, in the estimation of troops, for us to refuse to moderate our attachment to literal infallibility even when this leads us to subservience to previous levels of understanding at variance with Baha'u'llah's fundamental principle exposes the unworthiness, the hypocrisy, the falsity of this Faith. Many and varied are the words possible and my heart is overwhelmed. How may I proceed when these eyes dim with tears? Still, how may I not continue to pray as I prayed for the protection of this world and its peoples from impending devastation? You yourselves have drawn the connection between the full equality of the sexes and peace, and presented the choice as to "Whether peace is to be reached only after unimaginable horrors precipitated by humanity's stubborn clinging to old patterns of behaviour, or is to be embraced now by an act of consultative will." The connection of these two points, the necessity of this species to will to arise above old patterns of behaviour in order to avoid unimaginable horrors and the necessity to move beyond the period of the restriction of women in order for there to be peace convulses my soul, because it is evident to non-Baha'i observers that the community to which you directed the scrutiny of the nations is still bogged down in that anachronistic pattern of behaviour which has supreme authority in the grasp of men alone. My heart is very perturbed both because I fear this has to a significant extent delayed the creative and positive forces from taking full advantage of the unexpected opportunity provided by the courage and vision of the Soviet leadership and because I am aware of what seems a very unhealthy anticipation within the Faith for the chastisement of the peoples of the world who largely have ignored this latest Revelation. The anguished questions that follow may seem truly amazing. However, I would not be opening fully to you my heart were I to leave them unspoken. Is it really so unspiritual, is it worth the death penalty for individuals and the burning of cities that the literal words of the fundamental principle of the equality of the two sexes be seen as taking precedence over a narrowly literal perception of the Guardian's interpretation of those words of the Master which appear to refer to the House of Justice in Chicago? Is humanity to experience that catastrophe that the so-called Evil Emperor delayed, if he did not overcome it, or some other one, to cleanse the world of those so influenced by the Prince of Peace that they expect Baha'is to comply fully with His fundamental principle, although the world in the lifetime of the Blessed Beauty did not follow this principle, one reason, perhaps, for its gradual implementation? How may the troops pour in through the open gates of this Faith, while this drawbridge remains raised in their faces? At this point I feel I must mention my father. You know I did receive some advice that it was not a good idea to write to you, and that if I did I ought to say what you'd find pleasing, as you may otherwise respond in the manner of historical Terran monarchs and view one daring to impart information you may not like to hear as quite a presumptuous fellow. Yet, how would I contribute to the proof we are leaving behind anachronistic habits if I remained silent or, according to past patterns of behaviour, concealed from the Source of All Good the real news of how this Faith is now becoming perceived by ordinary people? Although I lived in the same house as my father until I was twenty-three years old, I heard him say almost nothing about how he spent his early 20s. This was a time of such intense experience for him that he still does not speak of it, not even after the passage of fifty years. He, as so very many people at that time, had his life greatly impacted by events in the world at large. He left the family farm to participate in the defence of the Free World from one of this Century's most notorious examples of totalitarianism. The relevance of this is that this country, so extolled in the Tablets of the Divine Plan for, among other things, its freedom, others in the Free World and those lands which experienced totalitarian regimes contain a lot of people who are quite unsympathetic to certain characteristics of those unpleasant administrations inflicting such anguish upon both their citizens and foreigners. Among these features is that old pattern of behaviour which involves the control of information. My weeping heart leads me to tell you very bluntly that my perception of people here is that no alleged details unflattering to this Faith can exceed in negative impact the fact that there is control of information within the Baha'i Faith. Forbidding the use of the word "censorship" and insisting upon the term "review" only seems to underline the very distasteful impression this gives of our Faith. It is the same with the term "exemption" being insisted on as a substitute for "excluded" in reference to women hitherto being prevented from serving on the Universal House of Justice. Very frankly, it is very difficult to see the distinction between such Baha'i practices and those directed by Goebbels which at length required the intervention of my father and many millions like him. I can not describe for you the extent of the impact it had on me when I learned that your initial response to the reception of the information that the Writings contain passages in which women are referred to as "men/rulers" and that it is quite likely that Abdu'l-Baha was speaking about the House of Justice in Chicago and not the Universal House of Justice at all was to prohibit the publication of this data. It may suffice for you to know that this was the principle reason I told Auxiliary Board Member Susie Tamas that a literal understanding of the infallibility of the Universal House of Justice would be contrary to the evidence of my senses. Further, while the Constitution of the Universal House of Justice contains as one of your powers and duties, "To safeguard the personal rights, freedom and initiative of individuals," a responsibility resonating strongly with peoples in this Century which has endured such onerous oppression, you have made recent comments that may be perceived as a denunciation of "liberty", "liberalism" and "freedom". I can imagine no more effective means to inflict harm upon this Faith than for someone to call a news conference and simply read quotes hostile to liberalism and liberty. Would you not be understood as demonstrating this reponsibility to protect personal rights was falling victim to euphemism and cause alarm that were God to permit you to direct the course of human affairs this would inflict upon the peoples of this planet a global oppression, compared to which the regionalized and relatively low tech regimes of the recent past would pale? May I not pray that you in future remove such an opportunity from anyone wishing harm upon this Cause, that however you raise our understanding of the value of co-operation and harmony, you keep before our eyes this shining jewel of individual rights and freedoms for which my father endured so much and many others died? Will you join me in praying that the Blessed Beauty ever inspire you to guide humanity through insightful and imaginative vision, embracing fundamental principle and winning by this means the admiration and wholehearted support of those comprising a maturing species, as remote as possible from the totalitarian tendency to focus on literal details defining legitimate authority and the insistence upon the obedience of anything at all? So very many people yearn to witness the evidences of the influence of the Higher Worlds that they may exert all their energies backing something so constructive and positively creative. Very few of these can see in the tedious reiteration of an insistence that there is yet another Centre which must be obeyed whatever it may command anything more than the basis for the commission of immoral and unethical deeds. The fact that women have been prohibited from service on the Universal House of Justice and that Scriptural grounds to lift this prohibition hitherto have been concealed from the generality of the believers does nothing to allay what ought to be quite incredible apprehensions about our similarity to other totalitarian systems uttering such assertions and staining the annals of history with unprincipled behaviour. One of the most illuminating events in the more than fifteen decades of the history of the New Era was that glorious spiritual act by the Hands of the Cause of God on the occasion of the election of the Universal House of Justice. In a deed elevated above traditional human temptation to seek to retain control of authority, these laudable souls not only permitted the Supreme Body to replace them in directing the affairs of the Cause of God, but went so far as to ask not to be elected to the Universal House of Justice. This happening has a profound influence on the soul of any seeker of truth receiving word of it. How likewise must be the impact of each example of the ability of the Prince of Peace to elevate His declared followers, and, especially, those wielding authority within His Faith, above the normal manner of human behaviour. May we not expect the peoples of the world to respond very positively to every proof that this is indeed a New World Order? In conclusion, here is the gist of my ardent prayers for the progress of the Cause of God and the protection of the peoples of this planet from cataclysm, death and destruction: May we please receive the communication that from now on women may also be considered eligible for membership on the Universal House of Justice? May we please be notified of the suspension of the temporary policy of review? May we please be guided to an understanding of co-operation and harmony consistent with "the personal rights, freedom and initiative of individuals", and sensitive to the significance in the Free World of the terms and concepts "freedom", "liberty" and "liberalism"? May we please delight in the vision of human harmony radiating from the World Centre, embracing in a wondrously rich garden the great variety of human thought bestowed upon this species by an Ever-Loving, Most Bounteous, All-Powerful Creator? May the Most Merciful Lord allow the intent of this message to transcend all the barriers to effective communication and permit you to see what is in my heart that you may know for certain that the above was written only with the purpose of supporting you in guiding humanity towards what is truly worthy of being described as an ever-advancing civilization and a Golden Age. "I beseach Thee, O my God, by that Letter which, as soon as it proceeded out of the mouth of Thy will, hath caused the oceans to surge, and the winds to blow, and the fruits to be revealed, and the trees to spring forth, and all past traces to vanish, and all veils to be rent asunder, and them who are devoted to Thee to hasten unto the light of the countenance of their Lord, the Unconstrained, to make known unto me what lay hid in the treasuries of Thy knowledge and concealed within the repositories of Thy wisdom. Thou seest me, O my God, holding to Thy Name, the Most Holy, the Most Luminous, the Most Mighty, the Most Great, the Most Exalted, the Most Glorious, and clinging to the hem of the robe to which have clung all in this world and in the world to come." Peace, Michael. Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 13:52:22 IDT From: secretariat@bwc.org ("Baha'i World Centre") To: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca 8 April 1997 Transmitted by email: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca Mr. Michael McKenny Canada Dear Baha'i Friend, The Universal House of Justice has asked us to respond on its behalf to your email message of 23 March 1997, in which you share your thoughts and suggestions on a number of issues related to the development of the Cause. The sincerity of your struggle to understand, both intellectually and spiritually, the implications of Baha'u'llah's Revelation is apparent both from your message and from your desire to respond to the comments of the Auxiliary Board member Mrs. Susanne Tamas. It is hoped that the comments which follow and the related enclosures will be of assistance to you in this effort. As it is not possible to go into all of the detailed points raised in your letter, the House of Justice believes that it will be most helpful to address two specific issues which are clearly of particular concern to you. These are the question of the ineligibility of women for membership on the Universal House of Justice and that of the temporary policy requiring pre-publication review of works on the Faith written by Baha'is. With respect to the first of these two subjects, we have been asked to enclose two documents which you will find especially relevant: 1. a copy of a letter of 31 May 1988 written by the House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of New Zealand, which reviews in detail the documentation related to the subject of the principle in the Faith's teaching which limits membership on the Universal House of Justice to men; and 2. a related document recently prepared by the Baha'i World Centre's Research Department on the concept of "'umumi," a term which is central to an understanding of this same subject. With respect to the second of the two issues mentioned, we enclose a lengthy extract from a letter of 29 December 1988 written on behalf of the House of Justice to the followers of Baha'u'llah in the United States on the subject of individual rights and freedoms. As you will note, this statement addresses directly the question of the continuing necessity at this stage in the evolution of the Cause, for the policy of pre-publication review. Mr. Michael McKenny 8 April 1997 Page 2 The House of Justice believes that, in studying these documents, you should challenge yourself to reflect deeply on the vital importance, to one's spiritual life and intellectual advancement, of the Faith's teaching that each individual must investigate truth for himself or herself. Specifically, in the light of current Internet discussions in which you are a participant, you will want to consider carefully and prayerfully the extent to which your current thinking may have been influenced by the views of individuals who have presented themselves -- and perhaps, to some extent, been accepted by you -- as "scholarly authorities" on the Baha'i teachings. While all of us can benefit in our study of the Revelation from consulting a range of views held by other believers, Baha'u'llah calls us to maintain a condition of spiritual autonomy as a basic prerequisite for spiritual search, "For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself." note Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 143 The Cause of God, encompassing teachings, laws and institutions, has been given to us one and whole by its divine Creator. To the challenge of demonstrating this distinguishing unity of the Cause a global community has brought the testimony of a century and a half of heroism and of sacrifice of self. Only those influences which lead us more deeply into a comprehension of the organic wholeness of Baha'u'llah's Revelation -- and thus into a fuller consciousness of our own integrity as individuals -- can rightly claim to merit our attention. The House of Justice assures you of its ardent prayers at the Holy Threshold that Baha'u'llah will surround you with His blessings and will confirm your devoted efforts to deepen your understanding of His purpose. With loving Baha'i greetings, Department of the Secretariat Enclosures 3 (appended) -- "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) - To switch to the digested list, send the following commands to major@johnco.cc.ks.us in the message body - unsubscribe bahai-st subscribe bahai-st-digest -- "My name's McKenny, Mike McKenny, Warrant Officer, Solar Guard." (Tom Corbett #1 STAND BY FOR MARS p2) From - Sun Apr 13 08:57:56 1997 BCC: FG@hotmail.com Message-ID: <3350D853.1F74@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 08:57:55 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca Subject: Re: [bn872@freenet.carleton.ca: Letter to UHJ and Reply] References: <199704101819.OAA25894@freenet3.carleton.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1953 It's taken me a few days to read all of your letter to the UHJ and the response.... You voice many of the concerns that I too have about the Faith.... I expect to receive basically the same answer.... A pity, really. I'm attempting to set up an email echo/listserv for alt.religion.bahai in order to maximize access for Bahais and non-Bahais to what is clearly a limited forum compared to what talk.religion.bahai, a major hierarchy newsgroup, would have been. I'm worrying there's going to be the same frantic opposition to it, requiring it to go through a separate vote.... I hope not. I just received a direct email message this morning from Donald Zhang Osborn opposing it and defending the motives of 691 NO votes.... Deja vu.... Be of good cheer. God has put antinomies in the human soul, and I can only conclude they're essential for human and religous development.... Fred -- McKenny Michael wrote: > > ================= Begin forwarded message ================= > > From: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca (McKenny Michael) > To: bahai-st@jcccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us > Cc: talisman@umich.edu > Subject: Letter to UHJ and Reply > Date: Thu, 10 Apr > > > In the Baha'i Studies List today: > > Greetings from Ottawa. > Here's a copy of the letter sent to the Universal House of > Justice on March 23rd and the reply. I've not studied the reply, > so I have no comment at this time. I believe the appendices to > the reply are already well-known. If not, I'll post them soon. > If anyone wishes a copy of one or more of these and doesn't see > the desired appendex (ices) within say 24 hours, simply ask me > to send it (them). > Happy Reading, > Peace, > Michael > From - Sun Apr 13 09:53:50 1997 >From FG@hotmail.com Sun Apr 13 05:58:05 1997 Received: (qmail 6030 invoked from network); 13 Apr 1997 12:56:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO default) (199.179.42.121) by hm2.hotmail.com with SMTP; 13 Apr 1997 12:56:28 -0000 Message-ID: <3350D853.1F74@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 08:57:55 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca Subject: Re: [bn872@freenet.carleton.ca: Letter to UHJ and Reply] References: <199704101819.OAA25894@freenet3.carleton.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1951 It's taken me a few days to read all of your letter to the UHJ and the response.... You voice many of the concerns that I too have about the Faith.... I expect to receive basically the same answer.... A pity, really. I'm attempting to set up an email echo/listserv for alt.religion.bahai in order to maximize access for Bahais and non-Bahais to what is clearly a limited forum compared to what talk.religion.bahai, a major hierarchy newsgroup, would have been. I'm worrying there's going to be the same frantic opposition to it, requiring it to go through a separate vote.... I hope not. I just received a direct email message this morning from Donald Zhang Osborn opposing it and defending the motives of 691 NO votes.... Deja vu.... Be of good cheer. God has put antinomies in the human soul, and I can only conclude they're essential for human and religous development.... Fred -- McKenny Michael wrote: > > ================= Begin forwarded message ================= > > From: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca (McKenny Michael) > To: bahai-st@jcccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us > Cc: talisman@umich.edu > Subject: Letter to UHJ and Reply > Date: Thu, 10 Apr > > > In the Baha'i Studies List today: > > Greetings from Ottawa. > Here's a copy of the letter sent to the Universal House of > Justice on March 23rd and the reply. I've not studied the reply, > so I have no comment at this time. I believe the appendices to > the reply are already well-known. If not, I'll post them soon. > If anyone wishes a copy of one or more of these and doesn't see > the desired appendex (ices) within say 24 hours, simply ask me > to send it (them). > Happy Reading, > Peace, > Michael > From - Wed Apr 09 08:19:50 1997 >From ahm@cbmi.upmc.edu Sun Mar 16 07:25:01 1997 Received: from local (ahm@localhost) by alpha.cbmi.upmc.edu (8.6.12/tethered $Revision: 1.3 $) ID ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:24:43 -0500 Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:24:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199703161524.KAA14567@alpha.cbmi.upmc.edu> From: Ahmad Hashem To: FG@hotmail.com cc: ariel@best.com (Catherine Hampton) Subject: [FG@hotmail.com: Re: Appeal to borthers and sisters to vote YES on talk.religion.bahai] X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 5855 Assalamu alaikum (hello), This note is to inform you about your submission to soc.religion.islam (SRI). I am afraid I cannot post your article as it is because in my view it is not sufficiently relevant to Islam for the purposes of this newsgroup. The moderators are preparing a weekly report on rejected posts, which will contain the title (edited if it is obscene), author name, email address, and reason for rejection for any post whose author wants it included. Readers may then email the author directly if they would like to see the post. If you would like to have your post included in this report, please let me know. Thank you for your contribution to SRI. Your involvement is very important and makes the newsgroup worth reading. Please do not let this note discourage you. Ahmad Hashem [Interim moderator] ------- Start of forwarded message ------- To: soc-religion-islam@agate.berkeley.edu Path: not-for-mail From: FG@hotmail.com Newsgroups: alt.religion.islam,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.religion.islam Subject: Re: Appeal to borthers and sisters to vote YES on talk.religion.bahai Date: 15 Mar 1997 11:38:47 GMT Organization: Reference.Com Posting Service Lines: 114 References: <857854775.23137@dejanews.com> Nntp-Posting-Host: shadowfax.reference.com Cc: afshin.afrashteh@utoronto.ca Originator: panuser@reference.com () Mr. Afrashteh: Since there's been a campaign to defeat talk.religion.bahai, I thought you might be interested in seeing the evidence. This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the Bahai woman's discussion listserv. >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai >Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few >months has finally come to a head. > >As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup >was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the >Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening >place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions >and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that >it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out >very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among >such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and >attacks on individuals and religious institutions. >Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude >postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been >moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my >opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a >high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone >and environment. We have received numerous compliments about >this over the years. > >Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if >he is a Baha'i or not), I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. >has accused the moderators of >soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not >allow his point of view to be posted there. I am not the only person to accuse, quitely accurately, the "moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the discussion on news.groups >As a result, he >has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called >talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains >about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to >post open insults and sarcasm, Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared it.... >and the moderators >asked him to re-phrase his postings. "Self-censor" would be more like it.... >He refused, and claimed >he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to >create a new newsgroup. I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... >Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion >it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost >identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow >any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. >Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there >exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as >talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions >"freely". The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > >HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com > >With the only text of the message being: > > I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai > It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when 100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is full of ignorant fanatics? You're doing a good job of it. >I would be happy to provide further information or >answer any questions about this matter. > >Regards, >Mark Towfiq > > Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -- Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. ------- End of forwarded message ------- From - Thu Apr 10 08:14:26 1997 >From ahm@cbmi.upmc.edu Sun Mar 16 07:25:01 1997 Received: from local (ahm@localhost) by alpha.cbmi.upmc.edu (8.6.12/tethered $Revision: 1.3 $) ID ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:24:43 -0500 Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:24:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199703161524.KAA14567@alpha.cbmi.upmc.edu> From: Ahmad Hashem To: FG@hotmail.com cc: ariel@best.com (Catherine Hampton) Subject: [FG@hotmail.com: Re: Appeal to borthers and sisters to vote YES on talk.religion.bahai] X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 5855 Assalamu alaikum (hello), This note is to inform you about your submission to soc.religion.islam (SRI). I am afraid I cannot post your article as it is because in my view it is not sufficiently relevant to Islam for the purposes of this newsgroup. The moderators are preparing a weekly report on rejected posts, which will contain the title (edited if it is obscene), author name, email address, and reason for rejection for any post whose author wants it included. Readers may then email the author directly if they would like to see the post. If you would like to have your post included in this report, please let me know. Thank you for your contribution to SRI. Your involvement is very important and makes the newsgroup worth reading. Please do not let this note discourage you. Ahmad Hashem [Interim moderator] ------- Start of forwarded message ------- To: soc-religion-islam@agate.berkeley.edu Path: not-for-mail From: FG@hotmail.com Newsgroups: alt.religion.islam,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.religion.islam Subject: Re: Appeal to borthers and sisters to vote YES on talk.religion.bahai Date: 15 Mar 1997 11:38:47 GMT Organization: Reference.Com Posting Service Lines: 114 References: <857854775.23137@dejanews.com> Nntp-Posting-Host: shadowfax.reference.com Cc: afshin.afrashteh@utoronto.ca Originator: panuser@reference.com () Mr. Afrashteh: Since there's been a campaign to defeat talk.religion.bahai, I thought you might be interested in seeing the evidence. This appeal for NO votes was apparently posted recently to the Bahai woman's discussion listserv. >Mark Towfiq (towfiq@justice.medford.ma.us) wrote: >Subject: RE: Pointer: CFV talk.religion.bahai >Dear friends, a situation which has been developing over the past few >months has finally come to a head. > >As many of you may already know, the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup >was created in the Holy Year (1992) to serve as a forum for the >Friends to discuss the Faith on USENET and a non-threatening >place for people investigating the Baha'i Faith to ask questions >and receive answers. As part of its creation, we decided that >it should be moderated, and that the Charter should spell out >very clearly what were unacceptable types of postings. Among >such unacceptable postings were deemed personal insults and >attacks on individuals and religious institutions. >Later last year, the Charter was made more explicit to exclude >postings which undermine the Covenant. The newsgroup has been >moderated by a set of Baha'is since its inception who, in my >opinion, have applied the Charter and Baha'i principles to a >high degree of fairness, and have maintained a rather good tone >and environment. We have received numerous compliments about >this over the years. > >Recently, an individual, Frederick Glaysher (I do not know if >he is a Baha'i or not), I have been a member of the Bahai Faith for over 20 years. >has accused the moderators of >soc.religion.bahai of "censorship", claiming that they will not >allow his point of view to be posted there. I am not the only person to accuse, quitely accurately, the "moderators" of censorship. Several people have. Read the discussion on news.groups >As a result, he >has asked for the creation of a new, unmoderated forum, called >talk.religion.bahai. The postings which Mr. Glaysher complains >about were all rejected on the basis of tone; he wanted to >post open insults and sarcasm, Where in the Bahai Writings does it state, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! An incisive literary tool for dealing with tyrants in all ages of human history.... Despots have always feared it.... >and the moderators >asked him to re-phrase his postings. "Self-censor" would be more like it.... >He refused, and claimed >he was being censored, and embarked upon this campaign to >create a new newsgroup. I would call it a campaign for human freedom of religious conscience and dignity against fanatics and extremists in the Bahai Faith like Mark Towfiq.... >Dear Friends, if this new newsgroup is created, in my opinion >it will cause great confusion; there will now be two, almost >identical fora to discuss the Faith, but one of them will allow >any sorts of postings, including postings from Covenant-breakers. >Besides this fact, such a newsgroup is not necessary, as there >exist plenty of open forums on USENET (such as >talk.relgion.misc) where Mr. Glaysher may post his opinions >"freely". The points of the foregoing paragraph have been discussed fully over the past weeks. See news.groups.... > >HOW TO VOTE NO: Send email to: jjd@primenet.com > >With the only text of the message being: > > I vote NO on talk.religion.bahai > It's widely considered on USEnet unethical to vote NO when 100 or more people wish to form a newsgroup on any subject. To vote NO for ideological reasons, here clearly religious reasons, would be a disgrace to the Bahai Faith. Are you, Mr. Towfiq, trying to prove to the world the Bahai Faith is full of ignorant fanatics? You're doing a good job of it. >I would be happy to provide further information or >answer any questions about this matter. > >Regards, >Mark Towfiq > > Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -- Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. ------- End of forwarded message ------- From - Tue Feb 04 09:06:49 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32F74279.4A3E@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:06:49 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com Subject: [Fwd: Censorship Re: Some Thoughts] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------336A56AA30D" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 3356 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------336A56AA30D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please post to s.r.b. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------336A56AA30D Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.38) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:22:21 -0500 Message-ID: <32F739CB.402D@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:29:47 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: Censorship Re: Some Thoughts References: <"rrwi9B.A.QyF.YO-8y"@bounty> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sen McGlinn wrote: > > [clip] > Kavian, > I think you are confusing two quite different things here. > Submissions to journals everywhere are selected in some way. This is > not what Dr Cole is referring to. As you must be aware, most Baha'i > journals are then required to submit the material they have selected > on academic and quality criteria to a review panel of the National > Spiritual Assembly who then vet it again on their own criteria > (which are usually not specified). So, with my publisher's hat on > for the moment, I got some materials for a collection of essays on > Baha'i theology. I rejected some, reworked others in consultation > with the authors, and eventually sent my selection off for the > National Assembly's review. They reply (eventually) saying that 6 > are acceptable and 3 are not. Wipe out 33% of my investment. No > reason, no consultation, no indication of the criteria. And not > accidentally, two of those three were the best papers in the book, > papers which didn't nibble around the edges but took big bites, > conceptually interesting and challenging papers, with a thorough > grounding in history, in one case, and in the texts in the other. > This is the 'review' to which writers and academics and publishers > object. It acts as a deliberate brake on intellectual development, > to prevent ideas which are too far ahead of current understandings > seeing the light. Thank God, it doesn't work - writers just go > around it. That doesn't make it smell any nicer. > > I participate as a reviewer for Baha'i studies journals, but I do > not participate in the later kind of 'review' (but I am not pointing > the finger at those who do). The two systems are quite distinct. This > is one good reason for dropping the euphemism of 'review' and calling > the later system censorship - It seems to be extended to email and newsgroup discussion.... review sounds to the layman like > something that gets written after publication, and to the academic > it sounds like the sort of material selection system which journals > have to raise their *academic* standards. > > Sen > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sen McGlinn Sen.McGlinn@Bahai.NL > *** -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------336A56AA30D-- From - Tue Feb 04 09:28:40 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.37) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:59:21 -0500 Message-ID: <32F74279.4A3E@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:06:49 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com Subject: [Fwd: Censorship Re: Some Thoughts] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------336A56AA30D" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 3354 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------336A56AA30D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please post to s.r.b. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------336A56AA30D Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.38) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:22:21 -0500 Message-ID: <32F739CB.402D@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:29:47 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: Censorship Re: Some Thoughts References: <"rrwi9B.A.QyF.YO-8y"@bounty> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sen McGlinn wrote: > > [clip] > Kavian, > I think you are confusing two quite different things here. > Submissions to journals everywhere are selected in some way. This is > not what Dr Cole is referring to. As you must be aware, most Baha'i > journals are then required to submit the material they have selected > on academic and quality criteria to a review panel of the National > Spiritual Assembly who then vet it again on their own criteria > (which are usually not specified). So, with my publisher's hat on > for the moment, I got some materials for a collection of essays on > Baha'i theology. I rejected some, reworked others in consultation > with the authors, and eventually sent my selection off for the > National Assembly's review. They reply (eventually) saying that 6 > are acceptable and 3 are not. Wipe out 33% of my investment. No > reason, no consultation, no indication of the criteria. And not > accidentally, two of those three were the best papers in the book, > papers which didn't nibble around the edges but took big bites, > conceptually interesting and challenging papers, with a thorough > grounding in history, in one case, and in the texts in the other. > This is the 'review' to which writers and academics and publishers > object. It acts as a deliberate brake on intellectual development, > to prevent ideas which are too far ahead of current understandings > seeing the light. Thank God, it doesn't work - writers just go > around it. That doesn't make it smell any nicer. > > I participate as a reviewer for Baha'i studies journals, but I do > not participate in the later kind of 'review' (but I am not pointing > the finger at those who do). The two systems are quite distinct. This > is one good reason for dropping the euphemism of 'review' and calling > the later system censorship - It seems to be extended to email and newsgroup discussion.... review sounds to the layman like > something that gets written after publication, and to the academic > it sounds like the sort of material selection system which journals > have to raise their *academic* standards. > > Sen > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sen McGlinn Sen.McGlinn@Bahai.NL > *** -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------336A56AA30D-- From - Tue Feb 04 05:36:52 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.52) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 05:10:55 -0500 Message-ID: <32F70CED.1831@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 05:18:21 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cbstone@phoenix.Princeton.edu Subject: [Fwd: CFV for talk.religion.bahai--questionnaire] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------238A298331C7" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5740 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------238A298331C7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I emailed this questionnaire yesterday afternoon. I hope I did right. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------238A298331C7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.67) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 03 Feb 1997 19:25:26 -0500 Message-ID: <32F683B1.19EC@moa.net> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 19:32:49 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: contact@uvv.org CC: bill@netagw.com Subject: CFV for talk.religion.bahai--questionnaire Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ATTN: Bill Aten RFD: talk.religion.bahai I have participated in the required RFD discussion. No changes have been made in the text of the RFD. Response to the RFD usually fell into two categories, for and against. One person hadn't made up his mind. Several respondents were against the creation of an unmoderated newsgroup simply because it was either about a religion, and people always disagree about religion, or because it was unmoderated and would lead to flame wars. I responded that because people do disagree, from time to time, that alone is no valid reason for opposing the creation of an unmoderated forum. I emphasized that people must be responsible for the expression of their own ideas in a respectful fashion. I pointed out that I believe Soc.religion.bahai is heavily censored. My motive for proposing this group is to prevent others from squelching the expression of free religious conscience and belief. I don't advocate flame wars, nor do I advocate censorship. While there may be times in which individuals will go too far, they will at least have the opportunity to express their opinions. Others will have the opportunity to hear them, learn from them, disagree, tell them why, and so. To me, it seems the essence of human communication. Much discussion revolved around the issue to Bahais of covenant breakers, i.e., people who have been declared so by the Bahai administration. Soc.religion.bahai is moderated and apparently bans these people from posting to it. The concern was that without a moderator, who would ban them? To me this issue is not a valid one for preventing the creation of an unmoderated newsgroup on the Bahai Faith. I suggested repeatedly that someone can speak up and tell them they're wrong or someone in the Bahai administration appointed to that role can. That seems reasonable to me, Bahai terms. Insisting that only moderated or censored newsgroups are appropriate to the Bahai Faith seems to miss the freedom of the human conscience most religions respect. Others felt there are too many newsgroups now or Bahais should use soc.religion.misc for unmoderated discussion. Neither holds water in my opinion because talk.religion.bahai would serve a real need for the internet community, Bahai or not, and soc.religion.misc is just too miscellaneous and not focused on the Bahai Faith, which is what I'm suggesting. A few people wanted examples of censorship on soc.religion.bahai, so I've posted about twenty on news.groups. No one suggested changes in the RFD. Discussion has all been around the above issues. Several people supported it as much needed and offering Bahais some place else to post to than the moderated newgroup soc.religion.bahai. Others seemed to agree that censorship exists on soc.religion.bahai. talk.religion.bahai unmoderated Proponent: Frederick Glaysher @MOA.net OR FG@hotmail.com Mentor: Christopher Stone cbstone@phoenix.Princeton.EDU CFV DISTRIBUTION: Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,soc.religion.bahai, soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.israel,soc.rights.human, talk.religion.misc I believe they are all moderated except the last one. Pointers will appear in the following newsgroups: soc.religion.unitarian-univ,soc.religion.eastern,soc.religion.gnosis, soc.religion.hindu,soc.religion.paganism,soc.religion.quaker, soc.religion.sikhism,soc.religion.vaishnava,soc.atheism, talk.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.newage and the following mailing lists: Talisman@umich.edu Subscribe via: jsgreen@umich.edu List honors Reply-To: headers yes List allows non-members to post messages yes Irfan@umich.edu Subscribe via" jrcole@umich.edu List honors Reply-To: headers yes List allows non-members to post messages yes CHARTER & RATIONALE: Talk.Religion.Bahai All newsgroups given to the discussion of the Bahai Faith are moderated. A need for an unmoderated forum exists. This proposed newsgroup would meet that need. All topics or ideas relevant to the Bahai Faith, its history, teachings, theology, and so on would be appropriate areas for discussion. -------------------- [I hope I've done this right. I'm not exactly high tech! Figuring out the timing has been tough too. I hope I'm not too late getting this in to you.] -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA @MOA.net OR FG@hotmail.com --------------238A298331C7-- From - Tue Feb 04 05:37:00 1997 Received: from lists.Princeton.EDU (128.112.129.249) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 05:27:32 -0500 Received: from ponyexpress.Princeton.EDU ([128.112.129.131]) by lists.Princeton.EDU with ESMTP id <370057.s2-2>; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 05:22:50 -0500 Return-Path: cbstone@phoenix.Princeton.EDU Received: from yuma.Princeton.EDU (yuma.Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.14]) by ponyexpress.Princeton.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA25992 for <@moa.net>; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 05:22:42 -0500 Received: from localhost (cbstone@localhost) by yuma.Princeton.EDU (SMI-8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id FAA21823 for <@moa.net>; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 05:22:41 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: yuma.Princeton.EDU: cbstone owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 05:22:41 -0500 (EST) From:Christopher Stone To:Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Subject: Re: [Fwd: CFV for talk.religion.bahai--questionnaire] In-Reply-To: <32F70CED.1831@moa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 190 The charter and rationale should be identical to thoise in RFD, assuming you have not chosen to change them in minor ways. Your description of the discussion process of the RFD is good. From - Tue Feb 04 06:07:19 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.52) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 05:31:49 -0500 Message-ID: <32F711D6.A50@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 05:39:18 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christopher Stone Subject: Re: [Fwd: CFV for talk.religion.bahai--questionnaire] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 316 Christopher Stone wrote: > > The charter and rationale should be identical to thoise in RFD, assuming > you have not chosen to change them in minor ways. Your description of the > discussion process of the RFD is good. Thanks! And good morning.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 04 09:28:31 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.37) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:58:06 -0500 Message-ID: <32F7422C.6DA3@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:05:32 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: (Fwd) Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1938272A1B20" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 7485 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1938272A1B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please post to s.r.b. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------1938272A1B20 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.45) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 07:33:58 -0500 Message-ID: <32F72E70.6573@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 07:41:20 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: Re: (Fwd) Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion References: <199701311619.LAA18997@gimantis.rs.itd.umich.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Juan R. I. Cole wrote: > > Bill Collins wrote: [clip] > Now, if you heard that the Dalai Lama had threatened to excommunicate the > editors of *Tricycle* for daring have a magazine not under his direct > control, which even suggested things might be better run in Buddhism, then > you would conclude that the Dalai Lama was acting in an authoritarian manner > and was a control freak. As to the Baha'i authorities, everyone can decide > for themselves. Please note that Dialogue magazine does not exist, since > the editors were heartbroken at their public denunciation and closed it, and > that nothing else like it exists, and that the major Baha'i periodical in > the U.S. is still The American Baha'i. > And an unreadable propaganda rag at that.... > When a prominent Baha'i academic started the talisman@indiana.edu > listserv discussion group, the Baha'i authorities again intervened. > This time the charge was not merely "negative campaigning," but > "making statements contrary to the covenant." I am unaware that > either "negative campaigning" or "making statements contrary to the > covenant" are crimes that could be found specified in Baha'i > scripture, but when needed such charges seem to be at hand and are > used to intimidate, silence or chase away any Baha'i who dares set up > a medium of communication not under the close supervision of the > Baha'i authorities. > The CFV (Call For Votes) should be out soon for talk.religion.bahai.... > As a result of these false and outrageous charges, > talisman@indiana.edu no longer exists, just as *Dialogue* no longer > exists. Indeed, several of those associated with Dialogue, who had > devoted thousands of dollars and man-hours to this enterprise for the > sake of the Baha'i faith, have now either been chased out of the > religion or silenced, as a reward for their efforts. > > Please name me another religion that has threatened its own > academics with the most extreme sanctions merely for posting e-mail > messages. Scientology? As to the ridiculous charge of libel, *none* of these > messages so much as mentioned the *name* of any Baha'i official in a > negative light. Some Talisman logs are up at > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/talisman.htm ; see for > yourself. None of the messages challenged the legitimate authority > of the Baha'i institutions in any way. Name me another religion in > which the highest authorities have consistently acted to blunt the > independent intellectual life of the community, Jim Jones' Kool-Aid Cult, Aum Sinryuku, Bagwansaresh, etc.... such that merely by > virtue of their being elected to high religious office, officials > suddenly claim the right to tell academics how to write history, > sociology, and religious studies. >Consultation is a hallmark of the > Faith, and >many of us who are authors and committed Baha'is have no > difficulty with >following a procedure which has never, in our > experience, resulted in >any actual "censorship" of our work - even > where we questioned a >commonly-held view among the faithful. > > Works by Baha'is' have been censored and things taken out. Marzieh Gail's > translation of the memoirs of Muhammad-`Ali Salmani was censored by the > Research Department at the Baha'i World Center, and a number of passages > were ordered suppressed. (This is rather like the Vatican ordering passages > taken out of the Gospel of Mark.) And, of course, no one has seen in print > the article slated for publication in *Dialogue* entitled a "Modest > Proposal." And a paper on the possibility of women's service on the > Universal House of Justice was banned from circulation or publication. The > purpose of "literature review" is selective. It is not to censor > everything, but only things seen as important by the authorities. > Examples of censored postings may be found at news.groups.... > >The indiscrimate painting of honest, upright and thoughtful people with > >the fundamentalist label is a hideous parody of the real problems > >involved in the betrayal of religious principles. It is also absolutely > >guaranteed to offend those against whom it is directed. > > Let's just review the evidence. I was criticized by the counsellor who > questioned me on behalf of the highest Baha'i authorities for speaking > about Baha'u'llah as though he were a historical figure. I was criticized > for insisting that Baha'i texts had to be contextualized in their time and > place in order to be properly understood. I was criticized for suggesting > that where science and religion conflict, science should take precedence. > All of these critiques of my position, which were part of the prologue to my > having been declared by the counsellors to have "made statements contrary to > the covenant" have an underlying fundamentalist logic. > > What really hurts me, and I suppose my anger is still visible, is that the > core principles of the Baha'i holy figures are so beautiful, that there are > so many good, kind-hearted, and upright Baha'is out there working against > prejudice and for the unity of humankind, that such bright possibilities > existed for the religion. But it has been derailed by a handful of > authoritarians who happen to have gotten into high office, and who > consistently and accross the board set policies that punish individual > initiative. Thus, Baha'is have no large-circulation magazine in the U.S. > comparable to *Tricycle* for Buddhism, which is what *Dialogue* could have > become. They have very little intellectual life or culture. There is > nothing attractive for most of the Baby Boomers who joined in the 60s and > 70s, and most of them have therefore gone right back out. You can have > tight control, or you can have growth and efflorescence. You can't have > both. The Baha'i authorities in the U.S. have opted for tight control, and > are now tightening it further with this silly doctrine that covenant > breaking is not just a matter of schism, but refers to disagreeing publicly > with the religion's officials. > > I'm sorry to see it happen, and even more sorry to see old friends of whom I > had thought so well support it. > > Sincerely, > > Juan R. I. Cole > Professor > Department of History > University of Michigan Oh human folly! -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------1938272A1B20-- From - Tue Feb 04 09:05:32 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32F7422C.6DA3@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:05:32 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: (Fwd) Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1938272A1B20" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 7487 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1938272A1B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please post to s.r.b. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------1938272A1B20 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.45) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 07:33:58 -0500 Message-ID: <32F72E70.6573@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 07:41:20 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: Re: (Fwd) Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion References: <199701311619.LAA18997@gimantis.rs.itd.umich.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Juan R. I. Cole wrote: > > Bill Collins wrote: [clip] > Now, if you heard that the Dalai Lama had threatened to excommunicate the > editors of *Tricycle* for daring have a magazine not under his direct > control, which even suggested things might be better run in Buddhism, then > you would conclude that the Dalai Lama was acting in an authoritarian manner > and was a control freak. As to the Baha'i authorities, everyone can decide > for themselves. Please note that Dialogue magazine does not exist, since > the editors were heartbroken at their public denunciation and closed it, and > that nothing else like it exists, and that the major Baha'i periodical in > the U.S. is still The American Baha'i. > And an unreadable propaganda rag at that.... > When a prominent Baha'i academic started the talisman@indiana.edu > listserv discussion group, the Baha'i authorities again intervened. > This time the charge was not merely "negative campaigning," but > "making statements contrary to the covenant." I am unaware that > either "negative campaigning" or "making statements contrary to the > covenant" are crimes that could be found specified in Baha'i > scripture, but when needed such charges seem to be at hand and are > used to intimidate, silence or chase away any Baha'i who dares set up > a medium of communication not under the close supervision of the > Baha'i authorities. > The CFV (Call For Votes) should be out soon for talk.religion.bahai.... > As a result of these false and outrageous charges, > talisman@indiana.edu no longer exists, just as *Dialogue* no longer > exists. Indeed, several of those associated with Dialogue, who had > devoted thousands of dollars and man-hours to this enterprise for the > sake of the Baha'i faith, have now either been chased out of the > religion or silenced, as a reward for their efforts. > > Please name me another religion that has threatened its own > academics with the most extreme sanctions merely for posting e-mail > messages. Scientology? As to the ridiculous charge of libel, *none* of these > messages so much as mentioned the *name* of any Baha'i official in a > negative light. Some Talisman logs are up at > https://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/talisman.htm ; see for > yourself. None of the messages challenged the legitimate authority > of the Baha'i institutions in any way. Name me another religion in > which the highest authorities have consistently acted to blunt the > independent intellectual life of the community, Jim Jones' Kool-Aid Cult, Aum Sinryuku, Bagwansaresh, etc.... such that merely by > virtue of their being elected to high religious office, officials > suddenly claim the right to tell academics how to write history, > sociology, and religious studies. >Consultation is a hallmark of the > Faith, and >many of us who are authors and committed Baha'is have no > difficulty with >following a procedure which has never, in our > experience, resulted in >any actual "censorship" of our work - even > where we questioned a >commonly-held view among the faithful. > > Works by Baha'is' have been censored and things taken out. Marzieh Gail's > translation of the memoirs of Muhammad-`Ali Salmani was censored by the > Research Department at the Baha'i World Center, and a number of passages > were ordered suppressed. (This is rather like the Vatican ordering passages > taken out of the Gospel of Mark.) And, of course, no one has seen in print > the article slated for publication in *Dialogue* entitled a "Modest > Proposal." And a paper on the possibility of women's service on the > Universal House of Justice was banned from circulation or publication. The > purpose of "literature review" is selective. It is not to censor > everything, but only things seen as important by the authorities. > Examples of censored postings may be found at news.groups.... > >The indiscrimate painting of honest, upright and thoughtful people with > >the fundamentalist label is a hideous parody of the real problems > >involved in the betrayal of religious principles. It is also absolutely > >guaranteed to offend those against whom it is directed. > > Let's just review the evidence. I was criticized by the counsellor who > questioned me on behalf of the highest Baha'i authorities for speaking > about Baha'u'llah as though he were a historical figure. I was criticized > for insisting that Baha'i texts had to be contextualized in their time and > place in order to be properly understood. I was criticized for suggesting > that where science and religion conflict, science should take precedence. > All of these critiques of my position, which were part of the prologue to my > having been declared by the counsellors to have "made statements contrary to > the covenant" have an underlying fundamentalist logic. > > What really hurts me, and I suppose my anger is still visible, is that the > core principles of the Baha'i holy figures are so beautiful, that there are > so many good, kind-hearted, and upright Baha'is out there working against > prejudice and for the unity of humankind, that such bright possibilities > existed for the religion. But it has been derailed by a handful of > authoritarians who happen to have gotten into high office, and who > consistently and accross the board set policies that punish individual > initiative. Thus, Baha'is have no large-circulation magazine in the U.S. > comparable to *Tricycle* for Buddhism, which is what *Dialogue* could have > become. They have very little intellectual life or culture. There is > nothing attractive for most of the Baby Boomers who joined in the 60s and > 70s, and most of them have therefore gone right back out. You can have > tight control, or you can have growth and efflorescence. You can't have > both. The Baha'i authorities in the U.S. have opted for tight control, and > are now tightening it further with this silly doctrine that covenant > breaking is not just a matter of schism, but refers to disagreeing publicly > with the religion's officials. > > I'm sorry to see it happen, and even more sorry to see old friends of whom I > had thought so well support it. > > Sincerely, > > Juan R. I. Cole > Professor > Department of History > University of Michigan Oh human folly! -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------1938272A1B20-- From - Tue Feb 04 09:28:36 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.37) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:58:46 -0500 Message-ID: <32F74255.457A@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:06:13 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: (Fwd) Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1B3F29C22AA5" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6170 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1B3F29C22AA5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please post to s.r.b. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------1B3F29C22AA5 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.45) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:06:56 -0500 Message-ID: <32F7362B.696F@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:14:19 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups CC: sen.mcglinn@bahai.nl Subject: Re: (Fwd) Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion References: <"Umc7c.A.A8E.dxr9y"@bounty> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sen McGlinn wrote: > [clip] > > I won't cite it all or deal with it point-by-point, but some things > were striking. Steve justifies review as saving the resources of the > Faith - but it is applied to *stop* those publishers who are willing > to put up their own money from publishing some things. He says that > it stops things being called 'Baha'i literature', but the opposite > is the case: things which have passed review - however appaling in > quality - are known as Baha'i literature, others are by definition > not. Steve points to the free speech which members of LSA and NSAs > have within those bodies in dealing with administrative matters, as > if this could be a substitute for free speech for academics or > freedom for Baha'i publishers to publish the scriptures, > translations and basic historical documents of the Faith. He points > to the fact that the Baha'i administrative members are elected for > short terms (1 year), but this is hardly relevant in the US, which > Juan was speaking of, since the eligible members of the National > Spiritual Assembly of the US (i.e., those not retiring for some > reason) have been reelected with 100% success rate for donkey's > years. As have the members of the Universal House of Justice. Thus > while the Baha'i Administration is formally elective, it actually has > a character resembling a village-elder system (once you are on, > there's very little chance you will ever get off). Maybe that's the > way it is intended to be - I suspect so. But whether you think it > should be that way or that this is a sign of some sort of > malfunction, it clearly is not a system in which the possibility of > not being re-elected can (or should?) have any effect on 'the > motivations of elected officials". Steve suggests that the effort put > into "dialogue" magazine could have been better spent on fulfilling > the goals of the Plan, and asks what anyone could do with a journal > that could not "have been done through already existing publications > and through the elected Institutions." But one of the goals of the > Plan at that time was something like a 'massive expansion of Baha'i > literature', and the Universal House of Justice was actively > supporting the establishment of independent Baha'i publishers and had > specifically included dialogue in this. Most of these, and > subsequent, efforts have failed, simply because the review policy > sets up a situation in which sooner or later the publisher and the > National Assembly will come into bitter conflict, and there can ony > be one loser then. Large -scale expansion of the Faith can hardly be > achieved without the development of its intellectual life, for which > scholarship and the organs to publish it and forums for well-ground > discussion of issues are essential. It is not a viable option to put > off the development of the life of the mind because we are too busy > teaching. For the teaching to be effective it has to be informed, for > the community to be attractive it has to have a vigorous intellectual > life. Dialogue was doing exactly what it ought to have been doing at > that time (no email, remember - a journal was the only way to deliver > the vitamins the body needed) and it was doing it how it was supposed > to - i.e., it submitted all its articles to the National Assembly for > checking (and had a fair few rejected, as I did in my project). Its > failure, and many many failures, are not due in my view to Juan's > "handful of authoritarians" (tch tch, conspiracy theories Juan??) but > rather to bad policy. Which is still in place, but fortunately less > burdensome in the days of email. > > Well, I'm only halfway down your post, but I will leave the rest. I > have the distinct impression that Baha'is as a whole are unaware of > how the censorship review system works, and how publishing in the > Baha'i framework works. For examples of censored email messages see my postings to news.groups. Not a few have expressed surprise to me that > there *was* such a system, while others - as we saw on srb a while > ago - would like to see a system in which the National Assemblies > first decide what the "Baha'i view" is and then get someone to write > it. In between these it's hard to have a well-informed discussion. > It really only affects writers and publishers in an immediate and > financial way, so it is hard to explain the concerns to others. > > sigh > > Sen > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sen McGlinn Sen.McGlinn@Bahai.NL > *** > Let the friends recall and ever bear in mind > the repeated exhortations and glowing promises of our beloved Master > with reference to the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar, > the crowning institution in every Baha'i community. > > (Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, page 108) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------1B3F29C22AA5-- From - Tue Feb 04 09:06:13 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32F74255.457A@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:06:13 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: (Fwd) Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1B3F29C22AA5" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6172 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1B3F29C22AA5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please post to s.r.b. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------1B3F29C22AA5 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.45) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:06:56 -0500 Message-ID: <32F7362B.696F@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:14:19 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups CC: sen.mcglinn@bahai.nl Subject: Re: (Fwd) Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion References: <"Umc7c.A.A8E.dxr9y"@bounty> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sen McGlinn wrote: > [clip] > > I won't cite it all or deal with it point-by-point, but some things > were striking. Steve justifies review as saving the resources of the > Faith - but it is applied to *stop* those publishers who are willing > to put up their own money from publishing some things. He says that > it stops things being called 'Baha'i literature', but the opposite > is the case: things which have passed review - however appaling in > quality - are known as Baha'i literature, others are by definition > not. Steve points to the free speech which members of LSA and NSAs > have within those bodies in dealing with administrative matters, as > if this could be a substitute for free speech for academics or > freedom for Baha'i publishers to publish the scriptures, > translations and basic historical documents of the Faith. He points > to the fact that the Baha'i administrative members are elected for > short terms (1 year), but this is hardly relevant in the US, which > Juan was speaking of, since the eligible members of the National > Spiritual Assembly of the US (i.e., those not retiring for some > reason) have been reelected with 100% success rate for donkey's > years. As have the members of the Universal House of Justice. Thus > while the Baha'i Administration is formally elective, it actually has > a character resembling a village-elder system (once you are on, > there's very little chance you will ever get off). Maybe that's the > way it is intended to be - I suspect so. But whether you think it > should be that way or that this is a sign of some sort of > malfunction, it clearly is not a system in which the possibility of > not being re-elected can (or should?) have any effect on 'the > motivations of elected officials". Steve suggests that the effort put > into "dialogue" magazine could have been better spent on fulfilling > the goals of the Plan, and asks what anyone could do with a journal > that could not "have been done through already existing publications > and through the elected Institutions." But one of the goals of the > Plan at that time was something like a 'massive expansion of Baha'i > literature', and the Universal House of Justice was actively > supporting the establishment of independent Baha'i publishers and had > specifically included dialogue in this. Most of these, and > subsequent, efforts have failed, simply because the review policy > sets up a situation in which sooner or later the publisher and the > National Assembly will come into bitter conflict, and there can ony > be one loser then. Large -scale expansion of the Faith can hardly be > achieved without the development of its intellectual life, for which > scholarship and the organs to publish it and forums for well-ground > discussion of issues are essential. It is not a viable option to put > off the development of the life of the mind because we are too busy > teaching. For the teaching to be effective it has to be informed, for > the community to be attractive it has to have a vigorous intellectual > life. Dialogue was doing exactly what it ought to have been doing at > that time (no email, remember - a journal was the only way to deliver > the vitamins the body needed) and it was doing it how it was supposed > to - i.e., it submitted all its articles to the National Assembly for > checking (and had a fair few rejected, as I did in my project). Its > failure, and many many failures, are not due in my view to Juan's > "handful of authoritarians" (tch tch, conspiracy theories Juan??) but > rather to bad policy. Which is still in place, but fortunately less > burdensome in the days of email. > > Well, I'm only halfway down your post, but I will leave the rest. I > have the distinct impression that Baha'is as a whole are unaware of > how the censorship review system works, and how publishing in the > Baha'i framework works. For examples of censored email messages see my postings to news.groups. Not a few have expressed surprise to me that > there *was* such a system, while others - as we saw on srb a while > ago - would like to see a system in which the National Assemblies > first decide what the "Baha'i view" is and then get someone to write > it. In between these it's hard to have a well-informed discussion. > It really only affects writers and publishers in an immediate and > financial way, so it is hard to explain the concerns to others. > > sigh > > Sen > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sen McGlinn Sen.McGlinn@Bahai.NL > *** > Let the friends recall and ever bear in mind > the repeated exhortations and glowing promises of our beloved Master > with reference to the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar, > the crowning institution in every Baha'i community. > > (Shoghi Effendi, Baha'i Administration, page 108) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------1B3F29C22AA5-- From - Thu Apr 10 08:17:56 1997 >From jgoldberg@megsinet.net Wed Mar 19 20:24:25 1997 Received: from ns.megsinet.net ([208.150.38.138]) by megspo1.megsinet.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11704) with SMTP id AAA141 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 22:23:52 -0600 Message-ID: <3330B912.72E3@megsinet.net> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 22:12:02 -0600 From: jgoldberg@megsinet.net (Jeffrey Goldberg) Reply-To: jgoldberg@megsinet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: [Fwd: Re: 2nd CFV: talk.religion.bahai] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1062 Return-Path: Received: from usr10.primenet.com ([206.165.5.110]) by megspo1.megsinet.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11704) with ESMTP id AAA162 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 22:12:29 -0600 Received: from usr10.primenet.com (jjd@usr10.primenet.com [206.165.5.110]) by usr10.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA13251 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 21:13:00 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 21:13:00 -0700 (MST) From: Jim Davis Reply-To: Jim Davis To: Jeffrey Goldberg Subject: Re: 2nd CFV: talk.religion.bahai In-Reply-To: <3330B543.6DB6@megsinet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Jeffrey Goldberg wrote: > I voted yes but never received an acknowledgement I have your 'yes' vote recorded. I don't know why you didn't get an ack, but I do have your vote. From - Wed Apr 09 08:20:26 1997 >From jgoldberg@megsinet.net Wed Mar 19 20:24:25 1997 Received: from ns.megsinet.net ([208.150.38.138]) by megspo1.megsinet.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11704) with SMTP id AAA141 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 22:23:52 -0600 Message-ID: <3330B912.72E3@megsinet.net> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 22:12:02 -0600 From: jgoldberg@megsinet.net (Jeffrey Goldberg) Reply-To: jgoldberg@megsinet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: [Fwd: Re: 2nd CFV: talk.religion.bahai] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 1062 Return-Path: Received: from usr10.primenet.com ([206.165.5.110]) by megspo1.megsinet.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11704) with ESMTP id AAA162 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 22:12:29 -0600 Received: from usr10.primenet.com (jjd@usr10.primenet.com [206.165.5.110]) by usr10.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA13251 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 21:13:00 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 21:13:00 -0700 (MST) From: Jim Davis Reply-To: Jim Davis To: Jeffrey Goldberg Subject: Re: 2nd CFV: talk.religion.bahai In-Reply-To: <3330B543.6DB6@megsinet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 19 Mar 1997, Jeffrey Goldberg wrote: > I voted yes but never received an acknowledgement I have your 'yes' vote recorded. I don't know why you didn't get an ack, but I do have your vote. From - Tue Feb 04 09:07:21 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32F74299.6157@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:07:21 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------63A03A1A6A35" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 3444 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------63A03A1A6A35 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please post to s.r.b. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------63A03A1A6A35 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.37) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:53:46 -0500 Message-ID: <32F74128.635D@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:01:12 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion References: <"3IcAs.A.lRF.sMs9y"@bounty> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan Maneck wrote: > > On Feb. 1 I had written: > > > The "Dialogue" affair was very complicated. The National Spiritual > > Assembly was disturbed by the editorial line of that magazine, > > which they apparently saw as muckraking, but the Universal House of > > Justice had affirmed it's right to exist. However, the magazine was > > scrutinized very carefully. At one point an article proposing > > certain changes in the Baha'i electorial system was written and sent > > out to a number of people apparently with the intention of getting > > their feedback prior to publication. The article was entitled "A > > Modest Proposal." (Aa rather mischievous title to anyone who knows > > their British and Irish history.) As it happened some delegates to > > the National Convention had received copies. The NSA believed that > > the people behind Dialogue were somehow using this article for > > electioneering purposes. > > I have since been in contact with the former editor of Dialogue who > assures me that only two delegates received a copy of "A Modest > Proposal." These two delegates were served on the > editorial board of Dialogue and it was in that capacity that the > copies were sent for their review. Apparently the National Spritiual > Assembly got the mistaken impression that "dozens and dozens" of > copies of this had been distributed to delegates prior to the > National Convention. As I had attempted to convey in my original > posting I do not think there is any reason to believe that anyone on > the Dialogue staff was engaging in electioneering of any sort. I > apologize if this post might have led anyone to think that this was > the case. As you can see there have been a long series of terrible > misunderstandings which led to unfoldment of these sorry events, many > of which are difficult to untangle now. My hope is that we will all > set aside our suspicions toward everyone involved on both sides of > this issue for the sake of our love for Baha'u'llah and recognize > that we all seek to serve Him in the best way we can. > > Susan It doesn't change the fact that Dialogue was suppressed.... I was a subscriber, though largely appalled at the low intellectual level and crude journalism, and felt they were at least making attempts to develop some kind of thoughtful discussion in the Bahai Faith. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------63A03A1A6A35-- From - Tue Feb 04 09:28:42 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.37) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:59:53 -0500 Message-ID: <32F74299.6157@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:07:21 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------63A03A1A6A35" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 3444 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------63A03A1A6A35 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please post to s.r.b. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------63A03A1A6A35 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.37) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:53:46 -0500 Message-ID: <32F74128.635D@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:01:12 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion References: <"3IcAs.A.lRF.sMs9y"@bounty> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan Maneck wrote: > > On Feb. 1 I had written: > > > The "Dialogue" affair was very complicated. The National Spiritual > > Assembly was disturbed by the editorial line of that magazine, > > which they apparently saw as muckraking, but the Universal House of > > Justice had affirmed it's right to exist. However, the magazine was > > scrutinized very carefully. At one point an article proposing > > certain changes in the Baha'i electorial system was written and sent > > out to a number of people apparently with the intention of getting > > their feedback prior to publication. The article was entitled "A > > Modest Proposal." (Aa rather mischievous title to anyone who knows > > their British and Irish history.) As it happened some delegates to > > the National Convention had received copies. The NSA believed that > > the people behind Dialogue were somehow using this article for > > electioneering purposes. > > I have since been in contact with the former editor of Dialogue who > assures me that only two delegates received a copy of "A Modest > Proposal." These two delegates were served on the > editorial board of Dialogue and it was in that capacity that the > copies were sent for their review. Apparently the National Spritiual > Assembly got the mistaken impression that "dozens and dozens" of > copies of this had been distributed to delegates prior to the > National Convention. As I had attempted to convey in my original > posting I do not think there is any reason to believe that anyone on > the Dialogue staff was engaging in electioneering of any sort. I > apologize if this post might have led anyone to think that this was > the case. As you can see there have been a long series of terrible > misunderstandings which led to unfoldment of these sorry events, many > of which are difficult to untangle now. My hope is that we will all > set aside our suspicions toward everyone involved on both sides of > this issue for the sake of our love for Baha'u'llah and recognize > that we all seek to serve Him in the best way we can. > > Susan It doesn't change the fact that Dialogue was suppressed.... I was a subscriber, though largely appalled at the low intellectual level and crude journalism, and felt they were at least making attempts to develop some kind of thoughtful discussion in the Bahai Faith. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------63A03A1A6A35-- From - Sat Feb 01 17:45:52 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.54) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 01 Feb 1997 17:22:53 -0500 Message-ID: <32F3C3F8.46A1@moa.net> Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 17:30:17 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: moanet@moa.net Subject: [Fwd: Re: Newsgroup error messages: NNTP] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------230E36AC29A4" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 2433 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------230E36AC29A4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff at OU solved the soc.* hierarchy problem. Any ideas on the News NNTP errors I keep getting when trying to post and my inability to read messages from some newsgroups? -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------230E36AC29A4 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.54) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 01 Feb 1997 17:20:12 -0500 Message-ID: <32F3C357.345E@moa.net> Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 17:27:35 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Marraccini Subject: Re: Newsgroup error messages: NNTP References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff Marraccini wrote: > > It sounds like your system is only accepting the first few heirarchies. > We show soc.* having 224 groups in our copy of Netscape Gold 3.0 when > dialed into 370-0039. > > You might want to erase the files in the News directory under your > Netscape program directory to see if this clears up. Thanks, Jeff, it worked! I deleted the files and then reloaded and the entire hierarchies were pulled in, including all of soc.* If not, you'd best > switch programs (a good one is Free Agent available at > https://www.forteinc.com/) or contact Netscape support, as you are the only > person unable to reach these heirarchies on the MOAnet. > I'm still experiencing the posting news error: A News (NNTP) error has occurred; posting failed, sorry? That includes to newsgroups in the soc.* hierarchy, that's now at least THERE. Any ideas? I can't read in news.groups any UVV: Daily RFD, PQ, and CFV status report. Bill Aten (bill@netagw.com), a usenet volunteer, tells me they should be there. I'm supposed to fill out a questionnaire for the CFV soon. > > Jeff Marraccini jeff@oak.oakland.edu -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------230E36AC29A4-- From - Sun Jan 26 17:56:08 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.44) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:44:55 -0500 Message-ID: <32EBE022.2B15@moa.net> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:52:18 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christopher Stone Subject: [Fwd: Re: Newsgroup error messages] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------10F343925BA1" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 2858 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------10F343925BA1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, I appreciate your advising me to respond to others' messages because if you hadn't I would never have known something was wrong with my system server. Jeff Maracini at Oakland University has just emailed that they're trying to fix it. Thanks. --------------10F343925BA1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from oak.oakland.edu (141.210.10.117) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:12:05 -0500 Received: from oak.oakland.edu (oak.oakland.edu [198.111.3.158]) by oak.oakland.edu (8.8.4/8.7.4-jdm) with SMTP id KAA27165 for <@moa.net>; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:17:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:17:35 -0500 (EST) From: Jeff Marraccini To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Subject: Re: Newsgroup error messages In-Reply-To: <32EB6BD0.2B3B@moa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A fix is in progress by the MOAnet core team. I am not involved in its implementation, but I'll ask if I can help. Thanks, Jeff Jeff Marraccini jeff@oak.oakland.edu OCIS Network & Integration Services 810/981-0568 Oakland University "The Computer is your Friend." -- Paranoia Jeff Marraccini's Home Page On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > I keep getting an error message when I try to post to newsgroups on > MOA.net: > > A News (NNTP) error occurred: posting failed, sorry > > I'm working with Christopher Stone at the group-mentors for USEnet > at Princeton trying to get a RFD for a new newsgroup discussed and > voted on. This problem is preventing me from properly responding > to the discussion and half the time has run out for the 30 day > discussion period. Chris Stone has emailed me asking why I'm not > joining in all the discussion in news.groups, but when I use the > news browser to download from news.groups, I get only old messages, > my own, and a few new ones, not the responses he says should be > there. > > I thought the problem might have been Netscape 2.02, so I upgraded on > Saturday to Netscape Gold but it has not made any difference. That > seems to confirm it's a server problem or something. I'm using Windows > 95 too. > > Urgently, I ask for your suggestions? > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > --------------10F343925BA1-- From - Thu Feb 06 07:49:49 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.38) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 06 Feb 1997 06:18:38 -0500 Message-ID: <32F9BFD0.7779@moa.net> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 06:26:08 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: RFD & CFV: talk.religion.bahai] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------39F52CFC1C5C" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1747 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------39F52CFC1C5C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Boatright, I've received the following advice from one of the newsgroups mentors on posting. I'd appreciate it if you would crosspost messages to news.groups, which I believe perhaps already you have done a few times. Would you mind post or my posting a bried message to this effect? -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------39F52CFC1C5C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from gro.dd.org (206.66.153.102) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 05 Feb 1997 23:05:54 -0500 Received: (from tale@localhost) by gro.dd.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) id XAA24801; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:10:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:10:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702060410.XAA24801@gro.dd.org> To: @moa.net From: newgroups-request@isc.org (David Lawrence) Cc: group-advice@isc.org Reply-To: group-advice@isc.org Subject: Re: RFD & CFV: talk.religion.bahai In-Reply-To: <32F92382.6871@moa.net> References: <32F92382.6871@moa.net> People not posting in news.groups are not going to seriously jeopardize the discussion. If the moderator of soc.religion.bahai is accepting the discussion, that is fine enough --- just periodically remind people that it should be taking place in news.groups, and remind people in news.groups that they can see other discussion in You could also ask the soc.religion.bahai moderator to crosspost messages about talk.religion.bahai to news.groups. --------------39F52CFC1C5C-- From - Thu Feb 06 08:21:37 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.38) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 06 Feb 1997 06:18:38 -0500 Message-ID: <32F9BFD0.7779@moa.net> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 06:26:08 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: RFD & CFV: talk.religion.bahai] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------39F52CFC1C5C" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1747 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------39F52CFC1C5C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Boatright, I've received the following advice from one of the newsgroups mentors on posting. I'd appreciate it if you would crosspost messages to news.groups, which I believe perhaps already you have done a few times. Would you mind post or my posting a bried message to this effect? -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------39F52CFC1C5C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from gro.dd.org (206.66.153.102) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 05 Feb 1997 23:05:54 -0500 Received: (from tale@localhost) by gro.dd.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) id XAA24801; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:10:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:10:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702060410.XAA24801@gro.dd.org> To: @moa.net From: newgroups-request@isc.org (David Lawrence) Cc: group-advice@isc.org Reply-To: group-advice@isc.org Subject: Re: RFD & CFV: talk.religion.bahai In-Reply-To: <32F92382.6871@moa.net> References: <32F92382.6871@moa.net> People not posting in news.groups are not going to seriously jeopardize the discussion. If the moderator of soc.religion.bahai is accepting the discussion, that is fine enough --- just periodically remind people that it should be taking place in news.groups, and remind people in news.groups that they can see other discussion in You could also ask the soc.religion.bahai moderator to crosspost messages about talk.religion.bahai to news.groups. --------------39F52CFC1C5C-- From - Thu Feb 06 06:26:09 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32F9BFD0.7779@moa.net> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 06:26:08 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: RFD & CFV: talk.religion.bahai] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------39F52CFC1C5C" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1749 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------39F52CFC1C5C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Boatright, I've received the following advice from one of the newsgroups mentors on posting. I'd appreciate it if you would crosspost messages to news.groups, which I believe perhaps already you have done a few times. Would you mind post or my posting a bried message to this effect? -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------39F52CFC1C5C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from gro.dd.org (206.66.153.102) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 05 Feb 1997 23:05:54 -0500 Received: (from tale@localhost) by gro.dd.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) id XAA24801; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:10:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:10:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702060410.XAA24801@gro.dd.org> To: @moa.net From: newgroups-request@isc.org (David Lawrence) Cc: group-advice@isc.org Reply-To: group-advice@isc.org Subject: Re: RFD & CFV: talk.religion.bahai In-Reply-To: <32F92382.6871@moa.net> References: <32F92382.6871@moa.net> People not posting in news.groups are not going to seriously jeopardize the discussion. If the moderator of soc.religion.bahai is accepting the discussion, that is fine enough --- just periodically remind people that it should be taking place in news.groups, and remind people in news.groups that they can see other discussion in You could also ask the soc.religion.bahai moderator to crosspost messages about talk.religion.bahai to news.groups. --------------39F52CFC1C5C-- From - Thu Feb 06 16:48:50 1997 Received: from topeka.cjnetworks.com (206.52.158.250) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 06 Feb 1997 14:05:30 -0500 Received: from rick.cjnetworks.com (Port104.cjnetworks.com [206.52.159.193]) by topeka.cjnetworks.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA23155 for <@moa.net>; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:10:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199702061910.NAA23155@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:11:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: RFD & CFV: talk.religion.bahai] Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com Priority: normal In-reply-to: <32F9BFD0.7779@moa.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 459 We've been crosposting. I'll remind the others to do that. Rick > Mr. Boatright, > I've received the following advice from one of the newsgroups mentors on > posting. I'd appreciate it if you would crosspost messages to > news.groups, > which I believe perhaps already you have done a few times. > > Would you mind post or my posting a bried message to this effect? > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > From - Sun Feb 23 08:39:49 1997 Received: from f24.hotmail.com (207.82.250.35) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 23 Feb 1997 07:52:22 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by f24.hotmail.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA12147; Sun, 23 Feb 1997 04:58:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 04:58:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199702231258.EAA12147@f24.hotmail.com> Received: from 204.38.255.38 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 23 Feb 1997 04:58:00 PST X-Originating-IP: [204.38.255.38] From: "Fred Glaysher" To: @moa.net Cc: Subject: [Fwd: RFD: talk.religion.bahai] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------279E2BC24155" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 435 >Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:25:02 -0500 >From: FG <@moa.net> >To: FG@hotmail.com >CC: @MOA.net >Subject: [Fwd: RFD: talk.religion.bahai] >-- >Frederick Glaysher >Rochester, Michigan USA > --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at https://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From - Sun Feb 23 08:39:49 1997 Received: from f24.hotmail.com (207.82.250.35) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 23 Feb 1997 07:52:22 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by f24.hotmail.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA12147; Sun, 23 Feb 1997 04:58:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 04:58:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199702231258.EAA12147@f24.hotmail.com> Received: from 204.38.255.38 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 23 Feb 1997 04:58:00 PST X-Originating-IP: [204.38.255.38] From: "Fred Glaysher" To: @moa.net Cc: Subject: [Fwd: RFD: talk.religion.bahai] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------279E2BC24155" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 435 >Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:25:02 -0500 >From: FG <@moa.net> >To: FG@hotmail.com >CC: @MOA.net >Subject: [Fwd: RFD: talk.religion.bahai] >-- >Frederick Glaysher >Rochester, Michigan USA > --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at https://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From - Sun Feb 23 08:39:49 1997 Received: from f24.hotmail.com (207.82.250.35) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 23 Feb 1997 07:52:22 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by f24.hotmail.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA12147; Sun, 23 Feb 1997 04:58:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 04:58:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199702231258.EAA12147@f24.hotmail.com> Received: from 204.38.255.38 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 23 Feb 1997 04:58:00 PST X-Originating-IP: [204.38.255.38] From: "Fred Glaysher" To: @moa.net Cc: Subject: [Fwd: RFD: talk.religion.bahai] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------279E2BC24155" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 435 >Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 08:25:02 -0500 >From: FG <@moa.net> >To: FG@hotmail.com >CC: @MOA.net >Subject: [Fwd: RFD: talk.religion.bahai] >-- >Frederick Glaysher >Rochester, Michigan USA > --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at https://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From - Mon Apr 07 07:52:06 1997 >From mickeyd@envirolink.org Thu Mar 27 17:58:32 1997 Received: from manatee.envirolink.org by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA27523; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 20:56:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199703280156.UAA27523@envirolink.org> Date: Thu Mar 27 20:56:57 1997 X-Mailer: Panda-2.0e From: Mickey Darth Reply-To: mickeyd@envirolink.org To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: [soc.rights.human] Hate mail: talk.religion.bahai X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 568 My, don't we live in a civilized world. ;> Don't worry, they're more blithering idiots willing to cut you down for speaking your mind, but the onse who ask you why are not idiots. They are equals and are willing to support you, even if they disagree. Have hope, all is not lost. :) --- "Sleep my friend and you will see That dream is my reality They keep me locked up in this cage Can't they see it's why my brain says rage" -Metallica *This mind refuses to be chained. Listen to me as I scream my rage at your injustice.* From - Thu Apr 10 08:15:12 1997 >From jgoldberg@megsinet.net Wed Mar 19 20:08:11 1997 Received: from ns.megsinet.net ([208.150.38.138]) by megspo1.megsinet.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11704) with SMTP id AAA123; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 22:07:37 -0600 Message-ID: <3330B543.6DB6@megsinet.net> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 21:55:47 -0600 From: jgoldberg@megsinet.net (Jeffrey Goldberg) Reply-To: jgoldberg@megsinet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Davis CC: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Re: 2nd CFV: talk.religion.bahai References: <858539051.201@isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 51 I voted yes but never received an acknowledgement From - Wed Apr 09 08:20:25 1997 >From jgoldberg@megsinet.net Wed Mar 19 20:08:11 1997 Received: from ns.megsinet.net ([208.150.38.138]) by megspo1.megsinet.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11704) with SMTP id AAA123; Wed, 19 Mar 1997 22:07:37 -0600 Message-ID: <3330B543.6DB6@megsinet.net> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 21:55:47 -0600 From: jgoldberg@megsinet.net (Jeffrey Goldberg) Reply-To: jgoldberg@megsinet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Davis CC: Frederick Glaysher Subject: Re: 2nd CFV: talk.religion.bahai References: <858539051.201@isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 51 I voted yes but never received an acknowledgement From - Thu Apr 10 08:14:31 1997 >From jjd@primenet.com Sun Mar 16 14:51:56 1997 Received: from usr01.primenet.com (jjd@usr01.primenet.com [206.165.5.101]) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA28371; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 15:51:47 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 15:51:47 -0700 (MST) From: Jim Davis To: proponents , Claude.Gomez@inria.fr, FG@hotmail.com, Ramine.Nikoukhah@inria.fr Subject: 2nd CFVs posted. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 99 The news.announce.newgroups moderator has posted the final Call For Votes for your proposals. From - Wed Apr 09 08:19:54 1997 >From jjd@primenet.com Sun Mar 16 14:51:56 1997 Received: from usr01.primenet.com (jjd@usr01.primenet.com [206.165.5.101]) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA28371; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 15:51:47 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 15:51:47 -0700 (MST) From: Jim Davis To: proponents , Claude.Gomez@inria.fr, FG@hotmail.com, Ramine.Nikoukhah@inria.fr Subject: 2nd CFVs posted. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 99 The news.announce.newgroups moderator has posted the final Call For Votes for your proposals. From - Sun Feb 09 10:34:16 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDEE78.6208@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:34:16 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgoldberg@megsinet.net Subject: 2nd installment Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------68771EB1A2E" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 46870 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------68771EB1A2E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------68771EB1A2E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="srb10-19.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="srb10-19.txt" Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:35:36 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611181639.KAA16177@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I was trying to say two unrelated things. > > First, that was a really nice message. Well thought, cohesive, good > writing, I was trying to give you a compliment. > I don't need nor want your unsolicted editorial comments BIG BROTHER. I want the freedom to speak the conscience God has given me and the freedom to be responded to by OTHERS' unconstrained consciences. Stay out of the way. > Second, I was expressing my gratitude that the conflict between you > and the moderators a couple of weeks ago did not result in your > leaving the newsgroup. I appriciate your continued participation. > I feel nothing but contempt for the way you and Richard Detweiler have handled my postings. Make no mistake in that regard. Neither one of you, or anybody, has the prescience to exercise such power and control over others' consciences. The abuse of your power is a proper subject for discussion on the newsgroup. > > Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > > > Really nice message. Good work. Thanks for hanging in there with > > > us Frederick. I really appriciate it. > > > > > > Rick Boatright > > > > > > > Frankly, I don't know what you mean here. > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:47:54 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611181657.KAA17797@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > And in your internal model, what is the difference between a > moderator and a censor? See previous message to you. I asked a polite question. Did you intend > to post this? I sent it to the newsgroup, didn't I? Lots of people post things they didn't intend to, and > we catch a lot of those. In such cases, you'd be properly assisting discussion. They are generally greatful. I didn't > complain that you characterize Baha'i women as bloodless. Why should you? What business is it of yours? I'm not writing to you, nor do I want to. Yet here I am stuck in a non-productive task dealing with you and Richard.... I probebly > should. Why should you. Who the hell are you? I didn't complain that your comment was bigoted and > offensive to the vast majority of sexually active and spirited Baha'i > women, though I probebly should. A complaint you're entitled to make. In public. In response to me on the Net. Not shunting anything YOU don't like off into obscurity. Let them tell you that themselves. > I am saying the freedom for them to say so should be extended to them. You are robbing them of that God-given freedom of expression of conscience. > I asked a polite question. > > Lighten up. > Don't tell me to lighten up when you and Richard are perverting and screening the newsgroup self-righteous, prudishly suppressing opinions you don't like. Again, who are you two to make such decisions? Do you really imagine God has given you the ability to make such judgements? > Don't try to put a nazi mantle on my shoulders. > It's already there, Rick. Wake up. > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA >From - Wed Nov 20 10:10:58 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.58) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:46:37 -0500 Message-ID: <32930D52.2FC8@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:53:22 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. This newsgroup, > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > I'm not at all surprised Richardt.... Fascists and totalitarians have always sought to conceal and manipulate reality. > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 68 > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Sian Smith > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > >> > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is is > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed. We > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in the > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background that > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse of > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts. > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc. > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > another person). > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks. > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE > > reads.... It that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what > > is it? > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it.... > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged.... > > Let's not make waves.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > Wellington > > > New Zealand > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:26:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <"BYWGWC.A.PdB.pm0iy"@bounty> <328C806E.295C@moa.net> <32908412.2C44@oro.net> <3291A53E.78A1@moa.net> <3291CC64.9F@oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff wrote: > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > It > > > may be failing on my part if I don't try to correct > > > their view of me, but it is a far grosser failing if > > > I resent them for their views and let myself become > > > embittered by it. I won't change anything by lashing > > > out in anger, or by intentional alienation. Worst of all > > > if I separate myself from the entire Baha'i community > > > and Baha'u'allah because of these people, I'm only > > > doing myself a disservice. If they're really my enemies, > > > then my being a "weak sister" would be quite pleasing > > > to them. > > > > > > > You're a lovely soul. A more pious answer than I can muster. > > Piety has nothing to do with it. It's common sense. If we are > to unify, we must be unified. Unity can never be served by > anger or alienation. The only way to get rid of darkness is > to throw light on it. More darkness only conduces to, well... > more darkness. > > To my mind, after twenty years in the Baha'i Faith, the "unity" is a fraud, doesn't exist.... > > How will they deal with such things? What are the mechanisms? > > For "Evil is the Nature of Mankind." > > The mechanisms are those clearly laid down by Baha'u'llah, > Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. They involve a certain > giving up of self, consultation, respect, courtesy and > other attributes with which God has fully invested us. If these are the "mechanisms," they're insufficient. > I have served on assemblies for over 15 years. I've seen > this at work. Sometimes we need reminders, sometimes we > fail utterly, but the fact that we try is of paramount > importance and has great power. > > ""Evil is the Nature of Mankind?" Not according to > Baha'u'llah: > > "O Son of the Wondrous Vision! I have breathed upon thee > a breath of My own Spirit that thou mayest be My lover. > Why hast thou forsaken me and sought a beloved other > than Me?" > > "O Son of Spirit! Noble have I created thee, yet thou > hast abased thyself. Rise then, unto that for which > thou wast created." > > These passages and others make it clear that it is > our nature to be noble. Antinomy is presupposed. There is tragedy in Baha'u'llah's writings, tragedy minds like yours (I mean no insult), typically fail to understand. The other part is nurture. > We learn deceit and we teach it to others. We learn > hatred and we pass it along like a disease. > > > > Buddha said: Hatred does not cease by hatred, hatred ceases > > > by love. > > > > > > > Tell that to the Tibetans who have had their whole civilization > > wiped out.... > > They understand this better than anyone. What, after all, > nearly wiped out their civilization? Hatred and fear of what > was different and not controllable by the powers that would > be. > Even the Dali Lama has had second thoughts.... Much too late. > > They must. Let's be practical. What though when Assemblies self- > > righteously abuse their authority and persecute individuals? That > > can happen too, and then what? > > If a person feels he is being persecuted he has recourse to > the Auxiliary Board, another spiritual assembly, the National > Spiritual Assembly or even the House of Justice. Any and all > of these avenues of redress is open to the individual. Of > course, there is always the possibility that the individual's > perception that he's being "persecuted" is false. It's never > pleasant to be wrong about something, less pleasant to have > someone call your attention to it and ask that your behavior > change. I know this from personal experience. > > > > > As > > > an individual, I still had to treat the subject of consultation > > > with compassion. > > > > > > > A very dehumanizing phrase, Maya. It seems to me. This human tendency > > worries me. Don't tell me to pray about it. > > I'm sorry. I certainly didn't intend it to be. I intended it to be > neutral. Look, I have served on assemblies long enough to have > seen a gamut of personal problems and situations arise. I have > NEVER known an assembly to EVER lose sight of the fact that > what they were dealing with wasn't a problem, but a person. > Usually, the person is much loved, and their situation causes > the members of the institution very personal grief. > > The sad thing is that the soul involved doesn't always realize > this. And regardless of the actual feelings of the assembly > members, treats them as if they were indeed, a persecuting > force. One young man an assembly I sat on counseled had a > drug problem for which he refused to get help. He viewed > the mere fact that the assembly called him for consultation > as an act of personal persecution. He thought the people on > the assembly were "out to get him," when in fact, every one > of them loved him, valued him and wanted him to be well both > spiritually and physically. After one meeting in which we had > attempted to talk to him, several members of the assembly burst > into tears. > Anything in the name of love? Nine amateur spiritual psychologists are just going to talk someone straight? I've seen it attempted too with similar results.... > > > > Reasonable. Many in the Faith thinks this way. I do too in some regards. > > But then we're no longer in a world of ideal beauty.... > > But Baha'u'llah is clear that His teachings and the power > released by His revelation have the capacity to light that > spark He says lies latent within us. I've seen what that > spark can accomplish in the lives of ordinary human beings. > We have within our grasp the means of bringing that world > of ideal beauty out of the realm of spirit and onto this > earth. The scriptures of God's faith in every age proclaim > this unequivocally. > And have always failed.... By there own self-definitions, failed. Why? What is it about human nature? Do you actually believe the Baha'i Faith will do any better? I don't. I don't believe the deepest suggestions of the writings suggest any such thing. > > My post, I believe, was about the individual capacity to sully anything > > and everything in "this world of gloom." > > May I call you Eeyore? :) (Sorry, couldn't help myself.) > I tried to post a reply to on the newsgroup. I used the same phrase in the copy I mailed you: "utterly naive" Richard Detweiler has banned my post because it might hurt your feelings--not my intention. A good example of the self-righteous Fascism build the new world order inspires in Baha'i fanatics.... Calling me Eeyore doesn't hurt my feelings. I have, unlike fanatics, a sense of humor and relish the variety of human temperaments God has so blessed the world with. Yours is not mine, that is all. Do the Faith a favor, write the CENSOR and tell him to respect the human conscience of others, not only mine. > In the Kitab-i-Iqan, Baha'u'llah says that when we truly > accept Him, recognize Him, the Holy Spirit will confer > upon us "a new ear, a new eye, a new heart and a new mind." > We are capable of being transformed, and the Word of God > (and only the Word of God ) is capable of causing that > transformation. > Beautiful metaphors. Understand? > I am deeply sorry that your experience within the > Baha'i community has been so negative. The lack of complexity is what concerns me, and the lack of acknowledgement of proportion. But every > negative experience in life offers us more than one > way to react. I've often marveled how adversity can > make one person opt for a life of misery and > recrimination (it was mother's fault, it was God's > fault, it was...) and another come to the decision that > they will simply NOT let that adversity steal their > joy, or their life. > > I know there are Baha'i communities that are ruled > by a small clique of set in stone believers, or > groups where a number of petty-minded souls seem > to have things in control. Indeed, I have a friend > who lived in such a community until a new Baha'i > family moved in and changed the dynamics of the > situation. My friend chose to deal with the problem > by withdrawing. The new friends set about and > accomplished the renewal of that community by > opening their house to firesides, getting the > assembly to meet, teaching the faith, and most > important, showering everyone in their community, > including those set in stone souls with love. They > gave the community the medicine Baha'u'llah > prescribed and saved the patient. > The usual answer. Lacking complexity. > You may argue against the idea that hatred ceases > only through love, but this is a prescription from > a Physician who knows far more about the ills of > human kind than either you or I. > It has never truly healed the patient. Baha'u'llah, unlike Baha'is, understands the condition is terminal.... > Mir, Maya > +----------------------------------------+ > | Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff syntax@oro.net | > +----------------------------------------+ > | "The beginning of all things is the | > | knowledge of God." - Baha'u'llah | > +----------------------------------------+ -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community To: @moa.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:43:07 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 19, 96 06:10:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, that would be acceptable. Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these events. Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and blatant sarcasm. Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@moa.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 78 > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > To: Anne Furlong > CC: @moa.net > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > whatsoever. > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > [clip] > > > > > Why do people become disillusioned with the community? with individuals? > > Well, we all know people who, by force of personality, or because of > > defects of character and personality, receive, demand, or desire > > acquiescence from other individuals. But note: if such people do in fact > > poison a community, who ultimately must take the responsibility? Power > > is not theirs to command: it is ceded to them by those who have not the > > wisdom or the courage to recognise that what is being asked is both > > contrary to the Faith, and ultimately impossible to give. > > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > > Yes, impossible: for since in the Administrative order which is > > Baha'u'llah's gift to the world, power and authority are divided, > > In theory, yes; in practice, I'm not convinced. > > then the > > efforts of a few misguided individuals to bring power and authority > > together in their own persons; or to build up factions; or to do anything, > > in fact, which is contravenes the spirit and the reality of the Covenant, > > are doomed to failure. 'Abdu'l-Baha said that the ocean of the Covenant > > will surge and surge until it casts the bodies of the (spiritually) dead > > onto the shore. We cannot ultimately harm the progress of the Cause, but > > can cut ourselves off from the abundant share of the blessings which > > obedience to the Covenant brings to us. > > > > If we are disillusioned with the community we live in, then our response > > will either add to the problem or be the start of its eradication. The > > whole purpose of consultation is to allow the individual to exercise > > responsibility - his power - within the "unit of civilization". > > What I am saying is that there are situations when it is not allowed. You're > too quick to leap over that fact for me. > > We are > > all going to be responsible for our actions to Baha'u'llah when we pass > > from this earth; are we going to plead the immaturity of others as the > > reason for our failure to love? > > > > Your dragging "love" into this confuses the issue. > > > Baha'u'llah did more than despise tyranny; in his Administrative Order, > > He, as the Divine Physician, prescribed the effective and permanent remedy. > > > > The point from the original post was in regard to the abuse of the remedy, > turning it into a cheap medicine show elixir. What then of the community > or individuals under that Tyranny? > > > All the best, > > > > Anne Furlong > > St John's Newfoundland Canada > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:27:04 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > False. They go to the heart of the matter, i.e., how it functions. > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. "Vent your frustrations" is in the same category as my "Utterly naive." I don't seek to deprive you of your conscience that apparently believes that. You may say what you wish. It won't hurt my little feelings. I believe you're again manipulating discussion in a dictatorial, oppressive manner unjustified by anything in the Baha'i Writings which you apparently cloak your shameless deeds in. This newsgroup, > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > The abuse of the conscience of a member of the Baha'i Faith and, apparently regular practice of distortion and censorship is not a suitable topic? I can understand why you wouldn't wish to have anyone else know.... > Thank you for participating, > I'm not participating at all. You are self-righteous depriving me of that. You are also depriving others of hearing or disagreeing with my opinions. > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 68 > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Sian Smith > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > >> > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is is > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed. We > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in the > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background that > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse of > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts. > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc. > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > another person). > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks. > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE > > reads.... If that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what > > is it? > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it.... > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged.... > > Let's not make ways.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > Wellington > > > New Zealand > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > = End submitted post =========================== YOU DEAR CENSORS have shown your true colors once again. >From - Wed Nov 20 13:57:47 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.66) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:25:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3293247F.2340@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:32:15 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Further response-- Your characterization of my comments as sarcastic is ludicrous. One may not be sarcastic in the Baha'i Faith? And you are too determine is toooooo SARCASTIC? Oh God, what a farce! Since you apparently don't understand the passage in question, I'm supposed to water in down for YOUR ignorance! I'm talking about the totalitarianism of the SOVIET UNION which you dangerously come close to. Again, I request that you post my message or pass it on to someone else who is not as fanatical as you. Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack > on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, > that would be acceptable. > > Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events > than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these > events. > > Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, > you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for > the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and > blatant sarcasm. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 78 > > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Anne Furlong > > CC: @moa.net > > > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > > whatsoever. > > > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > > > [clip] From: FG <@MOA.net> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:43:04 -0500 Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32945C68.3378@moa.net> References: <56tfo6$cgg@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <56vdgi$eth@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) CC: @MOA.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling through this morass.... The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the power to change the world.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611202214.PAA26784@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > > The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be subject > > > to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include frank > > > yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search > > > for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this statement > > > alone that I have rejected some of your posts. > > > > I don't believe this is true. "Utterly naive" refers to the idea, not to > > its author as an insult. You're the one who has construed that way. I can't > > even understand what could possibly be WRONG with your objection to the > > second passage in the post in question. > > > > Thank you for pointing this out - I hadn't thought of it like that. Then what's YOUR problem. Post it or suppress it. But I > hope you can see that if I (and the other mods) can be confused on this > point, it will probably be the case with many in the readership as well. You're assumption is that OTHERS will be as imperceptive as you. And hence you BAN ME! > Our tendency is to err on the side of not posting things when they may be > misinterpretted by the readership as being attacks or insults. Even after admitting the ERROR is on your part? Not logical. You're trying to justify your heavy-handed will to BAN. That way, > the respectful tone is maintained. There is nothing disrespectful about either passage YOU'VE questioned. Remember that the readership includes > people from all backgrounds and cultures. Irrelevant justification. You're groping for excuses. I have been surprised many times > when seemingly innocuous comments have offended. Nothing would then ever get posted in your scenario. Unless it meets your prejudices. I try to make sure the > chance of this is kept to a minimum. > I don't know that. You're suppression to posting ratio would be required to make that determination; it would have to be independently confirmed. > And, if I may, don't you think "I believe you are being naive because..." > makes your points easier for other to accept and continue to engage you > rather than a brusque "Utterly naive"? Please think about that. I > assume your reason for being here is to share your viewpoint with others. > You sound like a schoolmarm. A self-righteous, prudish old bag. What gives you the right? God's charter? It doesn't come from Him. > > Your attempt to hide behind the newsgroup charter strikes me as a mere > > stratagem to conceal what you're actually doing: CENSORING. > > > > Once again, Mr Glaysher - my job is not to supress ideas but to make sure > those ideas are presented in a respectful manner conducive to frank and > unfettered consultation. > You're completely fettering my consultation. But that's okay. You possess the prescience to know better. Again, you're groping for justification of your suppressing the presentation of my views to others. > I continue to await the chance to post your thoughts in the submittals in > question when they are appropriate for posting to the newsgroup. > Mr. Detweiler, you appear to me to be completely shameless and drunk on your little power to muzzle people who don't echo your opinions. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai Again, I ask you to post my message since as you acknowledge above its about IDEAS. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611221548.IAA01560@primenet.com> Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled To: @MOA.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:48:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 22, 96 08:18:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Sorry for the inadvertent send on the last message. The following will not be posted to the newsgroup as it is disrespectful in tone and sarcastic in the extreme. As a Baha'i, perhaps you will get some value out of the following excerpts from Baha'u'llah's Writings. I provide them as insight into why the moderators enforce the policies they have in place. "O ye beloved of the Lord! Commit not that which defileth the limpid stream of love or destroyeth the sweet fragrance of friendship. By the righteousness of the Lord! We were created to show love one to another and not perversity and rancor. Take pride not in love for yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love for your country, but in love for all mankind." - Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah 138 (quoted in "Unrestrained as the Wind", section on "Demonstrating love and fellowship", p 87 ). "Say: Human utterance is an essence which aspireth to exert its influence and needeth moderation. As to its influence, this is conditional upon refinement which in turn is dependent upon hearts which are detached and pure. As to its moderation, this hath to be combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures and Tablets. Meditate upon that which hath streamed forth from the heaven of the Will of thy Lord, He Who is the Source of all grace, that thou mayest grasp the intended meaning which is enshrined in the sacred depths of the Holy Writings." - Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Wisdom, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 143 "For the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of speech a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endure a century." - Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 193 Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-11.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:18:05 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 20 > Message-ID: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> > References: <56vhv1$p1e@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > CC: @MOA.net > > Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always > been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult > to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling > through this morass.... > > The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: > > > THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! > > > There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. > > I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the > power to change the world.... > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== >From - Sun Nov 24 10:10:50 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.60) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:34:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3296F108.4BEF@moa.net> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:41:44 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611211540.IAA09540@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 What I wrote meets the charter of the newsgroup and the "modifications" you want are unnecessary and unjustifiable. You yourself acknowledged your request for "modification" was based on your own misreading and misunderstanding of the post. God save us if the Baha'i Faith comes down to people like you "protecting" us.... I ask you again to post it or pass it on to someone else who's more rational than you. --------------68771EB1A2E-- From - Sun Feb 09 10:38:56 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.57) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:27:06 -0500 Message-ID: <32FDEE78.6208@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:34:16 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgoldberg@megsinet.net Subject: 2nd installment Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------68771EB1A2E" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 46868 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------68771EB1A2E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------68771EB1A2E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="srb10-19.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="srb10-19.txt" Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:35:36 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611181639.KAA16177@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I was trying to say two unrelated things. > > First, that was a really nice message. Well thought, cohesive, good > writing, I was trying to give you a compliment. > I don't need nor want your unsolicted editorial comments BIG BROTHER. I want the freedom to speak the conscience God has given me and the freedom to be responded to by OTHERS' unconstrained consciences. Stay out of the way. > Second, I was expressing my gratitude that the conflict between you > and the moderators a couple of weeks ago did not result in your > leaving the newsgroup. I appriciate your continued participation. > I feel nothing but contempt for the way you and Richard Detweiler have handled my postings. Make no mistake in that regard. Neither one of you, or anybody, has the prescience to exercise such power and control over others' consciences. The abuse of your power is a proper subject for discussion on the newsgroup. > > Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > > > Really nice message. Good work. Thanks for hanging in there with > > > us Frederick. I really appriciate it. > > > > > > Rick Boatright > > > > > > > Frankly, I don't know what you mean here. > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:47:54 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611181657.KAA17797@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > And in your internal model, what is the difference between a > moderator and a censor? See previous message to you. I asked a polite question. Did you intend > to post this? I sent it to the newsgroup, didn't I? Lots of people post things they didn't intend to, and > we catch a lot of those. In such cases, you'd be properly assisting discussion. They are generally greatful. I didn't > complain that you characterize Baha'i women as bloodless. Why should you? What business is it of yours? I'm not writing to you, nor do I want to. Yet here I am stuck in a non-productive task dealing with you and Richard.... I probebly > should. Why should you. Who the hell are you? I didn't complain that your comment was bigoted and > offensive to the vast majority of sexually active and spirited Baha'i > women, though I probebly should. A complaint you're entitled to make. In public. In response to me on the Net. Not shunting anything YOU don't like off into obscurity. Let them tell you that themselves. > I am saying the freedom for them to say so should be extended to them. You are robbing them of that God-given freedom of expression of conscience. > I asked a polite question. > > Lighten up. > Don't tell me to lighten up when you and Richard are perverting and screening the newsgroup self-righteous, prudishly suppressing opinions you don't like. Again, who are you two to make such decisions? Do you really imagine God has given you the ability to make such judgements? > Don't try to put a nazi mantle on my shoulders. > It's already there, Rick. Wake up. > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA >From - Wed Nov 20 10:10:58 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.58) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:46:37 -0500 Message-ID: <32930D52.2FC8@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:53:22 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. This newsgroup, > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > I'm not at all surprised Richardt.... Fascists and totalitarians have always sought to conceal and manipulate reality. > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 68 > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Sian Smith > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > >> > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is is > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed. We > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in the > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background that > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse of > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts. > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc. > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > another person). > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks. > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE > > reads.... It that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what > > is it? > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it.... > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged.... > > Let's not make waves.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > Wellington > > > New Zealand > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:26:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <"BYWGWC.A.PdB.pm0iy"@bounty> <328C806E.295C@moa.net> <32908412.2C44@oro.net> <3291A53E.78A1@moa.net> <3291CC64.9F@oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff wrote: > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > It > > > may be failing on my part if I don't try to correct > > > their view of me, but it is a far grosser failing if > > > I resent them for their views and let myself become > > > embittered by it. I won't change anything by lashing > > > out in anger, or by intentional alienation. Worst of all > > > if I separate myself from the entire Baha'i community > > > and Baha'u'allah because of these people, I'm only > > > doing myself a disservice. If they're really my enemies, > > > then my being a "weak sister" would be quite pleasing > > > to them. > > > > > > > You're a lovely soul. A more pious answer than I can muster. > > Piety has nothing to do with it. It's common sense. If we are > to unify, we must be unified. Unity can never be served by > anger or alienation. The only way to get rid of darkness is > to throw light on it. More darkness only conduces to, well... > more darkness. > > To my mind, after twenty years in the Baha'i Faith, the "unity" is a fraud, doesn't exist.... > > How will they deal with such things? What are the mechanisms? > > For "Evil is the Nature of Mankind." > > The mechanisms are those clearly laid down by Baha'u'llah, > Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. They involve a certain > giving up of self, consultation, respect, courtesy and > other attributes with which God has fully invested us. If these are the "mechanisms," they're insufficient. > I have served on assemblies for over 15 years. I've seen > this at work. Sometimes we need reminders, sometimes we > fail utterly, but the fact that we try is of paramount > importance and has great power. > > ""Evil is the Nature of Mankind?" Not according to > Baha'u'llah: > > "O Son of the Wondrous Vision! I have breathed upon thee > a breath of My own Spirit that thou mayest be My lover. > Why hast thou forsaken me and sought a beloved other > than Me?" > > "O Son of Spirit! Noble have I created thee, yet thou > hast abased thyself. Rise then, unto that for which > thou wast created." > > These passages and others make it clear that it is > our nature to be noble. Antinomy is presupposed. There is tragedy in Baha'u'llah's writings, tragedy minds like yours (I mean no insult), typically fail to understand. The other part is nurture. > We learn deceit and we teach it to others. We learn > hatred and we pass it along like a disease. > > > > Buddha said: Hatred does not cease by hatred, hatred ceases > > > by love. > > > > > > > Tell that to the Tibetans who have had their whole civilization > > wiped out.... > > They understand this better than anyone. What, after all, > nearly wiped out their civilization? Hatred and fear of what > was different and not controllable by the powers that would > be. > Even the Dali Lama has had second thoughts.... Much too late. > > They must. Let's be practical. What though when Assemblies self- > > righteously abuse their authority and persecute individuals? That > > can happen too, and then what? > > If a person feels he is being persecuted he has recourse to > the Auxiliary Board, another spiritual assembly, the National > Spiritual Assembly or even the House of Justice. Any and all > of these avenues of redress is open to the individual. Of > course, there is always the possibility that the individual's > perception that he's being "persecuted" is false. It's never > pleasant to be wrong about something, less pleasant to have > someone call your attention to it and ask that your behavior > change. I know this from personal experience. > > > > > As > > > an individual, I still had to treat the subject of consultation > > > with compassion. > > > > > > > A very dehumanizing phrase, Maya. It seems to me. This human tendency > > worries me. Don't tell me to pray about it. > > I'm sorry. I certainly didn't intend it to be. I intended it to be > neutral. Look, I have served on assemblies long enough to have > seen a gamut of personal problems and situations arise. I have > NEVER known an assembly to EVER lose sight of the fact that > what they were dealing with wasn't a problem, but a person. > Usually, the person is much loved, and their situation causes > the members of the institution very personal grief. > > The sad thing is that the soul involved doesn't always realize > this. And regardless of the actual feelings of the assembly > members, treats them as if they were indeed, a persecuting > force. One young man an assembly I sat on counseled had a > drug problem for which he refused to get help. He viewed > the mere fact that the assembly called him for consultation > as an act of personal persecution. He thought the people on > the assembly were "out to get him," when in fact, every one > of them loved him, valued him and wanted him to be well both > spiritually and physically. After one meeting in which we had > attempted to talk to him, several members of the assembly burst > into tears. > Anything in the name of love? Nine amateur spiritual psychologists are just going to talk someone straight? I've seen it attempted too with similar results.... > > > > Reasonable. Many in the Faith thinks this way. I do too in some regards. > > But then we're no longer in a world of ideal beauty.... > > But Baha'u'llah is clear that His teachings and the power > released by His revelation have the capacity to light that > spark He says lies latent within us. I've seen what that > spark can accomplish in the lives of ordinary human beings. > We have within our grasp the means of bringing that world > of ideal beauty out of the realm of spirit and onto this > earth. The scriptures of God's faith in every age proclaim > this unequivocally. > And have always failed.... By there own self-definitions, failed. Why? What is it about human nature? Do you actually believe the Baha'i Faith will do any better? I don't. I don't believe the deepest suggestions of the writings suggest any such thing. > > My post, I believe, was about the individual capacity to sully anything > > and everything in "this world of gloom." > > May I call you Eeyore? :) (Sorry, couldn't help myself.) > I tried to post a reply to on the newsgroup. I used the same phrase in the copy I mailed you: "utterly naive" Richard Detweiler has banned my post because it might hurt your feelings--not my intention. A good example of the self-righteous Fascism build the new world order inspires in Baha'i fanatics.... Calling me Eeyore doesn't hurt my feelings. I have, unlike fanatics, a sense of humor and relish the variety of human temperaments God has so blessed the world with. Yours is not mine, that is all. Do the Faith a favor, write the CENSOR and tell him to respect the human conscience of others, not only mine. > In the Kitab-i-Iqan, Baha'u'llah says that when we truly > accept Him, recognize Him, the Holy Spirit will confer > upon us "a new ear, a new eye, a new heart and a new mind." > We are capable of being transformed, and the Word of God > (and only the Word of God ) is capable of causing that > transformation. > Beautiful metaphors. Understand? > I am deeply sorry that your experience within the > Baha'i community has been so negative. The lack of complexity is what concerns me, and the lack of acknowledgement of proportion. But every > negative experience in life offers us more than one > way to react. I've often marveled how adversity can > make one person opt for a life of misery and > recrimination (it was mother's fault, it was God's > fault, it was...) and another come to the decision that > they will simply NOT let that adversity steal their > joy, or their life. > > I know there are Baha'i communities that are ruled > by a small clique of set in stone believers, or > groups where a number of petty-minded souls seem > to have things in control. Indeed, I have a friend > who lived in such a community until a new Baha'i > family moved in and changed the dynamics of the > situation. My friend chose to deal with the problem > by withdrawing. The new friends set about and > accomplished the renewal of that community by > opening their house to firesides, getting the > assembly to meet, teaching the faith, and most > important, showering everyone in their community, > including those set in stone souls with love. They > gave the community the medicine Baha'u'llah > prescribed and saved the patient. > The usual answer. Lacking complexity. > You may argue against the idea that hatred ceases > only through love, but this is a prescription from > a Physician who knows far more about the ills of > human kind than either you or I. > It has never truly healed the patient. Baha'u'llah, unlike Baha'is, understands the condition is terminal.... > Mir, Maya > +----------------------------------------+ > | Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff syntax@oro.net | > +----------------------------------------+ > | "The beginning of all things is the | > | knowledge of God." - Baha'u'llah | > +----------------------------------------+ -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community To: @moa.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:43:07 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 19, 96 06:10:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, that would be acceptable. Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these events. Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and blatant sarcasm. Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@moa.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 78 > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > To: Anne Furlong > CC: @moa.net > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > whatsoever. > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > [clip] > > > > > Why do people become disillusioned with the community? with individuals? > > Well, we all know people who, by force of personality, or because of > > defects of character and personality, receive, demand, or desire > > acquiescence from other individuals. But note: if such people do in fact > > poison a community, who ultimately must take the responsibility? Power > > is not theirs to command: it is ceded to them by those who have not the > > wisdom or the courage to recognise that what is being asked is both > > contrary to the Faith, and ultimately impossible to give. > > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > > Yes, impossible: for since in the Administrative order which is > > Baha'u'llah's gift to the world, power and authority are divided, > > In theory, yes; in practice, I'm not convinced. > > then the > > efforts of a few misguided individuals to bring power and authority > > together in their own persons; or to build up factions; or to do anything, > > in fact, which is contravenes the spirit and the reality of the Covenant, > > are doomed to failure. 'Abdu'l-Baha said that the ocean of the Covenant > > will surge and surge until it casts the bodies of the (spiritually) dead > > onto the shore. We cannot ultimately harm the progress of the Cause, but > > can cut ourselves off from the abundant share of the blessings which > > obedience to the Covenant brings to us. > > > > If we are disillusioned with the community we live in, then our response > > will either add to the problem or be the start of its eradication. The > > whole purpose of consultation is to allow the individual to exercise > > responsibility - his power - within the "unit of civilization". > > What I am saying is that there are situations when it is not allowed. You're > too quick to leap over that fact for me. > > We are > > all going to be responsible for our actions to Baha'u'llah when we pass > > from this earth; are we going to plead the immaturity of others as the > > reason for our failure to love? > > > > Your dragging "love" into this confuses the issue. > > > Baha'u'llah did more than despise tyranny; in his Administrative Order, > > He, as the Divine Physician, prescribed the effective and permanent remedy. > > > > The point from the original post was in regard to the abuse of the remedy, > turning it into a cheap medicine show elixir. What then of the community > or individuals under that Tyranny? > > > All the best, > > > > Anne Furlong > > St John's Newfoundland Canada > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:27:04 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > False. They go to the heart of the matter, i.e., how it functions. > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. "Vent your frustrations" is in the same category as my "Utterly naive." I don't seek to deprive you of your conscience that apparently believes that. You may say what you wish. It won't hurt my little feelings. I believe you're again manipulating discussion in a dictatorial, oppressive manner unjustified by anything in the Baha'i Writings which you apparently cloak your shameless deeds in. This newsgroup, > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > The abuse of the conscience of a member of the Baha'i Faith and, apparently regular practice of distortion and censorship is not a suitable topic? I can understand why you wouldn't wish to have anyone else know.... > Thank you for participating, > I'm not participating at all. You are self-righteous depriving me of that. You are also depriving others of hearing or disagreeing with my opinions. > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 68 > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Sian Smith > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > >> > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is is > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed. We > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in the > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background that > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse of > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts. > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc. > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > another person). > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks. > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE > > reads.... If that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what > > is it? > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it.... > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged.... > > Let's not make ways.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > Wellington > > > New Zealand > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > = End submitted post =========================== YOU DEAR CENSORS have shown your true colors once again. >From - Wed Nov 20 13:57:47 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.66) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:25:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3293247F.2340@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:32:15 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Further response-- Your characterization of my comments as sarcastic is ludicrous. One may not be sarcastic in the Baha'i Faith? And you are too determine is toooooo SARCASTIC? Oh God, what a farce! Since you apparently don't understand the passage in question, I'm supposed to water in down for YOUR ignorance! I'm talking about the totalitarianism of the SOVIET UNION which you dangerously come close to. Again, I request that you post my message or pass it on to someone else who is not as fanatical as you. Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack > on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, > that would be acceptable. > > Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events > than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these > events. > > Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, > you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for > the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and > blatant sarcasm. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 78 > > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Anne Furlong > > CC: @moa.net > > > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > > whatsoever. > > > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > > > [clip] From: FG <@MOA.net> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:43:04 -0500 Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32945C68.3378@moa.net> References: <56tfo6$cgg@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <56vdgi$eth@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) CC: @MOA.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling through this morass.... The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the power to change the world.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611202214.PAA26784@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > > The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be subject > > > to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include frank > > > yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search > > > for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this statement > > > alone that I have rejected some of your posts. > > > > I don't believe this is true. "Utterly naive" refers to the idea, not to > > its author as an insult. You're the one who has construed that way. I can't > > even understand what could possibly be WRONG with your objection to the > > second passage in the post in question. > > > > Thank you for pointing this out - I hadn't thought of it like that. Then what's YOUR problem. Post it or suppress it. But I > hope you can see that if I (and the other mods) can be confused on this > point, it will probably be the case with many in the readership as well. You're assumption is that OTHERS will be as imperceptive as you. And hence you BAN ME! > Our tendency is to err on the side of not posting things when they may be > misinterpretted by the readership as being attacks or insults. Even after admitting the ERROR is on your part? Not logical. You're trying to justify your heavy-handed will to BAN. That way, > the respectful tone is maintained. There is nothing disrespectful about either passage YOU'VE questioned. Remember that the readership includes > people from all backgrounds and cultures. Irrelevant justification. You're groping for excuses. I have been surprised many times > when seemingly innocuous comments have offended. Nothing would then ever get posted in your scenario. Unless it meets your prejudices. I try to make sure the > chance of this is kept to a minimum. > I don't know that. You're suppression to posting ratio would be required to make that determination; it would have to be independently confirmed. > And, if I may, don't you think "I believe you are being naive because..." > makes your points easier for other to accept and continue to engage you > rather than a brusque "Utterly naive"? Please think about that. I > assume your reason for being here is to share your viewpoint with others. > You sound like a schoolmarm. A self-righteous, prudish old bag. What gives you the right? God's charter? It doesn't come from Him. > > Your attempt to hide behind the newsgroup charter strikes me as a mere > > stratagem to conceal what you're actually doing: CENSORING. > > > > Once again, Mr Glaysher - my job is not to supress ideas but to make sure > those ideas are presented in a respectful manner conducive to frank and > unfettered consultation. > You're completely fettering my consultation. But that's okay. You possess the prescience to know better. Again, you're groping for justification of your suppressing the presentation of my views to others. > I continue to await the chance to post your thoughts in the submittals in > question when they are appropriate for posting to the newsgroup. > Mr. Detweiler, you appear to me to be completely shameless and drunk on your little power to muzzle people who don't echo your opinions. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai Again, I ask you to post my message since as you acknowledge above its about IDEAS. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611221548.IAA01560@primenet.com> Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled To: @MOA.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:48:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 22, 96 08:18:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Sorry for the inadvertent send on the last message. The following will not be posted to the newsgroup as it is disrespectful in tone and sarcastic in the extreme. As a Baha'i, perhaps you will get some value out of the following excerpts from Baha'u'llah's Writings. I provide them as insight into why the moderators enforce the policies they have in place. "O ye beloved of the Lord! Commit not that which defileth the limpid stream of love or destroyeth the sweet fragrance of friendship. By the righteousness of the Lord! We were created to show love one to another and not perversity and rancor. Take pride not in love for yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love for your country, but in love for all mankind." - Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah 138 (quoted in "Unrestrained as the Wind", section on "Demonstrating love and fellowship", p 87 ). "Say: Human utterance is an essence which aspireth to exert its influence and needeth moderation. As to its influence, this is conditional upon refinement which in turn is dependent upon hearts which are detached and pure. As to its moderation, this hath to be combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures and Tablets. Meditate upon that which hath streamed forth from the heaven of the Will of thy Lord, He Who is the Source of all grace, that thou mayest grasp the intended meaning which is enshrined in the sacred depths of the Holy Writings." - Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Wisdom, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 143 "For the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of speech a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endure a century." - Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 193 Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-11.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:18:05 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 20 > Message-ID: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> > References: <56vhv1$p1e@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > CC: @MOA.net > > Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always > been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult > to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling > through this morass.... > > The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: > > > THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! > > > There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. > > I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the > power to change the world.... > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== >From - Sun Nov 24 10:10:50 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.60) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:34:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3296F108.4BEF@moa.net> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:41:44 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611211540.IAA09540@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 What I wrote meets the charter of the newsgroup and the "modifications" you want are unnecessary and unjustifiable. You yourself acknowledged your request for "modification" was based on your own misreading and misunderstanding of the post. God save us if the Baha'i Faith comes down to people like you "protecting" us.... I ask you again to post it or pass it on to someone else who's more rational than you. --------------68771EB1A2E-- From - Wed Feb 12 05:56:50 1997 Received: from usr04.primenet.com (206.165.5.104) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:23:45 -0500 Received: (from rdetweil@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13050; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:26:51 -0700 (MST) From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199702112026.NAA13050@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: 3 copies? To: @moa.net Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:26:50 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3300D509.5440@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Feb 11, 97 03:22:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 171 Fred, I'm getting 3 copies of each of your submittals. I'd appreciate it if you might look into it on your end. Dick Detweiler co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai From - Thu Apr 10 08:11:05 1997 >From brentreed@aol.com Thu Mar 13 13:44:05 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA25476; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:34:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:34:54 -0500 (EST) From: BrentReed@aol.com Message-ID: <970313163451_279999524@emout02.mail.aol.com> Subject: A Highly Significant Quote from Ruhiyyih Khanum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.1453.emout02.mail.aol.com.858288891" X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 1904 --PART.BOUNDARY.0.1453.emout02.mail.aol.com.858288891 Content-ID: <0_1453_858288891@emout02.mail.aol.com.36233> Content-type: text/plain Dearest Baha'i family: Please excuse this new post that I think is highly significant in light of the other brief information that I have mailed to you. My intention is good. There is not desire in me to harm anyone or to cause mischief - only to provide you with informato=ion about Baha'u'llah's Covenant that has probably been overlooked. Love and Light to all of you, Your Baha'i brother, Brent Reed --PART.BOUNDARY.0.1453.emout02.mail.aol.com.858288891 Content-ID: <0_1453_858288891@emout02.mail.aol.com.36234> Content-type: text/plain; name="25YEAR~1.KHA" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
A Significant Quote by Ruhiyyih Khanum Concerning the Gu=
ardianship
=0D
"The storms that ["these prominent backsliders"] have loosed upon=
 us have not only driven the roots of our Faith in Baha'u'llah's system d=
eeper, but have demonstrated to us that, for the first time in history, A=
 RELIGION HAS BEEN GIVEN TO MEN WHICH CANNOT BE SPLIT UP INTO SECTS,
for =
the two Wills--those of Baha''u'llah and the Master--are so strongly cons=
tructed and so authentic beyond a shadow of a doubt, that IT IS IMPOSSIBL=
E TO DIVORCE THE BODY OF THE TECHINGS FROM THEIR PROVISIONS [the
provisio=
ns of the Wills of Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha].  THE PRINCIPLE OF SUCCE=
SSORSHIP, ENDOWED WITH THE RIGHT OF DIVINE INTERPRETATION, IS THE
VERY HU=
B OF THE CAUSE INTO WHICH ITS DOCTRINES AND LAWS FIT LIKE THE SPOKES
OF A=
 WHEEL--TEAR OUT THE HUB AND YOU HAVE TO THROW AWAY THE WHOLE
THING." =
 (Emphasis added)
=0D
"Twenty-Five Years of the Guardianship", Ruhiyyih Khanum, Haifa, Palestin=
e, November 1946
--PART.BOUNDARY.0.1453.emout02.mail.aol.com.858288891-- From - Sat Feb 15 05:48:18 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.60) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:02:15 -0500 Message-ID: <33047225.654@moa.net> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:09:42 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups To: Dr Steve Burgess Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal References: <5du2o7$b0i@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <5dvk11$3c1@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1120 Dr Steve Burgess wrote: > > Thank you for posting this message. Again, the air is a bit clearer. > Steve > And now it's time to clamp back down before anyone asks any more uncomfortable questions.... Or says anything they shouldn't.... > David Langness wrote: > > > > [MODERATORS NOTE: The moderators are aware of the inconsistancy > > between this post and the call for a hiatus on the discussion of the > > Dialogue affair on the newsgroup. However, the moderators are also very > > concerned about fairness and accuracy. Therefore we are forwarding > > this note to the newsgroup. It may be inconsistant, but it seems > > like the right thing to do. -- mods] > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > While I am not currently on srb, a few people have forwarded me > > some recent posts regarding Dialogue magazine and the stillborn > > article "A Modest Proposal," and I wanted to set the record > > straight regarding that article's now-controversial title. > > I feel like eating babies.... We'd save so much money on welfare.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 15 05:48:20 1997 Received: from usr03.primenet.com (206.165.5.103) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:09:29 -0500 Received: (from rdetweil@localhost) by usr03.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA27582; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:15:02 -0700 (MST) From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199702141415.HAA27582@usr03.primenet.com> Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal To: @moa.net Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:15:00 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <33047217.5890@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Feb 14, 97 09:09:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 2390 Dear Fred, The following is being returned to you. The sarcastic comments are not conducive to respectful consultation. If you would like to edit this so that your views are expressed without belittlement of the previous poster, I would be happy to post it. BTW, should I just go ahead and cc: news.groups on all your rejects during the RFD period or are you happy to do that yourself? :-) Dick Detweiler co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-28.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@moa.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:09:27 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 31 > Message-ID: <33047217.5890@moa.net> > References: <5du2o7$b0i@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <5dvk11$3c1@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) > To: Dr Steve Burgess > Content-Length: 1091 > > Dr Steve Burgess wrote: > > > > Thank you for posting this message. Again, the air is a bit clearer. > > Steve > > > > And now it's time to clamp back down before anyone asks any more > uncomfortable questions.... Or says anything they shouldn't.... > > > David Langness wrote: > > > > > > [MODERATORS NOTE: The moderators are aware of the inconsistancy > > > between this post and the call for a hiatus on the discussion of the > > > Dialogue affair on the newsgroup. However, the moderators are also very > > > concerned about fairness and accuracy. Therefore we are forwarding > > > this note to the newsgroup. It may be inconsistant, but it seems > > > like the right thing to do. -- mods] > > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > > > While I am not currently on srb, a few people have forwarded me > > > some recent posts regarding Dialogue magazine and the stillborn > > > article "A Modest Proposal," and I wanted to set the record > > > straight regarding that article's now-controversial title. > > > > > I feel like eating babies.... We'd save so much money on welfare.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > From - Wed Jan 29 05:52:49 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.50) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 05:09:36 -0500 Message-ID: <32EF239D.529F@moa.net> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 05:17:01 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: moanet@moa.net CC: jeff@oakland.edu Subject: A News NNTP error occurred: posting failed, sorry Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 3174 I keep getting the above error when I try to post to some newsgroups, and am not sure I'm properly receiving messages. I've included a few messages to Jeff just to make sure you're aware of the problems. Is the soc.religion.* hierarchy set up correctly? Most of the trouble seems to be newsgroups in that ordering. I'd appreciate any help or suggestions. ____________________________________ On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote to Jeff Maracini: > I keep getting an error message when I try to post to newsgroups on > MOA.net: > > A News (NNTP) error occurred: posting failed, sorry > > I'm working with Christopher Stone at the group-mentors for USEnet > at Princeton trying to get a RFD for a new newsgroup discussed and > voted on. This problem is preventing me from properly responding > to the discussion and half the time has run out for the 30 day > discussion period. Chris Stone has emailed me asking why I'm not > joining in all the discussion in news.groups, but when I use the > news browser to download from news.groups, I get only old messages, > my own, and a few new ones, not the responses he says should be > there. > > I thought the problem might have been Netscape 2.02, so I upgraded on > Saturday to Netscape Gold but it has not made any difference. That > seems to confirm it's a server problem or something. I'm using Windows > 95 too. > > Urgently, I ask for your suggestions? > Jeff Marraccini wrote Jan. 28: > > Could you tell me how you are reaching the MOAnet? Are you dialing into > one of our dialup pools? What phone number? What news program are you > using? > My wife's a middle school teacher in Rochester, and I'm dialing in from home on 370-0039. I don't know if it's a pool. I use Netscape Gold for email and news. We have to use atlas.moa.net for email and zeus.moa.net for news. Could that be part of the problem? I've tried to use atlas and zeus for both news and email but it doesn't seem to work. > In the interim, you can use the nnpost program on zeus.moa.net to get your > articles out until this can be cleared up. There's no reason to further > delay your responses. > Jeff, I don't know what nnpost is. Could you explain how to hook in to it? The NNTP server I have under options on Netscape is zeus. Does that matter? Do I just stick in nnpost there? > You can reach all of the members of the MOAnet core team by emailing > moanet@moa.net. > >One other thing: which Usenet group are you trying to post to? news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, soc.religion.bahai, soc.culture.iranian, soc.culture.israel, soc.rights.human, talk.religion.misc, talk.religion.buddhism, soc.atheism, and the rest of the soc.religion hierarchy. The two news ones and soc.religion.bahai are the consistently the most trouble but I can't be sure because I don't know if there are messages being posted on them without my seeing them. My group-mentor and someone else has confirmed the appearance of messages I've never seen only for those three. Again, I'm grateful for anything you can do to help! From - Tue Jan 28 16:51:28 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32EE74E0.33C7@moa.net> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:51:28 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: moanet@moanet Subject: A News NNTP error occurred; posting failed, sorry Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 3060 I keep getting the above error when I try to post to some newsgroups, and am not sure I'm properly receiving messages. I've included a few messages to Jeff just to make sure you're aware of the problems. I'd appreciate any help or suggestions. ____________________________________ On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote to Jeff Maracini: > I keep getting an error message when I try to post to newsgroups on > MOA.net: > > A News (NNTP) error occurred: posting failed, sorry > > I'm working with Christopher Stone at the group-mentors for USEnet > at Princeton trying to get a RFD for a new newsgroup discussed and > voted on. This problem is preventing me from properly responding > to the discussion and half the time has run out for the 30 day > discussion period. Chris Stone has emailed me asking why I'm not > joining in all the discussion in news.groups, but when I use the > news browser to download from news.groups, I get only old messages, > my own, and a few new ones, not the responses he says should be > there. > > I thought the problem might have been Netscape 2.02, so I upgraded on > Saturday to Netscape Gold but it has not made any difference. That > seems to confirm it's a server problem or something. I'm using Windows > 95 too. > > Urgently, I ask for your suggestions? > Jeff Marraccini wrote Jan. 28: > > Could you tell me how you are reaching the MOAnet? Are you dialing into > one of our dialup pools? What phone number? What news program are you > using? > My wife's a middle school teacher in Rochester, and I'm dialing in from home on 370-0039. I don't know if it's a pool. I use Netscape Gold for email and news. We have to use atlas.moa.net for email and zeus.moa.net for news. Could that be part of the problem? I've tried to use atlas and zeus for both news and email but it doesn't seem to work. > In the interim, you can use the nnpost program on zeus.moa.net to get your > articles out until this can be cleared up. There's no reason to further > delay your responses. > Jeff, I don't know what nnpost is. Could you explain how to hook in to it? The NNTP server I have under options on Netscape is zeus. Does that matter? Do I just stick in nnpost there? > You can reach all of the members of the MOAnet core team by emailing > moanet@moa.net. > >One other thing: which Usenet group are you trying to post to? news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, soc.religion.bahai, soc.culture.iranian, soc.culture.israel, soc.rights.human, talk.religion.misc, talk.religion.buddhism, soc.atheism, and the rest of the soc.religion hierarchy. The two news ones and soc.religion.bahai are the consistently the most trouble but I can't be sure because I don't know if there are messages being posted on them without my seeing them. My group-mentor and someone else has confirmed the appearance of messages I've never seen only for those three. Again, I'm grateful for anything you can do to help! From - Sat Apr 19 05:44:38 1997 >From FG@hotmail.com Sat Apr 19 02:35:23 1997 Received: (qmail 14656 invoked from network); 19 Apr 1997 09:34:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO default) (199.179.42.119) by hm3.hotmail.com with SMTP; 19 Apr 1997 09:34:52 -0000 Message-ID: <33589247.1806@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:37:11 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anser@kamla.brain.net.pk, 3arb@qlink.queensu.ca, priven@best.com, arm@chass.utoronto.ca, afshin.afrashteh@utoronto.ca, matuli_a@marlin.navsea.navy.mil, iskandar@EESUN2.tamu.edu, forumbahai@es.co.nz, allenp5@lesbois.com, ansharif@AOL.COM, Rafiq@Colorado.edu, mughal@alumni.caltech.edu, babak.mohajerin@aus.deuba.com, batkhan@ihug.co.nz, BobSolem@aol.com, bon_giovanni@juno.com, bmathieu@micron.net, BrentReed@aol.com, bgraham@emerald.tufts.edu, BugDaddy@cris.com, woodgold@seismo.nrcan.gc.ca, chughes@commnet.edu, estep@hotmail.com, cjdpcssd@mail.ims-1.com, clarsen@cfd.jsc.nasa.gov, positive@marsweb.com, dan@cthulhu.control.com, DaveCrnll@aol.com, dbowie@sas.upenn.edu, 72110.2126@compuserve.com, deadlock@one.net, mirele@xmission.com CC: dfbaker@panix.com, DeDanan@aol.com, Dlandhill@aol.com, freedman@netmedia.net.il, andrew@utcc.utoronto.ca, hmirza@yesic.com, irauf@Phys.UAlberta.CA, ejohnsto@atcon.com, EdvardJ@simi.is, ab248@freenet.carleton.ca, 4emb1@qlink.queensu.ca, pierceed@sswdserver.sswd.csus.edu, sindiogi@nmsu.edu, edn@msn.fullfeed.com, uppal@acsu.buffalo.edu, 3fa1@qlink.queensu.ca, fateh.ahmad@cressoft.com.pk, fran@crhc.uiuc.edu, fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu, Gabriel.Salman.Lenz@directory.Reed.EDU, gedaliah@panix.com, rsaltd@wctc.net, wgilmore@cris.com, ggw@wolves.durham.nc.us, seeker@leland.stanford.edu, hamid01@paknet1.ptc.pk, bhayee@cyberus.ca, htana@ee.mcgill.ca, humayun.ahmed@cressoft.com.pk, ibraheem.malik@cressoft.com.pk, iahmad@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca, pimentel@ultranet.com, jason.roberts@mail.admin.wisc.edu, usdaebcl@hol.gr, jmalik@mailstorm.dot.gov, jgoldberg@megsinet.net, JKLintzBFA@aol.com, guardian@iinet.net.au, johnd@northlink.com, jdg@rahul.net, jwalbrid@indiana.edu, johnn@jolt.mpx.com.au, JohnWrldPc@aol.com, maitreya@worldnet.att.net, jrcole@umich.edu, pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu, katracha@juno.com, seeker@indiana.edu, keillan@quest.cc.purdue.edu, khan@kherps.brain.com.pk, kjohnsto@Fox.nstn.ca, LaAeterna@aol.com, lilandbr@scn.org, lisarm@cei.net, aslam@ulysses.att.com, msabet@mail.net, MahmudTaha@aol.com, mahsa@psy.uwa.edu.au, mansur.sheikh@cressoft.com.pk, mlp@sover.net, masnas@paknet1.ptc.pk, Massoud.Ajami@sdsu.edu, techind@ilcnet.com, Member1700@aol.com, bn872@freenet.carleton.ca, mibon@mailhost.cinet.co.cn, mbkafes@bestweb.net, naveed@nather.brain.com.pk, mubasher@ffclhr.brain.com.pk, aslam@openix.com, nahil@ece.utexas.edu, Nefratiri@aol.com, nkeiths@wavefront.com, obfusa@mack.rt66.com, olav@viking.mv.com, paustin@astro.ocis.temple.edu, pjktg@itis.com, Peace144@aol.com, rosss@u.washington.edu, rafiq@ksc9.th.com, regmor@rof.net, rehmans@advocate.sdnpk.undp.org, RMckin6046@aol.com, fstrpba@umac.mo, white-wolf-arts@juno.com, rodney684@silicon.email.net, rbic@unix.infoserve.net, rtower@bwc.org, lbhollin@uxmail.ust.hk, think@ucla.edu, ahmadi@why.net, mrscotty@minn.net, shafique@compuserve.com, samin@phnet.sph.jhu.edu, sharir@acel.net.au, shank210@clubhouse.email.net, Sharaf94@aol.com, Shenassa@worldnet.att.net, st010517@brownvm.brown.edu, ssemler@datalynx.com, stuart@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz, ss@look1.apmaths.uwo.ca, soleman@unixg.ubc.ca, finc27@pop.uni-dortmund.de, fnord@odyssee.net, trbutl@most.fw.hac.com, maley@ism.net, thriley@ccia.com, paxil@cancom.net, uzair@xds.brain.com.pk, 3sv12@qlink.queensu.ca, VWoodsong@aol.com, sscholl@jeffnet.org Subject: Accessing alt.religion.bahai Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 2889 [Since I've received more than 20 messages from people who voted YES for talk.religion.bahai to the effect that they were either unaware that alt.religion.bahai had been created or couldn't access it, I'm emailing you this post which contains advice on accessing it. I'm working on trying to find an individual or institution to sponser a LISTSERV or email echo so that anyone with email capability can access alt.religion.bahai] Subject: alt.religion.bahai newsgroup created From: grobe@netins.net (Jonathan Grobe) Date: 1997/04/03 Message-Id: Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,alt.config,news.groups,soc.culture.iranian,alt.religion.islam,talk.religion.misc [More Headers] The vote for the unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai has just failed 157:691. But given that there were 157 Yes votes I believe there is sufficient interest for an alt.* group. alt.religion.bahai, a newsgroup for the discussion of the Bahai faith has just been created. The message to create the group may take from a couple hours to a few days to reach your site. Many news administrators only add new alt.* groups on user request. So if it has not been added to your site in the next few days ask your news administrator to add it: Write to him at the address news or usenet at your site or to the technical support people there (address: support)). Because of the poor propagation of new alt groups it will be a while before a significant amount of traffic shows up. [Adapted from the talk.religion.bahai proposal] RATIONALE: alt.religion.bahai All newsgroups and listservs given to the discussion of the Bahai faith are moderated. A need exists for an unmoderated forum, and this proposed newsgroup would meet that need. It is intended that alt.religion.bahai will complement, rather than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai. The establishment of unmoderated companion groups is a well-accepted practice on Usenet. CHARTER: alt.religion.bahai All topics or ideas relevant to the Bahai faith -- its history, teachings, theology -- and so on would be appropriate areas for discussion. Crossposting of articles not specifically relevant to the Bahai faith is strongly discouraged. Also discouraged are personal messages, large ASCII graphics, special-format files, and any postings of a purely commercial nature. Readers are asked not to start or prolong flamewars and excessive crossposts. Articles may be crossposted to soc.religion.bahai -- subject, of course, to the approval of the moderator of that group. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to the charter above. -- Jonathan Grobe -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Jun 22 07:24:38 1980 >From woodgold@seismo.nrcan.gc.ca Mon Apr 21 08:21:11 1997 Received: from saw19.nrcan.gc.ca by richter (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA15942; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:19:49 -0400 Received: by saw19.nrcan.gc.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA10689; Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:19:02 -0400 Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 11:19:02 -0400 From: woodgold@seismo.nrcan.gc.ca (Catherine woodgold) Message-Id: <199704211519.LAA10689@saw19.nrcan.gc.ca> To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Accessing alt.religion.bahai X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 122 Note that it is also possible to access the newsgroup through dejanews: https://dejanews.com/forms/dnq.html Cathy From - Sat Apr 19 05:37:12 1997 BCC: FG@hotmail.com Message-ID: <33589247.1806@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:37:11 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anser@kamla.brain.net.pk, 3arb@qlink.queensu.ca, priven@best.com, arm@chass.utoronto.ca, afshin.afrashteh@utoronto.ca, matuli_a@marlin.navsea.navy.mil, iskandar@EESUN2.tamu.edu, forumbahai@es.co.nz, allenp5@lesbois.com, ansharif@AOL.COM, Rafiq@Colorado.edu, mughal@alumni.caltech.edu, babak.mohajerin@aus.deuba.com, batkhan@ihug.co.nz, BobSolem@aol.com, bon_giovanni@juno.com, bmathieu@micron.net, BrentReed@aol.com, bgraham@emerald.tufts.edu, BugDaddy@cris.com, woodgold@seismo.nrcan.gc.ca, chughes@commnet.edu, estep@hotmail.com, cjdpcssd@mail.ims-1.com, clarsen@cfd.jsc.nasa.gov, positive@marsweb.com, dan@cthulhu.control.com, DaveCrnll@aol.com, dbowie@sas.upenn.edu, 72110.2126@compuserve.com, deadlock@one.net, mirele@xmission.com CC: dfbaker@panix.com, DeDanan@aol.com, Dlandhill@aol.com, freedman@netmedia.net.il, andrew@utcc.utoronto.ca, hmirza@yesic.com, irauf@Phys.UAlberta.CA, ejohnsto@atcon.com, EdvardJ@simi.is, ab248@freenet.carleton.ca, 4emb1@qlink.queensu.ca, pierceed@sswdserver.sswd.csus.edu, sindiogi@nmsu.edu, edn@msn.fullfeed.com, uppal@acsu.buffalo.edu, 3fa1@qlink.queensu.ca, fateh.ahmad@cressoft.com.pk, fran@crhc.uiuc.edu, fbaker@ncsa.uiuc.edu, Gabriel.Salman.Lenz@directory.Reed.EDU, gedaliah@panix.com, rsaltd@wctc.net, wgilmore@cris.com, ggw@wolves.durham.nc.us, seeker@leland.stanford.edu, hamid01@paknet1.ptc.pk, bhayee@cyberus.ca, htana@ee.mcgill.ca, humayun.ahmed@cressoft.com.pk, ibraheem.malik@cressoft.com.pk, iahmad@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca, pimentel@ultranet.com, jason.roberts@mail.admin.wisc.edu, usdaebcl@hol.gr, jmalik@mailstorm.dot.gov, jgoldberg@megsinet.net, JKLintzBFA@aol.com, guardian@iinet.net.au, johnd@northlink.com, jdg@rahul.net, jwalbrid@indiana.edu, johnn@jolt.mpx.com.au, JohnWrldPc@aol.com, maitreya@worldnet.att.net, jrcole@umich.edu, pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu, katracha@juno.com, seeker@indiana.edu, keillan@quest.cc.purdue.edu, khan@kherps.brain.com.pk, kjohnsto@Fox.nstn.ca, LaAeterna@aol.com, lilandbr@scn.org, lisarm@cei.net, aslam@ulysses.att.com, msabet@mail.net, MahmudTaha@aol.com, mahsa@psy.uwa.edu.au, mansur.sheikh@cressoft.com.pk, mlp@sover.net, masnas@paknet1.ptc.pk, Massoud.Ajami@sdsu.edu, techind@ilcnet.com, Member1700@aol.com, bn872@freenet.carleton.ca, mibon@mailhost.cinet.co.cn, mbkafes@bestweb.net, naveed@nather.brain.com.pk, mubasher@ffclhr.brain.com.pk, aslam@openix.com, nahil@ece.utexas.edu, Nefratiri@aol.com, nkeiths@wavefront.com, obfusa@mack.rt66.com, olav@viking.mv.com, paustin@astro.ocis.temple.edu, pjktg@itis.com, Peace144@aol.com, rosss@u.washington.edu, rafiq@ksc9.th.com, regmor@rof.net, rehmans@advocate.sdnpk.undp.org, RMckin6046@aol.com, fstrpba@umac.mo, white-wolf-arts@juno.com, rodney684@silicon.email.net, rbic@unix.infoserve.net, rtower@bwc.org, lbhollin@uxmail.ust.hk, think@ucla.edu, ahmadi@why.net, mrscotty@minn.net, shafique@compuserve.com, samin@phnet.sph.jhu.edu, sharir@acel.net.au, shank210@clubhouse.email.net, Sharaf94@aol.com, Shenassa@worldnet.att.net, st010517@brownvm.brown.edu, ssemler@datalynx.com, stuart@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz, ss@look1.apmaths.uwo.ca, soleman@unixg.ubc.ca, finc27@pop.uni-dortmund.de, fnord@odyssee.net, trbutl@most.fw.hac.com, maley@ism.net, thriley@ccia.com, paxil@cancom.net, uzair@xds.brain.com.pk, 3sv12@qlink.queensu.ca, VWoodsong@aol.com, sscholl@jeffnet.org Subject: Accessing alt.religion.bahai Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 2889 [Since I've received more than 20 messages from people who voted YES for talk.religion.bahai to the effect that they were either unaware that alt.religion.bahai had been created or couldn't access it, I'm emailing you this post which contains advice on accessing it. I'm working on trying to find an individual or institution to sponser a LISTSERV or email echo so that anyone with email capability can access alt.religion.bahai] Subject: alt.religion.bahai newsgroup created From: grobe@netins.net (Jonathan Grobe) Date: 1997/04/03 Message-Id: Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,alt.config,news.groups,soc.culture.iranian,alt.religion.islam,talk.religion.misc [More Headers] The vote for the unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai has just failed 157:691. But given that there were 157 Yes votes I believe there is sufficient interest for an alt.* group. alt.religion.bahai, a newsgroup for the discussion of the Bahai faith has just been created. The message to create the group may take from a couple hours to a few days to reach your site. Many news administrators only add new alt.* groups on user request. So if it has not been added to your site in the next few days ask your news administrator to add it: Write to him at the address news or usenet at your site or to the technical support people there (address: support)). Because of the poor propagation of new alt groups it will be a while before a significant amount of traffic shows up. [Adapted from the talk.religion.bahai proposal] RATIONALE: alt.religion.bahai All newsgroups and listservs given to the discussion of the Bahai faith are moderated. A need exists for an unmoderated forum, and this proposed newsgroup would meet that need. It is intended that alt.religion.bahai will complement, rather than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai. The establishment of unmoderated companion groups is a well-accepted practice on Usenet. CHARTER: alt.religion.bahai All topics or ideas relevant to the Bahai faith -- its history, teachings, theology -- and so on would be appropriate areas for discussion. Crossposting of articles not specifically relevant to the Bahai faith is strongly discouraged. Also discouraged are personal messages, large ASCII graphics, special-format files, and any postings of a purely commercial nature. Readers are asked not to start or prolong flamewars and excessive crossposts. Articles may be crossposted to soc.religion.bahai -- subject, of course, to the approval of the moderator of that group. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to the charter above. -- Jonathan Grobe -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Apr 10 08:10:54 1997 >From brentreed@aol.com Thu Mar 13 10:58:45 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA11190; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:36:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:36:12 -0500 (EST) From: BrentReed@aol.com Message-ID: <970313133608_686953944@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: mbkafes@bestweb.net, sindiogi@nmsu.edu, cna00185@wvnvm.wvnet.edu, jsturdiv@capaccess.org, FG@hotmail.com, rcmolden@students.wisc.edu, smsmith@mail.cybertrails.com, StarNWest@aol.com, GTOInc@aol.com, Mewwster@aol.com, pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu, s.mc_glinn@thiusnet.leidenuniv.nl, haukness@tenet.edu, smaneck@berry.edu, Steve.Burgess@pixie.co.za, dmcadam@madriver.com, math5ijf@math.canterbury.ac.nz, AZY27A@prodigy.com, AdjCSAACWA@aol.com, ntc@usbnc.org, ablakeson@usbnc.org, wilmette_institute@usbnc.org, pioneer@usbnc.org, deandobbert@delphi.com, Bobcharnes@aol.com, alexr@umich.edu, suehaas@ksu.ksu.edu, bosch@usbnc.org, richs@microsoft.com, gposey@usbnc.org, larry@vexcel.com, usbro@usbnc.org, cfblack@omni.cc.purdue.edu, bahaichr@bssl.umd.edu, louhelen@usbnc.org, nabi@usbnc.org, lyancy@usbnc.org, cstanwood@usbnc.org, tgp1@cornell.edu, healy@pipeline.com, Archaelim@aol.com, DRanchuk@aol.com, WMoore4491@aol.com, iolson@smiley.mitre.org, DEBRAYTON@aol.com, finance@usbnc.org, PayamA@aol.com, rstockman@usbnc.org, Atohk@aol.com, Ladiri@aol.com, community@usbnc.org Subject: Additional Information That Might Be Helpful to Understand My Decision MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.15020.emout19.mail.aol.com.858278168" X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 9104 --PART.BOUNDARY.0.15020.emout19.mail.aol.com.858278168 Content-ID: <0_15020_858278168@emout19.mail.aol.com.157288> Content-type: text/plain Here is some additional information to help you understand my decision to withdraw from my former affiliation with the organization loyal to the so-called current "Universal House of Justice." Love and Light to you, Your Baha'i brother, Brent Reed --PART.BOUNDARY.0.15020.emout19.mail.aol.com.858278168 Content-ID: <0_15020_858278168@emout19.mail.aol.com.157289> Content-type: text/plain; name="SHOGHI~1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
Dear friends:
=0D
      I have come across a two letters written on behalf of Shoghi Effend=
i that I would like to share with all of you in light of your interest in=
 putting together the zigsaw puzzle of the Faith, that seems to have some=
 missing pieces.  Only when we find these pieces can we begin to get a cl=
earer image of what the Faith is supposed to be like.  These letters migh=
t help you, by raising some important questions that I hope will cause yo=
u to go on your own search for the rest of the missing pieces.
=0D
      I was responsible for introducing my Local Spiritual Assembly to th=
e well documented evidence that had convinced me that the Covenant had be=
en tragically, violated out of ignorance at least, by the Hands.  It was =
not a frivolous act for me to embrace the Baha'i Faith under the living G=
uardian, Joel Bray Marangella.  I have been an active Baha'i with the Wil=
mette-Haifa group for 16 years.  For years I desired to investigate fully=
 what happened after Shoghi Effendi's death, but didn't know where to loo=
k.  It wasn't until I purchased the Yellow Pages on CD-Rom that I was abl=
e to identify all Baha'i organizations within the United States and begin=
 my search.  Prior to commencing my initial search, I had assumed incorre=
ctly that the Missoula, Montana followers of Pepe Remey represented the s=
o-called Covenant Breakers.  Since they were a complete turn-off to me-an=
d it was obvious that they didn't have either the truth or the capacity t=
o lead the Faith, I nearly stopped my search.  But I continued.  Next, I =
started sorting out the various splinter groups that each claimed to repr=
esent the right path.  The evidence I uncovered was so overwhelming that =
I had to at the very least, end my affiliation with the Baha'i administra=
tion under the "Universal House of Justice."  I compiled some of the most=
 essential evidence-entirely from Baha'i documents that are accepted as a=
uthoritative by sans-Guardian Baha'is-and presented it to the members of =
the Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of Huntington, West Virginia on Dec=
ember 29, 1996, in a five hour marathon which concluded with the unanimou=
s decision that the Baha'i administrative order that we were a part of ha=
d violated the Covenant of Baha'u'llah, and that the successorship had be=
en properly passed to Joel Bray Marangella, an American born in Lynn, Mas=
sachusetts, who is the current living Guardian of the Baha'i Faith (tempo=
rarily called the Orthodox Baha'i Faith).  The full details of how this o=
ften bewildering, frightening, and heart wrenching train of events contin=
ued in succession up to the Third Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, is nothin=
g short of awe inspiring.  In Shoghi Effendi's Spiritual Testament, "The =
Dispensation of Baha'u'llah:" (Administrative Section), we are reminded b=
y him, that although the Guardians are the authorized interpreters of the=
 Writings, they are simply human beings not only infinitely inferior to t=
he Manifestation of God, but inferior to 'Abdu'l-Baha as well.  In this d=
ocument which is an elaboration of the Will and Testament, Shoghi Effendi=
 also proscribes their infallibility, limiting it to interpretation and d=
ealing with matters of the Faith only.  Baha'u'llah meant most of all tha=
t His Faith must remain flexible.  Without the existence of the interpret=
ive function of the Guardianship, through the coming centuries of Baha'u'=
llah's Dispensation, His Faith would become a distorted dead letter of la=
w that would suffocate the spirituality and prosperity of future generati=
ons of human beings.
=0D
Light and love,
=0D
Brent Reed
=0D

Letter Written on Behalf of Shoghi Effendi by his Personal Secretary, Bah=
a'i News, June 1949
=0D

"The Guardian, like the Master before him, has not considered it =

advisable to as yet permit any person or Assembly to put another =

person out of the Cause of God.  There is a sharp disstinction =

between depriving a believer of his voting rights, which is a severe =

disciplinary measure and not a spiritual sanction, and pronouncing a =

former believer to be a truly spiritually diseased soul, a soul in =

the condition the Master referred to when, in His last cable to =

America before His ascension, He said: 'he who sitteth with a leper =

catcheth leprosy'.  The Guardian has, within the last few years, =

considered the National Assemblies strong enough to wield the =

instrument of sanction in the sense of depriving a Baha'i of his =

voting rights.  But no one but himself can pronounce a person to be =

in that diseased condition we call 'Covenant-breaking', and no one =

but he can reinstate a Covenant-breaker.  No National Assembly has =

been given this right and cannot, therefore, review the question or =

reinstate any one.  All any National Assembly can do is to report to =

the Guardian if they are approached by a Covenant-breaker, and then =

the Guardian will take action.  It is a pity that some of the =

Western friends, with remarkable naivete, do not grasp the fact that =

there is absolutely nothing keeping those who have broken the =

Covenant, whether Baha'u'llah's or the Master's out of the Cause of =

God except their _own inner spiritually sick condition._  If they =

were sound, instead of diseased, and wanted to enter the service of =

the Faith, they would apply direct to the Guardian and he would be =

able to adjudge of their sincerity and, if sincere, would welcome =

them into the ranks of the faithful as he did with Sydney Sprague.  =

Unfortunately, a man who is ill is not made well just by asserting =

there is nothing wrong with him!  Facts, actual states, are what =

count.  Probably no group of people in the world have softer tongues, =

or proclaim more loudly their innocence, than those who in their =

heart of hearts, and  by their every act, are enemies of the Center =

of the Covenant.  The Master well knew this and that is why He said =

we must shun their company, but pray for them.  If you put a leper =

in a room with healthy people, he cannot catch their health; on the =

contrary they are very likely to catch his horrible ailment."
=0D
Baha'i News, June 1949, p.2
=0D

****This is a copy of a letter written by Shoghi Effendi through his s=
ecretary to an individual believer, published in the Baha'i News of the U=
nited States, June 1950.  Remember, Shoghi Effendi died November 4, 1957.=
  This letter was written less thatn seven years before he died.  He alre=
ady knew that he would have no children of his own, and all of his family=
 members eligible for the Guardianship had violated the Covenant and yet =
he was insistent on the continuation of the Guardianship!
                                       ********************************
=0D
     "He feels that if...ponders more deeply about the fundamentals of Di=
vine Revelation, she will come to understand the Guardianship.  Once the =
mind and heart have grasped the fact that God guides men through a Mouthp=
iece, a human being, a Prophet, infallible and unerring, it is only a log=
ical projection of this acceptance to also accept the station of 'Abdu'l-=
Baha and the Guardians.  The Guardians are the evidence of the maturity o=
f mankind in the sense that at long last men have progressed to the point=
 of having one world management for human affairs.  In the spiritual real=
m, they have also reached the point where God could leave, in human hands=
 (i.e. the Guardians'), guided directly by the Bab and Baha'u'llah, as th=
e Master states in His Will, the affairs of His Faith for this Dispensati=
on.  This is what is meant by 'this is the day which will not be followed=
 by night'.  In this Dispensation, divine guidance flows on to us in this=
 world after the Prophet's ascension, through, first the Master, and then=
 the Guardians.  If a person can accept Baha'u'llah's function, it should=
 not present any difficulty to them to also accept what He has ordained i=
n a divinely guided individual in matters pertaining to the Faith."
=0D
Question:  Do you think Shoghi Effendi was planning on the continuation o=
f the Guardianship?
=0D
--PART.BOUNDARY.0.15020.emout19.mail.aol.com.858278168-- From - Wed Apr 09 08:12:22 1997 >From brentreed@aol.com Thu Mar 13 10:58:45 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA11190; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:36:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:36:12 -0500 (EST) From: BrentReed@aol.com Message-ID: <970313133608_686953944@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: mbkafes@bestweb.net, sindiogi@nmsu.edu, cna00185@wvnvm.wvnet.edu, jsturdiv@capaccess.org, FG@hotmail.com, rcmolden@students.wisc.edu, smsmith@mail.cybertrails.com, StarNWest@aol.com, GTOInc@aol.com, Mewwster@aol.com, pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu, s.mc_glinn@thiusnet.leidenuniv.nl, haukness@tenet.edu, smaneck@berry.edu, Steve.Burgess@pixie.co.za, dmcadam@madriver.com, math5ijf@math.canterbury.ac.nz, AZY27A@prodigy.com, AdjCSAACWA@aol.com, ntc@usbnc.org, ablakeson@usbnc.org, wilmette_institute@usbnc.org, pioneer@usbnc.org, deandobbert@delphi.com, Bobcharnes@aol.com, alexr@umich.edu, suehaas@ksu.ksu.edu, bosch@usbnc.org, richs@microsoft.com, gposey@usbnc.org, larry@vexcel.com, usbro@usbnc.org, cfblack@omni.cc.purdue.edu, bahaichr@bssl.umd.edu, louhelen@usbnc.org, nabi@usbnc.org, lyancy@usbnc.org, cstanwood@usbnc.org, tgp1@cornell.edu, healy@pipeline.com, Archaelim@aol.com, DRanchuk@aol.com, WMoore4491@aol.com, iolson@smiley.mitre.org, DEBRAYTON@aol.com, finance@usbnc.org, PayamA@aol.com, rstockman@usbnc.org, Atohk@aol.com, Ladiri@aol.com, community@usbnc.org Subject: Additional Information That Might Be Helpful to Understand My Decision MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.15020.emout19.mail.aol.com.858278168" X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 9104 --PART.BOUNDARY.0.15020.emout19.mail.aol.com.858278168 Content-ID: <0_15020_858278168@emout19.mail.aol.com.157288> Content-type: text/plain Here is some additional information to help you understand my decision to withdraw from my former affiliation with the organization loyal to the so-called current "Universal House of Justice." Love and Light to you, Your Baha'i brother, Brent Reed --PART.BOUNDARY.0.15020.emout19.mail.aol.com.858278168 Content-ID: <0_15020_858278168@emout19.mail.aol.com.157289> Content-type: text/plain; name="SHOGHI~1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
Dear friends:
=0D
      I have come across a two letters written on behalf of Shoghi Effend=
i that I would like to share with all of you in light of your interest in=
 putting together the zigsaw puzzle of the Faith, that seems to have some=
 missing pieces.  Only when we find these pieces can we begin to get a cl=
earer image of what the Faith is supposed to be like.  These letters migh=
t help you, by raising some important questions that I hope will cause yo=
u to go on your own search for the rest of the missing pieces.
=0D
      I was responsible for introducing my Local Spiritual Assembly to th=
e well documented evidence that had convinced me that the Covenant had be=
en tragically, violated out of ignorance at least, by the Hands.  It was =
not a frivolous act for me to embrace the Baha'i Faith under the living G=
uardian, Joel Bray Marangella.  I have been an active Baha'i with the Wil=
mette-Haifa group for 16 years.  For years I desired to investigate fully=
 what happened after Shoghi Effendi's death, but didn't know where to loo=
k.  It wasn't until I purchased the Yellow Pages on CD-Rom that I was abl=
e to identify all Baha'i organizations within the United States and begin=
 my search.  Prior to commencing my initial search, I had assumed incorre=
ctly that the Missoula, Montana followers of Pepe Remey represented the s=
o-called Covenant Breakers.  Since they were a complete turn-off to me-an=
d it was obvious that they didn't have either the truth or the capacity t=
o lead the Faith, I nearly stopped my search.  But I continued.  Next, I =
started sorting out the various splinter groups that each claimed to repr=
esent the right path.  The evidence I uncovered was so overwhelming that =
I had to at the very least, end my affiliation with the Baha'i administra=
tion under the "Universal House of Justice."  I compiled some of the most=
 essential evidence-entirely from Baha'i documents that are accepted as a=
uthoritative by sans-Guardian Baha'is-and presented it to the members of =
the Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of Huntington, West Virginia on Dec=
ember 29, 1996, in a five hour marathon which concluded with the unanimou=
s decision that the Baha'i administrative order that we were a part of ha=
d violated the Covenant of Baha'u'llah, and that the successorship had be=
en properly passed to Joel Bray Marangella, an American born in Lynn, Mas=
sachusetts, who is the current living Guardian of the Baha'i Faith (tempo=
rarily called the Orthodox Baha'i Faith).  The full details of how this o=
ften bewildering, frightening, and heart wrenching train of events contin=
ued in succession up to the Third Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, is nothin=
g short of awe inspiring.  In Shoghi Effendi's Spiritual Testament, "The =
Dispensation of Baha'u'llah:" (Administrative Section), we are reminded b=
y him, that although the Guardians are the authorized interpreters of the=
 Writings, they are simply human beings not only infinitely inferior to t=
he Manifestation of God, but inferior to 'Abdu'l-Baha as well.  In this d=
ocument which is an elaboration of the Will and Testament, Shoghi Effendi=
 also proscribes their infallibility, limiting it to interpretation and d=
ealing with matters of the Faith only.  Baha'u'llah meant most of all tha=
t His Faith must remain flexible.  Without the existence of the interpret=
ive function of the Guardianship, through the coming centuries of Baha'u'=
llah's Dispensation, His Faith would become a distorted dead letter of la=
w that would suffocate the spirituality and prosperity of future generati=
ons of human beings.
=0D
Light and love,
=0D
Brent Reed
=0D

Letter Written on Behalf of Shoghi Effendi by his Personal Secretary, Bah=
a'i News, June 1949
=0D

"The Guardian, like the Master before him, has not considered it =

advisable to as yet permit any person or Assembly to put another =

person out of the Cause of God.  There is a sharp disstinction =

between depriving a believer of his voting rights, which is a severe =

disciplinary measure and not a spiritual sanction, and pronouncing a =

former believer to be a truly spiritually diseased soul, a soul in =

the condition the Master referred to when, in His last cable to =

America before His ascension, He said: 'he who sitteth with a leper =

catcheth leprosy'.  The Guardian has, within the last few years, =

considered the National Assemblies strong enough to wield the =

instrument of sanction in the sense of depriving a Baha'i of his =

voting rights.  But no one but himself can pronounce a person to be =

in that diseased condition we call 'Covenant-breaking', and no one =

but he can reinstate a Covenant-breaker.  No National Assembly has =

been given this right and cannot, therefore, review the question or =

reinstate any one.  All any National Assembly can do is to report to =

the Guardian if they are approached by a Covenant-breaker, and then =

the Guardian will take action.  It is a pity that some of the =

Western friends, with remarkable naivete, do not grasp the fact that =

there is absolutely nothing keeping those who have broken the =

Covenant, whether Baha'u'llah's or the Master's out of the Cause of =

God except their _own inner spiritually sick condition._  If they =

were sound, instead of diseased, and wanted to enter the service of =

the Faith, they would apply direct to the Guardian and he would be =

able to adjudge of their sincerity and, if sincere, would welcome =

them into the ranks of the faithful as he did with Sydney Sprague.  =

Unfortunately, a man who is ill is not made well just by asserting =

there is nothing wrong with him!  Facts, actual states, are what =

count.  Probably no group of people in the world have softer tongues, =

or proclaim more loudly their innocence, than those who in their =

heart of hearts, and  by their every act, are enemies of the Center =

of the Covenant.  The Master well knew this and that is why He said =

we must shun their company, but pray for them.  If you put a leper =

in a room with healthy people, he cannot catch their health; on the =

contrary they are very likely to catch his horrible ailment."
=0D
Baha'i News, June 1949, p.2
=0D

****This is a copy of a letter written by Shoghi Effendi through his s=
ecretary to an individual believer, published in the Baha'i News of the U=
nited States, June 1950.  Remember, Shoghi Effendi died November 4, 1957.=
  This letter was written less thatn seven years before he died.  He alre=
ady knew that he would have no children of his own, and all of his family=
 members eligible for the Guardianship had violated the Covenant and yet =
he was insistent on the continuation of the Guardianship!
                                       ********************************
=0D
     "He feels that if...ponders more deeply about the fundamentals of Di=
vine Revelation, she will come to understand the Guardianship.  Once the =
mind and heart have grasped the fact that God guides men through a Mouthp=
iece, a human being, a Prophet, infallible and unerring, it is only a log=
ical projection of this acceptance to also accept the station of 'Abdu'l-=
Baha and the Guardians.  The Guardians are the evidence of the maturity o=
f mankind in the sense that at long last men have progressed to the point=
 of having one world management for human affairs.  In the spiritual real=
m, they have also reached the point where God could leave, in human hands=
 (i.e. the Guardians'), guided directly by the Bab and Baha'u'llah, as th=
e Master states in His Will, the affairs of His Faith for this Dispensati=
on.  This is what is meant by 'this is the day which will not be followed=
 by night'.  In this Dispensation, divine guidance flows on to us in this=
 world after the Prophet's ascension, through, first the Master, and then=
 the Guardians.  If a person can accept Baha'u'llah's function, it should=
 not present any difficulty to them to also accept what He has ordained i=
n a divinely guided individual in matters pertaining to the Faith."
=0D
Question:  Do you think Shoghi Effendi was planning on the continuation o=
f the Guardianship?
=0D
--PART.BOUNDARY.0.15020.emout19.mail.aol.com.858278168-- From - Wed Feb 05 18:01:57 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.56) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 05 Feb 1997 07:09:10 -0500 Message-ID: <32F87A27.4BD2@moa.net> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 07:16:39 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: smsmith@mail.cybertrails.com Subject: Administrative and Spiritual Explusion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1671 Susan Maneck wrote: > > > > On Feb. 1 I had written: > > > > > The "Dialogue" affair was very complicated. [clip] > > > > I have since been in contact with the former editor of Dialogue who > > assures me that only two delegates received a copy of "A Modest > > Proposal." These two delegates were served on the > > editorial board of Dialogue and it was in that capacity that the > > copies were sent for their review. Apparently the National Spritiual > > Assembly got the mistaken impression that "dozens and dozens" of > > copies of this had been distributed to delegates prior to the > > National Convention. As I had attempted to convey in my original > > posting I do not think there is any reason to believe that anyone on > > the Dialogue staff was engaging in electioneering of any sort. I > > apologize if this post might have led anyone to think that this was > > the case. As you can see there have been a long series of terrible > > misunderstandings which led to unfoldment of these sorry events, many > > of which are difficult to untangle now. My hope is that we will all > > set aside our suspicions toward everyone involved on both sides of > > this issue for the sake of our love for Baha'u'llah and recognize > > that we all seek to serve Him in the best way we can. > > > > Susan > It doesn't change the fact that Dialogue was suppressed.... I was a subscriber, though largely appalled at the intellectual level and journalism, but felt they were at least making attempts to develop some kind of thoughtful discussion in the Bahai Faith. > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Wed Feb 05 07:16:39 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32F87A27.4BD2@moa.net> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 07:16:39 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: smsmith@mail.cybertrails.com Subject: Administrative and Spiritual Explusion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1673 Susan Maneck wrote: > > > > On Feb. 1 I had written: > > > > > The "Dialogue" affair was very complicated. [clip] > > > > I have since been in contact with the former editor of Dialogue who > > assures me that only two delegates received a copy of "A Modest > > Proposal." These two delegates were served on the > > editorial board of Dialogue and it was in that capacity that the > > copies were sent for their review. Apparently the National Spritiual > > Assembly got the mistaken impression that "dozens and dozens" of > > copies of this had been distributed to delegates prior to the > > National Convention. As I had attempted to convey in my original > > posting I do not think there is any reason to believe that anyone on > > the Dialogue staff was engaging in electioneering of any sort. I > > apologize if this post might have led anyone to think that this was > > the case. As you can see there have been a long series of terrible > > misunderstandings which led to unfoldment of these sorry events, many > > of which are difficult to untangle now. My hope is that we will all > > set aside our suspicions toward everyone involved on both sides of > > this issue for the sake of our love for Baha'u'llah and recognize > > that we all seek to serve Him in the best way we can. > > > > Susan > It doesn't change the fact that Dialogue was suppressed.... I was a subscriber, though largely appalled at the intellectual level and journalism, but felt they were at least making attempts to develop some kind of thoughtful discussion in the Bahai Faith. > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Wed Feb 05 07:05:22 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.59) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 16:59:56 -0500 Message-ID: <32F7B31E.45A2@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 17:07:26 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: smsmith@mail.cybertrails.com Subject: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1181 > Sen McGlinn wrote: > > > [clip] > > Well, I'm only halfway down your post, but I will leave the rest. I > > have the distinct impression that Baha'is as a whole are unaware of > > how the censorship review system works, and how publishing in the > > Baha'i framework works. > For examples of censored email messages see my postings to news.groups. > > Not a few have expressed surprise to me that > > there *was* such a system, while others - as we saw on srb a while > > ago - would like to see a system in which the National Assemblies > > first decide what the "Baha'i view" is and then get someone to write > > it. In between these it's hard to have a well-informed discussion. > > It really only affects writers and publishers in an immediate and > > financial way, so it is hard to explain the concerns to others. > > > > sigh > > > > Sen > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Sen McGlinn Sen.McGlinn@Bahai.NL > > *** > > Let the friends recall and ever bear in mind Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 04 17:07:26 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32F7B31E.45A2@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 17:07:26 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: smsmith@mail.cybertrails.com Subject: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1183 > Sen McGlinn wrote: > > > [clip] > > Well, I'm only halfway down your post, but I will leave the rest. I > > have the distinct impression that Baha'is as a whole are unaware of > > how the censorship review system works, and how publishing in the > > Baha'i framework works. > For examples of censored email messages see my postings to news.groups. > > Not a few have expressed surprise to me that > > there *was* such a system, while others - as we saw on srb a while > > ago - would like to see a system in which the National Assemblies > > first decide what the "Baha'i view" is and then get someone to write > > it. In between these it's hard to have a well-informed discussion. > > It really only affects writers and publishers in an immediate and > > financial way, so it is hard to explain the concerns to others. > > > > sigh > > > > Sen > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Sen McGlinn Sen.McGlinn@Bahai.NL > > *** > > Let the friends recall and ever bear in mind Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 04 09:02:31 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.37) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 08:53:46 -0500 Message-ID: <32F74128.635D@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:01:12 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion References: <"3IcAs.A.lRF.sMs9y"@bounty> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 2446 Susan Maneck wrote: > > On Feb. 1 I had written: > > > The "Dialogue" affair was very complicated. The National Spiritual > > Assembly was disturbed by the editorial line of that magazine, > > which they apparently saw as muckraking, but the Universal House of > > Justice had affirmed it's right to exist. However, the magazine was > > scrutinized very carefully. At one point an article proposing > > certain changes in the Baha'i electorial system was written and sent > > out to a number of people apparently with the intention of getting > > their feedback prior to publication. The article was entitled "A > > Modest Proposal." (Aa rather mischievous title to anyone who knows > > their British and Irish history.) As it happened some delegates to > > the National Convention had received copies. The NSA believed that > > the people behind Dialogue were somehow using this article for > > electioneering purposes. > > I have since been in contact with the former editor of Dialogue who > assures me that only two delegates received a copy of "A Modest > Proposal." These two delegates were served on the > editorial board of Dialogue and it was in that capacity that the > copies were sent for their review. Apparently the National Spritiual > Assembly got the mistaken impression that "dozens and dozens" of > copies of this had been distributed to delegates prior to the > National Convention. As I had attempted to convey in my original > posting I do not think there is any reason to believe that anyone on > the Dialogue staff was engaging in electioneering of any sort. I > apologize if this post might have led anyone to think that this was > the case. As you can see there have been a long series of terrible > misunderstandings which led to unfoldment of these sorry events, many > of which are difficult to untangle now. My hope is that we will all > set aside our suspicions toward everyone involved on both sides of > this issue for the sake of our love for Baha'u'llah and recognize > that we all seek to serve Him in the best way we can. > > Susan It doesn't change the fact that Dialogue was suppressed.... I was a subscriber, though largely appalled at the low intellectual level and crude journalism, and felt they were at least making attempts to develop some kind of thoughtful discussion in the Bahai Faith. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Wed Feb 05 07:05:20 1997 Received: from cliff.cybertrails.com (205.180.32.134) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 16:55:58 -0500 Message-ID: Received: from smsmith ([205.180.50.69]) by cliff.cybertrails.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA126; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:01:42 -0700 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: smsmith@mail.cybertrails.com To: @moa.net Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:06:16 +0000 Subject: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion CC: srb-mods@bcca.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 3435 Mr. Glaysher, Again, I am requesting that you cut down on the included text. Also, could you reword your statement "largely appalled at the low intellictual level and crude journalism" to something less likely to agitate others. While this is your opinion, those who wrote those materials or those who may have read same and had higher opinions, may feel insulted by your choice of wording. Thank you. Sincerely, S. Michele Smith co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai [repond to: srb-mods@bcca.org] > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion > Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:01:00 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Reply-to: @moa.net > To: SManeck@berry.edu > Susan Maneck wrote: > > > > On Feb. 1 I had written: > > > > > The "Dialogue" affair was very complicated. The National Spiritual > > > Assembly was disturbed by the editorial line of that magazine, > > > which they apparently saw as muckraking, but the Universal House of > > > Justice had affirmed it's right to exist. However, the magazine was > > > scrutinized very carefully. At one point an article proposing > > > certain changes in the Baha'i electorial system was written and sent > > > out to a number of people apparently with the intention of getting > > > their feedback prior to publication. The article was entitled "A > > > Modest Proposal." (Aa rather mischievous title to anyone who knows > > > their British and Irish history.) As it happened some delegates to > > > the National Convention had received copies. The NSA believed that > > > the people behind Dialogue were somehow using this article for > > > electioneering purposes. > > > > I have since been in contact with the former editor of Dialogue who > > assures me that only two delegates received a copy of "A Modest > > Proposal." These two delegates were served on the > > editorial board of Dialogue and it was in that capacity that the > > copies were sent for their review. Apparently the National Spritiual > > Assembly got the mistaken impression that "dozens and dozens" of > > copies of this had been distributed to delegates prior to the > > National Convention. As I had attempted to convey in my original > > posting I do not think there is any reason to believe that anyone on > > the Dialogue staff was engaging in electioneering of any sort. I > > apologize if this post might have led anyone to think that this was > > the case. As you can see there have been a long series of terrible > > misunderstandings which led to unfoldment of these sorry events, many > > of which are difficult to untangle now. My hope is that we will all > > set aside our suspicions toward everyone involved on both sides of > > this issue for the sake of our love for Baha'u'llah and recognize > > that we all seek to serve Him in the best way we can. > > > > Susan > > It doesn't change the fact that Dialogue was suppressed.... I was > a subscriber, though largely appalled at the low intellectual level > and crude journalism, and felt they were at least making attempts > to develop some kind of thoughtful discussion in the Bahai Faith. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > From - Tue Feb 04 12:38:32 1997 Received: from drew.berry.edu (168.31.232.19) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:05:34 -0500 Received: from odin.berry.edu (odin.berry.edu [168.31.232.26]) by drew.berry.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA32006 for <@moa.net>; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:18:33 -0500 Received: from ODIN/SpoolDir by odin.berry.edu (Mercury 1.21); 4 Feb 97 10:20:35 -400 Received: from SpoolDir by ODIN (Mercury 1.30); 4 Feb 97 10:20:28 -400 From: "Susan Maneck" Organization: Berry College To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:20:19 EST Subject: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion Reply-to: SManeck@berry.edu Priority: normal In-reply-to: <32F7411C.2F06@moa.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <1C6D98567D3@odin.berry.edu> X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 25 No, it doesn't. Susan From - Sat Feb 08 16:25:19 1997 Received: from drew.berry.edu (168.31.232.19) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 08 Feb 1997 09:48:36 -0500 Received: from odin.berry.edu (odin.berry.edu [168.31.232.26]) by drew.berry.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA04496 for <@moa.net>; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:01:22 -0500 Received: from ODIN/SpoolDir by odin.berry.edu (Mercury 1.21); 8 Feb 97 10:04:57 -400 Received: from SpoolDir by ODIN (Mercury 1.30); 8 Feb 97 10:04:30 -400 From: "Susan Maneck" Organization: Berry College To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 10:04:22 EST Subject: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion Reply-to: SManeck@berry.edu Priority: normal In-reply-to: <32FB29DD.47ED@moa.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <22699EA4314@odin.berry.edu> X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1040 Fred, I don't think this one appeared. Too bad. It was a good post. Susan > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion > Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 08:10:53 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Reply-to: @moa.net > To: SManeck@berry.edu > Susan Maneck wrote: > > > > Certainly the title was provocative and showed poor judgement, but > > the reaction of the NSA does seem extreme. > > > > Susan > > I think it showed excellent literary judgement. It evoked a powerful > tradition of longing for freedom and religious conscience. > > Extreme as can be, for God's sake. And under such conditions we all > delude ourselves that the masses are going to come into this religion? > For what? > > For God's sake we're eating the young! > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > From - Sat Feb 08 17:29:27 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.166) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 08 Feb 1997 16:33:54 -0500 Message-ID: <32FCF306.2908@moa.net> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 16:41:26 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion References: <22699EA4314@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1295 Susan Maneck wrote: > > Fred, > > I don't think this one appeared. Too bad. It was a good post. > > Susan > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Subject: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion > > Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 08:10:53 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Reply-to: @moa.net > > To: SManeck@berry.edu > > > Susan Maneck wrote: > > > > > > Certainly the title was provocative and showed poor judgement, but > > > the reaction of the NSA does seem extreme. > > > > > > Susan > > > > I think it showed excellent literary judgement. It evoked a powerful > > tradition of longing for freedom and religious conscience. > > > > Extreme as can be, for God's sake. And under such conditions we all > > delude ourselves that the masses are going to come into this religion? > > For what? > > > > For God's sake we're eating the young! > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > I haven't seen it yet either. They just suppressed another message of mine. I've posted it to news.groups too. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 08 16:41:26 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FCF306.2908@moa.net> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 16:41:26 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion References: <22699EA4314@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1297 Susan Maneck wrote: > > Fred, > > I don't think this one appeared. Too bad. It was a good post. > > Susan > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Subject: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion > > Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 08:10:53 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Reply-to: @moa.net > > To: SManeck@berry.edu > > > Susan Maneck wrote: > > > > > > Certainly the title was provocative and showed poor judgement, but > > > the reaction of the NSA does seem extreme. > > > > > > Susan > > > > I think it showed excellent literary judgement. It evoked a powerful > > tradition of longing for freedom and religious conscience. > > > > Extreme as can be, for God's sake. And under such conditions we all > > delude ourselves that the masses are going to come into this religion? > > For what? > > > > For God's sake we're eating the young! > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > I haven't seen it yet either. They just suppressed another message of mine. I've posted it to news.groups too. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 08 17:29:28 1997 Received: from drew.berry.edu (168.31.232.19) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 08 Feb 1997 16:36:34 -0500 Received: from odin.berry.edu (odin.berry.edu [168.31.232.26]) by drew.berry.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA06583 for <@moa.net>; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 15:49:19 -0500 Received: from ODIN/SpoolDir by odin.berry.edu (Mercury 1.21); 8 Feb 97 16:53:01 -400 Received: from SpoolDir by ODIN (Mercury 1.30); 8 Feb 97 16:52:47 -400 From: "Susan Maneck" Organization: Berry College To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 16:52:37 EST Subject: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion Reply-to: SManeck@berry.edu Priority: normal In-reply-to: <32FCF306.2908@moa.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <22D68271FE7@odin.berry.edu> X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 199 They have suppressed one of mine as well recently. I have appealed their decision. If it is still not allowed, I'll put it on Talisman. Do you want me to forward it to you in that case? Susan From - Sat Feb 08 17:39:50 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.166) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 08 Feb 1997 17:26:33 -0500 Message-ID: <32FCFF5E.6A9E@moa.net> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 17:34:06 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: And others too.... References: <22D68271FE7@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 556 Susan Maneck wrote: > > They have suppressed one of mine as well recently. I have appealed > their decision. If it is still not allowed, I'll put it on > Talisman. Do you want me to forward it to you in that case? > > Susan Sure. Could I repost it to news.groups as evidence from someone other than myself? I'm hearing it's only me, etc.... Others have, God as my witness and may I rot in hell if I'm a liar, emailed me to the same effect.... They're afraid to come forward.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 08 17:47:12 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.166) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 08 Feb 1997 17:26:33 -0500 Message-ID: <32FCFF5E.6A9E@moa.net> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 17:34:06 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: And others too.... References: <22D68271FE7@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 556 Susan Maneck wrote: > > They have suppressed one of mine as well recently. I have appealed > their decision. If it is still not allowed, I'll put it on > Talisman. Do you want me to forward it to you in that case? > > Susan Sure. Could I repost it to news.groups as evidence from someone other than myself? I'm hearing it's only me, etc.... Others have, God as my witness and may I rot in hell if I'm a liar, emailed me to the same effect.... They're afraid to come forward.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 08 17:34:06 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FCFF5E.6A9E@moa.net> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 17:34:06 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: And others too.... References: <22D68271FE7@odin.berry.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 558 Susan Maneck wrote: > > They have suppressed one of mine as well recently. I have appealed > their decision. If it is still not allowed, I'll put it on > Talisman. Do you want me to forward it to you in that case? > > Susan Sure. Could I repost it to news.groups as evidence from someone other than myself? I'm hearing it's only me, etc.... Others have, God as my witness and may I rot in hell if I'm a liar, emailed me to the same effect.... They're afraid to come forward.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Fri Feb 07 08:26:49 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.55) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 07 Feb 1997 08:03:41 -0500 Message-ID: <32FB29EF.3942@moa.net> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 08:11:11 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion References: <"nxqCyB.A.v2E.t8P-y"@bounty> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 542 Susan Maneck wrote: > > Certainly the title was provocative and showed poor judgement, but > the reaction of the NSA does seem extreme. > > Susan I think it showed excellent literary judgement. It evoked a powerful tradition of longing for freedom and religious conscience. Extreme as can be, for God's sake. And under such conditions we all delude ourselves that the masses are going to come into this religion? For what? For God's sake we're eating the young! -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Apr 07 07:54:16 1997 >From panuser@reference.com Sun Apr 6 03:55:57 1997 Received: (from panuser@localhost) by shadowfax.reference.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id DAA18011; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 03:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 03:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704061054.DAA18011@shadowfax.reference.com> From: FG@hotmail.com Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,talk.religion.misc Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Agenda? Organization: Reference.Com Posting Service X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 1519 I hope I don't have one.... Alas, I'm human.... Go ahead, laugh! I have never and now don't intend talk/alt.religion.bahai to be a "hotbed" for covenant breaking, vulgarity, defamation, flamewars, etc.... I would merely like to speak plainly and honestly and not have it distorted for any reason by some self-appointed, rigid, fanatical fascist.... It's diffcult to shake off the experience of what I (we?) have just been through during the last three months.... I'm not about to indulge in any let bygones be bygones kind of nonsense. The animosity of 691 people is too clear for that, their motives questionable at best.... I do hope, though, that we all (Bahais at least) appreciate the unprecedented achievement (though less than desired) of even alt.religion.bahai There has never been a free, open, uncensored forum in the history of the Bahai Faith, in my opinion.... Those that have been attempted in the past have always been shut down for one reason or another, in one way or another.... That reality should not be lost sight of. Where do we now start? I don't own or run this forum. No one does. It belongs to the Internet community. Can somebody else start things rolling? Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -- Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Sun Jun 22 08:25:30 1980 BCC: FG@hotmail.com Message-ID: <13B3683A.78E4@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1980 08:25:30 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: support@webcrawler.com Subject: alt.religion.bahai Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 405 Could you please include a new newsgroup, alt.religion.bahai, in your list for searching and accessing? After a long discussion and voting period, involving a lot of issues of free speech and religious conscience, alt.religion.bahai was formed early this month. Unfortunately, the alt.* hierarchy propagates slowly or poorly. Thanks. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Jun 22 08:28:43 1980 BCC: FG@hotmail.com Message-ID: <13B368FB.4882@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1980 08:28:43 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: webmaster@lycos.com Subject: alt.religion.bahai Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 405 Could you please include a new newsgroup, alt.religion.bahai, in your list for searching and accessing? After a long discussion and voting period, involving a lot of issues of free speech and religious conscience, alt.religion.bahai was formed early this month. Unfortunately, the alt.* hierarchy propagates slowly or poorly. Thanks. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Jun 22 08:43:27 1980 BCC: FG@hotmail.com Message-ID: <13B36C6F.7354@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1980 08:43:27 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: suggestions.altavista@pa.dec.com Subject: alt.religion.bahai Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 405 Could you please include a new newsgroup, alt.religion.bahai, in your list for searching and accessing? After a long discussion and voting period, involving a lot of issues of free speech and religious conscience, alt.religion.bahai was formed early this month. Unfortunately, the alt.* hierarchy propagates slowly or poorly. Thanks. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Jun 22 08:53:00 1980 BCC: FG@hotmail.com Message-ID: <13B36EAC.728B@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1980 08:53:00 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: liszt@liszt.com Subject: alt.religion.bahai Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 405 Could you please include a new newsgroup, alt.religion.bahai, in your list for searching and accessing? After a long discussion and voting period, involving a lot of issues of free speech and religious conscience, alt.religion.bahai was formed early this month. Unfortunately, the alt.* hierarchy propagates slowly or poorly. Thanks. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Jun 22 08:55:16 1980 BCC: FG@hotmail.com Message-ID: <13B36F34.4FCD@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1980 08:55:16 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: webmaster@go2net.com Subject: alt.religion.bahai Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 405 Could you please include a new newsgroup, alt.religion.bahai, in your list for searching and accessing? After a long discussion and voting period, involving a lot of issues of free speech and religious conscience, alt.religion.bahai was formed early this month. Unfortunately, the alt.* hierarchy propagates slowly or poorly. Thanks. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Apr 07 07:52:45 1997 >From jgoldberg@megsinet.net Sun Mar 30 20:21:09 1997 Received: from ns.megsinet.net ([208.150.38.181]) by megspo1.megsinet.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11704) with SMTP id AAA109; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 22:20:35 -0600 Message-ID: <333F38C3.62CB@megsinet.net> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 22:08:35 -0600 From: jgoldberg@megsinet.net (Jeffrey Goldberg) Reply-To: jgoldberg@megsinet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: alt.religion.bahai References: <199703310109.RAA04313@f12.hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 357 I have recently posted a proposal for on the newsgroup alt.config for the creation of alt.religion.bahai If you have access to the alt hierarchy, please post your support in alt.config. As I understand it, after posting for 1 week there, I can send a control message to have the newsgroup created by the various servers who post the alt hierarchy. From - Wed Apr 16 07:29:52 1997 >From piranha@gooroos.com Tue Apr 15 07:54:13 1997 Received: from localhost (ts17l4.pathcom.com [207.245.16.87]) by pathway1.pathcom.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA25211 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0wH9Kw-000urKC; Tue, 15 Apr 97 10:35 EDT Received: by localhost (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0wH9Kv-000ur5C; Tue, 15 Apr 97 10:35 EDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 10:35 EDT From: piranha@gooroos.com (piranha) To: FG@hotmail.com Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.rights.human,alt.religion.bahai Subject: Re: alt.religion.bahai References: <5i2ph1$i5d$1@bilbo.reference.com> <5i38kr$vqq@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <5i5ios$h37$1@bilbo.reference.com> Reply-To: piranha@pobox.com Organization: GooRoos Inc. X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1112 [posted and emailed.] In article <5i5ios$h37$1@bilbo.reference.com>, wrote: > >[...] Many people who >would use alt.religion.bahai are perhaps not tuning in at the >moment, are on vacation, on another newsgroup, were here last >month, etc.... How do we inform them of alt.religion.bahai now? some people are not even on the net yet, and will sign up next month, how do you inform them? this is a perennial problem, and i understand the wish to advertise, but it _is_ discourteous to advertise in groups where such items are not on-topic. but there are ways to get the news out: you can make sure your newsgroup is listed with the major search engines in their "usenet" category. you can create a web page to ad- vertise it, and list that with any search engine you can think of. you can add a line to your signature in which you point people in the direction of your newsgroup, and use that signature wherever else you post. you can possibly enter a small ad in whatever religious newspapers are in circulation among bahais. -alix From - Fri Apr 18 07:27:17 1997 >From jdg@rahul.net Thu Apr 17 10:48:26 1997 Received: from waltz.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA02516 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:48:56 -0700 From: John David Galt Received: by waltz.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA15011; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:48:53 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:48:53 -0700 Message-Id: <199704171748.AA15011@waltz.rahul.net> To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: alt.religion.bahai X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 344 I could set up a listserver here on rahul.net, but I would have to pay for it. A university or other free site would be better if you can get one. btw, I'm not really that interested in the subject; I just don't like seeing soc.culture.* and talk.religion.* proposals get squished by hate groups, so I vote for them. John David Galt From - Sat Apr 26 07:42:16 1997 >From johnwrldpc@aol.com Fri Apr 25 04:40:14 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id HAA02586 for FG@hotmail.com; Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:40:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 07:40:13 -0400 (EDT) From: JohnWrldPc@aol.com Message-ID: <970425074012_-1634504026@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: alt.religion.bahai X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1617 I asked aol to add alt.religion.bahai. This is the response that I received. John WorldPeace << * Requests for new groups to be added will be processed, but we can not guarantee delivery unless the group has global propagation. The most common reason is that the special 'control' message which authorizes the creation of a group has not arrived at our site yet -- in which case, please be patient and we'll pick up the group as soon as we can. Another common reason is that the creation command wasn't properly issued -- USENET newsgroups are loosely organized into regions, and if a message isn't properly flagged for global distribution it will never be seen by the rest of the net. In this case, you should contact the admin. or user responsible for initially issuing the create-group command and ask them to re-issue it globally. We will then carry the group once the message arrives at our site. Finally, some newsgroups are deliberately restricted to a particular location or set of locations -- university newsgroups are an excellent example. In cases such as this, we usually cannot carry the group(s) unless the site of origin wishes to establish a special connection to AOL. If this is the case, you should ask the admins of the location where the group exists if they would be interested in establishing a special relationship with AOL. If they are, have them contact NewsMaster and we'll investigate further. We may not always be able to honor your request, however. Warm Regards, The Internet Development and Outreach Technologies Dept. From - Mon Apr 07 07:52:44 1997 >From jgoldberg@megsinet.net Sun Mar 30 19:34:57 1997 Received: from ns.megsinet.net ([208.150.38.181]) by megspo1.megsinet.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11704) with SMTP id AAA189 for ; Sun, 30 Mar 1997 21:34:20 -0600 Message-ID: <333F2DED.539B@megsinet.net> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 21:22:21 -0600 From: jgoldberg@megsinet.net (Jeffrey Goldberg) Reply-To: jgoldberg@megsinet.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frederick Glaysher Subject: No vote on talk.religion.bahai References: <199703310109.RAA04313@f12.hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 95 I cannot find the results posting even after searching. Could you email me the full results From - Thu Apr 10 08:11:00 1997 >From brentreed@aol.com Thu Mar 13 11:11:09 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA27802; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:59:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:59:09 -0500 (EST) From: BrentReed@aol.com Message-ID: <970313135909_-1271482772@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: An Open Letter to the Baha'is X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 6332 An Open Letter to All Baha'is March 14, 1997 Dear Baha'i brothers and sisters: I am sorry that I have apparently not been clear enough in my various attempts to explain my discovery of the greatest Violation of Baha'u'llah's Covenant in Its history, and my consequent departure from the organization loyal to the "UHJ" whose leaders (the Hands) initiated that Violation, and then my declaration of Faith to the Third Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, Joel B. Marangella, who (whether you agree at this time or not) is the true faithful Guardian of your Faith. Sooner or later most of you will discover it to be so. I am a Baha'i just like you. Since I was 19, I was loyal to the organization under the "Universal House of Justice" in Haifa, Israel, just like you are. But thorough research has ABSOLUTELY and IRREVOCABLY convinced me that the leaders (Hands of the Cause, exept for the Hand, Mason Remey) of the Faith organization that I used to belong to - and that you still have your affiliation with - usurped power that was not theirs and violated Baha'u'llah's Covenant! Shoghi Effendi, the First Guardian, did in fact choose a successor. His name was Mason Remey. Mason Remey chose Joel Marangella to be his successor. Joel Marangella is now the Third Guardian of the Baha'i Faith. He is American. In order to help prevent confusion, the Third Guardian has temporarily named the the true Faith under his Guardianship, the Orthodox Baha'i Faith. The Guardianship was never supposed to end - and it has not! Did you know, that according to the Will & Testament and the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah: Administrative Section, that 1.) The Guardianship was not only meant to continue through the ages of Baha'u'llah's Dispensation, and that is what is meant by "The Day that Shall not be Followed by Night," but without it the "World Order of Baha'u'llah would become mutilated." 2.) The Guardian is supposed to be one of the nine members of the Universal House of Justice. 3.) As the Divinely appointed Interpreter of the Writings, he must make sure that the Legislative Branch (the UHJ) creates legislation that is consistent with the Baha'i Teachings. 4.) The UHJ is barred from interpreting the Writings. As one of the nine members, he is the only one who is not elected. He is the "sacred head for life of that body." The current imposter UHJ in Haifa does not have the Guardian as its sacred head. It has nine instead of eight elected members. Without the Divinely appointed Interpreter its legislation is not "freed from error." In addition, without a Guardian your organization will have no more Hands of the Cause, which Baha'u'llah set up as a permanent, unending institution, just like the Guardianship and the UHJ. You see, the Guardian must appoint the Hands. The UHJ cannot do this. Thus, in summation, by erroneously declaring that Shoghi Effendi had appointed no successor in 1957, and ending the Guardianship, the Hands destroyed all three Institutions of Baha'u'llah's World Order. The only institution that your organization has is one called the "Universal House of Justice." But it is NOT the Universal House of Justice foretold by Baha'u'llah. It is a man-made abomination. Despite all of the progress that you see now; despite the many properties that are being built, despite the fact that 5 million or so Baha'is give their allegiance to that organization, you must try to grasp the fact that IT IS NOT THE SUPREME BODY FORTOLD BY BAHA'U'LLAH. IT IS A COUNTERFEIT! It was truly a shock for me to discover that I had actually been in the Covenant-breaking organization since I was 19! My precious Baha'i brothers and sisters, of course you do not know me, but I am a very intelligent individual that has been VERY committed to Baha'u'llah since I was 19 years old. I am capable of making intelligent, rational decisions, and I am not insane, and would never embark on this journey of devoting my time and energy to publicly informing all Baha'is under the UHJ that they are on the wrong course, unless I were totally sure that documentation and evidence proves that I am correct. And certainly, I would not want to invoke the "negative karma" associated within misguiding people. What I am posting on America Online is very serious. All of you must study the Will & Testament, The Dispensation of Baha'u'llah: Administrative Section," the 1951 Proclamation of Shoghi Effendi to all national assemblies, and various other crucial letters from Shoghi Effendi that are difficult to round up. The Third Guardian's Web Site at: https://wantree.com.au/techbase/bahai/guardian.html can provide most of them for you. YOU ARE INNOCENT PARTICIPANTS IN A RAPIDLY INCREASINGLY POWERFUL ORGANIZATION THAT HAS VIOLATED BAHA'U'LLAH'S COVENANT! Please, do not fear what I am telling you. Trust in the Divine Spirit to guide your intellect and heart. God will surely protect you and enable you to find the truth, providing that you are truly detached. (Refer to the Tablet of the True Seeker. I believe it begins on page 196 in the Book of Certitude). I have been publicly accused of breaking the Covenant of the Manifestation of God that I have devoted my life to. I am willing and able (if it is God's Will, and He continues to strengthen me) to stand firm on my convictions. I will not abdicate my responsibility to Baha'u'llah. There is one other thing that needs clarification. I am not afilliated in any way to the people that call themselves the "BUPC," or the "Baha'is Under the Provisions of the Covenant," who claim that Leland Jensen, one of their members, was the return of Jesus and the Lamb of God. In my research, which included of course, researching the material from the BUPC, I did not recognize the pattern of Baha'u'llah's Covenant in their organization. Although they too recognize that the Hands violated the Covenant, their organization later took off in another direction that is incompatible with Baha'u'llah's Covenant. I hope that this has helped to clarify my position. Love and Light, Your Baha'i brother, Brent Reed From - Wed Apr 09 08:12:29 1997 >From brentreed@aol.com Thu Mar 13 11:11:09 1997 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA27802; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:59:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:59:09 -0500 (EST) From: BrentReed@aol.com Message-ID: <970313135909_-1271482772@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: An Open Letter to the Baha'is X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 6332 An Open Letter to All Baha'is March 14, 1997 Dear Baha'i brothers and sisters: I am sorry that I have apparently not been clear enough in my various attempts to explain my discovery of the greatest Violation of Baha'u'llah's Covenant in Its history, and my consequent departure from the organization loyal to the "UHJ" whose leaders (the Hands) initiated that Violation, and then my declaration of Faith to the Third Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, Joel B. Marangella, who (whether you agree at this time or not) is the true faithful Guardian of your Faith. Sooner or later most of you will discover it to be so. I am a Baha'i just like you. Since I was 19, I was loyal to the organization under the "Universal House of Justice" in Haifa, Israel, just like you are. But thorough research has ABSOLUTELY and IRREVOCABLY convinced me that the leaders (Hands of the Cause, exept for the Hand, Mason Remey) of the Faith organization that I used to belong to - and that you still have your affiliation with - usurped power that was not theirs and violated Baha'u'llah's Covenant! Shoghi Effendi, the First Guardian, did in fact choose a successor. His name was Mason Remey. Mason Remey chose Joel Marangella to be his successor. Joel Marangella is now the Third Guardian of the Baha'i Faith. He is American. In order to help prevent confusion, the Third Guardian has temporarily named the the true Faith under his Guardianship, the Orthodox Baha'i Faith. The Guardianship was never supposed to end - and it has not! Did you know, that according to the Will & Testament and the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah: Administrative Section, that 1.) The Guardianship was not only meant to continue through the ages of Baha'u'llah's Dispensation, and that is what is meant by "The Day that Shall not be Followed by Night," but without it the "World Order of Baha'u'llah would become mutilated." 2.) The Guardian is supposed to be one of the nine members of the Universal House of Justice. 3.) As the Divinely appointed Interpreter of the Writings, he must make sure that the Legislative Branch (the UHJ) creates legislation that is consistent with the Baha'i Teachings. 4.) The UHJ is barred from interpreting the Writings. As one of the nine members, he is the only one who is not elected. He is the "sacred head for life of that body." The current imposter UHJ in Haifa does not have the Guardian as its sacred head. It has nine instead of eight elected members. Without the Divinely appointed Interpreter its legislation is not "freed from error." In addition, without a Guardian your organization will have no more Hands of the Cause, which Baha'u'llah set up as a permanent, unending institution, just like the Guardianship and the UHJ. You see, the Guardian must appoint the Hands. The UHJ cannot do this. Thus, in summation, by erroneously declaring that Shoghi Effendi had appointed no successor in 1957, and ending the Guardianship, the Hands destroyed all three Institutions of Baha'u'llah's World Order. The only institution that your organization has is one called the "Universal House of Justice." But it is NOT the Universal House of Justice foretold by Baha'u'llah. It is a man-made abomination. Despite all of the progress that you see now; despite the many properties that are being built, despite the fact that 5 million or so Baha'is give their allegiance to that organization, you must try to grasp the fact that IT IS NOT THE SUPREME BODY FORTOLD BY BAHA'U'LLAH. IT IS A COUNTERFEIT! It was truly a shock for me to discover that I had actually been in the Covenant-breaking organization since I was 19! My precious Baha'i brothers and sisters, of course you do not know me, but I am a very intelligent individual that has been VERY committed to Baha'u'llah since I was 19 years old. I am capable of making intelligent, rational decisions, and I am not insane, and would never embark on this journey of devoting my time and energy to publicly informing all Baha'is under the UHJ that they are on the wrong course, unless I were totally sure that documentation and evidence proves that I am correct. And certainly, I would not want to invoke the "negative karma" associated within misguiding people. What I am posting on America Online is very serious. All of you must study the Will & Testament, The Dispensation of Baha'u'llah: Administrative Section," the 1951 Proclamation of Shoghi Effendi to all national assemblies, and various other crucial letters from Shoghi Effendi that are difficult to round up. The Third Guardian's Web Site at: https://wantree.com.au/techbase/bahai/guardian.html can provide most of them for you. YOU ARE INNOCENT PARTICIPANTS IN A RAPIDLY INCREASINGLY POWERFUL ORGANIZATION THAT HAS VIOLATED BAHA'U'LLAH'S COVENANT! Please, do not fear what I am telling you. Trust in the Divine Spirit to guide your intellect and heart. God will surely protect you and enable you to find the truth, providing that you are truly detached. (Refer to the Tablet of the True Seeker. I believe it begins on page 196 in the Book of Certitude). I have been publicly accused of breaking the Covenant of the Manifestation of God that I have devoted my life to. I am willing and able (if it is God's Will, and He continues to strengthen me) to stand firm on my convictions. I will not abdicate my responsibility to Baha'u'llah. There is one other thing that needs clarification. I am not afilliated in any way to the people that call themselves the "BUPC," or the "Baha'is Under the Provisions of the Covenant," who claim that Leland Jensen, one of their members, was the return of Jesus and the Lamb of God. In my research, which included of course, researching the material from the BUPC, I did not recognize the pattern of Baha'u'llah's Covenant in their organization. Although they too recognize that the Hands violated the Covenant, their organization later took off in another direction that is incompatible with Baha'u'llah's Covenant. I hope that this has helped to clarify my position. Love and Light, Your Baha'i brother, Brent Reed From - Sat Feb 08 17:47:18 1997 Received: from drew.berry.edu (168.31.232.19) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 08 Feb 1997 17:31:58 -0500 Received: from odin.berry.edu (odin.berry.edu [168.31.232.26]) by drew.berry.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA06937 for <@moa.net>; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 16:44:41 -0500 Received: from ODIN/SpoolDir by odin.berry.edu (Mercury 1.21); 8 Feb 97 17:48:25 -400 Received: from SpoolDir by ODIN (Mercury 1.30); 8 Feb 97 17:47:57 -400 From: "Susan Maneck" Organization: Berry College To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 17:47:53 EST Subject: Re: And others too.... Reply-to: SManeck@berry.edu Priority: normal In-reply-to: <32FCFF5E.6A9E@moa.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <22E53972776@odin.berry.edu> X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 624 Okay. Well I'm going to see if I can't work things out with the moderators first. If not I'll send it. I know a number of postings that get censored but usually I find the reasons valid. John Haukness likes to accuse people of being closet CB's and the moderators won't permit that. CB's can't challenge the provisions of the Covenant. Steve and Juan can name names and accuse the Administration of corruption. Everytime the moderators sent my message back I could live with their decision. This time it seems like a clear effort to withold information, so I am determined to see that it gets out. Susan From - Sun Apr 27 10:30:58 1997 >From FG@hotmail.com Sun Apr 27 07:27:10 1997 Received: (qmail 21817 invoked from network); 27 Apr 1997 14:24:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO default) (199.179.42.126) by hm3.hotmail.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1997 14:24:11 -0000 Message-ID: <336361FC.5105@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 10:26:04 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JohnWrldPc@aol.com Subject: AOL Listserv alt.religion.bahai Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5351 John, I hope this message I just received from the person who started alt.religion.bahai helps AOL. Apparently, you should forward this to AOL if you're still willing to help on this. Let me know if you're not. It only makes sense that alt.religion.bahai should be set up for global distribution. I assume it is. Given the months needed for propagation and the limited access of many people to the alt.* hierarchy, a LISTSERV still makes sense too.... -- Jonathan Grobe wrote: No there is no list of what ISPs take a group. The best way is to just publicize the group and encourage people to ask their news administrators to add it. For example besides making posts on this you might put it in your signature. The propagation of new alt groups is slow so it will take a few months before it is broadly available. Here is the official archive at isc.org of newgroup messages Forward it to Newsmaster@aol.com if there is a problem (although they just send everybody the same form response apparently) >From grobe@netins.net Wed Apr 2 18:31:06 1997 Path: news.isc.org!uunet!in2.uu.net!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-p eer.sprintlink.net!newsrelay.netins.net!news.netins.net!grobe From: grobe@netins.net (Jonathan Grobe) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.religion.bahai Subject: cmsg newgroup alt.religion.bahai Control: newgroup alt.religion.bahai Date: 3 Apr 1997 01:51:51 GMT Organization: netINS, Des Moines, IA, USA Lines: 42 Approved: grobe@netins.net Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: worf.netins.net X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Xref: news.isc.org control.newgroup:3421 For your newsgroups file: alt.religion.bahai Bahai faith. The vote for the unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai has just failed 157:691 But given that there were 157 Yes votes I believe there is sufficient interest for an alt.* group. As discussed in alt.config [Adapted from the talk.religion.bahai proposal] RATIONALE: alt.religion.bahai All newsgroups and listservs given to the discussion of the Bahai faith are moderated. A need exists for an unmoderated forum, and this proposed newsgroup would meet that need. It is intended that alt.religion.bahai will complement, rather than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai. The establishment of unmoderated companion groups is a well-accepted practice on Usenet. CHARTER: alt.religion.bahai All topics or ideas relevant to the Bahai faith -- its history, teachings, theology -- and so on would be appropriate areas for discussion. Crossposting of articles not specifically relevant to the Bahai faith is strongly discouraged. Also discouraged are personal messages, large ASCII graphics, special-format files, and any postings of a purely commercial nature. Readers are asked not to start or prolong flamewars and excessive crossposts. Articles may be crossposted to soc.religion.bahai -- subject, of course, to the approval of the moderator of that group. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to the charter above. -- Jonathan Grobe >From grobe@netins.net Thu Apr 10 08:19:04 1997 Path: news.isc.org!uunet!in3.uu.net!167.142.225.5!news.netins.net!grobe From: grobe@netins.net (Jonathan Grobe) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.religion.bahai Subject: cmsg newgroup alt.religion.bahai Control: newgroup alt.religion.bahai Date: 10 Apr 1997 15:09:40 GMT Organization: netINS, Des Moines, IA, USA Lines: 43 Approved: grobe@netins.net Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: worf.netins.net X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Xref: news.isc.org control.newgroup:3667 The vote for the unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai has just failed 157:691 But given that there were 157 Yes votes I believe there is sufficient interest for an alt.* group. For your newsgroups file: alt.religion.bahai Bahai faith. [Adapted from the talk.religion.bahai proposal] RATIONALE: alt.religion.bahai All newsgroups and listservs given to the discussion of the Bahai faith are moderated. A need exists for an unmoderated forum, and this proposed newsgroup would meet that need. It is intended that alt.religion.bahai will complement, rather than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai. The establishment of unmoderated companion groups is a well-accepted practice on Usenet. CHARTER: alt.religion.bahai All topics or ideas relevant to the Bahai faith -- its history, teachings, theology -- and so on would be appropriate areas for discussion. Crossposting of articles not specifically relevant to the Bahai faith is strongly discouraged. Also discouraged are personal messages, large ASCII graphics, special-format files, and any postings of a purely commercial nature. Readers are asked not to start or prolong flamewars and excessive crossposts. Articles may be crossposted to soc.religion.bahai -- subject, of course, to the approval of the moderator of that group. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to the charter above. -- Jonathan Grobe From - Sun Apr 27 10:26:04 1997 BCC: FG@hotmail.com Message-ID: <336361FC.5105@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 10:26:04 -0400 From: FG Reply-To: FG@hotmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JohnWrldPc@aol.com Subject: AOL Listserv alt.religion.bahai Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5353 John, I hope this message I just received from the person who started alt.religion.bahai helps AOL. Apparently, you should forward this to AOL if you're still willing to help on this. Let me know if you're not. It only makes sense that alt.religion.bahai should be set up for global distribution. I assume it is. Given the months needed for propagation and the limited access of many people to the alt.* hierarchy, a LISTSERV still makes sense too.... -- Jonathan Grobe wrote: No there is no list of what ISPs take a group. The best way is to just publicize the group and encourage people to ask their news administrators to add it. For example besides making posts on this you might put it in your signature. The propagation of new alt groups is slow so it will take a few months before it is broadly available. Here is the official archive at isc.org of newgroup messages Forward it to Newsmaster@aol.com if there is a problem (although they just send everybody the same form response apparently) >From grobe@netins.net Wed Apr 2 18:31:06 1997 Path: news.isc.org!uunet!in2.uu.net!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-p eer.sprintlink.net!newsrelay.netins.net!news.netins.net!grobe From: grobe@netins.net (Jonathan Grobe) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.religion.bahai Subject: cmsg newgroup alt.religion.bahai Control: newgroup alt.religion.bahai Date: 3 Apr 1997 01:51:51 GMT Organization: netINS, Des Moines, IA, USA Lines: 42 Approved: grobe@netins.net Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: worf.netins.net X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Xref: news.isc.org control.newgroup:3421 For your newsgroups file: alt.religion.bahai Bahai faith. The vote for the unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai has just failed 157:691 But given that there were 157 Yes votes I believe there is sufficient interest for an alt.* group. As discussed in alt.config [Adapted from the talk.religion.bahai proposal] RATIONALE: alt.religion.bahai All newsgroups and listservs given to the discussion of the Bahai faith are moderated. A need exists for an unmoderated forum, and this proposed newsgroup would meet that need. It is intended that alt.religion.bahai will complement, rather than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai. The establishment of unmoderated companion groups is a well-accepted practice on Usenet. CHARTER: alt.religion.bahai All topics or ideas relevant to the Bahai faith -- its history, teachings, theology -- and so on would be appropriate areas for discussion. Crossposting of articles not specifically relevant to the Bahai faith is strongly discouraged. Also discouraged are personal messages, large ASCII graphics, special-format files, and any postings of a purely commercial nature. Readers are asked not to start or prolong flamewars and excessive crossposts. Articles may be crossposted to soc.religion.bahai -- subject, of course, to the approval of the moderator of that group. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to the charter above. -- Jonathan Grobe >From grobe@netins.net Thu Apr 10 08:19:04 1997 Path: news.isc.org!uunet!in3.uu.net!167.142.225.5!news.netins.net!grobe From: grobe@netins.net (Jonathan Grobe) Newsgroups: alt.config,alt.religion.bahai Subject: cmsg newgroup alt.religion.bahai Control: newgroup alt.religion.bahai Date: 10 Apr 1997 15:09:40 GMT Organization: netINS, Des Moines, IA, USA Lines: 43 Approved: grobe@netins.net Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: worf.netins.net X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX) Xref: news.isc.org control.newgroup:3667 The vote for the unmoderated group talk.religion.bahai has just failed 157:691 But given that there were 157 Yes votes I believe there is sufficient interest for an alt.* group. For your newsgroups file: alt.religion.bahai Bahai faith. [Adapted from the talk.religion.bahai proposal] RATIONALE: alt.religion.bahai All newsgroups and listservs given to the discussion of the Bahai faith are moderated. A need exists for an unmoderated forum, and this proposed newsgroup would meet that need. It is intended that alt.religion.bahai will complement, rather than supplant, the existing moderated group soc.religion.bahai. The establishment of unmoderated companion groups is a well-accepted practice on Usenet. CHARTER: alt.religion.bahai All topics or ideas relevant to the Bahai faith -- its history, teachings, theology -- and so on would be appropriate areas for discussion. Crossposting of articles not specifically relevant to the Bahai faith is strongly discouraged. Also discouraged are personal messages, large ASCII graphics, special-format files, and any postings of a purely commercial nature. Readers are asked not to start or prolong flamewars and excessive crossposts. Articles may be crossposted to soc.religion.bahai -- subject, of course, to the approval of the moderator of that group. Readers may also post articles that have been rejected from soc.religion.bahai, so long as they conform to the charter above. -- Jonathan Grobe From - Thu Apr 10 08:18:15 1997 >From cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu Mon Mar 24 01:47:18 1997 Received: from ponyexpress.Princeton.EDU ([128.112.129.131]) by outbound.Princeton.EDU with ESMTP id <541121-20971>; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 04:47:14 -0500 Return-Path: cbstone@phoenix.Princeton.EDU Received: from flagstaff.Princeton.EDU (flagstaff.Princeton.EDU [128.112.131.154]) by ponyexpress.Princeton.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id EAA22937 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 04:47:10 -0500 Received: from localhost (cbstone@localhost) by flagstaff.Princeton.EDU (SMI-8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id EAA28674 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 04:47:10 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: flagstaff.princeton.edu: cbstone owned process doing -bs Date:Mon, 24 Mar 1997 04:47:09 -0500 (EST) From:Christopher Stone To:Frederick Glaysher Subject: Re: Apology for doubting you In-Reply-To: <199703161126.DAA29834@f22.hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 100 Sorry, I am not igorning your messages, I am simply away from my computer fr another week. -cs From - Wed Apr 30 06:44:14 1997 >From jbh5@cornell.edu Tue Apr 29 13:37:12 1997 Received: from 128.253.239.71 ([128.253.239.71]) by cornell.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA27106 for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:36:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199704292036.QAA27106@cornell.edu> Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:50:53 -0400 From: jbh5@cornell.edu (Jean Hunter) To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Archive: Talk.religion.bahai References: <5k5emh$73l$1@bilbo.reference.com> Organization: Cornell University X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 590 Dear Fred, Alla-u-abha. I've been following a.r.b. since its inception and would like to ask you a favor. Most of your posts appear multiple times, apparently because you are posting them to several different sets of newsgroups. Would it be possible to send just one copy of each post to a.r.b? Another thing is, that your newsreader tends to double space your text, and it even double spaces the double spaces when replies go back and forth. Is it possible to fix this feature so that your posts are single spaced? They do read much better that way. Regards, Jean From - Wed Apr 30 06:44:19 1997 >From panuser@reference.com Wed Apr 30 03:31:21 1997 Received: (from panuser@localhost) by shadowfax.reference.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id DAA18434; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 03:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 03:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704301029.DAA18434@shadowfax.reference.com> From: FG@hotmail.com Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai,soc.culture.iranian,talk.religion.misc Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Archive: Talk.religion.bahai References: <5k5erm$7bc$1@bilbo.reference.com> <5k5imv$alm@itchy.serv.net> Organization: Reference.Com Posting Service X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 2458 On 29 Apr 1997 12:38:07 -0700, trhan@serv.net (Teri Rhan) wrote: > In article <5k5erm$7bc$1@bilbo.reference.com>, > wrote: > >Also on April 27th, I attempted to post this note: snip > >WWW.dejanews.com archives for only 5 years, I believe. Since > >it might be a continuing problem of interest, various facets of > >which we're raised during the discussion and voting periods, > >I wonder what others think? > > > >Any ideas? > > > >Frederick Glaysher >Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > Frederick, > I think you should give it a rest. I no longer view alt.religion.bahai > because most of the postings are your incessant negative comments about > this issue. I'm sorry but this does not demonstrate the Baha'i Faith > I know and love. What of the "incessant negative comments" of those delighted to see talk.religion.bahai defeated? Theirs are all right? I should not respond to THOSE comments? You're not being fair. Perhaps your experience as a Bahai is limited. Can you entertain that possibility? > I voted NO, never having read the alleged Towfigh campaign simply because > I thought it was a bad idea. Which is not proper grounds for a NO vote. Aren't you aware of that yet? Haven't you been paying attention to my and others' messages? Must you continually badger us with your > anti-Bahai campaign? Where is the promotion of Unity? Let it go. Get on > with your life. I've had enough! "Anti-Bahai campaign": I am not promoting such a campaign; I am responding to what I believe was one.... I believe censorship, oppression, lies, deceit, under-handed back-channel communication, such as Towfiq's, is disreputable and much more damaging, in the long run, to the Bahai Faith than open communication and discussion. "Unity" on the model of the Soviet Union, or fascism, is not my interpretation of the Bahai Faith or the "promotion of unity" the 691 had in mind.... We could always pretend, Teri, that things are the way that we want them to be and live in a little dream world of "unity" and bliss.... Alas, we live in a different world.... > > Teri Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -- Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Thu May 01 08:06:50 1997 >From jbh5@cornell.edu Wed Apr 30 07:20:30 1997 Received: from [128.253.239.71] ([128.253.239.71]) by postoffice.mail.cornell.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA22984 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 1997 10:20:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jbh5@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199704301000.DAA16709@f26.hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 09:19:26 -0400 To: "Frederick Glaysher" From: "Jean B. Hunter" Subject: Re: Archive: Talk.religion.bahai X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 3323 >Sorry, Jean. I don't really know how to fix the problem. On my >screen there are no double spaces.... I realize it must be very >annoying to others but when I read the messages off >alt.religion.bahai they're all single spaces.... We need a tech >genius to figure this one out, I fear. > >Any ideas? Maybe it has to do with word wrap? Do you put a carriage return at the end of the lines, or let the computer wrap the lines around at the end of each line? To test this, send two multiline messages at the same time, one with carriage returns, the other with only word wrap. If I see a difference I'll let you know. > >The reason I've posted more than one copy to alt.religion.bahai >is because it was suggested that would help propagate it more >quickly. If you notice each copy to alt.religion.bahai has a >couple of different crossposts to other newsgroups, helping to >spread a.r.b around the Internet faster than a couple of months. Yes, I noticed, but what about putting all the crossposts on a single message? > >Why don't you post once in a while? Are you afraid? Oh Fred, how am I going to say this without getting you upset? Please take a deep breath and count to ten... I am not afraid of the Institutions in the least, but having seen how you flame people who disagree with you, accusing them of violating your rights and trying to silence you, and comparing them to Hitler and the present-day Iranian government, well I just don't want to set myself up as a public target for your anger and sarcasm. I will post to a.r.b. when I have something sufficiently important and unique to say, that I won't mind getting flamed for it. BTW, if you want to post this to a.r.b., you have my permission. Regards, Jean in Ithaca > >Fred >-- > >>From jbh5@cornell.edu Tue Apr 29 13:37:12 1997 >>Received: from 128.253.239.71 ([128.253.239.71]) >>by cornell.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA27106 >>for ; Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:36:50 -0400 (EDT) >>Message-Id: <199704292036.QAA27106@cornell.edu> >>Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:50:53 -0400 >>From: jbh5@cornell.edu (Jean Hunter) >>To: FG@hotmail.com >>Subject: Re: Archive: Talk.religion.bahai >>References: <5k5emh$73l$1@bilbo.reference.com> >>Organization: Cornell University >> >>Dear Fred, Alla-u-abha. >> >>I've been following a.r.b. since its inception and would like to ask you a >>favor. >> >>Most of your posts appear multiple times, apparently because you are >>posting them to several different sets of newsgroups. Would it be >>possible to send just one copy of each post to a.r.b? >> >>Another thing is, that your newsreader tends to double space your text, >>and it even double spaces the double spaces when replies go back and forth. >>Is it possible to fix this feature so that your posts are single spaced? >>They do read much better that way. >> >>Regards, >>Jean >> > >-- >Frederick Glaysher >Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > >--------------------------------------------------------- >Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at https://www.hotmail.com >--------------------------------------------------------- jbh5@cornell.edu Ithaca, NY, USA, Earth, Universe --*** ***-- -** * -* **--- **- -*-- *-* From - Fri Feb 07 16:22:16 1997 Received: from topeka.cjnetworks.com (206.52.158.250) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 07 Feb 1997 12:08:37 -0500 Received: from rick.cjnetworks.com (Port37.cjnetworks.com [206.52.158.47]) by topeka.cjnetworks.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA09292 for <@moa.net>; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:14:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199702071714.LAA09292@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:14:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Backchannel response. --> not a mod note. Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com Priority: normal In-reply-to: <32FB27AD.57F7@moa.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5072 Hi Frederick, I was reading this in the incoming, (NOTE: I am not the on-duty moderator this week, and don't _have_ to evaluate this for posting. I just wanna ask you a question. ) I know from chatting with Ahmadi, and he's well aware of the content of Dean Johnathan Swift's little essay. In his extreme politeness, -- perhaps too extreme -- he's trying to say that to title this article, which he and I have both had copies of "A Modest Proposal" strikes the analogy between the Irish poor selling their children to feed the idle rich thus solving both the famine and poverty by turning a resource drain into an income source. His position, and of course, it would be better if he had expressed it directly to the newsgroup rather than the odd question format he used, is that the analogy between selling and eating children, and the articles call for term limits, asking the delegates to throw out the experiance of the NSA along in a feeding frenzy of legislation is strong. Ahmadi felt that the analogy was too vicious and too hateful to be reasonably published. Of course, many people are _very_ uncomfortable with sarcasm, and can not identify a distinction between sarcasm and hateful attacks. The moderators of SRB have that problem with your posts sometimes. Anyway, as I said, better for Ahmadi to defend himself, but I thought the information that he _does_ understand the liturature would be useful to you. Rick > ahmadi wrote: > > > > The "Dialogue" matter has been brought up again and I hope something > > good can come out of it. > > > [clip] > > > > The editors of "Dialgoue" wrote an article in which suggestions > > were made to tweek the Baha'i electoral process and named it > > "A Modest Proposal". > > > > 1. Was that an appropriate title? > > > > It was an excellent title alluding to a worthy tradition in Western > civilization, where the article was to appear, incidentally. What's > the matter, don't you recognize the allusion? > > > 2. Was attempting to publish such an article, with such a > > title an appropriate channel for making suggestions to the > > Institutions of the Faith? > > > > I don't see anything wrong with it. No reason why alone the > magazine should have been intolerantly crushed. > > > My answers: > > > > 1. No - as Susan said the choice for the title is "mischieveous". > > The original was a satire and its use, as far as I can see, had > > little with the content of the article and therefore, it seems to > > me, was a reference to something else. > > > > Such things evoke satire in the human soul. It's a healthy literary > response to oppression and tyranny. You're demonizing their intents. > Speak your mind. Have the courage to say what you think. > That right is guaranteed us in the Bahai Writings, remember? > > > 2. No - the authors of the article could have made the suggestions > > at their respective district conventions or at the national convention > > since two were among the delegates. They could have even made the > > suggestions directly to the Universal House of Justice. Instead, > > it seems, they decided to go public with their ideas and use the > > disturbing title of "A Modest Proposal". > > > > The Bahai Faith is going to rule the world, but it can't tolerate a few > young men and women expressing their opinions.... Ah, gee, folks, why > aren't the masses pouring into this religion? Ooops! Is that satire? > (Alas, I know better.... It's my shameful grounding in the Western > literary tradition that I need to outgrow and rise above....) > > > This type of discourse would not be out of place in secular America - > > in fact that is how a lot of things are done. > > Oh EVIL, SECULAR AMERICA! The Wanton of the West! Now, what region > of the world is the cradle of spirituality? Any guesses? Preferable > any day of the week to the way things are done, let's say, in Iran.... > > But the Order of Baha > > can not be subsumed within how American democracy has developed. > > Consultation is, or should be, inherently reverant - not only > > reverant to the Holy Figures but reverant to its Instituions > > as well as the Baha'i community. > > Let's put them in a dark pit and rip out their tongues! By God, we all > know what reverent means...and they fall short.... > > What was done, probably with > > the best of intentions, I think, created at adverserial atmosphere > > which, while at the heart of the relationship between the press and > > the government in most Western socities, is alien to the teachings > > of Baha'u'llah. > > > > I don't believe Baha'u'llah conceived of the relationship between the > press and government as lackies to leaders--propaganda for the > annointed. > > [clip] > > > > > regards, > > -saman > > > > I hope some good can come of it too, but have my doubts.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > From - Wed Apr 09 08:20:11 1997 >From mirele@xmission.com Mon Mar 17 20:53:17 1997 Received: from slc171a.modem.xmission.com (mirele@slc171a.modem.xmission.com [204.228.136.171]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id VAA11313 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:53:09 -0700 (MST) From: mirele@xmission.com (Deana M. Holmes (NED for OTs Series)) To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Baha'i email lists Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 04:53:47 GMT Organization: Knights of Xenu, Kingdom of Deseret Chapter Message-ID: <332e1fac.2414887@xmission.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99g/16.339 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 3818 =46YI from the following web page https://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~saf/bahai/uhj/email.html E-MAIL DISCUSSION GROUPS=20 Dear Bah=E1'=ED Friend,=20 The Universal House of Justice received your email of 2 December 1995,=20 and has instructed us to send you the following replies to the questions=20 you raise.=20 The House of Justice notes that you have been disturbed by some of the=20 postings made to the email discussion group of which you have recently=20 been a member. Email discussion groups are a new phenomenon; they can=20 provide immense benefits for communication between people and for the=20 teaching of the Faith, but, as you have seen, they can also give rise to=20 far-reaching problems. The use of email requires an adjustment of=20 perception. In the past, discussions among Bah=E1'=EDs would take place=20 orally among groups of friends in private, or at summer schools and=20 other Bah=E1'=ED events, or in letters between individuals. Inevitably, = many=20 erroneous statements were made; not all comments were as temperate as=20 they should have been; many statements were misunderstood by those who=20 heard them. After all, not all Bah=E1'=EDs have a profound knowledge of = the=20 teachings, and it is clear that even academic eminence is no guarantee=20 of a correct understanding of the Revelation of God. Before email such=20 extravagances had a limited range and were of an ephemeral nature. Now,=20 the same kind of discussion is spread among a hundred or more people,=20 who often do not know one another, is in a form more durable than=20 speech, and can be disseminated to a vast readership at the touch of a=20 button. A new level of self-discipline, therefore, is needed by those=20 who take part. Such discussions among Bah=E1'=EDs call for self-restraint= =20 and purity of motive as well as cordiality, frankness and openness.=20 The central, unifying element of the Faith is the Covenant. This is the=20 institution which guarantees that the Faith and its teachings will=20 remain true to the Revelation brought by Bah=E1'u'll=E1h and expounded by= =20 His divinely guided Interpreters. It is the one agency which can protect=20 the Faith against the distortion and disruption to which all previous=20 Revelations have been subjected by the efforts -- whether=20 well-intentioned or not -- of the self-opinionated and ambitious among=20 their followers to force the Cause of God into patterns which they=20 personally favoured.=20 Thus, if any participant in an email discussion feels that a view put=20 forward appears to contradict or undermine the provisions of the=20 Covenant, he should be free to say so, explaining candidly and=20 courteously why he feels as he does. The person who made the initial=20 statement will then be able to re-evaluate his opinion and, if he still=20 believes it to be valid, he should be able to explain why it is not=20 contrary to either the letter or the spirit of the Covenant. The=20 participants in such a discussion should avoid disputation and, if they=20 are unable to resolve an issue, they should refer the point to the=20 Universal House of Justice since, in accordance with the Will and=20 Testament of `Abdu'l-Bah=E1, "By this body all the difficult problems are= =20 to be resolved..." and it has the authority to decide upon "all problems=20 which have caused difference, questions that are obscure, and matters=20 that are not expressly recorded in the Book." In this way the Covenant=20 can illuminate and temper the discourse and make it fruitful.=20 [On Behalf of the Universal House of Justice]=20 Deana M. Holmes alt.religion.scientology archivist since February 1995 April 1996 Poster Child for Clueless $cientology Litigiousness mirele@xmission.com From - Thu Apr 10 08:14:55 1997 >From mirele@xmission.com Mon Mar 17 20:53:17 1997 Received: from slc171a.modem.xmission.com (mirele@slc171a.modem.xmission.com [204.228.136.171]) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id VAA11313 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:53:09 -0700 (MST) From: mirele@xmission.com (Deana M. Holmes (NED for OTs Series)) To: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Baha'i email lists Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 04:53:47 GMT Organization: Knights of Xenu, Kingdom of Deseret Chapter Message-ID: <332e1fac.2414887@xmission.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99g/16.339 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 3818 =46YI from the following web page https://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~saf/bahai/uhj/email.html E-MAIL DISCUSSION GROUPS=20 Dear Bah=E1'=ED Friend,=20 The Universal House of Justice received your email of 2 December 1995,=20 and has instructed us to send you the following replies to the questions=20 you raise.=20 The House of Justice notes that you have been disturbed by some of the=20 postings made to the email discussion group of which you have recently=20 been a member. Email discussion groups are a new phenomenon; they can=20 provide immense benefits for communication between people and for the=20 teaching of the Faith, but, as you have seen, they can also give rise to=20 far-reaching problems. The use of email requires an adjustment of=20 perception. In the past, discussions among Bah=E1'=EDs would take place=20 orally among groups of friends in private, or at summer schools and=20 other Bah=E1'=ED events, or in letters between individuals. Inevitably, = many=20 erroneous statements were made; not all comments were as temperate as=20 they should have been; many statements were misunderstood by those who=20 heard them. After all, not all Bah=E1'=EDs have a profound knowledge of = the=20 teachings, and it is clear that even academic eminence is no guarantee=20 of a correct understanding of the Revelation of God. Before email such=20 extravagances had a limited range and were of an ephemeral nature. Now,=20 the same kind of discussion is spread among a hundred or more people,=20 who often do not know one another, is in a form more durable than=20 speech, and can be disseminated to a vast readership at the touch of a=20 button. A new level of self-discipline, therefore, is needed by those=20 who take part. Such discussions among Bah=E1'=EDs call for self-restraint= =20 and purity of motive as well as cordiality, frankness and openness.=20 The central, unifying element of the Faith is the Covenant. This is the=20 institution which guarantees that the Faith and its teachings will=20 remain true to the Revelation brought by Bah=E1'u'll=E1h and expounded by= =20 His divinely guided Interpreters. It is the one agency which can protect=20 the Faith against the distortion and disruption to which all previous=20 Revelations have been subjected by the efforts -- whether=20 well-intentioned or not -- of the self-opinionated and ambitious among=20 their followers to force the Cause of God into patterns which they=20 personally favoured.=20 Thus, if any participant in an email discussion feels that a view put=20 forward appears to contradict or undermine the provisions of the=20 Covenant, he should be free to say so, explaining candidly and=20 courteously why he feels as he does. The person who made the initial=20 statement will then be able to re-evaluate his opinion and, if he still=20 believes it to be valid, he should be able to explain why it is not=20 contrary to either the letter or the spirit of the Covenant. The=20 participants in such a discussion should avoid disputation and, if they=20 are unable to resolve an issue, they should refer the point to the=20 Universal House of Justice since, in accordance with the Will and=20 Testament of `Abdu'l-Bah=E1, "By this body all the difficult problems are= =20 to be resolved..." and it has the authority to decide upon "all problems=20 which have caused difference, questions that are obscure, and matters=20 that are not expressly recorded in the Book." In this way the Covenant=20 can illuminate and temper the discourse and make it fruitful.=20 [On Behalf of the Universal House of Justice]=20 Deana M. Holmes alt.religion.scientology archivist since February 1995 April 1996 Poster Child for Clueless $cientology Litigiousness mirele@xmission.com From - Sat Feb 01 13:06:06 1997 Received: from topeka.cjnetworks.com (206.52.158.250) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:15:36 -0500 Received: from rickboat (Port27.cjnetworks.com [206.52.158.37]) by topeka.cjnetworks.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id HAA08939 for <@moa.net>; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:21:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701311321.HAA08939@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:37:48 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Bahai faith & Usenet: t.r.b Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com Priority: normal In-reply-to: <32F1D872.FE6@moa.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 530 I note from the news.groups tracking post that the proposer's questionaire for TRB has not yet been returned which would block the CFV. Just a friendly reminder... Rick Boatright > > I just learned of the RFD for talk.religion.bahai. I presume it's > > too late to vote, but I wanted to express a couple of thoughts which > > apply more broadly to the faith and Usenet. Then I'll relate them > > back to the proposed newsgroup. > > > > It's not to late to vote. The 30 days for discussion ends Feb. 15th. From - Sat Feb 01 17:45:53 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.54) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 01 Feb 1997 17:31:02 -0500 Message-ID: <32F3C5E2.4267@moa.net> Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 17:38:26 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com Subject: Re: Bahai faith & Usenet: t.r.b References: <199701311321.HAA08939@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 856 Rick Boatright wrote: > > I note from the news.groups tracking post that the proposer's > questionaire for TRB has not yet been returned which would block the > CFV. Just a friendly reminder... > > Rick Boatright Thanks for mentioning it. My system server is letting me down in a time of need for some technical reason that's beyond me and the system administrator so far. I'm unable to read any messages on news.groups other than the ones I myself have posted, including the UVV I suppose you are alluding to. I'd appreciate your confirming for me that the t.r.b proposal is mentioned there in a UVV. Other than my own postings, are there postings on news.groups discussing the RFD? I have until Feb 6th to get the questionnaire in and am working on it now. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 01 17:38:26 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32F3C5E2.4267@moa.net> Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 17:38:26 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com Subject: Re: Bahai faith & Usenet: t.r.b References: <199701311321.HAA08939@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 858 Rick Boatright wrote: > > I note from the news.groups tracking post that the proposer's > questionaire for TRB has not yet been returned which would block the > CFV. Just a friendly reminder... > > Rick Boatright Thanks for mentioning it. My system server is letting me down in a time of need for some technical reason that's beyond me and the system administrator so far. I'm unable to read any messages on news.groups other than the ones I myself have posted, including the UVV I suppose you are alluding to. I'd appreciate your confirming for me that the t.r.b proposal is mentioned there in a UVV. Other than my own postings, are there postings on news.groups discussing the RFD? I have until Feb 6th to get the questionnaire in and am working on it now. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 02 06:32:54 1997 Received: from topeka.cjnetworks.com (206.52.158.250) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 01 Feb 1997 17:48:38 -0500 Received: from rickboat (Port15.cjnetworks.com [206.52.158.25]) by topeka.cjnetworks.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA12985 for <@moa.net>; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:54:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199702012254.QAA12985@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:10:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Bahai faith & Usenet: t.r.b Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com Priority: normal In-reply-to: <32F3C5E2.4267@moa.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1279 if you have a web browserou could use www.dejanews.com to get n.g just search on news.groups...... rick > Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 17:38:26 -0500 > From: FG <@moa.net> > Reply-to: @moa.net > To: boatright@cjnetworks.com > Subject: Re: Bahai faith & Usenet: t.r.b > Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > I note from the news.groups tracking post that the proposer's > > questionaire for TRB has not yet been returned which would block the > > CFV. Just a friendly reminder... > > > > Rick Boatright > > Thanks for mentioning it. My system server is letting me down in a time > of need for some technical reason that's beyond me and the system > administrator > so far. I'm unable to read any messages on news.groups other than the > ones > I myself have posted, including the UVV I suppose you are alluding to. > I'd > appreciate your confirming for me that the t.r.b proposal is mentioned > there > in a UVV. > > Other than my own postings, are there postings on news.groups discussing > the RFD? > > I have until Feb 6th to get the questionnaire in and am working on it > now. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > From - Sun Feb 02 14:59:29 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.65) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 02 Feb 1997 14:36:13 -0500 Message-ID: <32F4EE6D.3C46@moa.net> Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 14:43:41 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com Subject: Re: Bahai faith & Usenet: t.r.b References: <199702012254.QAA12985@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 351 Rick Boatright wrote: > > if you have a web browserou could use www.dejanews.com to get n.g > just search on news.groups...... > > rick > Thanks for the tip on dejanews.com. I've tried it and it seems to work at least for now until my system administrator gets the problem fixed. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Fri Jan 31 05:55:09 1997 Received: from msunews.cl.msu.edu (35.8.2.20) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:21:35 -0500 Received: by msunews.cl.msu.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA48726; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:26:51 -0500 To: soc-religion-bahai@relay2.uu.net Path: news From: Donald Zhang Osborn Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: Baha'i Faith & Usenet: Teach or expend efforts fruitlessly? Date: 30 Jan 1997 20:26:48 GMT Organization: ---- Lines: 97 Message-Id: <5cr068$puk@msunews.cl.msu.edu> References: <5c2kt7$h6r@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Nntp-Posting-Host: meke.isp.msu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit) To: @MOA.net, osborndo@pilot.msu.edu X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5329 "At the outset of every endeavor, it is incumbent to look to the end of it." - Baha'u'llah I just learned of the RFD for talk.religion.bahai. I presume it's too late to vote, but I wanted to express a couple of thoughts which apply more broadly to the faith and Usenet. Then I'll relate them back to the proposed newsgroup. First, anyone who has ventured out of s.r.b. and other moderated newsgroups on Usenet can see that there is a wierd mix of the vilest sort of thoughts and language with pronouncements of various sorts, banter, and some sincere exchanges (questions, answers). I spent a little time posting selected items to selected groups about the Faith, and found some interesting responses a few times and think that I put the name of the Faith in a positive light before a number of Usenet readers for brief whiles. Yet I cringed sometimes when I saw the name of the Faith in my header juxtaposed to some racist or otherwise barbaric statement in capital letters. I mentioned the possibility of teaching on the Usenet on a Baha'i list and one response said that it was like teaching in a saloon. Truth. But some people in the saloon aren't boozing, smashing chairs, or whiling their time and money away at poker. For those people I thought, the message should be there, & the name of the Faith should be shining through--especially on groups that nominally, at least, deal with religion. In the brief while I was a "Usenet pioneer" (pardon the pretense), I concluded that it is good & necessary to have some of the Friends post selectively, prayerfully, and intelligently to diverse Usenet groups. The idea of starting an unmoderated Baha'i newsgroup is one that is good to bring up, but it is a totally different matter. Although I agree that the Faith will grow despite (& indeed because of) whatever happens on the Usenet (even t.r.b.) or elsewhere, the idea of an unmoderated Baha'i newsgroup has several shortcomings: 1) It would attract the same volume of vile and trash messages that other unmoderated newsgroups get, without adding significantly to the electronic discussions of the Faith that already go on on s.r.b. &c. I don't see that moderated s.r.b. has any limitation, and it is a whole lot more pleasant to read than the groups where one has to pick though to find the few worthwhile messages. I don't think t.r.b. would contribute positively to dialogue on the Faith. 2) It would take many Baha'is' time away from other kinds of teaching (on s.r.b., other Usenet groups, or the real world [it's out there, I can see it]) in order to deal with pointless and outrageous statements (such as insulting lies about the central figures of the Faith as have been posted [in the form of "questions"] on soc.culture.iranian within the last year). Of course the truth will prevail, but why invite this sort of stuff and waste our time with it when sincere people who might not visit an unmoderated Baha'i newsgroup don't get a chance to ask their questions? I don't think t.r.b. would be a good use of our time. 3) Furthermore, it is symptomatic of the "open our doors" style of proclamation/teaching. This requires some explanation: Baha'i communities are historically very good at opening their doors and inviting people to come. This is *part* of the essence of a fireside and laudable. However, it only works up to a point, and there needs to be a considerable amount of grassroots work--personal contacts, personal invitations, well presented invitations to groups & the public, discussions on issues that religion addresses, &c--in order to make the "open our doors" event successful. Many communities, however, seem to get stuck in the "open our doors" mode (even for Feast--"well the Feast date was announced..."). THe talk.religion.bahai proposal seems to be similar: another newsgroup will attract different people to discuss the Faith & we can teach those who are interested. But why not instead take the discussion in a judicious manner to other groups: alt.religion & talk.religion.misc to name only two, and see how that develops? I think there is a tremendous potential there which has been barely explored. People who are interested in learning more about the Baha'i religion from discussions in general religion or other groups can then delve into s.r.b. with their questions. Example? A while back on soc.culture.iranian someone claimed that the Baha'i teachings were incompatible with Zoroastrianism. This was in response to a Baha'i's mentioning of Baha'i teachings on the unity of religion. Eventually one of the s.c.i. readers (a Baha'i, I believe) suggested that he take his ideas to s.r.b. - and he did. An interesting discussion ensued (perhaps some of you participated in it). So, IMHO, t.r.b. would not contribute significantly to teaching the Faith. Anyway, with thanks to Frederick and others for bringing up the idea of talk.religion.bahai, for it is worth discussing. Hovever, I would have voted no. Don Osborn osborndo@pilot.msu.edu "How often have things been simple and easy of accomplishment, yet men have been heedless, and busied themselves with that which wasteth their time." - Baha'u'llah From - Fri Jan 31 05:55:05 1997 Received: from pilot16.cl.msu.edu (35.9.5.26) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:21:29 -0500 Received: from algeria (meke.isp.msu.edu [35.8.242.49]) by pilot16.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id PAA33467; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:27:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199701302027.PAA33467@pilot16.cl.msu.edu> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 15:29:21 -0800 From: Donald Zhang Osborn Organization: ---- X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai To: @MOA.net, osborndo@pilot.msu.edu Subject: Baha'i Faith & Usenet: Teach or expend efforts fruitlessly? References: <5c2kt7$h6r@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5331 "At the outset of every endeavor, it is incumbent to look to the end of it." - Baha'u'llah I just learned of the RFD for talk.religion.bahai. I presume it's too late to vote, but I wanted to express a couple of thoughts which apply more broadly to the faith and Usenet. Then I'll relate them back to the proposed newsgroup. First, anyone who has ventured out of s.r.b. and other moderated newsgroups on Usenet can see that there is a wierd mix of the vilest sort of thoughts and language with pronouncements of various sorts, banter, and some sincere exchanges (questions, answers). I spent a little time posting selected items to selected groups about the Faith, and found some interesting responses a few times and think that I put the name of the Faith in a positive light before a number of Usenet readers for brief whiles. Yet I cringed sometimes when I saw the name of the Faith in my header juxtaposed to some racist or otherwise barbaric statement in capital letters. I mentioned the possibility of teaching on the Usenet on a Baha'i list and one response said that it was like teaching in a saloon. Truth. But some people in the saloon aren't boozing, smashing chairs, or whiling their time and money away at poker. For those people I thought, the message should be there, & the name of the Faith should be shining through--especially on groups that nominally, at least, deal with religion. In the brief while I was a "Usenet pioneer" (pardon the pretense), I concluded that it is good & necessary to have some of the Friends post selectively, prayerfully, and intelligently to diverse Usenet groups. The idea of starting an unmoderated Baha'i newsgroup is one that is good to bring up, but it is a totally different matter. Although I agree that the Faith will grow despite (& indeed because of) whatever happens on the Usenet (even t.r.b.) or elsewhere, the idea of an unmoderated Baha'i newsgroup has several shortcomings: 1) It would attract the same volume of vile and trash messages that other unmoderated newsgroups get, without adding significantly to the electronic discussions of the Faith that already go on on s.r.b. &c. I don't see that moderated s.r.b. has any limitation, and it is a whole lot more pleasant to read than the groups where one has to pick though to find the few worthwhile messages. I don't think t.r.b. would contribute positively to dialogue on the Faith. 2) It would take many Baha'is' time away from other kinds of teaching (on s.r.b., other Usenet groups, or the real world [it's out there, I can see it]) in order to deal with pointless and outrageous statements (such as insulting lies about the central figures of the Faith as have been posted [in the form of "questions"] on soc.culture.iranian within the last year). Of course the truth will prevail, but why invite this sort of stuff and waste our time with it when sincere people who might not visit an unmoderated Baha'i newsgroup don't get a chance to ask their questions? I don't think t.r.b. would be a good use of our time. 3) Furthermore, it is symptomatic of the "open our doors" style of proclamation/teaching. This requires some explanation: Baha'i communities are historically very good at opening their doors and inviting people to come. This is *part* of the essence of a fireside and laudable. However, it only works up to a point, and there needs to be a considerable amount of grassroots work--personal contacts, personal invitations, well presented invitations to groups & the public, discussions on issues that religion addresses, &c--in order to make the "open our doors" event successful. Many communities, however, seem to get stuck in the "open our doors" mode (even for Feast--"well the Feast date was announced..."). THe talk.religion.bahai proposal seems to be similar: another newsgroup will attract different people to discuss the Faith & we can teach those who are interested. But why not instead take the discussion in a judicious manner to other groups: alt.religion & talk.religion.misc to name only two, and see how that develops? I think there is a tremendous potential there which has been barely explored. People who are interested in learning more about the Baha'i religion from discussions in general religion or other groups can then delve into s.r.b. with their questions. Example? A while back on soc.culture.iranian someone claimed that the Baha'i teachings were incompatible with Zoroastrianism. This was in response to a Baha'i's mentioning of Baha'i teachings on the unity of religion. Eventually one of the s.c.i. readers (a Baha'i, I believe) suggested that he take his ideas to s.r.b. - and he did. An interesting discussion ensued (perhaps some of you participated in it). So, IMHO, t.r.b. would not contribute significantly to teaching the Faith. Anyway, with thanks to Frederick and others for bringing up the idea of talk.religion.bahai, for it is worth discussing. Hovever, I would have voted no. Don Osborn osborndo@pilot.msu.edu "How often have things been simple and easy of accomplishment, yet men have been heedless, and busied themselves with that which wasteth their time." - Baha'u'llah From - Thu Apr 10 08:21:49 1997 >From brentreed@aol.com Sat Apr 5 14:12:34 1997 Received: from ladder01.news.aol.com (ladder01.news-fddi.aol.com [172.16.30.168]) by ngeout01.news.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA01296 for ; Sat, 5 Apr 1997 17:18:35 -0500 Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 17:12:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <19970405221200.RAA29443@ladder01.news.aol.com> Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian To: FG@hotmail.com From: brentreed@aol.com (BrentReed) Organization: AOL https://www.aol.com References: <5i5gav$e6p$1@bilbo.reference.com> Subject: Re: Bahai institution participated in voter f X-Mozilla-Status: 0014 Content-Length: 201 Dear Frederick: Would you mind sending me a copy of that letter from the NSA of Iceland, and keep me briefed on developments relating to their attempts to censor. Brent Reed brentreed@aol.com From - Mon Apr 07 07:17:17 1997 >From 72110.2126@compuserve.com Sun Apr 6 12:47:11 1997 Received: by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id PAA26842; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 15:47:05 -0400 Date: 06 Apr 97 15:44:51 EDT From: David Langness <72110.2126@CompuServe.COM> To: Subject: Re: Bahai institution participated in voter fraud: talk.religion.bahai Message-ID: <970406194451_72110.2126_JHR81-1@CompuServe.COM> X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 263 Dear Frederick, You know, I'd be very interested -- and I know a few historians who would be, too -- in seeing the voting lists for both the yes and no sides on the talk.religion.bahai tally. Please forward them if you can. thanks, and love, David From - Mon Apr 07 07:54:13 1997 >From panuser@reference.com Sun Apr 6 03:37:22 1997 Received: (from panuser@localhost) by shadowfax.reference.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id DAA17722; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 03:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 03:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704061035.DAA17722@shadowfax.reference.com> From: FG@hotmail.com Newsgroups: alt.religion.bahai Cc: FG@hotmail.com Subject: Bahai institution participated voter fraud: talk.religion.bahai Organization: Reference.Com Posting Service X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Content-Length: 2410 April 5, 1997 The Universal House of Justice of the Bahais of the World Haifa, Israel Dear Members of the Universal House of Justice: I am grieved to have to bring to your attention the participation of one of the national assemblies in the No vote campaign that was waged against talk.religion.bahai by Mr. Mark Towfiq and others recently on the Internet. I am perplexed that a body of the Faith would involve itself in such a matter and participate in what many observers believe was blatant voter fraud in violation of the clear custom of procedure in the creation of Usenet groups. Since it appears all the more that it may have been an official policy or decision of the institutions to oppose the creation of talk.religion.bahai, I would appreciate an official response and explanation as to why such action was taken and where in the Bahai Writings guidance was found for the suppression of free speech and religious conscience. I am also sending a courtesy copy to the NSA of the Bahais of Iceland. Respectfully, Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -- Subject: Re: Talk.Religion.Bahai Fails Official Complaint From: pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu (K. Paul Johnson) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 21:38:20 GMT Message-ID: <1997Mar28.213820.13454@leo.vsla.edu> Organization: Virginia State Library Newsgroups: news.groups References: [clip] The more you know about Baha'i, the more obvious it is. In looking over the list of no votes, I saw dozens of names of people who on various lists and on s.r.b. have been upholders of orthodoxy shouting down any criticism or dissent. Among the no voters was the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of Iceland, two current members of the NSA of the United Kingdom, a former member of the NSA of the US, and scores of Iranian names I had never seen before, people who were called into action solely to prevent uncensored discussion of Baha'i issues. -- Posted using Reference.COM https://www.reference.com Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog. InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting. From - Thu Feb 20 07:44:52 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.45) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:51:05 -0500 Message-ID: <330C3C6D.5221@moa.net> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:58:37 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mfrankow@winternet.com Subject: Cancelled messages Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 197 News.groups is showing numerous cancelled messages from you to me, I think? Or are they cancellations of my messages? What's going on? -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Feb 20 06:58:37 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <330C3C6D.5221@moa.net> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:58:37 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mfrankow@winternet.com Subject: Cancelled messages Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 199 News.groups is showing numerous cancelled messages from you to me, I think? Or are they cancellations of my messages? What's going on? -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Wed Feb 19 13:05:51 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.36) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 07:29:10 -0500 Message-ID: <330AF3D9.B09@moa.net> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 07:36:41 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mfrankow@winternet.com CC: bugs@dejanews.com Subject: Cancelled messages on news.groups Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 232 A dozen or so cancelled messages have appeared under news.groups. My name and email is in the FROM, while the request to cancel bears your name and email. What's going on? -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Wed Feb 19 07:36:41 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <330AF3D9.B09@moa.net> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 07:36:41 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mfrankow@winternet.com CC: bugs@dejanews.com Subject: Cancelled messages on news.groups Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 234 A dozen or so cancelled messages have appeared under news.groups. My name and email is in the FROM, while the request to cancel bears your name and email. What's going on? -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Feb 20 06:48:01 1997 Received: from homer.dejanews.com (205.238.143.2) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 14:37:29 -0500 Received: from homer.dejanews.com (homer.dejanews.com [205.238.143.161]) by homer.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA17362 for <@moa.net>; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:43:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:43:03 -0600 (CST) From: User Liaison To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Subject: Re: Cancelled messages on news.groups In-Reply-To: <330AF3D9.B09@moa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 670 Greetings! I just looked up the articles with your address: @moa.net and I don't see any cancel messages. Could you send me the headers of the articles in question so that I can check into this? Let me know if I can help you with anything else... ______________________ Dieter Deja News User Liaison ______________________ On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > A dozen or so cancelled messages have appeared under news.groups. > My name and email is in the FROM, while the request to cancel > bears your name and email. What's going on? > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > From - Thu Feb 20 07:44:54 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.45) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:57:47 -0500 Message-ID: <330C3DFE.1DA8@moa.net> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:05:18 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: User Liaison Subject: Re: Cancelled messages on news.groups References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1353 User Liaison wrote: > > Greetings! > > I just looked up the articles with your address: > > @moa.net > > and I don't see any cancel messages. Could you send me the headers of the > articles in question so that I can check into this? > I not sure, but I'm worried someone else is cancelling my messages. The header reads: mfrankow@winternet.com (Michael Frankowski) 1997/02/18 Message-Id: Sender: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Control: cancel <856175821.15185@dejanews.com> Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service Newsgroups: news.groups There are 13 cancelled messages if you search news.groups, Feb. 18th, under my name: glaysher I did post a lot of messages that day.... > Let me know if I can help you with anything else... > ______________________ > > Dieter > > Deja News > User Liaison > ______________________ > > On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > A dozen or so cancelled messages have appeared under news.groups. > > My name and email is in the FROM, while the request to cancel > > bears your name and email. What's going on? > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Thu Feb 20 07:05:18 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <330C3DFE.1DA8@moa.net> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:05:18 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: User Liaison Subject: Re: Cancelled messages on news.groups References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1355 User Liaison wrote: > > Greetings! > > I just looked up the articles with your address: > > @moa.net > > and I don't see any cancel messages. Could you send me the headers of the > articles in question so that I can check into this? > I not sure, but I'm worried someone else is cancelling my messages. The header reads: mfrankow@winternet.com (Michael Frankowski) 1997/02/18 Message-Id: Sender: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Control: cancel <856175821.15185@dejanews.com> Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service Newsgroups: news.groups There are 13 cancelled messages if you search news.groups, Feb. 18th, under my name: glaysher I did post a lot of messages that day.... > Let me know if I can help you with anything else... > ______________________ > > Dieter > > Deja News > User Liaison > ______________________ > > On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > A dozen or so cancelled messages have appeared under news.groups. > > My name and email is in the FROM, while the request to cancel > > bears your name and email. What's going on? > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Fri Feb 21 07:42:46 1997 Received: from homer.dejanews.com (205.238.143.2) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:27:24 -0500 Received: from homer.dejanews.com (homer.dejanews.com [205.238.143.161]) by homer.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA28329 for <@moa.net>; Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:33:01 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:33:01 -0600 (CST) From: User Liaison To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Subject: Re: Cancelled messages on news.groups In-Reply-To: <330C3DFE.1DA8@moa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 2450 Hey there, Yeah, I see what you're saying, someone is canceling your messages to Usenet. This isn't a function of Deja News, it is a Usenet command. Usually, this function is reserved for people trying to get rid of spam (messages they believe are posted to the wrong newsgroup). If you truly believe that you weren't spamming, you could see if someone at news.admin can help you, but we can't (we have NO authority over Usenet in general). However, we're doing what we can, we don't honor cancel messages for just this reason, too easy to forge. In order for your messages to be taken out of our database, one must prove that they're the author of the message. So, if your messages make it to us before they get cancelled (very likely), they'll be archived. Good luck. Let me know if I can help you with anything else... ______________________ Dieter Deja News User Liaison ______________________ On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > User Liaison wrote: > > > > Greetings! > > > > I just looked up the articles with your address: > > > > @moa.net > > > > and I don't see any cancel messages. Could you send me the headers of the > > articles in question so that I can check into this? > > > > > I not sure, but I'm worried someone else is cancelling my messages. > The header reads: > > mfrankow@winternet.com (Michael Frankowski) > 1997/02/18 > Message-Id: > Sender: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > Control: cancel <856175821.15185@dejanews.com> > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > Newsgroups: news.groups > > There are 13 cancelled messages if you search news.groups, > Feb. 18th, under my name: glaysher > > I did post a lot of messages that day.... > > > > Let me know if I can help you with anything else... > > ______________________ > > > > Dieter > > > > Deja News > > User Liaison > > ______________________ > > > > On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > A dozen or so cancelled messages have appeared under news.groups. > > > My name and email is in the FROM, while the request to cancel > > > bears your name and email. What's going on? > > > > > > -- > > > Frederick Glaysher > > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > > > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > From - Fri Feb 21 08:26:53 1997 Received: from default (204.38.255.39) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 21 Feb 1997 08:18:23 -0500 Message-ID: <330DA262.7BE3@moa.net> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 08:25:54 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: User Liaison Subject: Re: Cancelled messages on news.groups References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 2989 User Liaison wrote: > > Hey there, > > Yeah, I see what you're saying, someone is canceling your messages to > Usenet. This isn't a function of Deja News, it is a Usenet command. > Usually, this function is reserved for people trying to get rid of spam > (messages they believe are posted to the wrong newsgroup). If you truly > believe that you weren't spamming, you could see if someone at news.admin > can help you, but we can't (we have NO authority over Usenet in general). > However, we're doing what we can, we don't honor cancel messages for just > this reason, too easy to forge. In order for your messages to be taken > out of our database, one must prove that they're the author of the > message. So, if your messages make it to us before they get cancelled > (very likely), they'll be archived. If my messages are archived, can they somehow be restored or resent? I'm involved in the middle of getting a proposal for a new newsgroup discussed and voted on. It would help a lot if the discussion could be continued. I've emailed UVV, my group-mentor on USEnet, and posted to news.admin.net-abuse. > > Good luck. > > Let me know if I can help you with anything else... > ______________________ > > Dieter > > Deja News > User Liaison > ______________________ > > On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > User Liaison wrote: > > > > > > Greetings! > > > > > > I just looked up the articles with your address: > > > > > > @moa.net > > > > > > and I don't see any cancel messages. Could you send me the headers of the > > > articles in question so that I can check into this? > > > > > > > > > I not sure, but I'm worried someone else is cancelling my messages. > > The header reads: > > > > mfrankow@winternet.com (Michael Frankowski) > > 1997/02/18 > > Message-Id: > > Sender: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Control: cancel <856175821.15185@dejanews.com> > > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > > Newsgroups: news.groups > > > > There are 13 cancelled messages if you search news.groups, > > Feb. 18th, under my name: glaysher > > > > I did post a lot of messages that day.... > > > > > > > Let me know if I can help you with anything else... > > > ______________________ > > > > > > Dieter > > > > > > Deja News > > > User Liaison > > > ______________________ > > > > > > On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > > > A dozen or so cancelled messages have appeared under news.groups. > > > > My name and email is in the FROM, while the request to cancel > > > > bears your name and email. What's going on? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Fri Feb 21 08:25:54 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <330DA262.7BE3@moa.net> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 08:25:54 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: User Liaison Subject: Re: Cancelled messages on news.groups References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 2991 User Liaison wrote: > > Hey there, > > Yeah, I see what you're saying, someone is canceling your messages to > Usenet. This isn't a function of Deja News, it is a Usenet command. > Usually, this function is reserved for people trying to get rid of spam > (messages they believe are posted to the wrong newsgroup). If you truly > believe that you weren't spamming, you could see if someone at news.admin > can help you, but we can't (we have NO authority over Usenet in general). > However, we're doing what we can, we don't honor cancel messages for just > this reason, too easy to forge. In order for your messages to be taken > out of our database, one must prove that they're the author of the > message. So, if your messages make it to us before they get cancelled > (very likely), they'll be archived. If my messages are archived, can they somehow be restored or resent? I'm involved in the middle of getting a proposal for a new newsgroup discussed and voted on. It would help a lot if the discussion could be continued. I've emailed UVV, my group-mentor on USEnet, and posted to news.admin.net-abuse. > > Good luck. > > Let me know if I can help you with anything else... > ______________________ > > Dieter > > Deja News > User Liaison > ______________________ > > On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > User Liaison wrote: > > > > > > Greetings! > > > > > > I just looked up the articles with your address: > > > > > > @moa.net > > > > > > and I don't see any cancel messages. Could you send me the headers of the > > > articles in question so that I can check into this? > > > > > > > > > I not sure, but I'm worried someone else is cancelling my messages. > > The header reads: > > > > mfrankow@winternet.com (Michael Frankowski) > > 1997/02/18 > > Message-Id: > > Sender: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Control: cancel <856175821.15185@dejanews.com> > > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > > Newsgroups: news.groups > > > > There are 13 cancelled messages if you search news.groups, > > Feb. 18th, under my name: glaysher > > > > I did post a lot of messages that day.... > > > > > > > Let me know if I can help you with anything else... > > > ______________________ > > > > > > Dieter > > > > > > Deja News > > > User Liaison > > > ______________________ > > > > > > On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > > > A dozen or so cancelled messages have appeared under news.groups. > > > > My name and email is in the FROM, while the request to cancel > > > > bears your name and email. What's going on? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 22 08:07:31 1997 Received: from homer.dejanews.com (205.238.143.2) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Fri, 21 Feb 1997 11:07:07 -0500 Received: from homer.dejanews.com (homer.dejanews.com [205.238.143.161]) by homer.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA23102 for <@moa.net>; Fri, 21 Feb 1997 10:12:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 10:12:44 -0600 (CST) From: User Liaison To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> Subject: Re: Cancelled messages on news.groups In-Reply-To: <330DA262.7BE3@moa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 3784 Hmmm... Well, I don't think there is any way to resend an article that is in our database to usenet. You could find your articles in our search engine, then click on "reply by email" and then mail the articles to yourself. Once you get them back, you could then post the articles again as if they were new. Well, it's not a perfect solution, but it's the best one I can think of. Good luck. Let me know if I can help you with anything else... ______________________ Dieter Deja News User Liaison ______________________ On Fri, 21 Feb 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > User Liaison wrote: > > > > Hey there, > > > > Yeah, I see what you're saying, someone is canceling your messages to > > Usenet. This isn't a function of Deja News, it is a Usenet command. > > Usually, this function is reserved for people trying to get rid of spam > > (messages they believe are posted to the wrong newsgroup). If you truly > > believe that you weren't spamming, you could see if someone at news.admin > > can help you, but we can't (we have NO authority over Usenet in general). > > However, we're doing what we can, we don't honor cancel messages for just > > this reason, too easy to forge. In order for your messages to be taken > > out of our database, one must prove that they're the author of the > > message. So, if your messages make it to us before they get cancelled > > (very likely), they'll be archived. > > > If my messages are archived, can they somehow be restored or resent? > I'm involved in the middle of getting a proposal for a new newsgroup > discussed and voted on. It would help a lot if the discussion could > be continued. I've emailed UVV, my group-mentor on USEnet, and posted > to news.admin.net-abuse. > > > > > > Good luck. > > > > Let me know if I can help you with anything else... > > ______________________ > > > > Dieter > > > > Deja News > > User Liaison > > ______________________ > > > > On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > User Liaison wrote: > > > > > > > > Greetings! > > > > > > > > I just looked up the articles with your address: > > > > > > > > @moa.net > > > > > > > > and I don't see any cancel messages. Could you send me the headers of the > > > > articles in question so that I can check into this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > I not sure, but I'm worried someone else is cancelling my messages. > > > The header reads: > > > > > > mfrankow@winternet.com (Michael Frankowski) > > > 1997/02/18 > > > Message-Id: > > > Sender: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > > Control: cancel <856175821.15185@dejanews.com> > > > Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service > > > Newsgroups: news.groups > > > > > > There are 13 cancelled messages if you search news.groups, > > > Feb. 18th, under my name: glaysher > > > > > > I did post a lot of messages that day.... > > > > > > > > > > Let me know if I can help you with anything else... > > > > ______________________ > > > > > > > > Dieter > > > > > > > > Deja News > > > > User Liaison > > > > ______________________ > > > > > > > > On Wed, 19 Feb 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > > > > > A dozen or so cancelled messages have appeared under news.groups. > > > > > My name and email is in the FROM, while the request to cancel > > > > > bears your name and email. What's going on? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > > > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Frederick Glaysher > > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > From - Mon Mar 03 17:28:24 1997 Received: from icicle.winternet.com (198.174.169.5) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 03 Mar 1997 15:06:39 -0500 Received: (from adm@localhost) by icicle.winternet.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) id OAA18729 for <@moa.net>; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:12:13 -0600 (CST) Posted-Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:12:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from snowcat.winternet.com(198.174.169.50) by icicle.winternet.com via smap (V2.0beta) id xma018708; Mon, 3 Mar 97 14:11:53 -0600 Received: (from mfrankow@localhost) by snowcat.winternet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14045 for @moa.net; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:11:52 -0600 (CST) From: Michael Frankowski Message-Id: <199703032011.OAA14045@snowcat.winternet.com> Subject: Re: Cancelled messages on news.groups To: @moa.net Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:11:52 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <330AF3D9.B09@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Feb 19, 97 07:36:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP6-MF] X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 809 Good Afternoon, I apologize for not writing to you sooner. I have been busy trying to clean up the mess caused by this person. > A dozen or so cancelled messages have appeared under news.groups. > My name and email is in the FROM, while the request to cancel > bears your name and email. What's going on? Someone has decided to forge my E-Mail address on a large chunk of cancel messages. I do not know why, my guess is that they wanted my to look as bad as possible in the most public way possible. So they hit usenet news with a huge number of cancels in my name. It certainly does make me look bad. I think that you have gotten caught in the middle of someone trying to make me look bad, and me. I apologize for any problems this caused, - Michael (mfrankow@winternet.com) From - Mon Feb 03 17:38:53 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.48) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 03 Feb 1997 16:13:06 -0500 Message-ID: <32F6569F.59E6@moa.net> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 16:20:31 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups To: ahmadi@why.net Subject: CENSORED by s.r.bahai References: <853543959.13303@uunet.uu.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 986 Subject: Re: Censorship on s.r.bahai-2 Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 09:51:12 +0000 From: ahmadi@why.net (ahmadi) To: @moa.net You say srb is censored for content, I, and Graham and Isaac say it is not. The only way to settle it is to give an example where you posted an article about, say, the marriages of Baha'u'llah, and the moderators said something like that subject is off limits. In the absence of such a discussion your points are moot. If you can get 100 people to vote yes for your proposal, then that is fine - I, for one, am not going to vote at all because as one disinterested party suggested, I do not want to artificially raise the 100 vote limit. -saman On second thought, sure, I'll post some examples. I not afraid of letting other people think and decide for themselves. I'll post them to news.groups today in a few minutes. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 02 14:39:46 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 02 Feb 1997 07:12:16 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id GAA12809; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 06:17:47 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 06:17:46 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Re: RFD: talk.religion.bahai Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <854885248.12588@dejanews.com> Reply-To: bumvan@infi.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net References: <853543959.13303@uunet.uu.net> <32E12A4B.10C2@wwnet.com> <5cu33o$n1r@nw101.infi.net> X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 02 12:09:51 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 () X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @MOA.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 706 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] In article <5cu33o$n1r@nw101.infi.net>, bumvan@infi.net (L. Shelton Bumgarner) wrote: > > >Another newsgroup will not add to the richness of usenet, only fragments > >it, and allows another avenue for the spammers that are destroying any > >sense of community that usenet did have. > I hope you'll reconsider. An UNMODERATED discussion group on the Bahai Faith would provide a forum much needed and not duplicate soc.religion.bahai, which is heavily censored, in my opinion. -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 02 14:39:49 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 02 Feb 1997 07:39:47 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id GAA13166; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 06:45:19 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 06:45:18 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Re: RFD: talk.religion.bahai Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <854885816.12754@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net References: <853543959.13303@uunet.uu.net> <5c159h$gsc$1@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <32f58154.58582097@news.pipeline.com> <5cvo0j$d61@cnn.Princeton.EDU> X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 02 12:18:20 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 () X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @MOA.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 1793 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] In article <5cvo0j$d61@cnn.Princeton.EDU>, cbstone@flagstaff.princeton.edu (Christopher B. Stone) wrote: > > In article <32f58154.58582097@news.pipeline.com>, > Jim Riley wrote: > >jkramer1@swarthmore.edu (Joshua Kramer) wrote: > > >>It would remove the apparent belief, in this individuals, and possibly others, > >>minds, that the bahai have total control over all discussion of bahai faith > >>accross the internet. > There is control, I believe not mistakenly, over the discussion on soc.religion.bahai.... I say this from experience of having my postings censored for extremely trivial reasons.... > Actually, the proponent is Bahai, and I do not want to speculate what > his motives are for proposing the group. > Free religious conscience and speech.... That's all. No other motives. > >Since the proponent has chosen not to grace this discussion with his > >presence after two weeks, how can we be sure what his reason for > >proposing the group is? > Sorry, it's true, some kind of glitch that's beyond me has kept me from posting and reading messages. I hope I've found a way through www.dejanews.com to get around it for now. > Ordinarily, I would agree, but let me repeat that for some reason he could > NOT post to news.groups. His ISP is working in the problem. > -- > Chris Stone * cbstone@princeton.edu * https://www.princeton.edu/~cbstone > "Isolationism must become a thing of the past." -Harry Truman Thanks Chris!!! Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sat Feb 08 07:18:17 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.54) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 08 Feb 1997 06:24:39 -0500 Message-ID: <32FC643B.7963@moa.net> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 06:32:11 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Censored messages on news.groups Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 230 Susan, May I ask you if you can read any postings by me starting with censored #2-19? Someone emailed me that they not there, but I'm reading them on my server.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sat Feb 08 06:32:11 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FC643B.7963@moa.net> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 06:32:11 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SManeck@berry.edu Subject: Censored messages on news.groups Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 232 Susan, May I ask you if you can read any postings by me starting with censored #2-19? Someone emailed me that they not there, but I'm reading them on my server.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 10:33:05 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDEE31.4DAE@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:33:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgoldberg@megsinet.net Subject: Censored messages to news.groups Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1ADC5F941084" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 31859 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1ADC5F941084 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there anyway you could post these censored messages to news.groups? I've tried several times to post them during the last week and keep having problems for some technical reason I can't figure out. I know it's asking a lot, but I'd appreciate it if you can find the time to do it. I'm sending them separately because I think there's a file size limit for newsgroups. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------1ADC5F941084 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="srb1-9.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="srb1-9.txt" >From - Thu Nov 07 16:39:58 1996 Message-ID: <3282572E.2005@moa.net> Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 16:39:58 -0500 From: <@moa.net> Organization: X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Friend, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I am returningthis to you for editting. I cannot allow the blanket > statements: I refuse to edit my post in any way whatsoever. Your role as a moderator is not to be a fascist and stunt the serious exchange of ideas. Incidentally, "editting" is spelt with one "t." > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > especially in this regard. > > and > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > and obedience. > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > general or backed up by fact. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-1.ouhub.moa.net > > From: <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 > > Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:08:44 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 87 > > Message-ID: <3282098C.31E@moa.net> > > References: <55sp6p$q76@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Personally, over the years I've been incredibly disillusioned with the Bahai > > > Community. I was brainwashed to believe it meant a lot of things it > > > doesn't. To, illustrate, I can still remember going to a youth deepening > > > when I was 17 and hearing this highly respected fiery lipped ex-radical > > > ominously railing to us guys about "locker room talk" --- basically in her > > > war like ways she was trying to instill a sense of shame for thinking > > > unchaste thoughts ---- which was good in a sense ---- but believe me, the way > > > she worded herself was absolute condescending nonsense. She cleverly made it > > > sound like it was a terrible crime to get horny. --- The point being, at the > > > time, being a na ve kid, I took her way too seriously. > > > > > > > Karl, people are evil and twist and debase every political and religious form to > > their own purposes. I've witnessed this same kind of thing in the Baha'i Faith > > many, many times. Who, if they have even a modicum of honesty and perspicacity, > > hasn't? > > > > > As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > "Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > > > > > Many people are all too willing to ASSUME these roles--through election or > > otherwise makes little difference. Tainted wine in new vessels. > > > > > > > > Moreover, it is precisely this sense of distrust for people in an > > > authoritative position such as priests, that in my opinion, strikes a nerve > > > in America's character. ---- If one needs good tactics for mass enrollments > > > in the U.S., my suggestion is that we start with those aspects of the Faith > > > that appeal to those who have good reasons to distrust authority. After all, > > > isn't this distrust a tradition in this country? > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > especially in this regard. > > > > > If one needs a reason to see why its so easy for people not to be Bahais, or > > > for that matter, why it's so easy to disobey the Laws of God, look no further > > > than members of the influential Bahai Community playing surrogate priests to > > > those foolish enough to play surrogate parish ----- Which has the inevitable > > > effect of denying what's a part of life: what's worth respecting, what's > > > worth being ashamed of, and what's worth forgiving. > > > > > > > You, sir, have an Antinomian mind; you should OBEY!!!! > > > > > These roles have this effect because sooner or later a parish will wonder if > > > the priest is worth putting on a pedestal. As such, it will eventually see > > > the natural flaws in his character and not take a damn thing he says > > > seriously. Whereas with independent investigation of truth, which > > > Baha'u'llah so brilliantly condones, there are no flaws to be disillusioned > > > with. > > > > > > > In Young Goodman Brown, Hawthorne perceived it long ago: "Evil is the Nature > > of Mankind." I also recall Ecclessiates: "The heart of the sons of men is > > full of evil." > > > > > If one needs a good subject for a fireside or a deepening, I strongly > > > recommend we deepen each other on whatever it takes to psychologically break > > > whatever it is that compels us to play such roles. > > > > In Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha says of evil, it "continues and endures." > > Not at all an upbeat modern concept full of psychological hope. > > > > >"I have sworn eternal hostility to all forms of Tyranny against the minds > > >of man." - Thomas Jefferson > > > > >Maybe that's why the U.S. is the cradle of the Faith. What other countries > > >are founded on such principles? > > > > You make me think of James Madison in the Federalist Papers: "I never expect > > to see a perfect thing from imperfect man." An exceedingly Western, Christian, > > American notion, though all the great religions have a sense of the limitations > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > and obedience. > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan, USA > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 17:25:32 -0500 From: <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611091538.IAA03876@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > Please reformat and delete personal reference to moderators and > blanket attacks against groups and I would be happy to post > your remarks, > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com Dear Richard: Let me make sure I understand this: Moderators, like Hitler and other fascists, are above all criticism. The Kitab-i-Oppression says so. I spelled out "SOME" though I believe the context, as well as reason, implies it. > > > Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 07:58:27 -0500 > > From: <@moa.net> > > Organization: > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community > > References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > > > > > I am returningthis to you for editting. [sic] I cannot allow the blanket > > > statements: > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > > > especially in this regard. > > > > > > and > > > > > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > > > and obedience. > > > > > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > > > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > > > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > > > general or backed up by fact. > > > > > > Thank you for participating, > > > > > > Dick Detweiler > > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611092303.QAA00271@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I am sorry if you have a problem with moderated newsgroups. "Problem" is a derogatory characterization of my position. What I disaprove of is CENSORED newsgroups. In my last posting, I apparently hurt your feelings. But if > you would like to take part in the discussion on this groups, you need > to make sure your submittals meet the charter of the group. I am > enclosing a copy of it for your reference. Please keep it in mind > while reviewing the post in question and my comments. Again, when > it is free of personal attacks [you?] and negative comments about a whole > group of people which could find them offensive, [I qualified the obvious, i.e., what ought to go without saying.] I would be happy > to post it. My reformatting request had to do with getting rid of > the '>'s that have build up over the course of our exchange. I'm resending it then. > > Let me also reiterate that negative comments about the Faith are fine > on the newsgroup as long as they meet the charter. If you would like > to make a point that Iranian culture tends towards orthodoxy and that > that may impact the way some individuals act, that's alright. [sic] Just > make sure the comments meet the charter. [And God has enlightened you to make the decision?] If you want to say Baha'is > are a bunch of uptight, repressed, narrow-minded, religiously-conned, > non-intellectual, misguided saps, just make sure you say it with a > smile on your face, OK? This, Richard, is a generalization, one apparently you find permissible. I, however, will grant you what you refuse to grant me: The statement of an opinion without endless, absurd qualifications, IMHOs, etc. > > And one more thing, fascists like me like honey a lot better than > vinegar. If you take my meaning... > You're abusing your power. All fascists do/did. Threats stultify the exchange of ideas as much as censorship. > Your jack-booted, brown-shirted moderator friend, You're trying to turn into a joke a very serious issue. > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > > CHARTER FOR THE SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI NEWSGROUP > ============================================== I don't disagree with any of this nor did my original post. From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611101525.IAA23650@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > The following comments - as personal attacks which have no place on > this newsgroup - need to be removed before this will be submitted to > the newsgroup: > These do not constitute personal attacks but exposures of your undue interference in the content on my postings. I can understand you would prefer no one else should know about the issue. In my opinion, you're violating my constitutional freedom as an American citizen and my privilege as a Baha'i to express my conscience candidly. In both of these passages, I am taking issue with the heavy-handed editorial practice that you seem to believe is justifiable. I trust the spark of truth enough to manifest itself to allow others to speak their minds. That, to me, is a Baha'i principle, sorely neglected in your handling of my post. I believe it is legitimate use of the newsgroup to discuss the moderators' procedures for manipulating discussion. > > especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the best recent > > evidence of this in my experience is the censoring of this posting > > the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or non-Reformation culture, Iran > > has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. IMHO, this cultural > > predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?] > > and > > > [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to point outthat > > Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, does not > > value the free exchange of ideas.] > > Strike these and incorporate your parenthetical comments into the main body > of your post and I would be happy to post this to the newsgroup. > Your request to strike these is so as not to draw attention to your flawed handling of my posting. You're now merely trying to protect yourself from the possible censure you have earned. I'm not out to get YOU. Don't get paranoid. It's policy that permits ANY moderator to do what you have that concerns me. I believe that policy, in context, is worthy of discussion, indeed, essential. Your request to include my parenthetical comments constitutes another request to obscure further the real issue. Your attempt to protect yourself at the cost of silencing me. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA >From - Thu Nov 14 06:37:42 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.44) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:21:48 -0500 Message-ID: <3289BEEC.27DF@moa.net> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:28:28 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Haukness CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Another excellent example, apparently, of the abuse of your laughable little powers as a "moderator." You're interfering too much in the CONTENT of the message. John Haukness wrote: > > Dear Rick: After reviewing my message I find my tone and objectivity, is > quite more temperate and reserved than many other posts. I find > soc.religion's moderating policy to lean towards the left ideology. > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Rick Boatright wrote: > > > Dear John, (and copied to Frederick) > > > > I have already asked Frederick to decrease the quote in the message > > he sent to the newsgroup and to which you are replying. Could we, > > perhaps let you two continue this in private email, or perhaps you > > both would like to prepare new summeries of your positions for the > > newsgroup? These messages with their extremely lenthy quoted > > context violate the signal-to-noise ratio that the newsgroup > > generally strives for. > > > > Rick Boatright > > co-moderator > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:18:02 -0600 (CST) > > From: John Haukness > > To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Cc: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought > > > > > > > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > John Haukness wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Friends: One can see me as anti-whatever they want. The writings of > > > > the Guardian make it clear to me that the american separation of Church > > > > and state is based on fear and will fade away. > > > > > > It's based on fear of the harsh realities of historical experience--often > > > bloody. The Guardian is more nuanced. > > > > And now we live in the Day that will not be followed by nite! Also, we > > as much historical episodes of bood baths as a result of secular > > behaviors so do you want also to separate the secular from the > > secular based on using the same logic? have> > As far as equating > > > > Religion and state as one, being common anti intellectual sentiment, I am > > > > familiar with a long list of Baha'i's arguing this, many who have > > > > published far more than I have- I wish people would start studying Shoghi > > > > Effendi with an open mind, and Abdul Baha's statements on education. > > > > > > > > Of course my friends William and John Hatcher have put this issue to > > > > rest, safe ground, as with their publishing record, it is hard to call > > > > them anti-intellectual. From Shoghi Effendi: "As the Baha'i > > > > Administrative Order rapidly expands throughout the world it behooves > > > > everyone associated with it to familiarize himself with its principles > > > > to understand its import and to put its precepts into practice. The > > > > divinely ordained institutions of the Local Spriityal Assembly operates > > > > at the first levels of human society and is the basic administrative unit > > > > of Bahaullah's World Order." So how are you going to separate religion > > > > from Bahaullah's World Order, an Order, Bahaullah has placed the state in? > > > > > > > > > > I made no such suggestion. > > > The suggestion of your post was that Western secularism's separation > > of church and state was good, I assummed you were applying that it still > > is necessary. > > > > > > > > > Well, John, you sure know how to ignore unpleasant facts and dispense with > > > 400 years of religious and social history triumphantly. > > > As I have said, there is no conclusive evidence that the separation of > > church and state have provided the security you are attributing, for > > the>past 400 years there are as many wars, forced famines and the like > > among church against church and state against state, Likewise being > > ignored are all the successful ventures of cooperation the past 400 > > years of religion and state; but regardless, that was then and now > > is now. What stikes me, is that with keen insight, (I would shure like > > to hear from the readers who already have noticed the following) one > > can begin to see the faint glimmers, that secular society and religious > > society are beginning to come upon, what the Hatcher's so elequantly > > wrote about, that religion is inseparable from science, they are married > > interwoven in the foundation. (I am not saying there are not appropriate > > manmade separations, in man's need for efficiency and specialization > > one needs to make artificial separations all the time, but if you look > > at Shoghi Effendi's writings on the Assemblies and Houses of Justice, > > and Abdul Baha's on schools, you can clearly see, that at the foundation > > level, religion and state are complimentary, and that the Local House of > > Justice, and Baha'i School are the foundation institutions of the New > > World Order state. > > All the best! > > > > > > > Your post seems to me to be ladened with the anti-intellectualism that > > > > > has become characteristic of the thinking of many Baha'is. Your > > > > > conclusions don't appear to me to be supported by the Baha'i Writings. > > > > > > > > > > Given modern religious history, since the 1600s really, Western > > > > > secularism has quite rightly that the separation of religion from > > > > > the state is in everyone's best interest. > > > > > > > > > > The Baha'i Faith has yet sufficiently to prove otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: Frederick Glaysher <@MOA.net> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:13:19 -0600 Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: srb-mods@bcca.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.31) X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Frederick, A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment this for private email. Rick Boatright co-moderator soc.religion.bahai > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > To: karl1971@aol.com > Cc: @MOA.net > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > [clip] > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > make love, not war. > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > or her life. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > daughter-in-law. > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > loathsome addiction. > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > -- Karl > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > veins.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:07:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171601.KAA08931@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the > newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, > but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the > newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation > that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment > this for private email. > > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > You "suspect" incorrectly. I certainly intended for my message to be posted. I'd appreciate if you'd act as a moderator and not a censor. I find you're interfering in my communication offensive. Post it. >From - Tue Nov 19 04:56:35 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.39) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:02:27 -0500 Message-ID: <32905FF7.25F8@moa.net> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:09:11 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171607.JAA22964@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Not suitable for the group. Tell hi mto take it to e-mail. > > Dick D. > Dick, I mean this in all seriousness. You're a fascist pig. I'd say that to your face, fellow.... > > From news@news2.acs.oakland.edu Sun Nov 17 07:43:51 1996 > > Received: from bcca.org (root@bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) by primenet.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id HAA12476 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 1 > > Received: from relay6.UU.NET by bcca.org with smtp > > (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vP8Rl-0008esC; Sun, 17 Nov 96 09:43 EST > > Received: from news2.acs.oakland.edu by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP > > (peer crosschecked as: news2.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.152]) > > id QQbqfq06145; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:44 -0500 (EST) > > Received: (from news@localhost) by news2.acs.oakland.edu (8.7.6/8.7.4) id JAA19072; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:51 -0500 > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-29.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 53 > > Message-ID: <328F24FC.253@moa.net> > > References: <"uiWV9.A.DUF.dSkjy"@bounty> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > [clip] > > > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > > make love, not war. > > > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > > or her life. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > > daughter-in-law. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > > loathsome addiction. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > > > -- Karl > > > > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > > veins.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA --------------1ADC5F941084-- From - Sun Feb 09 10:38:39 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.57) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:25:47 -0500 Message-ID: <32FDEE31.4DAE@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:33:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgoldberg@megsinet.net Subject: Censored messages to news.groups Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1ADC5F941084" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 31857 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1ADC5F941084 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there anyway you could post these censored messages to news.groups? I've tried several times to post them during the last week and keep having problems for some technical reason I can't figure out. I know it's asking a lot, but I'd appreciate it if you can find the time to do it. I'm sending them separately because I think there's a file size limit for newsgroups. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------1ADC5F941084 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="srb1-9.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="srb1-9.txt" >From - Thu Nov 07 16:39:58 1996 Message-ID: <3282572E.2005@moa.net> Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 16:39:58 -0500 From: <@moa.net> Organization: X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Friend, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I am returningthis to you for editting. I cannot allow the blanket > statements: I refuse to edit my post in any way whatsoever. Your role as a moderator is not to be a fascist and stunt the serious exchange of ideas. Incidentally, "editting" is spelt with one "t." > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > especially in this regard. > > and > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > and obedience. > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > general or backed up by fact. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-1.ouhub.moa.net > > From: <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 > > Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:08:44 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 87 > > Message-ID: <3282098C.31E@moa.net> > > References: <55sp6p$q76@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Personally, over the years I've been incredibly disillusioned with the Bahai > > > Community. I was brainwashed to believe it meant a lot of things it > > > doesn't. To, illustrate, I can still remember going to a youth deepening > > > when I was 17 and hearing this highly respected fiery lipped ex-radical > > > ominously railing to us guys about "locker room talk" --- basically in her > > > war like ways she was trying to instill a sense of shame for thinking > > > unchaste thoughts ---- which was good in a sense ---- but believe me, the way > > > she worded herself was absolute condescending nonsense. She cleverly made it > > > sound like it was a terrible crime to get horny. --- The point being, at the > > > time, being a na ve kid, I took her way too seriously. > > > > > > > Karl, people are evil and twist and debase every political and religious form to > > their own purposes. I've witnessed this same kind of thing in the Baha'i Faith > > many, many times. Who, if they have even a modicum of honesty and perspicacity, > > hasn't? > > > > > As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > "Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > > > > > Many people are all too willing to ASSUME these roles--through election or > > otherwise makes little difference. Tainted wine in new vessels. > > > > > > > > Moreover, it is precisely this sense of distrust for people in an > > > authoritative position such as priests, that in my opinion, strikes a nerve > > > in America's character. ---- If one needs good tactics for mass enrollments > > > in the U.S., my suggestion is that we start with those aspects of the Faith > > > that appeal to those who have good reasons to distrust authority. After all, > > > isn't this distrust a tradition in this country? > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > especially in this regard. > > > > > If one needs a reason to see why its so easy for people not to be Bahais, or > > > for that matter, why it's so easy to disobey the Laws of God, look no further > > > than members of the influential Bahai Community playing surrogate priests to > > > those foolish enough to play surrogate parish ----- Which has the inevitable > > > effect of denying what's a part of life: what's worth respecting, what's > > > worth being ashamed of, and what's worth forgiving. > > > > > > > You, sir, have an Antinomian mind; you should OBEY!!!! > > > > > These roles have this effect because sooner or later a parish will wonder if > > > the priest is worth putting on a pedestal. As such, it will eventually see > > > the natural flaws in his character and not take a damn thing he says > > > seriously. Whereas with independent investigation of truth, which > > > Baha'u'llah so brilliantly condones, there are no flaws to be disillusioned > > > with. > > > > > > > In Young Goodman Brown, Hawthorne perceived it long ago: "Evil is the Nature > > of Mankind." I also recall Ecclessiates: "The heart of the sons of men is > > full of evil." > > > > > If one needs a good subject for a fireside or a deepening, I strongly > > > recommend we deepen each other on whatever it takes to psychologically break > > > whatever it is that compels us to play such roles. > > > > In Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha says of evil, it "continues and endures." > > Not at all an upbeat modern concept full of psychological hope. > > > > >"I have sworn eternal hostility to all forms of Tyranny against the minds > > >of man." - Thomas Jefferson > > > > >Maybe that's why the U.S. is the cradle of the Faith. What other countries > > >are founded on such principles? > > > > You make me think of James Madison in the Federalist Papers: "I never expect > > to see a perfect thing from imperfect man." An exceedingly Western, Christian, > > American notion, though all the great religions have a sense of the limitations > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > and obedience. > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan, USA > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 17:25:32 -0500 From: <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611091538.IAA03876@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > Please reformat and delete personal reference to moderators and > blanket attacks against groups and I would be happy to post > your remarks, > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com Dear Richard: Let me make sure I understand this: Moderators, like Hitler and other fascists, are above all criticism. The Kitab-i-Oppression says so. I spelled out "SOME" though I believe the context, as well as reason, implies it. > > > Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 07:58:27 -0500 > > From: <@moa.net> > > Organization: > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community > > References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > > > > > I am returningthis to you for editting. [sic] I cannot allow the blanket > > > statements: > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > > > especially in this regard. > > > > > > and > > > > > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > > > and obedience. > > > > > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > > > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > > > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > > > general or backed up by fact. > > > > > > Thank you for participating, > > > > > > Dick Detweiler > > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611092303.QAA00271@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I am sorry if you have a problem with moderated newsgroups. "Problem" is a derogatory characterization of my position. What I disaprove of is CENSORED newsgroups. In my last posting, I apparently hurt your feelings. But if > you would like to take part in the discussion on this groups, you need > to make sure your submittals meet the charter of the group. I am > enclosing a copy of it for your reference. Please keep it in mind > while reviewing the post in question and my comments. Again, when > it is free of personal attacks [you?] and negative comments about a whole > group of people which could find them offensive, [I qualified the obvious, i.e., what ought to go without saying.] I would be happy > to post it. My reformatting request had to do with getting rid of > the '>'s that have build up over the course of our exchange. I'm resending it then. > > Let me also reiterate that negative comments about the Faith are fine > on the newsgroup as long as they meet the charter. If you would like > to make a point that Iranian culture tends towards orthodoxy and that > that may impact the way some individuals act, that's alright. [sic] Just > make sure the comments meet the charter. [And God has enlightened you to make the decision?] If you want to say Baha'is > are a bunch of uptight, repressed, narrow-minded, religiously-conned, > non-intellectual, misguided saps, just make sure you say it with a > smile on your face, OK? This, Richard, is a generalization, one apparently you find permissible. I, however, will grant you what you refuse to grant me: The statement of an opinion without endless, absurd qualifications, IMHOs, etc. > > And one more thing, fascists like me like honey a lot better than > vinegar. If you take my meaning... > You're abusing your power. All fascists do/did. Threats stultify the exchange of ideas as much as censorship. > Your jack-booted, brown-shirted moderator friend, You're trying to turn into a joke a very serious issue. > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > > CHARTER FOR THE SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI NEWSGROUP > ============================================== I don't disagree with any of this nor did my original post. From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611101525.IAA23650@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > The following comments - as personal attacks which have no place on > this newsgroup - need to be removed before this will be submitted to > the newsgroup: > These do not constitute personal attacks but exposures of your undue interference in the content on my postings. I can understand you would prefer no one else should know about the issue. In my opinion, you're violating my constitutional freedom as an American citizen and my privilege as a Baha'i to express my conscience candidly. In both of these passages, I am taking issue with the heavy-handed editorial practice that you seem to believe is justifiable. I trust the spark of truth enough to manifest itself to allow others to speak their minds. That, to me, is a Baha'i principle, sorely neglected in your handling of my post. I believe it is legitimate use of the newsgroup to discuss the moderators' procedures for manipulating discussion. > > especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the best recent > > evidence of this in my experience is the censoring of this posting > > the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or non-Reformation culture, Iran > > has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. IMHO, this cultural > > predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?] > > and > > > [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to point outthat > > Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, does not > > value the free exchange of ideas.] > > Strike these and incorporate your parenthetical comments into the main body > of your post and I would be happy to post this to the newsgroup. > Your request to strike these is so as not to draw attention to your flawed handling of my posting. You're now merely trying to protect yourself from the possible censure you have earned. I'm not out to get YOU. Don't get paranoid. It's policy that permits ANY moderator to do what you have that concerns me. I believe that policy, in context, is worthy of discussion, indeed, essential. Your request to include my parenthetical comments constitutes another request to obscure further the real issue. Your attempt to protect yourself at the cost of silencing me. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA >From - Thu Nov 14 06:37:42 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.44) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:21:48 -0500 Message-ID: <3289BEEC.27DF@moa.net> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:28:28 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Haukness CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Another excellent example, apparently, of the abuse of your laughable little powers as a "moderator." You're interfering too much in the CONTENT of the message. John Haukness wrote: > > Dear Rick: After reviewing my message I find my tone and objectivity, is > quite more temperate and reserved than many other posts. I find > soc.religion's moderating policy to lean towards the left ideology. > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Rick Boatright wrote: > > > Dear John, (and copied to Frederick) > > > > I have already asked Frederick to decrease the quote in the message > > he sent to the newsgroup and to which you are replying. Could we, > > perhaps let you two continue this in private email, or perhaps you > > both would like to prepare new summeries of your positions for the > > newsgroup? These messages with their extremely lenthy quoted > > context violate the signal-to-noise ratio that the newsgroup > > generally strives for. > > > > Rick Boatright > > co-moderator > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:18:02 -0600 (CST) > > From: John Haukness > > To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Cc: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought > > > > > > > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > John Haukness wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Friends: One can see me as anti-whatever they want. The writings of > > > > the Guardian make it clear to me that the american separation of Church > > > > and state is based on fear and will fade away. > > > > > > It's based on fear of the harsh realities of historical experience--often > > > bloody. The Guardian is more nuanced. > > > > And now we live in the Day that will not be followed by nite! Also, we > > as much historical episodes of bood baths as a result of secular > > behaviors so do you want also to separate the secular from the > > secular based on using the same logic? have> > As far as equating > > > > Religion and state as one, being common anti intellectual sentiment, I am > > > > familiar with a long list of Baha'i's arguing this, many who have > > > > published far more than I have- I wish people would start studying Shoghi > > > > Effendi with an open mind, and Abdul Baha's statements on education. > > > > > > > > Of course my friends William and John Hatcher have put this issue to > > > > rest, safe ground, as with their publishing record, it is hard to call > > > > them anti-intellectual. From Shoghi Effendi: "As the Baha'i > > > > Administrative Order rapidly expands throughout the world it behooves > > > > everyone associated with it to familiarize himself with its principles > > > > to understand its import and to put its precepts into practice. The > > > > divinely ordained institutions of the Local Spriityal Assembly operates > > > > at the first levels of human society and is the basic administrative unit > > > > of Bahaullah's World Order." So how are you going to separate religion > > > > from Bahaullah's World Order, an Order, Bahaullah has placed the state in? > > > > > > > > > > I made no such suggestion. > > > The suggestion of your post was that Western secularism's separation > > of church and state was good, I assummed you were applying that it still > > is necessary. > > > > > > > > > Well, John, you sure know how to ignore unpleasant facts and dispense with > > > 400 years of religious and social history triumphantly. > > > As I have said, there is no conclusive evidence that the separation of > > church and state have provided the security you are attributing, for > > the>past 400 years there are as many wars, forced famines and the like > > among church against church and state against state, Likewise being > > ignored are all the successful ventures of cooperation the past 400 > > years of religion and state; but regardless, that was then and now > > is now. What stikes me, is that with keen insight, (I would shure like > > to hear from the readers who already have noticed the following) one > > can begin to see the faint glimmers, that secular society and religious > > society are beginning to come upon, what the Hatcher's so elequantly > > wrote about, that religion is inseparable from science, they are married > > interwoven in the foundation. (I am not saying there are not appropriate > > manmade separations, in man's need for efficiency and specialization > > one needs to make artificial separations all the time, but if you look > > at Shoghi Effendi's writings on the Assemblies and Houses of Justice, > > and Abdul Baha's on schools, you can clearly see, that at the foundation > > level, religion and state are complimentary, and that the Local House of > > Justice, and Baha'i School are the foundation institutions of the New > > World Order state. > > All the best! > > > > > > > Your post seems to me to be ladened with the anti-intellectualism that > > > > > has become characteristic of the thinking of many Baha'is. Your > > > > > conclusions don't appear to me to be supported by the Baha'i Writings. > > > > > > > > > > Given modern religious history, since the 1600s really, Western > > > > > secularism has quite rightly that the separation of religion from > > > > > the state is in everyone's best interest. > > > > > > > > > > The Baha'i Faith has yet sufficiently to prove otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: Frederick Glaysher <@MOA.net> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:13:19 -0600 Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: srb-mods@bcca.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.31) X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Frederick, A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment this for private email. Rick Boatright co-moderator soc.religion.bahai > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > To: karl1971@aol.com > Cc: @MOA.net > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > [clip] > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > make love, not war. > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > or her life. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > daughter-in-law. > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > loathsome addiction. > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > -- Karl > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > veins.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:07:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171601.KAA08931@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the > newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, > but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the > newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation > that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment > this for private email. > > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > You "suspect" incorrectly. I certainly intended for my message to be posted. I'd appreciate if you'd act as a moderator and not a censor. I find you're interfering in my communication offensive. Post it. >From - Tue Nov 19 04:56:35 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.39) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:02:27 -0500 Message-ID: <32905FF7.25F8@moa.net> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:09:11 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171607.JAA22964@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Not suitable for the group. Tell hi mto take it to e-mail. > > Dick D. > Dick, I mean this in all seriousness. You're a fascist pig. I'd say that to your face, fellow.... > > From news@news2.acs.oakland.edu Sun Nov 17 07:43:51 1996 > > Received: from bcca.org (root@bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) by primenet.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id HAA12476 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 1 > > Received: from relay6.UU.NET by bcca.org with smtp > > (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vP8Rl-0008esC; Sun, 17 Nov 96 09:43 EST > > Received: from news2.acs.oakland.edu by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP > > (peer crosschecked as: news2.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.152]) > > id QQbqfq06145; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:44 -0500 (EST) > > Received: (from news@localhost) by news2.acs.oakland.edu (8.7.6/8.7.4) id JAA19072; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:51 -0500 > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-29.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 53 > > Message-ID: <328F24FC.253@moa.net> > > References: <"uiWV9.A.DUF.dSkjy"@bounty> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > [clip] > > > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > > make love, not war. > > > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > > or her life. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > > daughter-in-law. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > > loathsome addiction. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > > > -- Karl > > > > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > > veins.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA --------------1ADC5F941084-- From - Sun Feb 09 10:45:28 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.57) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:35:21 -0500 Message-ID: <32FDF06E.2AA9@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:42:38 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: momen@northill.demon.co.uk Subject: censored messages to s.r.b. Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E0F53172535" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 31753 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E0F53172535 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've posted them a third time today, and two more times today to make five.... I'm sending this straight to you so that if they for some technical reason beyond me don't appear on news.groups soon you might post them there for me. I'd appreciate it. Thanks. Installment 1. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------E0F53172535 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="srb1-9.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="srb1-9.txt" >From - Thu Nov 07 16:39:58 1996 Message-ID: <3282572E.2005@moa.net> Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 16:39:58 -0500 From: <@moa.net> Organization: X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Friend, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I am returningthis to you for editting. I cannot allow the blanket > statements: I refuse to edit my post in any way whatsoever. Your role as a moderator is not to be a fascist and stunt the serious exchange of ideas. Incidentally, "editting" is spelt with one "t." > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > especially in this regard. > > and > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > and obedience. > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > general or backed up by fact. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-1.ouhub.moa.net > > From: <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 > > Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:08:44 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 87 > > Message-ID: <3282098C.31E@moa.net> > > References: <55sp6p$q76@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Personally, over the years I've been incredibly disillusioned with the Bahai > > > Community. I was brainwashed to believe it meant a lot of things it > > > doesn't. To, illustrate, I can still remember going to a youth deepening > > > when I was 17 and hearing this highly respected fiery lipped ex-radical > > > ominously railing to us guys about "locker room talk" --- basically in her > > > war like ways she was trying to instill a sense of shame for thinking > > > unchaste thoughts ---- which was good in a sense ---- but believe me, the way > > > she worded herself was absolute condescending nonsense. She cleverly made it > > > sound like it was a terrible crime to get horny. --- The point being, at the > > > time, being a na ve kid, I took her way too seriously. > > > > > > > Karl, people are evil and twist and debase every political and religious form to > > their own purposes. I've witnessed this same kind of thing in the Baha'i Faith > > many, many times. Who, if they have even a modicum of honesty and perspicacity, > > hasn't? > > > > > As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > "Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > > > > > Many people are all too willing to ASSUME these roles--through election or > > otherwise makes little difference. Tainted wine in new vessels. > > > > > > > > Moreover, it is precisely this sense of distrust for people in an > > > authoritative position such as priests, that in my opinion, strikes a nerve > > > in America's character. ---- If one needs good tactics for mass enrollments > > > in the U.S., my suggestion is that we start with those aspects of the Faith > > > that appeal to those who have good reasons to distrust authority. After all, > > > isn't this distrust a tradition in this country? > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > especially in this regard. > > > > > If one needs a reason to see why its so easy for people not to be Bahais, or > > > for that matter, why it's so easy to disobey the Laws of God, look no further > > > than members of the influential Bahai Community playing surrogate priests to > > > those foolish enough to play surrogate parish ----- Which has the inevitable > > > effect of denying what's a part of life: what's worth respecting, what's > > > worth being ashamed of, and what's worth forgiving. > > > > > > > You, sir, have an Antinomian mind; you should OBEY!!!! > > > > > These roles have this effect because sooner or later a parish will wonder if > > > the priest is worth putting on a pedestal. As such, it will eventually see > > > the natural flaws in his character and not take a damn thing he says > > > seriously. Whereas with independent investigation of truth, which > > > Baha'u'llah so brilliantly condones, there are no flaws to be disillusioned > > > with. > > > > > > > In Young Goodman Brown, Hawthorne perceived it long ago: "Evil is the Nature > > of Mankind." I also recall Ecclessiates: "The heart of the sons of men is > > full of evil." > > > > > If one needs a good subject for a fireside or a deepening, I strongly > > > recommend we deepen each other on whatever it takes to psychologically break > > > whatever it is that compels us to play such roles. > > > > In Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha says of evil, it "continues and endures." > > Not at all an upbeat modern concept full of psychological hope. > > > > >"I have sworn eternal hostility to all forms of Tyranny against the minds > > >of man." - Thomas Jefferson > > > > >Maybe that's why the U.S. is the cradle of the Faith. What other countries > > >are founded on such principles? > > > > You make me think of James Madison in the Federalist Papers: "I never expect > > to see a perfect thing from imperfect man." An exceedingly Western, Christian, > > American notion, though all the great religions have a sense of the limitations > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > and obedience. > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan, USA > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 17:25:32 -0500 From: <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611091538.IAA03876@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > Please reformat and delete personal reference to moderators and > blanket attacks against groups and I would be happy to post > your remarks, > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com Dear Richard: Let me make sure I understand this: Moderators, like Hitler and other fascists, are above all criticism. The Kitab-i-Oppression says so. I spelled out "SOME" though I believe the context, as well as reason, implies it. > > > Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 07:58:27 -0500 > > From: <@moa.net> > > Organization: > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community > > References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > > > > > I am returningthis to you for editting. [sic] I cannot allow the blanket > > > statements: > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > > > especially in this regard. > > > > > > and > > > > > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > > > and obedience. > > > > > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > > > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > > > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > > > general or backed up by fact. > > > > > > Thank you for participating, > > > > > > Dick Detweiler > > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611092303.QAA00271@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I am sorry if you have a problem with moderated newsgroups. "Problem" is a derogatory characterization of my position. What I disaprove of is CENSORED newsgroups. In my last posting, I apparently hurt your feelings. But if > you would like to take part in the discussion on this groups, you need > to make sure your submittals meet the charter of the group. I am > enclosing a copy of it for your reference. Please keep it in mind > while reviewing the post in question and my comments. Again, when > it is free of personal attacks [you?] and negative comments about a whole > group of people which could find them offensive, [I qualified the obvious, i.e., what ought to go without saying.] I would be happy > to post it. My reformatting request had to do with getting rid of > the '>'s that have build up over the course of our exchange. I'm resending it then. > > Let me also reiterate that negative comments about the Faith are fine > on the newsgroup as long as they meet the charter. If you would like > to make a point that Iranian culture tends towards orthodoxy and that > that may impact the way some individuals act, that's alright. [sic] Just > make sure the comments meet the charter. [And God has enlightened you to make the decision?] If you want to say Baha'is > are a bunch of uptight, repressed, narrow-minded, religiously-conned, > non-intellectual, misguided saps, just make sure you say it with a > smile on your face, OK? This, Richard, is a generalization, one apparently you find permissible. I, however, will grant you what you refuse to grant me: The statement of an opinion without endless, absurd qualifications, IMHOs, etc. > > And one more thing, fascists like me like honey a lot better than > vinegar. If you take my meaning... > You're abusing your power. All fascists do/did. Threats stultify the exchange of ideas as much as censorship. > Your jack-booted, brown-shirted moderator friend, You're trying to turn into a joke a very serious issue. > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > > CHARTER FOR THE SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI NEWSGROUP > ============================================== I don't disagree with any of this nor did my original post. From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611101525.IAA23650@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > The following comments - as personal attacks which have no place on > this newsgroup - need to be removed before this will be submitted to > the newsgroup: > These do not constitute personal attacks but exposures of your undue interference in the content on my postings. I can understand you would prefer no one else should know about the issue. In my opinion, you're violating my constitutional freedom as an American citizen and my privilege as a Baha'i to express my conscience candidly. In both of these passages, I am taking issue with the heavy-handed editorial practice that you seem to believe is justifiable. I trust the spark of truth enough to manifest itself to allow others to speak their minds. That, to me, is a Baha'i principle, sorely neglected in your handling of my post. I believe it is legitimate use of the newsgroup to discuss the moderators' procedures for manipulating discussion. > > especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the best recent > > evidence of this in my experience is the censoring of this posting > > the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or non-Reformation culture, Iran > > has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. IMHO, this cultural > > predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?] > > and > > > [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to point outthat > > Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, does not > > value the free exchange of ideas.] > > Strike these and incorporate your parenthetical comments into the main body > of your post and I would be happy to post this to the newsgroup. > Your request to strike these is so as not to draw attention to your flawed handling of my posting. You're now merely trying to protect yourself from the possible censure you have earned. I'm not out to get YOU. Don't get paranoid. It's policy that permits ANY moderator to do what you have that concerns me. I believe that policy, in context, is worthy of discussion, indeed, essential. Your request to include my parenthetical comments constitutes another request to obscure further the real issue. Your attempt to protect yourself at the cost of silencing me. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA >From - Thu Nov 14 06:37:42 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.44) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:21:48 -0500 Message-ID: <3289BEEC.27DF@moa.net> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:28:28 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Haukness CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Another excellent example, apparently, of the abuse of your laughable little powers as a "moderator." You're interfering too much in the CONTENT of the message. John Haukness wrote: > > Dear Rick: After reviewing my message I find my tone and objectivity, is > quite more temperate and reserved than many other posts. I find > soc.religion's moderating policy to lean towards the left ideology. > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Rick Boatright wrote: > > > Dear John, (and copied to Frederick) > > > > I have already asked Frederick to decrease the quote in the message > > he sent to the newsgroup and to which you are replying. Could we, > > perhaps let you two continue this in private email, or perhaps you > > both would like to prepare new summeries of your positions for the > > newsgroup? These messages with their extremely lenthy quoted > > context violate the signal-to-noise ratio that the newsgroup > > generally strives for. > > > > Rick Boatright > > co-moderator > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:18:02 -0600 (CST) > > From: John Haukness > > To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Cc: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought > > > > > > > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > John Haukness wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Friends: One can see me as anti-whatever they want. The writings of > > > > the Guardian make it clear to me that the american separation of Church > > > > and state is based on fear and will fade away. > > > > > > It's based on fear of the harsh realities of historical experience--often > > > bloody. The Guardian is more nuanced. > > > > And now we live in the Day that will not be followed by nite! Also, we > > as much historical episodes of bood baths as a result of secular > > behaviors so do you want also to separate the secular from the > > secular based on using the same logic? have> > As far as equating > > > > Religion and state as one, being common anti intellectual sentiment, I am > > > > familiar with a long list of Baha'i's arguing this, many who have > > > > published far more than I have- I wish people would start studying Shoghi > > > > Effendi with an open mind, and Abdul Baha's statements on education. > > > > > > > > Of course my friends William and John Hatcher have put this issue to > > > > rest, safe ground, as with their publishing record, it is hard to call > > > > them anti-intellectual. From Shoghi Effendi: "As the Baha'i > > > > Administrative Order rapidly expands throughout the world it behooves > > > > everyone associated with it to familiarize himself with its principles > > > > to understand its import and to put its precepts into practice. The > > > > divinely ordained institutions of the Local Spriityal Assembly operates > > > > at the first levels of human society and is the basic administrative unit > > > > of Bahaullah's World Order." So how are you going to separate religion > > > > from Bahaullah's World Order, an Order, Bahaullah has placed the state in? > > > > > > > > > > I made no such suggestion. > > > The suggestion of your post was that Western secularism's separation > > of church and state was good, I assummed you were applying that it still > > is necessary. > > > > > > > > > Well, John, you sure know how to ignore unpleasant facts and dispense with > > > 400 years of religious and social history triumphantly. > > > As I have said, there is no conclusive evidence that the separation of > > church and state have provided the security you are attributing, for > > the>past 400 years there are as many wars, forced famines and the like > > among church against church and state against state, Likewise being > > ignored are all the successful ventures of cooperation the past 400 > > years of religion and state; but regardless, that was then and now > > is now. What stikes me, is that with keen insight, (I would shure like > > to hear from the readers who already have noticed the following) one > > can begin to see the faint glimmers, that secular society and religious > > society are beginning to come upon, what the Hatcher's so elequantly > > wrote about, that religion is inseparable from science, they are married > > interwoven in the foundation. (I am not saying there are not appropriate > > manmade separations, in man's need for efficiency and specialization > > one needs to make artificial separations all the time, but if you look > > at Shoghi Effendi's writings on the Assemblies and Houses of Justice, > > and Abdul Baha's on schools, you can clearly see, that at the foundation > > level, religion and state are complimentary, and that the Local House of > > Justice, and Baha'i School are the foundation institutions of the New > > World Order state. > > All the best! > > > > > > > Your post seems to me to be ladened with the anti-intellectualism that > > > > > has become characteristic of the thinking of many Baha'is. Your > > > > > conclusions don't appear to me to be supported by the Baha'i Writings. > > > > > > > > > > Given modern religious history, since the 1600s really, Western > > > > > secularism has quite rightly that the separation of religion from > > > > > the state is in everyone's best interest. > > > > > > > > > > The Baha'i Faith has yet sufficiently to prove otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: Frederick Glaysher <@MOA.net> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:13:19 -0600 Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: srb-mods@bcca.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.31) X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Frederick, A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment this for private email. Rick Boatright co-moderator soc.religion.bahai > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > To: karl1971@aol.com > Cc: @MOA.net > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > [clip] > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > make love, not war. > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > or her life. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > daughter-in-law. > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > loathsome addiction. > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > -- Karl > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > veins.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:07:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171601.KAA08931@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the > newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, > but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the > newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation > that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment > this for private email. > > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > You "suspect" incorrectly. I certainly intended for my message to be posted. I'd appreciate if you'd act as a moderator and not a censor. I find you're interfering in my communication offensive. Post it. >From - Tue Nov 19 04:56:35 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.39) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:02:27 -0500 Message-ID: <32905FF7.25F8@moa.net> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:09:11 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171607.JAA22964@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Not suitable for the group. Tell hi mto take it to e-mail. > > Dick D. > Dick, I mean this in all seriousness. You're a fascist pig. I'd say that to your face, fellow.... > > From news@news2.acs.oakland.edu Sun Nov 17 07:43:51 1996 > > Received: from bcca.org (root@bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) by primenet.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id HAA12476 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 1 > > Received: from relay6.UU.NET by bcca.org with smtp > > (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vP8Rl-0008esC; Sun, 17 Nov 96 09:43 EST > > Received: from news2.acs.oakland.edu by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP > > (peer crosschecked as: news2.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.152]) > > id QQbqfq06145; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:44 -0500 (EST) > > Received: (from news@localhost) by news2.acs.oakland.edu (8.7.6/8.7.4) id JAA19072; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:51 -0500 > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-29.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 53 > > Message-ID: <328F24FC.253@moa.net> > > References: <"uiWV9.A.DUF.dSkjy"@bounty> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > [clip] > > > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > > make love, not war. > > > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > > or her life. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > > daughter-in-law. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > > loathsome addiction. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > > > -- Karl > > > > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > > veins.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA --------------E0F53172535-- From - Sun Feb 09 10:42:38 1997 BCC: @MOA.net Message-ID: <32FDF06E.2AA9@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:42:38 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: momen@northill.demon.co.uk Subject: censored messages to s.r.b. Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E0F53172535" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 31755 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E0F53172535 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've posted them a third time today, and two more times today to make five.... I'm sending this straight to you so that if they for some technical reason beyond me don't appear on news.groups soon you might post them there for me. I'd appreciate it. Thanks. Installment 1. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------E0F53172535 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="srb1-9.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="srb1-9.txt" >From - Thu Nov 07 16:39:58 1996 Message-ID: <3282572E.2005@moa.net> Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 16:39:58 -0500 From: <@moa.net> Organization: X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Friend, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I am returningthis to you for editting. I cannot allow the blanket > statements: I refuse to edit my post in any way whatsoever. Your role as a moderator is not to be a fascist and stunt the serious exchange of ideas. Incidentally, "editting" is spelt with one "t." > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > especially in this regard. > > and > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > and obedience. > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > general or backed up by fact. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-1.ouhub.moa.net > > From: <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 > > Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:08:44 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 87 > > Message-ID: <3282098C.31E@moa.net> > > References: <55sp6p$q76@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Personally, over the years I've been incredibly disillusioned with the Bahai > > > Community. I was brainwashed to believe it meant a lot of things it > > > doesn't. To, illustrate, I can still remember going to a youth deepening > > > when I was 17 and hearing this highly respected fiery lipped ex-radical > > > ominously railing to us guys about "locker room talk" --- basically in her > > > war like ways she was trying to instill a sense of shame for thinking > > > unchaste thoughts ---- which was good in a sense ---- but believe me, the way > > > she worded herself was absolute condescending nonsense. She cleverly made it > > > sound like it was a terrible crime to get horny. --- The point being, at the > > > time, being a na ve kid, I took her way too seriously. > > > > > > > Karl, people are evil and twist and debase every political and religious form to > > their own purposes. I've witnessed this same kind of thing in the Baha'i Faith > > many, many times. Who, if they have even a modicum of honesty and perspicacity, > > hasn't? > > > > > As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > "Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > > > > > Many people are all too willing to ASSUME these roles--through election or > > otherwise makes little difference. Tainted wine in new vessels. > > > > > > > > Moreover, it is precisely this sense of distrust for people in an > > > authoritative position such as priests, that in my opinion, strikes a nerve > > > in America's character. ---- If one needs good tactics for mass enrollments > > > in the U.S., my suggestion is that we start with those aspects of the Faith > > > that appeal to those who have good reasons to distrust authority. After all, > > > isn't this distrust a tradition in this country? > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > especially in this regard. > > > > > If one needs a reason to see why its so easy for people not to be Bahais, or > > > for that matter, why it's so easy to disobey the Laws of God, look no further > > > than members of the influential Bahai Community playing surrogate priests to > > > those foolish enough to play surrogate parish ----- Which has the inevitable > > > effect of denying what's a part of life: what's worth respecting, what's > > > worth being ashamed of, and what's worth forgiving. > > > > > > > You, sir, have an Antinomian mind; you should OBEY!!!! > > > > > These roles have this effect because sooner or later a parish will wonder if > > > the priest is worth putting on a pedestal. As such, it will eventually see > > > the natural flaws in his character and not take a damn thing he says > > > seriously. Whereas with independent investigation of truth, which > > > Baha'u'llah so brilliantly condones, there are no flaws to be disillusioned > > > with. > > > > > > > In Young Goodman Brown, Hawthorne perceived it long ago: "Evil is the Nature > > of Mankind." I also recall Ecclessiates: "The heart of the sons of men is > > full of evil." > > > > > If one needs a good subject for a fireside or a deepening, I strongly > > > recommend we deepen each other on whatever it takes to psychologically break > > > whatever it is that compels us to play such roles. > > > > In Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha says of evil, it "continues and endures." > > Not at all an upbeat modern concept full of psychological hope. > > > > >"I have sworn eternal hostility to all forms of Tyranny against the minds > > >of man." - Thomas Jefferson > > > > >Maybe that's why the U.S. is the cradle of the Faith. What other countries > > >are founded on such principles? > > > > You make me think of James Madison in the Federalist Papers: "I never expect > > to see a perfect thing from imperfect man." An exceedingly Western, Christian, > > American notion, though all the great religions have a sense of the limitations > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > and obedience. > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan, USA > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 17:25:32 -0500 From: <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611091538.IAA03876@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > Please reformat and delete personal reference to moderators and > blanket attacks against groups and I would be happy to post > your remarks, > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com Dear Richard: Let me make sure I understand this: Moderators, like Hitler and other fascists, are above all criticism. The Kitab-i-Oppression says so. I spelled out "SOME" though I believe the context, as well as reason, implies it. > > > Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 07:58:27 -0500 > > From: <@moa.net> > > Organization: > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community > > References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > > > > > I am returningthis to you for editting. [sic] I cannot allow the blanket > > > statements: > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > > > especially in this regard. > > > > > > and > > > > > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > > > and obedience. > > > > > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > > > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > > > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > > > general or backed up by fact. > > > > > > Thank you for participating, > > > > > > Dick Detweiler > > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611092303.QAA00271@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I am sorry if you have a problem with moderated newsgroups. "Problem" is a derogatory characterization of my position. What I disaprove of is CENSORED newsgroups. In my last posting, I apparently hurt your feelings. But if > you would like to take part in the discussion on this groups, you need > to make sure your submittals meet the charter of the group. I am > enclosing a copy of it for your reference. Please keep it in mind > while reviewing the post in question and my comments. Again, when > it is free of personal attacks [you?] and negative comments about a whole > group of people which could find them offensive, [I qualified the obvious, i.e., what ought to go without saying.] I would be happy > to post it. My reformatting request had to do with getting rid of > the '>'s that have build up over the course of our exchange. I'm resending it then. > > Let me also reiterate that negative comments about the Faith are fine > on the newsgroup as long as they meet the charter. If you would like > to make a point that Iranian culture tends towards orthodoxy and that > that may impact the way some individuals act, that's alright. [sic] Just > make sure the comments meet the charter. [And God has enlightened you to make the decision?] If you want to say Baha'is > are a bunch of uptight, repressed, narrow-minded, religiously-conned, > non-intellectual, misguided saps, just make sure you say it with a > smile on your face, OK? This, Richard, is a generalization, one apparently you find permissible. I, however, will grant you what you refuse to grant me: The statement of an opinion without endless, absurd qualifications, IMHOs, etc. > > And one more thing, fascists like me like honey a lot better than > vinegar. If you take my meaning... > You're abusing your power. All fascists do/did. Threats stultify the exchange of ideas as much as censorship. > Your jack-booted, brown-shirted moderator friend, You're trying to turn into a joke a very serious issue. > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > > CHARTER FOR THE SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI NEWSGROUP > ============================================== I don't disagree with any of this nor did my original post. From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611101525.IAA23650@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > The following comments - as personal attacks which have no place on > this newsgroup - need to be removed before this will be submitted to > the newsgroup: > These do not constitute personal attacks but exposures of your undue interference in the content on my postings. I can understand you would prefer no one else should know about the issue. In my opinion, you're violating my constitutional freedom as an American citizen and my privilege as a Baha'i to express my conscience candidly. In both of these passages, I am taking issue with the heavy-handed editorial practice that you seem to believe is justifiable. I trust the spark of truth enough to manifest itself to allow others to speak their minds. That, to me, is a Baha'i principle, sorely neglected in your handling of my post. I believe it is legitimate use of the newsgroup to discuss the moderators' procedures for manipulating discussion. > > especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the best recent > > evidence of this in my experience is the censoring of this posting > > the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or non-Reformation culture, Iran > > has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. IMHO, this cultural > > predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?] > > and > > > [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to point outthat > > Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, does not > > value the free exchange of ideas.] > > Strike these and incorporate your parenthetical comments into the main body > of your post and I would be happy to post this to the newsgroup. > Your request to strike these is so as not to draw attention to your flawed handling of my posting. You're now merely trying to protect yourself from the possible censure you have earned. I'm not out to get YOU. Don't get paranoid. It's policy that permits ANY moderator to do what you have that concerns me. I believe that policy, in context, is worthy of discussion, indeed, essential. Your request to include my parenthetical comments constitutes another request to obscure further the real issue. Your attempt to protect yourself at the cost of silencing me. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA >From - Thu Nov 14 06:37:42 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.44) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:21:48 -0500 Message-ID: <3289BEEC.27DF@moa.net> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:28:28 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Haukness CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Another excellent example, apparently, of the abuse of your laughable little powers as a "moderator." You're interfering too much in the CONTENT of the message. John Haukness wrote: > > Dear Rick: After reviewing my message I find my tone and objectivity, is > quite more temperate and reserved than many other posts. I find > soc.religion's moderating policy to lean towards the left ideology. > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Rick Boatright wrote: > > > Dear John, (and copied to Frederick) > > > > I have already asked Frederick to decrease the quote in the message > > he sent to the newsgroup and to which you are replying. Could we, > > perhaps let you two continue this in private email, or perhaps you > > both would like to prepare new summeries of your positions for the > > newsgroup? These messages with their extremely lenthy quoted > > context violate the signal-to-noise ratio that the newsgroup > > generally strives for. > > > > Rick Boatright > > co-moderator > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:18:02 -0600 (CST) > > From: John Haukness > > To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Cc: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought > > > > > > > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > John Haukness wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Friends: One can see me as anti-whatever they want. The writings of > > > > the Guardian make it clear to me that the american separation of Church > > > > and state is based on fear and will fade away. > > > > > > It's based on fear of the harsh realities of historical experience--often > > > bloody. The Guardian is more nuanced. > > > > And now we live in the Day that will not be followed by nite! Also, we > > as much historical episodes of bood baths as a result of secular > > behaviors so do you want also to separate the secular from the > > secular based on using the same logic? have> > As far as equating > > > > Religion and state as one, being common anti intellectual sentiment, I am > > > > familiar with a long list of Baha'i's arguing this, many who have > > > > published far more than I have- I wish people would start studying Shoghi > > > > Effendi with an open mind, and Abdul Baha's statements on education. > > > > > > > > Of course my friends William and John Hatcher have put this issue to > > > > rest, safe ground, as with their publishing record, it is hard to call > > > > them anti-intellectual. From Shoghi Effendi: "As the Baha'i > > > > Administrative Order rapidly expands throughout the world it behooves > > > > everyone associated with it to familiarize himself with its principles > > > > to understand its import and to put its precepts into practice. The > > > > divinely ordained institutions of the Local Spriityal Assembly operates > > > > at the first levels of human society and is the basic administrative unit > > > > of Bahaullah's World Order." So how are you going to separate religion > > > > from Bahaullah's World Order, an Order, Bahaullah has placed the state in? > > > > > > > > > > I made no such suggestion. > > > The suggestion of your post was that Western secularism's separation > > of church and state was good, I assummed you were applying that it still > > is necessary. > > > > > > > > > Well, John, you sure know how to ignore unpleasant facts and dispense with > > > 400 years of religious and social history triumphantly. > > > As I have said, there is no conclusive evidence that the separation of > > church and state have provided the security you are attributing, for > > the>past 400 years there are as many wars, forced famines and the like > > among church against church and state against state, Likewise being > > ignored are all the successful ventures of cooperation the past 400 > > years of religion and state; but regardless, that was then and now > > is now. What stikes me, is that with keen insight, (I would shure like > > to hear from the readers who already have noticed the following) one > > can begin to see the faint glimmers, that secular society and religious > > society are beginning to come upon, what the Hatcher's so elequantly > > wrote about, that religion is inseparable from science, they are married > > interwoven in the foundation. (I am not saying there are not appropriate > > manmade separations, in man's need for efficiency and specialization > > one needs to make artificial separations all the time, but if you look > > at Shoghi Effendi's writings on the Assemblies and Houses of Justice, > > and Abdul Baha's on schools, you can clearly see, that at the foundation > > level, religion and state are complimentary, and that the Local House of > > Justice, and Baha'i School are the foundation institutions of the New > > World Order state. > > All the best! > > > > > > > Your post seems to me to be ladened with the anti-intellectualism that > > > > > has become characteristic of the thinking of many Baha'is. Your > > > > > conclusions don't appear to me to be supported by the Baha'i Writings. > > > > > > > > > > Given modern religious history, since the 1600s really, Western > > > > > secularism has quite rightly that the separation of religion from > > > > > the state is in everyone's best interest. > > > > > > > > > > The Baha'i Faith has yet sufficiently to prove otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: Frederick Glaysher <@MOA.net> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:13:19 -0600 Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: srb-mods@bcca.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.31) X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Frederick, A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment this for private email. Rick Boatright co-moderator soc.religion.bahai > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > To: karl1971@aol.com > Cc: @MOA.net > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > [clip] > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > make love, not war. > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > or her life. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > daughter-in-law. > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > loathsome addiction. > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > -- Karl > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > veins.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:07:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171601.KAA08931@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the > newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, > but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the > newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation > that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment > this for private email. > > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > You "suspect" incorrectly. I certainly intended for my message to be posted. I'd appreciate if you'd act as a moderator and not a censor. I find you're interfering in my communication offensive. Post it. >From - Tue Nov 19 04:56:35 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.39) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:02:27 -0500 Message-ID: <32905FF7.25F8@moa.net> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:09:11 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171607.JAA22964@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Not suitable for the group. Tell hi mto take it to e-mail. > > Dick D. > Dick, I mean this in all seriousness. You're a fascist pig. I'd say that to your face, fellow.... > > From news@news2.acs.oakland.edu Sun Nov 17 07:43:51 1996 > > Received: from bcca.org (root@bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) by primenet.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id HAA12476 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 1 > > Received: from relay6.UU.NET by bcca.org with smtp > > (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vP8Rl-0008esC; Sun, 17 Nov 96 09:43 EST > > Received: from news2.acs.oakland.edu by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP > > (peer crosschecked as: news2.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.152]) > > id QQbqfq06145; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:44 -0500 (EST) > > Received: (from news@localhost) by news2.acs.oakland.edu (8.7.6/8.7.4) id JAA19072; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:51 -0500 > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-29.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 53 > > Message-ID: <328F24FC.253@moa.net> > > References: <"uiWV9.A.DUF.dSkjy"@bounty> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > [clip] > > > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > > make love, not war. > > > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > > or her life. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > > daughter-in-law. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > > loathsome addiction. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > > > -- Karl > > > > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > > veins.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA --------------E0F53172535-- From - Sun Feb 09 08:20:40 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:30 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01080; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:11:04 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:11:03 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #10 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855491017.390@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <855231267.29104@dejanews.com> <32FA096E.7CED@east.sun.com> <855352728.4063@dejanews.com> <5dgpbo$ifk@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:23:38 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 2430 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:47:54 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611181657.KAA17797@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > And in your internal model, what is the difference between a > moderator and a censor? See previous message to you. I asked a polite question. Did you intend > to post this? I sent it to the newsgroup, didn't I? Lots of people post things they didn't intend to, and > we catch a lot of those. In such cases, you'd be properly assisting discussion. They are generally greatful. I didn't > complain that you characterize Baha'i women as bloodless. Why should you? What business is it of yours? I'm not writing to you, nor do I want to. Yet here I am stuck in a non-productive task dealing with you and Richard.... I probebly > should. Why should you. Who the hell are you? I didn't complain that your comment was bigoted and > offensive to the vast majority of sexually active and spirited Baha'i > women, though I probebly should. A complaint you're entitled to make. In public. In response to me on the Net. Not shunting anything YOU don't like off into obscurity. Let them tell you that themselves. > I am saying the freedom for them to say so should be extended to them. You are robbing them of that God-given freedom of expression of conscience. > I asked a polite question. > > Lighten up. > Don't tell me to lighten up when you and Richard are perverting and screening the newsgroup self-righteous, prudishly suppressing opinions you don't like. Again, who are you two to make such decisions?Do you really imagine God has given you the ability to make such judgements? > Don't try to put a nazi mantle on my shoulders. > It's already there, Rick. Wake up. > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:14:41 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:30 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01080; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:11:04 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:11:03 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #10 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855491017.390@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <855231267.29104@dejanews.com> <32FA096E.7CED@east.sun.com> <855352728.4063@dejanews.com> <5dgpbo$ifk@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:23:38 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 2430 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:47:54 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611181657.KAA17797@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > And in your internal model, what is the difference between a > moderator and a censor? See previous message to you. I asked a polite question. Did you intend > to post this? I sent it to the newsgroup, didn't I? Lots of people post things they didn't intend to, and > we catch a lot of those. In such cases, you'd be properly assisting discussion. They are generally greatful. I didn't > complain that you characterize Baha'i women as bloodless. Why should you? What business is it of yours? I'm not writing to you, nor do I want to. Yet here I am stuck in a non-productive task dealing with you and Richard.... I probebly > should. Why should you. Who the hell are you? I didn't complain that your comment was bigoted and > offensive to the vast majority of sexually active and spirited Baha'i > women, though I probebly should. A complaint you're entitled to make. In public. In response to me on the Net. Not shunting anything YOU don't like off into obscurity. Let them tell you that themselves. > I am saying the freedom for them to say so should be extended to them. You are robbing them of that God-given freedom of expression of conscience. > I asked a polite question. > > Lighten up. > Don't tell me to lighten up when you and Richard are perverting and screening the newsgroup self-righteous, prudishly suppressing opinions you don't like. Again, who are you two to make such decisions?Do you really imagine God has given you the ability to make such judgements? > Don't try to put a nazi mantle on my shoulders. > It's already there, Rick. Wake up. > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Mon Feb 10 07:11:45 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:05:33 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id FAA02797; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 05:11:05 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 05:11:05 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Re: Censorship: s.r.bahai-3 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855571187.2273@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: eatcaca@hotmail.com, @moa.net References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <854977853.19354@dejanews.com> <32F8DE5C.5491@east.sun.com> <32F94956.651C@hotmail.com> X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 10 10:39:47 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 3329 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] In article <32F94956.651C@hotmail.com>, eatcaca@hotmail.com wrote: > > Mark Towfiq wrote: > > > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > I attempted to post a message or two to s.r.b charging > > > censorship a couple of months ago but they were suppressed, as > > > were other messages from me. > > > > I rather doubt whether meta-discussion ABOUT a moderated newsgroup > > belongs in the newsgroup; it certainly doesn't fit the SRB charter. I > > would have rejected such postings myself. The newsgroup exists for > > people to discuss the Baha'i Faith, not argue about how the group is > > run. That's what news.groups is for. :^) > > > > > Perhaps ipso facto that makes me a transgressor and miscreant? You > > > and others were deprived of deciding for yourselves. I rest my case. > > > > I am rather thankful I did not see such postings in SRB; furthermore, as > > others have pointed out, if you really would like us to decide for > > ourselves, let's see the postings you sent, and the moderators' > > responses. > >  > > > In terms of volume, I believe there is every reason to believe > > > that sufficient volume would exist talk.religion.bahai and > > > that the range and depths of topics would increase free of > > > smug, self-righteous, self-appointed guardians of public > > > discussion.... > > > > I think it is quite unfair that you would make such accusations at the > > moderators of SRB without having the decency to back them up with facts. I've attempted several times to upload them to news.groups. A technical problem I and my ISP can't figure out is preventing me from doing so. Don't give up. They'll be there yet. > > It is quite rude to call someone "smug" and "self-righteous"; I > > wouldn't be surprised if this is the flavor of postings you had rejected > > from SRB, and I certainly won't vote "YES" for a newsgroup designed just > > so you can flame about other people. > > Censorship isn't rude? I'll grant it certainly brings out the worst in me.... > > As for "self-appointed", the moderators of SRB were not self-appointed > > (they were interviewed by the previous moderators; I think Internet > > connectivity and familiarity with USENET were the highest criteria). Interviewed for what, their fascist leanings? No one voted for them; no one with in the administration appointed them, and yet they are regularly censoring messages, not only from myself but from many people.... It only makes sense that you wouldn't know, or do you? As > > I've already said, if a problem exists with the moderation, let's fix > > it. As I've said before, creating a new newsgroup doesn't fix it. > > Too late. Scrap the whole corrupt newsgroup. That's what I'm doing. Make no mistake. If anyone out there will upload my censored messages for me, email me at @moa.net.... > > Regards, > > Markso m th ing i s > w ron > g w i t h m y post -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Mon Feb 10 07:11:49 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:05:36 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id FAA02801; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 05:11:08 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 05:11:06 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Re: Censorship: s.r.bahai-3 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855571926.2413@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: towfiq@east.sun.com, @moa.net References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <854977853.19354@dejanews.com> <32F8DE5C.5491@east.sun.com> X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 10 10:52:07 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 3684 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] In article <32F8DE5C.5491@east.sun.com>, Mark Towfiq wrote: > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > I attempted to post a message or two to s.r.b charging > > censorship a couple of months ago but they were suppressed, as > > were other messages from me. > > I rather doubt whether meta-discussion ABOUT a moderated newsgroup > belongs in the newsgroup; it certainly doesn't fit the SRB charter. I > would have rejected such postings myself. The newsgroup exists for > people to discuss the Baha'i Faith, not argue about how the group is > run. That's what news.groups is for. :^) > What the "moderators" were doing was protecting their own rear ends. They're censoring people allllll the time now.... Unappointed, and no one voted for them.... Fascists through and through.... > > Perhaps ipso facto that makes me a transgressor and miscreant? You > > and others were deprived of deciding for yourselves. I rest my case. > > I am rather thankful I did not see such postings in SRB; furthermore, as > others have pointed out, if you really would like us to decide for > ourselves, let's see the postings you sent, and the moderators' > responses. I'm having a technical problem that's preventing me from uploading them to news.groups though I've tried at least five times in the last week. If anyone out there will upload them for me, email me at @moa.net..... > > In terms of volume, I believe there is every reason to believe > > that sufficient volume would exist talk.religion.bahai and > > that the range and depths of topics would increase free of > > smug, self-righteous, self-appointed guardians of public > > discussion.... > > I think it is quite unfair that you would make such accusations at the > moderators of SRB without having the decency to back them up with facts. It's unfair that they suppress messages apparently every day now and lie that it's all based on "flames," irrelevancy, etc.... > It is quite rude to call someone "smug" and "self-righteous"; I > wouldn't be surprised if this is the flavor of postings you had rejected > from SRB, and I certainly won't vote "YES" for a newsgroup designed just > so you can flame about other people. > They are smug and self-righteous about their censoring.... Most censors have been in human history.... Haven't you noticed that? It's all for the good of others, and THEY know what's good for other people. I want people to speak freely what they think, not what I think they SHOULD be saying.... > As for "self-appointed", the moderators of SRB were not self-appointed > (they were interviewed by the previous moderators; By other fascist oppressors? That's my reading of it. Stalin and Hitler working together for the good of the people of Poland.... I think Internet > connectivity and familiarity with USENET were the highest criteria). Meaningless ruse.... As > I've already said, if a problem exists with the moderation, let's fix > it. As I've said before, creating a new newsgroup doesn't fix it. > Too late. They had their chance and blew it. They've proven, judging by the amount of email I'm getting daily now, to many people that they're smug, self-righteous, self-appointed guardians of public discussion and morality vitiating now all discussion on soc.religion.bahai.... > Regards, > Mark Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Mon Feb 10 07:11:53 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:05:39 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id FAA02809; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 05:11:10 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 05:11:09 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Response 3 or 4 to Towfiq Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855572587.2613@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: towfiq@east.sun.com, cbstone@phoenix.princeton.edu, @moa.net References: <854889179.13648@dejanews.com> <32F4EC46.5EB3@why.net> <854976466.18697@dejanews.com> <32F66B3F.2C7C@east.sun.com> <5d6qmd$67a@cnn.Princeton.EDU> <32F759C8.7D39@east.sun.com> <855229799.28739@dejanews.com> <32FA06E2.262A@east.sun.com> X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 10 11:03:07 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 3209 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] In article <32FA06E2.262A@east.sun.com>, Mark Towfiq wrote: > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > I believe the examples demonstrate a need for an unmoderated group in > > order to protect freedom of speech and conscience. I don't believe > > we should minimize that need. > > There is a charter for the soc.religion.bahai newsgroup; is your argument with the > charter or with the moderators' execution of the charter? In either case, a > discussion can be had about it. I don't see where the need to create an entirely > new newsgroup comes from. Too late. The charter is irrelevant. The vote approaches.... The Soviet Union had a lovely, largely democratic constitution as many reputable historians have pointed out.... Any piece of paper can be abused as that charter has been. Hence, I believe only a newsgroup unmanipulated, undistorted by any smug, self-righteous, pious, arrogant "moderator" can ever ensure now a free and open forum for discussion of the Bahai Faith. > > Unless, as I suspect from reading your postings here, that you really want to > create a forum for you, personally, to talk about the Baha'i Faith, in which case > perhaps the RFD should be for talk.religion.bahai.frederick-glaysher. In that > case, as has been pointed out, talk.religion.misc exists for you to do all the > "free speaking" you wish. Cute. I've said it before. It will be for all those censored by soc.religion.bahai, and apparently people like you. I want a forum for all interested parties to discuss the Bahai Faith free from distorting intervention on the part of anyone.... >  > > Completely misses the point. It can't be fixed.... The very nature of > > moderated newsgroups is to censor, and it will happen again. Ergo, one > > that can't be controled and manipulated because of the very form in > > which it is created is essential. > > Based on this paragraph, I conclude that your argument is with moderation on USENET > in general, and you have made an RFD because the topic you want to talk about has a > moderated newsgroup. Most people understand that the nature of moderated groups is > to keep the signal-to-noise ratio high, and keep out irrelevent, duplicate, or > flaming postings. The nature of soc.religion.bahai is to lie, deceive, manipulate, suppress discussion about the Bahai Faith.... That's my experience.... That's the experience of many other people.... That's why I believe the vote will be in favor of an uncensored forum: talk.religion.bahai This is an advance of USENET that came about because of the > problems in unmoderated groups; creation of an unmoderated group would be a step > backwards. > > > I've stated it repeatedly! Read the examples of censorship I've posted > > on news.groups.... > > I can't find them there. When did you post them? > I'm working on it. If anyone out there will upload them for me, email me.... > Mark -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 10:18:33 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.57) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:05:59 -0500 Message-ID: <32FDE96B.CA0@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:12:43 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #10-19 References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6945624655E" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 46843 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6945624655E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Censored messages to soc.religion.bahai. --------------6945624655E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="srb10-19.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="srb10-19.txt" Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:35:36 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611181639.KAA16177@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I was trying to say two unrelated things. > > First, that was a really nice message. Well thought, cohesive, good > writing, I was trying to give you a compliment. > I don't need nor want your unsolicted editorial comments BIG BROTHER. I want the freedom to speak the conscience God has given me and the freedom to be responded to by OTHERS' unconstrained consciences. Stay out of the way. > Second, I was expressing my gratitude that the conflict between you > and the moderators a couple of weeks ago did not result in your > leaving the newsgroup. I appriciate your continued participation. > I feel nothing but contempt for the way you and Richard Detweiler have handled my postings. Make no mistake in that regard. Neither one of you, or anybody, has the prescience to exercise such power and control over others' consciences. The abuse of your power is a proper subject for discussion on the newsgroup. > > Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > > > Really nice message. Good work. Thanks for hanging in there with > > > us Frederick. I really appriciate it. > > > > > > Rick Boatright > > > > > > > Frankly, I don't know what you mean here. > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:47:54 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611181657.KAA17797@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > And in your internal model, what is the difference between a > moderator and a censor? See previous message to you. I asked a polite question. Did you intend > to post this? I sent it to the newsgroup, didn't I? Lots of people post things they didn't intend to, and > we catch a lot of those. In such cases, you'd be properly assisting discussion. They are generally greatful. I didn't > complain that you characterize Baha'i women as bloodless. Why should you? What business is it of yours? I'm not writing to you, nor do I want to. Yet here I am stuck in a non-productive task dealing with you and Richard.... I probebly > should. Why should you. Who the hell are you? I didn't complain that your comment was bigoted and > offensive to the vast majority of sexually active and spirited Baha'i > women, though I probebly should. A complaint you're entitled to make. In public. In response to me on the Net. Not shunting anything YOU don't like off into obscurity. Let them tell you that themselves. > I am saying the freedom for them to say so should be extended to them. You are robbing them of that God-given freedom of expression of conscience. > I asked a polite question. > > Lighten up. > Don't tell me to lighten up when you and Richard are perverting and screening the newsgroup self-righteous, prudishly suppressing opinions you don't like. Again, who are you two to make such decisions? Do you really imagine God has given you the ability to make such judgements? > Don't try to put a nazi mantle on my shoulders. > It's already there, Rick. Wake up. > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA >From - Wed Nov 20 10:10:58 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.58) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:46:37 -0500 Message-ID: <32930D52.2FC8@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:53:22 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. This newsgroup, > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > I'm not at all surprised Richardt.... Fascists and totalitarians have always sought to conceal and manipulate reality. > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 68 > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Sian Smith > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > >> > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is is > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed. We > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in the > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background that > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse of > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts. > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc. > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > another person). > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks. > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE > > reads.... It that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what > > is it? > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it.... > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged.... > > Let's not make waves.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > Wellington > > > New Zealand > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:26:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <"BYWGWC.A.PdB.pm0iy"@bounty> <328C806E.295C@moa.net> <32908412.2C44@oro.net> <3291A53E.78A1@moa.net> <3291CC64.9F@oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff wrote: > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > It > > > may be failing on my part if I don't try to correct > > > their view of me, but it is a far grosser failing if > > > I resent them for their views and let myself become > > > embittered by it. I won't change anything by lashing > > > out in anger, or by intentional alienation. Worst of all > > > if I separate myself from the entire Baha'i community > > > and Baha'u'allah because of these people, I'm only > > > doing myself a disservice. If they're really my enemies, > > > then my being a "weak sister" would be quite pleasing > > > to them. > > > > > > > You're a lovely soul. A more pious answer than I can muster. > > Piety has nothing to do with it. It's common sense. If we are > to unify, we must be unified. Unity can never be served by > anger or alienation. The only way to get rid of darkness is > to throw light on it. More darkness only conduces to, well... > more darkness. > > To my mind, after twenty years in the Baha'i Faith, the "unity" is a fraud, doesn't exist.... > > How will they deal with such things? What are the mechanisms? > > For "Evil is the Nature of Mankind." > > The mechanisms are those clearly laid down by Baha'u'llah, > Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. They involve a certain > giving up of self, consultation, respect, courtesy and > other attributes with which God has fully invested us. If these are the "mechanisms," they're insufficient. > I have served on assemblies for over 15 years. I've seen > this at work. Sometimes we need reminders, sometimes we > fail utterly, but the fact that we try is of paramount > importance and has great power. > > ""Evil is the Nature of Mankind?" Not according to > Baha'u'llah: > > "O Son of the Wondrous Vision! I have breathed upon thee > a breath of My own Spirit that thou mayest be My lover. > Why hast thou forsaken me and sought a beloved other > than Me?" > > "O Son of Spirit! Noble have I created thee, yet thou > hast abased thyself. Rise then, unto that for which > thou wast created." > > These passages and others make it clear that it is > our nature to be noble. Antinomy is presupposed. There is tragedy in Baha'u'llah's writings, tragedy minds like yours (I mean no insult), typically fail to understand. The other part is nurture. > We learn deceit and we teach it to others. We learn > hatred and we pass it along like a disease. > > > > Buddha said: Hatred does not cease by hatred, hatred ceases > > > by love. > > > > > > > Tell that to the Tibetans who have had their whole civilization > > wiped out.... > > They understand this better than anyone. What, after all, > nearly wiped out their civilization? Hatred and fear of what > was different and not controllable by the powers that would > be. > Even the Dali Lama has had second thoughts.... Much too late. > > They must. Let's be practical. What though when Assemblies self- > > righteously abuse their authority and persecute individuals? That > > can happen too, and then what? > > If a person feels he is being persecuted he has recourse to > the Auxiliary Board, another spiritual assembly, the National > Spiritual Assembly or even the House of Justice. Any and all > of these avenues of redress is open to the individual. Of > course, there is always the possibility that the individual's > perception that he's being "persecuted" is false. It's never > pleasant to be wrong about something, less pleasant to have > someone call your attention to it and ask that your behavior > change. I know this from personal experience. > > > > > As > > > an individual, I still had to treat the subject of consultation > > > with compassion. > > > > > > > A very dehumanizing phrase, Maya. It seems to me. This human tendency > > worries me. Don't tell me to pray about it. > > I'm sorry. I certainly didn't intend it to be. I intended it to be > neutral. Look, I have served on assemblies long enough to have > seen a gamut of personal problems and situations arise. I have > NEVER known an assembly to EVER lose sight of the fact that > what they were dealing with wasn't a problem, but a person. > Usually, the person is much loved, and their situation causes > the members of the institution very personal grief. > > The sad thing is that the soul involved doesn't always realize > this. And regardless of the actual feelings of the assembly > members, treats them as if they were indeed, a persecuting > force. One young man an assembly I sat on counseled had a > drug problem for which he refused to get help. He viewed > the mere fact that the assembly called him for consultation > as an act of personal persecution. He thought the people on > the assembly were "out to get him," when in fact, every one > of them loved him, valued him and wanted him to be well both > spiritually and physically. After one meeting in which we had > attempted to talk to him, several members of the assembly burst > into tears. > Anything in the name of love? Nine amateur spiritual psychologists are just going to talk someone straight? I've seen it attempted too with similar results.... > > > > Reasonable. Many in the Faith thinks this way. I do too in some regards. > > But then we're no longer in a world of ideal beauty.... > > But Baha'u'llah is clear that His teachings and the power > released by His revelation have the capacity to light that > spark He says lies latent within us. I've seen what that > spark can accomplish in the lives of ordinary human beings. > We have within our grasp the means of bringing that world > of ideal beauty out of the realm of spirit and onto this > earth. The scriptures of God's faith in every age proclaim > this unequivocally. > And have always failed.... By there own self-definitions, failed. Why? What is it about human nature? Do you actually believe the Baha'i Faith will do any better? I don't. I don't believe the deepest suggestions of the writings suggest any such thing. > > My post, I believe, was about the individual capacity to sully anything > > and everything in "this world of gloom." > > May I call you Eeyore? :) (Sorry, couldn't help myself.) > I tried to post a reply to on the newsgroup. I used the same phrase in the copy I mailed you: "utterly naive" Richard Detweiler has banned my post because it might hurt your feelings--not my intention. A good example of the self-righteous Fascism build the new world order inspires in Baha'i fanatics.... Calling me Eeyore doesn't hurt my feelings. I have, unlike fanatics, a sense of humor and relish the variety of human temperaments God has so blessed the world with. Yours is not mine, that is all. Do the Faith a favor, write the CENSOR and tell him to respect the human conscience of others, not only mine. > In the Kitab-i-Iqan, Baha'u'llah says that when we truly > accept Him, recognize Him, the Holy Spirit will confer > upon us "a new ear, a new eye, a new heart and a new mind." > We are capable of being transformed, and the Word of God > (and only the Word of God ) is capable of causing that > transformation. > Beautiful metaphors. Understand? > I am deeply sorry that your experience within the > Baha'i community has been so negative. The lack of complexity is what concerns me, and the lack of acknowledgement of proportion. But every > negative experience in life offers us more than one > way to react. I've often marveled how adversity can > make one person opt for a life of misery and > recrimination (it was mother's fault, it was God's > fault, it was...) and another come to the decision that > they will simply NOT let that adversity steal their > joy, or their life. > > I know there are Baha'i communities that are ruled > by a small clique of set in stone believers, or > groups where a number of petty-minded souls seem > to have things in control. Indeed, I have a friend > who lived in such a community until a new Baha'i > family moved in and changed the dynamics of the > situation. My friend chose to deal with the problem > by withdrawing. The new friends set about and > accomplished the renewal of that community by > opening their house to firesides, getting the > assembly to meet, teaching the faith, and most > important, showering everyone in their community, > including those set in stone souls with love. They > gave the community the medicine Baha'u'llah > prescribed and saved the patient. > The usual answer. Lacking complexity. > You may argue against the idea that hatred ceases > only through love, but this is a prescription from > a Physician who knows far more about the ills of > human kind than either you or I. > It has never truly healed the patient. Baha'u'llah, unlike Baha'is, understands the condition is terminal.... > Mir, Maya > +----------------------------------------+ > | Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff syntax@oro.net | > +----------------------------------------+ > | "The beginning of all things is the | > | knowledge of God." - Baha'u'llah | > +----------------------------------------+ -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community To: @moa.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:43:07 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 19, 96 06:10:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, that would be acceptable. Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these events. Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and blatant sarcasm. Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@moa.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 78 > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > To: Anne Furlong > CC: @moa.net > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > whatsoever. > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > [clip] > > > > > Why do people become disillusioned with the community? with individuals? > > Well, we all know people who, by force of personality, or because of > > defects of character and personality, receive, demand, or desire > > acquiescence from other individuals. But note: if such people do in fact > > poison a community, who ultimately must take the responsibility? Power > > is not theirs to command: it is ceded to them by those who have not the > > wisdom or the courage to recognise that what is being asked is both > > contrary to the Faith, and ultimately impossible to give. > > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > > Yes, impossible: for since in the Administrative order which is > > Baha'u'llah's gift to the world, power and authority are divided, > > In theory, yes; in practice, I'm not convinced. > > then the > > efforts of a few misguided individuals to bring power and authority > > together in their own persons; or to build up factions; or to do anything, > > in fact, which is contravenes the spirit and the reality of the Covenant, > > are doomed to failure. 'Abdu'l-Baha said that the ocean of the Covenant > > will surge and surge until it casts the bodies of the (spiritually) dead > > onto the shore. We cannot ultimately harm the progress of the Cause, but > > can cut ourselves off from the abundant share of the blessings which > > obedience to the Covenant brings to us. > > > > If we are disillusioned with the community we live in, then our response > > will either add to the problem or be the start of its eradication. The > > whole purpose of consultation is to allow the individual to exercise > > responsibility - his power - within the "unit of civilization". > > What I am saying is that there are situations when it is not allowed. You're > too quick to leap over that fact for me. > > We are > > all going to be responsible for our actions to Baha'u'llah when we pass > > from this earth; are we going to plead the immaturity of others as the > > reason for our failure to love? > > > > Your dragging "love" into this confuses the issue. > > > Baha'u'llah did more than despise tyranny; in his Administrative Order, > > He, as the Divine Physician, prescribed the effective and permanent remedy. > > > > The point from the original post was in regard to the abuse of the remedy, > turning it into a cheap medicine show elixir. What then of the community > or individuals under that Tyranny? > > > All the best, > > > > Anne Furlong > > St John's Newfoundland Canada > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:27:04 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > False. They go to the heart of the matter, i.e., how it functions. > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. "Vent your frustrations" is in the same category as my "Utterly naive." I don't seek to deprive you of your conscience that apparently believes that. You may say what you wish. It won't hurt my little feelings. I believe you're again manipulating discussion in a dictatorial, oppressive manner unjustified by anything in the Baha'i Writings which you apparently cloak your shameless deeds in. This newsgroup, > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > The abuse of the conscience of a member of the Baha'i Faith and, apparently regular practice of distortion and censorship is not a suitable topic? I can understand why you wouldn't wish to have anyone else know.... > Thank you for participating, > I'm not participating at all. You are self-righteous depriving me of that. You are also depriving others of hearing or disagreeing with my opinions. > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 68 > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Sian Smith > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > >> > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is is > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed. We > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in the > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background that > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse of > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts. > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc. > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > another person). > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks. > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE > > reads.... If that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what > > is it? > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it.... > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged.... > > Let's not make ways.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > Wellington > > > New Zealand > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > = End submitted post =========================== YOU DEAR CENSORS have shown your true colors once again. >From - Wed Nov 20 13:57:47 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.66) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:25:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3293247F.2340@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:32:15 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Further response-- Your characterization of my comments as sarcastic is ludicrous. One may not be sarcastic in the Baha'i Faith? And you are too determine is toooooo SARCASTIC? Oh God, what a farce! Since you apparently don't understand the passage in question, I'm supposed to water in down for YOUR ignorance! I'm talking about the totalitarianism of the SOVIET UNION which you dangerously come close to. Again, I request that you post my message or pass it on to someone else who is not as fanatical as you. Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack > on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, > that would be acceptable. > > Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events > than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these > events. > > Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, > you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for > the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and > blatant sarcasm. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 78 > > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Anne Furlong > > CC: @moa.net > > > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > > whatsoever. > > > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > > > [clip] From: FG <@MOA.net> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:43:04 -0500 Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32945C68.3378@moa.net> References: <56tfo6$cgg@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <56vdgi$eth@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) CC: @MOA.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling through this morass.... The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the power to change the world.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611202214.PAA26784@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > > The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be subject > > > to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include frank > > > yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search > > > for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this statement > > > alone that I have rejected some of your posts. > > > > I don't believe this is true. "Utterly naive" refers to the idea, not to > > its author as an insult. You're the one who has construed that way. I can't > > even understand what could possibly be WRONG with your objection to the > > second passage in the post in question. > > > > Thank you for pointing this out - I hadn't thought of it like that. Then what's YOUR problem. Post it or suppress it. But I > hope you can see that if I (and the other mods) can be confused on this > point, it will probably be the case with many in the readership as well. You're assumption is that OTHERS will be as imperceptive as you. And hence you BAN ME! > Our tendency is to err on the side of not posting things when they may be > misinterpretted by the readership as being attacks or insults. Even after admitting the ERROR is on your part? Not logical. You're trying to justify your heavy-handed will to BAN. That way, > the respectful tone is maintained. There is nothing disrespectful about either passage YOU'VE questioned. Remember that the readership includes > people from all backgrounds and cultures. Irrelevant justification. You're groping for excuses. I have been surprised many times > when seemingly innocuous comments have offended. Nothing would then ever get posted in your scenario. Unless it meets your prejudices. I try to make sure the > chance of this is kept to a minimum. > I don't know that. You're suppression to posting ratio would be required to make that determination; it would have to be independently confirmed. > And, if I may, don't you think "I believe you are being naive because..." > makes your points easier for other to accept and continue to engage you > rather than a brusque "Utterly naive"? Please think about that. I > assume your reason for being here is to share your viewpoint with others. > You sound like a schoolmarm. A self-righteous, prudish old bag. What gives you the right? God's charter? It doesn't come from Him. > > Your attempt to hide behind the newsgroup charter strikes me as a mere > > stratagem to conceal what you're actually doing: CENSORING. > > > > Once again, Mr Glaysher - my job is not to supress ideas but to make sure > those ideas are presented in a respectful manner conducive to frank and > unfettered consultation. > You're completely fettering my consultation. But that's okay. You possess the prescience to know better. Again, you're groping for justification of your suppressing the presentation of my views to others. > I continue to await the chance to post your thoughts in the submittals in > question when they are appropriate for posting to the newsgroup. > Mr. Detweiler, you appear to me to be completely shameless and drunk on your little power to muzzle people who don't echo your opinions. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai Again, I ask you to post my message since as you acknowledge above its about IDEAS. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611221548.IAA01560@primenet.com> Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled To: @MOA.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:48:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 22, 96 08:18:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Sorry for the inadvertent send on the last message. The following will not be posted to the newsgroup as it is disrespectful in tone and sarcastic in the extreme. As a Baha'i, perhaps you will get some value out of the following excerpts from Baha'u'llah's Writings. I provide them as insight into why the moderators enforce the policies they have in place. "O ye beloved of the Lord! Commit not that which defileth the limpid stream of love or destroyeth the sweet fragrance of friendship. By the righteousness of the Lord! We were created to show love one to another and not perversity and rancor. Take pride not in love for yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love for your country, but in love for all mankind." - Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah 138 (quoted in "Unrestrained as the Wind", section on "Demonstrating love and fellowship", p 87 ). "Say: Human utterance is an essence which aspireth to exert its influence and needeth moderation. As to its influence, this is conditional upon refinement which in turn is dependent upon hearts which are detached and pure. As to its moderation, this hath to be combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures and Tablets. Meditate upon that which hath streamed forth from the heaven of the Will of thy Lord, He Who is the Source of all grace, that thou mayest grasp the intended meaning which is enshrined in the sacred depths of the Holy Writings." - Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Wisdom, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 143 "For the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of speech a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endure a century." - Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 193 Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-11.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:18:05 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 20 > Message-ID: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> > References: <56vhv1$p1e@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > CC: @MOA.net > > Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always > been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult > to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling > through this morass.... > > The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: > > > THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! > > > There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. > > I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the > power to change the world.... > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== >From - Sun Nov 24 10:10:50 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.60) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:34:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3296F108.4BEF@moa.net> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:41:44 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611211540.IAA09540@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 What I wrote meets the charter of the newsgroup and the "modifications" you want are unnecessary and unjustifiable. You yourself acknowledged your request for "modification" was based on your own misreading and misunderstanding of the post. God save us if the Baha'i Faith comes down to people like you "protecting" us.... I ask you again to post it or pass it on to someone else who's more rational than you. --------------6945624655E-- From - Sun Feb 09 10:19:15 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.57) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:10:15 -0500 Message-ID: <32FDEA67.6954@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:16:55 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #10-19.txt References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------49D9199ECD1" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 46855 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------49D9199ECD1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Censored messages to soc.religion.bahai: plain text. --------------49D9199ECD1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="srb10-19.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="srb10-19.txt" Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:35:36 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611181639.KAA16177@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I was trying to say two unrelated things. > > First, that was a really nice message. Well thought, cohesive, good > writing, I was trying to give you a compliment. > I don't need nor want your unsolicted editorial comments BIG BROTHER. I want the freedom to speak the conscience God has given me and the freedom to be responded to by OTHERS' unconstrained consciences. Stay out of the way. > Second, I was expressing my gratitude that the conflict between you > and the moderators a couple of weeks ago did not result in your > leaving the newsgroup. I appriciate your continued participation. > I feel nothing but contempt for the way you and Richard Detweiler have handled my postings. Make no mistake in that regard. Neither one of you, or anybody, has the prescience to exercise such power and control over others' consciences. The abuse of your power is a proper subject for discussion on the newsgroup. > > Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > > > Really nice message. Good work. Thanks for hanging in there with > > > us Frederick. I really appriciate it. > > > > > > Rick Boatright > > > > > > > Frankly, I don't know what you mean here. > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:47:54 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611181657.KAA17797@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > And in your internal model, what is the difference between a > moderator and a censor? See previous message to you. I asked a polite question. Did you intend > to post this? I sent it to the newsgroup, didn't I? Lots of people post things they didn't intend to, and > we catch a lot of those. In such cases, you'd be properly assisting discussion. They are generally greatful. I didn't > complain that you characterize Baha'i women as bloodless. Why should you? What business is it of yours? I'm not writing to you, nor do I want to. Yet here I am stuck in a non-productive task dealing with you and Richard.... I probebly > should. Why should you. Who the hell are you? I didn't complain that your comment was bigoted and > offensive to the vast majority of sexually active and spirited Baha'i > women, though I probebly should. A complaint you're entitled to make. In public. In response to me on the Net. Not shunting anything YOU don't like off into obscurity. Let them tell you that themselves. > I am saying the freedom for them to say so should be extended to them. You are robbing them of that God-given freedom of expression of conscience. > I asked a polite question. > > Lighten up. > Don't tell me to lighten up when you and Richard are perverting and screening the newsgroup self-righteous, prudishly suppressing opinions you don't like. Again, who are you two to make such decisions? Do you really imagine God has given you the ability to make such judgements? > Don't try to put a nazi mantle on my shoulders. > It's already there, Rick. Wake up. > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA >From - Wed Nov 20 10:10:58 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.58) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:46:37 -0500 Message-ID: <32930D52.2FC8@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:53:22 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. This newsgroup, > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > I'm not at all surprised Richardt.... Fascists and totalitarians have always sought to conceal and manipulate reality. > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 68 > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Sian Smith > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > >> > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is is > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed. We > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in the > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background that > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse of > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts. > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc. > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > another person). > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks. > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE > > reads.... It that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what > > is it? > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it.... > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged.... > > Let's not make waves.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > Wellington > > > New Zealand > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:26:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <"BYWGWC.A.PdB.pm0iy"@bounty> <328C806E.295C@moa.net> <32908412.2C44@oro.net> <3291A53E.78A1@moa.net> <3291CC64.9F@oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff wrote: > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > It > > > may be failing on my part if I don't try to correct > > > their view of me, but it is a far grosser failing if > > > I resent them for their views and let myself become > > > embittered by it. I won't change anything by lashing > > > out in anger, or by intentional alienation. Worst of all > > > if I separate myself from the entire Baha'i community > > > and Baha'u'allah because of these people, I'm only > > > doing myself a disservice. If they're really my enemies, > > > then my being a "weak sister" would be quite pleasing > > > to them. > > > > > > > You're a lovely soul. A more pious answer than I can muster. > > Piety has nothing to do with it. It's common sense. If we are > to unify, we must be unified. Unity can never be served by > anger or alienation. The only way to get rid of darkness is > to throw light on it. More darkness only conduces to, well... > more darkness. > > To my mind, after twenty years in the Baha'i Faith, the "unity" is a fraud, doesn't exist.... > > How will they deal with such things? What are the mechanisms? > > For "Evil is the Nature of Mankind." > > The mechanisms are those clearly laid down by Baha'u'llah, > Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. They involve a certain > giving up of self, consultation, respect, courtesy and > other attributes with which God has fully invested us. If these are the "mechanisms," they're insufficient. > I have served on assemblies for over 15 years. I've seen > this at work. Sometimes we need reminders, sometimes we > fail utterly, but the fact that we try is of paramount > importance and has great power. > > ""Evil is the Nature of Mankind?" Not according to > Baha'u'llah: > > "O Son of the Wondrous Vision! I have breathed upon thee > a breath of My own Spirit that thou mayest be My lover. > Why hast thou forsaken me and sought a beloved other > than Me?" > > "O Son of Spirit! Noble have I created thee, yet thou > hast abased thyself. Rise then, unto that for which > thou wast created." > > These passages and others make it clear that it is > our nature to be noble. Antinomy is presupposed. There is tragedy in Baha'u'llah's writings, tragedy minds like yours (I mean no insult), typically fail to understand. The other part is nurture. > We learn deceit and we teach it to others. We learn > hatred and we pass it along like a disease. > > > > Buddha said: Hatred does not cease by hatred, hatred ceases > > > by love. > > > > > > > Tell that to the Tibetans who have had their whole civilization > > wiped out.... > > They understand this better than anyone. What, after all, > nearly wiped out their civilization? Hatred and fear of what > was different and not controllable by the powers that would > be. > Even the Dali Lama has had second thoughts.... Much too late. > > They must. Let's be practical. What though when Assemblies self- > > righteously abuse their authority and persecute individuals? That > > can happen too, and then what? > > If a person feels he is being persecuted he has recourse to > the Auxiliary Board, another spiritual assembly, the National > Spiritual Assembly or even the House of Justice. Any and all > of these avenues of redress is open to the individual. Of > course, there is always the possibility that the individual's > perception that he's being "persecuted" is false. It's never > pleasant to be wrong about something, less pleasant to have > someone call your attention to it and ask that your behavior > change. I know this from personal experience. > > > > > As > > > an individual, I still had to treat the subject of consultation > > > with compassion. > > > > > > > A very dehumanizing phrase, Maya. It seems to me. This human tendency > > worries me. Don't tell me to pray about it. > > I'm sorry. I certainly didn't intend it to be. I intended it to be > neutral. Look, I have served on assemblies long enough to have > seen a gamut of personal problems and situations arise. I have > NEVER known an assembly to EVER lose sight of the fact that > what they were dealing with wasn't a problem, but a person. > Usually, the person is much loved, and their situation causes > the members of the institution very personal grief. > > The sad thing is that the soul involved doesn't always realize > this. And regardless of the actual feelings of the assembly > members, treats them as if they were indeed, a persecuting > force. One young man an assembly I sat on counseled had a > drug problem for which he refused to get help. He viewed > the mere fact that the assembly called him for consultation > as an act of personal persecution. He thought the people on > the assembly were "out to get him," when in fact, every one > of them loved him, valued him and wanted him to be well both > spiritually and physically. After one meeting in which we had > attempted to talk to him, several members of the assembly burst > into tears. > Anything in the name of love? Nine amateur spiritual psychologists are just going to talk someone straight? I've seen it attempted too with similar results.... > > > > Reasonable. Many in the Faith thinks this way. I do too in some regards. > > But then we're no longer in a world of ideal beauty.... > > But Baha'u'llah is clear that His teachings and the power > released by His revelation have the capacity to light that > spark He says lies latent within us. I've seen what that > spark can accomplish in the lives of ordinary human beings. > We have within our grasp the means of bringing that world > of ideal beauty out of the realm of spirit and onto this > earth. The scriptures of God's faith in every age proclaim > this unequivocally. > And have always failed.... By there own self-definitions, failed. Why? What is it about human nature? Do you actually believe the Baha'i Faith will do any better? I don't. I don't believe the deepest suggestions of the writings suggest any such thing. > > My post, I believe, was about the individual capacity to sully anything > > and everything in "this world of gloom." > > May I call you Eeyore? :) (Sorry, couldn't help myself.) > I tried to post a reply to on the newsgroup. I used the same phrase in the copy I mailed you: "utterly naive" Richard Detweiler has banned my post because it might hurt your feelings--not my intention. A good example of the self-righteous Fascism build the new world order inspires in Baha'i fanatics.... Calling me Eeyore doesn't hurt my feelings. I have, unlike fanatics, a sense of humor and relish the variety of human temperaments God has so blessed the world with. Yours is not mine, that is all. Do the Faith a favor, write the CENSOR and tell him to respect the human conscience of others, not only mine. > In the Kitab-i-Iqan, Baha'u'llah says that when we truly > accept Him, recognize Him, the Holy Spirit will confer > upon us "a new ear, a new eye, a new heart and a new mind." > We are capable of being transformed, and the Word of God > (and only the Word of God ) is capable of causing that > transformation. > Beautiful metaphors. Understand? > I am deeply sorry that your experience within the > Baha'i community has been so negative. The lack of complexity is what concerns me, and the lack of acknowledgement of proportion. But every > negative experience in life offers us more than one > way to react. I've often marveled how adversity can > make one person opt for a life of misery and > recrimination (it was mother's fault, it was God's > fault, it was...) and another come to the decision that > they will simply NOT let that adversity steal their > joy, or their life. > > I know there are Baha'i communities that are ruled > by a small clique of set in stone believers, or > groups where a number of petty-minded souls seem > to have things in control. Indeed, I have a friend > who lived in such a community until a new Baha'i > family moved in and changed the dynamics of the > situation. My friend chose to deal with the problem > by withdrawing. The new friends set about and > accomplished the renewal of that community by > opening their house to firesides, getting the > assembly to meet, teaching the faith, and most > important, showering everyone in their community, > including those set in stone souls with love. They > gave the community the medicine Baha'u'llah > prescribed and saved the patient. > The usual answer. Lacking complexity. > You may argue against the idea that hatred ceases > only through love, but this is a prescription from > a Physician who knows far more about the ills of > human kind than either you or I. > It has never truly healed the patient. Baha'u'llah, unlike Baha'is, understands the condition is terminal.... > Mir, Maya > +----------------------------------------+ > | Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff syntax@oro.net | > +----------------------------------------+ > | "The beginning of all things is the | > | knowledge of God." - Baha'u'llah | > +----------------------------------------+ -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community To: @moa.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:43:07 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 19, 96 06:10:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, that would be acceptable. Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these events. Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and blatant sarcasm. Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@moa.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 78 > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > To: Anne Furlong > CC: @moa.net > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > whatsoever. > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > [clip] > > > > > Why do people become disillusioned with the community? with individuals? > > Well, we all know people who, by force of personality, or because of > > defects of character and personality, receive, demand, or desire > > acquiescence from other individuals. But note: if such people do in fact > > poison a community, who ultimately must take the responsibility? Power > > is not theirs to command: it is ceded to them by those who have not the > > wisdom or the courage to recognise that what is being asked is both > > contrary to the Faith, and ultimately impossible to give. > > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > > Yes, impossible: for since in the Administrative order which is > > Baha'u'llah's gift to the world, power and authority are divided, > > In theory, yes; in practice, I'm not convinced. > > then the > > efforts of a few misguided individuals to bring power and authority > > together in their own persons; or to build up factions; or to do anything, > > in fact, which is contravenes the spirit and the reality of the Covenant, > > are doomed to failure. 'Abdu'l-Baha said that the ocean of the Covenant > > will surge and surge until it casts the bodies of the (spiritually) dead > > onto the shore. We cannot ultimately harm the progress of the Cause, but > > can cut ourselves off from the abundant share of the blessings which > > obedience to the Covenant brings to us. > > > > If we are disillusioned with the community we live in, then our response > > will either add to the problem or be the start of its eradication. The > > whole purpose of consultation is to allow the individual to exercise > > responsibility - his power - within the "unit of civilization". > > What I am saying is that there are situations when it is not allowed. You're > too quick to leap over that fact for me. > > We are > > all going to be responsible for our actions to Baha'u'llah when we pass > > from this earth; are we going to plead the immaturity of others as the > > reason for our failure to love? > > > > Your dragging "love" into this confuses the issue. > > > Baha'u'llah did more than despise tyranny; in his Administrative Order, > > He, as the Divine Physician, prescribed the effective and permanent remedy. > > > > The point from the original post was in regard to the abuse of the remedy, > turning it into a cheap medicine show elixir. What then of the community > or individuals under that Tyranny? > > > All the best, > > > > Anne Furlong > > St John's Newfoundland Canada > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:27:04 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > False. They go to the heart of the matter, i.e., how it functions. > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. "Vent your frustrations" is in the same category as my "Utterly naive." I don't seek to deprive you of your conscience that apparently believes that. You may say what you wish. It won't hurt my little feelings. I believe you're again manipulating discussion in a dictatorial, oppressive manner unjustified by anything in the Baha'i Writings which you apparently cloak your shameless deeds in. This newsgroup, > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > The abuse of the conscience of a member of the Baha'i Faith and, apparently regular practice of distortion and censorship is not a suitable topic? I can understand why you wouldn't wish to have anyone else know.... > Thank you for participating, > I'm not participating at all. You are self-righteous depriving me of that. You are also depriving others of hearing or disagreeing with my opinions. > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 68 > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Sian Smith > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > >> > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is is > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed. We > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in the > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background that > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse of > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts. > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc. > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > another person). > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks. > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE > > reads.... If that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what > > is it? > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it.... > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged.... > > Let's not make ways.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > Wellington > > > New Zealand > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > = End submitted post =========================== YOU DEAR CENSORS have shown your true colors once again. >From - Wed Nov 20 13:57:47 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.66) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:25:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3293247F.2340@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:32:15 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Further response-- Your characterization of my comments as sarcastic is ludicrous. One may not be sarcastic in the Baha'i Faith? And you are too determine is toooooo SARCASTIC? Oh God, what a farce! Since you apparently don't understand the passage in question, I'm supposed to water in down for YOUR ignorance! I'm talking about the totalitarianism of the SOVIET UNION which you dangerously come close to. Again, I request that you post my message or pass it on to someone else who is not as fanatical as you. Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack > on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, > that would be acceptable. > > Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events > than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these > events. > > Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, > you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for > the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and > blatant sarcasm. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 78 > > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Anne Furlong > > CC: @moa.net > > > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > > whatsoever. > > > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > > > [clip] From: FG <@MOA.net> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:43:04 -0500 Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32945C68.3378@moa.net> References: <56tfo6$cgg@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <56vdgi$eth@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) CC: @MOA.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling through this morass.... The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the power to change the world.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611202214.PAA26784@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > > The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be subject > > > to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include frank > > > yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search > > > for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this statement > > > alone that I have rejected some of your posts. > > > > I don't believe this is true. "Utterly naive" refers to the idea, not to > > its author as an insult. You're the one who has construed that way. I can't > > even understand what could possibly be WRONG with your objection to the > > second passage in the post in question. > > > > Thank you for pointing this out - I hadn't thought of it like that. Then what's YOUR problem. Post it or suppress it. But I > hope you can see that if I (and the other mods) can be confused on this > point, it will probably be the case with many in the readership as well. You're assumption is that OTHERS will be as imperceptive as you. And hence you BAN ME! > Our tendency is to err on the side of not posting things when they may be > misinterpretted by the readership as being attacks or insults. Even after admitting the ERROR is on your part? Not logical. You're trying to justify your heavy-handed will to BAN. That way, > the respectful tone is maintained. There is nothing disrespectful about either passage YOU'VE questioned. Remember that the readership includes > people from all backgrounds and cultures. Irrelevant justification. You're groping for excuses. I have been surprised many times > when seemingly innocuous comments have offended. Nothing would then ever get posted in your scenario. Unless it meets your prejudices. I try to make sure the > chance of this is kept to a minimum. > I don't know that. You're suppression to posting ratio would be required to make that determination; it would have to be independently confirmed. > And, if I may, don't you think "I believe you are being naive because..." > makes your points easier for other to accept and continue to engage you > rather than a brusque "Utterly naive"? Please think about that. I > assume your reason for being here is to share your viewpoint with others. > You sound like a schoolmarm. A self-righteous, prudish old bag. What gives you the right? God's charter? It doesn't come from Him. > > Your attempt to hide behind the newsgroup charter strikes me as a mere > > stratagem to conceal what you're actually doing: CENSORING. > > > > Once again, Mr Glaysher - my job is not to supress ideas but to make sure > those ideas are presented in a respectful manner conducive to frank and > unfettered consultation. > You're completely fettering my consultation. But that's okay. You possess the prescience to know better. Again, you're groping for justification of your suppressing the presentation of my views to others. > I continue to await the chance to post your thoughts in the submittals in > question when they are appropriate for posting to the newsgroup. > Mr. Detweiler, you appear to me to be completely shameless and drunk on your little power to muzzle people who don't echo your opinions. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai Again, I ask you to post my message since as you acknowledge above its about IDEAS. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611221548.IAA01560@primenet.com> Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled To: @MOA.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:48:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 22, 96 08:18:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Sorry for the inadvertent send on the last message. The following will not be posted to the newsgroup as it is disrespectful in tone and sarcastic in the extreme. As a Baha'i, perhaps you will get some value out of the following excerpts from Baha'u'llah's Writings. I provide them as insight into why the moderators enforce the policies they have in place. "O ye beloved of the Lord! Commit not that which defileth the limpid stream of love or destroyeth the sweet fragrance of friendship. By the righteousness of the Lord! We were created to show love one to another and not perversity and rancor. Take pride not in love for yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love for your country, but in love for all mankind." - Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah 138 (quoted in "Unrestrained as the Wind", section on "Demonstrating love and fellowship", p 87 ). "Say: Human utterance is an essence which aspireth to exert its influence and needeth moderation. As to its influence, this is conditional upon refinement which in turn is dependent upon hearts which are detached and pure. As to its moderation, this hath to be combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures and Tablets. Meditate upon that which hath streamed forth from the heaven of the Will of thy Lord, He Who is the Source of all grace, that thou mayest grasp the intended meaning which is enshrined in the sacred depths of the Holy Writings." - Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Wisdom, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 143 "For the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of speech a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endure a century." - Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 193 Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-11.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:18:05 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 20 > Message-ID: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> > References: <56vhv1$p1e@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > CC: @MOA.net > > Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always > been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult > to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling > through this morass.... > > The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: > > > THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! > > > There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. > > I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the > power to change the world.... > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== >From - Sun Nov 24 10:10:50 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.60) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:34:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3296F108.4BEF@moa.net> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:41:44 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611211540.IAA09540@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 What I wrote meets the charter of the newsgroup and the "modifications" you want are unnecessary and unjustifiable. You yourself acknowledged your request for "modification" was based on your own misreading and misunderstanding of the post. God save us if the Baha'i Faith comes down to people like you "protecting" us.... I ask you again to post it or pass it on to someone else who's more rational than you. --------------49D9199ECD1-- From - Sun Feb 09 10:18:16 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.57) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:03:38 -0500 Message-ID: <32FDE8E1.551B@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:10:25 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #1-9 References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------94CC9B2307" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 31452 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------94CC9B2307 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Censored message to soc.religion.bahai. --------------94CC9B2307 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="srb1-9.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="srb1-9.txt" >From - Thu Nov 07 16:39:58 1996 Message-ID: <3282572E.2005@moa.net> Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 16:39:58 -0500 From: <@moa.net> Organization: X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Friend, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I am returningthis to you for editting. I cannot allow the blanket > statements: I refuse to edit my post in any way whatsoever. Your role as a moderator is not to be a fascist and stunt the serious exchange of ideas. Incidentally, "editting" is spelt with one "t." > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > especially in this regard. > > and > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > and obedience. > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > general or backed up by fact. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-1.ouhub.moa.net > > From: <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 > > Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:08:44 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 87 > > Message-ID: <3282098C.31E@moa.net> > > References: <55sp6p$q76@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Personally, over the years I've been incredibly disillusioned with the Bahai > > > Community. I was brainwashed to believe it meant a lot of things it > > > doesn't. To, illustrate, I can still remember going to a youth deepening > > > when I was 17 and hearing this highly respected fiery lipped ex-radical > > > ominously railing to us guys about "locker room talk" --- basically in her > > > war like ways she was trying to instill a sense of shame for thinking > > > unchaste thoughts ---- which was good in a sense ---- but believe me, the way > > > she worded herself was absolute condescending nonsense. She cleverly made it > > > sound like it was a terrible crime to get horny. --- The point being, at the > > > time, being a na ve kid, I took her way too seriously. > > > > > > > Karl, people are evil and twist and debase every political and religious form to > > their own purposes. I've witnessed this same kind of thing in the Baha'i Faith > > many, many times. Who, if they have even a modicum of honesty and perspicacity, > > hasn't? > > > > > As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > "Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > > > > > Many people are all too willing to ASSUME these roles--through election or > > otherwise makes little difference. Tainted wine in new vessels. > > > > > > > > Moreover, it is precisely this sense of distrust for people in an > > > authoritative position such as priests, that in my opinion, strikes a nerve > > > in America's character. ---- If one needs good tactics for mass enrollments > > > in the U.S., my suggestion is that we start with those aspects of the Faith > > > that appeal to those who have good reasons to distrust authority. After all, > > > isn't this distrust a tradition in this country? > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > especially in this regard. > > > > > If one needs a reason to see why its so easy for people not to be Bahais, or > > > for that matter, why it's so easy to disobey the Laws of God, look no further > > > than members of the influential Bahai Community playing surrogate priests to > > > those foolish enough to play surrogate parish ----- Which has the inevitable > > > effect of denying what's a part of life: what's worth respecting, what's > > > worth being ashamed of, and what's worth forgiving. > > > > > > > You, sir, have an Antinomian mind; you should OBEY!!!! > > > > > These roles have this effect because sooner or later a parish will wonder if > > > the priest is worth putting on a pedestal. As such, it will eventually see > > > the natural flaws in his character and not take a damn thing he says > > > seriously. Whereas with independent investigation of truth, which > > > Baha'u'llah so brilliantly condones, there are no flaws to be disillusioned > > > with. > > > > > > > In Young Goodman Brown, Hawthorne perceived it long ago: "Evil is the Nature > > of Mankind." I also recall Ecclessiates: "The heart of the sons of men is > > full of evil." > > > > > If one needs a good subject for a fireside or a deepening, I strongly > > > recommend we deepen each other on whatever it takes to psychologically break > > > whatever it is that compels us to play such roles. > > > > In Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha says of evil, it "continues and endures." > > Not at all an upbeat modern concept full of psychological hope. > > > > >"I have sworn eternal hostility to all forms of Tyranny against the minds > > >of man." - Thomas Jefferson > > > > >Maybe that's why the U.S. is the cradle of the Faith. What other countries > > >are founded on such principles? > > > > You make me think of James Madison in the Federalist Papers: "I never expect > > to see a perfect thing from imperfect man." An exceedingly Western, Christian, > > American notion, though all the great religions have a sense of the limitations > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > and obedience. > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan, USA > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 17:25:32 -0500 From: <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611091538.IAA03876@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > Please reformat and delete personal reference to moderators and > blanket attacks against groups and I would be happy to post > your remarks, > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com Dear Richard: Let me make sure I understand this: Moderators, like Hitler and other fascists, are above all criticism. The Kitab-i-Oppression says so. I spelled out "SOME" though I believe the context, as well as reason, implies it. > > > Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 07:58:27 -0500 > > From: <@moa.net> > > Organization: > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community > > References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > > > > > I am returningthis to you for editting. [sic] I cannot allow the blanket > > > statements: > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > > > especially in this regard. > > > > > > and > > > > > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > > > and obedience. > > > > > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > > > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > > > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > > > general or backed up by fact. > > > > > > Thank you for participating, > > > > > > Dick Detweiler > > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611092303.QAA00271@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I am sorry if you have a problem with moderated newsgroups. "Problem" is a derogatory characterization of my position. What I disaprove of is CENSORED newsgroups. In my last posting, I apparently hurt your feelings. But if > you would like to take part in the discussion on this groups, you need > to make sure your submittals meet the charter of the group. I am > enclosing a copy of it for your reference. Please keep it in mind > while reviewing the post in question and my comments. Again, when > it is free of personal attacks [you?] and negative comments about a whole > group of people which could find them offensive, [I qualified the obvious, i.e., what ought to go without saying.] I would be happy > to post it. My reformatting request had to do with getting rid of > the '>'s that have build up over the course of our exchange. I'm resending it then. > > Let me also reiterate that negative comments about the Faith are fine > on the newsgroup as long as they meet the charter. If you would like > to make a point that Iranian culture tends towards orthodoxy and that > that may impact the way some individuals act, that's alright. [sic] Just > make sure the comments meet the charter. [And God has enlightened you to make the decision?] If you want to say Baha'is > are a bunch of uptight, repressed, narrow-minded, religiously-conned, > non-intellectual, misguided saps, just make sure you say it with a > smile on your face, OK? This, Richard, is a generalization, one apparently you find permissible. I, however, will grant you what you refuse to grant me: The statement of an opinion without endless, absurd qualifications, IMHOs, etc. > > And one more thing, fascists like me like honey a lot better than > vinegar. If you take my meaning... > You're abusing your power. All fascists do/did. Threats stultify the exchange of ideas as much as censorship. > Your jack-booted, brown-shirted moderator friend, You're trying to turn into a joke a very serious issue. > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > > CHARTER FOR THE SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI NEWSGROUP > ============================================== I don't disagree with any of this nor did my original post. From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611101525.IAA23650@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > The following comments - as personal attacks which have no place on > this newsgroup - need to be removed before this will be submitted to > the newsgroup: > These do not constitute personal attacks but exposures of your undue interference in the content on my postings. I can understand you would prefer no one else should know about the issue. In my opinion, you're violating my constitutional freedom as an American citizen and my privilege as a Baha'i to express my conscience candidly. In both of these passages, I am taking issue with the heavy-handed editorial practice that you seem to believe is justifiable. I trust the spark of truth enough to manifest itself to allow others to speak their minds. That, to me, is a Baha'i principle, sorely neglected in your handling of my post. I believe it is legitimate use of the newsgroup to discuss the moderators' procedures for manipulating discussion. > > especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the best recent > > evidence of this in my experience is the censoring of this posting > > the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or non-Reformation culture, Iran > > has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. IMHO, this cultural > > predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?] > > and > > > [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to point outthat > > Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, does not > > value the free exchange of ideas.] > > Strike these and incorporate your parenthetical comments into the main body > of your post and I would be happy to post this to the newsgroup. > Your request to strike these is so as not to draw attention to your flawed handling of my posting. You're now merely trying to protect yourself from the possible censure you have earned. I'm not out to get YOU. Don't get paranoid. It's policy that permits ANY moderator to do what you have that concerns me. I believe that policy, in context, is worthy of discussion, indeed, essential. Your request to include my parenthetical comments constitutes another request to obscure further the real issue. Your attempt to protect yourself at the cost of silencing me. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA >From - Thu Nov 14 06:37:42 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.44) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:21:48 -0500 Message-ID: <3289BEEC.27DF@moa.net> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:28:28 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Haukness CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Another excellent example, apparently, of the abuse of your laughable little powers as a "moderator." You're interfering too much in the CONTENT of the message. John Haukness wrote: > > Dear Rick: After reviewing my message I find my tone and objectivity, is > quite more temperate and reserved than many other posts. I find > soc.religion's moderating policy to lean towards the left ideology. > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Rick Boatright wrote: > > > Dear John, (and copied to Frederick) > > > > I have already asked Frederick to decrease the quote in the message > > he sent to the newsgroup and to which you are replying. Could we, > > perhaps let you two continue this in private email, or perhaps you > > both would like to prepare new summeries of your positions for the > > newsgroup? These messages with their extremely lenthy quoted > > context violate the signal-to-noise ratio that the newsgroup > > generally strives for. > > > > Rick Boatright > > co-moderator > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:18:02 -0600 (CST) > > From: John Haukness > > To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Cc: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought > > > > > > > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > John Haukness wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Friends: One can see me as anti-whatever they want. The writings of > > > > the Guardian make it clear to me that the american separation of Church > > > > and state is based on fear and will fade away. > > > > > > It's based on fear of the harsh realities of historical experience--often > > > bloody. The Guardian is more nuanced. > > > > And now we live in the Day that will not be followed by nite! Also, we > > as much historical episodes of bood baths as a result of secular > > behaviors so do you want also to separate the secular from the > > secular based on using the same logic? have> > As far as equating > > > > Religion and state as one, being common anti intellectual sentiment, I am > > > > familiar with a long list of Baha'i's arguing this, many who have > > > > published far more than I have- I wish people would start studying Shoghi > > > > Effendi with an open mind, and Abdul Baha's statements on education. > > > > > > > > Of course my friends William and John Hatcher have put this issue to > > > > rest, safe ground, as with their publishing record, it is hard to call > > > > them anti-intellectual. From Shoghi Effendi: "As the Baha'i > > > > Administrative Order rapidly expands throughout the world it behooves > > > > everyone associated with it to familiarize himself with its principles > > > > to understand its import and to put its precepts into practice. The > > > > divinely ordained institutions of the Local Spriityal Assembly operates > > > > at the first levels of human society and is the basic administrative unit > > > > of Bahaullah's World Order." So how are you going to separate religion > > > > from Bahaullah's World Order, an Order, Bahaullah has placed the state in? > > > > > > > > > > I made no such suggestion. > > > The suggestion of your post was that Western secularism's separation > > of church and state was good, I assummed you were applying that it still > > is necessary. > > > > > > > > > Well, John, you sure know how to ignore unpleasant facts and dispense with > > > 400 years of religious and social history triumphantly. > > > As I have said, there is no conclusive evidence that the separation of > > church and state have provided the security you are attributing, for > > the>past 400 years there are as many wars, forced famines and the like > > among church against church and state against state, Likewise being > > ignored are all the successful ventures of cooperation the past 400 > > years of religion and state; but regardless, that was then and now > > is now. What stikes me, is that with keen insight, (I would shure like > > to hear from the readers who already have noticed the following) one > > can begin to see the faint glimmers, that secular society and religious > > society are beginning to come upon, what the Hatcher's so elequantly > > wrote about, that religion is inseparable from science, they are married > > interwoven in the foundation. (I am not saying there are not appropriate > > manmade separations, in man's need for efficiency and specialization > > one needs to make artificial separations all the time, but if you look > > at Shoghi Effendi's writings on the Assemblies and Houses of Justice, > > and Abdul Baha's on schools, you can clearly see, that at the foundation > > level, religion and state are complimentary, and that the Local House of > > Justice, and Baha'i School are the foundation institutions of the New > > World Order state. > > All the best! > > > > > > > Your post seems to me to be ladened with the anti-intellectualism that > > > > > has become characteristic of the thinking of many Baha'is. Your > > > > > conclusions don't appear to me to be supported by the Baha'i Writings. > > > > > > > > > > Given modern religious history, since the 1600s really, Western > > > > > secularism has quite rightly that the separation of religion from > > > > > the state is in everyone's best interest. > > > > > > > > > > The Baha'i Faith has yet sufficiently to prove otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: Frederick Glaysher <@MOA.net> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:13:19 -0600 Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: srb-mods@bcca.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.31) X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Frederick, A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment this for private email. Rick Boatright co-moderator soc.religion.bahai > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > To: karl1971@aol.com > Cc: @MOA.net > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > [clip] > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > make love, not war. > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > or her life. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > daughter-in-law. > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > loathsome addiction. > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > -- Karl > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > veins.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:07:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171601.KAA08931@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the > newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, > but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the > newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation > that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment > this for private email. > > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > You "suspect" incorrectly. I certainly intended for my message to be posted. I'd appreciate if you'd act as a moderator and not a censor. I find you're interfering in my communication offensive. Post it. >From - Tue Nov 19 04:56:35 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.39) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:02:27 -0500 Message-ID: <32905FF7.25F8@moa.net> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:09:11 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171607.JAA22964@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Not suitable for the group. Tell hi mto take it to e-mail. > > Dick D. > Dick, I mean this in all seriousness. You're a fascist pig. I'd say that to your face, fellow.... > > From news@news2.acs.oakland.edu Sun Nov 17 07:43:51 1996 > > Received: from bcca.org (root@bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) by primenet.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id HAA12476 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 1 > > Received: from relay6.UU.NET by bcca.org with smtp > > (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vP8Rl-0008esC; Sun, 17 Nov 96 09:43 EST > > Received: from news2.acs.oakland.edu by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP > > (peer crosschecked as: news2.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.152]) > > id QQbqfq06145; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:44 -0500 (EST) > > Received: (from news@localhost) by news2.acs.oakland.edu (8.7.6/8.7.4) id JAA19072; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:51 -0500 > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-29.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 53 > > Message-ID: <328F24FC.253@moa.net> > > References: <"uiWV9.A.DUF.dSkjy"@bounty> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > [clip] > > > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > > make love, not war. > > > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > > or her life. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > > daughter-in-law. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > > loathsome addiction. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > > > -- Karl > > > > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > > veins.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA --------------94CC9B2307-- From - Sun Feb 09 10:18:58 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.57) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:07:58 -0500 Message-ID: <32FDE9F3.5C37@moa.net> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 10:14:59 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #1-9.txt References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------496327692850" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 31471 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------496327692850 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Censored messages to soc.religion.bahai: plain text. --------------496327692850 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="srb1-9.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="srb1-9.txt" >From - Thu Nov 07 16:39:58 1996 Message-ID: <3282572E.2005@moa.net> Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 16:39:58 -0500 From: <@moa.net> Organization: X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Friend, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I am returningthis to you for editting. I cannot allow the blanket > statements: I refuse to edit my post in any way whatsoever. Your role as a moderator is not to be a fascist and stunt the serious exchange of ideas. Incidentally, "editting" is spelt with one "t." > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > especially in this regard. > > and > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > and obedience. > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > general or backed up by fact. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-1.ouhub.moa.net > > From: <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: statement of principles part 1 > > Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 11:08:44 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 87 > > Message-ID: <3282098C.31E@moa.net> > > References: <55sp6p$q76@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Personally, over the years I've been incredibly disillusioned with the Bahai > > > Community. I was brainwashed to believe it meant a lot of things it > > > doesn't. To, illustrate, I can still remember going to a youth deepening > > > when I was 17 and hearing this highly respected fiery lipped ex-radical > > > ominously railing to us guys about "locker room talk" --- basically in her > > > war like ways she was trying to instill a sense of shame for thinking > > > unchaste thoughts ---- which was good in a sense ---- but believe me, the way > > > she worded herself was absolute condescending nonsense. She cleverly made it > > > sound like it was a terrible crime to get horny. --- The point being, at the > > > time, being a na ve kid, I took her way too seriously. > > > > > > > Karl, people are evil and twist and debase every political and religious form to > > their own purposes. I've witnessed this same kind of thing in the Baha'i Faith > > many, many times. Who, if they have even a modicum of honesty and perspicacity, > > hasn't? > > > > > As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > "Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > > > > > Many people are all too willing to ASSUME these roles--through election or > > otherwise makes little difference. Tainted wine in new vessels. > > > > > > > > Moreover, it is precisely this sense of distrust for people in an > > > authoritative position such as priests, that in my opinion, strikes a nerve > > > in America's character. ---- If one needs good tactics for mass enrollments > > > in the U.S., my suggestion is that we start with those aspects of the Faith > > > that appeal to those who have good reasons to distrust authority. After all, > > > isn't this distrust a tradition in this country? > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > especially in this regard. > > > > > If one needs a reason to see why its so easy for people not to be Bahais, or > > > for that matter, why it's so easy to disobey the Laws of God, look no further > > > than members of the influential Bahai Community playing surrogate priests to > > > those foolish enough to play surrogate parish ----- Which has the inevitable > > > effect of denying what's a part of life: what's worth respecting, what's > > > worth being ashamed of, and what's worth forgiving. > > > > > > > You, sir, have an Antinomian mind; you should OBEY!!!! > > > > > These roles have this effect because sooner or later a parish will wonder if > > > the priest is worth putting on a pedestal. As such, it will eventually see > > > the natural flaws in his character and not take a damn thing he says > > > seriously. Whereas with independent investigation of truth, which > > > Baha'u'llah so brilliantly condones, there are no flaws to be disillusioned > > > with. > > > > > > > In Young Goodman Brown, Hawthorne perceived it long ago: "Evil is the Nature > > of Mankind." I also recall Ecclessiates: "The heart of the sons of men is > > full of evil." > > > > > If one needs a good subject for a fireside or a deepening, I strongly > > > recommend we deepen each other on whatever it takes to psychologically break > > > whatever it is that compels us to play such roles. > > > > In Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha says of evil, it "continues and endures." > > Not at all an upbeat modern concept full of psychological hope. > > > > >"I have sworn eternal hostility to all forms of Tyranny against the minds > > >of man." - Thomas Jefferson > > > > >Maybe that's why the U.S. is the cradle of the Faith. What other countries > > >are founded on such principles? > > > > You make me think of James Madison in the Federalist Papers: "I never expect > > to see a perfect thing from imperfect man." An exceedingly Western, Christian, > > American notion, though all the great religions have a sense of the limitations > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > and obedience. > > > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan, USA > > > > ================ End submitted post =========================== Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 17:25:32 -0500 From: <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611091538.IAA03876@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > Please reformat and delete personal reference to moderators and > blanket attacks against groups and I would be happy to post > your remarks, > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com Dear Richard: Let me make sure I understand this: Moderators, like Hitler and other fascists, are above all criticism. The Kitab-i-Oppression says so. I spelled out "SOME" though I believe the context, as well as reason, implies it. > > > Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 07:58:27 -0500 > > From: <@moa.net> > > Organization: > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community > > References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > > > > > I am returningthis to you for editting. [sic] I cannot allow the blanket > > > statements: > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > > > especially in this regard. > > > > > > and > > > > > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > > > and obedience. > > > > > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > > > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > > > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > > > general or backed up by fact. > > > > > > Thank you for participating, > > > > > > Dick Detweiler > > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611092303.QAA00271@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I am sorry if you have a problem with moderated newsgroups. "Problem" is a derogatory characterization of my position. What I disaprove of is CENSORED newsgroups. In my last posting, I apparently hurt your feelings. But if > you would like to take part in the discussion on this groups, you need > to make sure your submittals meet the charter of the group. I am > enclosing a copy of it for your reference. Please keep it in mind > while reviewing the post in question and my comments. Again, when > it is free of personal attacks [you?] and negative comments about a whole > group of people which could find them offensive, [I qualified the obvious, i.e., what ought to go without saying.] I would be happy > to post it. My reformatting request had to do with getting rid of > the '>'s that have build up over the course of our exchange. I'm resending it then. > > Let me also reiterate that negative comments about the Faith are fine > on the newsgroup as long as they meet the charter. If you would like > to make a point that Iranian culture tends towards orthodoxy and that > that may impact the way some individuals act, that's alright. [sic] Just > make sure the comments meet the charter. [And God has enlightened you to make the decision?] If you want to say Baha'is > are a bunch of uptight, repressed, narrow-minded, religiously-conned, > non-intellectual, misguided saps, just make sure you say it with a > smile on your face, OK? This, Richard, is a generalization, one apparently you find permissible. I, however, will grant you what you refuse to grant me: The statement of an opinion without endless, absurd qualifications, IMHOs, etc. > > And one more thing, fascists like me like honey a lot better than > vinegar. If you take my meaning... > You're abusing your power. All fascists do/did. Threats stultify the exchange of ideas as much as censorship. > Your jack-booted, brown-shirted moderator friend, You're trying to turn into a joke a very serious issue. > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > > CHARTER FOR THE SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI NEWSGROUP > ============================================== I don't disagree with any of this nor did my original post. From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611101525.IAA23650@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > The following comments - as personal attacks which have no place on > this newsgroup - need to be removed before this will be submitted to > the newsgroup: > These do not constitute personal attacks but exposures of your undue interference in the content on my postings. I can understand you would prefer no one else should know about the issue. In my opinion, you're violating my constitutional freedom as an American citizen and my privilege as a Baha'i to express my conscience candidly. In both of these passages, I am taking issue with the heavy-handed editorial practice that you seem to believe is justifiable. I trust the spark of truth enough to manifest itself to allow others to speak their minds. That, to me, is a Baha'i principle, sorely neglected in your handling of my post. I believe it is legitimate use of the newsgroup to discuss the moderators' procedures for manipulating discussion. > > especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the best recent > > evidence of this in my experience is the censoring of this posting > > the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or non-Reformation culture, Iran > > has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. IMHO, this cultural > > predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?] > > and > > > [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to point outthat > > Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, does not > > value the free exchange of ideas.] > > Strike these and incorporate your parenthetical comments into the main body > of your post and I would be happy to post this to the newsgroup. > Your request to strike these is so as not to draw attention to your flawed handling of my posting. You're now merely trying to protect yourself from the possible censure you have earned. I'm not out to get YOU. Don't get paranoid. It's policy that permits ANY moderator to do what you have that concerns me. I believe that policy, in context, is worthy of discussion, indeed, essential. Your request to include my parenthetical comments constitutes another request to obscure further the real issue. Your attempt to protect yourself at the cost of silencing me. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA >From - Thu Nov 14 06:37:42 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.44) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:21:48 -0500 Message-ID: <3289BEEC.27DF@moa.net> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:28:28 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Haukness CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Another excellent example, apparently, of the abuse of your laughable little powers as a "moderator." You're interfering too much in the CONTENT of the message. John Haukness wrote: > > Dear Rick: After reviewing my message I find my tone and objectivity, is > quite more temperate and reserved than many other posts. I find > soc.religion's moderating policy to lean towards the left ideology. > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Rick Boatright wrote: > > > Dear John, (and copied to Frederick) > > > > I have already asked Frederick to decrease the quote in the message > > he sent to the newsgroup and to which you are replying. Could we, > > perhaps let you two continue this in private email, or perhaps you > > both would like to prepare new summeries of your positions for the > > newsgroup? These messages with their extremely lenthy quoted > > context violate the signal-to-noise ratio that the newsgroup > > generally strives for. > > > > Rick Boatright > > co-moderator > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:18:02 -0600 (CST) > > From: John Haukness > > To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Cc: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought > > > > > > > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > John Haukness wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Friends: One can see me as anti-whatever they want. The writings of > > > > the Guardian make it clear to me that the american separation of Church > > > > and state is based on fear and will fade away. > > > > > > It's based on fear of the harsh realities of historical experience--often > > > bloody. The Guardian is more nuanced. > > > > And now we live in the Day that will not be followed by nite! Also, we > > as much historical episodes of bood baths as a result of secular > > behaviors so do you want also to separate the secular from the > > secular based on using the same logic? have> > As far as equating > > > > Religion and state as one, being common anti intellectual sentiment, I am > > > > familiar with a long list of Baha'i's arguing this, many who have > > > > published far more than I have- I wish people would start studying Shoghi > > > > Effendi with an open mind, and Abdul Baha's statements on education. > > > > > > > > Of course my friends William and John Hatcher have put this issue to > > > > rest, safe ground, as with their publishing record, it is hard to call > > > > them anti-intellectual. From Shoghi Effendi: "As the Baha'i > > > > Administrative Order rapidly expands throughout the world it behooves > > > > everyone associated with it to familiarize himself with its principles > > > > to understand its import and to put its precepts into practice. The > > > > divinely ordained institutions of the Local Spriityal Assembly operates > > > > at the first levels of human society and is the basic administrative unit > > > > of Bahaullah's World Order." So how are you going to separate religion > > > > from Bahaullah's World Order, an Order, Bahaullah has placed the state in? > > > > > > > > > > I made no such suggestion. > > > The suggestion of your post was that Western secularism's separation > > of church and state was good, I assummed you were applying that it still > > is necessary. > > > > > > > > > Well, John, you sure know how to ignore unpleasant facts and dispense with > > > 400 years of religious and social history triumphantly. > > > As I have said, there is no conclusive evidence that the separation of > > church and state have provided the security you are attributing, for > > the>past 400 years there are as many wars, forced famines and the like > > among church against church and state against state, Likewise being > > ignored are all the successful ventures of cooperation the past 400 > > years of religion and state; but regardless, that was then and now > > is now. What stikes me, is that with keen insight, (I would shure like > > to hear from the readers who already have noticed the following) one > > can begin to see the faint glimmers, that secular society and religious > > society are beginning to come upon, what the Hatcher's so elequantly > > wrote about, that religion is inseparable from science, they are married > > interwoven in the foundation. (I am not saying there are not appropriate > > manmade separations, in man's need for efficiency and specialization > > one needs to make artificial separations all the time, but if you look > > at Shoghi Effendi's writings on the Assemblies and Houses of Justice, > > and Abdul Baha's on schools, you can clearly see, that at the foundation > > level, religion and state are complimentary, and that the Local House of > > Justice, and Baha'i School are the foundation institutions of the New > > World Order state. > > All the best! > > > > > > > Your post seems to me to be ladened with the anti-intellectualism that > > > > > has become characteristic of the thinking of many Baha'is. Your > > > > > conclusions don't appear to me to be supported by the Baha'i Writings. > > > > > > > > > > Given modern religious history, since the 1600s really, Western > > > > > secularism has quite rightly that the separation of religion from > > > > > the state is in everyone's best interest. > > > > > > > > > > The Baha'i Faith has yet sufficiently to prove otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: Frederick Glaysher <@MOA.net> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:13:19 -0600 Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: srb-mods@bcca.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.31) X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Frederick, A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment this for private email. Rick Boatright co-moderator soc.religion.bahai > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > To: karl1971@aol.com > Cc: @MOA.net > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > [clip] > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > make love, not war. > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > or her life. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > daughter-in-law. > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > loathsome addiction. > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > -- Karl > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > veins.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:07:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171601.KAA08931@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the > newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, > but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the > newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation > that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment > this for private email. > > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > You "suspect" incorrectly. I certainly intended for my message to be posted. I'd appreciate if you'd act as a moderator and not a censor. I find you're interfering in my communication offensive. Post it. >From - Tue Nov 19 04:56:35 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.39) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:02:27 -0500 Message-ID: <32905FF7.25F8@moa.net> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:09:11 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171607.JAA22964@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Not suitable for the group. Tell hi mto take it to e-mail. > > Dick D. > Dick, I mean this in all seriousness. You're a fascist pig. I'd say that to your face, fellow.... > > From news@news2.acs.oakland.edu Sun Nov 17 07:43:51 1996 > > Received: from bcca.org (root@bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) by primenet.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id HAA12476 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 1 > > Received: from relay6.UU.NET by bcca.org with smtp > > (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vP8Rl-0008esC; Sun, 17 Nov 96 09:43 EST > > Received: from news2.acs.oakland.edu by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP > > (peer crosschecked as: news2.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.152]) > > id QQbqfq06145; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:44 -0500 (EST) > > Received: (from news@localhost) by news2.acs.oakland.edu (8.7.6/8.7.4) id JAA19072; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:51 -0500 > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-29.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 53 > > Message-ID: <328F24FC.253@moa.net> > > References: <"uiWV9.A.DUF.dSkjy"@bounty> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > [clip] > > > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > > make love, not war. > > > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > > or her life. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > > daughter-in-law. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > > loathsome addiction. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > > > -- Karl > > > > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > > veins.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA --------------496327692850-- From - Mon Feb 03 09:07:09 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.35) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 03 Feb 1997 08:12:53 -0500 Message-ID: <32F5E613.40AF@moa.net> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 08:20:19 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups To: Saman Ahmadi Subject: Censorship on S.R.Bahai References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1136 ubject: Re: RFD: talk.religion.bahai From: Saman Ahmadi Date: 1997/02/02 Message-Id: <32F4EA1D.2077@why.net> References: <853543959.13303@uunet.uu.net> <32E12A4B.10C2@wwnet.com> <5cu33o$n1r@nw101.infi.net> <854885248.12588@dejanews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-Ascii Organization: The Why? Network Mime-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: ahmadi@why.net Newsgroups: news.groups X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) @MOA.net wrote: > > I hope you'll reconsider. An UNMODERATED discussion group > on the Bahai Faith would provide a forum much needed and > not duplicate soc.religion.bahai, which is heavily censored, > in my opinion. I think it is only censored for tone and relavency - if you don't believe me, check out the current threads. -saman False. In my experience, it's censored for content as well. The current threads are meaningless in that regard and not at all evidence regarding past manipulation of postings anyway. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 03 18:13:32 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.185) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 03 Feb 1997 17:56:32 -0500 Message-ID: <32F66EDC.4082@moa.net> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 18:03:56 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: censored #10 References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> <32F5E613.40AF@moa.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------70082D0E313" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 3985 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------70082D0E313 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit #10 Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------70082D0E313 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; 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From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: censored #12 References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> <32F5E613.40AF@moa.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------76E14973561B" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 14992 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------76E14973561B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit #12 -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------76E14973561B Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="censored12.txt.wpd" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="censored12.txt.wpd" /1dQQ4wCAAABCgIBAAAAAgUAAAB0KQAAAAIAAOwTCcea/IXUBiNV1KMDGobWM/ ALbomDdO9X /MgkaYd+/TUATfSO7ZHdACPMVPGTtWIfRnvFzFSImUnSPAaSqh32K8odAunes8q4D2pS3L 19 tGzhtCq3TkqdOxeDGlbucT17oBjMGqow0Na9yLUCiasDrMuxoMYkqrnuW0wsW2sRbjCua99 + JsFCZESQNLp7eHQiaFEK+E2EGYTbXW7i1UFqKspAXNw+VXxaXNRkf8ahwhHDon0r2cSi 09Oy 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<32F66F56.6468@moa.net> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 18:05:58 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: censored #13 References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> <32F5E613.40AF@moa.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------36C8414555D2" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 9640 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------36C8414555D2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit #13 -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------36C8414555D2 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="censored13.txt.wpd" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="censored13.txt.wpd" /1dQQ4wCAAABCgIBAAAAAgUAAAAzGgAAAAIAAJQuwH8DGdbnMaDy1n1zah7M1k4m GQEIIhMs DpSMy6gxn8YG543R8rCwCJUj3J20P5LQuxtnj6lE4qO8fa/ReQNEXtM+OCmFavLI+cXZamtt IlfTuxZ22Tl/PmoLRV4s7eLvhaGFY1Zq6GhA7SMq4niEN09dECb8jBEYRGBZNjK/fmKCeQ7 C 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atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 03 Feb 1997 18:02:23 -0500 Message-ID: <32F67037.2229@moa.net> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 18:09:44 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: censored #18 References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> <32F5E613.40AF@moa.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E2D2DC07A27" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6915 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E2D2DC07A27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit #18 -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------E2D2DC07A27 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="censored18.txt.wpd" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="censored18.txt.wpd" /1dQQ4wCAAABCgIBAAAAAgUAAAByEgAAAAIAAM8Wp4cyon1tuULjQ6VfNTgZ8wH/4 Vhnvglr 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news.groups Subject: censored #19 References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> <32F5E613.40AF@moa.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2BF15D7A177F" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 8660 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2BF15D7A177F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit #19 Enough? I could go on but why bother? Read it all if you want. Yes, I'm human and not without fault.... But I believe there is clear evidence of censorship on soc.religion.bahai for the dispassionate reader.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------2BF15D7A177F Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="censored19.txt.wpd" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="censored19.txt.wpd" /1dQQ4wCAAABCgIBAAAAAgUAAADIFgAAAAIAAN0w+jbmChVMJYhjmFNfToNCHJM DDP3X03VE u+6i9EANetXFTL+Ce9PZTfu9QkC30i6NIg8iqeuoln5hVjY64TsvEwhkMpj913XReLmPtKsE b8lWyIsgN+t8lHumDzazIx0gxpAhMWtXfabK6eqecIWo+UUh1Phu6d88MYKmwNMezONBes Zb qOYpH/n2NnjkBB755W/HYe+BfUFi38jS+Dyn13anzaEJbLo2eCO67jmpwMzpO2HpVsV/dGcj RK3bb/eg5uvGv0QxV4KOC1/5+jE/INZeEbZHwiF9q0wI3g5m2RC45J7hfRQaJlc4gf6YSK6b LZ0oclfzVVwaPTJtVv3nUqLjkHYqRRngXvoee7m8VdRCBdetQ7HQEfXaSnHSOBJeSyeUFh0 i VMijjHvqlUyzJJ5apdSeRP7yFgH0pagaMyLSyl+FE0vMoIgE/hEvebRuwldaGP1U5FNQ329Q rXq0HPaKbwCsHAFi2JymZm4xShH+7p/8tvIDYV4ic0OQMW3N3JwT4E7Q22Bjkfq/nQgo07f N 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(Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: CENSORED--2--4--97 References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> <32F5E613.40AF@moa.net> <32F670D4.316E@moa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 3736 Subject: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:06:16 +0000 From: smsmith@mail.cybertrails.com To: @moa.net CC: srb-mods@bcca.org Mr. Glaysher, Again, I am requesting that you cut down on the included text. Also, could you reword your statement "largely appalled at the low intellictual level and crude journalism" to something less likely to agitate others. While this is your opinion, those who wrote those materials or those who may have read same and had higher opinions, may feel insulted by your choice of wording. Thank you. Sincerely, S. Michele Smith co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai [repond to: srb-mods@bcca.org] > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > From: FG <@moa.net> > Subject: Re: Administrative and Spiritual Expulsion > Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:01:00 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Reply-to: @moa.net > To: SManeck@berry.edu > Susan Maneck wrote: > > > > On Feb. 1 I had written: > > > > > The "Dialogue" affair was very complicated. The National Spiritual > > > Assembly was disturbed by the editorial line of that magazine, > > > which they apparently saw as muckraking, but the Universal House of > > > Justice had affirmed it's right to exist. However, the magazine was > > > scrutinized very carefully. At one point an article proposing > > > certain changes in the Baha'i electorial system was written and sent > > > out to a number of people apparently with the intention of getting > > > their feedback prior to publication. The article was entitled "A > > > Modest Proposal." (Aa rather mischievous title to anyone who knows > > > their British and Irish history.) As it happened some delegates to > > > the National Convention had received copies. The NSA believed that > > > the people behind Dialogue were somehow using this article for > > > electioneering purposes. > > > > I have since been in contact with the former editor of Dialogue who > > assures me that only two delegates received a copy of "A Modest > > Proposal." These two delegates were served on the > > editorial board of Dialogue and it was in that capacity that the > > copies were sent for their review. Apparently the National Spritiual > > Assembly got the mistaken impression that "dozens and dozens" of > > copies of this had been distributed to delegates prior to the > > National Convention. As I had attempted to convey in my original > > posting I do not think there is any reason to believe that anyone on > > the Dialogue staff was engaging in electioneering of any sort. I > > apologize if this post might have led anyone to think that this was > > the case. As you can see there have been a long series of terrible > > misunderstandings which led to unfoldment of these sorry events, many > > of which are difficult to untangle now. My hope is that we will all > > set aside our suspicions toward everyone involved on both sides of > > this issue for the sake of our love for Baha'u'llah and recognize > > that we all seek to serve Him in the best way we can. > > > > Susan > > It doesn't change the fact that Dialogue was suppressed.... I was > a subscriber, though largely appalled at the low intellectual level > and crude journalism, and felt they were at least making attempts > to develop some kind of thoughtful discussion in the Bahai Faith. > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 03 18:13:15 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.185) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 03 Feb 1997 17:53:01 -0500 Message-ID: <32F66E07.2697@moa.net> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 18:00:23 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: censored #4 References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> <32F5E613.40AF@moa.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------17F67AC63363" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5533 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------17F67AC63363 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 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X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 60 #8 -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 03 18:13:28 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.185) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 03 Feb 1997 17:55:53 -0500 Message-ID: <32F66EB0.202A@moa.net> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 18:03:12 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: censored #9 References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> <32F5E613.40AF@moa.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6B4155E26695" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 7849 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6B4155E26695 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit #9 -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------6B4155E26695 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="censored9.txt.wpd" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: 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news.groups Subject: censored excerpt #3 References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> <32F5E613.40AF@moa.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------49E576FB3C3B" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5377 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------49E576FB3C3B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit excerpt #3 -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------49E576FB3C3B Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="censored3.txt.wpd" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="censored3.txt.wpd" /1dQQ4wCAAABCgIBAAAAAgUAAAAKDgAAAAIAANPgg+0qFk0Ap299Y0p8BSe6yccAJ GCNkCl9 6+VTLwZJvqb3wI/gkDaxRwIyZU2YXCsmvcdWtI8IuPbIgBcuY1xI8PaskH2ydlG3WIU2SpIA fmHDbQoDpFtDyMYv+K0gOJ7fJz3vK8uUurOb/64D2rQyv8mfquycq8wtbMSra8E5ClLzWYV o FgdSbggQXDNeouQ16rGiBx+zxl4kH7Bpn2eYB1trpHCXz8g8jVVhUEhRVzFeiWORgTJf5Os1 Gke1LDvS+iQrJUR1Y7N0A/4a6PBwGDtuXVsAnv5gf+q8muYh6Dga6nAYTiXq7PIHhnwwHL xl 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Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups CC: rdetweil@primenet.com, smaneck@berry.edu Subject: SR.Bahai censored 2-13-97: Maneck References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> <32F5E613.40AF@moa.net> <32F66DCB.26A5@moa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 8533 No censorship on SRB? It's only me? Read all of this and correct me if I'm wrong.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA ----------------------------------------- Subject: Re: New Group Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 05:21:11 -0700 (MST) From: "Richard C. Detweiler" To: @moa.net CC: srb-mods@bcca.org Dear Fred, By now you know what is and is not acceptable discourse for the newsgroup. I am returning this to you for editting. Once again I will remind you that you are free to disagree with others on the newsgroup but it must be done in a respectful manner. You may post this anywhere else you like, but it will not be posted in this form on soc.religion.bahai. Dick Detweiler co-fascist, soc.religion.bahai > From: FG <@moa.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: Re: New Group > Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:17:37 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 186 > Message-ID: <33030661.2BD3@moa.net> > References: <5dtoc2$iis@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > Reply-To: @moa.net > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) > To: Susan Maneck > Content-Length: 6443 > > Susan Maneck wrote: > > > > Frederick writes: > > > > > How about the negative consequences of the censored and manipulated > > > forum of soc.religion.bahai? Look on news.groups for a one Susan Maneck's > > > censored messages.... > > > > Since you raise this issue, and placed my posting there without my > > consent, let me discuss what happened between myself and the > > moderators. > > > > Because you're a two-faced coward, Susan. One minute opposed to > censorship, the next supporting it.... > > > There was a message which one of the > > moderators returned to me after three days informing me that > > they did not intend to post it. > > "Did not intend to post it"..... > > I protested and asked > > them to reconsider their decision.. > > > > When I did not hear from them after a day I > > mistakenly assumed they were ignoring my request and therefore posted > > this instance of "censorship" on Talisman, forwarding copies to each > > of the moderators. I was conerned that the moderators might be > > using their position to restrict the free-flow of information. > > Why would you think that? > > This > > turned out not to be the case. > > > > Two of the moderators responding on Talisman > > and what followed was a very fruitful consultation. I discovered that > > the moderator in question was new at the job and had been having > > 'technical difficulties' which had prevented responses and posting > > from being done in a timely fashion. The posting I made was rejected > > for reasons of redundancy because the moderators were planning to > > post something from Steve Scholl which gave a first hand account of > > the events in question. Seeing that, I withdrew the bulk of my post. > > > > Yours is not redundant. It adds weight to the discussion. > > [clip] > > > A moderator: > > > > clip > > > > > A moderator: > > > > > > > > The anger? Mine? I'm not angry. I'm tired. Sorry. Sometimes > > > > that doesn't come out clear in my writing. > > > > ME: > > > > > I wasn't referring to your anger. I meant those longstanding Baha'is > > (snip) > > > who threaten to unsubscribe if we keep asking too many uncomfortable > > > issues. These are the things that make the threads long and angry. > > > > > And so we should ask them, to keep them happy, living in their vague, > idealistic dream world.... > > > > > Then another moderator made this magnificent post that won the hearts > > of all the Talismanians: > > > > "Right. And here is my personal view. IMO, one of the beauties of > > the newsgroup is that it DOES force these out into the open where > > they can be dealt with. And these threads will remain long and angry > > until not only the Baha'is you are talking about but ALL the Baha'is > > learn to truly consult. Forget our preconceived notions, really > > listen, try to put ourselves in each others shoes, respect our > > differing opinions, and look for that spark of truth that > > `Abdu'l-Baha talked about that is always out there but hidden behind > > everyone's egos and hidden agendas. That sure would make our lives > > as moderators a lot easier." > > > > In the moderators' practice, it's more like smother the spark of > truth, stamped it out.... > > > In my opinion this is precisely what SRB should be about. Let > > me to also share with you my personal response to the moderators > > after our consultation on Talisman was finished: > > > > Vague, meaningless flourish toward reform? > > > > Dear *** and ****, > > > > > > (snip)clip > > > Only by consulting with the > > > community at large without recrimination can we hope to resolve some > > > of our difficulties. > > > > > > Thank you for your patience and understanding and please keep us in > > > your prayers. > > > > > > love, Susan > > > > For the record, let me say I am more than satisfied with the way in > > which SRB is being moderated. Do they make mistakes? > > Now you support the fascists.... What have they promised you? A > castle in Bavaria? > > Of course, and > > I've made a few myself :-) But they are not "spiking" post, nor are > > the censoring messages in order to stop the free-flow of information > > or views, ( with the possible exception of not allowing Remeyites to > > express their opinions on issues related to the Covenant.) What they > > are attempting to do is prevent personal attacks, intervene > > in flamewars, and limit the amount of endless > > repitition on a single topic. > > > > Now they're holy saints.... > > > To my comment: > > > > > We do *not* have a > > > > duty to control the way others choose to present it. > > > > I personally don't think such a Baha'i forum could > > > > successfully operate under the conditions Fred wants because there > > > > already are Baha'i forums such as Talisman II in which the free > > > > expression of ideas can be made so long as personal attacks are > > > > avoided. > > > > Frederick wrote: > > > > > > Talisman is in effect censored too. They have there own pet little > > > ideas. The listserv of freedom and liberalism: a fascist bunch of > > > academics, IMHO. And I am one who spent fourteen years of his life > > > in that increasingly fascist milieu.... > > > > Talisman II is an unmoderated list serv. It has few rules, but one of > > them is to avoid personal attacks. An individual recently > > could not live within those guidelines. He was violently offensive > > and succeeded in alienating all sides, on a list which justly has the > > reputation of being tumultuous. The members of the list were > > virtually unanimous in asking that he be unsubscribed. > > And that's not censorship. THEY'RE still the listserv of light and > truth.... "Violently offensive": what shameless, deceitful > characterization.... > > Yes, Fred, I > > suppose you have the right to say whatever you wish. *We* have the > > right not to be your dumping ground. If anyone wishes to be "dumped > > on" and engage in the kind of endless flame wars which Frederick > > seems to equate with free speech you are welcome to join his list. I > > certainly intend to do nothing to block its formation. > > > > Same old rhetoric, Susan. I don't, incidentally, consider it my list. > That's the cute argument of others who permit their own kind of > "dumping." Like dumping one position and hoisting another when it > suits your moods or motives.... > > > This is not about censorship, it is about the common courtesy > > necessary for any fruitful consultation. > > > > False. It is about censorship, that of the moderators, which you've > experienced, and don't have the honesty apparently to confront. Why the > backpaddling now? > > > > Susan > > -- > love, > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Feb 03 18:13:01 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.185) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 03 Feb 1997 17:49:22 -0500 Message-ID: <32F66D1E.10B@moa.net> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 17:56:30 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: Censorship Excerpts #1 References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> <32F5E613.40AF@moa.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------70C521994D72" X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 11371 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------70C521994D72 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Excerpt #1 -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------70C521994D72 Content-Type: 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boundary="------------642A21E61E14" X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 4640 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------642A21E61E14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit #11 -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA --------------642A21E61E14 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="censored11.txt.wpd" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="censored11.txt.wpd" /1dQQ4wCAAABCgIBAAAAAgUAAADzCwAAAAIAADCjuLfS/thO5xu1/RVGjdioK4cmmbD txU4h CE7ii21QxDZiP8Mn9ZKF+L0GGtREVDTI0gxwNDs7KhAdXpKxh9TegG67rYehq0By2AR3v H4Q L1LGIatLocrsK5z2ZNCtXlmaAfzQe+t8rEQmZcJq0r21UDmNe9A1+EsViGNvQeg3BiYL55lP VzGt3u4iQT5eS6Vb+7k4Dfru7iK2f/1UwgwWf4Lunq+FGIOx5fshp9KWyUerKUTUto58ZbnS pEA39SUTQgBv4KpE6foKXbHEjlm+7TdtlJp7xwrF6ORBH4fep9BYnsOWZK4RkcnO8tin5sP3 xej+Gsva3rz5Z1wFrQl80diFp+APzcTlOJ7n+musjVammLZ3SC1AJbitvQXcEraRCsOQwaou NMd69gLwmRrH/YXKiFB40g9iBaGBOx2OmN+IbPS7ZzC5TuDtifJ2Tk1csn1+VjHD7aPVrOx Z 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<32F66C40.14B9@moa.net> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 17:52:48 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: Censorship Upload Mistake! References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> <32F5E613.40AF@moa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 197 Ooops! Clicked on the wrong file.... Perhaps more there than anyone would care to wade through.... I'll still upload brief excerpts -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Tue Feb 04 06:07:22 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.52) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Tue, 04 Feb 1997 05:38:59 -0500 Message-ID: <32F71383.C13@moa.net> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 05:46:27 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: CENSORED INDEX References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> <32F5E613.40AF@moa.net> <32F66C40.14B9@moa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 157 CENSORED#1--S.R.B is a 740k file. You might want to avoid that one. The others are brief excerpts. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Mon Jan 27 05:59:39 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.44) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:55:58 -0500 Message-ID: <32EBE2B6.1DD0@moa.net> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:03:18 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: T.r.bahai APOLOGIES! References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1874 I apologize if there's discussion on news.groups, soc.religion.bahai, and elsewhere without my response. My server is experiencing some kind of problem that's not passing the new posts to me. I can read all the messages I have forwarded or posted but nothing else. They tell me they're working on it! Sorry. In the mean time, go ahead email me directly and I'll post back. Subject: Re: Newsgroup error messages Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:17:35 -0500 (EST) From: Jeff Marraccini To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> A fix is in progress by the MOAnet core team. I am not involved in its implementation, but I'll ask if I can help. Thanks, Jeff On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > I keep getting an error message when I try to post to newsgroups on > MOA.net: > > A News (NNTP) error occurred: posting failed, sorry > > I'm working with Christopher Stone at the group-mentors for USEnet > at Princeton trying to get a RFD for a new newsgroup discussed and > voted on. This problem is preventing me from properly responding > to the discussion and half the time has run out for the 30 day > discussion period. Chris Stone has emailed me asking why I'm not > joining in all the discussion in news.groups, but when I use the > news browser to download from news.groups, I get only old messages, > my own, and a few new ones, not the responses he says should be > there. > > I thought the problem might have been Netscape 2.02, so I upgraded on > Saturday to Netscape Gold but it has not made any difference. That > seems to confirm it's a server problem or something. I'm using Windows > 95 too. > > Urgently, I ask for your suggestions? > > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > From - Sat Feb 01 16:57:38 1997 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.51) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 01 Feb 1997 13:23:48 -0500 Message-ID: <32F38BF2.2CB1@moa.net> Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 13:31:14 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> Reply-To: @moa.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: news.groups Subject: Re: T.r.b. APOLOGIES! FIXED References: <32E407DA.506@moa.net> <32EBE2B6.1DD0@moa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Content-Length: 427 I believe my system administrator has figured out the technical problem preventing me from reading others' messages. Only time will tell. I'm working on the questionaire for the CFV, and should send it back today or tomorrow. Email me directly if you have any comments you especially want included in it. Sorry for this technical glitch getting in the way. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA From - Sun Feb 09 08:20:43 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:32 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01084; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:11:05 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:11:04 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #11 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855491273.416@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:27:58 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 10083 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:26:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <"BYWGWC.A.PdB.pm0iy"@bounty> <328C806E.295C@moa.net> <32908412.2C44@oro.net> <3291A53E.78A1@moa.net> <3291CC64.9F@oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff wrote: > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > It > > > may be failing on my part if I don't try to correct > > > their view of me, but it is a far grosser failing if > > > I resent them for their views and let myself become > > > embittered by it. I won't change anything by lashing > > > out in anger, or by intentional alienation. Worst of all > > > if I separate myself from the entire Baha'i community > > > and Baha'u'allah because of these people, I'm only > > > doing myself a disservice. If they're really my enemies, > > > then my being a "weak sister" would be quite pleasing > > > to them. > > > > > > > You're a lovely soul. A more pious answer than I can muster. > > Piety has nothing to do with it. It's common sense. If we are > to unify, we must be unified. Unity can never be served by > anger or alienation. The only way to get rid of darkness is > to throw light on it. More darkness only conduces to, well... > more darkness. > > To my mind, after twenty years in the Baha'i Faith, the "unity" is a fraud, doesn't exist.... > > How will they deal with such things? What are the mechanisms? > > For "Evil is the Nature of Mankind." > > The mechanisms are those clearly laid down by Baha'u'llah, > Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. They involve a certain > giving up of self, consultation, respect, courtesy and > other attributes with which God has fully invested us. If these are the "mechanisms," they're insufficient. > I have served on assemblies for over 15 years. I've seen > this at work. Sometimes we need reminders, sometimes we > fail utterly, but the fact that we try is of paramount > importance and has great power. > > ""Evil is the Nature of Mankind?" Not according to > Baha'u'llah: > > "O Son of the Wondrous Vision! I have breathed upon thee > a breath of My own Spirit that thou mayest be My lover. > Why hast thou forsaken me and sought a beloved other > than Me?" > > "O Son of Spirit! Noble have I created thee, yet thou > hast abased thyself. Rise then, unto that for which > thou wast created." > > These passages and others make it clear that it is > our nature to be noble. Antinomy is presupposed. There is tragedy in Baha'u'llah's writings, tragedy minds like yours (I mean no insult), typically fail to understand. The other part is nurture. > We learn deceit and we teach it to others. We learn > hatred and we pass it along like a disease. > > > > Buddha said: Hatred does not cease by hatred, hatred ceases > > > by love. > > > > > > > Tell that to the Tibetans who have had their whole civilization > > wiped out.... > > They understand this better than anyone. What, after all, > nearly wiped out their civilization? Hatred and fear of what > was different and not controllable by the powers that would > be. > Even the Dali Lama has had second thoughts.... Much too late. > > They must. Let's be practical. What though when Assemblies self- > > righteously abuse their authority and persecute individuals? That > > can happen too, and then what? > > If a person feels he is being persecuted he has recourse to > the Auxiliary Board, another spiritual assembly, the National > Spiritual Assembly or even the House of Justice. Any and all > of these avenues of redress is open to the individual. Of > course, there is always the possibility that the individual's > perception that he's being "persecuted" is false. It's never > pleasant to be wrong about something, less pleasant to have > someone call your attention to it and ask that your behavior > change. I know this from personal experience. > > > > > As > > > an individual, I still had to treat the subject of consultation > > > with compassion. > > > > > > > A very dehumanizing phrase, Maya. It seems to me. This human tendency > > worries me. Don't tell me to pray about it. > > I'm sorry. I certainly didn't intend it to be. I intended it to be > neutral. Look, I have served on assemblies long enough to have > seen a gamut of personal problems and situations arise. I have > NEVER known an assembly to EVER lose sight of the fact that > what they were dealing with wasn't a problem, but a person. > Usually, the person is much loved, and their situation causes > the members of the institution very personal grief. > > The sad thing is that the soul involved doesn't always realize > this. And regardless of the actual feelings of the assembly > members, treats them as if they were indeed, a persecuting > force. One young man an assembly I sat on counseled had a > drug problem for which he refused to get help. He viewed > the mere fact that the assembly called him for consultation > as an act of personal persecution. He thought the people on > the assembly were "out to get him," when in fact, every one > of them loved him, valued him and wanted him to be well both > spiritually and physically. After one meeting in which we had > attempted to talk to him, several members of the assembly burst > into tears. > Anything in the name of love? Nine amateur spiritual psychologists are just going to talk someone straight? I've seen it attempted too with similar results.... > > > > Reasonable. Many in the Faith thinks this way. I do too in some regards. > > But then we're no longer in a world of ideal beauty.... > > But Baha'u'llah is clear that His teachings and the power > released by His revelation have the capacity to light that > spark He says lies latent within us. I've seen what that > spark can accomplish in the lives of ordinary human beings. > We have within our grasp the means of bringing that world > of ideal beauty out of the realm of spirit and onto this > earth. The scriptures of God's faith in every age proclaim > this unequivocally. > And have always failed.... By there own self-definitions, failed. Why? What is it about human nature? Do you actually believe the Baha'i Faith will do any better? I don't. I don't believe the deepest suggestions of the writings suggest any such thing. > > My post, I believe, was about the individual capacity to sully anything > > and everything in "this world of gloom." > > May I call you Eeyore? :) (Sorry, couldn't help myself.) > I tried to post a reply to on the newsgroup. I used the same phrase in the copy I mailed you: "utterly naive" Richard Detweiler has banned my post because it might hurt your feelings--not my intention. A good example of the self-righteous Fascism build the new world order inspires in Baha'i fanatics.... Calling me Eeyore doesn't hurt my feelings. I have, unlike fanatics, a sense of humor and relish the variety of human temperaments God has so blessed the world with. Yours is not mine, that is all. Do the Faith a favor, write the CENSOR and tell him to respect the human conscience of others, not only mine. > In the Kitab-i-Iqan, Baha'u'llah says that when we truly > accept Him, recognize Him, the Holy Spirit will confer > upon us "a new ear, a new eye, a new heart and a new mind." > We are capable of being transformed, and the Word of God > (and only the Word of God ) is capable of causing that > transformation. > Beautiful metaphors. Understand? > I am deeply sorry that your experience within the > Baha'i community has been so negative. The lack of complexity is what concerns me, and the lack of acknowledgement of proportion. But every > negative experience in life offers us more than one > way to react. I've often marveled how adversity can > make one person opt for a life of misery and > recrimination (it was mother's fault, it was God's > fault, it was...) and another come to the decision that > they will simply NOT let that adversity steal their > joy, or their life. > > I know there are Baha'i communities that are ruled > by a small clique of set in stone believers, or > groups where a number of petty-minded souls seem > to have things in control. Indeed, I have a friend > who lived in such a community until a new Baha'i > family moved in and changed the dynamics of the > situation. My friend chose to deal with the problem > by withdrawing. The new friends set about and > accomplished the renewal of that community by > opening their house to firesides, getting the > assembly to meet, teaching the faith, and most > important, showering everyone in their community, > including those set in stone souls with love. They > gave the community the medicine Baha'u'llah > prescribed and saved the patient. > The usual answer. Lacking complexity. > You may argue against the idea that hatred ceases > only through love, but this is a prescription from > a Physician who knows far more about the ills of > human kind than either you or I. > It has never truly healed the patient. Baha'u'llah, unlike Baha'is, understand the condition is terminal.... > Mir, Maya > +----------------------------------------+ > | Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff syntax@oro.net | > +----------------------------------------+ > | "The beginning of all things is the | > | knowledge of God." - Baha'u'llah | > +----------------------------------------+ -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:14:44 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:32 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01084; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:11:05 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:11:04 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #11 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855491273.416@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:27:58 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 10083 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:26:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <"BYWGWC.A.PdB.pm0iy"@bounty> <328C806E.295C@moa.net> <32908412.2C44@oro.net> <3291A53E.78A1@moa.net> <3291CC64.9F@oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff wrote: > > Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > It > > > may be failing on my part if I don't try to correct > > > their view of me, but it is a far grosser failing if > > > I resent them for their views and let myself become > > > embittered by it. I won't change anything by lashing > > > out in anger, or by intentional alienation. Worst of all > > > if I separate myself from the entire Baha'i community > > > and Baha'u'allah because of these people, I'm only > > > doing myself a disservice. If they're really my enemies, > > > then my being a "weak sister" would be quite pleasing > > > to them. > > > > > > > You're a lovely soul. A more pious answer than I can muster. > > Piety has nothing to do with it. It's common sense. If we are > to unify, we must be unified. Unity can never be served by > anger or alienation. The only way to get rid of darkness is > to throw light on it. More darkness only conduces to, well... > more darkness. > > To my mind, after twenty years in the Baha'i Faith, the "unity" is a fraud, doesn't exist.... > > How will they deal with such things? What are the mechanisms? > > For "Evil is the Nature of Mankind." > > The mechanisms are those clearly laid down by Baha'u'llah, > Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. They involve a certain > giving up of self, consultation, respect, courtesy and > other attributes with which God has fully invested us. If these are the "mechanisms," they're insufficient. > I have served on assemblies for over 15 years. I've seen > this at work. Sometimes we need reminders, sometimes we > fail utterly, but the fact that we try is of paramount > importance and has great power. > > ""Evil is the Nature of Mankind?" Not according to > Baha'u'llah: > > "O Son of the Wondrous Vision! I have breathed upon thee > a breath of My own Spirit that thou mayest be My lover. > Why hast thou forsaken me and sought a beloved other > than Me?" > > "O Son of Spirit! Noble have I created thee, yet thou > hast abased thyself. Rise then, unto that for which > thou wast created." > > These passages and others make it clear that it is > our nature to be noble. Antinomy is presupposed. There is tragedy in Baha'u'llah's writings, tragedy minds like yours (I mean no insult), typically fail to understand. The other part is nurture. > We learn deceit and we teach it to others. We learn > hatred and we pass it along like a disease. > > > > Buddha said: Hatred does not cease by hatred, hatred ceases > > > by love. > > > > > > > Tell that to the Tibetans who have had their whole civilization > > wiped out.... > > They understand this better than anyone. What, after all, > nearly wiped out their civilization? Hatred and fear of what > was different and not controllable by the powers that would > be. > Even the Dali Lama has had second thoughts.... Much too late. > > They must. Let's be practical. What though when Assemblies self- > > righteously abuse their authority and persecute individuals? That > > can happen too, and then what? > > If a person feels he is being persecuted he has recourse to > the Auxiliary Board, another spiritual assembly, the National > Spiritual Assembly or even the House of Justice. Any and all > of these avenues of redress is open to the individual. Of > course, there is always the possibility that the individual's > perception that he's being "persecuted" is false. It's never > pleasant to be wrong about something, less pleasant to have > someone call your attention to it and ask that your behavior > change. I know this from personal experience. > > > > > As > > > an individual, I still had to treat the subject of consultation > > > with compassion. > > > > > > > A very dehumanizing phrase, Maya. It seems to me. This human tendency > > worries me. Don't tell me to pray about it. > > I'm sorry. I certainly didn't intend it to be. I intended it to be > neutral. Look, I have served on assemblies long enough to have > seen a gamut of personal problems and situations arise. I have > NEVER known an assembly to EVER lose sight of the fact that > what they were dealing with wasn't a problem, but a person. > Usually, the person is much loved, and their situation causes > the members of the institution very personal grief. > > The sad thing is that the soul involved doesn't always realize > this. And regardless of the actual feelings of the assembly > members, treats them as if they were indeed, a persecuting > force. One young man an assembly I sat on counseled had a > drug problem for which he refused to get help. He viewed > the mere fact that the assembly called him for consultation > as an act of personal persecution. He thought the people on > the assembly were "out to get him," when in fact, every one > of them loved him, valued him and wanted him to be well both > spiritually and physically. After one meeting in which we had > attempted to talk to him, several members of the assembly burst > into tears. > Anything in the name of love? Nine amateur spiritual psychologists are just going to talk someone straight? I've seen it attempted too with similar results.... > > > > Reasonable. Many in the Faith thinks this way. I do too in some regards. > > But then we're no longer in a world of ideal beauty.... > > But Baha'u'llah is clear that His teachings and the power > released by His revelation have the capacity to light that > spark He says lies latent within us. I've seen what that > spark can accomplish in the lives of ordinary human beings. > We have within our grasp the means of bringing that world > of ideal beauty out of the realm of spirit and onto this > earth. The scriptures of God's faith in every age proclaim > this unequivocally. > And have always failed.... By there own self-definitions, failed. Why? What is it about human nature? Do you actually believe the Baha'i Faith will do any better? I don't. I don't believe the deepest suggestions of the writings suggest any such thing. > > My post, I believe, was about the individual capacity to sully anything > > and everything in "this world of gloom." > > May I call you Eeyore? :) (Sorry, couldn't help myself.) > I tried to post a reply to on the newsgroup. I used the same phrase in the copy I mailed you: "utterly naive" Richard Detweiler has banned my post because it might hurt your feelings--not my intention. A good example of the self-righteous Fascism build the new world order inspires in Baha'i fanatics.... Calling me Eeyore doesn't hurt my feelings. I have, unlike fanatics, a sense of humor and relish the variety of human temperaments God has so blessed the world with. Yours is not mine, that is all. Do the Faith a favor, write the CENSOR and tell him to respect the human conscience of others, not only mine. > In the Kitab-i-Iqan, Baha'u'llah says that when we truly > accept Him, recognize Him, the Holy Spirit will confer > upon us "a new ear, a new eye, a new heart and a new mind." > We are capable of being transformed, and the Word of God > (and only the Word of God ) is capable of causing that > transformation. > Beautiful metaphors. Understand? > I am deeply sorry that your experience within the > Baha'i community has been so negative. The lack of complexity is what concerns me, and the lack of acknowledgement of proportion. But every > negative experience in life offers us more than one > way to react. I've often marveled how adversity can > make one person opt for a life of misery and > recrimination (it was mother's fault, it was God's > fault, it was...) and another come to the decision that > they will simply NOT let that adversity steal their > joy, or their life. > > I know there are Baha'i communities that are ruled > by a small clique of set in stone believers, or > groups where a number of petty-minded souls seem > to have things in control. Indeed, I have a friend > who lived in such a community until a new Baha'i > family moved in and changed the dynamics of the > situation. My friend chose to deal with the problem > by withdrawing. The new friends set about and > accomplished the renewal of that community by > opening their house to firesides, getting the > assembly to meet, teaching the faith, and most > important, showering everyone in their community, > including those set in stone souls with love. They > gave the community the medicine Baha'u'llah > prescribed and saved the patient. > The usual answer. Lacking complexity. > You may argue against the idea that hatred ceases > only through love, but this is a prescription from > a Physician who knows far more about the ills of > human kind than either you or I. > It has never truly healed the patient. Baha'u'llah, unlike Baha'is, understand the condition is terminal.... > Mir, Maya > +----------------------------------------+ > | Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff syntax@oro.net | > +----------------------------------------+ > | "The beginning of all things is the | > | knowledge of God." - Baha'u'llah | > +----------------------------------------+ -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:20:51 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:35 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01088; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:11:07 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:11:06 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #13 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855491558.492@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:32:40 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6352 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community To: @moa.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:43:07 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 19, 96 06:10:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, that would be acceptable. Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these events. Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and blatant sarcasm. Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@moa.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 78 > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > To: Anne Furlong > CC: @moa.net > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > whatsoever. > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > [clip] > > > > > Why do people become disillusioned with the community? with individuals? > > Well, we all know people who, by force of personality, or because of > > defects of character and personality, receive, demand, or desire > > acquiescence from other individuals. But note: if such people do in fact > > poison a community, who ultimately must take the responsibility? Power > > is not theirs to command: it is ceded to them by those who have not the > > wisdom or the courage to recognise that what is being asked is both > > contrary to the Faith, and ultimately impossible to give. > > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > > Yes, impossible: for since in the Administrative order which is > > Baha'u'llah's gift to the world, power and authority are divided, > > In theory, yes; in practice, I'm not convinced. > > then the > > efforts of a few misguided individuals to bring power and authority > > together in their own persons; or to build up factions; or to do anything, > > in fact, which is contravenes the spirit and the reality of the Covenant, > > are doomed to failure. 'Abdu'l-Baha said that the ocean of the Covenant > > will surge and surge until it casts the bodies of the (spiritually) dead > > onto the shore. We cannot ultimately harm the progress of the Cause, but > > can cut ourselves off from the abundant share of the blessings which > > obedience to the Covenant brings to us. > > > > If we are disillusioned with the community we live in, then our response > > will either add to the problem or be the start of its eradication. The > > whole purpose of consultation is to allow the individual to exercise > > responsibility - his power - within the "unit of civilization". > > What I am saying is that there are situations when it is not allowed. You're > too quick to leap over that fact for me. > > We are > > all going to be responsible for our actions to Baha'u'llah when we pass > > from this earth; are we going to plead the immaturity of others as the > > reason for our failure to love? > > > > Your dragging "love" into this confuses the issue. > > > Baha'u'llah did more than despise tyranny; in his Administrative Order, > > He, as the Divine Physician, prescribed the effective and permanent remedy. > > > > The point from the original post was in regard to the abuse of the remedy, > turning it into a cheap medicine show elixir. What then of the community > or individuals under that Tyranny? > > > All the best, > > > > Anne Furlong > > St John's Newfoundland Canada > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:14:51 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:35 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01088; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:11:07 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:11:06 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #13 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855491558.492@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:32:40 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6352 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community To: @moa.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 07:43:07 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 19, 96 06:10:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, that would be acceptable. Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these events. Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and blatant sarcasm. Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@moa.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 78 > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > To: Anne Furlong > CC: @moa.net > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > whatsoever. > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > [clip] > > > > > Why do people become disillusioned with the community? with individuals? > > Well, we all know people who, by force of personality, or because of > > defects of character and personality, receive, demand, or desire > > acquiescence from other individuals. But note: if such people do in fact > > poison a community, who ultimately must take the responsibility? Power > > is not theirs to command: it is ceded to them by those who have not the > > wisdom or the courage to recognise that what is being asked is both > > contrary to the Faith, and ultimately impossible to give. > > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > > Yes, impossible: for since in the Administrative order which is > > Baha'u'llah's gift to the world, power and authority are divided, > > In theory, yes; in practice, I'm not convinced. > > then the > > efforts of a few misguided individuals to bring power and authority > > together in their own persons; or to build up factions; or to do anything, > > in fact, which is contravenes the spirit and the reality of the Covenant, > > are doomed to failure. 'Abdu'l-Baha said that the ocean of the Covenant > > will surge and surge until it casts the bodies of the (spiritually) dead > > onto the shore. We cannot ultimately harm the progress of the Cause, but > > can cut ourselves off from the abundant share of the blessings which > > obedience to the Covenant brings to us. > > > > If we are disillusioned with the community we live in, then our response > > will either add to the problem or be the start of its eradication. The > > whole purpose of consultation is to allow the individual to exercise > > responsibility - his power - within the "unit of civilization". > > What I am saying is that there are situations when it is not allowed. You're > too quick to leap over that fact for me. > > We are > > all going to be responsible for our actions to Baha'u'llah when we pass > > from this earth; are we going to plead the immaturity of others as the > > reason for our failure to love? > > > > Your dragging "love" into this confuses the issue. > > > Baha'u'llah did more than despise tyranny; in his Administrative Order, > > He, as the Divine Physician, prescribed the effective and permanent remedy. > > > > The point from the original post was in regard to the abuse of the remedy, > turning it into a cheap medicine show elixir. What then of the community > or individuals under that Tyranny? > > > All the best, > > > > Anne Furlong > > St John's Newfoundland Canada > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:20:56 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:37 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01092; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:11:08 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:11:07 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #14 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855491710.519@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:35:13 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @MOA.NET X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6639 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:27:04 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > False. They go to the heart of the matter, i.e., how it functions. > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. "Vent your frustrations" is in the same category as my "Utterly naive." I don't seek to deprive you of your conscience that apparently believes that. You may say what you wish. It won't hurt my little feelings. I believe you're again manipulating discussion in a dictatorial, oppressive manner unjustified by anything in the Baha'i Writings which you apparently cloak your shameless deeds in. This newsgroup, > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > The abuse of the conscience of a member of the Baha'i Faith and, apparently regular practice of distortion and censorship is not a suitable topic? I can understand why you wouldn't wish to have anyone else know.... > Thank you for participating, > I'm not participating at all. You are self-righteous depriving me of that. You are also depriving others of hearing or disagreeing with my opinions. > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 68 > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Sian Smith > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > >> > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is is > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed. We > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in the > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background that > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse of > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts. > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc. > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > another person). > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks. > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE > > reads.... If that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what > > is it? > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it.... > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged.... > > Let's not make ways.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > Wellington > > > New Zealand > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > = End submitted post =========================== YOU DEAR CENSORS have shown your true colors once again. -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:14:56 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:37 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01092; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:11:08 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:11:07 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #14 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855491710.519@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:35:13 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @MOA.NET X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6639 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:27:04 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191434.HAA23362@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > As your post contains sarcastic comments and argues with the > moderation of the group in a demeaning and disrespectful manner, > it will not be posted. These issues are also peripheral to > the purpose of the newsgroup in any case. > False. They go to the heart of the matter, i.e., how it functions. > If you are seeking full vent to your frustrations, I suggest > news.admin or talk.religion.misc on the Internet as the first > is appropriate and the other is unmoderated. "Vent your frustrations" is in the same category as my "Utterly naive." I don't seek to deprive you of your conscience that apparently believes that. You may say what you wish. It won't hurt my little feelings. I believe you're again manipulating discussion in a dictatorial, oppressive manner unjustified by anything in the Baha'i Writings which you apparently cloak your shameless deeds in. This newsgroup, > however, is for discussion of the Baha'i Faith in an atmosphere > of respect and free from topical tangents of all kinds. > The abuse of the conscience of a member of the Baha'i Faith and, apparently regular practice of distortion and censorship is not a suitable topic? I can understand why you wouldn't wish to have anyone else know.... > Thank you for participating, > I'm not participating at all. You are self-righteous depriving me of that. You are also depriving others of hearing or disagreeing with my opinions. > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:44:11 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 68 > > Message-ID: <32918F7B.76FA@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qogd$rii@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Sian Smith > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > Sian Smith wrote: > > > > > > In article <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty>, Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> says: > > > > > > > > > > [snip extracts from previous messages about being disillusioned] > > > > > > >> : >As you know, the Bahai Faith doesn't have priests, preachers, or any > > > >> : >individuals who have the responsibility of telling people what to do, unlike > > > >> : >churches. However, from my experience I've discovered associating with > > > >> : >"Bahais" and not expecting them to play the roles of surrogate priests and > > > >> : > surrogate parish to be incredibly wishful and foolish thinking. > > > >> > > > >> : Since the Baha'i Community does not have a paid clergy, every Baha'is is > > > >> : to perform the service that the clergy of previous religions performed. We > > > >> : are each to study the Holy Writings, and to teach and deepen others in the > > > >> : Faith. It may be hard for one of a traditional religious background that > > > >> : does not encourage study to take responsibility for one's own spiritual > > > >> : growth, but we all have to struggle to change our shortcomings. > > > >> > > > > > > > >Miguel, you utterly miss Karl's well-taken point here again. It's the abuse of > > > >the responsibility that is the crux of his observation. Power corrupts. > > > >And it can corrupt Baha'is as well as Christians, Muslims, Nazis, etc. > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but WHO in the Baha'i Faith has any "power"? I've > > > never met anyone in the Faith who has power of any kind (i.e: power in > > > the sense that they can exert some kind of binding influence over > > > another person). > > > > I'll give you an example: The "moderators" of this newsgroup. They've > > censored a number of messages I've tried to post during the last few weeks. > > They have the "power" to determine what you and everyone else OUT THERE > > reads.... If that's not control and power to SHAPE thought and opinion what > > is it? > > > > Maybe the previous writer was referring to some other > > > kind of power - in which case I would be grateful to receive a > > > "definition", so to speak, of this power and how it compares to the > > > "definition" I had in mind which, in my own humble opinion, is the sort > > > of power which is contained in the assertion "power corrupts". > > > > > > > The "moderators" power is corrupting and inhibiting the exchange of ideas > > on this newsgroup. When I attempted to bring this to the attention of > > contributors by posting a message to this effect earlier, I was told > > > > THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION THE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE "MODERATORS." > > Kitab-i-Oppression, page 999. > > > > > The only person who has any kind of power over my spiritual development > > > is ME. I cannot abdicate that responsibility to someone else. > > > > > > > There's a sense in which you're right. But secular and religious history > > is wracked with the abuse of POWER and the devastating results of it.... > > It always began in little ways.... A little at a time.... People shrugged.... > > Let's not make ways.... Let's build UNITY! > > > > > Loving greetings > > > > > > Sian Smith > > > Wellington > > > New Zealand > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > > = End submitted post =========================== YOU DEAR CENSORS have shown your true colors once again. -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:21:01 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:39 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01096; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:11:10 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:11:09 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #15 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855491889.537@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:38:09 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4165 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] >From - Wed Nov 20 13:57:47 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.66) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:25:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3293247F.2340@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:32:15 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Further response-- Your characterization of my comments as sarcastic is ludicrous. One may not be sarcastic in the Baha'i Faith? And you are too determine is toooooo SARCASTIC? Oh God, what a farce! Since you apparently don't understand the passage in question, I'm supposed to water in down for YOUR ignorance! I'm talking about the totalitarianism of the SOVIET UNION which you dangerously come close to. Again, I request that you post my message or pass it on to someone else who is not as fanatical as you. Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack > on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, > that would be acceptable. > > Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events > than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these > events. > > Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, > you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for > the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and > blatant sarcasm. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 78 > > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Anne Furlong > > CC: @moa.net > > > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > > whatsoever. > > > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > > > [clip] -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:15:01 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:39 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01096; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:11:10 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:11:09 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #15 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855491889.537@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:38:09 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4165 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] >From - Wed Nov 20 13:57:47 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.66) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:25:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3293247F.2340@moa.net> Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:32:15 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611191443.HAA24131@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Further response-- Your characterization of my comments as sarcastic is ludicrous. One may not be sarcastic in the Baha'i Faith? And you are too determine is toooooo SARCASTIC? Oh God, what a farce! Since you apparently don't understand the passage in question, I'm supposed to water in down for YOUR ignorance! I'm talking about the totalitarianism of the SOVIET UNION which you dangerously come close to. Again, I request that you post my message or pass it on to someone else who is not as fanatical as you. Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Mr. Glaysher, > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > I ask that you strike the comment "utterly naive" as an attack > on the previous poster. If you would like to say you disagree, > that would be acceptable. > > Also, your sarcastic comments in the following paragraph: > > > Excellent point. A profound moral problem arises here. How can the individual > > maintain the moral strength of character to resist abuse and manipulation when > > power can be wielded in such a way as to undermine that very ability? To > > discredit it. Ban it. Brand it as outlaw, heretic, disruptive, anti-social, > > working against the realization, e.g., of the communist Kingdom of Freedom. > > If you would turn this into a meaningful criticism based on actual events > than the readership could evaluate and enter into a dialog with you on these > events. > > Again, let me make it clear that if you have a grievance with the Faith, > you are free to air it here, but it must be the facts and your reasons for > the grievance presented and not belittling insults, broad stereotypes, and > blatant sarcasm. > > Thank you for participating, > > Dick Detweiler > rdetweil@primenet.com > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-26.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@moa.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community > > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:10:21 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 78 > > Message-ID: <3291959D.7D9C@moa.net> > > References: <"-ER8GC.A.gTH.UGkiy"@bounty> <56qoi9$rmd@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: Anne Furlong > > CC: @moa.net > > > > Anne Furlong wrote: > > > > > > The reference to power probably helps poinpoint the difficulty some of > > > the friends have here. The point is that in this Faith, for the first > > > time in religious history, power and authority have been intentionally > > > and effectively severed. The authority to make decisions, to legislate, > > > to guide, rests with the elected institutions of the Faith. However, > > > these institutions - and the individuals who make them up - have no power > > > whatsoever. > > > > "No power whatsoever": Utterly naive.... > > > > [clip] -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:21:05 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:42 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01100; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:11:12 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:11:11 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #16 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855492115.588@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:41:55 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1353 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] From: FG <@MOA.net> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:43:04 -0500 Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32945C68.3378@moa.net> References: <56tfo6$cgg@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <56vdgi$eth@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) CC: @MOA.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling through this morass.... The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the power to change the world.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:15:05 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:42 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01100; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:11:12 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:11:11 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #16 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855492115.588@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:41:55 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1353 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] From: FG <@MOA.net> Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:43:04 -0500 Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32945C68.3378@moa.net> References: <56tfo6$cgg@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> <56vdgi$eth@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) CC: @MOA.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0004 Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling through this morass.... The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the power to change the world.... -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:15:08 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:43 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01104; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:11:13 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:11:13 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #17 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855492234.617@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:43:55 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4135 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611202214.PAA26784@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > > The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be subject > > > to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include frank > > > yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search > > > for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this statement > > > alone that I have rejected some of your posts. > > > > I don't believe this is true. "Utterly naive" refers to the idea, not to > > its author as an insult. You're the one who has construed that way. I can't > > even understand what could possibly be WRONG with your objection to the > > second passage in the post in question. > > > > Thank you for pointing this out - I hadn't thought of it like that. Then what's YOUR problem. Post it or suppress it. But I > hope you can see that if I (and the other mods) can be confused on this > point, it will probably be the case with many in the readership as well. You're assumption is that OTHERS will be as imperceptive as you. And hence you BAN ME! > Our tendency is to err on the side of not posting things when they may be > misinterpretted by the readership as being attacks or insults. Even after admitting the ERROR is on your part? Not logical. You're trying to justify your heavy-handed will to BAN. That way, > the respectful tone is maintained. There is nothing disrespectful about either passage YOU'VE questioned. Remember that the readership includes > people from all backgrounds and cultures. Irrelevant justification. You're groping for excuses. I have been surprised many times > when seemingly innocuous comments have offended. Nothing would then ever get posted in your scenario. Unless it meets your prejudices. I try to make sure the > chance of this is kept to a minimum. > I don't know that. You're suppression to posting ratio would be required to make that determination; it would have to be independently confirmed. > And, if I may, don't you think "I believe you are being naive because..." > makes your points easier for other to accept and continue to engage you > rather than a brusque "Utterly naive"? Please think about that. I > assume your reason for being here is to share your viewpoint with others. > You sound like a schoolmarm. A self-righteous, prudish old bag. What gives you the right? God's charter? It doesn't come from Him. > > Your attempt to hide behind the newsgroup charter strikes me as a mere > > stratagem to conceal what you're actually doing: CENSORING. > > > > Once again, Mr Glaysher - my job is not to supress ideas but to make sure > those ideas are presented in a respectful manner conducive to frank and > unfettered consultation. > You're completely fettering my consultation. But that's okay. You possess the prescience to know better. Again, you're groping for justification of your suppressing the presentation of my views to others. > I continue to await the chance to post your thoughts in the submittals in > question when they are appropriate for posting to the newsgroup. > Mr. Detweiler, you appear to me to be completely shameless and drunk on your little power to muzzle people who don't echo your opinions. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai Again, I ask you to post my message since as you acknowledge above its about IDEAS. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:21:07 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:43 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01104; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:11:13 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:11:13 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #17 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855492234.617@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:43:55 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4135 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611202214.PAA26784@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > > The charter of the newsgroup states that "the Newsgroup will be subject > > > to standards of Baha'i consultation whose salient features include frank > > > yet respectful statement of views and the concerted, open-minded search > > > for truth." It is on this statement in the charter and this statement > > > alone that I have rejected some of your posts. > > > > I don't believe this is true. "Utterly naive" refers to the idea, not to > > its author as an insult. You're the one who has construed that way. I can't > > even understand what could possibly be WRONG with your objection to the > > second passage in the post in question. > > > > Thank you for pointing this out - I hadn't thought of it like that. Then what's YOUR problem. Post it or suppress it. But I > hope you can see that if I (and the other mods) can be confused on this > point, it will probably be the case with many in the readership as well. You're assumption is that OTHERS will be as imperceptive as you. And hence you BAN ME! > Our tendency is to err on the side of not posting things when they may be > misinterpretted by the readership as being attacks or insults. Even after admitting the ERROR is on your part? Not logical. You're trying to justify your heavy-handed will to BAN. That way, > the respectful tone is maintained. There is nothing disrespectful about either passage YOU'VE questioned. Remember that the readership includes > people from all backgrounds and cultures. Irrelevant justification. You're groping for excuses. I have been surprised many times > when seemingly innocuous comments have offended. Nothing would then ever get posted in your scenario. Unless it meets your prejudices. I try to make sure the > chance of this is kept to a minimum. > I don't know that. You're suppression to posting ratio would be required to make that determination; it would have to be independently confirmed. > And, if I may, don't you think "I believe you are being naive because..." > makes your points easier for other to accept and continue to engage you > rather than a brusque "Utterly naive"? Please think about that. I > assume your reason for being here is to share your viewpoint with others. > You sound like a schoolmarm. A self-righteous, prudish old bag. What gives you the right? God's charter? It doesn't come from Him. > > Your attempt to hide behind the newsgroup charter strikes me as a mere > > stratagem to conceal what you're actually doing: CENSORING. > > > > Once again, Mr Glaysher - my job is not to supress ideas but to make sure > those ideas are presented in a respectful manner conducive to frank and > unfettered consultation. > You're completely fettering my consultation. But that's okay. You possess the prescience to know better. Again, you're groping for justification of your suppressing the presentation of my views to others. > I continue to await the chance to post your thoughts in the submittals in > question when they are appropriate for posting to the newsgroup. > Mr. Detweiler, you appear to me to be completely shameless and drunk on your little power to muzzle people who don't echo your opinions. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai Again, I ask you to post my message since as you acknowledge above its about IDEAS. -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:21:10 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:45 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01108; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:11:15 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:11:14 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #18 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855492571.666@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:49:33 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 5249 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] From: "Richard C. Detweiler" Message-Id: <199611221548.IAA01560@primenet.com> Subject: Re: New Sacred Text Unveiled To: @MOA.net (Frederick Glaysher) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:48:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: srb-mods@bcca.org In-Reply-To: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> from "Frederick Glaysher" at Nov 22, 96 08:18:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Mr. Glaysher, Sorry for the inadvertent send on the last message. The following will not be posted to the newsgroup as it is disrespectful in tone and sarcastic in the extreme. As a Baha'i, perhaps you will get some value out of the following excerpts from Baha'u'llah's Writings. I provide them as insight into why the moderators enforce the policies they have in place. "O ye beloved of the Lord! Commit not that which defileth the limpid stream of love or destroyeth the sweet fragrance of friendship. By the righteousness of the Lord! We were created to show love one to another and not perversity and rancor. Take pride not in love for yourselves but in love for your fellow-creatures. Glory not in love for your country, but in love for all mankind." - Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah 138 (quoted in "Unrestrained as the Wind", section on "Demonstrating love and fellowship", p 87 ). "Say: Human utterance is an essence which aspireth to exert its influence and needeth moderation. As to its influence, this is conditional upon refinement which in turn is dependent upon hearts which are detached and pure. As to its moderation, this hath to be combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures and Tablets. Meditate upon that which hath streamed forth from the heaven of the Will of thy Lord, He Who is the Source of all grace, that thou mayest grasp the intended meaning which is enshrined in the sacred depths of the Holy Writings." - Baha'u'llah, Tablet of Wisdom, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 143 "For the tongue is a smouldering fire, and excess of speech a deadly poison. Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of the tongue devoureth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endure a century." - Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 193 Thank you for participating, Dick Detweiler rdetweil@primenet.com Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-11.ouhub.moa.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > Subject: New Sacred Text Unveiled > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:18:05 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > Lines: 20 > Message-ID: <3295A80D.1168@moa.net> > References: <56vhv1$p1e@nnrp1.news.primenet.com> > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > CC: @MOA.net > > Apparently, a new text has been discovered. Or perhaps it has always > been there. I, and others, apparently, missed it. It was difficult > to see. Alas, I, we, are so woefully human.... Blind and stumbling > through this morass.... > > The crucial passage in the newly discovered Revealed Word is this: > > > THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT SARCASM! > > > There are sensitive plants. We mustn't hurt their feelings. > > I beg all of you to meditate profoundly on this koan. It has the > power to change the world.... > > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > ================ End submitted post =========================== >From - Sun Nov 24 10:10:50 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.60) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:34:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3296F108.4BEF@moa.net> Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 07:41:44 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611211540.IAA09540@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 What I wrote meets the charter of the newsgroup and the "modifications" you want are unnecessary and unjustifiable. You yourself acknowledged your request for "modification" was based on your own misreading and misunderstanding of the post. God save us if the Baha'i Faith comes down to people like you "protecting" us.... I ask you again to post it or pass it on to someone else who's more rational than you. -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:21:16 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 08:05:48 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA01112; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:11:16 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:11:16 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #19 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855492867.757@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:54:28 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4683 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] Subject: Re: forming talk.religion.bahai Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 07:33:29 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> To: boatright@cjnetworks.com References: 1 Samantha, Michele, or someone has asked for my retractions.... I've posted the message to news.groups since it's another censored one.... As I mentioned to her, she, they, decided to post the other person's original nasty message that hurts my little feelings.... but that's okay.... no censorship or unfairness involved.... -- Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > Again, I have seen a note that Michele felt that the "psychology > student, first year" comment was a direct attack and asking you to > please either forward this via direct email or edit that line. The > post as a whole is of course, entirely within charter and we _very > much_ want to post your stuff, but please reffer to Michele's direct > comments to you rather than trusting my poor memory. > > Are you having email trouble? I _know_ I saw this one go out. > > Rick Boatright > > > [Please post or reject this message.] > > > > > > Subject: > > Re: Forward to soc.religion.bahai > > Date: > > Wed, 05 Feb 1997 07:41:38 -0500 > > From: > > Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > To: > > Samantha > > BCC: > > @MOA.net > > References: > > 1 > > > > > > Samantha wrote: > > > > > > [Please forward this post to soc.religion.bahai after you've read it > > > yourself.] > > > > Forward and post your own messages. This one, with my response. > > > > > > > > Frederick, > > > > > > You probably should form your own newsgroup. The mis-directed anger that > > > you display in soc.religion.bahai is embarrassing to witness. > > > > > > > Now what about my FEELINGS? It's okay for YOU to make blanket > > statements > > unsupported by particular references.... > > > > > Your claim that the moderators of this newsgroup are too controlling is > > > unfounded and inaccurate. > > > > I believe it's true. Read the censored messages at news.groups > > There's a newly censored one I'll be posting there this morning.... > > > > If you consider the variety of topics > > > discussed in the space of one week, you'll see that quite a wide > > > spectrum is covered. > > > > And how many censored messages never get through? We wouldn't know > > that, would we? > > > > Like all newsgroups, this one has a few (very few) > > > parameters that are enforced, simply for the sake of maintaining some > > > type of order. > > > > Not in my experience. They are constantly interfering in communication > > for all kinds of trivial reasons.... > > > > The request that posts relate directly to the Baha'i > > > Faith is fair, and quite broad, in my opinion. > > > > > > > I've never said otherwise. > > > > > There must be some reason that you're attacking the moderators of > > > soc.relion.bahai, and the Baha'i Faith itself, with such vehemence. > > > > First of all, I'm not attacking them. I'm defending my own religious > > conscience and free speech. Why is it you don't care or have the > > slightest respect, apparently, for the integrity of my own mind? > > I'm not attacking the Bahai Faith; they are, in a sense, in my > > opinion. (I don't want to overemphasize that last statement. I'm > > not demonizing them. I'm sure they're sincere too in their own > > beliefs, and I respect that.) The Bahai Writings uphold the > > individual's expression of conscience. > > > > > However, I'd venture to guess that it's nothing Baha'i-related, but > > > something that you're suffering internally. This newsgroup just happens > > > to provide a convenient, emotionally-safe venue for you to express your > > > anger. > > > > > > > Now let me guess. You're a pyschology student? First year? > > > > > I hope you find the answers you're looking for. You sound like someone > > > who's in a lot of pain. > > > > > > Samantha > > > > I'm sure you mean well or think you do? May God bless you, and help > > you to mature.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester Hills, Michigan USA > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester Hills, Michigan USA -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:09:32 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:55:58 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA00902; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:01:30 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:01:27 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #2 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855489555.11@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 11:59:15 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 2866 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 17:25:32 -0500 From: <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611091538.IAA03876@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > Please reformat and delete personal reference to moderators and > blanket attacks against groups and I would be happy to post > your remarks, > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com Dear Richard: Let me make sure I understand this: Moderators, like Hitler and other fascists, are above all criticism. The Kitab-i-Oppression says so. I spelled out "SOME" though I believe the context, as well as reason, implies it. > > > Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 07:58:27 -0500 > > From: <@moa.net> > > Organization: > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > To: "Richard C. Detweiler" > > Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community > > References: <199611071911.MAA13396@primenet.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > > > Thank you for your submission to soc.religion.bahai. > > > > > > I am returningthis to you for editting. [sic] I cannot allow the blanket > > > statements: > > > > > > > It seems to me the growth of the Faith has been perhaps hopelessly stunted by > > > > the Iranian Baha'i influence upon the understanding of its teachings, > > > > especially in this regard. > > > > > > and > > > > > > > and modest possibilities of human material. One that that such cultures as that > > > > of Iran blithely ignore in their futile, primitive, brutal search for perfection > > > > and obedience. > > > > > > to be postedi to the newsgroup. As stated with no supporting information, > > > these statements are unfair stereotypes which could cause a lot of heat with > > > no new light. :-) Please either strike them or edit them to make them more > > > general or backed up by fact. > > > > > > Thank you for participating, > > > > > > Dick Detweiler > > > rdetweil@primenet.com > > > Co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > ================ Begin submitted post ========================= > > > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:09:43 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:56:02 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA00909; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:01:32 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:01:32 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #3 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855489703.56@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:01:44 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 2983 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611092303.QAA00271@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I am sorry if you have a problem with moderated newsgroups. "Problem" is a derogatory characterization of my position. What I disaprove of is CENSORED newsgroups. In my last posting, I apparently hurt your feelings. But if > you would like to take part in the discussion on this groups, you need > to make sure your submittals meet the charter of the group. I am > enclosing a copy of it for your reference. Please keep it in mind > while reviewing the post in question and my comments. Again, when > it is free of personal attacks [you?] and negative comments about a whole > group of people which could find them offensive, [I qualified the obvious, i.e., what ought to go without saying.] I would be happy > to post it. My reformatting request had to do with getting rid of > the '>'s that have build up over the course of our exchange. I'm resending it then. > > Let me also reiterate that negative comments about the Faith are fine > on the newsgroup as long as they meet the charter. If you would like > to make a point that Iranian culture tends towards orthodoxy and that > that may impact the way some individuals act, that's alright. [sic] Just > make sure the comments meet the charter. [And God has enlightened you to make the decision?] If you want to say Baha'is > are a bunch of uptight, repressed, narrow-minded, religiously-conned, > non-intellectual, misguided saps, just make sure you say it with a > smile on your face, OK? This, Richard, is a generalization, one apparently you find permissible. I, however, will grant you what you refuse to grant me: The statement of an opinion without endless, absurd qualifications, IMHOs, etc. > > And one more thing, fascists like me like honey a lot better than > vinegar. If you take my meaning... > You're abusing your power. All fascists do/did. Threats stultify the exchange of ideas as much as censorship. > Your jack-booted, brown-shirted moderator friend, You're trying to turn into a joke a very serious issue. > > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > > CHARTER FOR THE SOC.RELIGION.BAHAI NEWSGROUP > ============================================== I don't disagree with any of this nor did my original post. -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:09:46 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:56:10 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA00916; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:01:40 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:01:38 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #4 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855489963.165@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @.moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:06:04 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 3110 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Bahai Community References: <199611101525.IAA23650@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > The following comments - as personal attacks which have no place on > this newsgroup - need to be removed before this will be submitted to > the newsgroup: > These do not constitute personal attacks but exposures of your undue interference in the content on my postings. I can understand you would prefer no one else should know about the issue. In my opinion, you're violating my constitutional freedom as an American citizen and my privilege as a Baha'i to express my conscience candidly. In both of these passages, I am taking issue with the heavy-handed editorial practice that you seem to believe is justifiable. I trust the spark of truth enough to manifest itself to allow others to speak their minds. That, to me, is a Baha'i principle, sorely neglected in your handling of my post. I believe it is legitimate use of the newsgroup to discuss the moderators' procedures for manipulating discussion. > > especially in this regard. [At the insistence of the "moderator," the best recent > > evidence of this in my experience is the censoring of this posting > > the first time I submitted it. As a pre-Reformation, or non-Reformation culture, Iran > > has the typical tendency to disallow the free exchange of opinion. IMHO, this cultural > > predilection is shared by SOME Iranian Baha'is. How could it not be?] > > and > > > [Once again forced by the CENSOR, I apparently need to point outthat > > Iran (Baha'u'llah seems to have noticed this), as a culture, does not > > value the free exchange of ideas.] > > Strike these and incorporate your parenthetical comments into the main body > of your post and I would be happy to post this to the newsgroup. > Your request to strike these is so as not to draw attention to your flawed handling of my posting. You're now merely trying to protect yourself from the possible censure you have earned. I'm not out to get YOU. Don't get paranoid. It's policy that permits ANY moderator to do what you have that concerns me. I believe that policy, in context, is worthy of discussion, indeed, essential. Your request to include my parenthetical comments constitutes another request to obscure further the real issue. Your attempt to protect yourself at the cost of silencing me. > Dick Detweiler > co-moderator, soc.religion.bahai > rdetweil@primenet.com > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:09:50 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:56:13 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA00921; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:01:42 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:01:42 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #5 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855490114.187@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:08:36 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 6592 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] >From - Thu Nov 14 06:37:42 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.44) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:21:48 -0500 Message-ID: <3289BEEC.27DF@moa.net> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:28:28 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Haukness CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Another excellent example, apparently, of the abuse of your laughable little powers as a "moderator." You're interfering too much in the CONTENT of the message. John Haukness wrote: > > Dear Rick: After reviewing my message I find my tone and objectivity, is > quite more temperate and reserved than many other posts. I find > soc.religion's moderating policy to lean towards the left ideology. > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Rick Boatright wrote: > > > Dear John, (and copied to Frederick) > > > > I have already asked Frederick to decrease the quote in the message > > he sent to the newsgroup and to which you are replying. Could we, > > perhaps let you two continue this in private email, or perhaps you > > both would like to prepare new summeries of your positions for the > > newsgroup? These messages with their extremely lenthy quoted > > context violate the signal-to-noise ratio that the newsgroup > > generally strives for. > > > > Rick Boatright > > co-moderator > > soc.religion.bahai > > > > > > Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:18:02 -0600 (CST) > > From: John Haukness > > To: Frederick Glaysher <@moa.net> > > Cc: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Subject: Re: Reviewing and Freedom of Speech and Thought > > > > > > > > On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Frederick Glaysher wrote: > > > > > John Haukness wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Friends: One can see me as anti-whatever they want. The writings of > > > > the Guardian make it clear to me that the american separation of Church > > > > and state is based on fear and will fade away. > > > > > > It's based on fear of the harsh realities of historical experience--often > > > bloody. The Guardian is more nuanced. > > > > And now we live in the Day that will not be followed by nite! Also, we > > as much historical episodes of bood baths as a result of secular > > behaviors so do you want also to separate the secular from the > > secular based on using the same logic? have> > As far as equating > > > > Religion and state as one, being common anti intellectual sentiment, I am > > > > familiar with a long list of Baha'i's arguing this, many who have > > > > published far more than I have- I wish people would start studying Shoghi > > > > Effendi with an open mind, and Abdul Baha's statements on education. > > > > > > > > Of course my friends William and John Hatcher have put this issue to > > > > rest, safe ground, as with their publishing record, it is hard to call > > > > them anti-intellectual. From Shoghi Effendi: "As the Baha'i > > > > Administrative Order rapidly expands throughout the world it behooves > > > > everyone associated with it to familiarize himself with its principles > > > > to understand its import and to put its precepts into practice. The > > > > divinely ordained institutions of the Local Spriityal Assembly operates > > > > at the first levels of human society and is the basic administrative unit > > > > of Bahaullah's World Order." So how are you going to separate religion > > > > from Bahaullah's World Order, an Order, Bahaullah has placed the state in? > > > > > > > > > > I made no such suggestion. > > > The suggestion of your post was that Western secularism's separation > > of church and state was good, I assummed you were applying that it still > > is necessary. > > > > > > > > > Well, John, you sure know how to ignore unpleasant facts and dispense with > > > 400 years of religious and social history triumphantly. > > > As I have said, there is no conclusive evidence that the separation of > > church and state have provided the security you are attributing, for > > the>past 400 years there are as many wars, forced famines and the like > > among church against church and state against state, Likewise being > > ignored are all the successful ventures of cooperation the past 400 > > years of religion and state; but regardless, that was then and now > > is now. What stikes me, is that with keen insight, (I would shure like > > to hear from the readers who already have noticed the following) one > > can begin to see the faint glimmers, that secular society and religious > > society are beginning to come upon, what the Hatcher's so elequantly > > wrote about, that religion is inseparable from science, they are married > > interwoven in the foundation. (I am not saying there are not appropriate > > manmade separations, in man's need for efficiency and specialization > > one needs to make artificial separations all the time, but if you look > > at Shoghi Effendi's writings on the Assemblies and Houses of Justice, > > and Abdul Baha's on schools, you can clearly see, that at the foundation > > level, religion and state are complimentary, and that the Local House of > > Justice, and Baha'i School are the foundation institutions of the New > > World Order state. > > All the best! > > > > > > > Your post seems to me to be ladened with the anti-intellectualism that > > > > > has become characteristic of the thinking of many Baha'is. Your > > > > > conclusions don't appear to me to be supported by the Baha'i Writings. > > > > > > > > > > Given modern religious history, since the 1600s really, Western > > > > > secularism has quite rightly that the separation of religion from > > > > > the state is in everyone's best interest. > > > > > > > > > > The Baha'i Faith has yet sufficiently to prove otherwise. > > > > > > > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:09:55 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:56:16 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA00925; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:01:45 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:01:44 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #6 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855490325.235@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:12:05 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 3599 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] From: "Rick Boatright" Organization: Topeka Business Computers To: Frederick Glaysher <@MOA.net> Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:13:19 -0600 Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) Reply-to: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: srb-mods@bcca.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.31) X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Dear Frederick, A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment this for private email. Rick Boatright co-moderator soc.religion.bahai > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > From: FG <@MOA.net> > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > To: karl1971@aol.com > Cc: @MOA.net > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > [clip] > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > make love, not war. > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > or her life. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > daughter-in-law. > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > loathsome addiction. > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > -- Karl > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > veins.... > > -- > Frederick Glaysher > Rochester, Michigan USA > -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:09:58 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:56:19 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA00930; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:01:48 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:01:47 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #7 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855490486.275@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:14:46 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1341 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:07:05 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171601.KAA08931@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > A real, true _question_. Did you mean for this to go out to the > newsgroup? The humor is apparent, the advice is probebly reasonable, > but I am forced to wonder if you really ment the post to go to the > newsgroup. It seems too susceptable to te kind of mis-interpretation > that gets rwars started..... I therefore suspect that you ment > this for private email. > > Rick Boatright > co-moderator > soc.religion.bahai > You "suspect" incorrectly. I certainly intended for my message to be posted. I'd appreciate if you'd act as a moderator and not a censor. I find you're interfering in my communication offensive. Post it. -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:10:01 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:56:23 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA00936; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:01:52 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:01:50 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #8 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855490652.317@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:17:33 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 4839 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] >From - Tue Nov 19 04:56:35 1996 Received: from glaysher.library (204.38.255.39) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:02:27 -0500 Message-ID: <32905FF7.25F8@moa.net> Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:09:11 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Richard C. Detweiler" CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) References: <199611171607.JAA22964@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Richard C. Detweiler wrote: > > Not suitable for the group. Tell hi mto take it to e-mail. > > Dick D. > Dick, I mean this in all seriousness. You're a fascist pig. I'd say that to your face, fellow.... > > From news@news2.acs.oakland.edu Sun Nov 17 07:43:51 1996 > > Received: from bcca.org (root@bounty.bcca.org [208.133.44.40]) by primenet.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id HAA12476 for ; Sun, 17 Nov 1 > > Received: from relay6.UU.NET by bcca.org with smtp > > (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vP8Rl-0008esC; Sun, 17 Nov 96 09:43 EST > > Received: from news2.acs.oakland.edu by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP > > (peer crosschecked as: news2.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.152]) > > id QQbqfq06145; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:44 -0500 (EST) > > Received: (from news@localhost) by news2.acs.oakland.edu (8.7.6/8.7.4) id JAA19072; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:43:51 -0500 > > To: soc-religion-bahai@uunet.uu.net > > Path: ppp-pm01-dy-29.ouhub.moa.net > > From: FG <@MOA.net> > > Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai > > Subject: Re: The Integrity of Bahai Marriage (revised) > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 09:45:16 -0500 > > Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan, U.S.A. > > Lines: 53 > > Message-ID: <328F24FC.253@moa.net> > > References: <"uiWV9.A.DUF.dSkjy"@bounty> > > NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.moa.net > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) > > To: karl1971@aol.com > > CC: @MOA.net > > > > karl1971@aol.com wrote: > > > [clip] > > > > > The believers of Baha'u'llah have a Faith of integrity. Unlike the world > > > that's falling apart around us, the ones who who believe in Baha'u'llah > > > make love, not war. > > > > > > One of the most important ways we do this is by fulfilling a legitimate > > > quest to marry, always confident each and everyone of us has the potential > > > to be a partner of a beautiful spiritual match made in heaven. > > > > > > In a Bahai Marriage: > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a partner with patience, who believes in dreams, > > > justice, miracles, and aspirations who will spend every one of his or her > > > most physically intimate moments with one and only one for the rest of his > > > or her life. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world where every father and mother is > > > completely satisfied with who they have for a son-in-law or > > > daughter-in-law. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a fellow beauty of the opposite sex who respects > > > his or her body and doesn't smoke dope or drink booze or have some > > > loathsome addiction. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than someone who always had high standards of > > > justice, integrity, dignity, and morality, and has always been sensitive > > > and intelligent, even having been raised among sick people and having gone > > > through hell in a handbasket. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than beautiful love making experiences with standards > > > of integrity that free us from the shackles of a promiscuous world. > > > > > > We seek nothing less than a world full of pairs of men and women of good > > > taste who legitimately receive and satisfy each other's desires for > > > sensual affection. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- sincerely > > > > > > -- Karl > > > > > > Karl, man to man, you need to get married! Let me give you a little unsolicited > > advice, if you don't mind. Don't choose one of these half-dead Baha'i women, the > > self-righteous zealot type. Find a real woman with some blood flowing through her > > veins.... > > > > -- > > Frederick Glaysher > > Rochester, Michigan USA > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- https://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From - Sun Feb 09 08:10:12 1997 Received: from grunt.dejanews.com (205.238.157.87) by atlas.moa.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:56:29 -0500 Received: (from dopost@localhost) by grunt.dejanews.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA00940; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:01:56 -0600 Path: grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 07:01:54 -0600 From: @moa.net Subject: Censored S.R.Bahai #9 Newsgroups: news.groups Message-Id: <855490817.361@dejanews.com> Reply-To: @moa.net Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service To: @moa.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Feb 09 12:20:17 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 204.38.255.47 (ppp-pm01-dy-15.ouhub.moa.net) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0Gold (Win95; U) X-Authenticated-Sender: @moa.net X-Mozilla-Status: 0005 Content-Length: 1945 [This is a courtesy copy of an article posted to Usenet via Deja News] Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:35:36 -0500 From: FG <@moa.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: boatright@cjnetworks.com CC: @MOA.net Subject: Re: Incredibly Disillusioned with the Baha'i Community References: <199611181639.KAA16177@topeka.cjnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0015 Rick Boatright wrote: > > Dear Frederick, > > I was trying to say two unrelated things. > > First, that was a really nice message. Well thought, cohesive, good > writing, I was trying to give you a compliment. > I don't need nor want your unsolicted editorial comments BIG BROTHER. I want the freedom to speak the conscience God has given me and the freedom to be responded to by OTHERS' unconstrained consciences. Stay out of the way. > Second, I was expressing my gratitude that the conflict between you > and the moderators a couple of weeks ago did not result in your > leaving the newsgroup. I appriciate your continued participation. > I feel nothing but contempt for the way you and Richard Detweiler have handled my postings. Make no mistake in that regard. Neither one of you, or anybody, has the prescience to exercise such power and control over others' consciences. The abuse of your power is a proper subject for discussion on the newsgroup. > > Rick Boatright wrote: > > > > > > Really nice message. Good work. Thanks for hanging in there with > > > us Frederick. I really appriciate it. > > > > > > Rick Boatright > > > > > > > Frankly, I don't know what you mean here. > > > > -- Frederick Glaysher Rochester, Michigan USA